#every single characterization in this side character is me and its not flattering

[haze-of-hyperfixations]

i was going to try and write a competent ask but i am very sleepy so i shall just ask instead - do you have any opinions/headcanons about odysseus’ dynamic with athena through the ages? no pressure to answer or anything of course <3

hi!!

i have a few thoughts on them, but they aren't the most coherent thoughts. kinda more vibe-based ramblings? that being said, here they are!

i think they have such a multi-layered aspect to their dynamic. like. she's his mentor, she's his friend, she's a goddess with the power to help him or end him at a moments notice. she's genuinely proud of him when he proves his skill. she's also disappointed and furious when he doesn't meet her expectations. they're both so single-minded in their goals. their bond sours, and they both snap. they both have specific ideas in their heads of who the other is, and a lot of those ideas are oversimplified and originated from both of them kind of projecting onto the other (more on that later). he feels comfortable enough to scream insults at a goddess, and she leaves him without harming him. that's really interesting to me.

"my life has one mission: create the greatest warrior." "(what do you live for?) Penelope." i love characters who are single-minded in their goals. i love when there's conflict between characters like that. i love when there's bitter understanding between characters like that. i love when there's both at once.

i also think their dynamic adds an interesting perspective to the narrative about gods and mortals. because, for a while, they let themselves believe that they understood each other.

and Epic primarily focuses on the blurring lines between man vs monster. but if we throw the gods into the mix as a separate category, we get a triangle where each line blurs at different points in the story. and each point on that triangle has its own tragic aspect to it.

the isolation that is inherent to godhood. the grief that is inherent to humanity. the insatiable hunger that is inherent to monsters.

and Odysseus cannot understand that kind of isolation. and Athena cannot understand that kind of grief. and the reason they both feel betrayed is because they let themselves believe they could both understand. it's their pride, they're warriors of the mind, they don't want to believe that this is beyond their capabilities.

mortal grief vs immortal isolation. "unlike you, every time someone dies, i'm left to deal with the strain." vs "since you claim you're so much wiser, why's your life spent all alone?"

"i am neither man nor mythical" takes on an interesting meaning with this concept. you can try to blur those lines in hopes of avoiding tragedy, and you may succeed, but the end result won't be in your favor. something about getting the worst of both worlds.

and back to the thing about them both projecting onto each other. "have you forgotten to turn off your heart? this is not you." i love the phrasing. because it seems to me that she's characterizing Odysseus in the same way she would characterize a fellow deity. because she knows what he's capable of, she knows he can be great, but she's also simplifying some of his more complex motives. because gods aren't usually as contradictory as mortals are. they have to be at least somewhat representative of their domains. and on Odysseus's side, I think he often found himself…not quite forgetting that she was a goddess, but unconsciously starting to characterize her more similarly to a fellow mortal. and i think neither of them were aware that they, themselves, were doing this, but were aware that the other was doing this. and Athena thought it was interesting and somewhat amusing, and Odysseus thought it was interesting and somewhat flattering, until it suddenly stopped being any of those things and became infuriating for them both during My Goodbye.

and as for their dynamic post-Cyclops saga, i don't have a lot of thoughts yet. i do think the concept of god-monster-man all being categories that can blur into each other is pretty cool for a concept that i just thought of today. i like the idea of Odysseus trying so hard to leave behind his humanity (and therefore the grief and guilt) and become the monster (hungering for home and family and survival) that he ends up alone. just like he had accused Athena of being. "one day you might understand. one day, but not today. for after all, you're just a man." and now he understands. and now he's alone. and he's no longer just a man. and not only does he have a deeper understanding of the monsters, he has a deeper understanding of the gods, of Athena.

idk. i think their dynamic is really interesting and complex, and i'm really looking forward to Athena showing up again, because I feel like I don't have the most solid grasp on her character at the moment.

and also i really like all the concepts of Athena hanging out with Odysseus in owl form. I think that's really neat.

(i hope at least some of that makes sense, i've been typing for so long and my thoughts feel scrambled and incoherent.)

thanks for the ask!! hope you have a great day!! :)

[unluckyxse7en]

You know... there’s characters you relate to, characters you connect with.... and then there’s the fuckers who come after your entire mind body and soul like an animated callout post.

For me that’s Minami fucking Rena and I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little worked up over this concept.

[questionablygourmet]

Rewatch meta: mirrors, connections, and intrusion in Aperitif & Amuse-Bouche

This is the first of what is intended to be a series of analytical posts based on what sticks out to me as I do a close rewatch of the show, roughly 1-3 episodes at a time.  This first one will mainly focus on the introduction of major motifs and thematic elements in the show; future posts may follow in that vein or just whatever else about the episodes gets me thinking.

-------

One of the aspects of the show that makes it such a vibrant experience, and lends vibrancy in turn to analysis and transformative works in fandom is its rich use of motif in how it communicates what is important and what is going on with the characters and in the narrative.  The first two episodes are set up: they present to us the main characters along with the essentials of who they are, and they’re the opening sally of (some of) major themes and motifs.

Mirrors 

Okay, the first thing I’m going to talk about here is not actually the aspect that got it included in this section, but I must: right before our very first look at Hannibal Lecter, we pan up his table and see fruit on a platter, mirrored in the polished surface of the wood. The fruit was the first thing that caught my eye, because of course it did, pomegranates being a pervasive motif in the fandom, and it’s an interesting layout: there are strong mythological associations for pomegranate (Hades & Persephone, etc) and figs (Dionysus, etc).  Strawberries, somewhat less so; they are often associated with love, fertility, and/or new life, but in a less obvious-in-modern-pop-culture fashion.

So.  An aesthetically beautiful array of fruit as a perfect symbolic introduction to the character of Hannibal!  ... and then its mirror image in the shine of the table.  Mirrors/the concept of mirroring will become a huge Thing specifically between Hannibal and Will over the course of the series.  We also get “the mirrors in your mind can reflect the best of yourself, rather than the worst of someone else,” which honestly is a line that fascinates me in context of how, in seasons 2-3, the idea of Will and Hannibal blurring together, being mirror images to each other/two sides to a coin gets played with and explored.

The irony here is that Hannibal really does want Will to be his authentic self - yet by the end of the series, whatever it may or may not have been Before (”Before you, and after you”), Will’s authentic self is in many ways a sort of mirror to Hannibal.  An answer to the question of Hannibal, as much as Hannibal is an answer to the question of Will.

Connection

So the really obvious place this comes out in a big way is with the killer du jour for episode 2 - Stammets’s whole schtick is that he’s obsessed with creating gardens of physical connections between people in the form of his creepy (and GROSS, honestly this is the grossest episode in the show for me) mushroom graves.  

But really, this is also ultimately one of the deepest-running themes of the show.  It’s central to our Murder Husbands, both of them profoundly isolated from the rest of humanity until they find each other.  It’s front-and-center with Franklyn and Tobias, both wanting to reach out to Hannibal (and Franklyn also to Tobias), and him having none of it.  And it’s necessarily fundamental to all the other interpersonal relationships, in the explicit variation of how mutual a given connection between characters is (and often, the contrast in how each of them perceives that connection - “Could I ever have understood you?” “No.”).  

And it’s more subtly emphasized in these two episodes as we’re being introduced to and developing an understanding of how Will works as an investigator.  

“You make jumps you can’t explain.”  “The *evidence* explains.”  

“Associations come quickly.” 

I roll my eyes every single time Hannibal says “pure empathy” in the show because while, yes, Will has plenty of empathy, as he protests to Jack in the very first scene, the point is he has an active imagination, and applies it to the evidence.  Will is so good at what he does because he makes connections between general knowledge he has and details of the crime scenes that seem strange or even nonsensical to others.  Antler velvet in the wounds?  Well, what do I know about antler velvet?  And then that knowledge he has about it promoting healing probably later supports his assertion that the killer experiences some form of love for his victims.

(It didn’t seem to fit in well in the earlier section, but the mirror motif also comes into play with the Shrike case in that the first Copycat murder is a distorted reflection of what the Shrike does, for the purposes of making the essential elements of the Shrike murders stand out more starkly to Will.)

In the Stammets case, his mental reconstruction at the crime scene itself is literally just a review of what they’ve already been able to conclude from the physical evidence, plus the inference that it’s not important to the killer that his victims be aware that they were dying, which is a fairly obvious one to make given the lack of restraints.  Then, when they’re discussing it in the lab and cause of death has been determined, he’s able to do more with the information - he’s able to determine the how of the victims’ docile interment and from then it’s a quick series of fairly obvious jumps to who the killer must be.

Finally, the debut of the Ravenstag is the result of the sudden, vivid connection Will’s mind has made from the imagery of the Copycat scene - crows and a stag’s head, a murder and a message.  The Ravenstag will go on to embody the spectre of death, an omen, but also in some ways a guardian.

Intrusion

Hoo boy is this show ever about that, and these episodes certainly do get off to a running start on this theme.

First of all, just about everyone and everything intruding on Will.  There’s Jack in his classroom, there’s Hannibal in Jack’s office and then Will’s motel room, there’s Beverly in Elise Nichols’s room and then again (slightly less unwelcome) at the range, there’s Freddie Being Freddie, and then there’s his hallucinations. 

We explicitly discuss the intrusive nature in which Will experiences his work: 

“Fear is the price of imagination.”

“No forts in the bone arena of your skull for the things you love.”

And then we start to see the basis for Will’s trust in Hannibal start to form has Hannibal backs off in episode 2.  He lets Will roam about the mezzanine of his office (literally circling Hannibal, and part of me wanted to talk about lions because of that and the line with Franklyn, but that felt like stretching a bit too much) while he stays below, gives answers to the questions Will lobs back at him, becomes someone who will push just enough to show concern and interest, but will gracefully retreat into safer waters at the right moment rather than press for ever more.

It’s beautiful and infuriating to me that this is both the truth and the smokescreen for actions that make it also a farce - Will and Hannibal’s relationship is characterized both by a strong, genuine interpersonal courtesy and a staggering degree of intrusion (mostly by Hannibal, though Will has his moments), and these things can and do frequently exist fully side by side.  

The other notable single target of intrusion in these episodes is, of course, Hannibal.

Something I didn’t really consciously grok on my first couple of watchings of Jack and Hannibal’s first scene together is that while Jack is trying to flatter Hannibal rather than intimidate/command (as he was doing with Will), Jack is still being very nearly as pushy and invasive as he was in his first scene with Will: shows up unannounced, assumes Hannibal will make time for him without stating his purpose in being there (I love how visibly taken-aback he is when Hannibal tells him to wait in the damn waiting room), then wanders around Hannibal’s office and messes with his drawings while casually talking about Hannibal’s personal history before he ever gets around to The Point.  Yes, Hannibal’s eventually pleased as punch with the results of that visit, but Jack’s behavior is what it is. 

Then there’s Freddie (oh, Freddie), who will continue to be a wildly intrusive presence in his life over the next few years in various ways.  And then there’s Will, himself, pushing back when Hannibal asks questions in their office sessions - and who will ultimately be The One True Intrusion, the destabilizing element that will cause Hannibal to tear his life as he knows it to the ground.  

There are other ways this theme can be discussed in the context of these two episodes, but I’ve hit the main points I meant to and this has gotten lengthy enough already!

(Below the cut, for your potential amusement, a smattering of my notes from rewatching that didn’t necessarily make it into this.)

JACK DON'T TOUCH PEOPLE'S GLASSES

I will never get over the irony of "You have to convince yourself that the lion is not in the room.  When it is I assure you, you will know."

pURe EMpatHY

ahh yes, the Teleporting Cannibal Episode

"I'd rather not take it from you" - have to wonder how much Freddie remembered that statement later, as she was starting to wonder if Hannibal might be killing with Will

And here's our first mention of God enjoying killing.

[ganymedesclock]

Sally Acorn please.

Oh, we’re starting with something interesting, here.

favorite thing about them

Pulling mostly from SatAM, I’ll say- and I’ll say this as someone who’s really into the IDEA at least of Sonic and Amy- I think Sally is mechanically the most effective attempt to Give Sonic A Girlfriend.

A lot of this, I think, boils down to the fact that she’s an autonomous independent entity with her own life, motifs, role and basically just a lot going on outside of her interest in Sonic. It actually makes it feel like they meet each other in the middle, which adds some interesting subtext to the episode she’s replaced with a mechanical impersonator- in that, like... the doppelganger is characterized as very eager and reassuring to go along with basically anything Sonic or Tails tells her, and it increasingly sets Sonic’s hackles up because wouldn’t the real Sally have more to say than just blandly agreeing with him all the time, culminating in him bluffing her with the fake handshake.

Though definitely, I think the biggest thing that cements this for me is that of Sonic’s love interests, Sally, at an ultimate point in SatAM, actually takes a kind of ‘early installment weirdness’ super form right alongside Sonic- not the only way to do it, but firmly driving home this sense of, “Sally and Sonic work as a partnership because the two of them are full people who meet each other in the middle and match stride in several essential ways”. While I feel like it’d be potentially clunky to try and inject a version of Sally directly into gameverse, I feel like with Amy or with anyone else they’d potentially want to pair Sonic with, there’s things we can learn from SatAM and how it handled Sally.

least favorite thing about them

Well, again, going off SatAM- she falls into a few very well-worn and familiar pitfalls. SatAM is, in many ways, a good series for its time, but it’s also an older series, and, at least in more progressive media, we’ve done better with depictions of female characters. Some episodes and plots really do rely on her being “the girlfriend” rather than playing to what I’ve already mentioned of her as her autonomous strengths. But that’s hardly Sally’s fault- it’s basically because she’s a girl at the hands of people who, at the worst of times, are not sure how to write girls outside of “the mom friend”. You can say the same thing for certain depictions of Amy, really.

This is more of a petty bit, but I feel like her more muted and earthy color scheme makes Sonic stand out as a big weirdo in SatAM- if we were adapting her to a more Sega-ized property, I feel like it’d be important to swap out her palette of muted browns and single shock of red hair for something more cohesive and colorful. Maybe just giving her more reds to play with.

favorite line

With all due respect I’m gonna skip this and a few others because I’m really not that versed in Sally! Part of this is I’m only so-so in my SatAM knowledge 

brOTP

Even though I griped about her being sort of shoehorned in ‘mom friend’ status on occasion I thought there was something actually really charming about her dynamic with Tails in SatAM. That depiction of Sonic and Sally do scan as ‘older’ and frankly the dynamic of people who (to me) read as a couple of late teens/early twentysomethings taking care of an especially vulnerable and young character, in a relationship that toes a fond line between ‘kid brother’ and ‘adopted child’ is a really interesting angle to potentially explore.

OTP

Well, seeing how much I gushed about her relationship with Sonic at its better moments... (doesn’t help that I’m not really a fan of how a lot of Sally’s other love interests, introduced Archie side or SatAM itself, seem to be about creating ~romance drama~ rather than fleshing out her character or contemplating her options, though part of that could be I just haven’t cracked enough issues of, say, Monkey Khan to get attached to the character)

nOTP

The above withstanding, I don’t think I’d flatter any of those other dalliances by really saying I hate the sight of them. Again, just. not enough exposure.

random headcanon

unpopular opinion

Don’t know how actually spicy this take is, but- I really feel like, when it comes to ships that aren’t genuinely upsetting in their content (by which I mean, there are serious, unrelated to “I don’t like it” reasons to oppose it, e.g. it’s incestuous) there is like... really no reason to hate Amy because you wish Sonic was with Sally or vice versa. Frankly personally I don’t know how badly Sonic actually “needs a girlfriend”- if anything, I feel like the chemistry of any potential love interest would improve a lot if she was just overwhelmingly doing her own thing and every now and then she and Sonic hung out and maybe had some soft moments between them.

song i associate with them

favorite picture of them

[gaydadreigen]

Okay so, because many Otayuri shippers dont seem to understand why the relationship is unhealthy I'll share something. I'm 15, turning 16 very soon (3 months), and I was in a sort of relationship with an 18 year old. The power dynamic was so obviously bad. Like its just not okay! He was lowkey pressuring me to do sexual studf. Which i never did

Yikes I'm so sorry you had to go through that. My first boyfriend in college was 21 when I had just turned 18 and even though that's not really a bad age gap in principle and definitely not on the same level as dating an adult when you're a teen, the differences in where we were in our lives (as a brand new freshman vs a junior with a job, an apartment and an established friend group) really made our relationship very one-sided and ultimately was really bad for me.I feel like adults often forget how much of a difference one or two years makes when you're a kid. Like I work with high schoolers on a regular basis and the difference between freshmen and seniors is staggering?The fact is a relationship can still be unhealthy without it being abusive. Your older partner can be kind and caring and treat you well but still not be good for you. For one thing, younger teens dating older teens are often super socially isolated, because either you only hang out with them or they bring you into their older social circle as an outsider; an adult isn't going to want to hang out with kids, and that's ultimately going to end up isolating you and your relationship from your friends who are your age. Plus, here's the thing, you may find it flattering that an older person is interested in you but the fact of the matter is if they're interested in dating teenagers.... they're a loser at best and a huge creep who wants to take advantage of younger people at worst. Like maybe dating an 18yo at 15 makes you cool but that 18yo? Sorry but they're a loser, if they weren't they would be able to date someone their own age (and really, you can't flatter yourself that you're just better than every other 18yo out there).Every single person I know who was in a relationship with an older teen/adult as a young teen was incredibly messed up by it, boys and girls alike. You can't just act like these things are harmless to play with as long as you keep it within the realm of fantasy when there are literally children in this fandom who are watching you and parroting your ideas and behavior. I see 15yos defending o/tayuri and it makes me so sad, like that is literally how this stuff becomes normalized and these immature-ass adults who sit here insisting that their actions don't have consequences are the ones doing it. A 15yo doesn't know better but a 20+yo? You know damn well that what you're doing is inappropriate and frankly it's super weird that you would even look at a teenage character and think "yeah, I wanna think about /that/ one getting it on!" Like even if you then age him up to make it "ok," the original sentiment remains the same. Why are you doing that, especially when there are characters with more screentime, better characterization and an actual canon, well-written and fleshed out relationship to focus on? Like I can literally see no reason other than that you want to fixate on the unhealthy elements and that's so fucked up.