#great god grove saul

[xreno]

"PRAISE COBIGAIL! "

[computer-gummy-worm]

2 sauls i've drawn at school.... first ones especially off cause i didn't look up a ref ALSO I THOUGHT HIS STACHE WAS A WIDE NOSE THIS WHOLE TIME SO THAT'S ALSO A SLIGHT ISSUE HERE QJXBWBWB

[poppingsmoothie]

for the love of cob...

art trade for @xreno !! Ngl Saul is fun to draw and SOMETIMES fun to color (I love coloring his hair. Everything else is a nightmare/j)

[a-small-tragedy]

He's such a sweet man I'll eat him yum yum yum >:3

[harp00ns]

SMOOTH SAUL!!

[foolwatanuki]

Eat Yo Food Bitch Damn! Fuck You Lookin' Crazy For!

[clownetownie]

Finally actually listening to the soundbites for the ggg fellows. WHY DOES SAUL SOUND LIKE THAT??? (My brain has been imagining him sounding like Mike Myers’s Cat in the hat hippie style)

[ohmyplasticstars]

We love our morally confusing women she's perfect

it's cob o'clock

[xreno]

GUYS PLEASE I'M ABOUT TO SPAM SAUL ART.

[computer-gummy-worm]

this is how that scene went right [ btw as of right now i haven't finished the game yet so NO SPOILERS IN THE TAGS PLEASEEE 🙏 ]

[smileposting]

[THIS POST CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR GREAT GOD GROVE, READ AT YOUR OWN RISK.]

something i think is really interesting about click clack in particular is that out of all the gods he's probably the most Active in making mistakes throughout his arc? but unlike some other gods like mitternacht or cobigail he doesn't have a newly-sown distrust in king, and unlike level-specific antagonists like saul he's not motivated by a distrust of other people. if anything it's his tendency to idolize the people in his life/take their roles for granted (in the "accepts them as Immutable Fact" way) that gets him into hot water in the hobbyhoo level, bc it means he Doesn't Interrogate Anything and also does not Realize that he's not interrogating anything in his daily life, bc being an editor means you already interrogate people's writing on the daily.

he doesn't question why “king” would tell him to tone down the parts of oh partner mine that people care about the most, he's just like "well it's king so she's gotta know what she's talking about." he doesn't question why thespius would keep submitting scripts with those parts still intact after the first rejection, he's just like "ahhh, well, thespius has always had a tender heart. good thing more people will see that after my hard work is done!" and like i've said in previous posts, prior to godpoke's interference, it doesn't really seem like it was the norm to take a complaint straight to a god despite it being the easiest way to solve a problem, so obviously nobody was coming to tell him "hey big man this is kind of uh. shit." despite the fact that this is Also sometimes a necessary part of creative collaboration.

in this way, though far from the Only example, i think click clack's arc is a very good summary from both a divine and a (formerly) mortal perspective of some of the shortcomings of how gods are Regarded by the grove at large when the game first begins - i.e. the idea that gods are not only uniquely infallible, but their godhood is Mutually Exclusive from their humanity (neither of which are true, as we see throughout the game.) i imagine that being raised in a culture like that and then ascending to godhood makes it Very hard to admit when you know something is amiss - because if that's true, then no, your godhood does not make you infallible. and if your godhood doesn't make you infallible, can you really be trusted with godhood? if your godhood doesn't make you infallible like everybody says, what other things are they wrong about? what other things are you wrong about? very intimidating questions! best to just keep at it like you know what you're doing and hope nobody else catches on (spoiler alert: they will, in fact, catch on.)

also i can't find a way to work this into the rest of the post but i also think it's interesting that you can make a case for his arc foreshadowing/paralleling capochin's own? right hand man who is Intensely devoted to the guy he works with and is in denial about the romantic aspect of said devotion -> guy becomes more proactive in doing what he believes will best serve the guy he works with's interests at the expense of their community's morale -> guy eventually realizes he let his devotion blind himself to the true nature of guy he works with's desires and promptly gets his ass in gear to start fixing it. and also realizes that it was in fact a gay thing. obviously there are key differences there bc that's what narrative foils Do but yknow. I Just Think It's Neat.

[mage-ical-character-person]

Right?! Like Thespius and Click Clack are just treated like celebrities, Bauhauzzo and Huzzle Mug are the weird immortal city council, Inspekta is… a cult leader at this point. Like the Bizzyboys are a cult now. Maybe they weren’t always a cult but they’ll literally take your name away to manipulate you.

And Miss Mitternacht is maybe the creator god but even then like… when you go to help her and end up only making her cry more nobody’s like “oh you’ve doomed us all our god is displeased” it’s a mix of “oh this is inconvenient” from some characters and “How could you make such a lovely lady cry?!” from others (even though some of Miss M’s dialogue is like… yeah she once cried so much she caused a Noah’s Arc situation. Very capable of causing big disaster if she’s upset enough.)

Cobigail’s the only one treated as something so other. They have an altar for her when they could literally just walk into the schoolhouse and visit her personally! Everyone’s scared of her, even Bloom’s son!

And she’s the only God who regularly talks positively about her human life! Inspekta only brings his up in a negative light. You can call him a “tiny weak little bug” and he responds like this

And Bauhauzzo brings up his human life only in the context of one of his history lessons: he used to work as a librarian and archivist at The Spire, but mortals aren’t allowed there anymore and it’s fallen into disrepair and he’s a little sad about it but has reached acceptance. It’s sweet but I unfortunately don’t have any screenshots of it atm.

The point is that Cobigail is the only God who still considers her human life a major, positive part of her identity— even despite her memory issues regarding it— yet she’s treated as the least human by the mortals. She values her community so much! And they don’t treat her like a real part of it anymore!

On the bright side, though… some of the people in Mildread have different reactions to Cobigail’s “BOO!” after you remind them what The Harvest is really about. It’s sweet.

Mostly sweet, at least

Saul you freak. (Affectionate, mostly)

Y’know a lot of the gods in Great God Grove are treated more like celebrities than gods. Their power over the thing they’re god of seems to be mostly social influence. Exceptions to this are Miss M, may or may not be the actual creator god of this world, and… Cobigail. For some reason.

The people of Mildread (Bloom notwithstanding) treat Cobigail like an inhuman deity, more like a force of nature than a person. And yeah, she is a force of nature now, technically, but she also values her town, her community so much. She seems to hold her human life in higher regard than any of the other gods do. I wonder if it hurts to be seen as something so other now. To have everyone convinced you’re this monstrous thing. I wonder if she misses being human.

Either way, Cobigail seems to have some actual influence over how well the crops do, which is more than I can say for, like… Thespius. Or Inspekta. Or even Bauhauzzo. He doesn’t seem to have any control over whether people remember things or not, it’s just that his own memory is good and he can… tell people what he remembers.

And then there’s Cobigail. As long as she’s not being starved, she has power over how the crops do. But??? She might’ve already had that as a human??

…She’d get along with Summer from Spiritfarer I think.

That flower in the drawing is glowing. Cobigail even calls her song an “incantation”??

[a-small-tragedy]

Baking together! (Guys, I'm soooooooo sorry...) (...or maybe not!)

[formeandmyfics]

Where Did He Go?

JUGENEA FAN FICTION

1963

Author note: I re-watched a dinner scene from ‘Burton & Taylor’ and it was so very Jugenea that I decide to build a snippet around it. That scene is not mine, just edited to fit the Jugenea universe.*

“You’re going to be great, darling,” Judy said holding June Allyson’s face in her hands adoringly.

They two sat in opposite chairs on the CBS soundstage of The Judy Garland Show during the last rehearsal of episode 5, which would tape in front of a live audience the following day.

June’s husband, Dick Powell, had died earlier that year and it left her good friend deeply depressed. So, Judy invited her to perform on her show. It was the first time she had performed since his passing so it left June nervous on how she’d sound. Judy helped her friend with the melodies and showered her with nothing but love and reassurance. But, the hard work on the show and the energy she had been putting out to others left Judy drained. Not to mention, there was current tension at home with her husband.

Gene was the director of the show, their creative baby, as they called it, and at first everything was amazing. He understood her better than anyone, and he had experienced how she had been treated at MGM. She had been overworked, criticized, scrutinized, it goes on and on. Here, he was patient and understanding and open-minded. They were a ‘hell of a team’, even back to the old days when they acted opposite each other. Plus, Gene absolutely loved directing, especially in this medium. When she did her TV Specials, he was only a producer. Now, he was both and they could call all the shots.

But, a month and a half rolled by, and Judy noticed he would stay at work long after she had left. Most days he would come home and continue working for next week’s episode. She’d go to bed alone and wake up alone, as he’d already be out, or he’d be asleep in the adjoining bedroom. They didn’t go out on their usual date nights and any spare time they had was with the children. She knew this work was important, but she also noticed the two were becoming more like housemates than the lovers that they were.

This past week, however, Gene had started to act harder on the cast and crew. He was irritable, becoming too stern, and not as playful with screw ups as he had been previously. Judy knew Gene was a perfectionist, but she never thought he would treat her like some of his female costars in the movies he was with. Debbie Reynolds, for instance, whom he was very hard on because of her unskilled, ingénue stage.

June replied with relief, “Aw thank you, Judes; we’ll see how it goes tomorrow. That laryngitis really got me this time.”

“Nah, you sound like a bell. See you tomorrow, darling.”

“Bye, sweetheart.”

As the two walked off the stage, Judy looked over at her husband who stood in a group of men going over some things. When she caught his attention from across the way, she motioned to him if she was okay to leave. Gene nodded and shoo’d her away.

When Judy got to her dressing room, she noticed a note taped up on her mirror next to all the pictures of the children hanging there. Leaning in closer, she immediately recognized the handwriting and furrowed her brow as she ripped the paper off to read it.

I’ll be working a little late again tonight. Meet me for a late supper and a drink at Musso and Franks in our usual spot. I’ll be there around 9.

Love you sweetheart,

G

Judy smiled. That was her honey. Feeling better, she left the studio right away to go home and get ready.

Precisely at 9 p.m., Judy walked into the popular bistro on Sunset dressed in a sleek, black cocktail dress with her highest stiletto’s, something Gene thought was sexy ever since she started wearing spiked heels during her concert career. She had washed off her thick stage makeup and applied a more natural look but still had her black lashes and fire red lips, something her husband also loved and her short hair was pulled back to look like a French twist.

Tony, the restaurant’s main maître d, held up his hands graciously as she walked through the door.

The short, bald man’s thick Italian accent filled her ears and she smiled warmly, “Ahh, Mrs. Kelly,”

The two were acquainted since the 40’s, when she first started coming there with Vincente, as it was his favorite restaurant. Tony was a new employee and always addressed her by her husband’s last name. The restaurant was known for its discretion. As a popular celebrity spot, it was always private and respectful to its well-known diners.

“You haven’t been here for months, yes?” he asked taking her hand. “Afraid not. We have been busy with work.”

“New television show. I’ve seen it. Magnifico.”

Judy laughed gleefully, “Thank you, Tony. I appreciate that. Is my husband here?”

“Ah, no. But Mr. Kelly did call ahead. We have your favorite booth over here for you.”

“Thank you.”

He led her to a booth directly behind Charlie Chaplin’s booth, a booth named after the actor, one of the restaurants first celebrity diners.  

She had just ordered a glass of her favorite German wine, when Gene walked in. He was in one of his business suits, but not a dinner suit and his expression looked a little stressed as he walked up to her.

“Hi, doll,” he bent over and gave her a kiss on the cheek before sitting across from her.

“I got your note.”

“I knew you’d see it. Sorry I’m late.”

“You’re not.”

“Can I get you something to drink, sir?”

Gene turned to the waiter, “Scotch rocks, please.”

When the waiter walked away, Judy smiled at her husband in comfortable silence.

When he smiled back just the same she spoke up, “This is lovely. Very intimate.”

Gene noticed a couple across the way staring at them in awe and Judy noticed him staring back and she inquired, “What?”

“Bizarre. I mean, all these years and they’re still interested. You’d think they’d tire, but…”

He looked around again and seemed a little distant and Judy sighed, “Are you going to be like this all night? Just drifting off?”

“I was just thinking of the old times at Ciro’s. It’d mostly be all our friends and such but you’d have some tourists or newcomers come in and they’d sit there staring at all of us like they were watching a movie or something. Do you remember?”

“Sure do.”

“Do you ever think of those times at Ciro’s or The Coconut Grove?”

Judy blinked tenderly at the memories still very much alive for her, “Every day.”

The waiter set his drink down, “Here you are, Sir. Would you like to order?”

“Give us a few, thank you,” Gene took a sip of his drink and perched his lips together, “Did you hear about Saul and Patty?”

“No.”

“They’re getting divorced.”

Judy’s mouth opened a tad, “What? You’ve got to be joking.”

“Nope. They’re the last people I thought would get divorced.”

“Under what pretenses?”

“Not entirely sure. I know a while back he mentioned they were drifting apart.”

Judy raised her eyebrows as she looked down fiddling with her nail, “That’s a shame.”

“It’s funny isn’t it?”

“Hm?”

“What’s at the heart of a good relationship? I mean, love obviously, but that’s a catch-all, really. It’s the main area where all the other bits reside under. The question is: what’s the critical element of a fresh relationship, what keeps a couple together?”

“Err, passion for the heart and soul of one another.”

“Maybe.”

“Sex.”

“Hm. Important. Very.”

“Trust.”

“That’s probably it. I always feel I can trust you when it comes to our relationship.”

Judy smiled mischeviously,“Even before we married?”

“Our affair wasn’t about trust, we both know that. It was about perfect timing.”

“Really? That’s what you think bound us: timing? I always thought it was because of my legs.”

They both chuckled.

“Yes, well, they clearly had a role. They’re still magnificent by the way.”

Gene’s eyes shined as he took another sip of his cocktail and she almost blushed.

“So,” he said breaking the trance, “Are you ready to order or…”

“Darling, listen, listen, listen…” she cut him off gently, “I want to say some things. I’ve wanted to say them for a while. I almost did the other night but you seemed stressed…”

He immediately chimed in with a tired sigh, “I am stressed. I mean, we just got the show going and that damn CBS Aubrey is…”

Judy furrowed her brows a little taken back, “No, I’m not talking about the show, Gene. I’m talking about you and me and how our relationship has been since the show.”

“What do you mean?”

“You’re overworking yourself and—“

“Judy, please,” he leaned forward on his elbows and lowered his voice, “Can I say something, now that’s it’s on my mind?” Judy nodded apprehensively and he continued, “There are a couple of things which have crept in over the beginning run of the show. They’re tiny things, but, the way you play to the audience, for instance, you seem too involved in knowing you’re on camera. I don’t mean knowing where to hit your mark, because you do that on point, but your confidence level. I think you should play it as if you are back on stage, you know at the Palace or Carnegie Hall…”

Judy stared at him appalled, “You’re giving me notes? I’m trying to talk to my husband, and instead my director is giving me acting notes?”

“No, I…”

Judy pushed her wine glass away from her not interested in the meal anymore, “Jesus, Gene. Why did you ask me out tonight?”

“What?”

“Why did you ask me out to supper tonight? Why did you do that?” she demanded.

“Because I wanted to have dinner with you and get a drink after a hard week at work.”

Judy giggled almost pathetically shaking her head.

“You’re my wife. It’s perfectly natural for me to want to get dinner with you, isn’t it?”

“I thought my husband was asking me out, not my director. I thought we were going on a date. I got all dressed up and was looking forward to spending time alone with you. You were just flirting with me and now you’re giving me god damn notes.”

Gene let out a heavy sigh and leaned back in his seat, “For Christ sakes, Judy. I was just making conversation.”

Judy leaned forward and lowered her voice pointing at him to prove a point, “When we worked together in the past, you never discussed our work when we went out for dinner. Why now?”

“I told you I’m stressed. It’s a lot of pressure on me to…”

She cut him off, “It’s a lot of pressure on me, too, but you don’t see me giving you notes on how to be a better director.”

Gene clenched his jaw, “I beg your pardon.”

Judy rephrased herself, “You’re a great director, but lately, you’ve started acting the way you promised me you wouldn’t act.”

“Such as?” he demanded back.

“You’ve been hard on me. You’re irritable and impatient with everyone.” He opened his mouth to speak but she put her hand up, “At home, we’re drifting apart. I thought you noticed and that’s why I assumed you asked me out for a date. We haven’t gone out, we don’t spend time alone at home, and we barely even sleep in the same bed for goodness sakes.”

Gene acted like he barely listened as he pound his finger on the table now making a point himself, “I want our show to be perfect.”

Seeing that he didn’t reply to anything she said of them, she hissed, “Fine, in which case, I’ll take that note. Where did my Harry Palmer go, remember?”

Gene looked at her incredibly at the mention of his first on-screen character from their first picture.

“Or Serafin or Joe Ross…the man who would’ve risked everything for me. Who did! He risked his marriage and his career; he tossed it all against the rocks so he could be with me. Where did he go, Gene?” Her voice rose as she stood up, “Tell me where my fucking husband went!”

With that, she threw her napkin down on the table and stormed out as diners stared their way.

The next afternoon, it was past 12 when Gene finally emerged from the spare bedroom. He made his way to the kitchen where Judy was still in a bathrobe and making tea. When he walked in, looking well rested, she turned to look at him as if to see who it was, then turned back to her tea.  

“You slept late,” she said surprised.

“I guess I needed it.”

“You did.”

Gene stared at the back of her a moment as if pondering something before he walked up to her. He gave her a kiss on the cheek and placed his hand on her back, “Hi honey.”

She gave him a side eye, but her expression was soft and she didn’t nudge him away. It was good enough for him so he pulled her closer to speak softly into her ear as she stirred honey into her cup.

“Listen, I…”

Suddenly the sounds of the children piling through the front door interrupted them. Then teenage Liza came through the kitchen door.

“Hi, Papa Gene!” Liza exclaimed as she embraced him.

“Hi, baby, when did you here?”

“Yesterday afternoon.”

“How was the park?” Judy inquired.

“Good. The kids behaved themselves.”

“Went to Holmby Park again, huh?”

“Yep. Guess, what, Mama said that she’s going to do a Christmas show and that all of us can perform on there with her.”

“Oh, I know, it was my idea.”

“Was not…” Judy mumbled.

“Was so,” he repeated just the same.

Liza sensed some tension, “Ah, I’m going to make sure the kids get cleaned up,” and she quickly skedaddled out of there.

“I’m the one who mentioned it to you,” she said matter-of-factly.

“I’m the one who set up the sketch.”

“But it was my idea, Gene.”

“Okay, it your idea sweetheart. It always is,” he said quite sarcastically.

“Don’t do that,” she sighed.

“Here is my idea. At the end of the show, I want you to sing Rainbow.”

Judy looked at him to protest but he quickly stopped her, “I know you don’t like doing it much on television, but I think if you do it with the children, it will be very special.”

She gently smiled, “I like that idea.”

“Good. You know, I did a lot of thinking last night about what you said…” he trailed off.

“And?” Judy took a sip of her tea.

“And, I have been quite a jerk haven’t I?”

“I wouldn’t say that, Gene. You’re not vindictive; you’re just being too hard on everyone all of a sudden. Including me.”

Gene hung his head and nodded, “I’m sorry. I know you’re under pressure, too, but I think for me that’s the reason why I’m suddenly short with everyone.”

“Maybe you should find ways to cope with that. Start swimming again. You always did that when you were stressed.”

“I think I will.”

“And what about us?”

“I miss you, too,” is all he said as he leaned over to give her a kiss, “Can I ask my wife out for dinner and dancing tonight after the show?”

“It’s tape night. Won’t you be too tired?”

“Darling, for you, it’s worth it.”

Judy smiled as he gave her another kiss.

[christian-perspectives]

Don't Settle For Less Than God's Best

With the prophet Samuel getting older, the elders of Israel realized they would need a new leader. Instead of depending on the Lord as their King, they were willing to settle for less. Look, they told him, “you are now old, and your sons are not like you. Give us a king to judge us like all the other nations have. 1 Samuel 8:5 When you go shopping what is the determining factor as to whether you purchase an item or not? I have to admit, for me, it’s usually the price. I will often settle for less only because I don’t want to spend more on the product. Even though the others may be better brands. My mother once told me I was so cheap the buffalo squeals when I squeeze a nickel. I hate to admit it but I guess I have to agree with mom. Settling for less is fine when it comes to buying products. But we must never settle for less when it comes to our spiritual well-being. That, however, was the very thing happening in Israel. They had the very best when it came to a king. But they wanted to settle for something less and far more inferior. They liked the leadership of Samuel, but they realized that he wouldn’t live forever. And his sons weren’t even a consideration to follow in his steps. Joel and Abijah, his oldest sons, held court in Beersheba. But they were not like their father, for they were greedy for money. They accepted bribes and perverted justice. 1 Samuel 8:2-3

Samuel Did Not like What They Were Willing to Settle with

Verse 6 tells us that Samuel was displeased with their request so he went to the Lord for guidance. The Lord replied with this answer. “Do everything they say to you,” the Lord replied, “for they are rejecting me, not you. They don’t want me to be their king any longer.   1 Samuel 8:7 God went on to say that Samuel should do as they asked. But He also told him to sternly warn them about the way a king would reign over them. So Samuel passed on the Lord’s warning to the people who were asking him for a king. “This is how a king will reign over you,” 1 Samuel 8:10-11 Samuel laid out God’s warning in great detail - “The king will draft your sons and assign them to his chariots and his charioteers, making them run before his chariots. - Some will be generals and captains in his army, some will be forced to plow in his fields and harvest his crops, and some will make his weapons and chariot equipment. - The king will take your daughters from you and force them to cook and bake and make perfumes for him. - He will take away the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his own officials. - The king will take a tenth of your grain and your grape harvest and distribute it among his officers and attendants. - He will take your male and female slaves and demand the finest of your cattle and donkeys for his own use. - He will demand a tenth of your flocks, and you will be his slaves. - When that day comes, you will beg for relief from this king you are demanding, but then the Lord will not help you.” 1 Samuel 8:11-18 History Confirmed God's Warnings

These warnings given by Samuel proved extremely accurate. And having access to the history of the kings of Israel we have “the rest of the story.” Saul served as the first of the 44 Kings who reigned over God’s people, Israel.  31 of them did evil in the sight of the Lord. 4 others did good and evil before God. Which left only 9 who were labeled as good kings in the sight of God. So Samuel warned the people like God instructed him to. Verses 19 and 20 recorded for us their response. But the people refused to listen to Samuel’s warning. “Even so, we still want a king,” they said. “We want to be like the nations around us. Our king will judge us and lead us into battle.” 1 Samuel 8:19-20 And so the Lord told Samuel to give them what they wanted. With that in mind, let’s consider how this account in the Old Testament can relate to us.

Don't Settle for Less when it Comes to Spiritual Things

If we are set on doing things our way while living on this earth, God will usually allow it. With that said, however, the Lord always wants us to live in the center of His will. He knows though, that there are times that we are willing to settle for less. But when it comes to getting into heaven only one option is available. Many people want to go to heaven, yet they want to get there on their own terms. Many believe the lie that says all roads lead to heaven. The Bible though plainly states that Jesus is preparing a place for us. And He is the only way to the Father. So, when it comes to eternity, don’t try to settle for anything less than God’s best. Because if you do you will suffer forever in torment away from the presence of God. Lord, help me to never settle for anything less than relying on you for the best you have for me. Check out this related post from 1 Samuel called How To Overcome Sinful Desires Against God. Read all of 1 Samuel 8. Read the full article

[holyfaithbiblechurch]

What does the Bible say about reincarnation?

The whole thrust of the Bible opposes reincarnation. It shows that man is the special creation of God, created in God’s image with both a material body and an immaterial soul and spirit. He is presented as distinct and unique from all other creatures—angels and the animal kingdom alike. The Bible teaches that at death, while man’s body is mortal, decays and returns to dust, his soul and spirit continue on either in a place of torments for those who reject Christ or in paradise (heaven) in God’s presence for those who have trusted in the Savior. Both categories of people will be resurrected, one to eternal judgment and the other to eternal life with a glorified body (John 5:25-29). The emphatic statement of the Bible, as will be pointed out below, is that “it is appointed unto men once to die and after that the judgment” (Heb. 9:27). This statement and the concept that mankind’s creation in God’s image is unique from the animals and even angels stand totally opposed to the idea of reincarnation—dying and coming back as another person or in the form of an animal or insect. The claim of some that they have information of past history is nothing more than some kind of encounter with demonic powers who have been present throughout history.

Below is information from A Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli. (InterVarsity Press, Downers Grove).

Six Basic Theories

The human race has come up with six basic theories about what happens to us when we die.

1. Materialism: Nothing survives. Death ends all of me. Seldom held before the eighteenth century, materialism is now a strong minority view in industrialized nations. It is the natural accompaniment of atheism.

2. Paganism: A vague, shadowy semiself or ghost survives and goes to the place of the dead, the dark, gloomy Underworld. This is the standard pagan belief. Traces of it can be found even in the Old Testament Jewish notion of sheol. The “ghost” that survives is less alive, less substantial, less real than the flesh and blood organism now living. It is something like a “ghost image” on a TV set: a pale copy of the lost original.

3. Reincarnation: The individual soul survives and is reincarnated into another body. Reincarnation is usually connected with the next belief, pantheism, by the notion of karma: that after the soul has fulfilled its destiny, and learned its lessons and become sufficiently enlightened, it reverts to a divine status or is absorbed into (or realizes its timeless identity with) the divine All.

4. Pantheism: Death changes nothing, for what survives death is the same as what was real before death: only the one, changeless, eternal, perfect, spiritual, divine, all-inclusive Reality, sometimes called by a name (“Brahman”) and sometimes not (as in Buddhism). In this view—that of Eastern mysticism—all separateness, including time, is an illusion. Therefore, in this view, the very question of what happens after death is mistaken. The question is not solved but dissolved.

5. Immortality: The individual soul survives death, but not the body. This soul eventually reaches its eternal destiny of heaven or hell, perhaps through intermediate stages, perhaps through reincarnation. But what survives is an individual, bodiless spirit. This is Platonism, often confused with Christianity.

6. Resurrection: At death, the soul separates from the body and is reunited at the end of the world to its new, immortal, resurrected body by a divine miracle. This is the Christian view. This view, the supernatural resurrection of the body rather than the natural immortality of the soul alone, is the only version of life after death in Scripture. It is dimly prophesied and hoped for in the Old Testament, but clearly revealed in the New.

For both (5) and (6), the individual soul survives bodily death. That is the issue we shall argue here. We do not take the time to argue against paganism (2) or reincarnation (3) or pantheism (4) here, but only against modern materialism (1), since that is the source of most of the philosophical arguments against immortality in our culture.

Ten Refutations of Reincarnation

Christianity rejects reincarnation for ten reasons.

1. It is contradicted by Scripture (Heb 9:27).

2. It is contradicted by orthodox tradition in all churches.

3. It would reduce the Incarnation (referring to Christ’s incarnation) to a mere appearance, the crucifixion to an accident, and Christ to one among many philosophers or avatars. It would also confuse what Christ did with what creatures do: incarnation with reincarnation.

4. It implies that God made a mistake in designing our souls to live in bodies, that we are really pure spirits in prison or angels in costume.

5. It is contradicted by psychology and common sense, for its view of souls as imprisoned in alien bodies denies the natural psychosomatic unity.

6. It entails a very low view of the body, as a prison, a punishment.

7. It usually blames sin on the body and the body’s power to confuse and darken the mind. This is passing the buck from soul to body, as well as from will to mind, and a confusion of sin with ignorance.

8. The idea that we are reincarnated in order to learn lessons we failed to learn in a past earthly life is contrary to both common sense and basic educational psychology. I cannot learn something if there is no continuity of memory. I can learn from my mistakes only if I remember them. People do not usually remember these past “reincarnations.”

9. The supposed evidence for reincarnation, rememberings from past lives that come out under hypnosis or “past life regression” can be explained—if they truly occur at all—as mental telepathy from other living beings, from the souls of dead humans in purgatory or hell, or from demons. The real possibility of the latter should make us extremely skittish about opening our souls to “past life regressions.”

Please Note: While I would agree with the demonic aspect, I do not agree with the idea of purgatory nor can I agree with the idea of the souls of dead humans communicating with living people. The dead are confined, according to Scripture, and cannot reveal themselves. This is suggested in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 and by the extreme surprise of the witch of Endor when she saw Samuel who was dead (see 1 Sam. 28:8f). She claimed to be a medium or one who contacts the dead, but when Saul requested that she contact Samuel and when God brought him forth, it startled her and brought great fear. This appeared to be her first experience with the real thing, i.e., with seeing the dead because this is normally not possible. When people do experience such experiences or contact, what they are seeing or experiencing is better identified as demonic.

10. Reincarnation cannot account for itself. Why are our souls imprisoned in bodies? Is it the just punishment for evils we committed in past reincarnations? But why were those past reincarnations necessary? For the same reason. But the beginning of the process that justly imprisoned our souls in bodies in the first place—this must have antedated the series of bodies. How could we have committed evil in the state of perfect, pure, heavenly spirituality? Further, if we sinned in that paradise, it is not paradisical after all. Yet that is the state that reincarnation is supposed to lead us back to after all our embodied yearnings are over.

If the answer is given that our bodies are not penalties for sin but illusions of individuality, the pantheistic One becoming many in human consciousness, no reason can possibly be given for this. Indeed, Hinduism calls it simply lila, divine play. What a stupid game for God to play! If Oneness is perfection, why would perfection play the game of imperfection? All the world’s sins and sufferings are reduced to a meaningless, inexplicable game.

And if evil is itself only illusory (the answer given by many mystics) then the existence of this illusion is itself a real and not just illusory evil. Augustine makes this telling point.

Where then is evil, and what is its source, and how has it crept into the creation? What is its root, what is its seed? Can it be that it is wholly without being? But why should we fear and be on guard against what is not? Or if our fear of it is groundless, then our very fear is itself an evil thing. For by it the heart is driven and tormented for no cause; and that evil is all the worse, if there is nothing to fear yet we do fear. Thus either there is evil which we fear, or the fact that we fear is evil. (Confessions, VII, 5)

(See also Justin Martyr, Dialog with Trypho [ca. a.d. 180], and Albrecht, Reincarnation, for extended Christian critiques of this idea.)

The following information is from The Bible Has the Answer by Henry M. Morris and Martin E. Clark (Master’s Books, El Cajon).

The first, most glaring dissimilarity between reincarnation and Biblical doctrine occurs in the idea of a recurring cycle of existence. Does each person live many times in the same or different form? The Bible says, “It is appointed for men once to die, and after this comes judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). The Scripture pictures death as a separation of the soul from the world, Christ Himself describing death as God requiring man’s soul (Luke 12:20). When a saint of God dies, rather than merely being promoted to a higher status for another lifetime, he enters his eternal estate, secured for him by God’s grace. The divinely inspired apostle exclaimed, “We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8). Christ’s record of the rich man and Lazarus shows that both the saved and the unsaved enter their respective rewards following death (Luke 16:19-31).

So then, one’s life is not followed by an indefinite number of succeeding lifetimes. This vital difference established, more tangible differences emerge.

Classical ideas of reincarnation know nothing of a personal God who enters holy relationships with His creatures. In fact, ultimate reality is usually conceived as a cognitive process within man himself, rather than as a personal God.

Further, reincarnation schemes make men’s spiritual advancement contingent upon his mortal efforts, attempting to make merit outweigh demerit. Christianity shows, however, that salvation cannot be earned by sinful man, but rather, it is merited by Jesus Christ’s substitutionary death and resurrection for all who believe. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Also, many theories of reincarnation hold that man’s spiritual, physical, and moral conditions are determined by a former life and therefore not under his control. Physically, this has led to a passive, pessimistic acceptance of untold misery that was actually unnecessary. Spiritually, it is even more devastating. The Bible reveals that no one is bound in his sins against his will, and though born under Adam’s curse, “if we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Through God’s forgiving grace, “though your sins be as scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they will be like wool” (Isaiah 1:18). Consequently, the Christian does not worry about his merit outweighing his demerit, for his sins have been forgiven, God having promised, “I will remember their sins no more” (Hebrews 8:12).

Finally, some people attempt to equate reincarnation with the Christian doctrine of resurrection, but in doing so, violate the meanings of both reincarnation and resurrection. Reincarnation advances a future life on earth, bound by similar constraints and physical laws, while the resurrection speaks of that time when earthly bodies with all their accoutrements will be transformed and fitted for their eternal estate (John 5:29). Reincarnation holds that matter is essentially evil, while resurrection demonstrates that there is no moral dualism between matter and spirit. Reincarnation posits a future life in a different body (or even a different order of physical life), while resurrection promises that one’s own body will take on a new, incorruptible, glorified form. Describing the resurrection, Paul stated, “It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body . . . it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body” (1 Corinthians 15:42, 44).