#genderqueer and other gender identies

[genderqueerdykes]

there really is a cultural pressure for transmascs & men to detransition, and it comes from all sides. it comes from the queer community too, not just terfs and cishet transphobes.

it took me a while to realize why transphobic people and transandrophobic queers utterly despise trans guys & mascs who are over the age of like 25- it's because it pisses them right off that we've resisted their attempts to make us detransition. it makes them so angry to see they were unable to groom that person into a life of self-shame and repression. it really seems like MOST people believe that trans men will just detransition eventually in life? people NEVER think about older trans men, only teenage trans boys and trans men in their very early twenties.

when i was involved with my local punk scene i was addressed with condescension, almost everyone around me didn't accept transmasculinity as a legitimate identity and thought that we would've transitioned by now in life. i encountered folks who would talk about transmasculinity with subtle disgust that made me feel like i was doing something wrong, and people who expressed overt disgust, saying in plain english that they were disgusted by breasts and vaginas because they were gay men. all along the way i was literally mocked for not having a penis, and one of my roommates started treating me differently once they found out i didn't have one (because they were attracted to me)

i've been on T for 9 years, and been out as a trans man for a bit longer than that, and i noticed as i've aged i've also attracted a lot of folks who have tried to deter me from identifying as a trans man, either through directly telling me that trans men are inherently dangerous, or by implying that women or another gender are safer, quieter, calmer, "less traumatizing to be around," etc. one of my exes told me they were terrified to date me (despite literally going out of their way to do so for over half a year) because they were scared i would be transphobic to them because i'm a transmasculine lesbian.

i received pressure from online friends to either detransition and become an intersex butch woman, or to something feminine adjacent or nonbinary. for years i dealt with a few friends who kept subtly hinting that i should stop identifying as a trans man or trans masc because of how awful transmascs are- going as far as to sending me screenshots of transmascs speaking, complaining about them and calling them whiny, annoying. talking about how all transmascs are entitled, how all transmascs take things too personally, how we complain too much, and so on.

people make no effort to make space for transmascs and men. i met 0 transmascs in my local punk community that i was able to stay in contact with. none. i met a few in passing but none that actually were introduced to me in a capacity where i could actually try to befriend them. it really felt like other punks in the scene were desperately trying to keep the transmascs apart at times. excuses were made as to why i couldn't hang out with other transmascs i liked, but i was constantly being forced to befriend transphobic cis gay men and transandrophobic transfemmes who outwardly expressed hatred and disgust of us. it really felt like it was on purpose... almost as if other members of this community wanted our attention, but never wanted us to give each other attention or a sense of community. like we were objects, not people to be included in the community for real. satellite friends, if you will.

i'll be honest with you. i was at my lowest at this point. i realized i wasn't just a trans man and that i'm a genderqueer person who experiences multiple genders, including womanhood and an "other" gender, which was great. however now i was being forced to completely stuff down being a man for the sake of other people. instead of folks telling me they'd rather not hang out with transmascs, folks rather just attempted to guilt me for identifying as such in the hopes i'd stop identifying that way. i was being told daily that trans men and mascs are inherently violent and terrible to be around. i was in discord servers where transmascs were being kicked constantly for getting even slightly upset about transandrophobia, or being unfairly targeted by staff.

it's violence, but nobody wants to call it that. i pulled myself out of there and am now able to contact other transmascs and trans men who are proud of who they are and have elevated me back into a headspace where it's okay to truly be myself. just keep in mind that if you feel like you're in that situation, you're not alone. people who attempt to groom others are often very subtle it's not always up front. they will start slipping in hateful sentiments very slowly and make you feel like maybe they're the ones who are actually right.

it feels good to be an almost 32 year old trans guy. there's nothing to be ashamed about there. people project their feelings on to my gender and that has nothing to do with me. it has nothing to do with you, either. people will just project on to you for whatever reason- hatred is usually the motivator there. if you encounter folks who keep trying to badger you out of identifying as your gender, no matter who you are, transmasc, transfemme, transneutral, trans anything- they are not good for you. they are not your friends. they do not accept you as you are and you deserve so much better.

[notes-from-the-epicene]

"I don't owe you androgyny"

I’m not sure how many times I’ve heard this rallying cry repeated in the non-binary community now. The idea that us enbies are people that are not simply the Harry-Styles-in-the-ugliest-outfit-you-can-possibly-imagine stereotype of a mix between femininity and masculinity is analogous to the core struggle genderqueer people face daily against the traditional western gender binary; “we get to choose who we are – not you”. With that in mind, I want to discuss my experience as an AMAB enby – specifically one who “presents masculine”.

When I first came out as an enby, I received the standard shit from people. Some insidious, some overt - for every “You’re just a man in denial” and “You just want to invade women’s spaces”, I also had a “I’ve always thought of you as a man, though…” or a “You’re just a trans women waiting to realise who she is”. There was a big issue with where these comments, however - they weren’t just coming from your regular uneducated bigots.

They were coming from other enbies.

Let me talk about my identity for a moment. I see myself as outside of gender as a construct. Androgyny? Femininity? Masculinity? They mean nothing to me. I am me. That is my identity. That is who I want to be seen as, and no less. Am I masculine? Apparently. I dress practically the same now as I did before I came out: for utility. Sure, I like to look attractive, but first and foremost I dress for my own comfort – to use the word that people refer to me as, “masculine”. T-shirt. Jeans. Boots.

I also have my bra. A ratty old thing, it stops my breasts from poking out too much or moving in an uncomfortable way. I have a disorder that causes AIS, which means my body doesn’t process testosterone properly, leading to androgynous sexual characteristics - breasts, no body hair, no facial hair, softer skin, that sort of thing. My disorder is pretty metaphorical for my experience of gender; I’ve never fitted neatly into any category. As a kid, I played as much in a “feminine” way as a did a “masculine” way, much to the chagrin of my parents. When I had been properly house-broken to the traditional rules of gender, I was a mess. Your classic mid-teens “alpha male” wannabe. I couldn’t mediate my body, my personality, my experiences with what everyone else told me was how I was supposed to be; to put it another way, who I was against how people told me I had to be.

I didn’t owe them masculinity, but by god did I feel like I did.

This isn’t a feeling that’s gone away since I realised who and what I truly am; it’s morphed. I know the classic narrative of queerdom is solidarity, empathy, and resistance in the face of oppression, but my reality has been dog-eat-dog world of exclusion, infighting, distrust, and derision.

I don’t owe anyone androgyny, but by god do I feel like I need to.

Why do I feel that need? My identity is defined by rejection of gender. I don’t fit into a category – sex or gender. If I were staying true to myself (#Slay) I’d feel no need to change my gender presentation for the public eye. I should be me – no less. However, gender is a social construction. We in the genderqueer community have taken that idea to a logical conclusion: we have the ability to define ourselves - nobody else. We have absolute sovereignty over our own identities. Gender is still, however, a social construction. The words “Masculine”, “Feminine”, “Androgynous” – they mean nothing to me internally, in the domain of myself, but socially? They apply. My presentation is how I am judged; literally, how I present to people. The social qualities that these categorisations hold is how the majority of people get their first impressions of me, how they interpret my actions, my words, my ideas.

A lot of people are scared of masculinity, and for good reason, too. Patriarchy, intersexual violence, sexual assault, the list goes on and on and on. I wouldn’t dare invalidate their experiences for any amount of personal validation of my own identity - but that’s not to say those reactions don’t invalidate my identity. In my experience, presenting how I do – a “masculine” AMAB enby – is an incredibly fine line in the genderqueer community. At one moment, I am the genderless entity I want to be perceived as. I am me - my personality, my actions, my good and bad qualities. The next moment, I am a man. Frightening, unempathetic, a bull in the china shop of other people’s fears and traumas – a danger to be managed and accounted for.

My experience of gender is a constant battle. Even in the realm of those who do not normally view me as masculine, all it takes is a single mistake to trigger the view. I monitor what I say, how I act, what I do in order to maintain the social view that I am me  – not a man. In my experience, my  assigned sex and gender matter just as much in genderqueer spaces as they do in the outside world. I have to perform to expectations, partake in the gendered masquerade for acceptance.

I am not a man, nor a male – I rejected the former, and the latter is a rough categorisation for me at best. I can’t trade my presentation for the comfort of others; to do so feels like an injustice, a betrayal of myself and the goals of the genderqueer movement, yet I can’t expect others’ comfort when I present how I do. To do so would be an injustice to them, a denial of their own experiences. Is that reaction justified? I feel like I’m not allowed to answer to that – to (ironically) paraphrase Simone de Beauvoir, I feel as though I am both judge and party to this issue.

To summarise this long rant, the genderqueer community has a question to face. Yes, genders are social constructions, but the social aspects of presentation cause intersectional issues we are seemingly struggling with. When considering justice for our masculine siblings, where do we draw the lines of our discourse? How involved should they be in these discussions? Do we take our ideals to their conclusion, involving them and letting them individuate themselves away from their presentation, or do we hold strongly in consideration for the anxieties and traumas of those affected by patriarchy? I would hope there is a third answer here – one that my privileges might not allow me to see, but I hope that in this writing I can convince you, the reader, to consider your own feelings about this issue.

[uwmspeccoll]

Staff Pick of the Week

My staff pick this week is, Gender Queer: and other Gender Identities, by American photographer Dave Naz, published by A Barnacle Book/Rare Bird Books, Los Angeles, California, 2014.

Naz’s work focuses on “the varied identities and personae of our time.” The photographs are accompanied by an introduction by the photographer and five short personal narratives by queer artists, performers, and writers: “Now Tell Me, What Kind of Man Are You?” by Morty Diamond, “Toying With Pleasure: Can Gender Be A Sex Toy?” by Jiz Lee, “Gender In Stereogram” by Ignacio Rivera, “A Nine Gender Valentine” by Jenny Factor, and “Noah Enaction” for Sarah Burghauser.

The book shares the great diversity of gender expression though portraiture and narrative. The models and authors make themselves vulnerable by giving an account of their experience of being trans, gender queer, non-binary or of another gender identity. The authors of the short stories share their experience of pain, loss, love, joy, intimacy, and self discovery. The models share their diverse expressions of gender through their style, tattoos, pose, expressions, and interactions with their partners. 

Visibility matters and has a huge impact on the protection of the rights of the LGBTQIA+ community. Books and images such as these educate society and humanize people who are often grossly stereotyped and misunderstood.  

This book is part of our LGBTQ+ Collection that we share with our sibling department, the UWM Archives, and is one of the largest such collections in the Upper Midwest.

Sending love to all of our LGBTQIA+ friends and allies,

-- Teddy, Special Collections Graduate Intern

[polyamorouspunk]

topic: transmasc lesbians? i see a lot of people online saying "you can't be transmasc and a lesbian" but i mean historically there's been a lot of overlap between butch lesbians and trans men and like if you've identified as a lesbian for 20 years before realizing you're actually transmasc it might feel weird to call yourself straight after that yknow? im just saying gender/sexuality is complex and they dont exist in a void and it makes me angry when ppl pretend they do

It is! Gender is fluid! Sexuality is fluid! And people will be like yeah yeah and then you say something like that and they’re like wait no-

There’s a right way to be queer-

And that ain’t it chief-

Which is bullshit you know.

People be like pronouns don’t equal gender and then if someone who IDs as a girl uses He/Him they’re like wait no that’s not the right was to be queer.

People will be like “I ID with two terms so I’m going to combine them” and people will be like that’s not how words work like ready? Because I just used the word “they’re” which is a combination of 2 words-

And like people will be like “Lesbian has always included nonbinary people” like some lesbians won’t dump their partner after they come out as nonbinary or trans... like that’s why terms like bi lesbian exist...

Also who cares? It really doesn’t effect you.

“If men think lesbians are attracted to women then they’ll use that as an excuse” no men are going to use any excuse whether or not it’s that and also stop blaming other women for shitty men.

“Your gender is why people don’t take my gender seriously” no it’s not? There are plenty of people who are accepting of trans without accepting things like “star gender” even within the queer community? Even some people in the community are transphobic and won’t accept your trans gender?

“These identities are harmful” people having fun with “made up genders” to call themselves similar to making up a nickname for yourself is harmful?

“You need to go outside no one in the real world is going to call you those things” and I’m not expecting them to?

I mean really if you explain to the random stranger on the street that you’re a transmasc lesbian they’re just going to be like okay? I don’t care? Or they’ll ask and you explain and they’re like okay cool and move on with their life. People are a lot more accepting than you would think, that, or they know how to keep their fucking mouths shut and not be fucking rude about it? Like normal people? Don’t bully others for kicks? Most people are naturally kind? I’m sorry that’s hard for exclusionists to understand because they always want to be the victim while also blaming other members of their community for the outside oppression they face (victims blaming).

People be like “stop using out words” and then we make our own and they call them fake and tell them that we just need to use their words for ease....

Gender and sexuality aren’t a science they’re a social construct. They’re imaginary. You cannot hold them in your hand. It’s just not that hard to respect that people have different experiences? Like just because you don’t experience something and you can’t understand it doesn’t mean it isn’t real to someone else. Idk man. Stop blaming other people for your problems. Words are not perfect. Either people get mad because terms like “lesbian” are too broad and so we use them or they’re not broad enough and so we make more and they’re like no that’s too complicated now why can’t you just use lesbian. Also historical context? None.

Anyway this blog supports “contradictory” (not contradictory) identies like “bi lesbian” or “transmasc lesbian” or “nonbinary male” or “genderqueer guy” etc.

[fortunatelyfresco]

Asking for me, do you think it's okay for a cis person to have trans headcanons? Same question but if they're genderqueer but don't identify as trans? If they're "as-born-as"-gender-conforming but genderqueer? Basically do you think a non-trans person can have a trans headcanon without it being, or being seen as, transphobic? (I apologize if this sounds aggressive/passive aggressive, it's super not supposed to be, but i've been told i sound passive aggressive a lot when typing)

hi anon! you don't sound passive aggressive, no worries.

i'm just gonna state the obvious up front, which is that i don't speak for everyone. some people are never going to be comfortable reading or looking at art about characters who experience X Thing that the writer/artist/etc does not experience, and some people are fine with it. i fall on both sides of that fence depending on the circumstances. (and the execution, admittedly.)

that said, i personally think it can be okay! it depends on a lot of factors, of course. there are certain nuances a cis person can't really capture, and i do get uncomfortable when a cis writer tries to delve deep into like... The Trans Experience (tm) and/or fulfills certain cliches etc.

but i think having A Character Who Is Trans Or Genderqueer is fine, and can be very meaningful to people, and if it feels right for the character (assuming you've thought about why that is and you're confident it's not for exploitative or demeaning etc reasons) i think it's best to move forward with it!

and i think if you do want to figure out some deeper aspects of their identity, the first step (after some basic research) would be to approach it as "How does Character X see this?" as opposed to "How would A Trans Or Genderqueer Person see this?"

I also think writing/thinking about characters can be a great way to explore our own feelings and identities. A lot of trans people figure out they're trans by writing about other people being trans, and non-trans people can also have important revelations about their own or other people's identies the same way.

(further disclaimer that there are Nuances to Gender Feelings that i also don't have personal experience with bc i'm dfab and white!)

[swordshapedleaves]

Honestly I was being a bit flippant but I do feel like bisexual is the right one for me for multiple reasons, one of which is that I like the cool and simple color palette.

Okay, hot take? Bisexual and pansexual are functionally synonyms, and the decision to ID as one or the other comes down to personal preference and interpretation, and any attempt to further separate the two is driving a wedge between two communities that should have nothing but love and solidarity for one another. 

We have more in common than not, and the words for our respective identities should not be pitted against each other. 

[cherryscentedlube]

Hi. Sorry to bother you, I was just wondering where the idea that Dan may not identify as cis comes from? Of course I have absolutely no problem with nb, gender queer, gender fluid etc identies so I'm not asking out of ignorance, they can identify however they feel, I'm just genuinely curious. Sorry if this was phrased badly, I'm just interested.

this wasnt phrased badly at all :) i dont particularly know where it came from. i believe that, over the years, dan began talking more and more about non cis people, and others began assuming that maybe he showed more interest in this than people who identify as cis, and that he spoke about people who were genderfluid, nb, genderqueer etc as if he had personal experience. again, not my opinion, this is just where i believe it stemmed from.

[tbtntrauma2550]

Engaging with Trauma on a Community Level / Activism

by Katie Kuhlwein

Activism Effects

There is research that shows that those who experience trauma have also found healing larger scale methods such as in feminist movements and activism. 

Activism can be seen as an example of helping others and helping oneself. Helping others in general has been found to be a healthy and effective coping mechanism (Midiarsky, 1991). Survivors of trauma specifically use this coping skill. For example, a study of 16 male victims found that there were three main healthy ways they coped with sexual abuse trauma, one of the ways being helping others (Grossman, 2006). Another study asked 163 undergraduate students found that those who had experienced trauma in their life volunteered more than those who had not experienced trauma (Vollhardt & Staub, 2011).

Specifically with activism, it has been studied as a connection for coping with trauma as well. For example, this study interviewed two white women and they discussed how activism aided in coping with their trauma (Haglili, 2020).  Although not looking at trauma, in a study focusing on 123 lesbian participants answered a questionairre that’s results linked participating in feminist activties with higher self esteem (Leavy & Adams, 1986). Another study focused on lesbian, bisexual, and queer identifying women and found that experiencing discrimination related to their sexuality was posivitely correlated with participating in feminist action. The authors of the study guess that this could be explained due to women experiencing more discrimination being more determined to take part in activism that opposes that discrimination (Friendman & Leaper, 2010). Another study that looked at 20 queer identifying women and transgender participants found similar results that activism was also used a way to heal from discrimination, as well as boosting personal growth and social connections (Hagen et al, 2016). 

Example: #MeToo movement

There are several large feminist movements in response to trauma the United States that can be examined. The #MeToo movement took off nationwide in 2017 as it was popularized by white Hollywood actress Alyssa Milano (coming out about being sexually assaulted by Hollywood film producer Harvey Weinstein), but was founded in 2006 by a Black activist named Tarana Burke (Gull & Rahman-Jones, 2020). This relatively new movement was started as a way to convey how many survivors of sexual trauma there are and are often silenced. One recent study investigated the effects of this movement gaining such popularity and attention. Through interviews, results from these 16 participants (13 women, 2 genderqueer, 1 man and genderqueer; all anti sexual assault violence actvisits and survivors) showed how many of them thought movements like this are positive for many reasons, the first that it raises awareness to the public and other survivors. Many of them also believed that being involved in this activism helped them personally, such as understanding themselves more, using the activism as a coping mechanism, gaining more self confidence, strengthening their ability to speak on the issue, having improved relationships and making new ones through the activism, and that it gave them support and validation. However, almost all of the participants also described their challenges of being a survivor of sexual trauma and being an activist against sexual violence. This includes how the work can trigger memories of their sexual assault, burn out due to the intense work they do, feeling constantly surrounded by the topic as it gains popularity in the media, and is increasingly stressful for those who have marginlized identies (Strauss-Swanson & Szymanski, 2020). Overall, there appear to be benefits and challenges of being a survivor and being an activist in a movement related to your trauma. 

Take Back the Night

The #MeToo movement is relatively new, so we wanted to look at a movement that had a longer history in the United States. Take Back the Night (TBTN) is a movement with more history, as it proclaims it is, “the earliest worldwide effort to combat sexual violence and violence against women,” (Take Back the Night, n.d.). What started as a phrase used in protests and other activism across the United States starting in the 1970s to bring attention to the issue of sexual violence against women, has become a formal organization in 2001. 

TBTN inspired many protests and rallies throughout the United States over the decades, and even sometimes internationally, with many being held at (but not limited to) college campuses. TBTN usually was in the form of rallying participants together, marching, chanting, having speakers, and sometimes a candlelight vigil. 

TBTN was started as a response to women victims and survivors of sexual assault. Especially in the earlier decades, protests commonly were for women only, citing that it is a space separate from men, the perpetrators of the violence. While some men supporting the movement sometimes still showed up or some events did include men, TBTN kept its focus on women’s experiences and violence to women by men especially in the 1970s and 1980s. Media pushback circulated in the response often when these boundaries were set up about men claiming victimization themselves from being excluded. These debates for rules like this were common for TBTN, as well bringing attention to when trans women were excluded from the events too (Kretschmer & Barber, 2016). 

Another very problematic issue with events like TBTN rallies was that because this movement especially at this time was mostly centered around white, middle class women as victims and often targeted Black and pooper communities, “... which fueled racist media portrayals and increased police surveillance in already disproportionately affected areas. Particularly in the South, marches helped fuel race-based stereotypes that criminalized African American men as rapists, portrayed white women as helpless victims, and designated white men as protectors and saviors, “(Aamot, 2020). In addition, events like TBTN have been connected with pushing the idea that most sexual violence happens at random and/or by a stranger, even though that in reality, numbers today show that around 90% of survivors know their perpetrator (Aamot, 2020). This shows that while TBTN may have been helpful for some as a way to cope with trauma, it was not an available choice for many people, and even have made it worse for others.

By the mid 1990s, third-wave feminism in the U.S. was influenced more widely by queer and transgender ideas, caused a shift in the feminist movement as a whole to challenge the gender binary and be more inclusive as a movement. There was also a push to acknowledge that men and others not identifying as women can be victims of sexual assault too, not just women, so it is hypocritical and invalidting to not include survivors based on sex or gender. These changes in contemporary feminism are seen in the TBTN movement at the time, as there were less restrictions of identities or attendees becoming more common at rallies. 

TBTN became a formal organization in 2001 and has since officially expanded their vision. On their official website it says, “We continue to march forward into the future recognizing and committing to ending sexual violence for all people of all sexual and gender identities, races, ethnicities, nationalities, religious beliefs, ages, abilities, and statuses. We welcome all who will walk, stand, speak, chant, and rally with us until sexual violence is no more.”

Conclusion

TBTN has a complex history as both a vehicle of activism, but also as setting up gendered walls and contributing to racial stereotypes such as the Black rapist targeting the innocent white woman. Chances for activism such as TBTN have also been found to be effective for those who have experienced trauma, though, as a way to cope and make interpersonal connections. Feminist activism is a great opportunity for people to effectively cope with trauma, but if the movements themsleves are not inclusive, many survivors will be left behind.

[fuckblizzardbearlover]

All this stupid ass drama over what ambiguous made up word (gay, queer, lesbian, whatever) is so freaking stupid and i’m tired of you people making this out harder than it is.

First of all anything can be a slur. Yea some people where called Queer, some peopel where called fag, some people where called pansy, some people where called pervert, some people where called gay. Its almost like there are 8 billion people on this planet and everyones experiences are different. Like i have no personal reason to think ‘queer” is a slur because at least in my life no one has used that and i assume it was mostly used in the late 20th century. where i grew up Gay was used as an insult, you know the whole “dont use gay like that”...thing. but I identify as gay because thats what i fucking am. Woman, Black, Frenchy, American, boy whatever are used as slurs too and there are dozens of others.

It all comes down to one simple and obvious fact that for some reason you people are to stupid to understand.

the idea of “identify”ing is because gender and sexuality is fluid because all the stupid labels we made are trying to define something indefinable. So we leave it up to people to label themselves. It doesnt matter if your definition of “genderqueer” or “pansexual” matches others. “I identify as X”. Heck i’m gay but under some IMO weird logic i could call myself HeteroAce/Bisexual because i am able to identify women i think are pretty but i’m not attracted to any? IDK people literally go decades and their entire lives without understanding themselves so why would you ever think you could understand someone else’s indentity FOR them?

The simple fact is, You decide what you want to be called (OBVIOUSLY trying to avoid anything that promotes prejudice against other identiies like “I identify as a True Vaginal woman” as slang for “i’m a transphobic cis woman”), and you keep things ambiguous when refering to others and if they inform you of what they want to be called...you use that.

You name yourself and you respect other peoples names. Like yea, i honestly believe that some “identities” out there are made up, or just other identies with an astrix tacked on....but it..doesnt fucking matter. Like yea there ARE many people who define their identity in such a way as to be aggressive against others (such as calling yourself bisexual instead of pansexual because to you bisexual means “the two only genders” and not “two different genders” , or the previous Terf example i gave). But THAT is the problem. the weaponization of social terms in order to belittle others....not the labeling itself.

And i had assumed the reason why SOME people prefer to refer to themselves as Queer, or genderqueer is because: They dont want to overthink it, OR they are not sure themselves, OR it changes or is complicated OR its actually very specific but they dont want to say  this long run on sentence everytime someones asks so by calling themselves “queer” they are just saying “I’m not cishet” or whatever.

But yea like i didnt want to type this much but Its really freaking simple.

You define who you are and no one else, and you respect what other people tell you they are.

Each of us barely knows whats going on with our bodies and in our heads, its presumptuous to think you know someone else better and its fucking stupid to try to act like your LGBTQA experience is the same as others.

[elizabethminkel]

I appreciate your comments! But I feel like there are some misunderstandings of what we were saying here. That may be totally on us—we likely weren’t as clear as we could have been, and I apologize if that’s the case.

To me, “slash is over” doesn’t mean queer shipping and fic is over—it’s the idea that “slash fandom” as a concept is shakier than it was ten years ago, and certainly compared to twenty years ago. That doesn’t mean there’s less m/m shipping or fic these days—there’s clearly more than ever! (And while there are still major imbalances/biases in what fans focus on and write about, I love that there’s more f/f, more trans/nb/genderqueer characters, more ace/aro characters, or any other queer identies or desires expressed via fic and shipping—the current landscape of different ways of talking about gender and sexuality through fic would have blown my mind when I was a fic-reading teen two decades ago). Many fans clearly still organize themselves around types of ships, but I think “slash fandom” as an organizing concept, the way I knew it in my first 15 years in fandom, has broken down in a lot of spaces in recent years. I regularly encounter fans—often younger/newer fans—who don’t know the term “slash” at all, though they’re deep in m/m shipping and fic.  

I’m not sure where we said “everything is queer and queer friendly”—in fact, we explicitly said the opposite, expressing our disappointment that mainstream media hasn’t changed all that much since we both entered fandom in the 90s. I wish we’d had more time to get into the relatively messy intersections of shipping versus representation when it comes to queer ships these days, fwiw.

As far as the term “AFAB” goes, I used it twice, specifically in reference to the significant number of not-cis people assigned female at birth who I’ve seen talking about how they gained the language to explore, define, and talk about their gender identity in the past decade through fandom and m/m shipping—and maybe no longer feel they fit into that “women writing about men” slash narrative as a result. I didn’t use it as a shorthand for women—we mostly used “women” for that, talking about those classic (false, binary) assumptions about who writes slash, and other falsehoods embedded in these historical narratives. Again, I wish we’d had more time to go into this! Flourish is nonbinary, and while I don’t discuss my history or feelings about my gender ID publicly for personal reasons, there are elements of this convo I’d be comfortable having on the air in relation to the characters I read/write about. We got a letter that relates to some of this stuff, so maybe we’ll discuss it on the next episode.

And finally, I wish we’d had more time to talk about yearning! Because I actually think it’s directly connected to the “I want to be the one to remove the glass” element we were discusssing. In my opinion, yearning is fundamental to all queer art on some level, but there’s something specific about the relationship between yearning + shipping + fanfiction that’s different from enjoying/relating to a non-fandom work of fiction about queer characters. I don’t have this fully articulated but it’s something I want to keep thinking about, because this is also a theme that’s personally pretty important to me!  

Sorry for the lengthy response, but I want to make sure our positions and thoughts are as clear as they can be. It’s such a big, messy topic that there’s no way we could cover everything, or be as clear as we wanted to about the things we were able to cover—and we appreciate everyone’s understanding on those limitations as we continue this convo in future episodes. 

Episode 133: Slash: The Discourse

In Episode 133, Elizabeth and Flourish talk directly about a topic that creeps into a lot of Fansplaining discussions: slash fic and the people who write it. They walk through the history of “slash fandom” and the ways that early narratives about it endure to this day, and they dig into the fraught gender politics around slash, wrapping up with a discussion of whether the term means anything at all in 2020. They also read a slew of listener letters about the topic of the last episode, purity culture.

Click through to listen or read a full transcript on our site!

[genderfluxthings]

Pt 2: I am really scared of using different pronouns because that almost feels wrong or unnatural as well because I've gone 18 years being she/her and such. Everything feels confusing and I'm worried that if I do decide on something that it will change later or that people will think it's fake. I feel uncomfortable when doing things like trying on swim suits, bras, dresses, etc because it seems like they are meant for something not like me.

I can tell that you're having a lot of dysphoria and it's causing you problems. Maybe look into demigirl, Agender, greygender, bigender, and im sure you'll stumble upon other identies while researching these so make sure that if you do see a mention of a gender you haven't heard about that you research it. That was the only way I figured what my gender is. If you don't find something that fits right then try using genderqueer. It is an umbrella term but a lot of people use it. And if you think that your identity changes in the future, that's perfectly fine! Gender can be fluid so if it changes tell your friends and family that you identify differently (if they're accepting don't do it if they're not) and explain that this is just as real. I hope this helped some! Disclaimer: if you think something should be added or if I said something wrong feel free to correct me.