#evil xena can get it

[pwaise-hestia]

[smallhatlogan]

Every show airing when I was a kid needed to have that “cartoonish misandrist learns that it’s not okay to hate men even as the men around her are THE WORST. Maybe she even gets to be enemies to lovers with a lovable misogynist” episode

[batfamiliar]

gabrielle is sam winchester-coded

[badass-queer-couples-battle]

⚔️⚔️ Sword gays showdown, grand finale ⚔️

*Camilla fanart by @friendamedes, used with permission

Propaganda:

For Camilla:

she prefers dual-wielding two short blades but can fight with pretty much anything. she's ambidextrous she's autistic she's even sex-repulsed ace. she sighs longingly when reunited with her weapons. she's from planet academia and dresses like an off-duty librarian. literally one of the most iconic moments of the entire series is when she gets challenged to a duel and absolutely wipes the floor with her opponent even though she doesn't even like rapiers that much. 'swords don't lie.' 

OK I’m sure you’re getting just about every character from The Locked Tomb but Cam is my favorite. She's a nerd AND a jock. She is in this deeply intense and loving and unhealthily codependent soulbond partnership with her best friend second cousin and prince. She is smart and deadpan snarky and fights like a grease fire and I have never been able to get that line out of my head.

For Gideon:

she's incredibly good w/ her two hander and less good with her rapier but she's still pretty good!! she is a horny lesbian who's taste in women seems to exclusively be "girls who have tried or are going to try to kill her". she's a redhead. i love her

Gideon’s a HUGE Butch lesbian and literally always wanted to use a broad sword. Specifically a broad sword. She said fuck rapiers. Uhhh literally dies to save the girl she cares for and the sword she uses then becomes like an altar for said girl. Gideon Nav Supremacy <3

oh she is the most badass swordswoman lesbian in media. she’s her gf’s cavalier, defends her in battle, she’s incredibly butch and buff

C'mon shes THE sword lesbian like... canonically 

Loves her broadsword more than anything on her home planet and practices whenever she can. Spoiler it’s possessed by her mom. Gave everything so her best enemy could eat her soul and become the new saint. The character of all time child of two separate threesomes, child of the god emperor, she’s dead, she’s butch, she’s a dork, she’s doomed by the narrative. She’s my favorite.

girlie is literally the swordswoman supreme. she’s the cavalier primary to her necromancer. she has a fuckoff huge longsword. she gets absorbed into another person SPECIFICALLY to swordfight for them. in a gay way too.

While everyone else was developing common sense, she studied the blade. This dyke's main weapon and true love is the long sword, but she's also passable with a rapier. The sword is, in her own estimation, pretty much all she's good for. That and her smoking hot bod and terribly charming sense of humor. 

"While we were developing common sense, she studied the blade." (Direct quote from the book). She's the most useless lesbian to ever exist, and she's obsessed with an absolute wet cat of a woman. Learned longsword mostly on her own and is such a genius with the sword she learned rapier in a few months (by personal experience, it's really really hard)

Most badass broadsword wielding lesbian easily slaying bone monsters and evil space wasps

The cavalier to her necromancer. very gay. in a complicated codependant lovehate relationship with the only other person her age she knew growing up.

For Xena:

It is HER! The OG woman with a blade! 

Her show was so iconic that any lesbian over the age of 30 knows her IMMEDIATELY because this show probably helped her have her awakening. Fandom foremothers and fathers rise up and get your gal a title.

An all around badass, bisexual woman, comfortable with many different bladed weapons. Her show was so much better than Hercules people forget his exists.

Xena is one of the OGs: once a baddie who turned good, she's a warrior who uses swords, daggers, and her trusty chakram to defeat evil and defend the innocent, while traveling with her kickass girlfriend Gabrielle. 

She has many skills

[marley-manson]

man nothing in the world hits like a novel length xena fic all about her violence

the one i'm re-reading rn is like xena descending back into really horrific brutality because of her intense guilt over her evil past - like she's projecting onto a new enemy and lashing out extra hard, somewhat ironically, because she sees her past in this particular warlord army - and like, where else can you find a female character who gets this treatment from fandom?

the violence is so perfectly detailed to highlight how fucked up it is, gabrielle is horrified and trying and failing to pull her back, and it's all xena. she has all the agency in the world here, it's all about violence she's committing of her own free will, not forced by circumstances or survival or a mysterious organization, not born into the killer lifestyle, but just driven by sadism and lust for power, and now sadism and guilt

and while this particular fic goes extra hard on the theme of violence, like my favourite thing about the xena fandom is that it crops up to some degree in fic all the time, because it's such a basic aspect of the show. the last fic i read also coincidentally delved into xena's evil actions in her past and her guilt and her present day violence and how it impacts her relationship with gabrielle. conqueror fic where xena never turned to heroism is an entire popular subgenre. plotty action fic where xena grins while decapitating people abounds.

and on top of that 90% the fic is gay

absolute paradise honestly

[girl4music]

I’ve had enough of people referring to ‘Xena: Warrior Princess’ as queerbaiting and claiming that the creators of the show were committing it so I’ve gone on an extensive Google search and pulled up this AftenEllen article written all the way back in 2008 and I’m transcribing the full thing right here because if people don’t want to voluntarily do their research when they make their insulting claims then I’ll provide the source for them and force them to read it because I refuse to allow them to disrespect the creators/cast/crew like this in making their completely off-base assumptions about a TV show that I’ve been watching since I was 5 years old.

This is an interview with the creators/cast/crew of ‘Xena: Warrior Princess’ where they express their opinion on what they think would happen with the lesbian subtext between Xena and Gabrielle if the show was made for today. It’s why many of us don’t want a remake or reboot or revival of it of any kind.

Do not ever come for ‘Xena: Warrior Princess’ and the incredible people that either made the show or were involved in the making of it around me. You have absolutely no chance in winning the argument!

[Viewers never had to look too hard to find the lesbian subtext in Xena: Warrior Princess, but that’s still what it was: subtext. And while lesbian fans in the 1990s might not have had any choice but to settle for that, would things be different if the show were being made – or remade – today? When I attended the Xena convention in Burbank, Calif., at the end of January, I asked the show’s creators, producers, writers and stars if the world is ready for an openly lesbian relationship between Xena and Gabrielle.

“To me it was main text,” said Renee O’Connor, who played Gabrielle, in an exclusive interview with AfterEllen.com. “And even if it was subtext, it was very clear that we were together. They are so in love with each other, they love each other so dearly; there’s no way you can say that’s not true. Anyone can see that from watching the show.”

I asked her if she thought that relationship could be openly acknowledged if the series were being made today. “I don’t know,” O’Connor answered. “Maybe there’s a little bit more hint of acceptance today. Maybe, maybe not. You can only put it up and see what would happen. I guess we could do anything, just get it out there and see how it affects people.”

In a lot of ways, Xena flew under the radar during the ’90s. Viewers who didn’t perceive (or didn’t like) the lesbian subtext could see it simply as a story about heroic friends righting wrongs and battling villians. If the show were being produced in today’s post—L Word television landscape, it’s hard to believe that audiences would be quite as oblivious.

But O’Connor doesn’t think that a more overt presentation of Xena and Gabrielle’s relationship would have changed the moral heart of the series. That’s because she sees those two things – the love between Xena and Gabrielle and the series’ focus on the fight against evil – as inextricably combined.

“If we were just starting Xena right now, I know what the relationship of the two characters is,” O’Connor said. “So even though we wouldn’t blatantly talk about all the issues involved, because I don’t think that’s what the show is about, it’s still about defeating oppressors and wanting to do the right thing for the world. And that comes down to these people and how they love each other.”

Lucy Lawless, who played Xena, isn’t sure how acknowledging a romantic relationship between the two women would affect the show’s reception if it were being made today, but it could have changed the way audiences perceived it in the past.

“There might have been more general discussion about whether the characters were lesbian or not out in the mainstream,” Lawless said. “In the 1990s, when this was all new, people like Ellen [DeGeneres] and k.d. lang and all these people who are out were blazing a trail. And you might hope that it’d be done long ago. But in a lot of the world, it’s still incredibly painful to come out, even today.”

Then she laughed. “But let’s have a go. Let’s do it. Why don’t we make a Xena movie? Just tell a bloody good story and let the fires and torpedoes be damned.”

A Xena movie doesn’t seem any more likely today than it did a year ago, but I asked Lawless if she thought the sexual relationship between Xena and Gabrielle might be brought more into the forefront if a movie were made.

“I think that’s a good question for Rob,” she said, referring to Rob Tapert, the series’ co-creator and her husband. “I know he’s been thinking about this for a long time, mulling it over in the back of his mind. He’s got a great feeling of where the world’s at and what he can make that’s progressive and gutsy and still have it be financially successful.”

Backstage at the convention, Tapert considered the possibility of a more openly queer Xena and Gabrielle. “It’s a tricky question,” he said, “because if Xena were being made today, well, there’s two different Xenas. There is the one [in which] people could read between the lines, and that played to one audience.

“Then there’s one that played to kids, or that played to 9—17-year-olds. And they didn’t understand the subtext, nor did they get it. So like the finest of Disney films, that plays to all audiences; that was a balance we tried to find. Making it today, I don’t know what would happen.”

He called series co-creator, producer and writer R.J. Stewart over to ask his opinion. “Could there be more commitment to the subtext?” Stewart said. “Well, I think if it was a cable show, absolutely. But if it was the same kind of broader market, I think you have to be more inclusive. But yes, absolutely, I think that a cable version of it could work that way.”

What if a film were made today, based on the series? That would be a different proposition, Stewart said. “When you make a movie you always try to stay pretty close to the original in feeling.” Then he laughed. “Now, if you could just get Oxygen to order some episodes …”

However much fans might wish for another season of their favorite show, not even out lesbian Xena producer and writer Liz Friedman (pictured left, and currently a producer on Fox’s House) thinks it would come back as an ancient Greek action-adventure version of The L Word.

“As much as I would love to see it – and I’m speaking as somebody who watches The L Word obsessively – there was something really wonderful and romantic about the relationship between Xena and Gabrielle,” she told AfterEllen.com. “And I think it’s actually easier to have romance without sex. You don’t then get into issues about ‘Will this relationship last?’ There was never – well, until they started killing each other’s children – the question of a breakup.”

I asked if she thought that times had changed enough that a series could now be made with two legendary female heroes shown unambiguously as romantic partners.

“If you look at the lesbian relationships that are on TV now, it’s either niche-market stuff like The L Word, or it’s Cashmere Mafia that gets you all excited because there’s a kiss in the pilot, and then by Episode 3 she’s hitting on boys again,” Friedman said. “Certainly in a single-lead action show we’re not ready for an openly gay heroine yet. Well, I think we’re ready for it. I don’t think the networks are going to let us do it.”

Then she laughed. “Look, obviously I’m biased. I loved the show the way it was, so it’s like, don’t talk about messing with my Xena. It worked pretty well, thanks very much. … If I were doing the Xena movie I would try to get there to be a kiss, but there are plenty of ways that you can do that without changing what the relationship is.”

That raises the question of just how much would have to change in order to bring the subtext into the forefront.

It’s undeniable that there are some scenes – and even whole episodes – where it’s hard to make sense of what happens without believing that Xena and Gabrielle are at least a little bit more than friends. Most of the time, these moments occur in the more humorous episodes, but as series writer Steven Sears told AfterEllen.com, “We didn’t cross the line completely but … these are two women who live together, travel together, had domestic duties together, die for each other, fought for each other, continually say how much they loved each other, but no. They’re not in a loving relationship.”

Steven Sears talking with Christie Keith

He shook his head. “Excuse me?”

Writer Katherine Fugate (currently executive producer of Army Wives) sees it much the same way. She is the author of “When Fates Collide,” widely considered one of the most subtext-friendly – and romantic – episodes in the entire series.

Katherine Fugate

Set in an alternate universe where Xena’s old enemy, Julius Caesar, has imprisoned the Fates and used their loom to undo the events that led up to his assassination, “When Fates Collide” is about the inevitability of both destiny and love.

In Caesar’s new reality, Xena is his empress. A famous Greek playwright named Gabrielle comes to present her latest work to the Romans, and in the greatest romantic tradition, she and Xena are struck with what can only be called love at first sight.

They gaze at each other across crowded rooms. Xena casts tortured glances at Gabrielle when she is called away by her husband. They stare longingly at each other from their balconies in the moonlight. Xena gives her life to save Gabrielle, and Gabrielle risks destroying the entire world to save Xena’s.

Caesar calls Gabrielle Xena’s “girlfriend,” and his violent jealousy would make absolutely no sense if Xena and Gabrielle weren’t being depicted as lovers.

And, in fact, that’s just how they were being depicted. Fugate appeared at this year’s convention and spoke with AfterEllen.com backstage. “The paradigm in my episode was that they find each other in any lifetime and they were meant to be, no matter what body they were in or what gender they were,” she said. “These souls were entwined somehow. And that, to me, almost has more a spiritual connotation than a sexual one, although I personally believe that they were lovers and had a committed relationship.”

She added: “I think we touched people, and it was multifaceted with all the spiritual components as well as the love. But the love was so intense, and ‘We’ll find each other in any lifetime,’ I think, is profound. I don’t know many shows that say that, period, heterosexual or homosexual.”

Given that, it’s surprising there wasn’t a kiss in the episode, something that had been played with both teasingly and tenderly (if briefly) in earlier episodes.

“There was a kiss written in which was more definitive, and it’s in the script that they sell here [at the convention],” said Fugate. “So my intention was actually to push that envelope, and I was really supported by Rob and R.J. and everyone. But ultimately they pulled it, because they wanted to maintain it for the finale.”

The finale is, of course, a sore spot for Xena fans; mention of it during R.J. Stewart’s appearance triggered the only boos of the convention weekend. He took them in stride, defending his decision to kill Xena at the series’ end, but there’s no question it took the shine off the climactic kiss the two women shared in “A Friend in Need.”

Fugate, who announced at the convention that Renee O’Connor will play a lesbian on Army Wives later this year, is optimistic about the possibility that a show about two female heroes who are openly lovers could be made today.

“This may sound like a writer’s answer, but I think anything works if it’s well-written,” she said. “If you have respect for the subject and if you can find a universal theme, anything will work.”

She said she feels that doing that would be easier today than it was in the ’90s. “We probably couldn’t push the envelope as much then as we could now,” she said.

“The subtext issue gets asked a lot; I think everyone here has been asked about it. And I think that’s because it obviously touches people, and we had an opportunity to dignify these relationships. And everyone felt it did that. I think both the lead actors have come forward and said this is how they view their characters and how they played them. We did what we could.”

If they did what they could in the ’90s, what could they do now? Sears said he’s thought a lot about that question, and he’s not optimistic. “As far as the marketing mind is concerned and the studios,” he explained, “if a movie came out they would play with it, they would toy with it, they would try to appeal to the male heterosexual audience, because in their minds that’s who’s attracted to these kinds of films, these action films. They don’t want to turn those people off.”

Then Sears pointed out the dark side of main text. “The horrible thing that might be done is that they would then say, let’s go completely commercial with this thing,” he said. “They would have the characters kiss, have the characters imply that they had a sexual encounter, and then have them realize, well, that was just an experiment. Now let’s go back to men. That’s the worst possible thing that could happen. But it’s also one of the most possible things that marketing could do.”

In light of those fears, a dozen intimate moments in the hot tub, soulful glances and fireside nights spent in each other’s arms don’t seem so bad. And neither do Renee O’Connor’s final thoughts on how Xena might best be made today.

“I always wanted people to look at it as unconditional love,” she said, “especially people from the conservative side who didn’t want to see anything like that. Just watch the show, and see what you want to see. I still think that today that would be the best way to put the series on.”]

SOURCE: https://afterellen.com/bringing-out-the-warrior-princess/

[twelverriver]

devi is an insane episode and by insane i mean it drives me mad while watching it. gabrielle as a goddess. the way she LOOKS. xena and gabrielle behave like a married couple but also the whole xena is doubting gabrielle's newfound power thing. can i just mention gabrielle's outfits again. also i'm obsessed with the dynamic of eli and xena. xena saying fuck it i'll do the exorcism to get back gabrielle. gabrielle's whole "Am I sizzling, now?! Am I burning?! Am I still evil incarnate, Xena?" monologue?? GABRIELLE LICKING HER FACE???

[beigetiger]

Trying to write about Skulduggery and Valkyrie in an AU. It is turning out very long, so in the meantime I’m gonna talk about what the Sanctuary is up to.

This au pulls the very stereotypical “most of civilization has collapsed”, so Roarhaven is incredibly crowded full of people mortal and sorcerer alike, and the city is shielded at certain times of the day to protect from threats (most notably Mevolent/Serafina or the Faceless Ones).

Like, when I say packed, I mean packed. Pretty much the whole city is stacked on top of each other and some people are seeing if they can connect the buildings together to form one massive structure, and even that isn’t enough to hold all the people now penned up in this city. Splashes of magic are becoming even more widespread, especially among mortals, to the point that some of the police have started to crack down on it. There are also people who can’t afford places to stay who all sleep together under one big tarp to conserve body heat, it is a mess.

China got aged down to about her forties in this au because of the magic blast, which really led to her being annoyed that magical explosions kept tampering with her age. She’s no longer the principal of Corrival and now she lives on the edge of town running a business as a Signum Linguist (since Signum Linguists are in very high demand in Roarhaven). She doesn’t create Splashes, but she does make weapons and/or enhancements for soldiers, particularly mortal ones (which I will get into later).

Corrival Academy is technically no longer functional but many of the teachers do still teach, and they find places and times to do it so that students can show up in groups and learn. Teachers like Fletcher and Militsa are partially helping the Sanctuary keep organized and on-task and partially trying to organize and actual school for kids since the last one fell apart. Also Militsa broke up with Valkyrie again on account of Val being an evil god (AGAIN), and now she and Fletcher are disaster besties who’re trying to keep it together. The two of them somehow managed to keep Xena alive until her death at an old doggy age.

Ghastly is still running things over at the Sanctuary, and he is having a VERY rough go of it. On top of mortals finding out about magic and chaos ensuing, he also has to deal with the fact that he now knows that Skulduggery is Lord Vile (because of what Cadaver told him) and that Valkyrie defended him for years (and has now turned into a slightly deranged god). He, Tanith, and Temper have been working together to create different military units with different purposes now that they have more demographics of people to keep track of, protect, and make use of. In short, Ghastly is even more burnt out than he was before the apocalypse.

The mortals have also been making themselves useful, usually working as soldiers for the Sanctuary. I talked about technomages a bit earlier, and I am talking about them now. Lots of the mortals now living in Roarhaven have been going out of their way to equip magical tools (usually weapons) to help them keep up with the sorcerers. This has led to them basically forming into military units working for the Sanctuary and has greatly increased their firepower, making them slightly less appealing to attack.

On top of Temper, Tanith, and Ghastly at the top of the Sanctuary, Dexter Vex also has a little group of his own who technically don’t work for the Sanctuary, but stay in Roarhaven and are more than willing to do tasks alongside them. Aside from Dexter, this team consists of Saracen (who was revived in the same way as Anton), Kierre, Aurora, Frightening, Donegan, and Gracious. Kierre showed back up when the Sanctuary (aided by China’s sigils) figured out a way to fix her boyfriend, and Aurora and Frightening found each other in America shortly after the general apocalypse (North America did not take it well) and then hopped over to Ireland to find Dexter. The Monsters Hunters did something similar to this except that they were in England at the time, and Saracen basically respawned in Ireland.

One of the people who is not present at the Sanctuary (or in Roarhaven at all) is Anton Shudder. He’s off working for Valkyrie for reasons that I plan on explaining in a later post, but he (and Valkyrie) are missed dearly by their friends.

Unlike most of the other groups in this au, Roarhaven isn’t actually aggressive and doesn’t go out of their way to pick fights with other gangs, instead working to act as a safe space for refugees from the war. They’re also completely stationary, which is why they have the part-time shield to protect them from attacks. Valkyrie is willing to spend resources to protect them, but they don’t entirely trust her and so she tends to give them space. They do get visits from her occasionally though, and she’s described as feeling like a harbinger of doom.

Much words, sorry to spam you all with au stuff

[performativezippers]

As a non writer I’m curious about something. Do you decide to write a specific genre and then work an idea into the genre or do you write the idea/story you want and then look to decide which genre it is? I guess I’m curious if the story or genre comes first?

Great question!

For fic: I write whatever the fuck I want and don't worry about it! I mostly write things that end happily because that's what makes me happy, but as long as I tag things appropriately (AU, platonic, IN SPACE, whatever), I don't let any of that bother me. Fic is so fun because it can so easily slide between genres. And most fic is romance AND something else; romance and crime/mystery, romance and scifi, romance and fantasy, or simply contemporary romance. There's a big thing in the publishing world right now where people are like "omg, ROMANTASY, aka fantasy with a primary romance, HOW THRILLING" and I'm like...dude...this not new! Welcome! Have you heard of a lil fandom by the name of XENA WARRIOR PRINCESS??? Do not cite the Deep Magic to me Witch. I was there when it was written.

For novels that you're trying to get published: I had to learn what book genres were! I queried my first novel—which is when you send it out to agents like a job application, with a cover letter and writing sample, and hope they want to represent you, aka help you sell it—being like THIS HAS NO GENRE and it turns out the genre was romcom with speculative elements. Aka low key romantasy, lol. Anyway, that book was Revelations and it didn't sell, I think primarily because the genre conventions were not met and it was confusing. It worked great as a fic, but required several big overhauls and ground-up rewrites to get it to place where it meets genre expectations and is maybe sell-able.

Usually the idea that comes to me is clear what genre it is, now that I know what they are. I primarily write romcoms, some speculative and some not, and so the ideas that percolate for me most are romcoms. However, my agent said recently a new idea I have might be more on the line of romcom and women's fiction* which surprised me. But that's fine! It doesn't change the book I write; it might change how we talk about it in the pitch process and, if it gets sold, how the marketing team frames it. But that won't change the story structure from a drafting perspective, I don't think.

Some genres are very close to each other (upmarket vs. book club fiction vs. women's fiction), while others are quite distinct (if you want it set in space, that's probably going to be sci fi). I think the main questions are:

(a) Setting: Is it on a space ship? (sci-fi) Are there dragons? (fantasy) Can people use magic? (fantasy or speculative) Is it in our world, in our time? (contemporary) In our world but in 1250? (historical)

(b) Character motivations (what do they NEED): To repopulate their planet? Save their mother from the evil magician? Fall in love? Save her bookstore from capitalism?

(c) Obstacle (why don't they have it ALREADY): If the obstacle is primarily internal, like she can't fall in love because she hates herself, then we're looking at a straight romance or literary fiction. If the obstacle is world-building related, like the spaceship is broken or the magician is too powerful, that's going to be firmly sci-fi or fantasy or whatever.

There should always be at least 2 obstacles: one internal and one external, but you should know which one is paramount, or which would win in an epic battle. And that will help you figure out if you're writing, say, romance with speculative elements (soulmates) or fantasy with a strong romantic element (fourth wing, i think, i haven't read it because it seems bad). Whichever you list first is your primary genre, aka which section of the bookstore it'll be in. Are you shelving this in fantasy (fourth wing) or romance (Revelations) or "fiction," and then the rest gets more specific from there.

*also, just like, FUCK the name "women's fiction." Men's fiction is called "fiction."

[ivyinforests]

I’m thinking about an absolutely epic Xena/Legends of Tomorrow crossover and it’s so cool. Believe me. But it’s mostly got me thinking about how Sara and Xena have such similar arcs (did horrible things after ‘just surviving’ went too far, lost a lot getting themselves back, dead sibling, resurrection (not a spoiler as both die constantly), bisexual, strong themes of love being the most important thing to rely on, REALLY good at combat, was temporarily blinded, fun combo of evil and awesome exes, moved from side character/love interest to lead of a different show, silly episodes interspersed with heartbreaking questions about morality, redemption, and whether living a good life is something they can ever hope for, sabotaging relationships to spare the other person, that one tragic ex-gf who they still have a lot of regrets about, etc) and I really do have predictable taste in shows.

[sniperct]

with xena being from the 90s is there anything specificically dubious or of the time that people should know of ahead of time before going in? ie the similar vein to warning people of tng test of honor and other drek in 90s trek?

hope you dont mind the ask, youre just one of the few people I see around still chatting about xena

some of it is YMMV. the entire show plays fast and loose with all kinds of mythology and magic from not just Greece/Rome but as far away as brittania, norway, china and egypt. (all the gods of each culture seem to exist simultaneously and occasionally interact/chat with each other.) But generally plotlines are one of the following:

Xena's evil past has consequences

Warlord/God acting up and needs to be defeated

A god is being mischievous and needs to be outwitted (aphrodite, cupid, some others are common here)

something silly/over the top/campy

Gabrielle is trying to figure out her life's direction

Xena's Personal Beef with Rome and Caesar in Particular

sometimes multiple or all of the above (see Fish Femmes and Gems)

Up to season 5 on my current rewatch, I'd say The Way is still probably the most culturally insensitive (they actually had to record a PSA on hinduism over it). The two leading up to that didn't seem to get any backlash that I could tell when reading about it. (its a three part story that's super important to the plotline and character development of the show and hammers home the soulmate angle, especially the second one). But I'm no gonna speak for that culture or anything, just what I read on the wiki. But the third part I know enough to feel uncomfortable with it). Ripped from the wiki:

The episode was pulled from syndication after protests from Hindu groups. It was finally allowed to be reshown with the addition of a public service announcement at the very end by Lucy, Renée, as well as a spokesman for the Hindu community explaining that the producers took liberties with the Hindu religion.

In general, jokes and silliness overall tend to land well, especially if you enjoy camp.

While it can be clumsy in some respects overall it handles gender and race pretty well, there's a variety of women of various roles. They had someone in drag at a fashion show episode who (who late IRL came out as trans) that was handled really well. The Amazons are very much sexy but also deep and spiritual.

Casting generally appears to be race blind with regard to heroic roles, evil roles and the more complicated grey area 'seeking redemption' roles and mostly seems to try to cast appropriately on a cultural basis. Like warlord casting seemed to be like 'are you a big guy? you're hired!'

Nothing ever seemed to approach test of honor's level of bad IMO, except maybe The Way.

(I'd argue there's even some meta commentary with regard to centaurs and centaur culture and how its treated)

Its got some of your standard 'guy likes girl, does stupid shit for girl' type stuff but he gets character growth and ultimately he's family. He's the little brother, 'only we can bully him but god help you if you bully him' type of dynamic. Someone hurts our proto-himbo joxer and xena and gabrielle go for the throat. Then ten minutes later are roasting him.

The only episode I really skip is the gross one involving lice and a skin rash(but at least they let the lady heroes be gross, quite frequently in fact). Maybe also skipping the married ...with children parody episode too. The Way could maybe get by with a summary but I wanted to watch it again specifically to see where it fell on the character part. Pretty important to jumpstarting Gabrielle's peace arc.

[dadrielle]

lolololol fine, twist my arm why don't you, here are my Gabrielle and Imogen thoughts.

Ok, so, one thing I like to turn around in my mind and talk a lot about is how Gabrielle’s moral confidence was shaken after the Rift (for non-Xena-fan followers, this was a series of events that put Xena and Gabrielle at odds and culminated in Gabrielle’s demon-spawn daughter killing Xena’s son, and Gabrielle having to kill her daughter like, twice (neither one stuck)(lol)). She went from having a very strong concept of her own internal moral framework to being unsure and casting about for something she could adhere to in order to regain some sense of knowing The Right Thing To Do. She became even more vulnerable to culty people like Najara and Aiden and Eli, because she was desperately seeking an external scaffolding to hang her morals on because she no longer trusted herself. This lead directly into her misguided pacifism arc, and then into her decision to ultimately put aside that search for her own path in order to follow Xena’s full warrior path, which is really the great tragedy of her character.

Imogen does not reach that point through the same means, of course, but she likewise struggles quite a bit with trusting her own moral sense. She is constantly asking others whether people or actions are good or bad, and second guessing her own actions and worth and motivations. She desperately wants the answers to be easy because they never have been and she is exhausted. She thinks she might be tainted; how can she trust herself to make the right calls? And I think that makes her more likely to both want to believe in authority figures and to be particularly let down by them not being all they’re cracked up to be. Had the Vanguard found her before Laudna, it’s very possible they would have been able to recruit her against her better instincts. I don’t think she would be a true believer and would ultimately rebel against the human cost of the project but without the Hells and Laudna in particular she too would be very much vulnerable to cults.

In both cases, they do actually have strong beliefs and a core desire to help rather than hurt people. But they don’t trust themselves to do it correctly and that gets them in trouble. In both cases, too, the strength of their love is also seeded in this weakness. Gabrielle refused to believe that Hope could be intrinsically evil. Imogen wants so badly for her mother’s actions to come from a place of care. But that lack of self-trust means that when they lean too far into their ability to understand the motives of and have compassion for others, it becomes paralytic instead of balancing.

I hope that Imogen’s arc takes her on a different path than Gabrielle’s; as I said, I think Gabrielle’s ultimate decision to model herself on Xena more fully is a very tragic one. I don’t think she ever quite manages to regain full trust in herself. However, since Imogen’s arc started from a place of self doubt and since that lack of self-worth is the core problem in the Hells generally, I am hopeful that she will develop in the opposite way and ultimately gain a firmer trust in her own ability to do the right thing as best she can.

[olderthannetfic]

TV does indeed provide mental support for millions! So who's hosting the Xena watchalong?

Or Farscape, or The Sentinel, or Highlander, or Buffy if we can get past Whedon's crap I guess, or whatever existing closed canons have fandoms that would love more people and potentially a lot of people who would love these shows if only there were time to watch them for the first time and people to watch with

Or AtLA/Korra or Steven Universe or Owl House, idk, idc, point is canon is already closed so the writers' strike cannot impact its future, and there will be people who have loved the show for ages to discuss it in a non-spoilery manner with new viewers

--

I suspect the crybabies saying that strikes are bad only want new episodes of their current favorite shows, not some random other thing.

And the show you should all obviously watch is Beyond Evil. ;)

[faithandbuffy]

I feel like an aspect of gabrielle that isn’t talked about enough is that she can be an absolute dumbass to the highest levels. She’s trying to learn to flip like xena and xena’s like “this took me years to learn, pls be careful” and gabrielle says “slow learner huh?“ and then IMMEDIATELY breaks her ankle. She tries to use a bowl like the chakram and knocks herself out. She gets attacked by a rabbit. She gets seduced by pretty much any religion, cult or obvious evil person they ever meet. She’s so silly <3

[marley-manson]

001 | Xena

Thank you! 💖

Favorite character:

Xena!! Everything I could possibly want in a female character, and a fandom that largely enjoys it rather than downplaying it.

I loooove that the writers went into the show (Xena, not her first appearance on Hercules probs) essentially writing her as a male archetype almost no concessions to the fact that she's played by Lucy Lawless other than pronouns and some het. She's cold and stoic - it's not until the first season finale that she even really displays a raw emotion other than mid-fight glee, including when her own mother draws a sword on her, and when she has to kill a man she loves to some extent. She's the strongest, toughest, most competent person in any room at all times, and everyone knows it and defers to her, absolutely including men. Early on there are a few scenes where she's hit on and punches dudes, but that actually goes away pretty quick as she just tends to command a certain sense of respect. It's an ideal female power fantasy - not to survive patriarchal violence, but to live without even having to spare a thought for it.

She's complex and nuanced and the narrative is very interested in exploring her as a three dimensional character.

She's formerly evil and still revels in violence, and it's amazing. She's often on the verge of going too dark again and needing to be pulled back from the edge, and she snaps in a few episodes including one where she attempts to murder Gabrielle, pre-meditated and all. She's framed like a horror movie monster in a few episodes, something I always love to see in a protagonist.

And on the flip side, she's fun! She steadily loosens up the more time she spends with Gabrielle doing good, and she can be very playful at times, and it's awesome to see in contrast to the first season.

I'll never be over her and idt there'll ever be another female character who can truly compare. Xena is a product of the tone of the show, and that tone is dead now.

Least Favorite character:

Borias, mainly for his appearance in The Debt as the only man who has ever had physical power over Xena - while her legs were broken - and for clitblocking Lao Ma.

5 Favorite ships (canon or non-canon):

Xena/Gabrielle (and Mel/Janice who counts under this umbrella) Gabrielle/Aphrodite Xena/Ares Xena/Lao Ma Xena/Callisto

Character I find most attractive:

Gabrielle. I mean just look at her abs

Character I would marry:

Gabrielle 💖

Character I would be best friends with:

Gabrielle lmao.

a random thought:

Xena has the best clipshows of any show I've ever seen. Almost always worth watching for the absolutely delightful framing devices.

An unpopular opinion:

I get shallow entertainment out of the scenes where Xena seduces men in the later seasons lol. Like firstly, I love that the show really pointedly toes a line and she never actually sleeps with them past like season 2, because she's in a relationship with Gabrielle. I also love that they show Gabrielle being annoyed or jealous if she gets into it. The show is blatantly playing both sides and trying to appeal to het viewers as well, but very deliberate in never contradicting X/G and I can appreciate that.

But also I love how dominant Xena almost always is, both in bed and in how she just interacts with men, and how it's always framed as something she wants/how she behaves by default rather than something she does for the dudes, who are generally more ambivalent about her topping. Like, ultimately it's a fantasy for subby male viewers, but it doesn't feel like it so it's enjoyable to me.

This is popular with the het fans lol, but they're the minority so it still counts.

my canon OTP:

Xena/Gabrielle, and yes it absolutely counts as canon for the purposes of this question.

Non-canon OTP:

Xena/Ares

most badass character:

Do I have to say it after my ode to her up there?

pairing I am not a fan of:

Gabrielle/Joxer, Gabrielle/Virgil, Gabrielle/any dude. Xena/Borias in terms of canon relationships.

character I feel the writers screwed up (in one way or another):

Najara!!!! I absolutely adored her in her first episode, she's an amazing foil to Xena. She would've been a perfect recurring villain after Callisto, with her moral ambiguity, her deliberate choice to kill vs Xena's bloodlust, her more grandiose ideals vs Xena's more do good when its in front of you philosophy, etc.

Then her second episode just eviscerates her character and turns her into a caricature of a ~crazy girl~ and it's awful. The actress probably wasn't available for a recurring role, but like, she could've been written off more respectfully, or never given a second episode at all to assassinate her character. Boo.

favourite friendship:

Gabrielle and Aphrodite, I think. They're very cute together. Though shout out to Gabrielle and Ephiny, since I did find it quite touching to see her again in season 6.

character I want to adopt or be adopted by:

None, I don't really think of characters this way.

ask meme

[girl4music]

It’s interesting to think of Callisto not just as Xena’s arch-nemesis and main foil but also as Gabrielle’s mirror image and parallel because she can’t be much older than Gabrielle is. I mean Xena destroyed Callisto’s village when she was only a child. True, Xena was a teenager herself when she went on her 10 year long period of darkness. But she is obviously older by a good margin of years. I would say maybe 10 years between her and Gabrielle and 7 between her and Callisto. Say Xena was 16 when she began her dark period. That would make Gabrielle 6 and Callisto 9.

Which I think definitely checks out by the time we get to Xena’s army pillaging and destroying Cirra. Xena would be 20. Callisto would be 13 and Gabrielle 10.

So it’s interesting to think of Callisto as what Gabrielle could have been if Xena’s army had attacked Poteidaia instead of Cirra and murdered her family instead of Callisto’s. As I said - Gabrielle wasn’t special. There was nothing in her that would have made any real difference if those things had happened to her instead. Nothing but the love between her and Xena.

Which obviously she wouldn’t have had if circumstances had just played out that way.

If Gabrielle was Callisto and Callisto was Gabrielle.

And I like that Callisto tries to make Gabrielle see this when Gabrielle asks her if she felt anything when Xena confessed her crimes in ‘A Necessary Evil’ to a random village at her request in exchange for her assistance in stopping and defeating Velasca. She basically says: “Think about if this was you, would you be different?”

And Gabrielle wouldn’t have an answer for her…

Not yet. You see, to Callisto… Gabrielle fell in love with the villain. She wouldn’t possibly understand that. But Gabrielle wouldn’t possibly understand how Xena couldn’t be the hero. And it’s one hell of a dichotomy.

CALLISTO: “My goodness, are you trying to figure me out? I’m flattered.”

GABRIELLE: “Answer me. Or are you afraid?”

CALLISTO: “Let’s play a game, shall we?”

GABRIELLE: “All right.”

The way Callisto HITS when interpreting Xena and Gabrielle as a love story is so god damn DELICIOUS.

“You fell in love with the destroyer of my soul. Why would you think I would ever give mercy to you? But you’re no different to me. Circumstances saved you.

Instead of Xena destroying your life, she rescued your life. As my hatred for her grew, your love for her grew.

You could never understand me, little girl.”

But of course we know she does… eventually.

But she still looks at Xena as the hero. And that will always be the delicious striking difference with this.

In Callisto’s eyes - Xena is the villain.

In Gabrielle’s eyes - the hero.

What makes the difference? Honestly… Nothing but the circumstances because Gabrielle is no different.

Gabrielle fell in love. Callisto fell in hate.

Xena refused to let Gabrielle praise her - celebrate her. Nor did she ever ask for Callisto’s forgiveness. Ever.

She told her she was sorry but she didn’t force a narrative that she knew was absolutely impossible no matter how much Gabrielle believed in her goodness.

This show is not about heroes vs villains.

It’s about actions vs consequences.

The circumstances are the only difference between. And storytelling like that will always last because it will always be relevant and resonant for real people.

And once again - I have to highly praise the writers for refusing to let the protagonists off with plot armor. For refusing to sugarcoat the events and situations that happen in this show just because they’re the heroines and they’re a representation of women loving women. Because it’s also a representation of women hating women and that deserved to be just as focused on and just as much respected as the love story there.

Callisto was never undermined and I am so grateful. And great storytellers never have to sacrifice anyway. They can simultaneously tell a beautiful story of love, forgiveness and devotion and tell a compelling story of revenge, hatred and burden. That is great writing because it’s always honest, realistic and authentic.

And Callisto is emphasised xBILLION in a WLW love story because she becomes the main conflict in it.

Then everything that happens suddenly is MORE because the romance in this show doesn’t ruin it.

It only ever makes it more worth watching because the writers knew exactly what they were doing with it because not a single character arc ever suffers for it.

👏👏👏