#esp re: lxc and wwx

[thatswhatsushesaid]

op i don't think jin guangyao is emotionally detached at any point in the story, but i do think he has to play his cards extremely close to his chest, because there is exactly one person in his life he knows he can trust and rely on to put him first and keep him alive, and that's himself. but i think it's also telling that he is the type of person to stay behind on the battlefield after the fighting has come to an end to help the commoners:

[...] Nie MingJue continued, “The more these people talked drivel behind your back, the harder you’re going to work to have them speechless. I’ve seen you on the battlefield. Everytime, you’re on the foremost lines and stay behind to help with the commoners in the end. Well done. Keep it up.”

- EXR translation, pg 470 (bold emphasis mine)

i'm specifically drawing attention to nie mingjue's statement here because for him, meng yao's conduct on the battlefield isn't hearsay: he's seen it with his own eyes. meng yao bravely puts himself in danger for the sunshot campaign's forces despite probably not even possessing a golden core at this point in the story, and he stays behind afterwards to help the commoners who are undeniably being caught in the crossfire of this war. bear in mind that this is also how he met qin su! he saved her during the war! [ch 47]

i think it's tempting to see this action on meng yao's part and go "well he's just trying to curry favour so he can win his father's approval," but 1) we know that the cultivation sects by and large just... do not give a fuck about the common people, particularly not jin guangshan, whose favour meng yao is understandably trying to court, and 2) the temptation to respond this way is a direct reflection of the cultivation world's opinions of meng yao, too. i think that should always be challenged, especially given what the text has also shown us about the value of jin guangyao's watchtower project to the common people. rather than fumble through the pages looking for the chapter i was thinking of, i'll just drop a link to one of @xiyao-feels' posts on this subject. they've written a LOT of really detailed meta (with citations!) about the watchtower project, i'd really recommend taking a gander at their stuff.

anyway my whole point here is that there is generous textual support for jin guangyao being motivated to help others simply because it is the right thing to do, and he wants to be the type of person who does good things. so bearing all that in mind, while i agree that he could not have known how important lan xichen would become to him when he chooses to save him from the wen, his motivation for saving him, and then continuously risking his own life to keep him safely hidden, doesn't have to be that complicated.

---

this post has been added to my dreamwidth meta archive here: https://thatswhatsushewrote.dreamwidth.org/6044.html

i see so many mdzs takes that are 'x character HATES y character' 'x character likes y character'

this story took place over 20 years i promise none of these characters kept the same opinions of each other the entire time.

lan wangji probably felt slightly more positive towards jiang cheng during ssc when jc was working so hard to find wwx. nie mingjue's opinion of jin guangyao fluctuated intensely over the course of the story. lan xichen had a very gradual shift from liking wei wuxian/wanting him to befriend lan wangji to nearly if not completely detesting him. jin guangyao almost certainly did not anticipate caring for lan xichen as much as he did by the end.

lan qiren never changes though. mf is a wwx hater through and through. love that guy

(whenever i make these analysis posts im talking about the novel, i recognize cql likely has different implications)

[plan-d-to-i]

About the "no excessive emotion" thing, like maybe it sounds weird to people but i get the rule, well more than a to be abided rule i think it's more of a self discipline thing. No excessive emotion ≠ no emotion. It's just that emotions controls action. Letting grief, anger, regret ect take over you is dangerous. And it's important to learn how to control those emotions. If a "rule" like that teaches you that than it's not a bad thing. No one in lan clan got punished for being happy. And neither did anyone got punished for being sad. That rule i feel like is just to make sure lan sect people keeps in touch with themselves.

About Lan's eating habit, cloud recesses is a cold place. Like it's in a mountain in middle of mountains, it's called the house of clouds ffs, anyone who lives in those places will tell you how easy it is get a running nose and low blood pressure. Drinking warm soup with medicinal plants keeps your body warm and metabolism strong. It's not just "bland" food it's their staple food habits. Like you mentioned lan people does eat meat because the juniors ate chicken with no problems. But yeah the warm herb soup makes sense to me.

Cloud recesses takes up guest disciples, meaning they are responsible for their betterment for the days they stays their, imagine drunk people fighting and causing unrecoverable harm on each other. Who will be responsible and liable? Lan sect. So the no alcohol SPECIALLY makes sense to me. I would have never thought that the rule wall is so controversial among the fandom when it made 100% sense to me 乁( •_• )ㄏ

I completely agree.

No excessive emotion is important, esp for cultivators! And it works in dire situations. Like when LXC is upset with WWX at the Guanyin temple Re: LWJ, LXC works to bring his anger under control! And it's not on WWX because he doesn't know about what happened at Nightless City, and it's not on LXC, bc LXC doesn't know WWX doesn't know about what happened at Nightless City, but the potential is so high for everything to go wrong! It doesn't in large part because LXC doesn't shut off communication. LQR too at the second siege is fuming to see LWJ w WWX but he keeps his shit under control and listens.

At this point I get all the Lan Clan rules to be honest. Most people need things clearly outlined for them because few know how to behave otherwise.

[bewareof12metersfrogs]

Warning: long rant. Probably messed up grammar. Not LXC-friendly.

So Pinterest gave me this:

And I was like

Ah yes, Lan Xichen.

I mean, I love that guy, but oh gosh that man is BLIND. Like, man's so blind Xue Yang could use him to slaughter people.

(I'm so sorry for that joke)

I really loved him when I first read the book, esp pre-Nightless City, but then I read it for the second (and third) time and that love turned into "uhh, I guess I kinda like him?"

I mean, in Sunshot Campaign arc, NMJ just got freaking tortured. He just got beaten, made to watch his men die, and his former deputy "betrayed" him -- and then LXC was just like, "oh da-ge CALM down, this is all part of OUR plan, A-Yao's our spy lol put Baxia away don't shout at him smh"

Why didn't LXC say to NMJ that the whole thing had been orchestrated? Okay, I get it, maybe he couldn't risk JGY getting caught, but couldn't he just tell NMJ, "hey, this is the plan. You're gonna get caught at Yangquan by WRH and our spy will take care of the rest of it" ? I'm pretty sure NMJ was angrier about his men getting slaughtered than himself getting beaten. NMJ is kinda like WWX; they were both idiots, but they cared about their people. Pretty sure he cared more about his men than himself. If he knew about the "plan", he'd most likely bring the disciples who were ready to die.

THEN LXC just went to NMJ like, "Hey let's be sworn brothers!". Xichen, dude, his wounds aren't even healed. I mean, it's a bit insensitive right?? I think it is. The whole sworn-brotherhood-right-after-shunshot-campaign thing still bothers me. To me, it seems like no one cared about NMJ. I mean, he was the leader of SC, people used his skills, his men, his everything, and then he was just, like, casted aside?? Pretty sure man's got PTSD. Also, qi deviation. Oh gosh I forgot about qi deviation.

Anyway, yeah, LXC was blind throughout the novel. I won't talk about the scene where Wangxian tried to tell him that A-Yao = bad, but I will talk about the scene where NHS decided to "use" his er-ge to kill his san-ge. Was it intentional? Perhaps. Was NHS lying? Maybe. Was it bad? Absolutely. Was it expected? Of course.

Let's put ourselves in NHS' shoes for a second. Your big bro, who is also the one who raised you and the only family you have left, died. People are quacking "oh it's the Nie curse, and isn't it such a tragedy?" BUT NO! One day you be minding your own business and then BAM you found out that da-ge'd been murdered and mutilated AND betrayed. So you started scheming for like a decade. Everything was going great, as great as a 10 years revenge plan could ever be. You just gotta wait for a few more hours, you just gotta listen to your nemesis' retelling his sad background story, you just gotta endure the pain of seeing your dead big bro wrecking havoc, and you'd have your revenge.

Then of course your er-ge, your big bro's best friend, gotta help your big bro's killer. He just gotta treat his wounds, huh? Pretty sure NHS was unstable. He was desperate and maybe even full of wrath. I understand that, at least, the same way I understand that maybe LXC tried to treat JGY's wounds because he still saw him as his brother -- he didn't want to lose another brother. But how about NHS? He was watching the man whom he thought was his brother treating the man who betrayed and murdered his actual brother. NHS was being a dick, yeah, but it was expected.

Think about this for a second. NMJ's corpse was still right there (and gosh, NHS had to sew his big bro's corpse by himself). NHS was RIGHT there, and LXC had the audacity to tend to JGY's wounds after the man himself admitted to his crimes. I think it's understandable if NHS felt at least insulted.

Also, he was perhaps sick of people not thinking that his big brother was as important as other people, that he was also a human being instead of just a war machine or even a mere tool that can be casted aside whenever they want to. Why did his brother have to die because of other people's greed and selfish decisions? Why did he have to lose the only family he had left forever and why did he have to just sit back and accept it?

Most importantly, LXC had been too blind for more than a decade too long.

Also, the bit about "You're Wangji's only mistake":

Bruh.

If WWX is LWJ's only mistake, then (trusting) LXC is NMJ's only mistake. I mean, sure, WWX is as dumb and oblivious as a rock, but can you really blame him?? HE WAS TRYING TO KEEP HIMSELF, HIS FAMILY, AND THE WEN REMNANTS ALIVE, DUDE'S GOT NO TIME TO THINK ABOUT FKING ROMANCE.

Sorry, I got carried away.

Anyway, are we just gonna ignore the fact that LWJ had been acting like he hated WWX since, like, the first time they met?? I mean, I really love LWJ, but his only mistake is his communication skills (or lack thereof).

But LWJ never gave up on WWX. He learned to express himself way better. Man's got dedication and he's not afraid to learn. I really love that about him.

Also, I understand that LXC was angry because LWJ took beatings to protect WWX, but I don't think he had the right to blame WWX for that. Yes, I know WWX did plenty of things wrong; he was extremely reckless and untrusting, but he never asked LWJ to protect him. LWJ did everything voluntarily. Ffs Xichen WWX didn't even know that LWJ did that. You know why? CAUSE HE WAS FKING DYING THAT'S WHY.

TLDR: LWJ was a grown ass man.

Okay. So, do I hate LXC? No. But do I find him flawed? Yes. But that's why I like MXTX's characters, including WRH, JGY, and LXC (the only exception are perhaps JGS and MXY's fam, and I think we all know why). They all have flaws. For me, LXC is too naive and blind, JGY is too power-hungry and selfish, and NMJ is too stubborn and unyielding. NHS? Well, he's a lot of things. He's manipulative, unsympathetic, and IMO he's got a problem with obsession too. He and JGY are alike, in my opinion. The main difference is their goals: JGY seeks power, NHS seeks revenge.

Everyone has flaws. LWJ and WWX have flaws too; they're EXTREMELY flawed. Heck, even our lord and saviour Shijie also has flaws, as much as it hurts me to type that.

Then why do I get so worked up about LXC's flaws? Honestly I don't really know. Maybe it's because I'm tired of (almost) the entirety of fandom treating him like a god, maybe because I'm tired of people who treat NHS like the devil himself, or maybe because I'm disappointed in him. I mean, JGY's our main villain, but I still love him so much. Heck, I love him even more than I love LXC. Bruh, nowadays I even like WRH more. At least that guy is downright evil and he looks cool while doing whatever evil things WRH does (I'm talking about the novel and donghua mmkay).

Anyway, this is the end of my rant. I apologise if I'm offending you, this is just something that's been bothering me since the first time I re-read MDZS. This whole thing is like a plot bunny but instead of a "plot", the bunny is shaped like a "rant". This is a rant bunny. I need to get this outta my head. I've edited this thing like four times already because I keep finding errors and stuffs. I also added like two new paragraphs.

I'm sad now.

[fatalism-and-villainy]

@4amkatara re: this thread (it’s getting long to reblog):

ohh yes!! i agree so much w what you said abt prioritising the collective. i think him putting others’ needs before his own is partly based in trauma, but i also think there’s a difference between that happening in personal/esp. familial relationships, and him putting the collective over his personal needs as a leader. the first may feed into the second, but i don’t think prioritising the collective is necessarily bad or unhealthy. imo it’s the duty of a leader to do that!

Yeah, exactly. I think his relationship with LWJ is definitely the most, mmm... draining for him in that sense, because so much of that is him looking after LWJ’s emotional needs, including when they’re both still children (the LWJ-kneeling-in-the-snow scene definitely gives me the vibe of LXC having to put aside his own grief because LWJ is being a bit more... disruptive, about how he’s expressing that). So I think he’s definitely got some unhealthy inclinations when it comes to expressing needs of his own. But yeah, I just don’t think that acknowledging those needs in a healthier way is necessarily diametrically opposed with continuing to serve others in a more institutional way (as opposed to interpersonal). And i think taking up his duties again after being in seclusion would probably be good for him.  

 and even if prioritising the collective was unhealthy, i don’t think pulling a 180 and just saying fuck the collective is the way to deal w that. lwj does jump from extremes like that but i don’t think his repression and obedience -> extreme devotion and putting love over all else is really. good or healthy or even romantic? i can see the appeal but it’s just not really for me

OH MOOD. I get the appeal of LWJ’s single-minded undying love of WWX as a trope, but I personally get a bit uncomfortable when people emphasize that aspect of their relationship, because I think that LWJ’s “my boyfriend, right or wrong” attitude is in many ways just as maladaptive as his teenage rigidity about The Rules. (And I think a lot of that is based in his trauma around WWX dying, too.) I think that’s part of why I prefer LWJ staying with the Lan and finding a way to make the sect rules work for him without completely uncritically adhering to them, to LWJ just leaving his sect so he can spend his days wandering around with WWX. Because his upbringing and his values are important to him, and I don’t want him to just chuck those out the window for the sake of love. (Especially because part of what I like about wangxian is that they have very different lifestyles and approaches to things like values, and so much of their relationship - I want to say especially in CQL? - is about compromise and actively coming to an understanding of each other. And I prefer that aspect of them to “abandoning the rest of the world because all we need is each other.” And he’s also got the juniors! Whom he cares about and who are a good place to funnel his energy that is not WWX.

(This is also related to why I really want LWJ to make some other friends post-canon.)  

and oh!! not to write for ages lol but yeah he’s not like his mom in that sense! i was thinking more of what he saw of his mom, which we at least see in cql as her smiling and pretending everything’s fine even in a situation that, though lxc didn’t know the details of, could probably sense was not. ideal

which is partly why the thing w deprioritising himself is imo linked to his childhood with his personal relationships. the idea that that’s how he should act as a parental figure, esp. after madam lan is gone and lwj is still kneeling at her door waiting for her to come back, influences his relationship w lwj a lot imo where he tries to kinda imitate it w lwj (though the deprioritisation/always putting on a smile/etc is partly is just who lxc is and how he deals with the pressures placed on him)

Ohhh, yeah, that makes sense! And what’s so telling to me is the way he seems to present her not making a fuss as a positive thing to WWX - and while I’m sure he’s still aware of the tragedy behind it, and how she was kind of forced to behave that way by her situation, it still seems to have influenced a lot of his notions of virtue and good behaviour.

(And I feel like LWJ took the exact opposite lesson from it, given that he would not fake a smile for diplomacy if you paid him. Part of that is just how his face is, but he also has zero interest in placating people he does not care for or respect.)

[crossdressingdeath]

RE Nightless City LXC pov I think I read the same one. Definitely emphasized that WWX was really into 'the slaughter'. If I'mthinking of the same post, the op has some good LXC content but meta that frames WWX and/or LWJ REAL poorly. One take i saw was that LWJ was being super selfish for not staying around with LXC after Guanyin temple and going with WWX esp since LXC visited while LWJ healed from being whipped.Ended up unfollowing cause I kept getting bothered by their metas :/

Ah yes, LWJ is selfish for wanting to... *checks notes* travel with his lover in order to elope and make his lover his husband and enjoy their honeymoon after said husband was dead for thirteen years in order to hang around being entirely unable to help his brother when his brother is explicitly happy that LWJ is leaving with his husband and feeling free to live his own life instead of feeling trapped in the Cloud Recesses by LXC’s grief. Great take, that one. It’s not like forcing the person he cares for most in the world to hang around and watch him suffer while being entirely unable to do anything to help him and knowing said person has just gotten the one thing he wanted more than anything but not giving him the freedom to enjoy it would be both incredibly OOC and downright cruel for LXC to do or anything.

And like... really into the slaughter? WWX was only conscious in the most general ‘not on the ground’ sense, he wasn’t even aware of the slaughter! How do you look at a man going mad with grief and guilt to the point where he completely loses control of everything and think “Oh yeah, that guy is really enjoying killing people”?