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blindtaleteller · 1 year ago

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Just out of curiosity... Is it really in character of Loki to replace Odin with magic like he does at the end of TDW?.. A part of me feels like it is tainted with hasty writing (which fits the narrative regarding how this was a change mid-production). If Loki truly survived the attack by the Cursed, what seems most in character for him to do? Getting on the throne of Asgard doesn't seem that likely to me, to be honest..

This one is gonna be long I think, because asking that particular question, tells me you've missed a few things. Nothing wrong with that; it happens. (I do know a lot but even I forget to add or remind myself of certain bits too now and again: which is yet another reason why I do watch and re-watch the content over and again, and seek out creators and actors interviews from the era from varied angles.)

I wish the current creators paid a decent fraction as much attention mind you, but that' as whole other thing and annoyance.

Anyway! Here we go again~

It does make the most sense choice wise, actually; that Loki would take the throne in 2013: and it has nothing to do with wanting the throne itself as implied and said outright repeatedly by current creators and their "scripts."

While there are a LOT of reasons to do so with what's going on in the story both immediate in Thor the Dark World itself and otherwise? Most of them, and the reason why Loki absolutely would keep the throne for the next five years boils down to the same reason used to attempt to execute him on his return, and ultimately put him in the dungeon to end up as the major reason Asgard's people were spared a prolonged siege at a time when their defenses had been almost entirely decimated.

The ultimate answer boils down to the not-so-hidden Chekhov's Gun for the overall story of the first sequence/series of MCU films.

I say it that way in particular, because in this case.. they started setting up for it back in 2009-11 with Captain America the First Avenger and the first Thor movie as well. Iron Man 2 released in 2010, had some part setting up details for Avengers 2012 as well; though some of them are mostly less important in regards to this particular ask, for the era and subject we're talking about here.

They did this incredibly well though, when you look at the way the set up was constructed.

Basically, there are two layers of story being told in most Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies of the era; if you didn't notice.

1. Local Story, the story that wholly belongs to the title; era and or immediate characters.

2. Universal and or Overall Story belonging to the universe in which those local stories are taking place.

Remember this guy? I'm pretty sure you do but..

One of the things that people love to forget (or more often pass over as taken for granted) is that Thanos is the person who ultimately snatched Loki up, purely with the intent of getting another stone (Tesseract) into his hands. (Of course there was never any promise Loki would rule over 8 billion rather than 4 billion either, and well. That kind of action; taking half the population then rather than 2018: is established repeatedly as being very much in Thanos' character too.)

I say one of though, because the fact that the Mind Stone (Scepter) was in Thanos hands well before that was established in the very first scenes of Avengers 2012.. before they even put a single character on screen.

In a scene that, tells the viewer outright why Loki was the one chosen; and what they want. This scene is a lot more than just a foreword to catch up viewers who hadn't seen Captain America or Thor at the time. This is also the first not-so-subtle mention of their Universal Story Chekhov's Gun, Thanos.

To break it down for you real quick:

------pre-Universal story set up.

1 - (2010) Tony Stark creates a new-to-earth element (Badassium.. lol I didn't name it, they did) replacing the palladium in the reactor in his chest with this element. Black Widow (Natasha Romanov) is introduced.

----this sets up in minor ways for the Mind Stone: a more believable reason and mechanic for Stark being immune to the Scepter being used on him at the top of the tower at the beginning of the Battle for New York. (There are other mechanics like this set up in the previous IM movies as well: including his brief float in space otherwise ignoring physics of human body and suit versus a lack of atmosphere, gravity or air pressure. [IM1]) But it also introduces Nat and her position in SHIELD into the Universe, rather than just throwing her on screen in A1.

2 - (R May 2011)This film is the heavy lifter as far as Universal story goes. It doesn't just introduce one or two major characters in the Avengers; but THREE of next movie's three major, main characters and their place in the universe are introduced and built: As well as giving the first glimpses of the Universe at large.

There is a reason why Loki and especially Asgard where he is after Thor's banishment, has more screen time than Thor in the opening title film, and the Universal Story is that reason.

(This one is going to be among the largest, because it contains some of the intent behind the character as he is in the MCU.)

FEIGE: "The movie, very much, is an origin of Loki, almost as much as it is an origin of Thor. We had to ride that balance." BRANNAGH: " I think the connection, if there is one, is that the stakes are high. So, in something like Henry IV or Henry V, where you’re wondering if that young prince could be the king and whether he’s the right man for the job. That story arc of the flawed hero who must earn the right to be king is in our piece, but what’s key is the stakes. There, it’s Europe and England, and here, it’s the universe. When that family has problems, everybody else is affected. If Thor throws a fit and is yelling at his father and is banished, suddenly the worlds are unstable." I: Can you talk about casting Tom Hiddleston for Loki? BRANNAGH: "From the performance point of view, we needed somebody who was complex and could convey intelligence. There was a constant conversation between us all about whether it was a good thing to keep the question mark over the character of Loki throughout. Is he bad? Does he have a plan? Does he love his brother? Does he hate his brother? Does he hate his father? Is this happening before our very eyes? How does he truly react to the secrets and lies that emerge, in the course of the story? So, you needed someone who could be adept at putting on all those masks and making it seem seamless." [Link to the full Interview HERE.]

Granted Brannagh summarized Thor's part IN throwing that Universe into chaos more than a bit, but yeah. (his shit fit from a less personal view included breaking peace treaty with a no border crossing agreement between two entire worlds, threatening and then killing the residents in the process, and then throwing another fit in defense of that TO get banished: and furthering that later on as the source of that problem through the extra treason of ignoring his very and repeatedly stated light punishment for that first set of acts of treason: by attempting to return from that punishment against the order of not one but two kings [interim and prior] to have the Destroyer sent after him only then.)

As you can see through Brannagh's words in particular though; Thor as a movie (and Asgard in particular) was aimed as one of the major contributing factors and powers in the MCU Universe and Universal Story from concept one.

Asgard (and T1 as a result) as a power and society was set up and built as a major pivoting point and joint for the Universal Story, with all the power, knowledge, flaws, limitations societal and otherwise needed to forward that story.

Brannagh was not just and only aware of that and the scope to which a universal monarchy and having that monarchy including Thor and Loki as main characters would stretch: he and the creators of Thor and the Universe including Feige were VERY aware of it.

And it kept all the way through to IW and EndGame, and would have even if Loki had not kept the throne.. if at a much higher cost. (We'll get to that; though I'm betting with this taken into account you can figure out some of why.)

All that kept to one side, this film introduced Asgard's current ability as a technologically advanced Conquerer-type Imperialist society, rather than gods; but also and temporarily disabled the Bifrost as their most used and fastest known means to deliver larger numbers to Earth, at the time of the movie's release. It likewise released Loki for his role in the Avengers 2012 and in their Universe at large: and set up for Guardians of the Galaxy in subtler ways to start off the Other and Thanos as the ones conducting the Invasion and looking for the Infinity Stones.

Needless to say, juggling all that in one film before the Universal Story hit, made giving their other introduction and Universal story mechanic on the Earthen end a little hard to squeeze in; but they did manage to introduce both Hawkeye and Selvig in the same movie setting on top of that: and added the end credit scene to establish further connection during Thor's banishment: by further involving SHIELD in his and especially Mjolnir's arrival.

Like I said.. heavy lifter of a film. Brannagh did a beyond amazing job with everything he was made to juggle both in film and setting up for the next two: one of which was in production at the same time as the one he was chosen to direct.

3. (R July 2011 [1940s]) Coming out later that year, CA:tFA took the next (and the one at the time unknown previous) page that the end credit scene showed us in that set up, to establish how the cube and Stone got there, a feel for it's danger in the wrong hands and how it ended up on Earth still in 2012 at all: again tying to SHIELD as Earth's portion of that Universal Story, using Asgard's pivot point to advance the plot and add the final Avenger (which lol at the title 'The First Avenger' for that reason and others: someone had a giggle at the name I'm sure). The Tesseract first seen in the end credit scene of Thor; is properly introduced immediately, as A. having been in Asgard's hands before leaving it in the charge of humans, and B. Stolen by Schmidt who knows and tells us this as he's stealing it from it's guardians descendants (right out of their ancestor's grave and dead hands) for Nazi/Hydra gain. The Tesseract (along with Schmidt and Rogers) is lost somewhere over the Atlantic.

----this movie sets up quite a few more things, and uses that gap in time to do so without need for a whole other movie. Cap's presence in 2012. What's really fun and interesting though, is just how afr ahead this one was running it's projected Universal Story aim: even if only in The Tesseract being reclaimed by SHIELD and Hydra sometime between 1945 and 1970 just before Tony's birth in that same year of 1970 (remember, Hydra were unidentified as being in SHIELD all the way up to 2014.)

Hydra's existence, threat, and eventual reveal in CA:TWS resulting in the Mind Stone they stole* while within SHIELD after 2012 to only be recovered three years after that in 2015. Bucky Barnes was introduced in this first film; and while his character on it's own doesn't do a whole lot for the Universal story.. where and what organization he's found in that he resurfaces as forced a part of, does: as the Universal Story in CAtWS connects from CAtFA and Avengers, to GoTG; and leads straight to Ultron where it's finally recovered, and more importantly to revealing the Infinity Stones for what they are.. as well as telling the viewer outright that of the six stones as of Age of Ultron?

We have already seen four of those six stones on screen.. and, three of them have been in Loki's presence if not directly in his hands as of 2013 the year after 2012. (Tesseract twice, Scepter, and Ather: and in that chronological order.)

(*Side note: Errrr, is it stealing when Hydra were running SHIELD more than Fury at that stage after Howard Stark's death: and they just kinda handed it to Rumlow and Pierce without question for two years? idk, that's more than a little iffy in a lot of ways lol!)

Anyway, again that pivoting point is straight-away Asgard, and Odin in particular. Though they make when it arrived on Earth ambiguous in CA:TFA, the Other's dialogue from that opening Avengers 2012 scene mentioned way up there at the top? Tells us outright that the Tesseract was left there AFTER the war with Jotunheim.

The line among the few I'm talking about in particular is:

" The Tesseract has awakened. [...] But our ally [Loki] knows it's workings as they never will. " - The Other, Avengers 2012, Opening Scene

(Another set of side notes: the inflection and especially emphasis being where it is in that dialogue was pretty interesting and a bit odd back then, prior to Thanos being properly unveiled as the Other's keeper two years later. Right away that opener tells you outright what they want from Earth at that moment[tesseract & the stones], the fact that the one speaking isn't in charge either [Thanos being behind the Other and Chitauri], that they are not the only army available to them [he says our Chitauri, not our army or armies: see Ronan the Accuser] and that they're willing to go war and kill on an interstellar level to get it [self explanatory].)

(There's also how Schmidt disappears as shown in this film. Reminder: while we generally know that Asgard put the Tesseract on Earth sometime during Loki & Thor's adult lifetime, we don't know when Asgard got it. BUT. The visuals alone at the end of CAtFA have some pretty big implications in that direction. More so as TDW shows us that there's a certain technology in play as far back as Bor's time. Here's a gif.. Look kinda familiar, Thor fans..?)

Here's one I've shared before, from TDW itself to visually remind us where we've seen that kind of things repeatedly:

(Yep. That's the Bifrost being used 5,000 years ago to bring in Bor's army and steal the Aether, y'all. It also shows us something else: that the Bifrost can be held in long spurts without destroying the planet it's pointed at becoming an immediate thing. Combine this with Loki's knowledge and hm... that raises some other interesting facts and extra questions about the Bifrost scene at the end of Thor 2011 too, doesn't it.)

Okay so! Some who see this might ask 'Why is all that important?'

Welp.. the answer is in the question at the very top of this ask.

Asking about Loki, and his taking Asgard's throne at the end of Thor the Dark World...

The answers are yes, especially because motivation, all that backstory (both directly on screen and what was established and cemented as canon even off it for years by the creators, for that story to work [yes click that link if you haven't seen the breakdown of the year between Thor 2011 and Avengers 2012],) and more pointedly the fact that Loki by that point after the end of The Dark World: not only knows someone is pursuing the Infinity Stones, and knows very well how the Tesseract in Asgard's vault at this stage would help Thanos collect the rest.. but!

Loki has also up close and personal just been introduced to a third, formerly lost/hidden Infinity Stone being revealed and claimed in a very loud, very public way, by a just as universally known power he himself has intimate knowledge of... Asgard [if through Jane/Earth: and gawds but Bor was just as bad about hiding vital and fatal info as Odin turned out to be, sheesh.]

And here's the extra addition to that motivation to stay and take that throne in a way that also knocks out all threat FROM Asgard and it's allies: the person who tortured him and is seeking those stones has already threatened his life more than once in pursuit of them, and promised to hunt him down if he didn't get what he wanted then in 2012.

(If you missed it by the way? The dialogue, inflection and expressions there both show and tell us right away that they don't trust him NOT to keep the Tesseract from them: even if Loki doesn't fail in 2012. There's no reason to use up the extra airtime, or hit him with pain immediately after, to triple down on it otherwise. The Other, and Thanos by extension; do not trust their hold on Loki: or that he will give them what they want in other words. They don't trust him to succeed [purposely or not] and they don't trust him not to gank both Stones completely out of their already distant reach. (Which and lol he absolutely does manage to do anyway, by putting up neon info signs, really gone-ham public and personal displays, riling the trashed initiative team up left and right, leaving Barton behind on purpose knowing he was coming, and definitely missing the slant of a sloped sky scraper AND the landing pad loop when he tosses Stark into account? It was brilliantly done as was and without that examination, but when you take all that into account too.. oof..! The higher probability that the plan was internally wrecked by the underlying knife of absolute spite for his torturers this character likely pulled off; was just plain beautiful, and clean AF. Just sayin'.)

But and no, Thanos didn't get what he wanted in gambling even the one stone he did have in 2012 in order to try and pick up that second stone.

Obviously.

So they (and we) had more than enough of the potential motivation put down both on screen and off it, over the course of four years (including IM2 production preparing for it in that foundation) but is that still enough to take the risk, and go for the throne?

( ⬆️ Loki's appearance on arrival in Avengers 2012 after his time with Thanos as originally intended; prior to toning it down in order to fit the PG-13 rating the studios were aiming for to increase audience.)

YES, it was.

Even if only temporarily at first, taking Odin off his throne insures Loki's freedom from pursuit on Asgard's end: as he is now king of those pursuers, and a great deal more overall autonomy even outside of Asgard.

This puts him in direct control of the King's Vault, in which the Tesseract [possible means of escape, while within the reach of that greater tech level etc] is being held: and which again.. Thanos [again threatened & tortured him] still wants, and he knows this.

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(⬆️ On-screen Example 1 of what it was like even to be claimed as family, by Thanos. Loki was not, family.)

On top of that, in the long term; his position as King allows him to have a broader sight that running or hiding would not: thanks to Asgard's position as a Known-Universe-sized Imperial Protectorate encompassing multiple Worlds and or Galaxies .. including Earth where the Mind Stone (and Time) is, Xandar (Power shows up just a little under a single year later during his reign,) the Kree (same.) And a much greater ability to prepare (keeping those stones as separate as possible, as he does as the King on the throne who sends Reality to the Collector) and see Thanos coming when he does as a result.

Ultimately, even if temporarily: taking the throne at this stage and in this situation is absolutely within his character, even not wanting it. The massive tactical and personal advantages with Thanos alone, which that position with his knowledge; would provide him with a great deal of capability and reach for a very minimal amount of effort, and especially lives and time lost going the other route..? Were not only on display for two years worth of films to call on, but are pretty hard to excuse passing on in his situation at that time, for any reason.

(⬆️ On-screen Example 2)

There are and were other routes available yes: quite a few of them being he was and likely still is a hero everywhere BUT Earth*. But each and every one of them was that much more dangerous, and lacking in protection both for himself personally and for anything left of what he might have wanted to save of any of those also involved: including Asgard.

(*And yes some of those civilizations might maybe question him and that bad guy status a little: but let's be honest. Confronted with the facts of how all that and Thor's mess ups with Jotunheim actually went down, which Loki also knows about both first hand and in depth, and could easily call out just as publicly [and has in some of my fics]... it's not incredibly likely other societies and especially their leaders responsible for their lives, would choose to indulge Asgard's pride and arrogance at the risk of something like Thanos being allowed to continue to run loose after at least decades of halving populations like Gamora's, Drax's through Ronan, and possibly Nebula's [unconfirmed]. There would be a process to that too though; and time spent correcting all the messes that would cause for him to clean up in order to move forward with fewer obstacles as a result, possibly years if not centuries depending on location and how little they know.)

Taking Asgard's throne (even temporarily) while the majority of big players were either dead at that point[Frigga], weakened [Odin was putting Thor up for king in T1 to take his place & putting off Odinsleep at least 2 years prior to TDW] or occupied/distracted with the final death throes of the Dark Elves [Thor, pretty much everyone else] was the cleanest and safest way to ensure his life, his safety, and his freedom.

Even if, only short term.

Add on the other bonuses being in that seat "wearing the old goat's face" (yeah I borrowed that line from GROUNDED's Tony muse) and well.. there are too many more reasons to do it than not.

The other option has him either trying to escape Darkalfheim to a planet NOT Earth or Asgard to keep from being noted or picked up, before he's found first and knowing Asgard is and has been pursuing him (and Thor) since Thor broke him out of the dungeon: or trying to escape Asgard itself: with very little influence or power to do anything about both the person who tortured him coming after him as promised.. OR Asgard coming after him.

Because there is another thing that would have come out, with Odin still on the throne: is the fact that the body there [if he used a decoy, like one of the elves corpses left behind, or even the guard sent] was not his. Which would have led to immediate search and pursuit, and likely Thor being part of it after dealing with Malekith.

In these scenarios, Loki would have to pursue a counter to not only Asgard itself or Earth's established [and re-established through Jane's reaction] perceptions of him; but also Asgard's political reach as well in order to maintain his freedom, and actually start to counter Thanos before the slurpee stain could reach either, and potentially reclaim if not claim the stones: because they WOULD become an obstacle.. if not because of Odin and Thor [both of whose positions are made blatantly and glaringly clear where Loki is concerned in that same film, repeatedly and reflected on top of that in the entire scene with Thor's friends threatening him, as well as Frigga's own gaslighting scenes prior to her death as the Queen who should have taken her throne in T1 and in the dungeon in TDW.] then definitely because of the Other and Thanos, both of whom were very much alive and still running around the outer edges of the Galaxy until the Other was killed by Ronan in 2014.

Whether he's solely protecting himself, or looking to set up revenge, Loki, Thor, and Asgard's Local story in the MCU was designed to be part of if not heavily intertwined with the Universal Story before we saw any of them on our screens. And, if you're picking up a crafting story any time after 2011 in canon in that Universe.. that's gonna, and should be a thing.

Sad (and more than a little pitiful) that current creators ignore and mock all that and more, along with the efforts of over a decade of that work and hundreds of creators before them, especially in what they're passing for Thor since Gagnarok, or calling the "Loki" series (aka Bob: The Accountant/The Not-Enchantress Show) today*.. but I suppose that's what you get when you pay a bunch of clueless and Odin/Thor-level-arrogant cartoon creators for a twice rejected, unfinished script as the knock-off and fill in for crafting the next part of that story: and then hire their friends to do the next part even worse than the first?

(*Just sayin'. lol! Also yes those are both separate links to just a few examples of what's been going wrong since.)

So.. TLDR...

Yes, it's actually very in-character for Loki to have taken the throne; as a proven and intentionally crafted intelligent and tactically-minded character,* who was raised knowing Asgard's reach and power when a King who uses it properly is seated in that throne.

(*Regardless of what the series tries to tell you to mock viewers otherwise.. those scenes stating otherwise about Loki's character in S1 and now in S2 still makes me laugh my ass off at the stupidity and ignorance on display in this regard especially: as they tell you outright that absolutely no one who might have cared on the BTS team watched an ounce of the Avengers movie they want you believe the character came directly from, any of Thor 2011 before it, and definitely not TDW or Guardians to guess never mind know even remotely accurately as to the TITLE CHARACTER's characterization or motivations, of their own series; to get it THAT wrong on purpose... to the extent that, they have to put those kinds of words in his and other characters' mouths through the "scripts" they wrote and put on screen.)

I do however and as an addition: think Loki probably hated it from day to day.

After all, everything he did to stop if not pause Thanos and buy time; was done so with Odin's face.. and as a result was credited to Odin, who reminder.. by the time GotG and then Ragnarok ended, we knew was aware of Thanos at the very least (if not through Asgard then through other huge powers in the universe like Xandar and the Kree [Ronan was killing on Thanos behalf, Gamora's planet was halved decades prior]) and sat on his hands rather than face the largest army in the known universe, as it's proclaimed protector.

The leader for which being let run loose like that [Thanos].. was able to snatch Loki up, and the New York Invasion to happen as a result of Odin and Asgard's complacency.

Loki would have been stuck with the prospect of revealing himself and slowing down his potential progress and preparation (including restoring Asgard and it's defenses around the Tesseract in it's vault) over the course of those five years, being pursued for likely execution or maybe the rest of those 3,500 years of solitary confinement Frigga had to beg for as a sitting duck in a literal gilded cage again, running and attempting to keep his autonomy while doing all of that anyway, or ... just taking the throne and keeping his face hidden in order to avoid almost all of any of that and the many variations possible there that would have wasted months if not years of very precious time.

Ultimately, avoiding these things would have cost him in another way too, if he did manage and he knew that; because and again, Loki knew Thanos' game and purpose much earlier than we the viewers did. Sitting aside and hiding was not going to exclude him from the gamble of the snap even if Thanos did not find him, and took the stones without his interference.

Without his interference (and especially after Hydra stealing it in the 40's, and Thanos' first attempt to take the Tesseract from Earth as one very near example of why not to: especially from the outside looking in at that) it remains very probable that Odin would not have moved the Aether at all; as Loki did, wearing his face. Which means that, regardless of whether or not he returned for Ragnarok (which was established even in it's own plot-hole ridden mess of a story) as happening anyway: Thanos still would have collected Space and Reality after Power.. and he would have been able to do so far more quickly with them both in one place.. whether that place was floating space with Loki not there to collect either, or in their hands after the fact because he did think not to leave them in the open and undefended.

There are some ways around this (I've done some and planned out more,) but they're very tricky to do believably: and they still take time, allies, and correcting at least some things (especially perceptions and the break in trust worsened majorly by Odin and Thor) to manage. Sometimes a LOT of all of the above.

What's more, when taking him out into the open after the part he played in saving not only Jane, but also Asgard from Odin's rage filled dumb in TDW?

It's pretty likely that revealing himself on the throne and explaining this shit would have wasted even more time in various ways. But the very first and most obvious thing to become a problem in the realm of big-picture no-nos he definitely would have been aware of is this:

Asgard as a whole at that point and likely after having the story confirmed by Thor, would likely fall into a state of even more chaos in civil war if not a war of succession afterwards: further screwing over their ability to recover their defensive capabilities due to fighting themselves.

Other societies becoming aware could spark the same reaction, if a little later and cause Asgard's reputation, standing and overall influence to crumble as the facts came out. While some of these are avoidable or made less in certain situations: the fact remains that is what Odin set himself and Asgard up for by sitting to the side rather than doing everything in his power as King of an advanced space-faring society in contact with numerous others capable of moving them even without the Bifrost in effect.

It's very likely that, some of those external (and maybe some internal like Vanaheim) would use the very good examples of Odin and Thor's incompetence when dealing with things like Jotunheim (oh wow lets not get into that long list of treason and kid-glove handling of prince raised as genocidal traitor yet again), and Vanaheim (Asgardian colony with no Asgardian defense cannons or ships ..hm that reeks of some serious issues and bigotry too: especially seen in the very same film as those cannons, AND the fact they could transport whole armies via Bifrost 5,000 years prior?) alone, as a springboard to either GTFO Odin's alliance party, or support the idea of Loki being crowned instead of Thor.. if not both.

Anyway. This was really long and I have pulled this whole thing apart so many times in so many different ways that I could definitely keep going.. but I think that's a good enough view of the whys it's very much in character.. and some of what likely would have happened if he hadn't. And yes that emphasis in bold is very much needed.

There are other factors to take into account alongside of all this, including (aka not only) the fact his actual species (yep, don't forget: he's not Asgardian either) is both known at this point, and absolutely despised by Asgardians in particular on top of all that. And, at least some of the generation that hates his kind most --Odin and Frigga's-- are still around to keep carrying that on and attempt to pass it to their kids of the same generation. A thing we know they did already, through the dialogue, responses and and actions of every single member of the Royal family, including Loki's, starting with the very first film.

Remember.. this was the entire reason Thor thought it was completely okay to rack up multiple charges of treason, trespass on a completely different world he was forbidden by both sides from even setting foot on, and then insulting and killing them on the home planet he invaded, in the first place...

..and that fact it was still present, and was in action, was ultimately the root of the reasoning for that banishment.

Incidentally, and as final set of side notes?

This another example of why world building and sticking to the rules of that world/universe as established is necessary, and only serves to make the world and universe the characters are supposed be part of that much stronger and more interesting when done correctly.

Limitations (physical, social, psychological and more) exist in story and in those universes not just as near-laws-of-physics, but sometimes as an obstacle themselves to overcome, or more importantly and most often forgotten?

To work with, rather than around or over; in order to actually accomplish something, or at least give the sense of that accomplishment.

This is at the heart of what it means for a character to earn what they're given and show that, rather than simply getting it for free.

Ultimately I see that choice as Loki exchanging his name and identity, along with recognition for having put Thanos off of killing half the universe with him in it for five years; for the ability to better and more quickly protect himself and the things around him from those threats, not only from Thanos.. but also those threats posed and put into word by Odin, Thor, Sif, and the Yes-men Three.

And he was only able to to that without interruption, because he did make that sacrifice in hand for five solid years by taking Odin's throne and face.

It does fit that Loki absolutely did and as Tom Hiddleston and creators have said: at least try let go of Asgard, Thor, Odin and the rest when he let go at the end of Thor 2011...

..However. It's also very clear even if he hadn't; that Thanos' actions and Odin's and Asgard's inaction, ended up forcing him right back in front of them, whether his remaining anger re-igniited by the Scepter during that missing year had been bolstered as it was, played the part it did on screen or not.

All that said.. it was quite a long way away from hasty or lazy writing. If anything, that would have been true for going through with Loki's death at the end of TDW instead: as the next set in line would have been entirely excused from putting him or any of that story into focus on screen at all, even in what little they did pay attention to it during and after Gagnarok.

The TDW creators simply chose the most obvious path the previous creators had already crafted in their foundations, and laid down the path for them to take in crafting the next with TDW to set up for hte next even after it.

Sucks that it took getting that big an audience reaction in that direction to do so and not be that lazy about it.. but it is what it is.

Post-Script and For faster reference and in order from Captain America 2011 on, Loki did/was subject to, the following:

[Pre-1940s: unknown era] Had enough definitive exposure to the Tesseract as prince of Asgard, to be referred to as the equivalent of an expert on the Tesseract. (Given his discovery of the doorways between worlds as put on display in TDW, this makes even more sense than it already did in 2012.)

[2011]Was tortured and influenced both emotionally and mentally by the Other and gifted the Scepter with the intent of further riling and amplifying [that's what fueling means in this instance] his anger towards Thor and Earth's part in helping to release him from his banishment: in return, he's offered rule over Earth and more importantly his freedom from all of the above in that rule after.

[2012] The Mind Stone is used long distance in conjunction with the Tesseract to watch and torture him at a distance on screen as well. It's only functions used on screen otherwise is as a projectile weapon and device to spread that mind control to serve the deal made.

[2013]Helped save Jane & the Reality Stone.

[2013]Helped save an otherwise defenseless Asgard from another siege & Odin's stated intent to die to the last man, woman and child in that fight: at the same time.

[2013]Killed Algrim/Kurse in defense of Thor and Jane; an individual who was so powerful as enhanced by the Reality Stone: that he batted Mjolnir aside like it was a nerf toy.

[2013]Sent the Reality Stone to the Collector, separating what stones he had.

[2013]Kept the Space Stone in it's place in the vault ..and it stayed there for the 5 years of his rule.

[2014] Between Asgard proper as a political and protective power, and his connections to the Collector himself: clearly knew about and did not claim the Power stone, or put it in Asgard's vault either, after it's use there.

[2015] The Mind Stone being removed from Earth, was stated as being Thor's purpose, as directed by the King [Loki.] No intended ending destination was given.

[2017-2018]Rebuilt Asgard, it's homes and it's defenses: well enough that even in and by Gagnarok they were building theaters and statues, and enjoying plays.

( ⬆️ Yeah I wasn't kidding: that's the Kurse nerf-toy mjolnir sequence in TDW, if you missed it.)

#Loki #MCU #MCU canon #TDW #motivations #intent #survival #the world a character is in and it's history (esp immediate) should always effect them #if it doesn't; there is no point to having that world/universe #or pretending they're in anything other than a plain white 10x10 box #the MCU used to do this fairly well #the problem is they stopped following through in entirety about 2/3 of the way to IW between Gagnarok and Cpt Marvel #and both Infinity War and Endgame: along with everything that followed? Suffered and still is suffering because of the lack of effort..#..and the lack of the intent or focus of telling a good comelling story with their entertainment; rather focusing it as a political podium.#gee..#idk why the entertainment companies are losing money: they only stopped entertaining to bring politics to the fore <.<;;#no idea why THAT and using isms and ists to drive off your customers when they didn't like it didn't go well. none at all.#..if you can't hear my sarcasm and laughter there?#that's not MY fault lol #Thor: the Dark World #Avengers 2012 #Guardians of the Galaxy 2014 #Captain America: the First Avenger #Local Story #Universal Story #and how they interact when done right #asks #canon info dumps #canon break downs #situational & background

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blindtaleteller · 8 months ago

Text

This!

However, I do think there's a missed piece of perspective and comparison especially in regards to Thor, Sif and the Warriors Three; with this particular sentence and paragraph:

" Loki is not being sentenced for the deaths of either frost giants or humans, whose lives to Odin are ultimately worthless, but for daring to destroy the Bifrost (yes the job was finished by Thor, but it had been crumbling under the forces brought to bear on Jotunheim) which diminishes Asgardian dominance. "

There's a couple of things overlooked, and it mainly has to do with both severity of both brothers' crimes within that imperial construct: (because yes, they did both commit the same crimes when separated from the familial end of things, regardless of what other spin is put on it) and the on screen facts of how that need for dominance easily formed early on into downright bigotry (among other things) and uneven 'justice' for those who fall out of Odin's approval are made that much clearer by TDW's opening scene.

.1.Thor was not sentenced to death (Loki's original sentence) OR a lifetime of solitary confinement: regardless of his invasion and attack on Jotunheim both breaking the terms of the then existing peace treaty, OR the fact that he and they murdered an unknown number of Jotun while they were there. The war with Jotunheim was declared from Jotunheim's end a thousand five hundred plus years after the treaty: purely because of Thor's acts of invading the planet, murdering their people, and doing so unapologetically. So unapologetically in fact, that he continued to argue with that King as to why he should have done it, since the King (Odin) wasn't.

2. Neither were Sif and the Warriors Three, regardless of their back and forth wishy washy support of that treason: or their continuation OF it, in attempting to bring that same traitor prince back against both the Original King's sentence, AND the interim King (Loki) whom the Queen herself (Frigga) put in his place effectively as Regent-King at the time. (And reminder; they were trying to bring Thor back while the result of above attempt at genocide was still being dealt with: and they knew this.)

3. Heimdall does not get removed from his position, restricted, or replaced for enabling any of this, either: remember, he is the one who sends Thor and the rest off to Jotunheim against the King's orders. And, later on he continues to do this. Not just in Thor 2011, sending them to Earth for Sif & the Warriors Three's fifth or sixth bout of treason, either. While he doesn't personally physically aid them in getting off the planet: Heimdall doesn't stop them, alert anyone, or .. well. Like in Thor one with the Three telling the audience outright what the sentence for Thor and those who followed him to Jotunheim should have been (which they then backtracked on later in the same in the most wishy-washy and tellingly disloyal of ways:) Thor's own line in the scene with Heimdall after the Elves attack, reminds us again how far off that kind of unjust favoritism in Thor's direction was, from what it should have been: " What I am about to ask of you is treason of the highest order. Success shall bring us exile, and failure shall mean our death. "

(Though Heimdall does offer what's either the most contradictory or most telling of lines implying he's started to get a conscience in [if not realization of threat to] the direction of his duty when Thor asks him to do it again in TDW to get Jane off the planet: " I cannot over-rule my King's wishes. " Far the more likely; after it's been sussed out he's done exactly that a minimum of twice in the last two years: and the King has given him a not-so-friendly reminder these two years later at this point. Anyway..)

Anyway, yes.. there's a lot of that.

And a lot of people tend to brush past that too; like it isn't presented as the ruling body of government and law being flaunted and ignored constantly in favor of blooded Asgardians vs the Captive Prince that had been forcibly Fostered against his knowledge as a future political tool; so that he couldn't possibly choose otherwise to begin with, just like China and Europe used to do.

Seriously, look up the oft forgotten difference between adoption and fostering in that scenario: that's a real thing they AND the Game of Thrones author and later show creators took straight out of human imperialist history (GoT example: Theon Greyjoy. RL example: the majority of Korea's 'Kings' and royalty Fostered as Captive Princes etc whilst still either forcibly allied with or under China's 'protection': it took what is now Korea generations to get out from under China's thumb in part as a result of it.)

Side Note, but an important enough one to mention: Political Marriages in the same kidnapping/now-we-have-your-kid flavor were also prevalent across the then known human globe throughout history in similar monarchial hierarchies: and comparing that with what we know now (well if we keep Hela's existence and the timing of her imprisonment alone?) it does raise the currently unanswerable question (the Jenga-Block's EXTRA-troll Odin death timing jeebs) as to whether or not part of the reason Odin and Frigga kept their mouths shut about Loki being an entirely different species; might have been the idea that part of how they likely intended him to keep that peace might have been to marry their only daughter WHO reminder.. was also Odin's strongest and most trusted general during the Great Wars that included Jotunheim.

Well, that would have been viable.. if she hadn't turned out to be the exactly the example of what her only blood sibling, Thor, was heading towards being himself at the beginning of Thor 2011 without Jane's influence: to get literally thrown into Hel instead.. and toss that option of control for Asgard's King (Odin) out the window with that daughter's descent into crazy town, and inevitable imprisonment costing all but one of the Valkyries lives.

But the point is: yes! And absolutely. Too many people forget this, and that this is the kind of world they lived in, as presented directly to us on screen: both in the dialogue and in the other examples visual and otherwise.

Covering up and holding out on things they didn't want to admit to after the fact wasn't a new thing to Asgard with Odin's reign either. They made that very clear with what they did show and tell us about his father Bor in TDW, too. Bor hid the Aether, and by the dialogue from Odin and more concerning both the Dark Elves and the Reality Stone/Juice-stuff: we know very clearly that Bor hid the fact some elves survived AND that he had hidden the stone/juice from the next generations.

Just like Odin, Bor wrote that history as he saw fit rather than in earnesty or honesty (which also made me wonder and realize what else he hid there.. like, why the elves were so displeased with the universe that they took that route at all, or why they waited billions of years after said newer universe was already created, to attempt it only about 5 thousand prior during the previous convergence.) While maybe there could have been some minor excuses for that initially, the obvious ramifications presenting themselves in TDW don't make any sense unless you DO remember and realize that dominating intent is still strong and present that generation back with Bor too.. and likely where Odin got his examples from, as his father.

In any case and regardless.. no. Not just a family, and treating the ruling body of a monarchial government like it's purely a familial construct as a means of forgiving one member (Thor) and damning the Other (Loki, and yes that capitalization is on purpose) is pretty messed up.

I will say this though; it does manage to give those of us paying attention a very telling and interesting view on this side of the screen, of who among the audience still would support and defend that kind of imperialist favoritism over even the closest thing that kind of system could get to just rule in a way, and a view of those who are still learning the difference, or: how cause and effect work, for that matter?

Stranger side observations set back aside though lol.. all the yes, with these additions and more that I haven't gotten into here but, have.

TLDR?: They're BOTH ruling body of an entire planets' government, AND a really messed up family. And while neither should be ignored in context of that story especially? The fact remains that Odin was as shitty a user King as he was a Father.

And this set up was not only intentionally crafted by the creators and writers prior to Gagnarok as a major flaw and something to identfy/overcome; the Thor story corner was aiming for a much better catharsis of a closing point than that awful and dismissive cell and then elevator scene in Jenga Boy's Waititi's mess of a first film, after they had decided to keep Loki post initial filming.

I would have loved to have seen the story actually continue as intended. Too bad we got stuck with that particular director for the fourth installment (yes, that's a link with Taika's interview clippings and more at the time, and more. Again. I probably will stop posting it when it becomes irrelevent. Which so far eight years later isn't looking to happen. Sorry, not sorry.)

Just sayin'.

Odin and the Terrible Horrible No good Very bad Jotun/aelfar

So, I see a lot of people talking about Odin’s treatment of Loki and Thor as though it’s all about the interpersonal family stuff, but this leaves out the dynastic side of the mess. And, as I will argue, it is impossible to understand his motivations without the throne.

Thor himself acknowledges this at the end of TDW when he talks about the perceived similarities between Loki and Odin and his own unfitness for rule.

Odin’s difficulties arise from his assumptions, made when both were babies, about how Thor and Loki would turn out. Odin’s views on other realms can be extrapolated from the narratives he constructs about Asgard’s wars, as presented at the beginnings of both Thor and TDW.

These are cookie cutter duplicates of each other with little variation outside of proper nouns. A brutish enemy threatens the greater Good. Asgard, led by a noble and wise king, defeats them and takes their weapon/cultural artifact which further seals their doom. This is a happy ending.

Thus, Asgardians are universally presented as noble and good with a paternalistic duty to manage the affairs of other realms, and if the other realms don’t realize that, then it is only further proof of their unworthiness. In this scheme of being, it would be “natural” for Thor to be exactly the genocidal tyrant his father and grandfather have been. Also to be expected would be Loki’s inability to compete on equal terms with Thor.

Neither son conforms to expectation. Loki is clever and calculating, using intelligence and magic to compensate for his slighter build. Thor doesn’t fully accept Asgardian cultural ideals. His closest friends include a female warrior, a Vanir warrior, his strange little brother, and two Asgardians who each have exceptionalities from the ideal, theoretically epitomized by Thor.

Let’s take a look at the first movie from the aspect of all of these political factors. Asgard must have political and military dominance in order for there to be peace according to the narrative Odin gives us. What is less obvious but no less present is that that dominance is to be expressed in the person of the Asgardian king. As Asgard is dominant over other realms, so her king is over all the people.

Thor not only disobeys the expressed wishes of his father, in so doing he undermined the authority of the king. In this analysis, Thor’s crime is not merely back talk, but a form of usurpation. His starting a war is not yet a privilege he should have access to, and starting it at that point merely serves to highlight the physical infirmity of the king.

While Thor is dealing with the consequences of having undermined his father’s authority, Loki is discovering his status as Other/non-Asgardian through his parentage. He immediately confronts Odin in the weapons vault to discover the underlying truth of his life. The story Odin spins contradicts itself, but Loki appears barely to notice, as he is making other connections rapidly.

Soon enough, he is ready to demand the base truth of the story -why? Odin’s answer at first seems to confuse the situation further, but in reality, contains the key to understanding Odin’s lie.

The initial story is that Loki, who is revealed to be the son of the frost giant king, Laufey, was abandoned in a temple to die, but was saved by the merciful benevolence of Odin. When asked to explain why, Odin asserts that he hoped to bring a lasting peace through Loki. The contradictions here are glaringly obvious: a child abandoned in a temple? One would typically assume a child, especially one of a king, left in a temple next to a precious artifact during a battle was not put there as an act of infanticide, but in order to protect him from the violence. An abandoned child whose parentage is clear? We are not shown any marks on the swaddling clothes and Loki’s skin markings do not closely resemble Laufey’s. An abandoned child who could be the key to a lasting peace? They were content enough before to let the child die. How does he suddenly gain prominence enough to be the lynchpin of a peace plan?

Asgard must have dominance, in order for there to be peace. So Loki, the lost prince of Jotunheim, is intended to be a puppet king, answering to the will of Asgard’s king. Once we realize that, we look again at the contradictions and realize they are all resolved if Loki was never abandoned. Huh, imagine that. Loki has also been told all his life that he was born to be a king. Adding all this together, the original plan was likely that after Thor was made heir and Loki’s promised throne was unavailable, Odin would lead a war to put Loki on the throne he was meant to occupy. The problems with this plan include Loki’s intelligence and independence. He is not malleable, and would become a rival instead of a puppet. Oops.

Loki is not being sentenced for the deaths of either frost giants or humans, whose lives to Odin are ultimately worthless, but for daring to destroy the Bifrost (yes the job was finished by Thor, but it had been crumbling under the forces brought to bear on Jotunheim) which diminishes Asgardian dominance. Also, he put himself in the position of possibly getting his hands on one of Asgard’s powerful toys. It didn’t matter when Red Skull had the tesseract because he couldn’t challenge Asgard’s preeminence. It mattered a lot when it might be Loki.

Sending Thor to retrieve the tesseract, no doubt after a year spent trying to undo Thor’s unseemly affection for lesser beings such as humans and frost giants, allows him an acceptable way to both prove his prowess in war and to further cement the lessons in Loki’s inferiority.

Leading us to the latest film where Odin’s prejudice and desire for power are more obvious and the ways that plays out. I think part of the plan in depriving Loki of touch was indeed to drive him to psychosis, thus robbing him of his most powerful weapon, his mind, and completing the picture of a mindless frost giant that Loki had never been.

#TLDR at the end #Loki #Thor #Thor 2011 #Thor: the Dark World #some Gagnarok references & mentions #Gagnarok #aka Thor: Ragnarok #aka Jenga Block Boys' insult the MCU & it's audience #why only treating them as a family does NOT work #also some of why I absolutely loved the pre-Gagnarok storybuilding

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