#feel free to ignore me because I'm just thinking of RWBY again

[kitkatopinions]

The thing about RWBY volume 10 is... I don't even want it anymore.

Like, when it was first announced that Rooster Teeth was shutting down, I admit that although I was very happy that the company could no longer abuse its employees, I was still kind of disappointed that we might not get more RWBY. Yes, I kind of hate RWBY (I hate and love it,) but I personally never was out to 'destroy the show' or something, and I legit wanted to see where they were going with it and to see what I could get from it.

But it's been a while since then, and I feel like every time I even get a hint that RWBY might be coming back for season 10, my reaction is:

Because the thing is, I know - I just know - that whatever they decide to do is going to be bad and near incomprehensible. But even if they somehow sort of manage to make the next volume somewhat good... There's literally no way to salvage the show without an entire reboot with all new writers, and I truly believe that at this point. I watched all of volumes 1-5 for the first time practically in one setting, and boy the whole thing had some rough parts, but I thought they had a chance to come back stronger and try to fix things, and then every season since, I've thought the same and have come up with tons of things they could do and all the good directions they could take characters and events. But it's been nine seasons, and season nine was the worst written season yet and really just gave the writers a whole host of new problems they have to address and new corners they've backed themselves into and at a certain point and after V9, there's just no fixing it because after nine seasons, it would feel weird to backtrack and there's nothing they could do going forward that would fix this bad show.

To bring up a minor example, if they made a new season where they acknowledged that Blake and Ruby have barely talked since the first season, it would retroactively make the 'you inspire me' 'meaningful moment' in volume eight feel really weird, and it would be really weird that they were only starting to be friends in the tenth volume after more than a decade. But if the writers continue to write the occasional 'meaningful moment' between Blake and Ruby without actually trying to establish a friendship and bond between them, it'll continue to feel forced and unearned, and if they're written to just ignore each other completely instead, it'll continue to feel like they don't even really know each other and aren't at all friends, and therefore the show constantly being like 'Ruby's friends love her, they have the power of friendship, I'll defeat you with the power of friendship and this gun I found' will ring hollow when what's being marketed as a team of four feels like two people dating and then also two other people who walk near them that are friends with each other.

They're literally in lose-lose conditions of their own making.

And last season, I remember repeatedly saying that there were some good concepts and moments here and there, but by the last episode, anything that had been good had pretty much been ruined. Neo? Ruined. Ruby's season 9 journey? Ruined. The Curious Cat as a concept? Ruined. All the theories I had about how the Ever After could have tied back into the plot somehow? Completely untrue. The lessons I thought there was the slightest chance of the characters coming away with? Wiped out entirely. The somewhat interesting ramifications we could get from what had happened to Jaune? Removed. The possibility of changes to character design even? It came to nothing. I have no faith that the new season will be able to fix things especially because the writers don't seem to want to fix anything, or even pay that much attention to what they're writing, so even minor good things can easily stop mattering or turn terrible just like with the entirety of volume nine. I was full on invested in Ruby's journey, only for it to be essentially brushed aside with no real consequences and seemingly no impact for the characters.

If there's a new season of RWBY that eventually comes along - a very big if - I'll probably still watch it. But honestly at this point, I hope they just leave it unfinished or reboot completely. Because I'm sure that everything I'm coming up with as a 'where from here' concept that isn't even good because I don't think a good story can be salvaged after V9... Whatever I do come up with is going to be better than what we'd actually get, and I'm actually sure that's true most of us and even megastans.

I feel like I would rather have an unfinished badly made work that I can imagine might have at least some semblance of a halfway satisfying conclusion then wind up following this project to the end on a hope and a prayer despite knowing I'd wind up even more frustrated and disappointed, because at this point I know I'm just gonna be disappointed. I literally feel like the best thing the current writers attached to RWBY could do is let the RWBY fans imagine up their own ends.

[chaifootsteps]

other pointer for anons who come in saying 'could you even discuss with someone who disagrees with you'

someone being critical of the hellaverse shows is not a free pass to be rude, condescending or dismissive to that person. coming into someone's inbox with that kind of tone just means no one will want to speak about the show with someone like that

as hbomb wisely said while he was criticizing RWBY: 'If you have a point but you're an asshole about it, no one will want to listen to you.'

also, sometimes people who are critical of the show want the same thing fans want: a community of people to vibe with. not everyone who criticizes the show is interested in having a fan slide into their DMs to debate them and change their mind. it's kind of presumptuous to assume that's the case

for me the show is some of the worst writing I've ever seen. I doubt anyone's ability to change my mind. And while I don't understand the perspective of people who still like or love the show, I don't begrudge them that. honestly I wish I could still like the show, but I doubt it's even possible for it to win me back at this point. and I don't think I'm alone in that, going by the way the view counts keep dropping

for some of us, trying to like the show would mean ignoring too many things or using headcanons to patch up too many holes or problems. even asusming someone critical would be open to discuss/debate about it, it's again a little presumptuous to assume a fan could counter argue every point as if people who criticize the show haven't already considered different angles that could work and why they don't.

just getting into plot holes and inconsistencies in HB or HH alone this post would become twice as long - this attitude that critical viewers just want to hate the show and are being stubborn for some reason is so strange to me when most critical viewers just talk endlessly about how frustrating the wasted potential is and how much they wanted to like it or would like it if more care was put in

tl:dr but if it bothers fans of the show so much to see people criticize it they should avoid critical spaces for their own sake, rather than marching into someone's inbox to talk down to them or act like they aren't aware other people still like the show

Repeating this part because I feel it's so important, and something a lot of Viv stans either don't or refuse to understand, but it's really at the heart of all of this all.

Sometimes people who are critical of the show want the same thing fans want: a community of people to vibe with.

[greentrickster]

WIP game

Rules: You will be given a word. Share one sentence/excerpt from your wip(s) that start with each letter of that word.

@shadow-pixelle tagged me with ECHO, so congrats - have some 'Got a Light?' (my RWBY fic) snippets! And, to have some extra fun, since they're all from the same fic, I'll get one snippet from each of the first two books I've written this fic in and two from the current book (because it's the biggest), and you'll get the sentences in the order I wrote them... but not necessarily in the order they'll come in the fic, because I'm writing non-chronologically. ;D Enjoy!

E

"Easy for you to say," Jaune gives up on meditating (because he's weak) to glare at Roman, "You're probably just saying that because you had a stupid one, like- like bad luck or making your pockets bigger or something!"

...Branwen had flinched at the first suggestion. Interesting. Neo'll have to look into that. More importantly, however, Roman has frozen in place, dust crystal fallen to the ground beside him. He stares straight up into the sky unmoving for a good twenty seconds before he lets his arm fall across his eyes with a distraught groan.

"Dangit, that second one actually sounds like an amazing- that would have been so useful for shoplifting or, hells, just storing extra ammo without ruining the lines of my suit- dammit, now I'm sad, thanks a lot."

C

"Consider: would any of you say you are quite the same people now that you were at the beginning of the school year? How about ten years ago?" he smiles at the range of reactions this elicits. "To me, it is much the same, albeit on a far larger scale. It seems as though we each carry a certain amount of... ourselves, for lack of a better word, with us to each new life.

"For example, it may surprise you to know that, in regards to myself, while I have heard many times that I seem to have gained a certain level of maturity overnight when my memories and powers are unlocked, oddly little in my personality or mindset of my new life seem to change beyond that. I will confess, it inspires a certain amount of curiosity these days, whenever the end of a current life draws near, as to what new myself I will have become the next time my memories return."

H

"Hey, what about all the nice things you were gonna say to Pyrrha?!"

"They will be formatted as an extremely flattering eulogy!!!"

Qrow is drawn away from this amusing interaction by Neo, who has removed a glove and stolen a fistful of bacon with her bare hand, wiggling it enticingly at Qrow with a big smile.

"I feel like I'm being mocked," he states, examining it with each eye suspiciously.

"You're not," Torchwick says, finally calm again and theatrically wiping his eye, "She just likes watching birds eat. Used to sneak into kitchens at restaurants so she could get table scraps for it."

...eh, fair enough. Qrow obliges and daintily tugs a strip of bacon free with his beak, holding it with one claw to peck at. Neo beams.

O

"Oh, um- yes! He says... 'Thinking of mew.'"

Ruby glances up from skimming her texts to see Weiss staring blankly ahead.

"...he's a dork," she says, voice dazed, "He's an enormous dork."

"Weiss-" Uncle Qrow groans, only for Jaune to hold his hand up.

"Don't bother, Mr. Branwen, I've got this."

"Kid, it's Qrow."

Jaune ignores him, going to put a steadying hand on Weiss's shoulder. "Look, I'm sorry you have to find out this way, but the thing about guys is... we're all dorks. And Neptune is our king."

"...I see." Weiss nods, and Ruby goes back to her own texts, "Is it a bad sign that I still like him, even though he's flawed?"

"I mean, he didn't realize you wanted to keep seeing him after the dance until you cried at him for flirting with other girls," Nora comments, "You kinda already knew that he wasn't perfect."

"I suppose that's true... In that case, I'm going to respond in kind! Nora, I require your assistance!"

---

(Told you guys it's not as dire as my research subject list makes it sound!)

I'll be tagging @fullbattleregalia and @elektricangel, along with anyone else who wants to play - your word is LIFE (because my fic's about Roman coming back as a ghost and I'm funny).

[saltwukong]

I don’t understand the “Kdin is a victim” narrative, sure her experience at RT was absolutely vile but she’s also vocally racist and should have gotten fired for that a long time ago. The fact that she continues to employ a white savior narrative in her crusade against RT is gross. Should I feel bad that she accepted transphobia as a price to say the n word with the er? Nah, she’s a PoS that loved RT until they stopped valuing her labor. I have no sympathy towards anyone that is ever involved with RT, they accepted slurs being used against them in order to punch down others.

Do me a favor and do not darken my askbox with a dogshit take like this again. You need to step back and think about why you're having these reactions--because you're falling for a very obvious trap.

"Kdin is a victim" is not a narrative, it is a fact. No one--and I mean no one--deserves to be dehumanized on a daily basis and damn near bled out for their work like Kdin was, and then stripped of all recognition for it in the process.

Kdin's actions were reprehensible. But a) there is quite a difference between someone apologizing for vile actions taken in the past year, and someone apologizing for vile actions fifteen years prior--before RWBY even existed and before plenty of people watching it were able to walk. Fifteen years is more than half my age at this time. And b) broken clocks, as they say.

It is not a white savior narrative to insist that Rooster Teeth be held accountable for its horrible work environment and bad practices and refuse to let people forget it.

The facts of Kdin's racism coming about mere days after she blew the whistle was not a coincidence, it was a distraction tactic. I would wager she knew full well something like that would be leaked and used to discredit her the second she spoke up. Rooster Teeth rely on reactions like the ones you're having to divide and conquer--if the people who complain are bad people, then no one will take what they say seriously enough to pursue it further. This isn't rocket science, it's just a bunch of smoke and mirrors. The more villains there are, the harder it is to put energy into defeating them.

You can hold Kdin accountable for what she did, acknowledge that it was a long time ago and that she's changed, and support her in castigating Rooster Teeth for being a shitty company that has abused its workforce for longer than she's had a history with them, and you can acknowledge that the circumstances in which people come to work for Rooster Teeth are not signing a paper which says "free bigotry" and that most of them cannot just leave even if they want to. That's the ultimate point.

The people I'm pissed with aren't even bothering to circulate Kdin's prior racism as a valid reason to ignore her and continue sucking Rooster Teeth's dicks, although that would still piss me off. They want to make her out to be bitter and a toxic person, when that's not the case--she's rightfully angry and these people were never going to give her the time of day no matter who she was or what she had done.

You can't take a serious stand against anything if you're easily distracted and willing to turn on anyone who falls short. Accept that, and you can start to point your anger to the right places.

[abysskeeper]

Thing is a two year time skips means once again Oscar gets development off screen that we don’t get to see. The reason why others see him as not important is that exact thing, we don’t get to see him, not as much as everyone else.

“He’s not suppose to be the focus” is what I’ve seen fans say. Yeah okay but he still deserves at least some? And having a two year time skip just feel like a lazy way to develop Oscar without showing that development.

Sometimes I feel like that’s the reason why Oscar has little to no merch and why everyone else does. It’s cuz the writes don’t wanna be bothered with giving Oscar some screen time that’s not then overshadowed with everyone else and don’t see him important.

For me a two year time skip would only further that.

Hi Nonny! Let me start by saying...trust me, I totally get it. I'm the gal who condemned herself to (albeit very slowly) writing fanfic for the rest of the show's run because I heard "Her name...is Jinn" and went "Hm, let's examine how we got here" and never looked back. I've written my fair share of "missing canon" scenes because hey, if the writers won't do it for my boy, and fans want to ignore him, then it's free real estate.

I'll shove the rest under a read more because I got a little long winded.

I also want to clarify that just because I may or may not want to see that dynamic of years having passed (I do), I absolutely do not expect it to happen. Me wanting years before they return is basically my writer brain going "Imagine the angst!" and taking off with an idea. Especially the emotional Rosegarden potential on Oscar's end.

Logistically though, years doesn't make sense and I know it. We know Salem is launching her endgame and holding her off for that long seems improbable. It isn't impossible but...it is unlikely.

And it really doesn't make sense for the meta either. All of volume 9 was about Ruby coming to terms with the fact she is enough and she did her best, and a lot of the preceding questioning that led to her doubting herself was regarding the message sent to the rest of the world in volume 8. That end shot with RWBY+J finally reaching Vacuo and seeing all of the kingdoms there defending it is meant to show a direct result of that message and be a real world affirmation that Ruby is enough. She did enough, the message got out, the world responded to her. Having it be years since their fall into the Ever After negates that point, because suddenly the other kingdoms are there defending Vacuo because they have to with the war against Salem inevitably ramping up during that time. I don't think the writers are going for that.

That said however, I do hope (and believe) it will be a few months. Maybe upwards of 6 if they're feeling ballsy. Anything less than a month, to me, would sort of have the inverse effect of what you're rightly pointing out here. Volumes 7 and 8 were just as much a show at Ruby's character regression as they were for Ren, Nora, and Oscar's character progressions. Ren and Nora didn't need the Ever After because they came to those realizations about themselves on their own terms through volume 7, and then definitely into volume 8. They weren't complete developments of course, they were steps of progress, but I don't expect Ruby or Jaune to be at their end stages either.

And, I don't know, maybe I misread it, but Oscar had major plot and character movement in volume 8, and it just screamed at me that it was all about his immense potential and capability to step in as a leader himself. Not as Oz (Salem's denial of him being Oz is direct proof of that) but as Oscar himself (choosing to play the game and turn some of Salem's people; choosing to trust Hazel; and most importantly, not giving up on those plans as Oz advised him to do). I think bringing RWBY+J (especially team leaders Ruby and Jaune, the two he has looked up to and relied on the most) back too soon to Vacuo would rob him of that opportunity to be in a role he is clearly meant to take and that it would do a disservice to the developments he did make in volume 8.

And that would be...the first time actually...where I don't think I would mind not seeing all of that development happen on screen for Oscar? In part because we already saw the starting stages of it in volume 8, and in part because there is something to be said about exploring character development after it's happened already. If done well (and I do continue to have faith in CRWBY, a rare sentiment I know), it can be a lot of fun. I don't need to see the moment where Oscar decides to step up and help people when all evidence and his prior actions point to him making that decision without hesitation. What I do want to see is what comes after it, how he handles taking on that mantle and how he handles all of the struggles that come with it (not to mention mourning losing 5 of his friends in one go...based on a plan he helped create); and you need time for all that to set in. Maybe years is too long...but months is not.

And this is all without considering the Merge because I do not believe the Merge will happen (even though I wrote fic for that too), and even if it does...it won't happen the way FNDM anticipates (the way FNDM anticipates goes directly against what we saw Jinn portray). Overall though, I don't really bother myself with what fans say...mostly because I like to retain my sanity. I know we've had issues with it in the past (the fact we didn't get a single scene in v6 after he went "missing" still haunts me), but volumes 7-8 really seemed to be setting up and showing that the writers view Oscar as a main character. His brief "appearance" in volume 9, if you will, I think only further solidified that point. So I'm not overly concerned with CRWBY not giving him screen time, I'm just hoping that screen time is an accurate representation and continuation of what we saw in volume 8.

Tl;dr I don't disagree with you, Nonny, and I don't actually think we're getting a time skip of years (but it does make writer brain go brrrr). That said, having no time pass at all I think would be just as big of a disservice to team Vacuo, and especially to Oscar. There's a middle there that I'm putting faith in CRWBY threading the needle of.

And, oh yeah. Give us more Oscar merch. I do just...wholeheartedly agree there.

[aspoonofsugar]

Alright, it's the same anon from last time. So, I'm gonna try to address the things in order. I don't really mess with the whole "deserve" or "earn" redemption things because it can get messy if the word is misused, in a sense. Basically, I wasn't trying to argue if Cinder deserved redemption or not.I don’t know a lot about Save the Cat moments, so I decided to search it up and do a little research. From what I can tell, those moments are usually meant for the protags. (Heads up, very large ask)

Cinder obviously started out as an antag during the first few volumes, but it seems like Cinder changed to a villain protag at the start of Volume 6. Right, I’m trying to say that Cinder did have a Save the Cat moment at the start of Volume 6, when she became a villain protag.

Framed as an adult is something I also don’t know about so I read a lot of Hamliet and your posts about Cinder. Cinder is mentor coded to to the Mers, but if we are really saying that mentorships are kind coded to adults, couldn’t I argue that Watts, Raven, and Salem in a sense are her mentors? The only mentorship that is somewhat healthy is Raven’s and that’s because Cinder is given the opportunity to rebel. Great post about this on OneWomanCitadel's blog about this.

Furthermore, Hazel and Tyrian actually seem to be more coded as parental figures torwards Emerald and Mercury. In Emerald’s case, she needed a figure to actually care for her and show her to not be so dependent on Cinder. And Tyrian took more of a unhealthy/abusive relationship torwards Mercury, given all the scenes with him. That’s why I believe Cinder is more child coded than adult coded. (I have an insane crack theory about Cinder’s age but that’s too far lol)

It’s possible that one could argue Cinder being child coded is why the CEM fell apart (I have seperate theories about CEM but I’m keeping that to myself for now.) but to me, it’s mainly because they all project their problems on each other. Even though it seems like everyone cares about everyone in CEM (Maybe I’m reaching a bit here, but you can ignore this if you don’t agree.) it wouldn’t have worked out because of their problems that need to be healed.

And considering the point of the story…I don’t really know what you mean by that? Could you clarify? I’m gonna try to interpret what you mean by that but feel free to correct me. I’d say Vol. 8 was the halfway point to the end of RWBY. I’m of the mind that Cinder will defect at the end of the Vacuo Arc and probably start her redemption arc after she obtains the Crown of Choice and saved by Ruby and Jaune on top of Beacon Tower. Midnight allusions, stuck in Midnight, I think you get this gist.

Hi!

I am gonna break your ask in two because, if I don’t, it is gonna be difficult to answer properly :)

Ok, so this is a long answer to this post about my theory that Cinder will die in the end.

Before replying, let me clarify again that... it is just a theory. Not only that, but it is also a very future oriented one. So it might not come true and I might very well discard it at the end of next volume depending on what happens. Moreover, if Cinder survives in a way that I find satisfying, I will be happy about it. If she survives in a way that imo cheapens the story I will be pissed and the same can be said if she dies in a meaningless and hollow way.

Once this is established, let me try to answer some of your doubts.

THE POINT WE ARE IN THE STORY

I meant 2 things.

1) Imo we are 1/2 - 3/4 through the story. I think we are gonna have volume 9, then 3 volumes set in Vacuo and maybe 1 more volume set in Vale. Still, considering the current pace of the series and how many things they manage to usually cover in a single volume we might just have vol 10-11 set in Vacuo and volume 12 set in Vale.

In short, considering the number of characters and how many subplots we have, I do not think there is gonna be much time for a long redemption arc for Cinder. I think her arc is more or less going to go this way:

-she hits rock bottom in the Vacuo arc (Em + Merc confronts her + she has to face the truth about Salem and realizes what her Grimm arm is truly about)

-she is saved towards the end by Ruby (maybe Jaune)

-her being saved by her enemies + Em and Merc’s influence + the truth about Salem lead to her redemptive act in the finale

-her redemption results in her death foiling both Penny and Pyrrha

Basically, the later the redemption starts in the story, the harsher it is going to be. It is easier to have a character work on their inner change while there are still many things going on because they still have many challenges and many chances to struggle. If a character only starts to work toward a 180 degree change toward the end of the story, then the stakes are bound to be higher. Especially if it is such a central character like Cinder.

2) Cinder herself is not close to redemption in her personal arc and by the end of volume 8 she has actively refused to change. She is challenged throughout all Atlas and Mistral, but in the end she chooses to cut off all her bonds and to go back to her previous persona instead of honestly accepting her vulnerability. Not only that, but this choice has very negative consequences for others. She betrays her comrades and kills Penny aka a character very dear to both the viewers and to the protagonists. Her actions are bound to bring bad consequences for her too in the future.

In short, we are probably 3/4 in the story and Cinder has just reinforced all her negative choices and traits. She is far away from even starting to positively change. She is bound to hit rock bottom as a consequence of this. Does it mean she has to die? No. I actually think she will be saved from her spiral. Though, then she will have to show she has changed. The most likely option is for her to make a selfless choice and, given the way RWBY treats death, Cinder killing both Penny and Pyrrha and the symbolic nature of the Maidens (see the meta above), I think a redemptive death is probable.

SAVING CATS AND KICKING DOGS

Save the Cat is just another way to call a Pet the Dog moment.

In short, it is just a moment where you humanize a villain to make them more likable. It is basically a redeeming trait the character has. That said, it is not that a Save the Cat moment = redemption or that none means no redemption.

Anyway, RWBY has been given many of its villains Save the Cat moments. Like, Hazel, Emerald and Mercury all have those.

Let’s see Em and Merc’s.

1)

Emerald: It’s almost sad.

This is Em’s. She clearly shows regret and guilt over what is happening at Beacon. This moment makes the viewers understand Emerald is not without conscience and that she is not inherently cruel. She shows doubt over her actions hence she has potential for changing.

2)

Mercury: Emerald get up, we need to go... Emerald!

Rather than a single moment, Merc’s whole relationship with Em is his redeeming trait. So, Em is basically Merc’s Morality Pet. He clearly adores her and it is in this specific relationship that lies potential for change.

Well, Cinder completely lacks such a moment/element. She is highly sympathetic and human, but she never displays guilt over hurting others and does not selflessly care for another person. Obviously her feelings for Em and Merc are more complex than what she likes to think. Still, she does not treat them well or selflessly. She abuses and mistreats them. She leaves them behind and gives their presence in her life as a given.

Moreover, Cinder is given several moments when she displays gratuitous cruelty. Even more than necessary for her personal objectives.

For example, she does not really need to kill Pyrrha. She has already won, Pyrrha’s aura is broken and she can’t move. She could have simply gone away, but she chooses to completely burn her down.

In the Battle of Heaven she impales Weiss not because she thinks she is a threath to her, but to hurt Jaune.

In volume 6 she kills a woman whose only fault was to offer her help.

In volume 8, not only does she deeply hurt the protagonists and kills Penny, but she also betrays her comrades.

These actions can be called Kick the Dog and they are meant to cement the villanious nature of a character.

In short, general viewers are gonna be more open and forgive more easily a character that shows positive traits, rather than one who routinely displays cruelty to everyone else. Cinder is currently more in the second category, rather than the first.

CHILDREN AND ADULTS

Child-coding is about how you frame a character. It has not necessarily to do with age, but more to do about a character role in a story.

For example, Shigaraki Tomura in BNHA is a young adult, but he is framed as a child who needs to grow. He has an evil mentor who abuses him. He has child-like understanding of many things and his story parallels the MC who is a teenagers. He also has no mentee, but peers he bonds with.

In coming of age stories, usually child-coded characters have more chances of surviving and of growing positively. This is because they are more open to change, like kids.

That said, this is not always the case because there are actually different kinds of child-coding. This means you can code a character as a child for different reasons.

Some examples.

1) You initially code a character as a child, but as the story goes on the character grows and he loses said coding.

See, this is what happens with Snk main cast. They start as kids, but as the story goes on they become adults who have to protect kids. So, they are not more kids by the end. This means they must grow up in the end and the protagonist, who refuses to do so, dies in the end as a consequence. Him being initially child coded does not save him.

2) Penny is child-coded, but she still dies. This happens because her story is both a coming of age story and a tragedy. So, by the end she grows, but also dies. It is powerful, but very sad.

3) You child-code an adult to actually show they are refusing to grow/can’t grow and this is framed as a negative thing.

This third case is partially what is happening with Cinder.

To be more specific, Cinder is coded as an adult when she is introduced. This coding is consistent when it comes to her relationship with Em and Merc (and with the protagonists too... like... Cinder is not RWBY’s generation). However, as the story goes on, the framing changes and we discover she is deep down Salem’s bratty teenage daughter.

This is used to illustrate the cycle of abuse. She is abused by Salem and abuses Emerald and Mercury in return.

So, Cinder is not a child in the story in the same way that RWBY, JNR, Penny, Pyrrha, Oscar, Emerald and Mercury are. She is an adult with child-like traits and because of these child-like traits she struggles to improve her situation.

Also, a note about Cinder’s relationship with Emerald and Mercury. There is no doubt that she is their authority figure. Like, they are not peers or siblings. Cinder specifically frames herself as their guardian. This is how the story presents their relationship as well.

Roman: Oh, look! She sent the kids again! This is turning out just like the divorce!

Here, the joke is that Cinder is the mother to Roman’s father. Obviously, Roman is not the father, but the point of the line is that he sees himself and Cinder as adults and Em and Merc as kids.

Raven uses a similar language:

Raven: Two children you’ve tricked into following you.

Again, Raven does not refer to Cinder as a child. She talks to her as you would to an equal, while she treats Mercury and Em as kids.

The hierarchy of the trio is shown also by their body language at Beacon:

During their meetings, Merc and Em are constantly shown on the floor, while Cinder sits on the bed. This is not by chance. It is a figurative way to show they are not equals.

In general, Cinder herself treats them as kids when she is in a good mood:

Mercury: You should be able to take her no problem.

Cinder: It's not about overpowering the enemy. It's about taking away what power they have. And we will, in time.

Mercury: I hate waiting.

Cinder: Don't worry, Mercury. We have a fun weekend ahead of us.

And as minions when she is angry:

Cinder: Both of you, get out. I’ll let you know when you’re needed next.

This is not a relationship among peers or even siblings.

Mercury and Emerald themselves have clearly tied their respective parental issues to Cinder:

Emerald: I just... Cinder was the only family I ever had. She cared about me, taught me things... But without her here, I don't know if what we're doing--

Mercury: Wake up, already...Cinder doesn't care about you! She doesn't care about either of us!

Emerald: You don't know what you're talking about!

Mercury: You're in denial. And if you're gonna start having a crisis of identity or some crap... keep me out of it.

Mercury: I'm sorry you didn't have a mommy that loved you, but I had a father who hated me!

Emerald mentions care and learning things. They are concepts linked to a parent/mentor. Mercury specifically says Cinder cares about neither of them, compares Emerald’s relationship with Cinder to a mother-daughter one and then brings out his father.

If right now, it seems that the lines in this hiearachy are not as solid as before, it is simply because Em and Merc, like the protagonists are growing. RWBY is a story where kids inspire adults, so you have Ruby inspiring Qrow and Weiss inspiring Winter. Em and Merc will probably do the same for Cinder. This does not change the role Cinder has had in their life and does not turn her into a child.

Even the example of Watts, Hazel and Tyrian all foiling a member of CEM actually shows that the framing around Em and Merc and the one around Cinder are different.

Hazel and Tyrian, as you said, are framed as parental figures to EM. Watts is not framed as a parental figure, but as Cinder’s colleague that calls her out. They are equals. Cinder is not submissive to Watts, like Merc is to Tyrian and does not depend on him, like Em with Hazel.

In short, Cinder is framed as a child only when it comes to Salem, but this is like saying that Qrow must be read as a child because Ozpin is his mentor. It does not really hold up. What is true, though, is that both Qrow and Cinder (and Winter) are adults/mentors with childish traits rooted in their childhood issues and that they will face them/overcome them thanks to the kids they once mentored.

Anyway, this last point is kind of a tangent, but I love CEM’s relationship and I think it is essential to grasp the familial nature of it to understand their characters. Em and Merc are literally Cinder’s child selves. They are the found family that she needs, but because she is still stuck in her childhood she is unable to truly take care of them and help them as she could. This is tragic because clearly she could heal through healing them, but she can’t see it and spirals more and more.

In short, these are just better explanations of what child-coding and save the cat mean. That said, it is not that lacking any of them means certain death for the character. Similarly, having them does not necessarily mean a character will survive. However, in coming of ages stories, like RWBY is, it is common to give Save the Cats moments to a villain you wanna redeem/save and to have child-coded characters survive, while some (not all) adult characters die.

I will answer your other answers later on.

[itsclydebitches]

Godddddd I'm so upset that I dislike yen this much, doing main quests in skellige and Freyas ppl were doing stuff and she again disrespected other cultures with Geraly being against, "I may be inhumanly beautiful" I know she's meant to be confident but wowww. She's not confident and worried for Ciri she just comes off arrogant and selfish and vain. Like, fuck.

The ultimate mood, anon. My Witcher fandom life would be so much easier if I enjoyed Yen ... but I just do not lol. Remember how I mentioned that things were going to get even worse than her stealing and using a potentially dangerous artifact? Yeeeaah. She also resurrects Ciri's friend to torture him for information, all while destroying another sacred garden to get the power to do it! It's not even a "She's so evil and I love it 😏" situation for me because the game tries so hard to convince us that she's still The Best. Geralt's sexy soulmate, Ciri's adoring mother, the baddest bitch around who gets things done and does it with an effortless confidence... all while ignoring how horrific her actions and attitude are. Oh sure, other characters speak ill of her at times, but considering how much Geralt is written to adore her, no matter what you choose, that's all undermined. I love morally gray/evil characters, but I've never enjoyed them when the text refuses to appropriately acknowledge that side of them. Nothing is more frustrating to me than a story that frames disliking a character as the unambiguously wrong thing to do, especially when the text is piling up reasons to dislike them and, as a result, ignoring or shrugging them off their actions as not that bad. Yen is a rather extreme example of that for me. Despite her attitude, her choices, and other characters outright going, "Why do you like her?" the story as a whole works under the assumption that it's correct to like her anyway because Geralt loves her. And he loves her for... reasons.

They do meet before the wish, but only just. Major "The Last Wish" spoilers in this paragraph, so feel free to skip. Basically, Geralt and Dandelion run into trouble with a djinn, he goes to Yen for help since she's a sorceress (first time meeting her), he instantly falls for her because she's gorgeous and such (there's an elf there who is also madly in love with Yen. Men just... fall for her, instinctually), she heals Dandelion, Geralt agrees to pay her, but Yen has already decided on the payment she wants. She takes control of Geralt's mind and forces him to attack the town to seek revenge on those who have insulted her, resulting in him waking up in prison awaiting execution for "his" crimes. Meanwhile, Yen has gone after the djinn for herself because power/trying to regain her ability to have a kid. Geralt escapes, finds her failing to master the djinn (an attempt which btw has endangered the whole town) and despite what she's done to him, Geralt tries to get Yen to escape with him. She refuses, set on capturing the djinn even though it's obvious she can't. So as a last resort he uses the final wish to bind their fates together, saving Yen from the djinn in the process. Aaaaaand then they have sex.

So yeah, their rocky relationship is one of the main reasons why I can't enjoy Yen. For some their tumultuous history is evidence of realism, for me it's evidence that they're not actually very compatible and they're only together because a) that's the fantasy trope: protagonist men get together with the hot sorceress and b) because the magic is literally ensuring that they can't escape one another. I mean, canonically their fates are tied together by magic and canonically they spend about 20 years swinging between passionate love and fearsome fights... but there's supposedly no connection between these two things? No chance at all that they keep coming together because magic is drawing them rather than because they actually want/should be together? I wrote a meta a while back about the short story where they meet, which includes a present day scene where Geralt is criticized by another character — Nenneke — for running out on Yen. Thing is, he tries to explain that he left because she was "too possessive" and this is... flat out ignored. By both Nenneke and the fandom. There's a strong trend of ignoring Geralt's words in favor of a pro-Yen interpretation of events. He says he left because she was too possessive and she treated him like ____ — he's not allowed to finish the sentence and say what she treated him like because Nenneke interrupts him, saying she doesn't care about his version of events. Major yikes imo! She turns a claim of being possessive into Geralt not being man enough to stick around. The fandom likewise turns this into a case of Geralt getting cold feet and running out because he's a bastard who hates commitment. Likewise, Nenneke and the fandom claim Geralt is trying to get Yen money as a way of appeasing his guilt for leaving, he claims he's doing it simply because he still cares for her — even if he doesn't want to be with her — and knows she needs it. Geralt's words are frequently dismissed, in the same way others characters' opinions of Yen are dismissed. Any mark against her is treated as either a lie, or a convoluted claim that they don't really know her... never mind that an understanding of why she may act this way doesn't excuse the behavior itself. (Plus, the whole "Yen had a horrible upbringing, so of course she struggles being kind" perspective always fell flat to me when so many, including witchers, had horrendous upbringings too. The whole point is this world is a mess and most everyone suffers). It's supposedly true love, yet if someone came up to me and went, "I magically tied my fate to this woman to keep her from getting herself killed and we've spent the last couple decades having what many would term a rocky relationship, to put it kindly. I left once because she was too controlling. She once cheated on me. I likewise hooked up with others during our frequent breakups. A mutual friend used magic to get me to have sex with her — also while my lover and I were broken up — and though I view it as a dumb decision I'm happy to forgive her for, my lover is ready to commit murder because again: possessive. A lot of the time we're only a family because of our daughter. I once thought she'd horrifically betrayed us both. She didn't, but it says something that I was so ready to believe it, huh? Hmm? Permanently separated? Of course not! I love her. We're destined to be together after all :)" I'd be like, "Uh... you sure about that, dude?"

Not that Geralt doesn't make his fair share of mistakes in the relationship — he absolutely does — but I don't think it helps his case that he's immature in other ways and, frankly, that he's a very strong, badass witcher. It's easy to turn the hints we get about their relationship into a simplistic "emotionally naive man can't give the poor woman the commitment she wants" situation. Given Geralt's status as the badass fighter of the tale, it's likewise easy to dismiss his admissions of her being "possessive" and his general discomfort. He's the man. He's the witcher. If he's making any claims about how Yen isn't treating him well, they must be excuses, or exaggerations, because real men, especially physically powerful men, would do something about that — a something that's not sneaking out in the middle of the night. A lot of people read Geralt leaving as the ultimate proof that he's an immature bastard who doesn't deserve her. I read him leaving and think, "What were you trying to get away from? What was going on that made you think you could only leave by sneaking out without a word?" To me, that doesn't read as someone who felt safe, comfortable, and respected enough to do anything but slip away and try to wash his hands of things. And I'm not just pulling this "Geralt is at least somewhat afraid of Yen and isn't comfortable establishing boundaries with her" reading out of my ass. When Yen wants Geralt to kill the golden dragon for her and he refuses, saying he doesn't care anymore, his thoughts are:

He expected the worst: a cascade of flames, flashes of lightning, blows raining down on his face, insults and curses. There was nothing. He saw, with astonishment, only the subtle trembling of her lips. Yennefer turned around slowly. Geralt regretted his words.

And everyone is like, "See! Yen has improved so much. Geralt nearly made her cry, but she's supposed to be the bad guy here?" Meanwhile, I'm going, "Uh... anyone want to unpack why he expects fire, lightning, insults, curses, and blows to his face for telling her no? Why he's astonished that she wouldn't use her magic against him? Anyone think that Yen refraining from attacking Geralt when he refuses to murder on her command is a pretty low bar? No? Just me?"

Geralt and Yen's relationship makes me uncomfortable and a great deal of that discomfort derives from how much of the Witcher fandom shrugs off the fictional warning signs. I mean, I post primarily about RWBY. We watched a man in that show try to sneak away with his kids when his villainous wife planned to use them for a eugenics plan... and the fandom still blames him for that, refusing to admit that he was in an abusive relationship. Because that doesn't happen to men, right? I'm not saying it's the same for Geralt and Yen, simply because they are written to be soulmates. An abusive relationship was, quite obviously, never the authorial intent. However, I am saying that the a "This isn't a healthy relationship" reading is there, it exists as an interpretation, and both the story and fandom's tendency to dismiss it is something that hasn't helped me enjoy Yen's status as an otherwise well written, complex character. Their equality supposedly stems in part because they're both so flawed, yet each time I see a list of Geralt's supposedly equal faults they're... lacking imo. "Geralt bound himself to Yen without her consent." Yeah, to save her from dying from the djinn she was trying to enslave, after she refused to leave, while her actions threatened a whole town. "Geralt ran off without a word." Mmm hmm, anyone care about why? And my personal favorite is a scene you may not have gotten to yet (or may not get depending on your choices), but suffice to say, Yen is supposedly justified in physically attacking Geralt if he dares to challenge her in any way. That's the main takeaway across the fandom: If Yen is pissed off, you must have done something to deserve it which, in the relationship deliberately written to be "stormy," is something that sets all the alarm bells in my head off. Honestly, it kinda makes my skin crawl to go, "Geralt didn't deserve that" and get responses back of, "Yeah he did because he [insert basic human action here]." The Witcher world is hard and cruel, absolutely, but that doesn't mean I personally enjoy seeing an equally messed up relationship presented as something that's enviable in its flaws. "That's actually true love because the magically bound man who often expresses discomfort with his lover, written by a male author with a very iffy perspective on women, says it's true love." Crazy theory here, but... maybe it's not?

Idk, lots of rambling on my end tonight! For me, Geralt/Yen reads as something rather tragic which, in a canon that unironically upholds the relationship, and in a Yen-adoring fandom, doesn't make enjoying her character any easier. I keep coming back to Witcher 3, the comics, the show, even the books going, "Maybe I'll like her this time?" but nope, still trying lol.