#gender is a construct i don't understand
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bunch of shinjiro doodles
#persona 3#llemon art#p3 reload#persona 3 reload#shinjiro aragaki#akishinji#akishinji sneak#i like to draw him and his face#transfem shinji is slowly taking me over#yayy#thinking's very much#first one is yukari and shinji ''outfit swap''#want to draw shinjiro in more fem clothes...#<---- has said this a billion times before#hes like if. a guy was a girl but also wasnt but also yes he is#gender is a construct i don't understand#:3#still queuing shit at an unorthodox hour#guh...
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btw sexuality labels do not have to be super specific with strict boundaries of what "qualifies" as being that sexuality. you do not have to base how you define your sexuality on the first description that comes up on google; history, culture, the nuances of personal experience, and what you feel connected to are just as important a part of how you choose to identify!
#brought to you by a lesbian continously annoyed at the 'non man loving non men' description of lesbianism#i used to think i had to wall myself off from being attracted to certain genders in order to continue identifying as a lesbian#but like. gender is weird and silly and so is sexuality!!#this isn't something i'm the most knowledgeable on but to my understanding before lesbian separatism the term lesbian was used a bit#differently than it is today - being attracted to men didn't make someone not a lesbian#which i like! cus i identify a lot with (especially femme) lesbian history#i like queer masculinity! in the particular way that is common for femme lesbians#to me being a femme lesbian describes my experience with the way i feel within myself and the way i love queer masculinity. it doesn't feel#contradictory to me to be in relationships with men. i luuuuv my boyfriends and#me being a lesbian doesn't mean i don't or that i don't see them as men or anything#i am not particularly good at the whole Social Constructs thing due to autism so that probly plays into it#it is all confusing and i don't necessarily understand some of it (even my own identities) but i go with what makes me feel like me#^-^#meg (boyfriend) saw this post and said ''i used to think i wasn't attracted to men. i was just looking at the wrong men''#which is sooo true
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It's honestly pretty frustrating sometimes how I feel like so many people say they love Martha, but mostly what I actually see people saying about Martha is how much she probably does/should hate the Doctor for not returning her crush, or sometimes how much people hate Blink/Family of Blood/Last of the Time Lords because they were hard for her.
And like, the former of those is frustrating because a) Nobody is obligated to return someone's romantic feelings, b) Being oblivious to someone having a crush on you might suck for the other person but is not actually a moral failing and c) Martha was sad about it but like. She didn't leave because she was furious at the Doctor for not returning her crush? She left because she knew her crush wasn't reciprocated and wasn't going to be, but couldn't get over it on her end while travelling with the Doctor. And also because the past year had been pretty traumatizing for everyone, including her and also the Doctor and also everyone else who was on that ship thing.
Anyways
I just wanted to talk for a bit about the things I like about Martha, or that are interesting, that are unrelated to those points above.
I think she's the first companion in New Who to join Unit, and I think still the only one to be a medical doctor with a strong scientific backing. Which is cool!
I think it's interesting that in the first episode she appears in, her family is shown to be kind of messy and kind of frustrating, and it feels like that's something she's a little glad to be getting away from for a bit when she travels with the Doctor (though it's not the reason she travels with them). And then, at the end of the season when her family is in danger she prioritizes their wellbeing enough to snap at the Doctor about it. If I remember correctly their phones were tapped or something and it wound up making things a bit worse, but I appreciate the nuances of her relationship with them and how important they are to her despite the messiness.
Despite all the ado made about her crush on the Doctor, I really loved how she really seemed to get the point of travelling with the Doctor. I think that she nailed both the joy and excitement of the unknown, and the compassion and sense of care that motivates the Doctor's travels, and which I think is vital to all of my favourite companions.
It also contrasts in interesting ways with how her personality shifts after she stops travelling with the Doctor - she still cares about people's wellbeing and seems to value the things she learned while travelling, but working with Unit and Torchwood does make her more military, and then of course doing freelance alien fighting (? or something?) in the End of Time.
I think Martha and the Doctor are an interesting duo because they contrast each other in interesting ways. They're both compassionate, hopeful but practical, and good at what they do, but they reflect those qualities in ways that almost, but don't quite, fit together nicely. They don't conflict, really, but they're not quite sustainable either.
They work well together and care about each other, but they're too similar in some ways and too different in others to ever quite see eye to eye, which is why they end up going in different directions. And I think that's not anyone's fault, or indicative of any deep flaws in either of them. Or even really a tragedy, because Martha seems to be doing new and interesting things every time we see her, with plenty of options available and a decent rapport with the Doctor whenever they show up.
Anyway this got way longer than I meant it to. Tldr: There are so many more interesting things to say about Martha than just "She must hate the Doctor". Here are some of them.
#Also I didn't have room here but. I understand hating the family of blood stuff but. John Smith is not the Doctor. That's the whole point#John Smith is absolutely rude to Martha and I dislike him as a person. But he is also not the Doctor#And I absolutely do not believe that the Doctor handpicked the persona and went “Yeah. Making him rude and racist and like guns”#I think they just got out the chameleon arch and said#“Here's the time and location that gives us the best shot at avoiding the family of blood. Give me and Martha random identities. Thanks”#That said it's actually not an episode I particularly like so I don't know why I'm rambling about it here#I get anxious about things where characters are Not Themselves and being rude and mean in ways they aren't#And also found the ending a little Too Much personally#Anyways I'm just monologuing now#Doctor Who#Doctor Who Meta#Martha Jones#I am talking#I am just some guy (gender neutral)#This post brought to you by another person joking about how Martha is so strong for putting up with the Doctor because of the crush stuff#And me as an aromantic not enjoying the implication that I am something to put up with and that the most interesting thing anyone can say#about a dynamic between two people is how much it sucks that one of them didn't know the other had a crush and 'led them on'#or whatever. But just ranting about that again didn't feel constructive so I tried to say more interesting things instead
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GOD there is a very big difference between "this character is autigender" and "this character is too autistic to understand gender". just like there is a very big difference between "this character is asexual" and "this character is too autistic to know what sex is"
and the first way to start to tell the difference between those things is to ask yourself, "am I acknowledging and respecting the complexities of this characters' identity + how that is portrayed, or am I saying this as a way to sideline or dismiss the way other fans are discussing their sexuality/gender"
#idk man#I'm autigender btw I just don't use that word so much anymore because I'm 21 and I'm tired#like. okay#I think Charlie Kelly is autigender because the show basically says as much#I just also happen to fluctuate between 'Charlie is transmasc' and 'Charlie is transfem'#and it's not 'too autistic to understand gender' it's. 'gender is a social construct and autism influences that'#you still have to respect. the gender#god I am too tired to explain this properly you either get what I mean or you don't#I'm going to bed
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ugh
saw a post with a quote that basically tidily summed up the rebuttal i'd half-started drafting to someone's post about how homosociality in tolkien ~queers amatonormativity~ [spoiler: on the contrary, male homosociality has been engaged in a three-way handshake with both misogynist heterosexuality and amatonormativity for literal millennia, and far from undermining them, more typically serves as essential reinforcement], so i was like, great, now i don't have to actually write that essay, i can just reblog this instead and tag it #tolkien! :)
but then, like a conscientious idiot, i went and dutifully looked up the book it was from, because i think it's irresponsible to cite excerpts whose context you aren't familiar with; and very predictably it turned out to be by a r*dfem and to make all sorts of claims abt so-called 'phallocratic culture' that i dislike, both as a trans person and ally myself and also as a logical thinker who can tell perfectly well from, you know, lived experience of our society that having a penis doesn't in fact confer ready social acceptance, never mind dominance, on people who don't otherwise look or act the part of a Proper Man, because ultimately what we reflexively defer to is a particular vibe, produced by a combination of physique and affect and other things besides, which may imply the presence of a penis but neither actually reveals nor necessitates one…
so like. ugh. probably i'm gonna have to write my own essay after all. :/
#i don't know much about marilyn frye and it doesn't look from a quick google as though she's on par with some of the really nasty t*rfs#but like. you don't have to be vitriolic to still be fundamentally approaching the world in a cissexist way#that gives too much credence to ideas abt Men and Women even as it resents them#like in this essay she comes out with shit like#'women generally have good experiential reason to associate negative values and feelings with penises'#and like. i don't identify as a woman but presumably a r*dfem would class me as a ''''female person'''' so like.#speaking from that classification—can't relate!!#(i mean‚ dgmw‚ i don't want to be dismissive of experiences that were forced‚ or coercive‚ or consensual but painful‚ or or or)#(and it's not that i haven't myself had experiences where people were bad about consent with me)#(but personally i would say i associate negative values and feelings with those *people* and their *behavior‚* not with Penises per se.)#and maybe it's just like. that i'm speaking after literally 50 years of gender progress#like frye does in fact concede that a reframed relationship to penises would be an improvement#(''if penises were enjoyed a good deal more and worshipped a great deal less‚ everyone's understanding of… power and of love would change#beyond recognition and much for the better'')#so maybe it's just like. hi that's me! i'm there! enjoying them! :)#but i just feel like. i don't need to be drawing from a well that takes cisheteronormative constructs this much for granted#and thinks the way to escape them is separatism#as if the knife that cuts Women away from Men weren't cutting some of us in half‚ not 2 mention being itself a cisheteronormative construct#but like. the decontextualized quote really was tempting… :/#anyway. some people vent about normal things; i vent about shit like this‚ i guess!
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nobody has ever been forced to stay in a menstrual hut because they had a cramp and got moody.
do you hear yourself when you threaten to violently torture and murder people (women, mainly feminists, let's be honest - those are often the people telling you "transfem periods" aren't a thing) in order to silence them about having a biological function they're violently oppressed for appropriated by the oppressor class? women and girls all over the world face horrors beyond your privileged imagination because the bleeding is seen as unclean.
women and girls who don't menstruate, such as my adoptive mother who was born without a uterus, don't pretend to have periods. so why do you? why is it that women and girls like my mother are able to comprehend that no uterus = no period, and able to recognize that those who DO have a uterus often face acts of violent oppression over the shedding of its lining, but you do not share that understanding? why is it only "transfems" who need to make this about themselves and silence women who object to the absurd audacity of appropriating sex-based oppression? if you are indeed a woman with no uterus, like my mother, where does this entitlement and violence come from?
you post depraved, graphically violent threats - the sort that have never crossed my mind even at my most furious - designed to silence an oppressed group (female human beings) about an aspect of their oppression, and then wonder why feminists are increasingly butting heads with your ideology? you can't show a modicum of understanding of the issues we face, but we are expected to cater to your feelings at every turn. and this is different from traditional sexism how?
I am asking genuinely and in good faith, despite the unsettling vitriol of your original post, why you think this is an acceptable and not wildly misogynistic thing to say. why does it warrant fantasies/threats of brutal homicide to state that a period requires a uterus from which to shed the lining? how is it hateful or bigoted to recognize the life-or-death consequences of ignoring this fact when it's still a massive aspect of female oppression globally?
hey, whoever tells you transfem periods aren't a thing is a dirty liar and i'll gut them and feed them their own intestines
#the ONLY thing that makes a period is shedding the uterine lining#moodiness is not a period and most women don't even get moody#not all women even get cramps!#do you understand how these posts come across to people who reject the gender construct#as male violence towards women?#for those of us who are gender abolitionists#who define man and woman as terms specifying sex and species like buck and doe#not gender terms#you are a human of the male sex who believes in the concept of gender identity#and presumably believes that woman is a gender term not a sex-and-species term#and thus identifies as a woman (gender) [or another gender label]#but radfems see gender as inherently patriarchal and harmful#and see “woman” as the same as “doe” - it means a human whose anatomy & physiology developed around the capacity to produce ova#(EVEN if that production fails to occur due to any number of medical reasons!!!)#just as a doe is a deer whose anatomy & physiology developed around the capacity to produce ova#even if...etc#the same way humans are bipedal is a perfectly reasonable thing to say even though some people are born without or lose 1 or both legs#a woman is female even though some are born without or lose the capacity to actually produce ova#there is no other qualifier to be a woman!#women are still women if they never produce a single ovum or have a single period!#women are still women if they don't remove body hair/wear makeup/have long hair/act “feminine” etc etc etc#the only requirement is being born the sex whose anatomy & physiology is *intended* to produce ova#all of this is also true of men (and bucks) with regard to sperm#so...#from this perspective can you understand how we see this and see male violence against women/girls?#or do I need to dive deeper in this explanation?#bc I can lol#menstruation#menstrual huts#period huts
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yea seriously whats with this site and protecting cis men's feelings on their masculinity
#while throwing transwomen under the bus villainizing their egg jokes#i don't understand gender except as a social construct but what's with the obsession#<- of defending a cis guy's masculinity to be a guy. there is literally no pressure for them to be trans why make it such a big deal#rambles i dont wanna rb that post idc
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#tag talk#today is a sheher day. I got ma'amed by a woman today. men seeing me as a woman is easy mode. women calling me sheher means I've succeeded#it's funny cause this past week I haven't even been shaving I've just been showing up to work mildly (mildly) scruffy and being he him#but like. this morning I woke up like alright were putting on the voice and showing up to work in purple lipstick. very cool#I looked very good today and kept the voice all day instead of dropping it halfway through like normal#idk. I need to shake things up regularly. if I stick with one thing too long people start to slot me into a preconceived notion.#people start to fit me into a traditional cultural role and ugh gross don't fucking do that to me.#I think I'm starting to get a better understanding of what my gender really is. because like. it's not actually fluid. it doesn't change#I'm in different aesthetic moods so I wanna look different. but my vibes are always consistent underneath.#people relate to me differently when I present differently but I relate to them the same either way. they see me as different but I'm not#I think that's one of the reasons I do appreciate the ability to look fem. because there's a certain kind of dynamic that people fall into#and it's a dynamic I don't get at all when I'm presenting masc and have my voice lower.#idk. I feel like when men aren't being misogynistic to me they're often more open and excited about things when I'm fem.#like. they will stop what they're doing and talk about their construction project. their old cars. their vintage tape deck.#it's an excitement and joy that is often socially unacceptable between men. but when they see me as a woman they feel comfortable with it#and ngl I love being able to morph into whatever people need in order to feel comfortable talking about things.
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I don't think there is a significant or notable number of people who believe transmascs are not oppressed.
I feel slightly insane just having to type this out, but this is rhetoric you inevitably come across if you discuss transfeminism on Tumblr.
The mainstream, cissexist understanding of transmasculine people is the Irreversible Damage narrative (one that's old enough to show up in Transsexual Empire as well) of transmascs as "misguided little girls", "tricked" into "mutilating themselves". It is a deliberately emasculating and transphobic narrative that very explicitly centers on oppression, even if the fevered imaginings misattribute the cause. As anyone who's dealt with the gatekeeping medical establishment knows, they are far from giving away HRT or even consults with both hands, and most transfems I know have a hard enough time convincing people to take DIY T advice, leave alone "tricking" anyone into top surgery.
Arguably, the misogyny that transmasculine folks experience is the defining narrative surrounding their existence, as transmasculinity is frequently and erroneously attributed to "tomboyish women" who resent their position in the patriarchy so much they seek to transition out of it. This rhetoric is an invisiblization of transmasculinity, constructed deliberately to preserve gendered verticality, for if it were possible to "gain status" under the sexed regime, its entire basis, its ideological naturalization, would fall apart.
Honestly, the actual discussions I see are centered around whether "transmisogyny" is a term that should apply to transmascs and transfems alike. While I understand the impetus for that discussion, I feel like the assertion that transmisogyny is a specific oppression that transfems experience for our perceived abandonment of the "male sex" is often conflated with the incorrect idea that we believe transmasculine people are not oppressed at all. This is not true, and we understand, rather acutely, that our society is entirely organized around reproductive exploitation. That is, in fact, the source of transfeminine disposability!
I know I'm someone who "just got here" and there is a history here that I'm not a part of, but so much of that history is speckled with hearsay and fabrication that I can't even attempt to make sense of it. All I know is that I, in 2024, have been called a revived medieval slur for effeminate men by people who attribute certain beliefs to me based on my being a trans woman who is also a feminist, and I simply do not hold those views, nor do I know anyone who sincerely does.
If you're going to attempt to discredit a transfeminist, or transfeminism in general, then please at least do us the courtesy of responding to things we actually say and have actually argued instead of ascribing to us phantom ideologies in a frankly conspiratorial fashion. I also implore people to pay attention to how transphobic rhetoric operates out in the wider world, how actual reactionaries talk about and think of trans people, instead of fixating so hard on internecine social media clique drama that one enters an alternate reality--a phantasm, as Judith Butler would put it.
Speaking of which--do y'all have any idea how overrepresented transmascs are in trans studies and queer theory? Can we like, stop and reckon with reality-as-it-is, instead of hallucinating a transfeminine hegemony where it doesn't exist? I'm aware a lot of their output isn't particularly explicative on the material realities of transmasculine oppression despite their prominence in the academy, but that is ... not the fault of trans women, who face extremely harsh epistemic injustice even in trans studies.
The actual issue is how invisiblized transmasculine oppression is and how the epistemicide that transmasculine people face manifests as a refusal to differentiate between the misogyny all women face, reproductive exploitation in particular, and the contours of violence, erasure, and oppression directed at specifically transmasculine people.
You will notice that is a society-wide problem, motivated by a desire to erase the possibilities of transmasculinity, to the point of not even being willing to name it. You will notice that I am quite familiar with how this works, and how it's completely compatible with a materialist transfeminist framework that analyzes how our oppression is--while distinct--interlinked and stems from the same root.
I sincerely hope that whoever needs to see this post sees it, and that something productive--more productive dialogue, at least--can arise from it.
#transfeminism#gender is a regime#materialist feminism#lesbian feminism#sex is a social construct#social constructionism#feminism#transmisogyny#anti transmasculinity#transphobia#erasure#epistemic injustice#epistemicide#queer theory#queer studies#queer academia
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I think about this image a lot. This is an image from the Aurat March (Women's March) in Karachi, Pakistan, on International Women's Day 2018. The women in the picture are Pakistani trans women, aka khwaja siras or hijras; one is a friend of a close friend of mine.
In the eyes of the Pakistani government and anthropologists, they're a "third gender." They're denied access to many resources that are available to cis women. Trans women in Pakistan didn't decide to be third-gendered; cis people force it on them whether they like it or not.
Western anthropologists are keen on seeing non-Western trans women as culturally constructed third genders, "neither male nor female," and often contrast them (a "legitimate" third gender accepted in its culture) with Western trans women (horrific parodies of female stereotypes).
There's a lot of smoke and mirrors and jargon used to obscure the fact that while each culture's trans women are treated as a single culturally constructed identity separate from all other trans women, cis women are treated as a universal category that can just be called "women."
Even though Pakistani aurat and German Frauen and Guatemalan mujer will generally lead extraordinarily different lives due to the differences in culture, they are universally recognized as women.
The transmisogynist will say, "Yes, but we can't ignore the way gender is culturally constructed, and hijras aren't trans women, they're a third gender. Now let's worry less about trans people and more about the rights of women in Burkina Faso."
In other words, to the transmisogynist, all cis women are women, and all trans women are something else.
"But Kat, you're not Indian or Pakistani. You're not a hijra or khwaja sira, why is this so important to you?"
Have you ever heard of the Neapolitan third gender "femminiello"? It's the term my moniker "The Femme in Yellow" is derived from, and yes, I'm Neapolitan. Shut up.
I'm going to tell you a little bit about the femminielli, and I want you to see if any of this sounds familiar. Femminielli are a third gender in Neapolitan culture of people assigned male at birth who have a feminine gender expression.
They are lauded and respected in the local culture, considered to be good omens and bringers of good luck. At festivals you'd bring a femminiello with you to go gambling, and often they would be brought in to give blessings to newborns. Noticing anything familiar yet?
Oh and also they were largely relegated to begging and sex work and were not allowed to be educated and many were homeless and lived in the back alleys of Naples, but you know we don't really like to mention that part because it sounds a lot less romantic and mystical.
And if you're sitting there, asking yourself why a an accurate description of femminiello sounds almost note for note like the same way hijras get described and talked about, then you can start to understand why that picture at the start of this post has so much meaning for me.
And you can also start to understand why I get so frustrated when I see other queer people buy into this fool notion that for some reason the transes from different cultures must never mix.
That friend I mentioned earlier is a white American trans woman. She spent years living in India, and as I recal the story the family she was staying with saw her as a white, foreign hijra and she was asked to use her magic hijra powers to bless the house she was staying in.
So when it comes to various cultural trans identities there are two ways we can look at this. We can look at things from a standpoint of expressed identity, in which case we have to preferentially choose to translate one word for the local word, or to leave it untranslated.
If we translate it, people will say we're artificially imposing an outside category (so long as it's not cis people, that's fine). If we don't, what we're implying, is that this concept doesn't exist in the target language, which suggests that it's fundamentally a different thing
A concrete example is that Serena Nanda in her 1990 and 2000 books, bent over backwards to say that Hijras are categorically NOT trans women. Lots of them are!
And Don Kulick bent over backwards in his 1998 book to say that travesti are categorically NOT trans women, even though some of the ones he cited were then and are now trans women.
The other option, is to look at practice, and talk about a community of practice of people who are AMAB, who wear women's clothing, take women's names, fulfill women's social roles, use women's language and mannerisms, etc WITHIN THEIR OWN CULTURAL CONTEXT.
This community of practice, whatever we want to call it - trans woman, hijra, transfeminine, femminiello, fairy, queen, to name just a few - can then be seen to CLEARLY be trans-national and trans-cultural in a way that is not clearly evident in the other way of looking at things.
And this is important, in my mind, because it is this axis of similarity that is serving as the basis for a growing transnational transgender rights movement, particularly in South Asia. It's why you see pictures like this one taken at the 2018 Aurat March in Karachi, Pakistan.
And it also groups rather than splits, pointing out not only points of continuity in the practices of western trans women and fa'afafines, but also between trans women in South Asia outside the hijra community, and members of the hijra community both trans women and not.
To be blunt, I'm not all that interested in the word trans woman, or the word hijra. I'm not interested in the word femminiello or the word fa'afafine.
I'm interested in the fact that when I visit India, and I meet hijras (or trans women, self-expressed) and I say I'm a trans woman, we suddenly sit together, talk about life, they ask to see American hormones and compare them to Indian hormones.
There is a shared community of practice that creates a bond between us that cis people don't have. That's not to say that we all have the exact same internal sense of self, but for the most part, we belong to the same community of practice based on life histories and behavior.
I think that's something cis people have absolutely missed - largely in an effort to artificially isolate trans women. This practice of arguing about whether a particular "third gender" label = trans women or not, also tends to artificially homogenize trans women as a group.
You see this in Kulick and Nanda, where if you read them, you could be forgiven for thinking all American trans women are white, middle class, middle-aged, and college-educated, who all follow rigid codes of behavior and surgical schedules prescribed by male physicians.
There are trans women who think of themselves as separate from cis women, as literally another kind of thing, there are trans women who think of themselves as coterminous with cis women, there are trans women who think of themselves as anything under the sun you want to imagine.
The problem is that historically, cis people have gone to tremendous lengths to destroy points of continuity in the transgender community (see everything I've cited and more), and particularly this has been an exercise in transmisogyny of grotesque levels.
The question is do you want to talk about culturally different ways of being trans, or do you want to try to create as many neatly-boxed third genders as you can to prop up transphobic theoretical frameworks? To date, people have done the latter. I'm interested in the former.
I guess what I'm really trying to say with all of this is that we're all family y'all.
#transgender#third gender#hijras#femminielli#trans women are women#trans solidarity#trans rights#transmisogyny#transunity#transunitism#this is what trans unity looks like
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the frustrating thing about 'gender critical' as a term is that, like all socially constructed systems of cataloging people into different groups, i Do think it is worthwhile to critique gender as a system. but when people say gender critical they're not talking about stuff like 'maybe instead of putting an X gender markers on IDs we should instead try and push back against the idea that you need to legally declare a gender to the government' they're talking about stuff like 'we need to get rid of gender so we can focus on the TRUE and CORRECT categorizations for people: the Immutable Biological Truth of how doctors think your secondary sex characteristics look.'
and i don't know about you but that doesn't feel very 'critical' of gender to me, that just feels like fully consenting to and reinforcing the oldest and most harmful understanding of gender that our society has to offer. but you guys do you. surely this time championing the idea that men and women are fundamentally different creatures will lead to an improvement in quality of life for women THIS time.
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Lately I've been dipping my toe into the mess that is transandrophobia discourse, and in the process I've been presented with one question in many forms:
"Do trans men experience misogyny?"
My initial answer was "these terms are all theoretical frameworks for a vast range of human experiences, why would you choose to frame your pre-transition experiences as that of a woman?" This makes sense to me, but clearly isn't satisfactory to many of the people sending me anons. As much as I might want to use my own life as a case study, I can't very well tell these people in my asks box "no, you've never experienced something that could be categorized as misogyny." Still, the question bothers me.
I think that's because the question obfuscates the actual debate. It's clear to me the question we are debating is not one of "experience" but "authority." That is:
"Do (binary) trans men understand what it's like to be a woman?"
My answer? No.
How can I justify that when we have, since birth, been raised as women? Well, because we also have, since birth, been trans men. If we cast aside the idea of transness as a modern social construct or anything other than an innate and biological reality, this has to be true. Even before you ever came out to yourself, you were transgender. Transphobia has dictated every moment of your life. Your idea of what "womanhood" is is not at all the same as a woman's, be it cis or trans. Why? Because a woman does not react to "being a woman" with the dysphoria, dissociation, and profound sense of wrongness that you do. [If you do not experience these things, a cis or trans woman, at the very least, does not identify as a binary trans man.] A woman sincerely identifies as a woman, and identity plays a pivotal role in how we absorb societal messaging.
Let's take homophobia as an example. While any queer person has probably experienced targeted episodes of bigotry, the majority of bigotry we experience must necessarily be broad and social. Boys learn to fear becoming a faggot as a group, but the boy who is a faggot will internalize those messages in a completely different way to the boys who only need learn to assert the heterosexual identity already inherent in them through violence. All of them are suffering to some extent, but their experiences are not at all equivalent. This is despite the fact that they've all absorbed the same message, maybe even at the same moment, through the same events. Still, we don't say that a straight boy knows what it is like to be a gay boy. Similarly, cis women do not know what it is like to be a trans man despite being fed the same transphobic messaging in a superficially identical context. It isn't a stretch to say the same can apply to misogyny.
Because I can't speak for you, I'll use myself as an example for a moment. I'll give my bonafides: I am a gender-nonconforming, T4T queer, white, binary trans man. I am on T, and I have recently come out to my family. I do not pass. My career as a comic writer is tied to my identity as a trans man. I can confidently say I have never been impacted by misogyny the same way as my friends who actually identify as women. This manifested early on as finding it easy to shrug off the messaging that I needed to be X or Y way to be a woman. In fact, most gender roles slid off my back expressly because breaking them gave me euphoria. I was punished in many ways for this, but being this sort of cis woman did help me somewhat. It's easy to be "one of the guys" in a social climbing sense if you really do feel more comfortable as a man. It also helped me disregard misogyny aimed at me or others because it seemed like an shallow form of bigotry. It was something you could shrug off, but it was important for building "unity" among women. I thought this must be the case for all women, that we all viewed misogyny as a sort of "surface level" bigotry. However, for whatever conditional status I gained in this role, there was a clear message that if I did "become" a man, every non-conformist trait about me would just become a grotesque and parodic masculinity.
That was the threat that was crushing me, destroying my identity and self esteem. That was what I knew intimately through systemic, verbal, physical, and sexual abuse. I could express my nonconformity as a cis woman, but if I took it so far as to transition to male? I would be a pathetic traitor, a social outcast. I truly believe that throughout my life people were able to see that I was not just a failed woman, but an emasculated man.
I do partly feel that the sticking point for many is the idea that the sexual abuse suffered by trans men is inherent to womanhood, and therefore inexplicable if trans men are men from birth. While this disregards the long history of sexual abuse of young boys, especially minority boys, I do see the emotional core. I'll offer that the sexual abuse I suffered was intrinsically linked to my emmasculation, my boyishness, despite the fact that I was not out to myself or anyone else. I believe many trans men have suffered being the proxy for cis women's desire for retribution against cis men, or for cis men and women's desire for an eternally nubile young boy. I also believe they have suffered corrective assault that attempts to push them back into womanhood, which in itself is an experience unique to transness rather than actual womanhood.
I'll note quickly that many, many trans men cannot relate to the idea of feeling confident and above it all when it comes to womanhood. Many of you probably tried desperately to conform, working every moment to convince yourself you were a woman and to perfectly inhabit that identity. I definitely experienced this as well (though for me it was specifically attempting to conform to butchness) but I can concede many of you experienced it more than I did. I still believe that this desperate play-acting is also not equivalent to true womanhood. It is a uniquely transgender experience, one that shares much more in common with trans women desperately attempting to conform to manhood than with true womanhood.
One key theme running through the above paragraphs is the idea that "womanhood" is synonymous with "suffering." A trans man must know what it is like to be a woman because he suffers like one. It should be noted that actual womanhood is not a long stretch of suffering. It often involves joy, euphoria, sisterhood, a general love and happiness at being a woman. It wasn't until I admitted to myself I had never been a woman that I was able to see how the women in my life were not women out of obligation, but because they simply were. The idea that you are a woman because you suffer is more alligned with radfem theory than any reality of womanhood.
When I admitted my identity to myself I was truly faced with the ways that my ability to stand up to misogyny did not equate to being anti-misogynist. I was giddy to finally be able to admit to being a man, and suddenly all that messaging that "slid off my back" was a useful tool in my arsenal. Much like cis gay men feel compelled to assert their disgust for vaginas and women after a life of being compelled towards heterosexuality, I felt disgust and aversion to discussions of womanhood as an identity. I didn't even want to engage with female fictional characters. I viewed other people's sincere expressions of their own womanhood as a coded dismissal of my identity. Like many people before and after, I made women into the rhetorical device that had oppressed me. Not patriarchy, not transphobia, but womanhood and women broadly. It wasn't explicit bigotry, but the effects were the same. I had to unlearn this with the help of my bigender partner, who felt unsettled and hurt by the way I could so easily turn "woman" into nothing but a theoretical category which represented my personal suffering.
This brings me to another point: I sometimes receive messages from nonbinary trans mascs telling me that it's absurd to think they don't understand womanhood and identify with misogyny in a deeper way. I would agree that, if you sincerely identify in some capacity as a woman, you are surely impacted by misogyny in a way I am not. However, why are you coming to the defense of binary trans men like me? Less charitably, why are you projecting a female identity on us? Perhaps my experience frustrates you so deeply because we simply do not have the same experience at all. Perhaps we are not all that united by our agab, by our supposed female socialization.
So, no. I do not believe that binary trans men know what it's like to be women. I don't believe we are authorities on womanhood. I do not believe that when a trans woman endeavors to talk about transmisogyny, your counterargument about your own experiences of misogyny is useful. I ESPECIALLY do not believe that it is in any way valid to say that you are less misogynist, less prone to being misogynist, or-- god forbid-- INCAPABLE of misogyny because you were raised as a girl. I also don't believe your misogyny is equivalent to that of a woman's internalized misogyny in form or impact.
For as much as many in this movement downplay privilege as merely "conditional," those conditions do exist. They do place you firmly in the context of the rest of the world. Zoom out and look at the history of oppressed men, and you'll find the same reactionary movement repeated over and over. Attacking the women in your community for not being soft enough, nice enough, patient enough, rather than fighting the powers that be. Why do I believe your identity is more alligned with cis manhood than any form of womanhood? Because this song and dance has been done a hundred times before by men of every stripe. Transphobia is real, and your life experience has been uniquely defined by it since birth. This is a thing to rally around, to fight against, but you all have fallen for a (trans)misogynistic phantasm in your efforts at self-actualization. You are not the first, and you will not be the last. Get out of this pipeline before it's too late.
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my kingdom for people On Line to understand that yes, it is still sexual harassment if you're casting yourself as the receiver and not the aggressor in the hypothetical scenario you've constructed. in particular it is still sexual harassment to cold approach butches and masc dykes with shit like omg pin me down step on me. yes, even when you mean it as a compliment. yes, even if you're complimenting them on something else at the same time. i would encourage you in fact to try Not casting people you don't really know in sexual roles based off of their body type or gender presentation. maybe do some self-work instead. go to therapy. anything
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wondering about whether you could rec some "romance is a social construct" texts? ofc it is, but i like having books and articles to reference/learn specifics from/see how these ideas have developed.
Sure! Here's a quick reading list. Bear in mind that I am not a professional historian and my reading on this subject is a little diffuse. I'm not tackling the behavioral ecology stuff right now because a) I don't have a more direct book rec off the top of my head than Evolution's Rainbow, which is not technically focused on social monogamy, and also b) I approach that whole field with my eyes wide open for people letting their own perspectives and cultural views get in the way of their observations of animals, and I do not have the energy to go deal with it right now.
If you're going to read two books, read these two:
Stephanie Coontz, Marriage, A History: how love conquered marriage. 2006. All of Coontz' work, having to do with the social construction of the family, is relevant reading to this question (and I'd also recommend The Nostalgia Trap, because the historical context of how we conceptualize families is a major part of the construction of romantic love), but this one is most focused on the social construction of romantic love specifically and what it has replaced. Coontz is, I will disclose cheerfully, a major formative influence on my thinking.
Moira Wegel, Labor of Love: The Invention of Dating. 2016. Exactly what it says on the tin; focuses more closely on the modern invention of dating and romance.
Other useful readings to help inform your understanding of different ways that various people have conceptualized sex, sexuality, society and long-term connection include:
George Chauncey, Why Marriage? 2015. Chauncey is best known for Gay New York, which also offers a useful history of the way that relationship models and social constructs for understanding homosexuality changed among men having sex with men c. 1900 to 1950. This book, published just before Obergefell v. Hodges, is a discussion of why contemporary queer rights organizations focused on same-sex marriage as an activism plank in the wake of AIDS organizing. I find it really useful to read queer history when I'm thinking about how we understand and construct the concept of romantic relationships, because queers complicate the mainstream, heteronormative concepts of what marriage and romantic relationships actually are. More importantly, queer activist organizing around marriage has played a major role in shaping our collective understanding of romance and marriage in the past twenty years.
Elizabeth Abbott, A History of Celibacy, 2000. In order to understand how various cultures construct understandings of marriage and spousal relationships, it can be illustrative to consider what the people who are explicitly not participating in the institution are doing and why not. I found this an interesting pass over historical and social institutions that forbid (or forbade) marriage with a discussion about general trends driving these institutions, individuals, and movements towards celibacy.
Eleanor Janega, The Once and Future Sex, 2023. This is a very pointed historical look at gender roles, concepts of beauty, and concepts of sex, attraction, and marriage among medieval Europeans with an extended meditation on what ideas have and have not changed between that time and today. I include this work because I think a deep dive into medieval notions of courtly romance is useful, partly because it is an important origin of our modern notion of romantic love and partly because it is so usefully and starkly different from that modern notion! Sometimes the best way to understand the cultural construction of ideas in your own society is to go look at someone else's and see where things are the same versus different.
It's a mish-mash of recommendations, and I'm reaching more for books that have stuck with me over the years than a clean scholarly approach to the subject. I hope other folks will chime in for you with their own recommendations!
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look, it's pretty straightforward: terfs hate men, and see trans women as men; they also have some additional hatred for trans women because they see them as men who are trying to infiltrate women's spaces. This pathway to transphobia is what makes them different from e.g. religiously-motivated transphobes, or the whole "anti gender ideology" far right who see feminism + gay rights + trans rights + immigration as part of a conspiracy by (((elites))) to undermine the white race. Terfs are worth remarking on because they are a "left" path to transphobia rather than a right-wing path, and their ideology (grounded in patriarchy theory, the analysis that men constitute a ruling class over women, or possibly a colonial power) has some currency in even the trans-inclusive left.
I don't really understand the utility of denying this very obvious fact. I guess some people want to keep around a (stupid) politics based on seeing cis men as uniformly an enemy. But like you don't need to do that at all lol, and it's probably impossible to construct a consistently trans-inclusive politics on the basis of patriarchy theory.
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genuine question regarding the "women are female people" post. trying to understand the radfem mindset because I don't agree with y'all on most things, but I understand your need to find safety and acceptance within the patriarchy's oppression/danger. I am female but not a woman. I was never socialized as one either. I feel like biological socialization piece goes out the window in my case. Biologically yes, I am female, but socially no one, including myself, would ever view me as a woman or place me through the same social oppression that women face, nor will I experience or have experienced any of the good parts of womanhood. I feel no desire to, because despite sharing the same biology, we are not socially the same. I feel like, in this experience, theres a stark divide between the social category of "women" and biological category of "female." What is your take on this, I'm curious?
The crucial issue here is that you’re conflating women and femininity. You say there’s a difference between women and females, when you instead mean there’s a difference between feminine women and non-feminine women. You believe women are socially constructed, when you instead mean femininity is socially constructed.
The only way you could think that your non-conformance to femininity indicated that you were not a woman, is if you believed femininity was innate and inseparable from women. This is not only an unabashed display of bioessentialism, but a reinforcement of the same sex-based roles and sexist stereotypes that gender ideologues purport to be defying.
In case you don’t know, the concepts of femininity and masculinity were created solely to enforce female subjugation and male domination (elaboration here). Therefore, nothing is more misogynistic or in direct contradiction to the radical feminist goal of gender abolition than claiming women are defined by the very social construct created to subjugate them, rather than by their biological sex.
I’ll be honest, I feel increasingly irritated and hopeless every time I receive these messages of “I���m not a woman because I don’t conform to society’s sexist, outdated idea of what women are.” How can you not see how backwards it is to believe your conformity to a demographic’s harmful stereotypes is what determines whether you belong to that demographic? In what other circumstances is this ever the case?
This is a genuine question: why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that you’re a gender-non-conforming woman? Why must you go through all these mental cartwheels and act as though being a woman is contingent on how others view you, or how you socially conduct yourself, or what degree of oppression you face? What benefit do you see in defining women by the social construct of femininity (hierarchical, prescriptive, arbitrary) rather than defining them as female (non-hierarchical, descriptive, concrete)?
Much of my frustration stems from the knowledge that radical feminists and gender ideologues actually hold similar views on the concepts of women and men, until they diverge at one crucial, irreconcilable point:
Both radical feminists and gender ideologues acknowledge the existence of regressive stereotypes attributed to the sexes. But where radical feminists seek to remove the stereotypes from the sex, gender ideologues instead, quite stupidly, seek to remove the sex from the stereotypes.
In short, I still consider you a woman completely deserving of access to women’s spaces, because being a woman does not, and should not, have any other prerequisites other than being an adult, a human, and a female. There are not, and should not be, any behaviors, aesthetics, feelings, or non-biological characteristics that determine whether you’re a woman. There are no gendered brains; there are no gendered souls. Being a woman is an innate, neutral, and non-prescriptive reality, no different than having freckles or brown eyes or hooked noses.
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