#especially since it's the arc we finally learns about Nea

[icharchivist]

and let’s not forget how the Jasdevi song reflects so well on the Campbell twins as well!

Checking multiple translations because, as often with dgm, the translations are all over the place but

Long Long Ago/Once upon a time comes back as well, giving the impression of the time that passes.

There was one cradle: the Earl Body/Suit There was one inside the cradle: The Earl before he split The one became two/became a twin: The Earl splitting into Mana and Nea

Then only one cradle, the other, like a star lost in the fog: Mana, alone, now that Nea has “died”, was “lost” where no one could find him

Shaking in a graveyard until it disappeared/a star shining bright at the sacred place and disappear: Once again can echo the “death” of the “other twin”, disappearing because of death. Could be about Nea.  Or could be about how Mana himself also came to disappear since he’s the one associated with a crooked grave in a graveyard, and having faded away into a “star” (Allen’s pentacle)

WITH the irony that if we consider that both twins "disappeared" to be inside of Allen, Allen ends up being the "merged body", just like this song ends up merging Jasdero and Devit together.

If Nea was always supposed to be the Odd One Out, it means that “The Bond” was a Noah memory that existed before the Mana/Nea situation happened. Yet this one song the Jasdevi sing to merge together is thematically fully about Mana/Nea.

And we don’t know how Jasdevi came to be: were they two humans before the Noah gene awoke? Were they one that split into two? Were they two brothers, or were they two strangers who started to bond over their memory? 

Meanwhile we know for certain that their song fits Mana and Nea.

Food for thought!

Jasdero and Devit's bond more like whatever the hell Mana and Nea got going on tbh

Different personalities and bodies

Twins nonetheless

Both sets of twins end up as part of a single being when bonded together tho(Jasdevi and the Earl)

[icharchivist]

Oh no I agree w/you on not being hard on fans who think differently. One of the reasons I like fan discussions is to read other people's thoughts and try to understand where the ones I disagree w/are coming from. That's just my personal view and reading of the character. I think lately the stress has been getting to Chaoji so he's extra harsh and that's going to be unattractive to Allen's friends. I also think he's wording things the wrong way. It'd be better if he said I'll fight the Noah -

2 instead of I'll fight Allen or telling Allen's friends to forget about him. In this way Chaoji is, whether he means to or not, making it sound like Allen is JUST a Noah. Which.... Is actually a interesting thought. What does the average person think how a Noah works? Does he think Allen is 100% gone now? *shrugs* Either way agree to disagree on some parts. I have no probs w/fans so forgive me if it sounded I was harsh to them. I was just naming of groups I saw and thought it was interesting.

Ahh alright, sorry then for the lecture! it’s fine, don’t worry now that it’s cleared up. 

I think i’m getting a little paranoid of some fandom arguments? especially when it starts to involve how some fans react to some controversial events. Bigger fandoms have been so filled with dramas (there had been a lot of push back against people liking not pure uwu characters that i get defensive at the idea of judging how someone may approach a controversial character they may like) i tend to end up having red flags over silly things i would probably have used myself a few years back. 

Your argument was fine, and honestly pretty mild in that term, i guess i’ve just had seen enough more virulent argument to be a little.. *alarms bells* upon reading some vague keywords. 

So my point is, my bad, i’ve got a little defensive there and judged your ask too harshly. I apologize.

Now back to the topic, yeah agreed on Chaoji. I honestly think Chaoji doesn’t know what details makes a Noah? I mean, the Order didn’t know before Road made her introduction and the Bookmen had to explain to them a few things. No one knows what it is like to turn into a Noah, no one knows about the awakened memories, and hell, the 14th is already a specific sort of Noah (i say it with all the love, but Nea isn’t a Noah Memory like Joyd is, he’s a parasite inside Allen’s body: his own being, not a memory that awoke in Allen, so even that when you know Noah’s development logic, is weird)

Chaoji didn’t become an exorcist until after the Ark’s arc and no one had any reasons too explain to that random crew man who was just helping carrying Lenalee around what little secrets they had learn about the Noah. So I think Chaoji still sees them as “they control the Akuma, they are rotten to the core, and once they turn there’s no come back”, perhaps projecting what he knows of the Akuma (which in which case is true, once an akuma, the only thing you can do is kill them with innocence for salvation - no attempt to really save them. Which makes me think, Chaoji did know Chomesuke- i think he wasn’t developped enough to have a reaction to him, but the fact Chomesuke had to destroy himself bc he couldn’t resist to its nature anymore might have added to this argument that there is no salvation for Dark Matter). 

For Chaoji I really don’t think he had the time to know about Noah stuff, and everything we know about how Noah comes to be come from Noah’s POV, so not something the Order may know, let alone a stubborn exorcist who hates them by principle. Allen tends to extend his compassion to non-humans because in a way... if he had seen Mana as non human the moment he would have turned him as an Akuma i think Allen couldn’t have stand it. (also i ended up mixing up with FMA but that reminded me of how Ed refused to kill the armor guys in the Lab 5 even when they kept saying they weren’t human anymore, because if he did so it would just imply that his brother isn’t human either and that it’s his fault that it is like that. I think the same reasoning can be applied to Allen @ the Akuma and extend to the Noah as long as the Noah are on the “side” of the Akuma. Ironically though considering “Mana” ended up becoming a Noah. Well. Always was, but you get my point)

Meanwhile the only strong feeling we’ve seen from an exorcist @ the Noah for being a Noah, was Kanda saying that since they are humans (which Skinn repeated) then they could be killed. Which i personally always took as a reassurance on Kanda’s part of reclaiming his own humanity and Alma’s, since they were denied it as kids and perhaps the only thing that, after all the horrors Alma had done, that made him human was that Kanda could kill him. Kanda asserting the Noah’s humanity in order to convince himself that death is part of humanity would, if i’m correct, be a sort of projection to protect that memory and identity, the same way Allen projects on others. 

But for the others, Lenalee had never hesitated around the Noah, even upon meeting Road, she quickly fought back. Lavi has a bad experience with Noah but he’s neutral enough to care more about what Allen wants in the end (when Allen wants to rescue Tyki the whole thing is about “the guys at the Order will look badly at it but if you think it’s important...” and not “why you do want to rescue the guy i wanted to kill a few hours ago”)Then there’s mainly Krory with the twins (and Lenalee to an extend) and I think there was too much irritation going on about them being brats more than them being Noah that went on there. 

But from Chaoji’s point of view who knew nothing about them, had spent his life hating the dark matter for taking what he loved, he saw.... Well Tyki playing with Lavi’s grief and threatening Lenalee, before trapping them in the Ark and trying to kill Allen, he’s seen Skinn  attack everyone and they then left Kanda behind with him, he’s been here a huge chuck of the Jasdebi fight just to see the Twins being Absolute Disaster Making You Lose Faith In Anything They Ever Represent (And It Happens To Be The Noah This Time) (did i ever mention that i love those stupid twins? I love them. They’re so dumb.), Road destroying Lavi’s mind and torturing Allen into forcing him to destroy Lavi, and finally the Lullubel attack on the Order that killed a huge amount of people. And if we extend the timeline to when he could have caught up his next meeting with the Noah in the Alma arc made him KO, kidnapped Lavi and Bookman who are now thought dead, and Fiidora’s parasites tortured him when he was powerless to save Lavi and Bookman, which might add some feeling of guilt there by the by. 

Without understanding of the Noah he just saw... the sheer destruction they brought along with them.

So Allen saying “I might become a Noah and you will have to kill me” - well I think seeing how horrible the Noah had been up to this point was enough for Chaoji to think that if Allen became one, it would override all of the good qualities Allen had. After all he has never seen the Noah before they became Noah.

Tbh It makes me even wonder if being introducted to Tyki in his human form (and Road to her human form as well but it’s more minor than how they befriended Tyki before that) may have made more possible for Allen to want to try to see that humanity. Because he saw this humanity with how Tyki behaved with his friends. More than just... hearing about “Oh apparently he has friends” that Chaoji would have heard from Allen, Lavi and Krory’s reaction upon meeting Tyki again. 

In a way, the fact Krory also has this association adding to how much he cares for Allen to relativise the way “becoming a Noah” might affect Allen - in a way Chaoji cannot. Because Krory saw Tyki having seemingly meaningful friendships with humans so, becoming a Noah wouldn’t come out as completely monstruous for him a way someone who just know the Noah might. (that, and also how his love for Eliade was serious and might make him more willing to believe in that humanity, even if Eliade told him in the end that she was just using him. Krory didn’t know she was lying - but he might hold on to that feeling).

So adding to all of Chaoji’s unchecked prejudice, there is this complete unknown over people he had only known as cruel. He has never seen their humanity the way Lavi, Krory, Kanda and Allen has. Then again yeah it doesn’t excuse anything because Miranda and Lenalee for exemple are in the same situation having suffered first hand from tortures from, well, Road for exemple, but trusting Allen above all while just as much in the dark. Even if depending how much the infos Bookman gave came to Miranda and Lenalee before Chaoji joined the Exorcist Group.

So that ended up being a lot of rambling dkjhfd but my point is that therefore, Allen is the one to see the humanity of the Noah the most, Krory and Lavi has reason to at least know personally Tyki’s human side to doubt how the Noah’s cruelty works, Kanda had had how he met with Skinn to approach it, else every exorcists before Chaoji was recruited might have heard a bit from Bookman but that’s it. Any other sort of acknowledging this humanity would come with trusting Allen. Which Chaoji doesn’t. 

And no one knows what “becoming a Noah” is like. And while Chaoji wasn’t there and i’m certain Lveille lied, but Allen did have a swift change of behavior and personality at least twice in the Alma’s arc for everyone to see (when talking to the Earl + when Kanda stabbed him). Even Johnny saw that. A second hand retelling could just convince Chaoji “well perhaps he had no control and it doesn’t matter what kind of person he was - once a Noah, you become a monster” and that could be enough.

That was a lot of ramble i’m so sorry dkjhfd but yeah. It’s a mess. 

And it’s just... there’s no way Chaoji can know. All he could do would be to trust Allen. Even seeking for answers isn’t exactly a position Chaoji is in, even if it would be preferable if he did question what he thought so far (like the others do) rather than just thinking “yup, he’s a goner, i’ll fight him”

if that makes any sense kdjhfd

idk Chaoji’s perspective is kinda fascinating to me. I dislike that he has it and doesn’t question it, but it’s fascinating to see how being emotionally disconnected from every elements we have ended up caring about can make someone like this. It really shows the price of emotional investment for me to see how Chaoji behave. He’s kinda the Counter-audience in that regard. And that’s what makes him fascinating, for as much as i dislike him as a person ahah. 

[icharchivist]

With Lavi having a tragic fate (though that doesn't mean it'll be 100% depressing). I feel like when you compare Allen's story to Lavi's fears/own goals you can get the impression Allen is meant to be a role model to him. Most of the cast admires Allen, but Lavi always gets special focus it seems. Just like how Lavi's character development has probably been impacted the most by Allen. There's also the fact that Allen and Lavi are among the few who have a goal that's a mystery, hasn't been-

2 been achieved yet, many obstacles being presented in the way, tied heavily to the fate of humanity and both are/will struggle just how they want to accomplish their end goal when important figures (mentors) tell them otherwise. All we and they know about their goals are the basic. Allen: save humanity/akuma. Lavi: be Bookman. Other characters have goals too but none as complex or overreaching as their goals have been in the plot. Lenalee's is protect my world. Kanda's is find person then-

3 repay life debt to Allen. Pretty straightforward and personal. A lot of Lavi's fears have been addressed but not settled (except acknowledging he has a heart and will use it). His big fears have been not being good enough to be a bookman. Leaving behind people he cares about, having them judge him badly for it and having those closest to him die. Around the same time Allen was starting to feel stressed/misplaced in the Order. Lavi was getting secretly heartbroken over possibly leaving the -

4 Order and his friends behind. Now look at what's happened: Allen's been branded a traitor and is judged badly by most of the Order he risked his life for. All for following his beliefs. Allen left all his friendships behind to follow his sense of duty. Allen has already lost extremely important loved ones (Cross and Tim) and also thinks others close to him are dead (Link and Lavi). Been told by his mentor to give up his vow. Basically a lot of what Allen has gone through is what Lavi is most-

5 most afraid of happening to him. Allen told Cross in Nea's dream world that he would keep his vow until the end. Even if Nea takes him over completely then maybe Allen's determination will have inspired someone else (my ♡). That someone in particular might be Lavi. We don't know what the bookman purpose is. Only that it's tied to humanity's fate. It's possible Lavi will be forced to go through what no other Bookman has gone through before him. Since Allen is the Destroyer of Time it makes -

7 Lavi will most likely at least one of the ones to accompany Allen to the very end of his journey. It's what Bookman thought was the most important record to make and Lavi will have to succeed him in recording Allen. Afterall you could even see the 14th reveal as Bookman giving Lavi the responsibility of being Allen's main watcher (even Lavi seemed surprised Bookman wanted him to record Allen alone despite not having any idea about the 14th yet). All in all I feel like Lavi is definitely being-

8 set for a lot of suffering himself over his burdens. Allen is going to be his inspiration to keep moving forward (even leaving his friends behind) and define his own path while never swaying from his original goal. It just might be his ultimate test is watching Allen die for his vow (which I guess inside his mind world was the thing that broke him) but staying true to his own vow by recording history as it should. This being Allen's hope his death would at least inspire someone to not give -

9 up when they need it the most comes full circle. It'd be a neat sign of growth for Lavi to experience Allen's death. But instead of pretending he's fine or breaking down completely. Lavi would take courage and inspiration on how Allen lived and apply that to himself (of course I would be sad if Allen died. Would the fandom survive. I just don't know. =,(* )

Allen+ Lavi: Oh yeah another thing I forgot to mention. Both of them used to dislike humanity. Lavi because of all horrors he saw from all the wars. Allen because of how people abused him. The difference is that Lavi used his status as a way to feel above and better than humanity. Allen had nothing and still took inspiration from a kind dog and later Mana to latch onto any love no matter how bleak things were. To learn Allen chose love over hate even when he sees the akumas true selves was a -

2 big inspiration to care about people for Lavi. I guess before Allen, Lavi always assumed he had it worst and knew better. But then that became his first wake up call. Ecspecially when Allen used his pain to encourage others.

!!!!! oh boy. So one step at a time.

All of the development of the parallelism works perfectly. allen and Lavi had always had some elements of parallelisms and you’re completely right that those elements often served for Lavi to be inspired by Allen in a very distinct way.

Especially with now Allen’s situation now that we know Lavi’s storyline is coming.Like you say, just Allen’s situation as of now would cause a lot of burden for Lavi, and would the parallels continue, Lavi would have even more reasons to suffer. 

I honestly always thought Lavi’s “tragedy” would happen while fullifying his duty. I’ve always kinda thought Lavi will live on to see his friends die and be doomed to record their history, and I tend to believe that Allen might die in the end of the manga. Not that I want to though, ultimately i want Allen to survive, and there would be still way for Lavi to suffer from seeing Allen’s suffering. But it’s not something i’m excluding. If life or death is supposed to happen to the main four i’m really more inclined to believe Lavi will live and Allen will die. I just. Hope not.

(and no the fandom wouldn’t survive, or well, i would be crying for ever and never recover for certain)

That said, while Allen did indeed move forward to leave his friends behind, as his friends proved, they were ready to go out of lines and orders to support Allen. Part of Allen’s new journey is to finally accept the help he had been refusing the whole manga. And that’s a huge part of Allen’s character growth. We do focus a lot on his own determination and how it carries him forward but the story (and Hoshino by the by) often calls him out for being an hypocrite for taking everyone’s weight on his shoulders but never allowing anyone to help him.

The fact next chapter will be Allen finally opening up to Kanda in the purpose of allowing Kanda to help is huge. Allen may have given up everything but now he’s at a point whe’re he’s realizing that he cannot just pretend to handle everything alone and that his friends are here to back him up. 

If Allen’s determination is something inspiring to carry him forward, latest chapters had shown that he cannot do it on will alone. He had to cling to the thought of his friends and Johnny had to call him to ground him back in reality. Determination is all fine and good but it would all make it harder would Allen continue Alone. And I think that’s why the current arc is calling “A Search/A Call for Allen Walker” (the word used in Japanese can be used in both those terms, as a spiritual search and a calling, of people grabbing and looking for him). The Arc is about Calling Allen Back with the love of the people around him while he got lost to his own isolation. 

Even if Allen’s determination remains admirable even within the frame of the story, the story refuses the cynism of letting him deal with it completely alone. It is a flaw from Allen to keep pushing people away. And it’s why this arc is specifically about people “calling for him” to remind him that he’s not going through all of this alone and cannot expect to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders.

If parallelisms with Lavi continue i don’t think Lavi will therefore cut out everyone to carry on his goal, because Allen is the proof of finally letting people in after for ever to focus still on his own goal. That the plot had been Condemning Allen for doing exactly that. 

Hoshino had always said that what she wanted to explore within DGM was how she viewed Love. From the themes of compassions and understanding, as well as her calling Allen a hypocrite, I don’t see her go for something as cynical as Lavi sacrificing his bounds with others in order to move forward.

I believe Lavi’s tragedy would just work also by allowing the Story he lives to hurt him and to stop thinking he can live free of hurt as long as he doesn’t care. To quote wtnv “Are we living a life that is safe from harm? Of course not. We never are. But that’s not the right question. The question is are we living a life that is worth the harm?”Lavi is convinced that if he doesn’t feel for people, there will be no harm coming from it. Therefore he’s taken aback and panicking when he realizes he’s getting harmed by it because he has never learnt how to handle it. Lavi’s journey would be imo to embrace that this harm is meant to happen. That he isn’t “living free of it” as long as he ignores those bounds. And that would be tragic enough for his own character arc.

I believe there are more growth possible for Lavi’s tragedy than doing just that, that pretending to live on too. 

So while i see what you propose as a possibility i truly believe that Allen isn’t a rolemodel for how much he is isolating himself for his goal, and would Lavi see it as such, he would only get more suffering from it. 

Besides if Allen is currently learning he cannot handle everything alone for ever now before seeing back Lavi, it might prepare Allen to handle Lavi in a similar crisis and manage to walk him out of it, with a side of “I’ve done the same, pushing people away thinking it’ll bring me closer to my goal, but it only caused more harm. Lavi, don’t do that to yourself either”. 

Allen had been Lavi’s inspiration to feel emotions again.  Not just in term of his goal, even if the parallelisms are there, but in term of profound emotions and compassion. And I doubt Lavi would overlook that in a character development arc.

and you are entierely right on the other parallelism about them hating humanity, but it’s also fuel on what i’m meaning too, of learning to let the emotions in and compassion toward humanity and others - and this compassion as Allen is learning, isn’t something that can only be one-sided, whenever he wants it or not, and that rejecting it when it comes to yourself isn’t healthy.

To me... Allen had always been about how much he pushed himself to help everything and everyone to the point of neglecting his issue until they started to blow up of proportion, and instead of reaching for help, Allen rushed out of it and isolated himself to not impose it on others, to not hurt them in the process. And Allen is currently learning that he should actually let people in, let people help him. And to me it’s one of the strongest message that plays off Allen’s greatest flaw of handling everything on his own.

I just can’t see this message go into deaf ears when it comes to others characters looking up to Allen.

Idk if it makes sense...? Hope it does.

Take care!