#forgiveness even in war
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It's the fact the doctor still cries even when killing a monster, even when killing the creature that turned every universe into dust. Even then, he cries
#to me that's everything doctor who stands for#forgiveness even in war#doctor who#ncuti gatwa#15th doctor#season 13 finale
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In my Zeus bag today so I'm just gonna put it out there that exactly none of the great Ancient Greek warrior-heroes stayed loyal and faithful and completely monogamous and yet none of them have their greatness questioned nor do we question why they had the cultural prominence that they did and still do.
Jason, the brilliant leader of the Argo, got cold feet when it came to Medea - already put off by some of her magic and then exiled from his birthland because of her political ploys, he took Creusa to bed and fully intended on marrying her despite not properly dissolving things with Medea.
Theseus was a fierce warrior and an incredibly talented king but he had a horrible temper and was almost fatally weak to women. This is the man who got imprisoned in the Underworld for trying to get a friend laid, the man who started the whole Attic War because he couldn't keep his legs closed.
And we cannot at all forget Heracles for whom a not inconsiderable amount of his joy in life was loving people then losing the people around him that he loved. Wives, children, serving boys, mentors, Heracles had a list of lovers - male and female - long enough to rival some gods and even after completing his labours and coming down to the end of his life, he did not have one wife but three.
And y'know what, just because he's a cultural darling, I'll put Achilles up here too because that man was a Theseus type where he was fantastic at the thing he was born to do (that is, fight whereas Theseus' was to rule) but that was not enough to eclipse his horrid temper and his weakness to young pretty things. This is the man that killed two of Apollo's sons because they wouldn't let him hit - Tenes because he refused to let Achilles have his sister and Troilus who refused Achilles so vehemently that he ran into Apollo's temple to avoid him and still couldn't escape.
All four of these men are still celebrated as great heroes and men. All four of these men are given the dignity of nuance, of having their flaws treated as just that, flaws which enrich their character and can be used to discuss the wider cultural point of what truly makes a hero heroic. All four of these men still have their legacies respected.
Why can that same mindset not be applied to Zeus? Zeus, who was a warrior-king raised in seclusion apart from his family. Zeus who must have learned to embrace the violence of thunder for every time he cried as a babe, the Corybantes would bang their shields to hide the sound. Zeus learned to be great because being good would not see the universe's affairs in its order.
The wonderful thing about sympathy is that we never run out of it. There's no rule stopping us from being sympathetic to multiple plights at once, there's no law that necessitate things always exist on the good-evil binary. Yes, Zeus sentenced Prometheus to sufferation in Tartarus for what (to us) seems like a cruel reason. Prometheus only wanted to help humans! But when you think about Prometheus' actions from a king's perspective, the narrative is completely different: Prometheus stole divine knowledge and gifted it to humans after Zeus explicitly told him not to. And this was after Prometheus cheated all the gods out of a huge portion of wealth by having humans keep the best part of a sacrifice's meat while the gods must delight themselves with bones, fat and skin. Yes, Zeus gave Persephone away to Hades without consulting Demeter but what king consults a woman who is not his wife about the arrangement of his daughter's marriage to another king? Yes, Zeus breaks the marriage vows he set with Hera despite his love of her but what is the Master of Fate if not its staunchest slave?
The nuance is there. Even in his most bizarre actions, the nuance and logic and reason is there. The Ancient Greeks weren't a daft people, they worshipped Zeus as their primary god for a reason and they did not associate him with half the vices modern audiences take issue with. Zeus was a father, a visitor, a protector, a fair judge of character, a guide for the lost, the arbiter of revenge for those that had been wronged, a pillar of strength for those who needed it and a shield to protect those who made their home among the biting snakes. His children were reflections of him, extensions of his will who acted both as his mercy and as his retribution, his brothers and sisters deferred to him because he was wise as well as powerful. Zeus didn't become king by accident and it is a damn shame he does not get more respect.
#ginger rambles#ginger chats about greek myths#greek mythology#It's Zeus Apologist day actually#For the record Jason is my personal favourite of these guys#The argonauts are extremely underrated for literally no reason#And Jason's wit and sheer ability to adapt along with his piousness are traits that are so far away from what usually gets highlighted#with the typical Greek warrior-hero that I've just never stopped being captivated by him#Conversely I still do not understand what people see in Achilles#I respect him and his legacy I respect the importance of his tale and his cultural importance I promise I do#However I personally can't stand the guy LMAO#How do you get warned twice TWICE both by your mother and by Athena herself that going after Apollo's children is a bad idea#And still have the audacity to be mad and surprised when Apollo is gunning for Specifically You during the war you're bringing to His City#That You Specifically and Exclusively had a choice in avoiding#ACHILLES COULD'VE JUST SAID NO#I know that's not the point however so many other members of the Greek camp were simply casualties of Fate in every conceivable way man#Achilles looked at every terrible choice he could possibly make said “Well I'm gonna die anyway 🤷🏽” and proceeded to make the choice#so hard that he angered god#That's y'all's man right there#I left out Perseus because truthfully I don't actually know much about him#I haven't studied him even a fraction as much as I've studied some of the other big culture heroes and none of this is cited so i don't wan#to talk about stuff I don't know 100%#Anyway justice for Zeus fr#Gimme something give me literally anything other than the nonsense we usually get for him#This goes for Hera too btw#Both the king and queen of the skies are done TERRIBLY by wider greek myth audiences and it's genuinely disheartening to see#If y'all could make excuses for Achilles to forgive his flaws y'all can do it for them#They have a lot more to sympathise with I'll tell you that#(that is a completely biased statement; you are completely free and encouraged to enjoy whichever figures spark joy)#zeus
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Fox's position as the scapegoat in fandom is very interesting and something I honestly think the writers kind of made him to be.
The part of the fandom (which is...really large) that doesn't like him always blames him for Order 66, in saying that "if he hadn't killed Fives, then Order 66 wouldn't have happened". Interestingly, they never blame Anakin, who had even more direct power to stop it. Fox had no idea that anything was going on, and did what he had been taught to do from the moment he was created: Followed orders. He didn't shoot Fives because he necessarily wanted to; meaning there were no personal feelings attached to what happened. Anakin, on the other hand, went and voluntarily murdered a lot of people for only personal feelings. But somehow that is not Anakin's fault.
(I've posted about it before, but the same people who blame Fox are always happy to boast about Anakin murdering him. Always happy to bring out Anakin's trauma as a slave, and then be happy about him murdering another slave, someone directly under his power, who had never known anything else than being a slave in his entire life, and who had been indoctrinated from birth to believe that being slave was all that he was, and that he should be proud of it)
Some fics from people who do like Fox also put him in the position of the scapegoat, where they have all the other clones blaming him for everything that had happened, and ostracise him. In some fics I've seen, they continue this even after the war has ended, even in scenarios where Palpatine didn't win, and this feels like the clones, who have been made to believe in the system, cannot make themselves blame said system. No, it's easier to blame one of their own instead, no matter how little power Fox ever had in his entire life.
The writer's also do this, by having Fox mess something up (in the writer's eyes at the very least) almost every single time he is on screen. I think the only time he wasn't positioned to be in the wrong in some capacity was on his first appearance in the movie, where he did a front flip down some stairs and shot at the bad guy of the movie. Almost every single other time he is doing something wrong or messing something up, causing something negative to happen, be it the bombing on Coruscant (not actually his fault, but the fault of the people who wanted to do it and prevent the peace talks from happening; still, Fox is put in the middle of it), or what happened with Ahsoka (from Fox's point of view, there was a dangerous person on the run, who had just killed multiple people in a violent way, and was continuing their rampage, killing his brothers as well). Objectively speaking, Fox is completely in the right with everything he does here, but the writer's still seem to position him to being wrong, because he is against Ahsoka, and Ahsoka is the character the viewer is supposed to be rooting for (no matter how much worse she actively makes her own situation during the arc).
No one ever remembers all the good qualities he had: he was hard-working, capable, brave, and cared for his brothers. No, instead, the fandom is endlessly debating over giving him, a slave who never knew anything else, some shred of dignity, while freely giving the absolution to the fascist who is standing over his still warm corpse.
#then again the canon also works hard to forgive Anakin for everything#which is a can of worms itself#I understand the purpose of that narrative and I understand that in the original trilogy it was more about Luke than it was about Anakin#but the current narrative is never being interesting and truly looking at his character with a critical eye#or even truly portraying him critically#the ahsoka show waved its hand to that direction but missed the actual target by a mile#anyway free Fox from Felony and the narrative he was put in#sw#tcw#commander fox#anakin skywalker#star wars meta
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I love the fact that the Silvermane Guards are essentially just a very devoted "We Love Gepard Landau" fanclub, and I desperately need for all of them to get into ship wars about it behind their Captain's back. The soldiers are all split into several factions:
Some of them ship him with Sampo 🛡💣 (enemies to lovers/hateship enjoyers; this does not necessarily mean they like Sampo- in fact it's more like most of them want to sic their Captain on him skzjsmdm)
Some of them ship him with Bronya 👑🛡 (knight and princess trope enjoyers and also a sorta-kinda "that is our mom and dad" type of deal; this faction gets riled up and ridiculously hypes Gepard up to Bronya every time she comes down to the frontlines mskdkxmd)
Some of them ship him with the trailblazer 🛡💫 (the smallest and newest faction, but steadily gaining!)
Some of them ship him with Pela ❄🛡 (workplace romance enjoyers; Gepard once charged out into the Fragmentum alone to save Pela from an expedition gone horribly wrong, and when this faction saw Gepard carrying Pela back princess style they threw a whole party)
Some of them ship him with Dunn 🛡🗡 (also workplace romance; Dunn is very flattered by this because yeah wrong Landau, but wow, the troops really think he's good enough to woo the Captain, what an honor)
And some of them ship themselves with the Captain 🛡❤ (yumejoshi enjoyers; this faction throws a massive group effort every Valentine's Day and are also all very supportive of each other)
The final faction is an odd one, because they're defined not by who they ship their beloved Captain Gepard with, but rather by who they don't ship him with. Their name is generally shortened to the A.B.S. Group- Anybody BUT Sampo 🚫💣 DKSZJJSMSOZ
#honkai star rail#gepard landau#hsr gepard#gepo#sampard#bronpard#gepela#gepdunn#sampo koski#bronya rand#pelageya sergeyevna#dunn#I'm so happy Hoyo gave us TWO knight and princess ships with bronseele and bronpard. two cakes!!#and I actually do love bronpard but I think it'd be hilarious if that faction dissolved the second they saw bronseele together nskzjskdk#same with the gepela faction and pelynx haha#every time Bronya comes down to the frontlines she tends to gravitate towards Gepard and the bronpard faction kicks into high gear skzjkske#they ask Gepard to show them proper form with a weapon or to tell some of his exploits. anything to make him look cool in front of Bronya.#'Madame Supreme Guardian we heard Captain Gepard took down a direwolf THIS big-' XD#I don't even ship Gepard and Dunn but I do think it's really sweet how Gepard talks about him-#-and how grateful he is that the trailblazer didn't seriously injure him during the main quest.#I think that if they had then Gepard would not be NEARLY as kind or forgiving of them. Dunn is one of his. he's protective of all of his me#the gepo/sampard and ABS group are the ones most at war with each other#every time Gepard gets the soldiers to split into teams it gets vicious XD#like I need some red vs blue shenanigans with the Guards you feel me. i need them to play capture the flag and get way too into it amsjmsks#pela has taken writing commissions for every ship under disguise- including gepela so she wouldn't seem suspicious#someone once claimed she wrote Pela way ooc and demanded a refund at the last second and Pela nearly strangled them HSKKZSNKSKD#hsr
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I know she's called Elisif the Fair because she's beautiful but it'd be so much more interesting if she's called that because she's very fair and just. She hears everyone out and tries to solve things, and is often much more emotionally perceptive than people give her credit for.
#this is canon. to me#i think this would also play into how Ulfric spares her and her swearing fealty or whatever he makes her say#she knows hes won the war fair. and she is fair.#even if she'll never forgive him.#(nor should she)
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Personal headcanon about the "you picked the wrong dellamorte" line, I don't think illario actually likes rook outside the context of them being someone close to lucanis. Like rook on their own isn't much to him, but when they meet it's yet another person talking about his cousin (why isn't he good enough for whatever job they're hiring for?) and on top of that they somehow bring him back from the dead (another whole can of worms for illario). Now he starts turning on the charm, but whether he's actually interested or this is just one more thing his cousin has that he doesn't and it gets under his skin, who knows. Either way, rook ignores illario, the guy who lives off his charm, and is instead interested in the guy who's never even dated before and thinks giving someone a knife is how to flirt. Infuriating
NO THANK YOU !! i am genuinely sorry if i have ever implied illario is into rook like i see some takes about it and unless it like ties into your rook's personal backstory i don't seriously think he's romantically jealous. at all. my enjoyment of that line stems from illario's pathological need to make it about himself and not see his strengths but what lucanis has, and therefore what he doesn't. he's annoyed enough to try and goad you in the middle of a fight about the 'wrong' dellamorte and completely blind to the fact that the venatori are at best, a stupid fucking alliance, and at worst, a cult that will devour the crows from the inside out and illario would have been the one to give them the keys. he sees lucanis make allies, needs his own, and instead of charming the other talons/houses as he should, he (probably spitefully) picks the venatori. or maybe he just thought it would be easier. ugh he makes me want to telekenetically throw him around
#and you raise a very hilarious point too LMFAO#not that he is jealous. just mad as hell its not working <3 I LIKE HIM VERY MUCH AND A NORMAL AMOUNT#to be clear i think his characterisation changed dramatically from wigmaker's job and a lot of his uh#very rash decisions about achieving power feels like they just needed a traitor character for lucanis#to really max out the use of spite. i really wish honestly that there was some canon support for illario#who would probably be a little more liked/popular than lucanis. bc lucanis is respected by the crows#but he's also a very distant 'dellamorte heir' figure. respect is not the same as being liked. so you know#there's the serious assassin with a rep for how good he is at killing#and there's a friendlier assassin with a rep for sweet talking#and neither of those reputations are necessarily true. but i know which one i'd be less afraid of#and i think illario would know that. and be able to use that. BUT WE DONT GET IT. WHATEVER.....#illario dellamorte#veilguard spoilers#answered#also we're introduced to an illario that understands being a crow. and has had all that drilled into him since childhood#why. would he. ally with the venatori.#why would he put himself into a situation that he couldnt control. other than 'the story needs a villain'#what im trying to say. is . there were the makings of a crow civil war here that ends with him tragically dead#if you asked me to expand on this i dont think i could. but like the main issue being the crows not standing together making#the antaam invasion worse (btw regarding this why the fuck were the antaam even invading) so lucanis' quest is#idk. something like uniting the crows together and potentially repairing his relationship w illario#or hardening him and convincing he needs to kill illario#this is me spitballing. dont even mind me#(glances at the 'illario mention' alarm going off in the background)#EDIT: AND ALSO IT JUST CAME TO ME#killing illario as an ending also makes lucanis first talon (oh we're really in the cycles now)#forgiving illario ends with illario becoming 'talon' tho he and lucanis work closely. like a ceo vs cfo#and ends with them repairing their relationship#in the ideal world lucanis would fully leave but im alright with crows making small steps towards becoming a bit healthier
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Definitely the wrong interpretation of Padmé’s character to say that she wouldn’t have stayed with Anakin had she lived. Of course, in the context that he remains Vader, it’s obvious she wouldn’t stay by his side then, she’d be actively against him. But a redeemed Vader, that’s once again Anakin Skywalker? There’s no doubt that her undying love for him overpowers all. He’d have a looooot to make up for, but Padmé is the kind of person who’d be on that journey alongside him. Padmé said it herself that they’d always be “one” no matter what happened. She was always ready and willing to forgive him no matter what he did, or where he went. She was always going to his, just as much as he was always hers.
And we see this very clearly even after what’s happened on Mustafar, and after Padmé found out that everything she heard was the truth. But there’s a reason why she still had unwavering faith in Anakin. She knew he still had goodness in him, and she wanted him back. She didn’t fight tooth and nail on Mustafar to bring him back to her, begging him to stop and tell him that she loves him, only to leave him in the end. She wanted him back more than anything. Why? Because she wanted to be with him. To run away to the lakes on Naboo, where she can live out her days with him and their kid(s).
❉ ❉ ❉
“The most powerful, the most repressed thought of all could have emerged from the darkness: Padmé … and her undying love for someone he once knew well. And despite all the terrible, unspeakable things he’d done in his life, he suddenly realized he could not stand by and allow the Emperor to kill their son. And in that moment, he was no longer Darth Vader.”
[Ryder Windham’s Episode VI: Return of the Jedi novelization]
#star wars#anidala#anakin skywalker#padmé amidala#sw novels#return of the jedi junior novelization#meta#padmé study#anidala study#anakin study#she was even crying out for him till her very last breath#if that doesn’t speak volumes of how she wasn’t able to let him go idk what does#i mean… she literally dies because she loses him to the darkside#she wanted to be with him more than anything and wanted him back desperately#also the fact that luke is her parallel in this aspect of the narrative#luke was forgiving and would want to be with his father#he got that loving and forgiving nature of himself from his mother#but only after he was redeemed and saved from the darkside#just like padmé wanted#it’s right there
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Tpw didn’t get booktok famous cause they were not ready for the complexity of Altan and Rin
#it takes effort to understand Altan#even more to forgive him#everything ab it is so complicated#but at the end of the day they were just kids#tpw#the poppy war#fang runin#altan trengsin#chen kitay#nezha
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Prince Rhaegar as a character often gets some deserved criticism - and a lot of underserved hate. And one of the things that I think he unfairly gets blamed for is Elia Martell's tragedy. Elia's death is one of the primary objections people have towards Rhaegar and Lyanna being depicted as a romance, with readers believing that if they were just tragic lovers, then that diminishes Elia's own tragedy.
I...disagree. It is understandable (and honestly right) that readers would rally behind Elia. Not only was she horribly brutalized and murdered, but her children suffered absolutely terrible fates as well.
However, in trying to center Rhaegar and Lyanna's doomed dalliance in this, a lot of readers are missing the answer that has been already provided to us within the narrative. Not only that, but this line of thinking also ignores the key context in which Elia's senseless murder is portrayed.
As far as the text goes, Elia’s death is laid squarely at the feet of Tywin Lannister and his men, Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Amory Lorch. It's House Lannister's burden to bear.
Doran for one, Elia's brother, directly blames Tywin Lannister:
“You mistake patience for forbearance. I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children.”
The Princess in the Tower, AFFC
Even Oberyn agrees:
“Dwarf,” said the Red Viper, in a tone grown markedly less cordial, “spare me your Lannister lies. Is it sheep you take us for, or fools? My brother is not a bloodthirsty man, but neither has he been asleep for sixteen years. Jon Arryn came to Sunspear the year after Robert took the throne, and you can be sure that he was questioned closely. Him, and a hundred more. I did not come for some mummer’s show of an inquiry. I came for justice for Elia and her children, and I will have it. Starting with this lummox Gregor Clegane … but not, I think, ending there. Before he dies, the Enormity That Rides will tell me whence came his orders, please assure your lord father of that.” He smiled. “An old septon once claimed I was living proof of the goodness of the gods. Do you know why that is, Imp?”
Tyrion IV, ASOS
“Is that the game we are playing?” Tyrion rubbed at his scarred nose. He had nothing to lose by telling Oberyn the truth. “There was a bear at Harrenhal, and it did kill Ser Amory Lorch.” “How sad for him,” said the Red Viper. “And for you. Do all noseless men lie so badly, I wonder?” “I am not lying. Ser Amory dragged Princess Rhaenys out from under her father’s bed and stabbed her to death. He had some men-at-arms with him, but I do not know their names.” He leaned forward. “It was Ser Gregor Clegane who smashed Prince Aegon’s head against a wall and raped your sister Elia with his blood and brains still on his hands.” “What is this, now? Truth, from a Lannister?” Oberyn smiled coldly. “Your father gave the commands, yes?” “No.” He spoke the lie without hesitation, and never stopped to ask himself why he should. The Dornishman raised one thin black eyebrow. “Such a dutiful son. And such a very feeble lie. It was Lord Tywin who presented my sister’s children to King Robert all wrapped up in crimson Lannister cloaks.”
Tyrion IX, ASOS
“Elia Martell, Princess of Dorne,” the Red Viper hissed. “You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children…“I came to hear you confess.”
Tyrion X, ASOS
Varys and Tyrion both understand that House Martell (but more specifically Doran) hates the Lannisters.
“The Dornishmen thus far have held aloof from these wars. Doran Martell has called his banners, but no more. His hatred for House Lannister is well known, and it is commonly thought he will join Lord Renly. You wish to dissuade him.” “All this is obvious,” said Tyrion. “The only puzzle is what you might have offered for his allegiance. The prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe.” “My father once told me that a lord never lets sentiment get in the way of ambition … and it happens we have an empty seat on the small council, now that Lord Janos has taken the black.” “A council seat is not to be despised,” Varys admitted, “yet will it be enough to make a proud man forget his sister’s murder?” “Why forget?” Tyrion smiled. “I’ve promised to deliver his sister’s killers, alive or dead, as he prefers. After the war is done, to be sure.” Varys gave him a shrewd look. “My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a … certain name … when they came for her.” “Is a secret still a secret if everyone knows it?” In Casterly Rock, it was common knowledge that Gregor Clegane had killed Elia and her babe. They said he had raped the princess with her son’s blood and brains still on his hands. “This secret is your lord father’s sworn man.” “My father would be the first to tell you that fifty thousand Dornishmen are worth one rabid dog.” Varys stroked a powdered cheek. “And if Prince Doran demands the blood of the lord who gave the command as well as the knight who did the deed …” “Robert Baratheon led the rebellion. All commands came from him, in the end.” “Robert was not at King’s Landing.” “Neither was Doran Martell.”
Tyrion IV, ACOK
Really, all the nobles know where to look at when assigning blame for Elia's murder. Tywin.
“Prince Doran comes at my son’s invitation,” Lord Tywin said calmly, “not only to join in our celebration, but to claim his seat on this council, and the justice Robert denied him for the murder of his sister Elia and her children.” Tyrion watched the faces of the Lords Tyrell, Redwyne, and Rowan, wondering if any of the three would be bold enough to say, “But Lord Tywin, wasn’t it you who presented the bodies to Robert, all wrapped up in Lannister cloaks?” None of them did, but it was there on their faces all the same. Redwyne does not give a fig, he thought, but Rowan looks fit to gag.
Tywin, for the most part, quite shamelessly tries to disassociate himself from his own moral failings; this is nothing new, because he follows this same MO with squarely blaming the Freys for the Red Wedding even though he played an integral part in planning for it.
“Then why did the Mountain kill her?” “Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark’s van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do.” He closed a fist. “Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape … even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of … two? Three? He said she’d kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow.” His mouth twisted in distaste. “The blood was in him.”
Tyrion VI, ASOS
“And when Oberyn demands the justice he’s come for?” “I will tell him that Ser Amory Lorch killed Elia and her children,” Lord Tywin said calmly. “So will you, if he asks.” “Ser Amory Lorch is dead,” Tyrion said flatly. “Precisely. Vargo Hoat had Ser Amory torn apart by a bear after the fall of Harrenhal. That ought to be sufficiently grisly to appease even Oberyn Martell.” “You may call that justice …” “It is justice. It was Ser Amory who brought me the girl’s body, if you must know. He found her hiding under her father’s bed, as if she believed Rhaegar could still protect her. Princess Elia and the babe were in the nursery a floor below.”
Tyrion VI, ASOS
Tywin tries to alleviate himself of any responsibility by blaming his men, but the narrative actively calls bullshit on this (through Tywin's own son no less).
So the narrative shows through multiple POVs that Elia's murder is contextualized exclusively as a failing on Tywin Lannister and his men; not only was it a moral failing, but Tyrion also questions if it was politically necessary in the first place. It's also important to note that ASOS is when we really dive into the matter of Elia and her children (mostly through Oberyn), but we also have to remember that this is the same book as the Red Wedding. The Red Wedding, another one of Tywin's senseless massacres that he tries to postulate as politically necessary.
So, we have agreed that the blame and context for Elia's (and her children's) murder is presented through the lens of Tywin as an immoral politician who often makes politically unnecessary moves. But then we ask ourselves, can the responsibility of this tragedy be extended? Well, yes it can. And it has been in the text.
Ser Barristan extends this tragedy beyond Tywin and his men
...to King Robert.
“Prince Rhaegar had two children,” Ser Barristan told him. “Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King’s Landing, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up in crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king.” And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin’s gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar’s children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. “I will not suffer the murder of children. Accept that, or I’ll have no part of this.”
The Kingbreaker, ADWD
Ned Stark does as well.
Ned did not feign surprise; Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.
Eddard II, AGOT
And so does Tywin, who uses Robert's tacit approval as justification for this senseless act.
Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. “You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert’s cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert’s relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar’s children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.” His father shrugged. “I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing.”
Tyrion VI, ASOS
So if we can't extend the blame to Rhaegar, because the narrative doesn't do so either, what can we hold him responsible for? Let's take a step back and look at Rhaegar's culpability in this whole thing.
Was Rhaegar (and Lyanna) responsible for starting the war that would eventually lead to Elia's murder?
No. GRRM doesn't think so. The war actually started when King Aerys murdered the Lord of Winterfell and his heir, a bunch of other northern nobles, and then called for the heads of Robert Baratheon (Lord of Storm's End) and Ned Stark (the new Lord of Winterfell). Aerys broke the feudal contract, and so Jon Arryn declared war.
I don't think I would have stayed loyal to the Mad King. Do I think they were justified? Yes, and no. [...] There was no doubt that the Mad King was mad. He was paranoid and he was abusing his power. And Westeros has no Magna Carta or anything like that. There was no way to handle this within the rule of law. But was what they do justified? Especially when you consider that it was triggered by a personal grievance. The execution of Ned's father and brother was really a thing that radicalized Ned and put him in opposition to it. Robert was just rolling for a fight and didn't like the fact that he'd lost his girlfriend. So you know, the personal informs the political.
source
Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance was merely the spark - it led to a misunderstanding that caused Brandon Stark to ride to Kingslanding. What really caused the war was Aerys' Targaryens subsequent actions as the king. So if we want to blame someone for causing the chain of events that led to Elia's death as well as her children's, the author himself says to blame Aerys; even though I don't think this is right either because we once again stray from the necessary (and sole) context of Elia's murder - Tywin's bloody hands.
Fine. Rhaegar was not responsible for the war. But surely he is responsible for leaving Elia in King's Landing, right in the clutches of Mad King Aerys. Well, this again, is not true. As far as Rhaegar knew, Elia was in Dragonstone with Aegon and Rhaenys where he left them.
As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon.
“The Year of the False Spring”, The World of Ice and Fire
At some point, Elia was called to King's Landing. And it was Aerys who kept her hostage there as insurance against possible Dornish betrayal (remember, he was paranoid).
Side Note: Aerys kept another important political hostage in King's Landing along with Elia - Jaime Lannister; this is to deter anyone from trying to blame Jaime for doing nothing. He was a teenager and a hostage himself!
“My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father’s son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all.” He remembered how Rossart’s eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. “Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I’ll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him … that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.
Jaime V, ASOS
Ok, fine. So Rhaegar did not abandon her with Aerys then run off to Lyanna. But he should have done something when he came back, right? Why didn't he leave more Kings Guard with Elia and the children?
Well....this is a war. The knights of the KG are important assets on the battle field. Kings Landing, at the time, was not the most dangerous location. The KG were better off at the Trident, as a victory there would protect those who were left behind in KL.
And it's not that Rhaegar didn't do anything. Beyond going off to lead the battle himself, he tried to make moves that would help those who were back in KL (Elia and the children included).
He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King’s Landing. Beneath Baelor’s Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.
Jaime V ASOS
And Jaime's POV once again shows us that Rhaegar banked on victory at the Trident, and was fully expecting to come back to KL and amend the fraught political situation.
The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. “Your Grace,” Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.” Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.” Jaime’s anger had risen up in his throat. “I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard.” “Then guard the king,” Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.” Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but … well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”
Jaime I, AFFC
So Rhaegar wasn't leaving with no care about what happened back in King's Landing. We don't know what he wanted to do with Aerys, Elia, Lyanna, and the aftermath of the war because he died at the Trident. But we do know that he, at the very least, was planning to do something.
So we can't blame Rhaegar (and Lyanna) for starting the war and we can't blame him either for abandoning Elia in King's Landing with no care about what happens next. So, again, what can we blame him for?
“It's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution.”
SSM, 09/11/1999
GRRM states that Dorne was angry about Rhaegar's treatment of Elia. What is this treatment, though?
Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap.
Eddard XV, AGOT
Specifically, Rhaegar riding past Elia to crown Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty. Yes, that is a humiliation. And it's undeniable that no one was happy.
The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause…Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor…Eddard Stark, Brandon’s younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased.
“The Year of the False Spring”, The World of Ice and Fire
But, humiliating Elia is not the same thing as being responsible for her death. The narrative never equates these two things in any way. Elia's death is about Tywin's immoral and blood thirsty political actions. It's about Dorne's desire for justice (or is it vengeance?) which they know they will not get from the Lannister regime. House Lannister's downfall in King's Landing will be brought about by Prince Aegon's rise - Aegon who is proclaiming to be the long lost son of Prince Rhaegar, and who is being supported by House Martell as of now.
We can criticize Rhaegar for some things, but Elia's death is surely not one of them.
#I generally don't like talking about the whole rhaegar-lyanna-elia stuff partly because I don't really care for either of them#but mostly because these topics often devolve into extremes that help absolutely no one#but I just wanted to hop on here and say that blaming rhaegar for elia's death is imo not cannon compliant#the narrative already give us an answer to this - THE LANNISTERS but more specifically TYWIN and GREGOR and AMORY#it's not rhaegar or lyanna or their child Jon to bear any of the blame in this#dorne's decision to join the war against the crown is entirely because it's in opposition to the lannister regime#that's not to say that rhaegar cannot have responsibility for the humiliation of elia - because even grrm says he does#but saying he bears the blame for her murder is just a bit.....😕#also rhaegar is one thing but blaming LYANNA of all people is ummm well#rhaegar targaryen#robert's rebellion#tywin lannister#ser gregor clegane#ser amory lorch#house martell#elia martell#asoiaf#valyrianscrolls#pls forgive any spelling and grammatical mistakes its midnights and I'm tired af thanks#my stuff
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The one thing I don't understand about the theory where Piltover and Zaun are teaming up to fight Noxus in the end, is why are Vi and Ekko flying towards Jinx's supposed airship if they're on the same team? Why does Vi NEED to confront Jinx in the middle of a warzone?
We see Ekko in garb that looks like he's on Jinx's side, but we mostly see him with the Firelights in those scenes, and they not decorated in Jinx's colors. Even minor background characters that are on Jinx/Sevika's side have a pink X on the right side of their chest. The Firelights are completely free of any graffiti or markers that would identify them with Jinx, and Vi is in an enforcer uniform. We don't see any other Zaunites in the crowd, but for some reason Vi and Ekko are centering their concentration on Jinx.
I think what's happening is that Ambessa's forces are fighting against Piltover's enforcers, but Jinx isn't helping, she's taking advantage of the chaos. Jinx is probably in Piltover to do something big that Piltover can't defend against since they're preoccupied with Noxus. Jinx will probably think the fight between Noxus and Piltover is the best opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. Vi and Ekko will probably object, they'll say her plan goes too far, and it'll get people killed. The whole scenario will probably be a more extreme mirror to whatever the Silco flashback will reveal about what went down on the Day of Ash and why Vander tried to kill Silco, except this time with magic.
#arcane#arcane meta#jinx arcane#vi arcane#ekko arcane#i know everyone's having a great time dissecting the trailer but the trailer for s1 wasn’t even that vague to begin with#sure you couldn't guess the WHOLE plot but me as a non league person could see#“red head has beef with eye dude”#“rich people either oblivious or super mad about poor people doing stuff”#“magic stuff is happening”#is the s2 trailer really any different?#also christian linke keeps hammering that the show is about if you can forgive a sibling that's a monster#and he's not that subtle when he's implying that the “monster” is silco and jinx in the metaphor (probably viktor too)#but what has jinx done so far that’s really THAT monstrous for her to stand distinct from the oppression of piltover#i think the show's gonna have jinx contemplate what it means to be lionized and valued by the general population#meanwhile Caitlyn's gonna do a lot of messed up stuff as means of asserting control over the situation and keeping piltover “safe”#caitlyn will probably REALLY cross the line and it'll involve jinx#cait will reavaluate her morals and break off from ambessa and jinx will be like “I'm gonna show you what a war arc is”#and move into Viktor's cult for a power up before leaving to destroy piltover and noxus#and also ekko's character description say he and heimerdinger will save zaun#so what's the magical problem that they build a magical solution for? ...it's jinx
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Currently screaming MY BOY HAS COME HOME!
Now I only need the Obi-Wan one so the boys can be together forever😭💖
#sorry for qui-gon i love him but i dont want to biy his figure#even if it means not having the full set#forgive me qui-gon#star wars#darth maul
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This was the best ending they could give to us…I started crying so badly
This show means a lot to me. In a way I don’t even understand why. But those characters? Hunter and Omega. They changed me so much. They are so important to me
So, seeing them get a proper happy ending, together, in a dear like in Pabu, just felt…like a dream.
I’m not used to happy endings to stories. This was one I was sure would end with tragedy.
But it didn’t. I wish Tech was still here, with them. Cuz now they are a family actually being able to be one. Without the war…
They got rest and love…
Hunter and Omega, my most beloveds. I love you forever.
#ending so good I could even forgive giving old Hunter an ugly beard#cuz the hair combo was Fantastic…#samurai hunter…#and older omega…#am I still dreaming…?#I can’t believe that happened…#this…this was#so much I could’ve wished for#I’m in so much shock#anyway#Hunter was pregnant in that last scene ✌️ trust#Sergeant Hunter#this character changed my life. and I will keep loving you#Omega TBB#she is the best child character ever and seeing her grow up was just…wow#also we did get wet haired Hunter I’m shocked#The Bad Batch#Star Wars
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Kilindi and Maul
#kilindi matako#maul star wars#darth maul fanart#darth maul#starwars#starwars art#art#digital art#artist on tumblr#god closes the door on me as I repent#I pry at it piece by piece and yet it remains closed on me#even then I do not stop asking for forgiveness#god is very busy watering dead plants#he does not notice me
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You know when I originally suggested that maybe Dragon is the one who gave Crocodile his scar and/or took his left hand --if only because [Dragon not recognizing the big scary man with a baby when he was supposed to go see his wife, assuming the worst and acting accordingly] would make for an A-Class tragedy and great fucking drama (something which I would expect to see in One Piece)-- I wasn't fully convinced with the idea, I just considdered it just another option on What Could Have Happened between those two to get us where we are ...But the more I think about it, the more I've started to kind of believe it. And for two key reasons, first being kind of everything we know about Whitebeard, and the second being the basic logistics around the suggested scenario to begin with
By which I mean; if Dragon had indeed gone to see his wife so he could deliver their newborn baby to Garp, but instead came face-to-face with a man he had never seen before but who just happened to have the exact same and very specific facial scar as his wife and/or the same god damn hook... Like I can't say he SHOULD be able to recognize Crocodile instantly, but also, surely either of those features would make him stop for a moment think and/or talk before he'd jump into action, let alone if the man had both the scar and the hook. Of course, there is an argument to be made that maybe Crocodile had a smaller hook originally that no longer fit on his wrist after getting jacked so maybe Crocodile just wasn't wearing any hook at all, and a missing limb isn't an unusual disability on its own, at least not enough to faze Dragon. And who knows, maybe the two were supposed to meet on a dark and stormy night, in which case between the low light and the rain it could've been hard for Dragon to see any scars on Crocodile's face from a distance. These are both reasonable arguments, absolutely. But, as I have mentioned a few times before, sometimes the path of least resistance might be the most likely option as far as story speculation goes. If Crocodile had both his hands and no scar on his face, then Dragon wouldn't have had any way to immidiately and instantly recognize Croc (aside from his fashion sense) as he would've been missing (what we would now considder) his most distinquishing features. Which would it much easier for Dragon to jump into action and attack the strange man without a second thought.
And then there's Whitebeard. Whitebeard, who was kind of famous for stomping rookie pirates only to invite them to join his crew as his "sons", but who also had a weird thing about not having women in his crew (his nurses aside), because he believed "women do not belong on a battlefield". For one, that actually kind of supports the "Crocodile is openly trans" theory because, again, how the fuck would Croc have been pre-t AND stealth as a Wardlord getting his shit kicked in by Whitebeard? Like it's not impossible, as we have discussed many times before (and that is not the point of this post!!), but once again it would be easier to just assume Crocodile was still living as a woman at this point in time. And indeed, that could answer the question of "why would Whitebeard not invite Crocodile into his crew to be one of his children like Ace and everyone else?". If Croc was still living and presenting as a woman at this point, Whitebeard would not have even wanted him in his crew. (Sidenote but since Whitebeard seemed to have no issues with Jinbei hanging around the Moby Dick despite being a Warlord I don't think Crocodile's Shichibukai status should've had any impact on WB's ability to invite him to his crew. To be fair though, Jinbei did join the Shichibukai much later so it is possible WB could've just changed his position on the subject over the years) And that leads to this question; if Whitebeard has that kind of views on women, then would he ever go as far as to severely injure and scar (someone he viewed as) a woman right on their face? With an attack that could have very easily chopped Crocodile's entire head in half like a god damn burger bun if he weren't careful? Do you think Whitebeard would have chopped Crocodile's left hand off and left him permanently disabled if he viewed him as a woman who shouldn't be a fighter to begin with? Yes, to be fair, we do not know the circumstances under which Crocodile challenged Whitebeard into a fight and what kind of a pirate Crocodile had been up until that point, what his reputation had been and if he had done anything in particular to invite Whitebeard's wrath (much like Kid and Barto with Shanks). Like for all we know he could've done something truly heinous and fucked up enough that Whitebeard thought teaching him a lesson was justified.
Just, looking at all of these notes together, I can't help but to feel that it's actually very plausible Dragon could be the one responsible for one of Crocodile's injuries if not both (if Crocodad Real).
#Moon posting#OP Meta#Sir Crocodile#Crocodad#Dragodile#Also yeah if Dragon did Do That to Croc then that would explain why they PRESUMABLY haven't seen nor talked to each other in like 19 years#Like how would you feel if you found out you almost killed your beloved and left him permanently disabled. How would you ever even apologiz#How would you ever go about begging for forgiveness from someone else when you'd probably never be able to forgive YOURSELF to begin with#Like yes it would have been a tragic accident but also like. That's your significant other. Or at least WAS.#You know me I'm a sucker for Tragic (and Extremely Divorced) Dragodile#Sitenote but if Crocodile hadn't even figured out his Gender Shit yet when fighting Whitebeard then like#Whitebeard beating his ass but refusing to do anything drastic because he didn't want to "hurt a woman'' would like#Like that might not crack an egg but god damn would that fucking feel BAD (in a way he didn't quite understand) and be humiliating#Also yes it is possible WB would've given Croc at least one of his injuries. Absolutely viable. I just don't think he did BOTH#Also like if you subscribe to the Croc is Xebec's son theory then that alone would give Croc enough beef with WB to explain Summit War#It's not a requirement for WB to have taken Croc's hand for Croc to have a vendetta against WB (with that theory in mind at least)
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some stuff we could've had in The Dragon Republic but didnt and I wish we did
kitay and chaghan hating each other ON SIGHT. i believe from the bottom of my heart they spent the entire book trying to assassinate each other in increasingly covert ways
more rin and qara friendship!!!! we were so robbed tbh
quara and VENKA friendship!!!! archers!!!!
kitay and ramsa scheming together. idk it just makes sense, them being the only two not-shamans. besides i think ramsa's chaos would go well with kitay's big brilliant brain and by that i mean they would do horrible unspeakable things together and no one would be able to stop them <3
#my art#the poppy war#the dragon republic#kitay is a younger brother and it shows and ramsa also has little brother energy#also kitay is clearly not capable of controlling his unhinged friends (see: rin) so i can only imagine what he and ramsa would get up to#chaghan and kitay are polar opposites of everything with kitay being the rational down to earth guy and chaghan being the#what does altan call him#a psychospiritual time bomb or something#but that's not even why i think they'd hate each other i just think they're both too bitchy to get along#qara's entire character arc (none) is rf kuang's worst mistake and i will not forgive her <3 justice for qara!!!
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Zutaras are really the original self-insert, "we understand the story soooooo much better than everybody else" girlies and they just never moved on
#anti zutara#no offense to anyone who ships it and follows me but I'm so over the shipping wars of this show that aired almost 20 years ago 😭#at some point you guys are gonna need to hang it up cause there's a sequel series and these people are married with children like...#we get it if you were Katara you would've chosen Zuko but guess what?! you aren't and need to stop projecting onto her#the pretending to care about Katara is what really gets me cause she's never even implied to have romantic feelings for him#or vice-versa + it ignores her anger towards him and how long it took her to forgive him + rightfully so#criticizing the writing for Kataang is one thing but turning around and shipping Zutara while doing so is crazy work#ship it if you want but please stop pretending it makes more sense when both Zuko and Katara have their own separate romances 😭#love how people have to age Aang down + infantilize him and erase Mai to make it work but sure it's the better option#stop erasing Katara's arc and development just to claim that Aang brings her down when she's been a bad-ass since season 1#reducing her arc to that ONE moment with Zuko and ignoring all of her other development just to prop up a ship is nasty#Katara isn't a reward for Aang and she sure as hell isn't one for Zuko stop belittling her like that#if y'all didn't watch ATLA when you were 12 and think Zuko was cute this ship wouldn't even exist#thinking about that post that said the writers /pandered to dudebros/ like we all weren't children the delusion is crazy sdfssdfsdfsd#also seeing AANG of all characters getting whacked for a ship...please get a life and stay away from him#antizutara
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