#fundamental misunderstanding of steve rogers character

[sharonisthebettercarter]

very true, i can maybe count one or two people in my life that were *actually* genuine, true heart of gold real life HEROES, and i can say without a doubt, getting forced into retirement? that was their worst nightmare.

this actually also reminded me of a batman animated series episode, lol, can't remember if it was the newer adventures or the original animation, but it's basically an episode that deals with a similar concept, but with wayne enterprises and batman

basically, bruce has an employee that's been extremely sad because company policy is going to make him retire since he's getting to a certain age.

thing was, that employee LOVED his job, and was good at it, but was accepting of his fate nonetheless. the whole situation has bruce thinking about his own work as batman, and in turn about the company policy

the episode ends with bruce realizing he loves being batman, and changing the policy from one based on age to one based on work ability and desire, and the employee quite obviously celebrates this fact because it means he can keep doing what he loves<3

the other factor about this is a bit more of a debbie downer...

people tend to confuse what is a true *hero* with 'what is a person who chose a generally heroic *job*'. and there is a HUGE difference. these same people also seem to forget that COPS, the fucking legalized mob they are, are also considered 'heroes' for a certain mind boggling subset of people *ahem*, to not name names here.

but most people recognize that there are a LOT of problems with the *type* of people who become cops. many of which are individuals that are on the OPPOSITE end of heroism, rife with COWARDICE, and simply choosing the job as a means end to hold POWER over other people, for the esteemed 'prestige' of it, or because they want to *legally* kill people and are absolute psychopaths.

the *good* cops? they often get forced off the force for being whistleblowers, or get killed in the line of duty "by criminals" or through "accidents"

the same goes for a lot of jobs that hold the 'hero' title. doctors? enough of them do not care and do not listen to their patients concerns, some became doctors not because they wanted to help others, but because it was expected in the family, and it shows when that's the case. nurses are another bag of worms because wouldn't ya guess it, there's FOR SOME ODD REASON, a direct fucking pipeline of HIGH SCHOOL MEAN GIRL to NURSE

and let me tell ya, it AIN'T cause they're fuckin' 'misunderstood' and have a 'heart of gold' underneath all the BULLSHIT.

it's the power play, the *authority* they hold over others, the fact that human LIVES are literally *dependent* on them and their action, and the fact that the *worst* people get off on that shit.

even most firefighters aren't what i'd call *true* heroes. because *most* of the time they aren't running into burning buildings to save a kid's life like you see in movies. MOST of the time, they are responding to calls of an old person falling, or an old person needing medical attention, or SOMETHING fucking old people related, and i don't even say this to discredit the work they do that does help the elderly, but to make a point.

even when the situation arises where someone, anyone, can step up to the plate, MOST of them do not.

jesus fucking christ, for cops, there was a fucking court case which decided they DO NOT need to 'protect and serve' or put their own lives on the line to protect civilians DESPITE the fucking OATH they take!

GUESS where that brilliant decision came from, cause i guaranfuckingtee it wasn't "bravery and heroic action"

UGH.

don't even get me started on military, just know that deserters are a thing, as is those that go on to become MERCENARIES to meet their BLOODLUST.

also, trying to rationalize steve's ending with 'he was in an alternate universe' doesn't make it any better. assuming that other universe doesn't get completely destroyed with all that blood on his hands because that timeline is deemed to 'deviate too much' by the tva, he's a disgusting misogynist who is literally replacing the peggy he actually knew but was never actually with, with a perfect clone of her that he knows fuck all about, just that she looks the same~

yeah, gross.

is it cheating if with a twin or clone~? oh right, they were never together, and i guess what main peggy and alternate steve don't know can't hurt them.

also super fucking gross to assume that peggy cared fuck all about the husband she had in the main timeline that steve essentially robs her of, should this be the case<3

[eunuchorn]

People who think that Steve's motivation in Captain America: Civil War was about Bucky so fundamentally misunderstand Steve Rogers as a character that I have to wonder if we actually watched the same movie.

Steve's opposition to the Accords had nothing to do with Bucky. Full stop. Even if Bucky didn't exist, CA:CW would still have played out the exact same way (except the fight with Tony at the end, obviously). Sooner or later, Steve would have run into a situation where he felt compelled to act, but doing so would go against the Accords. In CA:CW, that situation happened to be the kill order on Bucky, but it could have been a totally different situation and the result would still have been the same. Steve would have chosen to act, knowing it went against the Accords, and he would have found himself on the opposite side of the law. Even the ones who actually signed the Accords, i.e team Iron Man, found themselves in that situation eventually:

Natasha chose to go against orders and let Steve and Bucky get away after the airport fight so they could stop the other winter soldiers.

Tony chose to go against Ross's direct orders and went to help Steve in Siberia.

Vision went on the run with Wanda and helped her avoid arrest.

Rhodey went against Ross's direct orders and chose to help Cap and the rest in Infinity War instead of arresting them.

All of them found themselves in situations where they chose to act in violation of the Accords, because to not do so would be morally wrong. Which was Steve's entire point. Legality isn't the same as morality and putting their powers in the hands of political agendas would inevitably cause the Avengers to either have to fight someone who didn't deserve to be fought, or to be kept from fighting someone who should have been stopped. As shown in the examples above.

So Bucky was totally irrelevant to Steve's decision regarding the Accords. Bucky or no Bucky, Steve would have refused to sign, found himself in a situation where he felt morally compelled to act, and ended up with an arrest warrant on his ass. Which, presumably, Tony would have tried to carry out. And boom, the general plot of the movie happens anyway. That's what the civil war was about, not Steve's relationship with Bucky. The fact that it was Bucky's situation that was the catalyst, instead of some other thing, was coincidental (or, rather, it was because it's a Cap movie and personal stakes as a secondary/parallel plot is more narratively compelling).

[cloudinterlude]

There's a certain tone that bleeds into a lot of MCU fanfiction when talking about Steve's defrosting into the new century and it's bothersome. It's like people don't fully understand why he didn't have to be grateful for being in modern times. There's a serious lack of empathy and it always ends up with some other character ranting to Steve about how he needs to suck it up and move on if he wants to get anywhere in life and somehow that motivates Steve to...realize he was the only one being an asshole and learning to love the current world?

Yeah no.

I've read one (1) - and isn't to say other stories I like got it wrong bc I've certainly read others that are also great - but I've read ONE fanfiction that describes Steve's situation perfectly (in such a meaningful way) and it literally blew my mind when I read it because it was so good to ME.

"Ain't no Grave" by spitandvinegar was amazing. Mind you, I'm not a really Stucky shipper in any capacity (like I see the vision but don't feel it yknow?), but I'm a sucker for satisfying Steve characterization so I inhaled this fic. And y'all...this author did his character justice. It's not even a Steve-centric story! Which made me even more amazed (that the author got him so right) and even more annoyed (that so many people get him so wrong and end up bashing him). I quote the paragraph below but I urge you to read the fic if you're interested!

Like listen, listen. Imagine you live in this country, right? And there's a brutal war, and you witness and maybe participate in a horrific amount of violence, and you lose absolutely everyone you care about. Then you end up in this other country, where the culture and ways of doing things are completely foreign to you, and random assholes make fun of you for how you dress and act and talk while you're still coming to grips with the fact that everyone you love is gone and you can never go home again. Meanwhile, everyone around you is like "smile, motherfucker, you're in the Land of Plenty now, where there's a Starbucks on every corner and 500 channels on TV. You should be grateful! Why aren't you acting more grateful?" So you have to pretend to be grateful while you're dying inside. Sound like an traumatized, orphaned refugee? Also sounds like Steve fucking Rogers, Captain Goddamn America. Except that most refugees were part of a community of other people who were going through the same thing. Steve is all alone, the last damn unicorn, if the last unicorn had horrible screaming nightmares about the time when it helped to liberate Buchenwald.

AMAZING RIGHT? It was very satisfying to read the first time around. Even more satisfying that this was coming from Sam's POV which was just a lovely decision.

Anyways!

This little rant isn't even coming from a place of superiority. I know characterization can be difficult, and it's not so much about the quality rather than the fundamental misunderstanding of Steve's character that makes it obvious that either the author doesn't care enough to try to empathize with him, 2) They're using Steve to prop up some other character or 3) They watched his trilogy with their eyes closed and called it a day.

This post has gotten too long so thats all I'll say for now!

[cool-sepulchre]

AU’s that make Steve Rogers a cop have a fundamental misunderstanding of his character 🤢🤢🤢

[lucidasidera]

I’ve rewatched the Captain Carter episode and you know what the first thing Peggy says to Steve is? What her core motivation turns out to be? STEVE ROGERS: All this to make one Super Soldier.

PEGGY CARTER: Paris has fallen, London might be next. If this works, you could end the war. We mere mortals can dream of doing such things. We mere mortals, she says. I know that the writers are trying to show her concern for the world and Nazi advancement and her personal feelings of powerlessness in the face of it and blah blah blah but you know who that sounds like right? 

It’s not Steve Rogers, who never wanted to be greater than mere mortals. It’s not Erskine, who wants Steve to promise him he will stay who he is, that he will remain first and foremost a good man. It’s not Bucky Barnes, who vows to follow the little guy from Brooklyn, not Captain America.  It’s Schmidt. It’s Schmidt who wanted to become “the superior man”. It’s Schmidt who says that the recipients of the serum “have left humanity behind”. Peggy sounds like the Red Skull.  This is what happens when you equate physical strength with power. This is what happens when you, as a writer, think that a strong woman needs to be strong. This is what happens when you measure the worth of a character by what they can DO with the serum and not who they ARE.  I mean, it’s a fundamental fucking misunderstanding of the very concept of Steve’s Captain America and of feminism besides. And again, not every female character needs to be, or should be, a paragon of feminist ideals. Not every female character needs to be strong and accomplished and heroic. But if you set out to write that, well. Don’t come selling that crap to me, MCU. I see you. 

[stony-ao3-feed]

Five times Steve and Tony kissed each other platonically, and one time they made love… non-platonically

Read it on AO3

by Frankensteins_Monster

Steve and Tony are good friends, at least according to Steve. Tony would rather snog him senseless then play another round of cards. Yet when Steve fundamentally misunderstands the casual nature of intimacy in the modern era, Tony finds himself in one of the strangest and most confusing situations of his entire life.

Words: 5317, Chapters: 1/1, Language: English

Series: Part 2 of Loving Avengers

Fandoms: Marvel Cinematic Universe, The Avengers (Marvel Movies), Iron Man (Movies), Captain America (Movies)

Rating: Explicit

Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply

Categories: M/M

Characters: Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, James "Bucky" Barnes, Sam Wilson (Marvel), Clint Barton, Thor (Marvel), Natasha Romanov (Marvel), Bruce Banner

Relationships: Steve Rogers/Tony Stark, James "Bucky" Barnes/Sam Wilson

Additional Tags: 5 Times, 5+1 Things, N Things, 5 Things, 5+1, Getting Together, Bisexual Tony Stark, Oblivious Steve Rogers, Internalized Homophobia, Internal Conflict, Denial, Steve Rogers thinks he's straight, But he obviously isn't, Confusion, Sexual Confusion, Kissing, Drinking, Pining, Sexual Content, Spanking, Smut, big dick, Happy Ending

Read it on AO3

[ao3feed-stony]

Five times Steve and Tony kissed each other platonically, and one time they made love… non-platonically

by Frankensteins_Monster

Steve and Tony are good friends, at least according to Steve. Tony would rather snog him senseless then play another round of cards. Yet when Steve fundamentally misunderstands the casual nature of intimacy in the modern era, Tony finds himself in one of the strangest and most confusing situations of his entire life.

Words: 5317, Chapters: 1/1, Language: English

Series: Part 2 of Loving Avengers

Fandoms: Marvel Cinematic Universe, The Avengers (Marvel Movies), Iron Man (Movies), Captain America (Movies)

Rating: Explicit

Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply

Categories: M/M

Characters: Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, James "Bucky" Barnes, Sam Wilson (Marvel), Clint Barton, Thor (Marvel), Natasha Romanov (Marvel), Bruce Banner

Relationships: Steve Rogers/Tony Stark, James "Bucky" Barnes/Sam Wilson

Additional Tags: 5 Times, 5+1 Things, N Things, 5 Things, 5+1, Getting Together, Bisexual Tony Stark, Oblivious Steve Rogers, Internalized Homophobia, Internal Conflict, Denial, Steve Rogers thinks he's straight, But he obviously isn't, Confusion, Sexual Confusion, Kissing, Drinking, Pining, Sexual Content, Spanking, Smut, big dick, Happy Ending

source https://archiveofourown.org/works/28712847

[urcadelimabean]

the marvel fandom is so exhausting because of how people who want to do “discourse” completely ignore all the ways Steve’s line of thinking sounds a lot like a typical gun owner’s and the fact that he like, runs around in other countries making messes and is like “what, I should be held accountable for this????” which is basically identical to the thinking of Americans who believe the United States is entitled to go wreck places in the name of democracy and then leave.

this is not anti Steve or even anti his fans (I am one lmao) it’s just frustrating how black and white the whole registration conversation got so quickly and how any elements of Captain America as a character that actually fit really well with conservative ideology are just ignored in favor of the argument that registration/regulation of any sort=fascism. (You’re telling me that if we had a bunch of superpowered people running around you wouldn’t even stop to be concerned about your own safety? have you seen the civilian deaths in marvel movies? so much of the idea of superhero movies is just the “helpful gun owner” idea on steroids) And then people are like CAPTAIN MARVEL IS PROPAGANDA, she’s in the air force oh no!!!! And I’m like....1) you’re a little late to the party if you think Marvel has only now started upholding any sort of status quo 2) do you remember Captain America thinking he should have absolutely zero oversight, that is the most quintessentially propagandistic message as it relates to the United States viewing itself as a global power

I watch marvel movies to have fun, and like, see Carol Danvers smash people with her fists and Steve and Sam snark at each other, so this is in no way supposed to even be about what people should or shouldn’t be fans of, I just get really tired of this “perfect” Steve Rogers trope and the way people use it not only to hate other characters but to also fundamentally misunderstand his character. Steve is flawed as well as heroic and that’s what makes him interesting. Yes, he was created as a subversive anti-Nazi character by Jewish writers but that doesn’t mean there can’t be elements of his stories (written by other people!!!) that are not especially progressive.

They didn’t show Steve teaming up with villains in Civil War like he did in the comics because they wanted to get rid of all grey area but whatever. Civil War in the comics was actually about how both sides were right in some ways and wrong in others and horribly compromised their own ideals in the process of pursuing their goals. The theme to me was literally the lengths people will take to do things they believe in only to see their values distorted in the process, leading to the conclusion “it wasn’t worth it”. But Marvel films can’t handle that level of moral complexity.

[zombieseamonster]

riley in buffy being referred to as ‘captain america’ is foreshadowing to how completely joss whedon would fundamentally misunderstand steve rogers’ character, in this essay i will

[egregious]

Most stucky fic writers fundamentally misunderstand the character Steve Rogers bc when they do modern aus he’s almost always still a soldier/veteran which is CRAZY....like u want me to believe Steve Rogers fought in Iraq or Afghanistan????? Is his ring tone courtesy of the red white and blue?????

[ao3feed-stucky]

Dreamers Often Lie

read it on the AO3 at http://ift.tt/2DiFzpM

by BrighteyedJill

As far as Bucky remembers, sex is something that is painful and terrifying if you wake up while it's happening. As the Asset, sleeping through sex was a rare treat. When Steve lets Bucky know he's interested in a sexual relationship, what Steve doesn't know is that they have fundamentally different ideas of what that entails.

Words: 908, Chapters: 1/9, Language: English

Fandoms: Marvel Cinematic Universe, Captain America (Movies)

Rating: Explicit

Warnings: Rape/Non-Con

Categories: M/M

Characters: James "Bucky" Barnes, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanov (Marvel), Sam Wilson (Marvel)

Relationships: James "Bucky" Barnes/Steve Rogers, James "Bucky" Barnes/Hydra Agents

Additional Tags: Somnophilia, Non-Consensual Somnophilia, Consensual Somnophilia, Extremely Dubious Consent, Past Rape/Non-con, Rape Aftermath, Rape/Non-con Elements, Misunderstandings, Butt Plugs, HYDRA Trash Party, Psychological Trauma, Self-Blame, confused about what actually constitutes sex, Nat is a good friend

read it on the AO3 at http://ift.tt/2DiFzpM

[sharonisthebettercarter]

totally valid and fair point<3

[road-kill-eater]

a lot of people are adding comments and tags to this post saying that the timeline in marvel comics is too messy and that comics are fundamentally different than books, but the reason retcons and alternate universes exist in comics is to create a cohesive whole despite its nature as a collaborative medium. large comic universes like marvel comics are essentially more like mythology than a series of graphic novels or books, but that doesnt mean that an adaptation of greek myth would be justified in taking nothing but the names and a few traits of characters from the source material(s) and still calling itself a faithful adaptation because the source material sometimes had conflicting info and its easier to make shit up than sort it all out or even attempt to stay true to the spirit of the original stories. but there are coherent, straightforward stories in the 616, and retcons are an attempt to keep a level of consistency that fans expect 

x-men the animated series managed to adapt the original comics in a way that improved the stories for the medium without changing them to the point of being unrecognizable, in fact the show works as a great introduction to people who want to start reading the comics. and the argument that the show has an inherent advantage due to being long running doesnt really work when it comes to the mcu and their new ability to release lotr size movies. 

listen, i dont believe that random directors and screenwriters hired by marvel (apart from ryan coogler and taika waititi and their respective teams) can do any better at creating compelling superhero stories than the best writers and artists to emerge from 80 years of marvel comics, and that because those stories come from a certain medium they don’t deserve to have a faithful adaptation, and im not interested in seeing filmmakers create a frankenstein out of those stories that have remained popular for a reason despite the literal thousands of other comics.  

it’s not like they are improving upon the source material or changing it specifically to work in film format, and often the changes are done in bad faith. such as nebula’s extremely diminished role in her own story, and how she is robbed of her moment of defying thanos in favor of tony stark. it’s also no coincidence that characters like tony stark and steve rogers get to stay relatively unchanged in origin and appearance while characters like the scarlet witch and quicksilver so diverged from the comics they don’t even bother to give wanda her real powers. its also no coincidence that mcu peter parker was given a huge amount of characterization and backstory from miles morales’ comics, and attached his character so closely to tony stark that its a huge detriment to peters character. or how the vision is considered worthy of mjolnir meanwhile pietro was killed in the first movie 

or, just look at bryan singer’s adaptation of x-men to see where a complete disregard of the source material leads. he banned comics on set specifically because he didn’t want to be corrected on the wild inaccuracy and misunderstanding of every single character in those movies, to the point of straight up disrespect, especially when it comes to such an important story like the x-men. rogues backstory involving her redemption and many female characters such as mystique and carol danvers and dazzler is disregarded in favor of a heterosexual romance and friendship with logan and then being terrorized by magneto. magneto himself is sabotaged in every way possible in the original trilogy, and then the remains are set on fire in the reboots. 

by all means try to actually improve on the source material by changing the outfits of the female characters and divesting them from the misogynistic writing of many comic creators, or getting rid of the vision completely, or adding more characters of color/giving more focus to those that already exist, or adding more lgbt characters, or treating characters with disabilities and mental disorders with respect and giving them actual agency. spiderverse diverged from the original comics greatly, but the creation of the film was largely informed by comic humor, pacing, aesthetics, and storytelling style unique to the medium, plus they were unable to use more material from the comic due to the mcu stealing it for peter. 

it is weird how with books the film adaptation is always evaluated in comparison to the original text and most of the time if a film deviates too much then fans and critics get upset about it especially if it has a negative impact on the story

but movie adaptations of comics arent held to that standard at all, not even a little. and if you complain that the movies are nothing like the comics you get 394747273 mcu fans telling you comics are trash and no one wants to see a faithful adaptation of them anyways. like literally what is the point of “adapting” a comic if all youre doing is lifting the name of the characters along with a few of their powers but otherwise changing everything so its completely unrecognizable as an adaptation of a comic story. like infinity war isnt even an adaptation of the comic its just random au fanfic and thats one of the mcu films that was actually kind of based on a comic storyline most of them dont even pretend to try

[ao3feed-buckybarnes]

Dreamers Often Lie

read it on the AO3 at http://ift.tt/2DiFzpM

by BrighteyedJill

As far as Bucky remembers, sex is something that is painful and terrifying if you wake up while it's happening. As the Asset, sleeping through sex was a rare treat. When Steve lets Bucky know he's interested in a sexual relationship, what Steve doesn't know is that they have fundamentally different ideas of what that entails.

Words: 908, Chapters: 1/9, Language: English

Fandoms: Marvel Cinematic Universe, Captain America (Movies)

Rating: Explicit

Warnings: Rape/Non-Con

Categories: M/M

Characters: James "Bucky" Barnes, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanov (Marvel), Sam Wilson (Marvel)

Relationships: James "Bucky" Barnes/Steve Rogers, James "Bucky" Barnes/Hydra Agents

Additional Tags: Somnophilia, Non-Consensual Somnophilia, Consensual Somnophilia, Extremely Dubious Consent, Past Rape/Non-con, Rape Aftermath, Rape/Non-con Elements, Misunderstandings, Butt Plugs, HYDRA Trash Party, Psychological Trauma, Self-Blame, confused about what actually constitutes sex, Nat is a good friend

read it on the AO3 at http://ift.tt/2DiFzpM

[itsallavengers]

Like for one thing they're misunderstanding the fundamental appeal of captain america- he's not SUPPOSED to have the party tricks. He's supposed to represent the inherent kindness of humanity, the little guy! He's supposed to be simple and his simplicity is supposed to be whats inspiring to people because we remember like, oh shit ye, this is the man who came from NOTHING, he was poor and sick and had one single person to call a friend, and yet despite all that he still managed to Do All This and still managed to be a Good Fucking Dude. Like thats his Thing! His power and strength should be shown in his tenacity, his refusal to give up, his HUMANITY. Being like 'yeah his shield and Strength are only fun for a few movies so we gotta rack it up a notch and give him THORS POWERS and IRON MAN'S ARMOUR' is a stupid move and totally misses the point of Steve Rogers. Those aren't the things that make him interesting/ a superhero and it's only gonna serve to piss off thor/tony fans while also making steve look like a shallow n weak character lmfao just let me write ur scripts marvel

Love how Captain America is clearly viewed as the most boring of the big three so the producers at disney constantly give him the traits of his colleagues. Thor's lightning in endgame. Tony's armour in the What If series. Like fhdkfjfl just admit that u think he's got no appeal and go.