#every version of this character and title are just different variants on saying Thor

[c-is-for-circinate]

MCU Rewatch #3: THOR (2011)

General Impressions: I'm allowed to like this one for reasons unrelated to objective quality! I'm also allowed to dislike it for same!

Thor does a good job at a bunch of things. It manages to really succinctly outline what Asgard's deal is, who the major players are, and how this complete fantasy world works, while remaining in the context of a two-hour movie that mostly doesn't even take place there. It's very funny in places! It's not at all a deep movie, but it's entertaining and fantastical and that's fun. This is -- and was! -- the perfect movie to watch in a cold movie theater during a hot summer, munching popcorn and explosions, and that's a perfectly valid thing to be.

Anyway, for me the best parts and the worst parts of this movie were the same, ie Loki. We'll get there -- he was by far the most complex part of this really quite simple film, and that has its plusses and minuses!

All in all, there's nothing wrong with a simple film, and for the most part that's what I'll say about Thor: it was a simple film with good fight scenes, and nothing much was wrong with it.

OH. Except the sound balancing/editing. That was absolutely criminal and whoever was in charge of sound design for this movie should be shot, not just for their crimes here but for the many years of emulation to come.

The Hero: Like the movie, simple but endearing, with a genuine heart.

Thor is definitely not as compelling as Tony Stark, but he's likeable, and his emotional arc is definitely both present and the most genuine part of this movie. In a lot of ways, what we see here is that Thor is a big kid. He makes decisions without thinking about consequences. He does not bother to try and read a room. He's arrogant in a way that reflects his position, but he's also arrogant in a way that suggests he hasn't considered his position -- having his powers, hammer, and home taken away from him is a shock because he's never thought about the fact that he had them in the first place. Getting sent to Earth is more or less a boy being grounded by his father to try and teach him responsibility. Thor is almost a coming-of-age movie, except that it never quite feels like Thor actually gets there -- he's better, by the end, but not quite a man standing on his own two feet just yet. Breaking the Bifrost is a sacrifice on his part, not a decision carrying the weight of the responsibilities Thor will have as an adult and future king.

That said, I really enjoyed the sincerity of his confusion and grief over being told Odin was dead. He's a hurt little kid, asking his brother if please, can I go home. The scene with Selvig in the bar is one of the best in the movie, with Thor admitting vulnerability and doubt and regret over how he left things with his father. (And again, telling that all of these are feelings about his dad, with a man old enough to be a dad/granddad, and that's the energy Thor needs to lean on right now -- Selvig, not Jane, gets Thor's emotional breakthrough moments, because Thor is a tall handsome child who hasn't grown past needing a parent.)

Also, I vaguely remember some fan back-and-forth about whether Thor is kind of dumb, or very smart but trolling, or very smart and just ignorant of local customs. Upon rewatch, Thor may or may not be smart, but he doesn't particularly care. He does shit on Earth because he doesn't care enough to pay attention to whether it's appropriate. Nobody else is smashing coffee mugs, and the diner is totally lacking in raucous celebratory energy, but Thor wants to be raucous and celebrate, so he's going to do so whether it's appropriate or not. Doesn't matter that he's been driven around in cars his whole time on Earth, he doesn't spend thirty seconds to think about what might be appropriate travel, he's going to make assumptions. This is more of that self-centered teenager logic, where he doesn't bother to try and think about the existence of points of view outside his own.

The Villain: If I end up having Loki Feels by the end of this marathon I'm going to stab something. I refuse.

Anyway, Loki was the most complex part of this really quite simple film, which has good and bad sides! I can and will be objective about how well/poorly that complexity was rendered, but sitting here thirteen years after this movie came out, I can admit it: I really fucking hate the Evil Adopted Kid trope. It's a shitty trope and I don't like it, for personal reasons, and that is always going to color my experience with Loki in any movie where he shows up

That aside, Loki's actual motivations and plans in this movie were baffling and kind of a mess. The problem is that Loki is a complex character, with a lot of doubts, full of love and jealousy and insecurity and pride, but we very rarely get to see him from the inside. It feels like the movie was really invested in surprising people with the end twist of Loki killing Laufey in front of Odin, revealing that actually he was on Asgard's side all along! and does not hate his family! So therefore, for the movie before that, we had to be witness to everyone else's doubts about him and only seeing his actions from the outside, to keep that a surprise. I can see how it'd be effective on a first watch, when the suspense of 'what is this guy going to do and what side is he on?' can pull a viewer through the movie. On a rewatch, knowing what Loki's ultimate deal is, it just feels confusing and inconsistent. What exactly was your plan for when your dad woke up, Loki? Did you actually intend to leave Thor on Earth forever? Were you or were you not actually hoping to kill your brother? What the fuck was your endgame here?

I think there is probably a very interesting story here where Loki's plans seem muddled because he's muddled, awash with emotions and doubts and the inner conflict between love of his brother, twisting jealousy, the objective truth that Thor would be a terrible king, and the fact that Loki, like Thor, is also still very much a grown-up kid. He's making dumb decisions by the seat of his pants and his motivations are contradictory and messy. That tracks, with what we see, but we don't get to see that because this movie is too invested in its twist and its simplicity. Allowing Loki the time and space to be this complicated would steal the entire show from his simpler, genuine brother, and because the movie itself wanted to be simple and straightforward, there wasn't room to hold the layers of its complicated villain. No wonder the Tumblr girlies went wild for him.

The Ensemble: Weak romantic lead with an A+ comic sidekick, hobbled by needing to run two casts at once.

I think this is where we really see Thor suffer from the problem of having to establish two casts at the same time. The New Mexico side of the equation, Jane and Selvig and Darcy, simply doesn't get time for character development. We know next to nothing about Jane, except that she cares about her research and once dated a doctor. Why this research? How did she get into it? How long has she been in New Mexico? What university does she even work for??? It's true that we don't get a lot of details about, say, Pepper's backstory, but it doesn't matter because we understand from the very beginning how she fits into her life and also Tony's life. Jane is a brief three-day whirlwind in Thor's existence, and that's not enough time for him or us to understand who she is or why we should love her. It feels like the movie went through the motions of having a Lady Love Interest, and it doesn't work out great.

Darcy and Selvig actually fare better, simply because there's less need for them to be more than they are. All we know about Darcy is that she's a polisci major who's working a summer internship way outside of her field, but we don't need to know more -- she's there to be fucking hilarious and indeed she is. Selvig is there to help facilitate Jane's choices and Thor's emotional development, and he does his job well.

The Asgardians have a similar problem. Thor's four friends are basically interchangeable (Sif's only notable distinction being that she's a girl). Thor's mom...shows up? We get the impression that there's more going on with Odin than we've seen, but I wonder if some of that is just me remembering Ragnarok -- either way, given that Odin is literally in a coma for 3/4 of this movie, it doesn't mean much. Heimdall probably has more characterization than anyone else in Asgard other than Loki, and that is...not a lot.

It's a lot of just not very much, across the board.

The Franchise: We're already seeing the formula start to get built and tested in the moviemaking labs.

It's fascinating watching Thor on screen directly after two back-to-back movies of Tony Stark, because Thor has some of Tony's same growth arc with none of his fascinating complexity. On the surface they've got the same vague sketched outline: careless, self-involved privileged prettyboy must learn to think outside himself and care for others to become a hero. Thor takes that plotline in a very different direction, which means the movie doesn't feel same-y, but a more cynical viewer might wish to speculate about what boardroom or producer's office suggested that the writing team follow that.

I think Thor actually does better about wasting time trying to set up the future of the franchise. We don't spend a ton of time on Coulson and Hawkeye here -- if we watched this movie with no idea who they were or that they were here to set up anything at all, they'd function fine as Generic Government People (with an inexplicable thing for archery). I think the place where the setting-up hits worst, actually, might be with Loki: he needs to be complex and sympathetic enough to be interesting as the main villain of Avengers, but we can't resolve anything about him before that. (Not sure how far they'd planned the plot of Avengers at this point in the production run, but I wouldn't be surprised if they'd already called him as their bad guy.)

Thinking about the big thematic MCU premise of a superhero world without secret identities -- the choice of Thor as our next hero in the franchise, somebody who neither has nor needed a secret identity to begin with, is clever there. They're not going back on the freedom from overworked secret identity bullshit that they've promised, but they're also not stuck making a second movie about the lack of them, which would just end up looking like a retread of IM2. The secrets we do find here are all kept by SHIELD, which is clearly trying to keep superhero stuff in, and just as clearly is not managing it. (Loki also has a secret identity, with his discovery of his Jotunn heritage...hmm, much to think about there for the future.)

We pretty much lose all themes around the military-industrial complex here, and the movie is probably the better for it, considering what a hash IM2 made of the subject.

VERDICT: A breezy, light 6/10

Thor is in every respect a perfectly fine movie. It's simple, it's straightforward, it manages to do a bunch of things and establish a brand new fantasy setting without actually putting much depth into any of them.

I suspect that, as I get further on in this franchise, 'perfectly fine and no great flaws' is going to be the verdict on a lot of these movies, and I'm going to start dropping my number rating lower and lower every time something shows up that's simply fine. For now, with the context of only IM1 and 2, 'does light summer adventure flick competently with some sincerity and doesn't fuck it up' feels like an improvement over IM2's messiness, so that's where I'm rating it.

Except for the sound design. Anyone who thinks their battle sequences need sound effects roughly 800% of a standard dialogue scene should be forced to watch their own movies with the sound on a pair of unremovable headphones set to a flat however-loud-it-needs-to-be-to-hear-people-talking. Perhaps, after the deafness ensues, they will change fucking careers.

[technoturian]

I just binged Loki with one episode to go and I have a few probably controversial opinions:

- Sylvie isn’t Loki enough. Or like, at all. If they weren’t saying “She’s a Loki” every ten seconds and trying to tell us she’s “the same” in spite of looking, acting, speaking and living a different way than Loki did/does in every conceivable manner, I would never have gotten that she was supposed to be a Loki variant. I don’t get her. I don’t mind her as a character but since I’m watching this for Loki and they’ve shoe-horned in a love story I kind of resent her for being there.

- I don’t feel like Loki has been Loki since the second episode or something. He met Sylvie and then they rushed not just this hamfisted romance arc but also all development for him. He’s just kind of... there. They’ve got all of this wacky plot happening to him and he’s just there. He’s just generic redemptive hero man with a lovesick puppy complex and I don’t feel like they developed him enough for being the title character. They just decided he was going to do everything for love of this girl he just met who is “special” (the worst excuse for romantic feelings in writing history).  There was so much potential at the beginning to explore HIM, especially some version of him that wasn’t entirely about Thor, then he was entirely removed from everything that matters to him, then they decided that this new character is all that matters to him. I don’t feel like he’s anchored enough to the character we know or that they’ve done a good enough job on his characterization.

- If they were going to go this wacky with the external plot they should’ve just embraced it with the romance too. Call Sylvie “Loki” and have her act like Loki and look more like Loki and then at least I could’ve bought that he fell for her SO quickly because it would be his narcissism. It would be a little creepy and a lot weird and pretty fun and I would be more on board for that than this disappointingly conventional and half-hearted thing that’s happening right now. Heck, she should’ve just been another Tom Hiddleston the whole time. Cowards.

[jazzythursday]

My Take on The Loki Series, And All The Things I Would Change About/Add To It If I Could (in vaguely chronological order)

Small disclaimer: This is just a compilation of all the ideas I had for ways the Loki Series could have gone, expanding on the main premise. It doesn’t cover everything, simply the aspects of the plot that I felt compelled to diverge from specifically. It’s not meant as an overly harsh critique of the show, just alternate possibilities. A… variant of the show if you will (It’s also egregiously long and yet I had to stop myself from saying more).

The series opens in the TVA with a display of the branching timeline that Loki created. We don’t meet any characters yet or see anyone’s faces, only hearing readings of codes and tracking of the Loki ‘variant’ before switching to Loki.

After traveling with the Tesseract, he takes in his surroundings (it can be the Gobi Desert but the thing with the Mongolians does not happen) but before he can get too far the TVA shows up.

I think it would be interesting to have a sequence of Loki evading them in different environments. Teleporting to different areas/planets and using different forms/disguises (maybe we see a Lady Loki in a restaurant, our Loki, and a few other outfits), however the TVA finds him every time no matter where or what form.

Eventually he gets fed up of running and confronts them directly. This should be an actual fight, i.e. magic and a Loki who is committed to not being taken down again. Ultimately through use of magic dampening technology or other means (but for the love of god not whatever that punch was), he is apprehended and taken into the TVA.

I think the TVA should have been a lot more crowded. They control/ monitor all of time, so we should have seen tons of variants of all shapes/colors/styles/species, maybe even a few characters we recognize (like in the concept art for the show). Show us that Loki is not special here, he is just another variant to be processed and done with, like all the others.

Loki will have already noticed and felt a lack of magic at the TVA, maybe he tried to use it already so by the time we get to the judge his main concern is talking his way out—Putting his ‘silver tongue’ to use. (Lack of magic in the TVA would be referenced later as well when Loki goes to summon a knife or use magic, only to remember that he can’t there).

This is a very small point but if the TVA knows him as Laufeyson, he absolutely would take offense to that. It’s been one year since he found out about and killed his birth father, I’d assume wants nothing to do with the title. Of course the TVA wouldn’t care, and we’d probably get something like:

“I am Loki, of Asgard, and you will address me as such.”

“I think you’ll find out things work a little differently here at the TVA, Mr. Laufeyson.”

Before he’s able to be pruned we have Mobius step in and plead his case.

If the show wants to portray Mobius as a friend we’ll see him have sympathy and conflicts about the TVA from the beginning. He doesn’t quite fit in, he’s bored of the monotony of the place and he has remorse for what they’re doing, but knows it’s not his place to question it. I like the idea of him being somewhat of a fan of Loki (they did mention this in the show but then proceeded to have him belittle Loki every time he opened his mouth which is uh… a choice). Mobius needs Loki’s help but he also has the desire to help Loki. He’s seen how his life plays out and understands that there’s more in him than his worst decisions. I think that Mobius secretly/ subconscious wants a bit of chaos, that he’s intrigued by Loki and as an analyst has an interest in understanding him.

Loki vs B15 would ideally happen before Loki returns to the time theater with the Tesseract instead of after. It would not be so easy for her to physically overpower him as even without magic he still has enhanced strength. (The minutemen show no signs of being genetically much stronger than humans, so arguably without use of their technology it’s obvious he could take one in a fight.

Back in the time theater after Loki’s watched the reel of his life, much of the conversation happens the same albeit with a greater emphasis on Loki’s true motivations and his feelings of powerlessness in his role. A bit about Thanos too (realistically vague). Perhaps he thought at the time he was doing what he wanted, but is starting to realize he doesn’t know anymore. Then we see a version of:

“I can’t promise you salvation, but maybe I can offer you something better.”

“A proposition, I see you have done your research. So tell me, agent, what would you have me do?”

Mobius explains why they need him to track down a variant of himself, and they shake on it. It’s clear that neither of them trust each other yet, but there is a mutual understanding that they will work together anyway.

Their friendship should grow naturally, slowly gaining each other’s trust until they see each other as true allies. In this there are more episodes than in the actual show (I’ll say 8 instead of 6). Give them a few more adventures and a bit more time for splitting up to hurt.

In Roxxcart, we see more use of magic. He dries himself off, maybe shape shifts into/imitates B15 or a minuteman. Loki uses illusions in the fight against the variant. He tries to reason with and understand what they are doing and why. The fight is somewhat matched although Loki is still holding back, fighting with misdirection as the variant fights using possession. Neither of them are showing themselves, and in an attempt to make the variant stop hiding, Loki disperses all the doubles and asks them to do the same. He takes a chance and this is how the variant gets the upper hand, setting off the branches and then revealing herself as Sylvie.

(Side note: In the concept art for the show, Loki changes into his Asgardian outfit by the time he and Sylvie are on Lementis. I definitely could see that working either when the fight begins/during it, or when he goes through the time door. In either case I think it would be somewhat of a gesture to Sylvie that he is not truly aligned with the TVA, thus setting them both apart/ in opposition to it.)

Instead of romance, Sylvie and Loki forge a bond through seeing themselves in each other throughout the series. They talk about the differences in their past and how they got there. They bicker and make each other laugh and rather than Sylvie just insulting Loki, it’s a mutual rapport. Loki gives just as good as he gets and they find they can work better together than apart.

On Lementis, Loki easily gets them into the train by impersonating a guard (or by conjuring tickets).

They talk about magic. How Sylvie is untrained but self taught and doesn’t understand hers very well. Loki can talk about how he views magic/his magic (we can maybe pull a few things from Norse beliefs about seiðr here). Does he view it as a part of himself? Something honed and precise? I want magic to be portrayed as an artful practice, and I want him to help Sylvie understand hers.

Loki gets drunk and they’re kicked out of the train. This reads as funny because Loki will have been sharp and competent throughout the show so far, so him losing his cool and failing the plan is unexpected.

Instead of the Tempad breaking for absolutely no reason, they argue over where to go/ how to use it. This leads to them both having a hand at accidentally destroying it because of self interest and refusing to work together. It illustrates again that they are stronger together but in conflict they are their own worst enemy (much like Loki in general which ties into a bigger metaphor for all his shortcomings).

Expanding on the magic thing, Sylvie and Loki through the series learn from each other. Loki can teach her some of his magic, and Slyvie can teach him enchantment (which he’s read about but never really mastered, although he approaches learning it like any other spell).

Loki could show her an illusion of Asgard as he remembers it. And in doing so we see that both of them long for it. Because for all Loki has claimed to renounce it, he misses home, and he and the audience see the same thing in Sylvie.

I think it would be interesting for Sylvie to let him enchant her, and we can see one of her memories. Maybe it’s when she was taken, maybe it’s on the run, maybe it’s a happy place, but it gives us insight into her character and past. I’m on the fence if Slyvie should enchant Loki, but if she did I’d pick them accidentally going back to the day Odin took him (which is how we deal with the icy blue elephant in the room that the writers refuse to tackle). Let Loki be conflicted and angry and unsure how he feels about it. This could once again be a moment where Loki and Sylvie connect because it’s (I’m assuming) where both their stories began. It’s a mirror of both of their origins, and she helps him see some good in that.

In the void (which is renamed something else so as to not get confused with the void™ that Loki fell into in Thor 2011) Loki learns from and connects with his other variants. They all have a point to being there, and he starts to reflect on what makes him him and what role he wants to play now.

When Sylvie and Mobius show up they agree on the plan to kill Aliyoth, either because it will stop anyone else from being killed by the TVA, or because they think he is guarding the entrance to whoever is behind everything.

Loki later asks Sylvie if she had a Thor. She did but probably doesn’t remember him much. What she does remember, she tells him. Through talking to both Classic Loki and Sylvie it’s recognized that he does miss his brother, that all Loki’s do, and that they are constants meant to aid each other and fight and suffer but always be brothers in any universe.

When they finally fight Aliyoth Loki summons new armor/his helm. Along with Kid Loki giving him Laevateinn, each Loki also gives him something to remember them or aid in their quest (yay Loki solidarity!). When I say this I mean daggers! Daggers dear gods have one of them give him daggers, boy needs some knives.

When they realize they can’t kill him, Sylvie has the idea to use enchantment. Like in the show, Sylvie can’t do it on her own and so they join hands and combine their powers together, revealing the Citadel beyond. They look at each other and agree that they have to move forward.

“Do we trust each other?”

“We do.”

Inside the Citadel we have Kang himself make the offer to give them what they wish. Sylvie can get the life that was stolen from her. Loki could be offered a Throne, he could be offered to be the first born, or to be a true Æsir, or kill Thanos, but ultimately he denies. He’s realized throughout the show that he’d rather be different, he’d rather be him, and he won’t settle for a fantasy world that isn’t real.

The message is about choice, about free will, chaos. Every choice you make directly results in who you become, every action changes how your story goes, and Loki understands that no one has the right to limit that.

In this it is Sylvie though, who is tempted. She has been on a quest for revenge her whole life, she never had a home, doesn’t remember feeling loved, and in the end it is a fight against temptation, and Loki knows all about that.

They fight each other, and break their vow of trust because ultimately they are each other but they are also different. They clash until Loki is able to talk her down, to relate to her, to show that he “just wants her to be okay” and reaffirms her goal. Kang of course continues to be self assured in his predictions. I’d imagine here is where we could get a declarative sort of speech like “I am Loki, God of Mischief,” They join hands “and no one tells our story” or… something to that affect.

Loki and Sylvie fight to destroy Kang together, and here we discover that if he is killed the multiverse opens, and the war of his variants will begin anew. We see flashbacks of Kang’s past and variants played out, and how he came to be at the citadel. Sylvie can talk about why it’s better to have chaos than to sanitize history and kill in the name of the greater good.

The show ends with the death of Kang and the splintering of the timelines. With Sylvie and Loki looking out the window into the fracturing strands of time.

Other changes and thoughts

Tone: the tone I’d imagine this would take on is possibly a bit more serious than the canon show. While it’s still comedy, it would be much less cartoonish, and generally fit in with the rest of the MCU a little easier.

In relation to Mobius:

Mobius’s crisis of faith would be a long time coming. Throughout the show we see him hesitate more and more to do as the TVA asks, and have an increasingly harder time justifying their actions. Learning that the whole thing is a lie is simply the tipping point that drives him to act.

In his confrontation with Renslayer he’d be a lot more driven/succinct. If he wants the TVA to burn then he wants the TVA to burn. He sees the wrongness in it’s entirety and attempts to convince Renslayer the same thing. When it’s clear that she is unreachable/ still sure of her mission, they come to an impasse. They each threaten to prune the other, parallel and matched on opposite sides of their belief. Ultimately though, neither can go through with it, and (if we’re sticking mostly with the canon ending) she leaves through a time door to who knows when to search for who knows what and Mobius and B15 regroup.

In relation to the other Loki’s:

I’m still on the fence how many Loki’s would be played by Tom, but I think the answer is, if not almost all, then at least more than we got.

Each Loki should read as distinctly Loki in essence. Less comic easter eggs and more focus on understanding the established canon character. Even greater in this scene though is the focus on the theme of choice. If there’s time we could learn what choices led up to each variant being apprehended, and see just a bit of how they feel about it. It’s about how our choices dictate who we become, rather than pre-set paths of completely separate realities and lives to our Loki’s.

I love Classic Loki’s speech about how it’s their destiny to play a certain part and if they try and change it the TVA stops them. I’d like our Loki, while conflicted about if he can truly change, to be motivated to try and finally brake the chains that have always restricted him (first his father, then Thanos, now the TVA). I also think here is where we could talk about how abrupt their end is ‘meant’ to be. That he was working on being better, that he had apparently helped his people and reconciled with his brother. That not only was his life cut short, but that the finality of that conclusion wasn’t truly the only way, but simply decided for him.

In relation to themes:

“What makes a Loki a Loki?” Is a question that should loom in the background of the whole series. Starting with Mobius’s interrogation when he’ll begin questioning his place in the universe and his understanding of himself, and ending with the finale confrontation with Kang where he’ll answer it.

“No one bad is ever truly bad, and no one good is ever truly good.” Is similarly something I think should have been a continued focus. Loki is considered a morally grey character and a chaos god, and thus none of his actions are black and white. Others may try and decide who he is at his core, but fundamentally the conclusion is not about deciding to be a hero, but deciding to be true to yourself and doing better.

“The banality of evil” in relation to the TVA. It’s clear from the first ten minutes of the actual show that the TVA is corrupt, unjust, and unnatural in their cleansing of the multiverse… so lean into it! I’m not necessary talking about changing much here, just that the narrative framing displays their actions as deplorable as they are.

“Glorious Purpose” is um… not something I think needed to be the main focus here. I might be biased because I buy into the theory that “you were made to be ruled” “freedom is life’s greatest lie” and “I am burdened with glorious purpose” are messages that have been somewhat impressed upon him rather than beliefs he came to realize on his own, but I do think it was somewhat oversimplified and overused in the series.

You are the writer of your own story. This is the message I expected the show to end with, and it’s what I’m personally trying to convey through these musings. This story ends with Loki taking back his destiny, forging a new one, connecting with himself and others and helping to free the timelines. He’s not the worst things he’s ever done, he’s not a villain, he’s not a benevolent hero. Loki is just Loki, Sylvie is just Sylvie, and you are just you, whoever we decide to be (that was cheesy I’m sorry).

[twh-news]

‘Loki’ Season One Finale Introduces A Key Character From Upcoming ‘Ant-Man & The Wasp: Quantumania’ – Recap

Warning: The following recap of the season one finale of Loki, “For All Time. Always” contains spoilers.

Instead of burning down the theatrical slate to feed the beast of streaming, one hopes that Disney bosses’ wake up to the fact that it’s series like Loki which are the pumping aorta of an OTT service.

The cliffhanger for Loki just keeps us hungering for more, and rather than keep us guessing, Marvel promptly revealed during the end-credits last night that there is indeed a season 2. It’s the serials which keep streamers alive, not the movies. Those who spent $60M WW on Black Widow aren’t going to buy it again. But it’s a nail-biting series like Loki which creates ‘must-see’ and therefore frosh sign-ups on Disney+.

In addition, as part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe’s new plan to connect their Disney+ series with their movies, it’s obvious Loki will be bridging to the feature Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania, as Jonathan Majors’ villain was finally introduced. Deadline first broke the news that Majors would play Kang the Conquerer in Ant-Man 3. While he didn’t go by that title, he was referred to as “He Who Remains” throughout the entire episode, as first indicated by Miss Minutes who welcomes Loki and Sylvie to the Citadel at the End of Time, He Who Remains’ domicile. However, it’s the variant of He Who Remains that becomes Kang.

Majors in his parts in White Boy Rick and Atticus Freeman in HBO’s Lovecraft Country deftly carries gravitas, but here as He Who Remains/Kang, he gets to stretch in a comical way, with his facets of performance evoking Frank Morgan’s as the Wizard of Oz. Marvel paid off here on what many fanboys were guessing: that it was He Who Remains who was at the end of time. For those studying Easter Eggs in Loki, there was a statue in the TVA piazza of Kang which toward the end of the finale’s episode, we see Loki look up to; the whole moment being a Usual Suspects-ending-like homage. Marvel isn’t always up to paying off: Many thought Mephisto was the big-bad-baddie at the end of WandaVision, and for a minute there was some guessing that was the case in Loki when we see the stained glass window of the devil in ancient France in Ep. 1, however, director Kate Herron told us very early on that the extra-dimensional demon wasn’t in the cards for the MCU series.

After Loki and Sylvie get past Miss Minutes, who in Satanic fashion is trying to offer them all the riches of the world to get them back on the timeline (‘Loki, the Infinity Gauntlet is yours’, ‘You kill Thanos’, ‘How about the throne on Asgard?���), Thor’s adopted brother blasts “We write our own destiny now!”.

“Good Luck with that,” answers Miss Minutes.

The duo try to kill He Who Remains, but he just keeps disappearing due to his TempPad.  He Who Remains tells them he “knows all and has seen it all.” The entire journey that Loki and Sylvie took between Lementis and the Void, “I paved the road, you just walked down it” He Who Remains tells them. He gets them to settle down in front of his desk and tells them about how he, and the whole timeline-TVA thing came to be. A variant of He Who Remains live on Earth in the 31st century, a scientist who learned that the universe was stacked on similar universes. Other variants of him were learning the same theory simultaneously. His variants made contact and there was a peace, and they shared technology. However, “not every version of me, was so pure of heart” and war erupted between the multiverses. Each variant trying to preserve their universe and annihilate the others. “This was almost the end of everyone and everything,” says He Who Remains. The first He Who Remains variant encountered Alioth who was able to harness his power and weaponize him and “I ended the Multiversal War!”.

After He Who Remains isolated “our timeline”, he created the TVA in order to create ages of cosmic harmony.

“You came to kill the devil right?” says He Who Remains, “Well, I keep you safe. If you think I’m evil, just wait till you meet my variants.”

“The TVA, it works,” he adds.

Sylvie believes He Who Remains is lying. He offers them two options: Kill him and there will be a Multiversal War, or Loki and Sylvie can run He Who Remains’ timeline, and make the TVA innocent. The duo aren’t amused with the latter offer. Sylvie is irate at how He Who Remains has made a game out of time and played with people’s lives, especially hers.

He Who Remains then feels a rumble: “We just crossed a threshold”. There are some elements of the timeline he can’t control; he confesses to the two that he lied, that he really doesn’t know how everything in life will turn out. If He Who Remains is killed, he warns that another version of him will just reincarnate and plop himself in the throne at the end of time. All of this culminates in a sword fight between Loki and Sylvie: the former believes He Who Remains that a mess is evident in his death. “That’s the gambit: remove the dictator and what feels the void,” Loki argues. After they kiss, Sylvie pushes Loki through a time portal door back to the TVA.  She then stabs Kang, and soon enough notices a multitude of diverges in the cosmic timeline outside his castle window.

Much, much earlier in the episode, Mobius confronts Ravonna regarding her abuse of authority at the TVA.  She doesn’t know about He Who Remains, who runs the TVA.  She’s collecting files from Miss Minutes in order to go on her own journey of discovery about the org. A flashback reveals that she used to be a high school teacher, and was somehow declared a variant, encountering B-15. Mobius is about to prune Ravonna. They fight, but she winds up getting the pruning weapon in her hand. A time portal door opens and she tells Mobius, almost sarcastically, that she’s going to search for free will.

After Sylvie kills He Who Remains, Mobius and Hunter B-15 notice another explosion in the timeline on the TVA monitors. Loki finds them and exclaims that they can’t stop the huge divergence in time. “It’s done, Mobius. We made a terrible mistake. We freed the timeline. We found him. Beyond the storm. A Citadel at the End of Time. He’s terrifying. He planned everything. He’s seen everything. He knows everything.”

“But someone is coming: Countless different versions of a very dangerous person,” warns Loki.

And to all of this, what is Mobius’ response?

“Who are you? What’s your name?” says Owen Wilson’s character not recognizing the trickster.

Hunter B-15 then orders troops to capture Loki.

Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania, directed by Peyton Reed, hits theaters on Feb. 17, 2023. The question is: Will we see season 2 of Loki before then?

[wazafam]

The newest trailer for Marvel's upcoming Loki series once again features a shot of a redheaded woman sitting with Loki – but it's entirely possible this character is Verity Willis, not Black Widow or even Lady Loki. The third Marvel series for Disney+ will follow the exploits of the God of Mischief after the events of The Avengers, when a 2012 just post-Battle of New York version of Loki snags the Tesseract and poofs out of S.H.I.E.L.D. custody.

However, that action ends up breaking the timeline and so he's conscripted into service by Owen Wilson's Mobius M. Mobius of the Time Variance Authority, who capture and recruit him in order to help them fix the universe he messed up. The trailers make it appear as though Loki will be bouncing around various timelines and running into a number of new characters. One of those new characters is one some believe will actually be an old character: Black Widow. And, it's true, the trailer shots of a redheaded woman with a short bob sitting next to Loki in what appears to be an alien world does bear a rather uncanny resemblance, at least from behind and at a distance, to Avengers-era Natasha Romanoff.

Related: Loki Trailer 2 Breakdown: Every New Secret & Reveal

But there's another character being largely overlooked to this point, and it's one who has important ties to Loki in the comics: Verity Willis. Here's why it's entirely possible that the redheaded woman people keep spotting in the trailer is Verity, not Natasha - or even Lady Loki, as others have posited.

As with many Marvel movies and TV shows, the Loki series looks to be a very loose adaptation – call it a spiritual adaptation – of the Loki: Agent of Asgard series by Al Ewing & Jason Aaron. In that series, he's not working for the TVA, but the All-Mother. Determined to erase his past as a villain and become a truly good person, Loki agrees to be a secret agent for Asgard. For every successful mission he pulls off, one of his sins is stricken from the gods' record book and replaced with a good deed. Though it appears that in the series he'll be helping the TVA for slightly less noble reasons, at least at first, but the core premise is the same: Loki acts as an agent sent on various missions across time to right wrongs and atone for his crimes.

While Loki establishes himself on Earth, one human he meets becomes more important than anyone to him: Verity Willis. Verity is a human who, through an accident when she was a baby, possesses the ability to see through any lie or illusion, whether told for good or ill intention – making her an intriguing and formidable match for Loki, the master of lies, even with his magic. While he's shocked she immediately sees through his guise of an old man, eventually, the two form a bond that blossoms into a close friendship. Over time, Verity becomes Loki's best friend, arguably the only real friend he's ever had. While Verity hasn't made any appearances outside of the Agent of Asgard comics, she had an enormous impact on Loki.

It's unlikely that the woman in the trailer is Natasha. For starters, it's not generally been Marvel's way to reveal something that big in the trailers. Secondly, it just doesn't make much sense to bring her back. While Black Widow is now coming out a month after Loki, it was originally supposed to be released well before the Marvel Disney+ show and its new release date was only decided upon a few weeks ago. With Natasha's death in Avengers: Endgame, Black Widow director Cate Shortland and Scarlett Johansson both have said that the movie was meant to serve as a final goodbye to Natasha and give her the proper send-off she deserves. With that in mind, it would be incredibly odd for Marvel to bring back Black Widow for a cameo in Loki as it would undercut the emotional impact of her sacrifice in Endgame and everything her solo film is trying to accomplish.

Related: Phase 4 Needs To Explore Black Widow's Death For Bucky's Sake

Of course, it is possible that it is Natasha in an alternate timeline: After all, of all the Avengers Loki has gone up against, Black Widow is likely the one he's closest to having a grudging respect for seeing as how she played him at his own game in Avengers to learn his plan for the Hulk. The others he doesn't have much use for, but Natasha's successful deception is something that, in his own perverse way, Loki would approve of. But even that doesn't make much sense.

Nor is it likely to be Lady Loki for no other reason than that it would be a wild reimagining of how she looks in the comics. In the comics, she's literally just the female form of the genderfluid Loki and as such looks exactly like him: Black hair, green eyes, pale skin. That's not to say Lady Loki won't be appearing in the Loki series - in fact, it seems almost certain she will, especially now that the trailer has confirmed there are "variants" of Loki in different universes or timelines – it's just that it's unlikely she's the redhead people keep spotting in the trailer. Even more than Black Widow, Lady Loki would be a character Marvel would absolutely not give away in trailers.

There is admittedly a third option: It's Lady Loki glamoured to look like Black Widow. If that were the case, technically, that shot in the trailer would neither undermine Natasha's end as it's not actually Natasha, nor would it give away that it's Lady Loki as it doesn't reveal her on the surface. Still, for everyone convinced it's Black Widow or Lady Loki in that scene are overlooking what Verity could bring to the series.

The Loki of the Disney+ series is not the Loki who found himself on a redemption arc after the brutal blow of his mother's death and helping Thor save Jane Foster in Thor: The Dark World, losing his adoptive father and defending Asgard against Hela in Thor: Ragnarok, or attempting (however uncharacteristically poorly) to kill Thanos and keep the Tesseract from him in Avengers: Infinity War. This is the Loki who was under the control of the Mind Stone until recently and who had attempted to take over the world by destroying New York. If he wants to be redeemed, something or someone will have to propel him toward a redemption arc. That something could very well be Verity Willis.

Related: Loki Trailer Confirms Loki Is Behind The MCU's Multiverse Problem

In the comics, Verity was the only person Loki couldn't fool and because he had to be completely honest with her, she was arguably the only person in this world or any other who got to know Loki for exactly who he was. It was Verity's faith in Loki and her true friendship that gave him the encouragement he needed to cast off his title of the God of Mischief to become the God of Stories. It mattered to him that she always knew he was telling the truth after a millennium of him lying so much for so long that no one believed him when he actually did tell the truth. As he says to her in Loki: Agent of Asgard #6, "Verity-- I'm sorry. I'm not used to having friends, and I don't know how to be a good one. But I'm trying. And I want to change. I want to be better than I am. [...] Just... trust me. Trust in me.”

While the Loki of the series is a pre-redemption Loki, it doesn't mean he's a completely different Loki. He's still the same Loki, just from an earlier point of time. All the willingness to become a better man and grow closer to Thor is still theoretically inside him – he just needs a bit of a push and a reason to want to become a better man. There are a number of different ways Loki could set him on a path to becoming a true hero, but it would create the most interesting dynamic if it were Verity Willis, and not Black Widow or Lady Loki, who helps the God of Mischief do it.

More: The Loki Series Needs To Show Thor's MCU Journey From Loki's Perspective

Loki Theory: The Woman In The Trailer Is Verity Willis (Not Black Widow) from https://ift.tt/3rUvto9

[comicsbeat]

By Brian Hibbs

The solicits for August 2017 Marvel comics have finally been released – the start of “Marvel Legacy” – and I think it is now fair to ask if Marvel actually hears or heard any of the criticism of their line over the last few months.

People have complained about (among other things) the lack of “the real” Marvel characters, about over-expansion watering down the line, about tired creative teams who should be replaced, and about a reliance on gimmicks over substance. And, based purely on the solicitations, Marvel does not immediately appear to have taken virtually any of these points to heart.

Let’s take those more or less in order, starting with “the real” Marvel characters. Now I, for one, find this particular complaint pretty drastically overblown: despite the new consensus of the internet, I would argue to you that characters like Tony Stark, Steve Rogers and “original Thor” are actually really uninteresting characters who have, largely, outstayed their welcome – there’s a reason that these characters keep getting replaced with new versions again and again and again: unless you’re exclusively mining nostalgia, it’s hard to keep these characters fresh and relevant at all. Watch and see: after they come back, some creator will be trying to replace them again within five years. It happens every time.

If anything, I think Marvel’s actual mistake was having all of those characters off-stage at the same time – you look around the “Marvel Universe” and you recognize almost none of the characters… well, that’s jarring. But it isn’t true that the OG versions are inherently fascinating enough to freeze them in amber, in my considered opinon.

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Either way, that was what people are saying that they wanted: “the real” versions back. But reading these solicits, it doesn’t appear that any of the characters are back in these “Legacy” renumbered comics – yes, it looks like they’re setting up stories where they will come back eventually, but they’re not back here at the time of the actual repositioning itself. Here’s the text for, say, Invincible Iron Man #593: “THE SEARCH FOR TONY STARK Part 1 Tony Stark has vanished! The mystery deepens as Stark friends and foes must decide, finally, who will wield the power of Iron Man! All the contenders are in position, and all the armor is polished. There can only be one Armored Avenger! The path to the most startling Iron Man story ever begins here!”

This would appear to be clearly saying that while Tony is coming back, he isn’t in this comic book. I’m going to assume he’s going to show up again probably just in time for “issue #600”, because: comics. But what’s the reason for a reader who has decided he doesn’t like the current direction of “Iron Man” to jump on here at this “jump on” point? Not only is the comic seemingly not giving them what they asked for, it’s doing so under the exact same creative stewardship that has already driven them away from the book.

Think that is strong words? Well, here’s “Iron Man”’s sales arc over the last while (thank you Xavier Lancel for making the chart, and ICv2 for the numbers)

06/14 Iron Man v6 #28 – 28,027 ( -0.9%)

…

06/15 Sup. Iron Man #9 – 33,989 ( +6.2%)

…

10/15 Invincible Iron Man #1 – 279,514

10/15 Invincible Iron Man #2 – 66,664 (-76.2%)

11/15 Invincible Iron Man #3 – 59,069 (-11.4%)

12/15 Invincible Iron Man #4 – 57,639 (- 2.4%)

01/16 Invincible Iron Man #5 – 49,225 (-14.6%)

02/16 Invincible Iron Man #6 – 63,234 (+28.5%) (War Machines)

03/16 Invincible Iron Man #7 – 57,972 (War Machines)

04/16 Invincible Iron Man #8 – 46,520 (War Machines)

05/16 Invincible Iron Man #9 – 49,334 (+6.0%) (CV2)

06/16 Invincible Iron Man #10- 49,141 (- 0.4%) (CV2)

07/16 Invincible Iron Man #11- 49,439 (+0.6%) (CV2)

08/16 Invincible Iron Man #12- 50,571 (+2.3%) (CV2)

09/16 Invincible Iron Man #13- 48,394 (- 4.3%) (CV2)

10/16 Invincible Iron Man #14- 43,888 (- 9.3%) (CV2)

11/16 Invincible Iron Man # 1- 97,713

12/16 Invincible Iron Man # 2- 81,271 (-16.8%)

01/17 Invincible Iron Man # 3- 44,184 (-45.7%)

02/17 Invincible Iron Man #4- 36,600 (-17.2%)

03/17 Invincible Iron Man #5- 38,746 (+ 5.9%)

04/17 Invincible Iron Man #6- 31,561 (-18.5%)

05/17 Invincible Iron Man #7- 28,266 (-10.4%)

Those numbers look awful, the book is cratering and the audience isn’t interested in it, delivering some of the lowest “Iron Man” sales of all time – so why is this specific “legacy” iteration going to be any different?

It isn’t just “Iron Man”, of course – of the twenty-nine “Marvel Legacy” comics on the August order form, only two are entirely “new” series (“Falcon” and “Spirits of Vengeance”), and of those remaining twenty-seven, only a single one has a different writer in place (“Cable”, replacing James Robinson with Ed Brisson… in a move that seems like it was going to happen with or without “Legacy”) than it did two months before. And virtually every one of those comics has a similar sales trajectory.

Keeping the creative teams the same seems… well, strange to me. Marvel has reached a point with its publishing program that it has chased enough readers away that the don’t have a single ongoing Marvel Superhero comic that is not a first issue in the month of June that even sold 60,000 copies. If you told Jim Shooter or Tom DeFalco that, I suspect they might laugh in your face (books that sold under 100k back then got the axe!)

So, if you’re flopping on that level, why on earth would you stick with exactly the same creators in exactly the same iteration of titles? I’m not saying “get rid of X!”, but at least change up who is doing what book to bring some fresh energy in.

Here’s your kicker, for all of these new “Legacy” books, Marvel has set a target number of sales that it expects – and also that gates things like certain variant covers – and Iron Man’s reads like this: “Meet or exceed 225% of orders for Invincible Iron Man #7 [MAR171004] with orders for Invincible Iron Man #593 regular cover” Two hundred and twenty five percent, oy!

Now to be fair, Marvel does often downgrade such ambitious targets in the face of retailer incredulousness, and there are some indications that something is going to happen with these targets as well, but in all official documentation available to me today Marvel is claiming that we should more than double our orders for something that essentially the exact same product as it was the month before. The current lowest percentage for any of the “Legacy” books is 125%. The highest is 250%.

What does meeting that gate get you? Well, again, this is only for now, because Marvel has this nasty nasty habit of changing and adding permutations as we get closer to “Final Order Cutoff” (which sucks because that means as a retailer you have to do your math and calculations multiple times unless you don’t place “initial orders” [which can carry its own consequences, see below]) – but currently if you meet that gate, then you’ll be allowed to order 1) “INVINCIBLE IRON MAN #593 DAVIS LH VAR LEG” (which despite lack of that word in the actual product name is the “Lenticular Homage” Variant) 2) “INVINCIBLE IRON MAN #593 ZDARSKY HOW TO DRAW VAR LEG”, and if you “only” match 200% of your orders, then you get blessed to be able to order 3) “INVINCIBLE IRON MAN #593 TRADING CARD VAR LEG”. This doesn’t include the 1:10 and 1:50 covers. Three of these five covers don’t even yet have art for which a retailer can base a decision upon, either!

But, in short if you don’t order 225% of a previous issue of “Iron Man”, then you are not allowed to order any copies of those two variants. None at all.

Now the Lenticular covers are fairly new – in fact, originally the announced plan was to simply have a “Homage” variant for each “Legacy” book. The one for IM #593 is a call-back to IM volume 1 #150. These covers were originally announced as not being lenticular at all, and, oddly, the lenticular is a replacement and not an addition – there’s no longer a non-lenticular edition of any of them.

But the thing is: Lenticular covers (like those on DC books like the whole “Villains Month” stunt a few years back, or more recently on “The Button” storyline) are very popular with customers, to the point where it is my experience that if the lenticular is available, the vast majority of customers prefer the “fancy” one. And in the case of the Marvel “Legacy” covers, this should be even greater because the Lenticular has the same cover price as the regular edition. From a particular POV, the “regular” cover is now far far less desirable as a result.

But again, you can’t order any copies of the lenticular of “Iron Man” if you don’t order 225% of the regular one. Another problem: this kind of line-wide stunt really becomes an “all-in, or stay out” kind of program – it simply isn’t rational to think you can carry a few of the lenticular covers, but not all of them. That’s not how audience response works. If you buy-in, you have to buy-in across the board.

You’re not even a comic book retailer, and you see the conundrum, right? If you get 225% of the one you can order the other, more desirable version, but then you lose pretty much any demand for the “regular” edition in the first place, even if you can sell 300% or more of the fancy version. Literally, you are being asked to purchase comics you can’t sell, in order to gain access to comics that you can. While a small handful of people are willing or able to buy multiple copies of the same insides, the largest majority of customers just want a single version to buy.

That’s madness.

Compounding this situation, Marvel has also announced that you can not receive your regular discount on the Lenticular edition – a massive break from decades of business. Instead, your discount is capped at 50%, removing up to nine percentage points of margin from their largest accounts. That doesn’t necessarily sound like much to the lay person, but please let me assure you that those points of margin are where the actual profit (if any!) of selling comics comes from.

And let’s compound it again: Marvel is also saying that it can only guarantee orders for those covers that are placed by the Initial Order deadline of August 24 (again, these are books shipping in October) – anything placed after that date, even if it is before “Final Order Cutoff” dates in September runs the risk of being allocated. This gives very little time to figure out what you need, and, in fact, runs entirely contrary to how a significant number of retailers now do business.

When you add these things together, it’s very hard to see how a store can stock the lenticular covers in a way that is profitable, unless their intention is to mark them way up for the aftermarket. In fact, that becomes almost a self-reinforcing principle since it seems clear to me that a significant number of stores in any given market are going to opt out of stocking the lenticulars at all because of the low chance at making a profit in a non-mercenary way. This, in turn, increases the demand at the places that do have them, and nearly guarantees that these comics will be speculator-bait and chum for a frenzy as a result. At least one prominent retailer has already openly embraced such a plan, gleefully saying that he intends to sell these for double cover price to all of the customers the less ethically-challenged amongst will be turning away.

And it’s not like he doesn’t have a point – there’s a clear opportunity to profit here that becomes inherently self-reinforcing.

The question for me always becomes: what is the publisher trying to accomplish? Marvel clearly knows, has known, and probably always will know how to sell a speculator-bait launch or first issue. Look back at that “Iron Man” chart – almost two hundred and eighty thousand copies of that first issue in 2015 on the market for a book that clearly had a long-term audience of less than a quarter of that. That’s all from variants – it had a 1:15, three different 1:25 variants, and what looks like no less than four different “beat this threshold to order any” covers (it was 160% of “Old Man Logan” #1 back then) There was also a one-per-store “party” variant, and a number of store-exclusive covers as well.

So they know how to sell a first issue – and these lenticular are going to sell to the national market like a house on fire because they are speculator-bait – but how do they sell a fourth issue? Marvel kind of sucks at that.

For “Legacy” to be a success (a success that the market needs right now!), Marvel needs their lapsed readers to come back. And the problem that I see is that selling the flash and sizzle as the main selling point is sure to induce a speculator frenzy, but will do very little to bring back the lapsed. We’ve played this song before. Played it to death, and the audience doesn’t want to hear it any more.

But again: who is Marvel trying to attract? If it is speculators, they’re set. But if it is the lapsed reader, creating a speculative product that the market doesn’t have easy and equal easy and simple access to seems like entirely 100% the wrong tack to take.

It seems to me that all the talk of a new direction with “Marvel Legacy” is actually yielding very little change at all – in fact, most of the comics that are going to the same comic they were going to be before this rebranding effort was pitched. Sure, there might be certain storylines that have been pushed back or forward as a result, but there’s not the level of wholesale change that the audience appears to be demanding.

Right now “fancy” covers are trying to cover a multitude of underlying problems with the actual core product. This is not the first time such a thing has been tried, and I wish I can remember who it was, but I remember talking to a retailer who told me they had built a literal chair out of the leftover copies of “Adventures of Superman #500” they had; with similar stories about just how many unsold and unsalable copies of “Turok” #1 were left over. Those who don’t know their history are doomed to repeat it, and while I’m hopefully we’ve wised up as a class to not fall down that same rabbit hole again, when I see Marvel’s August plans, added to DC’s August books with foil covers (three), Lenticulars (two) and even a glow-in-the-dark cover I think “Damn, we’re there again, where greed and glitz has overwhelmed common sense”

That time of the crash and the few years after it was dire for comics, and this time is likely to be significantly worse, as we don’t have a core of books selling at 100k or more to keep things propped up.

I think it will be great for them if Marvel sells a bunch of dollars of comics in October thanks to manipulative processes designed to get the greedy moving – but it won’t mean a damn thing if come January “Iron Man” is back to selling under 40k again because speculator bait never ever has led to stable long-term growing sales.

Until Marvel is willing to think about the long-term steps needed to right their ship they’re going to remain in danger of collapsing the entire market; and there is literally nothing they’ve shown us from “Marvel Legacy” so far that doesn’t literally feel like rearranging the deck chair on the Titanic.

I hope to god I’m wrong; otherwise 2018 is going to suck.

**************************

Brian Hibbs has owned and operated Comix Experience in San Francisco since 1989, was a founding member of the Board of Directors of ComicsPRO, has sat on the Board of the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, and has been an Eisner Award judge. Feel free to e-mail him with any comments. You can purchase two collections of the first Tilting at Windmills (originally serialized in Comics Retailer magazine) published by IDW Publishing, as well as find an archive of pre-CBR installments right here. Brian is also available to consult for your publishing or retailing program.

Tilting at Windmills #261: Marvel Comics and The Deck Chairs of the Titanic By Brian Hibbs The solicits for August 2017 Marvel comics have finally been released – the start of “Marvel Legacy” – and I think it is now fair to ask if Marvel actually hears or heard any of the criticism of their line over the last few months.

[aion-rsa]

Jughead's Time Police: Archie Comics Goes Snack to the Future

https://ift.tt/2WbvPqW

Featuring an exclusive look at variant covers from the upcoming mini-series, here's your guide to Jughead's Time Police.

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Interview Chris Cummins

Mar 19, 2019

Archie Comics

riverdale

Back in the early 1990s, Archie Comics released an ambitious series of titles aimed at illustrating how the veteran indie publisher could tell different types of stories using their characters. These various books ranged from interesting failures (Jughead's Diner, Explorers of the Unknown) to regrettable curiosites (Archie's R/C Racers, no). Yet much like Marty McFly unleashing rock and roll at the Enchantment Under the Sea dance, one of these experiments was so far ahead of its, er, time that it would take a generation to pick up what Archie was throwing down.

That title was Jughead's Time Police.

Despite only running for a measly six issues, Jughead's Time Police foreshadowed the Archie creative renaissance that began a decade ago by telling a status quo-shattering story that pushed the parameters of these characters while maintaining what made them so lovable in the first place.

In the original run, Jughead became an agent for the Time Police, an agency determined to protect the proper flow of history. Utilizing a special version of his famed whoopee cap to travel through time, he is partnered with January McAdams, a deputy with the agency who just so happens to be Archie's descendant whose home timeline in this 29th century. Together, they encountered historical figures and battled the villainous Morgan Le Fay in an effort to preserve time from falling into the usual chaos that paradoxes and mucking about with the past (and future can cause).

It was a weird book, and one whose stories featured DNA traces of everything from Quantum Leap to Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, Doctor Who to Moonlighting (the latter in reference to the would-be romance between Jughead and January). It may have all been a bit too jarring for 1990 readers, but now that Archie is known for shaking things up, audiences have gone back and rediscovered the series. Following popularity on the Archie digital app, a trade paperback of the complete Jughead's Time Police was issued last April, paving the way for the latest example of how everything old is new again, a forthcoming five issue mini-series reboot of the title from the creative team of writer Sina Grace (Iceman) and artist Derek Charm (who recently worked on the Jughead relaunch for the company, and is also known for his work on The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl). Matt Herms is the colorist, with Jack Morelli working as letterer for the book, which will become an ongoing title if the demand is there following the mini-series' launch. Fingers crossed.

Via e-mail, we had the opportunity to speak to Grace and Charm to get their thoughts on why Jughead's Time Police has endured, and what we can expect from the new title.

Given the timey wimey nature of the material, will this be a reboot of the story, a continuation of the original adventures or something else entirely?

Sina Grace - The best way to put it is, we’re catching a version of the Jughead we know and love from the Mark Waid/Chip Zdarsky/ Ryan North books. His efforts to prevent the catastrophe that was his pie baking contest end up creating a pretty massive space-time continuum issue. He’ll be meeting January McAndrews for the first time. That’s all I can say for now.

How did you each become involved in the project?

Derek Charm - We’d all been talking about doing something new with Jughead for a while, pretty much since right after the previous series ended, but it was about finding the right angle and the right story and everyone’s schedules lining up. I’m glad it took as long as it did because it’s awesome to be diving back into this world with enough space between what we did before to reevaluate certain things and hopefully come up with something fresh and exciting.

Grace - Well, of all the Archie crew, I love, love, love Jughead. No matter who interprets him, I feel like I totally relate. I had been trying to find a project to work on with editor Alex Segura. First it was a standard Jughead series with a very grounded plot, and it wasn’t a fit. We stayed in touch, meaning I persistently hounded him and begged for a chance to play with the Archie cast. It was actually his idea for me to revisit those stories and see if I had my take on Jughead needing to put on his time travel cap.

What is it about Jughead and January's relationship that has connected with readers?

Grace - I’ll just be blunt: I think at face value it’s because January idolizes Jughead, and Jughead loves the access to a future where he’s an iconic historical figure. That being said, I truly think that fans enjoy seeing Jughead get to play the lead in an action story with an equally zingy co-captain. He totally respects January, and their chemistry is unique.

Derek, obviously you have a great deal of experience in working with these characters, how will you approach your art for this book differently than your traditional Jughead work, if at all?

Charm - I’m treating this a whole new thing visually. For every character and location that comes up, I try to take a new look and do something different than we did before. I’m really excited for what’s coming with the different time periods and different takes on the established characters that we’ll be seeing. Also, it’s hard to believe, but The CW’s Riverdale wasn’t around when I started on Jughead the first time, so that’s a whole new aspect of Archie history to take inspiration from. 

Are you personally a fan of the sci-fi comedy genre? If so, what are some of your influences?

Grace - You know, I never even made the connection that there was a category for that genre! But yeah, for sure! Bill & Ted is obviously a hallmark. Is Back to the Future sci-fi comedy, or just a sci-fi movie that happens to be funny? I really liked Russian Doll. The humor and character play in Firefly still sticks with me. Thor: Ragnarok was absolutely amazing and hilarious and deeeeeeply sci-fi. I need to spend more time with Future Man, man.

What are some science fiction works you draw influence from, and can we expect to see nods to these in this new series?

Charm - Back to the Future has been a really big one, obviously, but mainly for the tone. Sina’s scripts are so quick and fun and it’s the same kind of vibe where Doc Brown just has a time machine car and it’s beside the point because things are happening and you just have to keep up with the story and have fun. 

Why do you think Jughead's Time Police has gathered such a cult following since its initial run?

Grace - Everyone loves a good time travel story, and I think Jughead’s really the only character in that cast who would revel in the fun of it all. Plus, the 29th century is such a cool place to be. That’s what I’m most excited about with this series -- we’ll be spending a good amount of time in the future, and exploring what that world looks like. Derek has already turned in some amazing work, and I too am now trying to figure out how jump forward by a few months to June and see readers’ reactions!

What can you tell us about what to expect with this series?

Grace - Anybody who has read my work over at Marvel Comics knows I have a deep understanding of how complicated time travel can be, and how much fun divergent timelines can be, too! I learned a lot at the House of Ideas, and I’m excited to basically crib “Days of Future Past” for the Archieverse.

Just kidding. I’m gonna have time-displaced Riverdale middle school students show up. I tease! But, for real? There may be some pouches in the series.

Jughead's Time Police hits stores on June 12th, and Den of Geek has your exclusive first look at variant covers from Tyler Boss, Robert Hack with Kelly Fitzpatrick, Tracy Yardley, and Francesco Francavilla. Take a look:

We'll have more on Jughead's Time Police in the months ahead....or is that five minutes ago? This time travel stuff gets confusing quick.

Chris Cummins is a writer/Archie Comics historian who daydreams about scripting a Starship Rivda reboot. You can follow him on Twitter at @bionicbigfoot and @scifiexplosion.

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