#grrm blog post said it all

[coffeebooksrain18]

The way TB must have been having the tantrum of their life when GrrM said.

"Helaena was loved by the small folk., and Rhaenyra was not"

Like sorry that you upset, but the Author said what he said, you can't be upset, it's his story he knows how it goes.

[coffeebooksrain18]

GrrM said what he said, and he meant what he said. Get over it TB, he won't change his mind just cause you throw your tantrums and throw your phones. He's the author, not you, not HBO, and most definitely not fucking Ryan Condal or Sara Hess!

King Aegon

Queen Helaena

Rhaenyra

*that’s it that’s the post*

[maglors-grief]

I hate that people are using GRRM's blog post as proof that the smallfolk have always hated Rhaenyra and only cared for Helaena. Like tell me you didn't read the entire book without telling me you didn't read the entire book.

They act as if her nickname "The Realm's Delight" came out of nowhere or they believe the show's version of it where the smallfolk use it as a mockery against her. There were smallfolk calling out for Rhaenyra during Aegon II's coronation. The smallfolk welcomed Rhaenyra back with open arms when she arrived in King's Landing during the war because they disliked Aegon II and Aemond. It's said in the book that the smallfolk were only so quick to believe the rumors that Rhaenyra was behind Helaena's death because they had already turned against her after she raised taxes on them because the Greens left the treasury empty.

Yes they loved Helaena but do I think that they still would have rebelled against Rhaenyra after Helaena's death if she didn't raise taxes on them? No.

Saying that Helaena is remembered fondly while Rhaenyra isn't is so wild to me. Propaganda was heavily used against Rhaenyra. Her son may have sat the throne after the war but he was surrounded by Green supporters and men who did not want history to remember Rhaenyra fondly.

It's easy to love a person who did nothing during the war (no shade to Helaena). It's easy to point out all the bad things Rhaenyra did when compared to somebody who barely did anything during the story. What can the smallfolk blame Helaena for? She neither did anything good nor bad. She was just there. Rhaenyra was leading a war and had to do things that made her unlikable. The Greens left King's Landing a wreck and Rhaenyra paid the price for it.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Is there a comprehensive list of actors GRRM cites as faceclaims or is it all in disparate blog posts?

Most of it isn't in blog posts at all, it's things GRRM's said at conventions or interviews. (Note for anyone going "Them, really?", check the dates and what the actor looked like at the time.)

So, a quick list:

Sandor Clegane: Ron Perlman

Cersei Lannister: Nicole Kidman

Jaime Lannister: Cary Elwes

Tyrion Lannister: Peter Dinklage

Tywin Lannister: Kurtwood Smith or Robert Duvall

Renly Baratheon: Adrian Paul (also for young Robert)

Arianne Martell: Apollonia Kotero

Nymeria Sand: Janina Gavankar

Daenerys Targaryen: Tamzin Merchant

And sources:

November 2000, fan con report: "Pearlman, from BEAUTY AND THE BEAST, would be great for Sandor. Best guy for Tywin: the father on THAT 70s SHOW and who was the father of the kid, who shot himself, in THE DEAD POETS SOCIETY (I think I spelled it all right)."

December 2003: "...I have a few people in mind. I think Nicole Kidman would be good as Cersei. I always liked Ron Perlman, the actor I worked with on 'The Beauty and the Beast’. He would be great as Sandor Clegane. Ron is very good in heavy make-up and he’s also a big, strong kind of guy. He has a great voice that he can do all sorts of wonderful things with. I think he would be terrific as the Hound. For Jamie Lannister, a couple of years ago I would have said Cary Elwes but he might be too old now. I don’t know…"

c. 2006: "Myself, I'd love to see Tywin played by Kurtwood Smith (as in DEAD POET'S SOCIETY) or Robert Duvall (THE GREAT SANTINI)."

July 2006, fan con report: "On being asked about "the casting game" (picking actors to play the characters), he said the only one who he would definitely choose was Ron Perlman to play Sandor "The Hound" Clegane because of Perlman's aptitude for acting through prosthetics."

February 2007, fan con report: "When asked about ideal casting choices, he formally endorsed the idea of Nicole Kidman playing Cersei. He says she has the perfect look for her. But it would never work, because where are you going to find a guy that looks like her to play Jaime? I really got a kick out of that. He also said Ron Perelman would be perfect as the Hound -- but I am pretty sure I had hears or read that somewhere before."

date/source uncertain, but c. 2007: "Adrian Paul and I actually worked together once, long before the Dreamsongs audiobook. Wonder if he remembers. Back then he had a great look for Renly…but of course, that was twenty years ago."

February 2008: "Much as I *cough* admire Salma Hayek, I picture Arianne as looking more like Appollonia Kotero, as she was around the time of PURPLE RAIN."

November 2008, Elio Garcia: "George has said in the past that Adrian Paul is Baratheonish in looks (years ago he said he could see him for a young Robert or Renly)"

May 2009: "Playing Tyrion Lannister will be Peter Dinklage, who was almost everyone's "dream casting" for the role (he certainly was mine)."

August 2009: "I know my readers play the casting game. Well, confession time, so do I. Ever since I began A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE (way back in 1991, thought it wasn't until 1994 that I got writing in earnest), there was always a little part of me that would watch every television show and movie with one eye looking for actors and actresses who might work as my characters.

And so there I was, watching THE TUDORS (which I have VERY mixed feelings about, I confess), when Tamzin Merchant came on screen as the fifteen year old Katherine Howard, Henry VIII's fifth wife. I sat up at once, thinking, "Hmmm, she could be a good candidate for Dany.""

July 2011, Janina Gavankar: "George just told me I look like Lady Nymeria." (additional link 1) (link 2)

[queenvhagar]

People like "he should have dealt with this behind closed doors and just said this directly to HBO and Ryan Condal" y'all really think he didn't and somehow this is the first time they're hearing all of this? He tried telling them his perspective and they said okay go away old man we know how to make and sell TV. This blog post was his last resort to try to influence the adaptation of his work and that is something that we should be critical of Max for, not GRRM. A multi-million dollar corporation is taking control of an author's life work and destroying its integrity and reputation for the second time now, and the execs and writers don't really care what he has been saying behind closed doors and in meetings. The bad writing this season is obvious evidence of GRRM's lack of input on the process.

[kellyvela]

So I’m sure you’ve seen the discourse between Dany and Sansa stans on the Twitter timeline … but I’ve just come across something new that I hadn’t seen before ??? From a Sansa anti ofc, but it was a blog post from GRRM where someone said Sansa isn’t a Stark anymore/less of a Stark since she lost her direwolf and GRRM responds with “that’s a very astute observation” with a coy smile (I didn’t look at it for long so I’m unsure of the exact wording). Anyway I find it hard to believe that THIS is what Sansa antis are clinging to when there is so much in text to connect Sansa to her indentity, not to mention him listing her amongst his main characters ? Do they just ignore all those interviews ? Do they not read her chapters?

Calm down! That's not from any GRRM Not A Blog, that's from a *FAN REPORT* that clearly isn't a fan of Sansa.

This is the *FAN REPORT* in question:

OCTOBER 05, 2001 ARCHON MEETING (OCTOBER 5-7) In regards to the conversation about the dire wolves and the Starks the point was made (I forget by whom) that Lady was dead and Sansa still alive to which I replied that Sansa wasn't really much of a Stark anymore. IIRC (this is a little hazy), at this point GRRM kind of leaned back in his chair, smiled and said something to the effect of "A very astute observation." (Note: I was hoping someone else would bring this up as I didn't want to do any hornblowing... since Terra brought it up, but didn't recall the wording I felt the need. If anyone remembers his words differently I'll gladly recant.) [Source]

The "IIRC (If I remember correctly)," "this is a bit lazy," and, "didn't recall the wording," should be enough to know that this is more like a wishful thinking, or another Alan Taylor case, and not what actually happened, not what GRRM actually said. In summary, this is not a reliable source.

Here's another *FAN REPORT* (the fan called Terra that the previous one mentioned) from the same event:

OCTOBER 05, 2001 ARCHON MEETING (OCTOBER 5-7) [Note: Edited for brevity,] (...) 7. Short discussion on the significance of the wolf to the Stark kids. Martin made a rather assertative comment about the significance of Lady's absence in Sansa's life. Though I can't recall the exact wording. (...) [Source]

Again, the "I can't recall the exact wording" should be enough to know that this is not a reliable source.

It is really curious that NO ONE that attended that event remember what GRRM exactly said regarding Sansa and her direwolf Lady . . . . Collective amnesia, maybe???

If you are interested in GRRM's quotes about Sansa Stark and the og sources (so you can decide how reliable they are), here's a compilation:

Hope this helps!

[melrosing]

(from my rando's POV) GRRM feels a bit like he's in a Lucy-with-the-football situation—a non-insignificant part of S2 was filmed w/o writers due to the strike, was two episodes short prob b/c of said strike, and the HBO-Disney megazord doesn't pick showrunners of franchise shows for their creative talent or desire to honor the material, they pick them for their ability to Get Stuff Done In A Profitable Manner, so. Idk, I dunno what he was expecting with S2?

(this isn't saying S2 crit is invalid or that he shouldn't be upset, but some of this WAS foreseeable? Maybe I'm missing something)

idk I have seen amazing HBO adaptations (personal faves inc. My Brilliant Friend, Patrick Melrose, etc) so I think GRRM could well have had high expectations the second time round. and I do think S1 was good; there were parts I didn't like, but I would say more of it I did. they navigated most of the changes pretty gracefully, and I was a huge fan of the change they made to Alicent and Rhaenyra's relationship.

so I don't know why they fumbled S2 so badly. I found watching Alicent and Rhaenyra this season a lot like watching Tyrion in S5 onwards - they're so stagnant, they keep repeating the same things over and over, they're never truly unlikeable and they always mean well.... like strike or not I thought they were setting up for something so much more interesting in S1, but by S2 the writers just seemed to lose courage and started walking back their most interesting work. even with the strike and HBO hacking the tail of their season off, it feels like they didn't even know how to fill the time they had left.

i know GRRM's blog post specifically concerns butterfly effects rather than the execution of what did make it to the show, but I think the absence of characters like Maelor is plainer for the uninspired writing on Helaena in the rest of the season. in S1 they were taking the gaps in F&B and filling them with interesting detail, so I think then it was easy for GRRM to forgive compromises he didn't like. now HOTD is tearing gaps in itself and expects everyone to ignore them, so omissions like Maelor feel more egregious to him, bc at least they add SOMETHING.

i do feel kind of confused on what to feel now though. on the one hand it is hilarious to me that GRRM was this messy, otoh the haterism is so strong in fandom that im.... genuinely a little worried for the writing team lol. im starting to think the biggest problem they faced with this show was the scale. they were trying to write something good but i get the impression that the focus ended up being more on budget and logistics than the story itself. i don't think that's an excuse for everything but i do think if i were them i would feel extremely demoralised and defensive rn. and after all it's not really a sin to write mid tv

[novaursa]

Since this whole "debate" started with the team Black and Rhaenyra supporter who is calling me names and is telling me how I know nothing of "Fire and Blood" and how that world operates, I would like to ask my followers: do you guys have that impression when you are reading my works? Do I know nothing about this subject matter?

I'm curious.

And let me get one thing straight: I'm not "team Black" or "team Green". Those who are familiar with my blog know this.

The facts are how Viserys was largely to blame for the Dance (which is more complex than Rhaenrya being the rightful heir because her daddy said so - like that person claimed) and Rhaenyra is called "the usurper" because she lost the war and victor wrote the history. (Her allies calling her victorious after her death doesn't count, as she is still killed and her House's future will continue to deteriorate with her blood on the throne.) Viserys broke the laws of the realm and failed to set up the new ones that would recognize his daughter as the rightful heir. (Which was the point of that person's post and they think how I've missed that, I didn't. They missed my point. Rhaenyra still falls under the "usurper" category becouse of Viserys. Her "rightful claim" is questionable to lords who supported the law that weak Viserys refused to address. The very same lords that held the power of the whole realm together at that moment.) Rhaenyra's and Aegon's war for succession destroyed their own House and their dragons. Lifing Rhaenyra into heavens doesn't absolve her of horrible things she did, or how bad she was at ruling. It was ultimately Rhaenyra's line and blood that led its own House towards its downfall. This is a fact.

And I'm going to stop here, because debating that person is pointless when they are concentrated on only Rhaenyra's claim and nothing else surrounding it, and insulting me obviously.

Rhaenyra's right to the Iron Throne is not that simple and there are more factors to it than a simple decree of the desperate king. And kings can't do whatever they want, there are consequences. Yes, even for Targaryens.

The show downplayed all of it.

I'm also stitching this again as I agree with everything this person wrote and I'm not keen on writing something that long on my phone:

I also agree with this, and apparently that makes me a misogynist according to Rhaenyra apologist (good to know, even though GRRM made the rules of Westeros and created this whole damn fantasy world where women are treated like shit):

My only fault was my own laziness and unwillingness to defend my case against "pro-team Black" person properly. The first response this person posted, which was insulting and clearly aimed to provoke, made me just provoked back with quick Rhaenyra "pro-Green" facts (that have a lot of truth in them).

I'm off to fight a windmill now, as I have no intention to debate "pro-team" anything. I would soon have better conversation with a said windmill.

[alicentflorent]

the amount of cope I'm seeing from that fandom about helaena since the blog post is so entertaining. reading comprehension is dead because they'll try to argue that helaena was only popular because of "a missing treasury" and rhaenyras taxes when no that's not what george wrote! grrm pointing out helaena was a "sweet and gentle soul" was not accidental - its clear that he intended her being well liked because of this!! it had nothing to do with rhaenyra herself being in a shitty position.

furthermore when it comes to helaena & rhaenyra it makes a lot of sense - helaena has lived in KL her entire life. rhaenyra on the other hand has been away on dragonstone. with the timeline being different it was even longer - about 9 years (120-129).

it's so annoying because rhaenyra has other things going for her but that lot is determined to take this from her sister

like lmafo alicent girlies are even half as mad about alicents own popularity among the smallfolk not being a thing as tb are mad about grrm confirming this about helaena. because in fire & blood grrm wrote that alicent was "beloved of the smallfolk" i can definitely see that starting off as alicent being genuinely compassionate and kind hearted like helaena in the early youth of her queenship (remember this is the woman who looked after a dying jaehaerys with great tenderness) and then maturing into more calculating as she began to see that smallfolk favor could be vital given the situation with rhaenyra and aegon. but nor do I think it was all calculation and pr - I think alicent having genuine care adds more depth to her character in that no was she a sweet woman who was the soul of gentleness? no, she could be capable of cruelty but at the same time there was a side of her that made her naturally do well with the smallfolk

This!! Helaena died as a sweet young woman, her story is tragic because she was genuinely a kind person and I always imagined she was seen the way people saw princess Diana. It’s never mentioned how much she interacted with the smallfolk but I just imagine she had this natural warm, kind, loving way about her which is why she is always called “sweet”.

As for Alicent, I imagine she had some genuine care early on like you said but I imagine she was like show!margaery, she probably did charity and won the people over with her charm and charisma (she must have been charismatic, intelligent and likeable if viserys fell for her and the men on the green council respected her) and she knew how to play the game, she knew how to win over smallfolk and nobles alike. Even Rhaenyra who may not have been well liked as queen, during the destruction of war by dragon fire, was known as the realms delight, the people loved her once and she always had lots of friends and ladies around her. Alicent and Rhaenyra got more ruthless and cutthroat with age when they were women and mothers trying to protect themselves and their children and the deaths of their innocent children/grandchildren pushed them over the edge and brought out their darkest sides.

[agentrouka-blog]

Have you read the last post of GRRM in Not A Blog? He wrote this:

That was all back in 2022, but very little has changed since then.   If anything, things have gotten worse.   Everywhere you look, there are more screenwriters and producers eager to take great stories and “make them their own.”   It does not seem to matter whether the source material was written by Stan Lee, Charles Dickens, Ian Fleming, Roald Dahl, Ursula K. Le Guin, J.R.R. Tolkien, Mark Twain, Raymond Chandler, Jane Austen, or… well, anyone.   No matter how major a writer it is, no matter how great the book, there always seems to be someone on hand who thinks he can do better, eager to take the story and “improve” on it.   “The book is the book, the film is the film,” they will tell you, as if they were saying something profound.   Then they make the story their own. They never make it better, though.   Nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they make it worse. Once in a while, though, we do get a really good adaptation of a really good book, and when that happens , it deserves applause. I can came across one of those instances recently, when I binged the new FX version of SHOGUN.

Seems he is pissed at HBO?

Yeah, he was good at pretending he didn't mind the changes in GOT, but I remember reading that before the series, he had a lot of people come to him and propose how they would adapt the books, sometimes only focusing in Jon, or Dany, and he didn't like those ideas because they weren't taking into account they were not the only main characters. He was also against adapting his books because he knew the technology wasn't good and wouldn't be a good production.

With GOT, he defended the differences, but in the latest post you can read between the lines how dissappointed he was with the adaptation of his books.

I mean, he could have said that before SHOGUN he was fine with GOT (or HOTD), right? I imagine he doesn't mention them because... well, he prefers to be part of the writers and try to save some of his ideas, and you want to have a good environment, is better if you don't criticize them, right?

Whoa. That is not a subtle dig, isn't it?

He makes no mention of HOTD or GOT but the sheer omission itself seems incredibly damning to me.

[darklinaforever]

Targaryen antis might try to make claims about their inherent role as antagonists while denying every subsequent piece of textual and logical evidence that proves them wrong

Mainly, that GRRM who has been working for over a decade to finish the main series now, would spend his time (even if it was written linear to Winds of Winter) writing a villain origin story not for the Others but for the Targs is - well, a bizarre fool's errand?

As opposed to the reality that he wrote this entire history in support of his protagonists (Jon & Dany) who are both foils of their ancestors and fulfillers of his series' main storyline (and imo prophecy). The fact that George consistently parallels the fall of the dragons and the fall of the Night's Watch because they are both detrimental to the fight against the Long Night. That Aegon I modeled the King's Guard vows after the Night's Watch's. Aegon supported the Night's Watch and later Alyssane and Jaehaerys had a very impactful experience visiting the wall and showed even greater support. The New Gift was no trivial patronage it was actually a great contribution to the wall. It isn't until after the Dance and death of the dragons that we see a major decline in support of the NW. However, the Targs had their focus on reviving the dragons at that time. Still after that, Bloodraven goes to the wall and becomes Lord Commander, again no doubt on the importance of his character to the story. Or that Jon would become Lord Commander. All this to say it is almost impossible to say that the Targaryens are not important protags, if not vital, to the endgame of the plot. Why would George make the "villains" the heroes in the end, as much as he loves to twist tropes and exploit loopholes, it just doesn't logically ad up. The fanatical Targaryens obviously commit heinous acts and some of them come to tragic ends for their fascination with the prophecy of ice and fire but if it was just a tool to show their fallacy ... why would George continue to write it so emphatically across the series?

The antis hate it and they can continue to cry about it but George has never supported their beliefs. If we ever see A Dream of Spring I have no doubt this will all be made clear. Even in his latest dragon related blog post I believe we will have more evidence in Winds of Winter as well.

As I have always said, the antis have no form of logic.

[coffeebooksrain18]

The way I've seen people say shit like "well he's entitled to his Headcanon I guess." As they're talking about GrrM as he talks about HIS STORY! Like it's not a Headcanon my guy, it's the author telling you the facts. You don't need to like it, but that doesn't change the facts.

[greenhikingboots]

Jon’s Pre-Canon Crush

Okay, Jonsa fam. I’ve seen a lot of great posts, especially in the last few months, about Jon’s reactions to Val. Among them, there’s one particular vein I like to assume everyone loves as much as I do. That is, when Jon thinks of Val’s hair as silver vs. when he thinks of it as the color of dark honey. You’ve seen those metas, right? They explain the likelihood of Jon’s future connection to Dany being negative — The air tastes cold. / My tongue is too numb to tell. All I taste is cold. — while his future connection to Sansa will be positive — It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

Well, in this post I want to expand on the angle of Val-is-sometimes-a-stand-in-for-Sansa. Only, I don’t want to speculate on what will happen between Jon and Sansa in the future, if we ever get GRRM’s last two books. Enough people have already done that, and they’ve done it so wonderfully that I have little to add. Instead, as the title of this post says, I want to focus on Jon’s pre-canon crush. More specifically: I want to focus on what Jon’s thoughts and feelings about Val say about his thoughts and feelings about Sansa.

But let me lay some groundwork first, okay? Until a few weeks ago, I went back and forth on pre-canon crush theories. I agreed they held a lot of potential and were a lot of fun to daydream about — a great premise for a one-shot, to be sure! Oh, and I’ve always loved it when people said things like, “Hey, Jon, your Targaryen is showing.” That’s classic stuff. But did I really think GRRM meant to hint at prior feelings rather than just laying a foundation for future feelings? Again, until a few weeks ago, I wasn’t totally convinced either way. But now I am fully committed to the Pre-Canon Crush Camp, assigned to cabin Jon-Had-Feelings-for-Sansa. [Did Sansa have feelings for Jon too? Ummm maybe? I think there’s some evidence to support that, but not as much. But, hey, that’s not the point of this post. Sorry. Moving on.] So what changed? Well, basically some ideas I’d previously had sunk in on a deeper level. It started with this post from @sherlokiness. It talks about GRRM commenting on a discrepancy in the books, two occasions where Jeyne Westerling’s physical descriptions do not match up. GRRM said the discrepancies were a mistake, a really unfortunate one because it distracts from the times when he intentionally included discrepancies of physical appearances. And basically us Jonsas loved it. Like, “Yep! Make sense! We assumed as much already, Mr. Martin.” And that’s because of the canon line mentioned earlier, right? You know the whole thing, don’t you? Oh, but you want me to quote it here anyway? Okay, fine, I’ll oblige.

They [Ghost and Val] look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white [bleh, bleh, bleh] …but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

Direwolf. Lots of white. Suspicious ellipses. Blue eyes. Long braid the color of dark honey. Right, okay, got it.  [BTW. Did you know there’s also a point, early on, where Val’s described as having high cheekbones? You know, a feature Sansa has as well!?!?] Anyway, when I saw sherlokiness’s post about GRRM’s comments and the Jonsas relating it to that canon scene with Ghost and Val, I reblogged it. Naturally. And in the tags I said something like, “I’ll have to double check but I’m pretty sure the willowy creature line comes after this line. As in, maybe Jon knew exactly who Val reminded him in that moment and he was trying to talk himself out of his pre-canon crush coming back to the surface.” I’m paraphrasing here. My tags were probably not as clear as that. Also, I was being a bit facetious. It was a thought I’d had before, but just a passing one. Again (AGAIN! Do I say that too much?), I’d been going back and forth about pre-canon crush theories for a long time. But @agentrouka-blog saw my tags and was like, “You might be onto something there.” And then @zimshan saw my tags too and did the double check for me. Thanks! And guess what? GUESS WHAT, JONSA FAM!? I was right about the order. First, Jon sees Ghost and Val, thinks her eyes are blue and her hair is like dark honey, and it is a lovely sight. Second, this line:

Val looked the part [of a princess] and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

But guess what else? The order isn’t even the most striking thing. The most striking thing is how closely these two lines appear to one another — within just a few pages!!! That's what zimshan said. So I went back to read it myself. Not just the two lines to check the order, but a little before, and a little after, and everything in between. If you want, you can do the same. It’s ADWD Jon XI.

Want to know what stuck out to me most? The willowy creature line actually seems… so odd, and out of place, and unnecessary. I swear to you. Let me try to explain.

Basically, by that point in the chapter, Jon has already clearly established his take on Val. She’s beautiful, everyone knows it, but she’s more than that. She’s strong and capable. She found Tormund and brought him back to Castle Black when Jon’s Night’s Watch Rangers couldn’t manage it. Like, Jon’s thankful for Val, okay? 

Oh, and he also seems aware that he holds her in higher regard than the rest of the men who keep calling her a princess even though she’s not one. I think he feels smug about it, to be honest. Like, he wouldn’t use these words because it’s ASOIAF, but he knows he’s a budding feminist and he’s proud of himself for it. Like, “I’m so much better than these asshats who don’t respect women and think all Val has to offer is her pretty face.”

How great is that? I love book Jon so much.

Where was I, though? Oh! Oh, oh, oh! This next part is key. Up until the willowy creature line, Jon has not had a single disparaging thought about Val. Val being cruel about Shireen’s greyscale hasn’t happened yet. But for some reason — *Getting too executed. Brain malfunctioning!*

AH! I SWEAR JONSA FAM! If you read the willowy creature in fuller context, it comes across as if Jon’s correcting himself for having a disparaging thought about Val, like he’s reminding himself of who she truly is. She’s a warrior princess, not a willowy creature. But like, why? Why does Jon feel the need to do this? He hasn’t had a disparaging thought about Val, so why correct himself as if he has?

Just because she’s beautiful? Just because he’s tired of other men calling her a princess? I mean, I guess that could be the whole story. That’s certainly how we’re supposed to take it, if we’re taking it at face value. But I’m not convinced. Go read it again, and I think you’ll see that when the willowy creature line happens, it actually feels like a weird logic leap.

The dots aren’t connecting because one dot is missing!!!! Let me put a pin in that for a moment while I turn to other mini metas in our Jonsa fandom. Antis like to say, “Jon doesn’t like girls like Sansa. He doesn't like willowy creatures, he said so himself.” But we know that’s crap, right? The boy who liked Ygritte’s gentle side? The boy who helps Alys Karstark by marrying her to Sigorn? The boy who dreamed his mother was a highborn lady with kind eyes? The boy who wanted to show his hypothetical wife Winterfell’s glass gardens and bath with her in the hot pools?

Yeah, that boy is a budding feminist, like I said.

So again I ask (AGAIN!) why would Jon — who is not especially critical of women in general and has not been critical of Val at all up to this point — feel the need to correct himself by thinking this critical thing about willowy creatures? In other words, why does he lift up Val by putting down some vague idea of other women he’s never had a problem with before?

Well, obviously it turns out that I believe my facetious, tongue in cheek tags more than I realized when I wrote them. My position is that somewhere in the two pages between ...a long while since Jon had seen a sight so lovely… and ...not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair… Jon realized Val reminded him of Sansa, he felt guilty and ashamed about it, and then felt the need to do damage control. And because guilt and shame are icky, confusing feelings, his damage control took the form of being critical of Sansa even though he isn’t normally critical of such women. 

Am I making sense? How do I explain myself further? Like, why am I so stuck on this idea Jon’s willowy creature line being two pages after the Ghost and Val looking lovely together line must mean Jon had a pre-canon crush?

I think the crux is what I said about the willowy creature line feeling like a weird logic leap — like the dots aren’t connecting because one is missing. The missing dot is Jon being aware that he’s mentally swapped Val with Sansa. He just doesn’t acknowledge this on the page.

Let me be extra clear. I’m now differing from several others who have written about pre-canon crush theories in that I think Jon was aware of his crush. I’ve seen many say it’s all subconscious. But this stuff with Val makes me think otherwise.

I mean, I know Jon has a pattern of dissociation. For him, thinking, and speaking, and acting from his subconsciousness is a common occurrence. So, yes, he could have subconsciously thought Val looked like Sansa and subconsciously felt guilty and ashamed and therefore subconsciously decided to do damage control by subconsciously reminding himself Val is a warrior princess and therefore not a willowy creature.

But I think GRRM was hinting at an exception to Jon’s pattern with these canon lines. Because if the first part is happening subconsciously — Jon thinking Val looks like Sansa and that it’s a lovely sight — then he wouldn’t feel the need to do damage control afterwards? If he wasn’t aware of thinking of Sansa in that moment, isn’t it more likely he’d just carry on with taking Val to meet Selyse, and the odd, out of place, unnecessary line about a willowy creature wouldn’t have been included? What else, what else?

I said earlier that I think Jon’s crush is an innocent, not sexual thing. Let me expand on that. And uuuuuhhhhh... let me clarify that I think that might be changing some over time.  My guess is when Jon was younger, his thoughts were more along these lines: “Sansa is pretty, and a proper lady, and everything men are taught to want. She’ll be a good wife for someone someday. Obviously not me. That’s sinful, I don’t want it, and I’m a bastard so I can’t marry a highborn lady anyway. But objectively, Sansa’s a good catch.” Which kinda matches how Jon thinks of Val at times, right? Like, she’s a catch but he doesn’t want her. He’s not taking Winterfell and a Wife because Winterfell belongs to Sansa and he’s a man of the Night’s Watch, dammit! But hang on a second. Sometimes Jon’s thoughts about Val are more elicit, aren’t they? He thinks about the size of her breasts and she’s the hypothetical wife he pictures romancing in Winterfell. Don’t worry, I’m not saying I’m secretly a Jon/Val shipper. What I’m getting at is this other thing we’ve talked about in the Jonsa fandom. Jone projects his general desires onto Val. He’s getting older. He’s unhappy at the Wall. Winterfell isn’t Robb’s like he thought it would be, and Bran and Rickon are thought to be dead. And Stannis is offering Winterfell and Val to him. Plus he’s now been intimate with a woman, Ygritte. So he knows that sex feels nice. All in all, Jon’s becoming more in tune with wanting Winterfell, and a wife, and a family, and wanting to fu—

You get the idea. ;)

Soooooo. If you buy into the premise that A) Jon considered Sansa a good catch when they were younger B) He’s thinking more and more about romance and sex C) Val is also a good catch and easy to project feelings onto and D) Woopsies, Val just reminded me of Sansa! Well, then where does all that leave Jon? Feeling like he needs to distance himself from positive thoughts about Sansa, right? But without ever thinking her name because of his pattern of dissociation and because GRRM is tricky like that.  Am I making my point clearer, or just talking in circles?  Like, I know plenty of people have already said Val is a switch-back-and-forth-stand-in-for-other-characters. The first two short paragraphs of this post mentions those metas.  But holy smokes! If Jon is aware of A-D mentioned above, that adds a fascinating layer of subtext to his scenes with and thoughts about Val.  Let’s talk about it forever!

Just kidding. I think I’m almost done here.  Basically, I think the willowy creature line is Jon knowingly saying to himself, “Yikes, the thoughts I had about Sansa in the past didn’t bother me much because they were 99% innocent. But they are less innocent now and that’s a problem! You can’t like Sansa! Don’t confuse Sansa with Val,  dummy! Val is a warrior princess! Sansa is a willowy creature and willowy creatures are bad!”

Okay, sure, Jon.  Let me wrap up with one more canon line.

Of Sansa brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow.

We often link this line to Ygritte for obvious reasons, but I’m now in the habit of linking it more to Val and the canon lines mentioned previously. I think GRRM wrote a the three lines — a sight so lovely + willow creature + of Sansa brushing out Lady’s coat — as a subtle continuation of one another. Us Jonsas saw the potential for underlying romantic feelings in the last one, that’s nothing new. But I want to add that it’s a direct contrast to the willowy creature line. As Jon is bleeding out, he can no longer be bothered to put up a front and pretend he doesn’t have feelings for Sansa, feelings that have gotten more complicated as of late.

Oh so subtle. Really not that much different than what others have said before me. But different enough I wanted to mention it. Now someone put it in a fanfic!!

[kingsmoot]

I honestly feel so bad for Condal. When it was originally announced that S2 was getting cut from 10 episodes to 8 he protected HBO and framed it as a “creative decision” rather than an executive one. I also remember him saying that he was talking to GRRM during this time and that they were doing it for pacing/ the good of the story.

But with these later revelations about it being an executive decision to cut the episodes, as well as GRRM’s accusations about Condal lying to him, it’s become evident (to me) that he got stuck in the middle and was trying his best to reassure everyone. I doubt he intentionally lied to GRRM, but rather said a lot of things during this time that he was unable to follow through on for one reason or another. I’m sure Condal was more optimistic that they could save certain storylines in the (brief) time they had between the “cut off two episodes” directive and the writers strike, but despite dealing him a shitty hand, execs have still not supported him AT ALL.

Condal was doing everything he could to keep the problems with S2 internal, while simultaneously trying to bargain for better support moving forward (which still doesn’t seem to have manifested). AND, while rushing to condense the season, he was still meeting with GRRM and hearing his concerns and trying to assure him that they would find time for certain storylines in S3. Balancing all these expectations and requests was just not feasible and he over-promised during a very chaotic time- it’s not great, but it’s understandable. And all of this was done in service of protecting the production… as a showrunner SHOULD do.

It just makes me sad that so many people rip on Condal and want him to publicly “admit” to all his mistakes, as if he hasn’t intentionally made himself the punching bag already. We know he’s a GRRM superfan and that they worked closely together to get HotD started, but ultimately George isn’t the person that pays his wages or funds the show- Max is. Condal has responsibilities as the showrunner to protect the company he works for. But George doesn’t! So to use his platform to direct already angry fans at Condal+co instead of executives just… really isn’t it. I think he’ll have just made things worse.

this is a lot of speculation tbf but i am nodding along to the general vibe, here. particularly the last part about it being a swing and a miss to relentlessly go after condal in like a needling "this dude is on my shitlist forever" kind of way.

again, idt george said anything like... idk. egregious? his post really wasn't all that inflammatory. but to name ryan over and over again as being the dude he's got a bone to pick with while never mentioning the network or anyone else involved in the writing process is.... it's impolite. to say the very least. if i were ryan this blog post would not make me see the error of my ways and move heaven and earth to put maelor back into s3 as clunkily and awkwardly as i put daeron into s2. but even if it DID have that effect on ryan how much can he ACTUALLY do to steer the network? like it's not clear to me that ryan is calling all the shots. as you said it seems like the exact opposite is true. so why does he get all the blame?

my assumption would be it's because ryan is the person george spoke with the most one-on-one AND the person george feels he can point out publicly as a scapegoat for his dislike of season 2 without the people signing his royalty checks getting mad at him. and that's a shitty thing to do to ryan anyway.

[horizon-verizon]

I hope that GRRM actually speaks about Rhaenyra soon because this is just getting ridiculous. His blog post revealed nothing about his personal perspectives on her or her inner workings as a character. Like, are we forgetting that Daemon is his favorite character overall ??

Arguing with men that obviously see themselves in Aegon or Aemond with how defensive they get with you isn’t worth it, not even for the giggles.

I'd be fine if he never does and I doubt that he actually will since that post was deleted and him speaking about said post--even when we all know it existed and read it before and after he deleted it--bc I don't find it worth arguing with stupid men abt misogyny when they won't even admit the Dance is connected to Dany in re-affirming how sexism is both real and a substantial element of determining the course of history. I try to just tell them they are absurd and block them. Because it's believing-in-Brothel-Queens level of dumb.

In fact, I think we should just say that to guys like that from now on.

[blue-mint-winter]

Reading Fire and Blood: Rhaenyra Overthrown

Rhaenyra is reaping the consequences of taking bad advice from Celtigar and Mysaria. She lost Velaryons and the city is turned against her. The idea to tax people for children born out of wedlock was particularly deranged as it basically promotes infanticide on wide scale. And Celtigar knows that. Is he a demon? His previous advice at the start of the war was to burn King's Landing to the ground.

Helaena's suicide is a matter of much speculation. GRRM in his recent deleted blog post said that she killed herself because Mysaria revealed the truth about Maelor's death to her. I'm not sure if he wanted that version of the story to be the one they use in the show or it was his overall true, book version. I'm going to argue with that version though, because it doesn't make much sense to me. For all Helaena knows, one of her children, Jaehaera is still alive and safe. Same with all her brothers. Why would she kill herself after hearing only about Maelor's death? It would make more sense if she did it after losing all her children. Not to mention, what is even Mysaria's motive for sharing the news? Why would she want Helaena to kill herself, they have no personal history and Helaena's death harms Rhaenyra's cause. Mysaria's death after Rhaenyra leaves the city shows that Mysaria wasn't in league with Larys Strong who was behind the anti-Rhaenyra rumours that caused the riots. So, Mysaria didn't get anything out of driving Helaena to suicide.

Additionally, what suicidal person chooses to throw themselves on spikes? It's a painful and gruesome death. There are other, more common and less painful ways to kill yourself. Even if Helaena as a prisoner didn't have any sharp objects, so she couldn't slit her wrists, she could still probably make a rope from bedsheets and hang herself. Compare that with lady Caswell's suicide last chapter - as she hanged herself, she asked Ormund Hightower to spare her children - and it worked. Last reason against Helaena's suicide is the lack of suicide note.

The other theories - she killed herself because she was pregnant with a bastard or because she saw the hanging of Corlys' attempted rescuers (one could have been her lover?) - are rather farfetched. I don't think pregnancy would cause it, unless she was scared of Celtigar's new tax on bastards (lol). Helaena having a lover just has no basis in the text and there's no proof of any connection between her and the two hanged men.

The murder theory is the most probable in my opinion. Someone pushed Helaena out of that window, maybe Mysaria, maybe someone else. We know it wasn't Luthor Largent who had an alibi. Realistically, in the bad situation Rhaenyra got herself by losing Velaryons and all her dragonseeds, the best motive for Helaena's murder is freeing Dreamfyre to be claimed by a new dragonrider. The Blacks needed more dragons to defend the city besides Syrax and small Tyraxes. Dreamfyre is the second oldest dragon and she's large, she could fight Vermithor or Silverwing. Finding a new dragonrider would be problematic because of Rhaenyra's distrust of dragonseeds, however if it was Mysaria's plan all along, she might have been able to convince the queen to let her claim Dreamfyre. Mysaria had Rhaenyra's trust as her master of whisperers, additionally she might have learned more about claiming a dragon from Daemon and/or Nettles. Unfortunately for Mysaria, if this was her plan, it didn't work because of the riots and the killing of all dragons in the King's Landing.

The riots and the storming of Dragonpit felt apocalyptic. It was chaos, anarchy, pandemonium, madness. Rhaenyra watching it all from the roof, losing her son, seeing her reign crash and burn into ashes before her eyes. Great stuff.

Shepherd as the leader of religious fanatics is similar to High Sparrow. Both of them oppose the queen (Cersei/Rhaenyra). It seems that this part of the Dance gives clues to what might happen to Cersei when Aegon VI will march on King's Landing. I see a possible parallel between Helaena and Margaery - both are queens beloved by smallfolk. If Tommen dies, it could be similar to Joffrey Velaryon. Then the situation with 3 kings in the city: Trystane, Gaemon and Shepherd could be more foreshadowing. I wonder if Gendry as the former king's bastard, or anyone else, will show up as a puppet ruler. Perhaps Littlefinger has hidden a child from Cersei or could simply proclaim one to be Robert's.

I have a theory about Shepherd's identity. He's armless and described: "Mushroom names him “the Dead Shepherd,” for he claims the man was as pale and foul as a corpse fresh-risen from its grave". I think Shepherd isn't some random Poor Fellow, but Silver Denys. Silver Denys was a dragonseed that tried to claim Sheepstealer, but the dragon bit off his arm and killed him and his sons. If Denys survived or came back from the grave, then he has all the reason to want revenge on Rhaenyra and all dragons. It just explains Shepherd's hatred and fanaticism.

Someone hacking off Joffrey's foot is only more proof that Larys is behind the riots, like a killer's "business card". It's very possible that Joffrey survived the fall but was killed by Larys' men. Syrax was flying low because stones, arrows and spears could reach her and madden her. Joffrey didn't fall directly on the street, he fell on a steep-pitched roof and slid down on tiles. How could his own sword pierce his belly during the fall? Wasn't it in the scabbard? Joffrey needed both hands to hold on to Syrax, so he probably wasn't holding a naked sword in one hand when he fell. It's more probable that he was stunned, maybe broke some bones during the fall and whoever found him first took his sword and pierced him with it.

Hugh Hammer following a vague prophecy and thinking it's about him (it's not) - he truly has Targaryen blood (lol).

If Addam went to the Isle of Faces, then he could have met Daemon who was waiting in Harrenhal for Aemond. The timeline is fuzzy, but it makes sense for Addam to try appealing to Daemon as Rhaenyra's consort and the only one capable of convincing her that Addam is still loyal. After Addam's escape Rhaenyra issued the orders to kill Nettles. So there's enough time for a meeting between Daemon and Addam before 13 days pass and Daemon fights Aemond. I think it would also make sense for Daemon as the main war strategist on Black side to give Addam a battle plan to win at Tumbleton and instruct him about gathering the army of riverlords.

I hope Daeron wasn't killed by Black Trombo because that's just too lame and embarrassing. An unknown soldier or dying in fire is better than Black Trombo.

Hobert Hightower used a gentle poison in the wine to kill Ulf the White, causing him to die in his sleep. This could be the answer to some murder mysteries in this book, like High Septon's death during Maegor's reign. Even Viserys' death is suspect again, as he died at a very convenient timing for the Greens, before Rhaenyra's sons and their dragons were fully grown.

Rhaenyra's decision to return to Dragonstone when she had other, safer options with her allies like the Vale or White Harbour, proves that she wasn't thinking straight. Even if she hatched a dragon, it would be too small to help her in the war. Claiming Grey Ghost or Cannibal had extremely low chances of success. Rhaena literally had 3 dragon eggs in the Vale with her! In addition, the garrison at Dragonstone was made of dregs and men of questionable loyalty. So going to Dragonstone was all around pointless and the worst option Rhaenyra could have picked.

Speaking of Dragonstone garrison, the description resembles Night's Watch. Even Alfred Broome sounds like Alliser Thorne.

I kind of like Aegon and Sunfyre - they're both survivors.

Baela - brave, but foolish. If she ran away and warned Black allies about Aegon, this could have ended very differently. Having a dragon really makes people overconfident.

Sunfyre became a true cannibal by eating Moondancer and then Rhaenyra.

It is rather poetic that Rhaenyra hurting and exploiting people in various ways during her rise ultimately leads to her downfall. The smallfolk in King's Landing suffered her taxes and executions, Helaena's and her sons' deaths destroyed Rhaenyra's reputation, Corlys was unjustly imprisoned, people on Dragonstone lost relatives to the Sowing, Shepherd/Silver Denys was taking revenge for his sons, Hugh and Ulf weren't suitably rewarded, Alfred Broome was passed over and didn't get a deserved promotion. Rhaenyra didn't receive help at Rosby because she didn't give the inheritance to the older sister but to her baby younger brother. Others in Crownlands weren't eager to help her because they lost relatives that were loyal to Rhaenyra or their castles became too weakened after Cole sacking them earlier.

Rhaenyra dying at the age of 33 just punctuates the tragedy. She was still so young.

All in all, this was a terrific chapter.