#egwene i can only think of things specific to the tower

[ofthebrownajah]

I've been wondering about something. So you know how in the books it's the three ta'veren that are essential to the Dragon winning at the last battle? So Rand obviously has all the prophecies about him. But Mat and Perrin are also mentioned in the prophecies. The Wolf King and the fox that makes the ravens fly. Showwise they made Nynaeve and Egwene ta'veren too so will they have prophecies about them now? And if so, what might they be? 🤔

[moghedien]

here's my conspiracy theory. not exactly what I actually think is gonna happen, but something I thought of that makes me go "hmmm" nonetheless. book spoilers btw

so Moiraine's "death" has been pretty heavily foreshadowed to the point where I wouldn't even call it foreshadowing but something they straight up said was going to happen.

that makes me suspicious that this definitely won't happen in the finale. maybe next season we'll get a doorway or an actual death, but I feel like its the most obvious bait and switch that could be being set up here

and we haven't seen Lanfear in person, we don't know what she's doing. we don't know what her goals are outside of being Egwene's sleep paralysis demon. She has been in everyone's dreams though. We know specifically that she's been in Egwene's dreams. She's been in Moiraine's dreams. She's been in Rand's dreams. She's been in Liandrin's dreams. Probably more than that too.

and if she was in Moiraine and Liandrin's dreams specifically then she might know some things about the tower. She might know about relatinships. She might know the politics. And by might I mean she almost certainly does. and she clearly has interest in at least sabotaging the Black Ajah based on her interaction with Liandrin, though I guess she might not have been actually trying to sabotage them. She might be trying to use them. And if nothing else, she learned that the orders were coming from Ishamael and the orders aren't coming in anymore and other Forsaken are probably trying to fill that hole.

so my conspiracy theory is that all of the Moiraine vs. Lanfear for this season is a bait and switch. Lanfear wants Rand. She wants to manipulate Moiraine. She wants to stop Moiraine from manipulating Rand. She wants to have control over every resource she can manage. So she distracts Moiraine. She makes herself out to be a threat or an ally or both while never even actually being there. She lets it build all the way to a "final" confrontation where she might actually show up in person because by now she's got the parts she needed moving on their own. The coup happens. The Black Ajah has a great deal of power with Alviarin as #2 whispering in Elaida's ear. The tower is in chaos. The tower that was previously being held together by Moiraine's lover is in chaos. Moiraine's lover is deposes. Moiraine's only collaborator and the one that was supposed to bring all of this together for her is no longer there and Moiraine was too busy worrying about her own neck getting slit by Lanfear to even consider the hands that Lanfear might be playing elsewhere, behind her back, that specifically target and destablize everything she's built and everything she cared about and what was supposed to see her plans done once she's gone. Now she's not gone and the plans and schemes are in shambles.

and remember that even if Siuan doesn't die in the coup (which she better fucking not), Moiraine went through the doorway in book 5 thinking that Siuan was dead

[butterflydm]

Additional 3x05 thoughts

Spoilers through 3x05 of the show and through A Memory of Light in the books.

It does crack me up how Egwene INSTANTLY breaks her word to the Wise Ones. You've had a single night of training, girl! I mean, also very book canon - promising that she isn't going to mess around by herself in the dream only to proceed to do it constantly is fully book canon. That plus the fact that she is definitely letting them believe she's full Aes Sedai like she did in the books does make me think she's going to need to 'meet her toh' to the Wise Ones before she parts from them, like she does in the books.

We really do need 3x06 to fully judge the fallout of the Randgwene breakup but right now it's the only plotline that I'm like "idk if this is a change that improves the books". It's certainly more High Drama than an amicable parting would be, but in a way that can potentially flatten both Egwene and Rand in the eyes of viewers - Egwene by turning her into a symbol of a Perfect Woman Done Wrong; and Rand into a symbol of Cheating Man Never To Be Trusted.

Avirand continues to be perfection (which is why I'm trying to be "okay okay let the show cook" over Randgwene's break-up, because all of the Rand & Aviendha scenes; and our two Rand & Elayne scenes, were so wonderful).

I do want to rewatch the Moiraine & Siuan scene, for sure (I mean, I'll rewatch the whole thing this weekend lol), because I was getting "shit maybe they ARE killing off Siuan and/or Moiraine for real" vibes from how much closure the two of them got, but it could be foreshadowing for a long separation because of Moiraine moving to Finnland. Moiraine specifically saying that she's (Moiraine) not at the Last Battle, though...

Delaying the vote in the Hall because Siuan and Elaida have (temporarily) come to terms with each other really worked. I liked everything in the White Tower plotline.

Alanna and Maksim's plotline really got to me! Their mutual but clashing grief over Ihvon, and how they finally come back to each other at the end. <3

Perrin's plotline also really worked to cement Faile as someone that he cares about -- her insisting on coming with, and being a key part of saving him (and the shot of the two of them near the end of their scene in the Whitecloak camp reminded me, framing-wise, of Rand & Elayne's first meeting. Can't explain why. Vibes).

Everything with the Sea Folk ship plotline was great. I finally got the conversation between Min & Mat that I wanted in the previous episodes, where Mat mentions the vision of him stabbing Rand! I loved Elayne & Nynaeve learning about the Sea Folk. <3

And Elayne still wistfully thinking of Aviendha even as we're hearing Aviendha talk about how she doesn't get how monogamous relationships can even function and how you need more than one partner -- all of that feels like a great set-up for future Avirandlayne.

So, yeah, the only part I'm like... idk if I feel like this change works is the Randgwene stuff. Both Josha and Maddy talked in interviews in ways that implied that we would actually be getting broken-up Randgwene growing into being post-breakup friends, but with such a High Drama ending between them and only one episode afterwards (since 3x07 is a full Perrin/Two Rivers episode), it's hard to see how we get there. Their breakup in the books doesn't have a "bad guy" so I'm kinda sad that it feels like Rand is gonna be the "bad guy" in their breakup in the show.

[markantonys]

i am capital S Shook that the irish red sitter is none other than galina!! i would never have predicted that! since galina only does One Thing in the books, i was sure she was a prime candidate for being absorbed by somebody else; my theory had been that elaida would lead rand's kidnapping personally to give elaida something more to do during midseries when she's not up to much in the books, in part so as not to sideline shohreh. but maybe it's actually preferable to shohreh to only have a main role in her first and last seasons and more of a guest/recurring role in the seasons in between, or maybe they'll bulk up elaida's storyline inside the tower and with alviarin in order to increase elaida's presence during the time between the coup and egwene's kidnapping.

anyway! at the time of watching the cold open i was like "man i wish i was watching this on regular prime x-ray so i could see the names of all the characters in the scene in case these new aes sedai are anyone i would know", but now i'm glad that i didn't find out this was galina until a week later. i liked her! i thought she had a cool vibe! i now feel betrayed (in a good way) to know this is galina! once again wotshow getting an impeccable record in managing to make the antagonists likable even when we know how decisively unlikable their book counterparts are. a very different viewing experience for me than if i'd known straight off this was galina and had therefore gone "oh i've got my eye on you" the second she arrived!

this revelation also increases my hopes that my girl tsutama survived. before, i'd thought that they were two relatively minor reds who might only be needed for this one scene and that their odds of having survived the hallway battle weren't good, especially since we do see red figures dead/unconscious on the floor afterwards. now, i'm certain galina had to have survived because if she was only a random character who's in one scene and dies immediately, they would never have chosen such a loaded name for the character; she's got to be alive. and in turn, tsutama got markedly more focus than galina did in this scene (more lines, more closeup shots), which would be an odd choice if galina is the only one who goes on to become a notable character and tsutama is never seen again after this scene, so i think this is good news for tsutama too. and having tsutama around longer would be a good counterbalance to show that, truly, there ARE some reds who aren't secretly black ajah!

exciting stuff! i have to say, you all know my hatred of WOT Minor Characters and the space they take up, i'm famous for it, but the show continues to do incredibly well at getting even me, their biggest hater, interested and invested in the minor characters. from the moment tsutama and galina arrived, i felt attached to them and wanted to see more of them! (i think being a visual medium also inherently helps with this, since it's easier to feel quick attachment when you have a face and not just a name.) i AM getting a bit "okay, maybe we should slow down" at the number of separate minor characters being introduced, but i trust rafe & co to know their limits and not go over the line with too many characters the way the books did (not least because they have budgetary constraints keeping them in check!). and tower politics is such an important thread throughout the entire series, and having a good number of Specific Aes Sedai We Know can only help with audience investment in that thread, especially since it's a thread that's so often separate from most of our main cast; it needs to include enough strong secondary characters to support it during the times when no primary characters are involved in it.

[megamuscle885-blog]

kinda fucked up how egwene destroyed the confidence and social standing (between themselves) of a woman whom she trusted and respected, to the point that nynaeve has a massive crisis of self-confidence that may have contributed to her being beaten by moghedien, the whole deal with birgitte, and her decision to take the group to salidar and hand over her responsibilities and the threat of the forsaken in tel'aran'rhiod (though smart) in the hands of strange aei sedai who might not even support rand.

all so egwene can avoid punishment by the aiel for dreamwalking when she shouldn't be, because they would cease teaching her as per their threat, and rightly so. iirc she only ever decides that she needs to apologize for misleading them on being a full aei sedai (which is a pretty fucked up thing when everyone assumes everything you say is the whole truth, though the fact that egwene helped rand blow shit up at cairhien should've clued the aiel in that she's not bound by the three oaths like all tower trained aei sedai, and I am certain moraine must've brought that up at least once.) and only ever gets punished for her specific toh in that moment.

it is never reconciled, never apologized for, never explained, and egwene belittles nynaeve twice for almost revealing to the wise ones that she's dreamwalking. i don't think they see eachother again until egwene is in salidar and she is then raised to amyrlin seat, and then egwene places special emphasis on nynaeve not undermining her while she leads the rebel aei sedai.

worse still is how egwene's brow beating worked in preventing nynaeve from figuring out that egwene is hiding something from the aiel wise ones, especially after the blowup from egwene in front of amys, who egwene should really trust with anything said in tel'aran'rhiod, and nynaeve and elayne, who already know she's dreamwalking into elaida's study. its really emphasized a little later when nynaeve gets to salidar and shows that she's an incredibly smart person when she's not being rode over and bullied, and figures out the entire scheme between siuan and leane, something they're keeping from the salidar aei sedai so they can continue to manipulate them, practically instantly.

fucked up. sorry if anyone likes egwene particularly and is defensive regarding her, i like her too and she has many redeeming qualities and as many amazing accomplishments, but this is one of the many things that she's never apologized for. it shows more and more that her story is about a complete abandonment of emond's field to become the most aei sedai she can be, and she's certainly adopted bullying and brow beating to get her way in a topic she knew she shouldn't have gotten her way, but valued knowledge acquired through any means necessary over her personal relationships. the aiel aren't spared here either. she ferrets out their secrets, pushes dangerously far beyond what they've taught her and almost damages her relationship with them too when it becomes impossible to continue the lie.

she doesn't even reveal that she's an accepted until she's no longer going to be in the wise one's camp to learn from them, summoned to salidar, at which point there's no real punishment she can suffer from them, short of death, since she'll have learnt everything she can out of them and won't be able to learn anymore anyway, and despite all her talk of acting like an aiel and fulfilling her toh, I seriously doubt she would've calmly accepted death as her punishment if that was what the wise ones decided, even though any other aiel apprentice would have.

anyway, I know I'm not doing a liveblog, I'm just re-reading the wheel of time books and I'm almost finished with the fires of heaven (book 5). wanted to get this thought out there.

[highladyluck]

Season 2, Episode 4 Liveblog

Teaser:

Selene is so sanguine about her entire livelihood going up in smoke! It’s almost like this has happened before

Werewolf Perrin rumors have been crushed!

The problem with the Forsaken Ski Chalet is that there’s a Myrdraal infestation in the basement

It is a personal insult that the subtitles just say [chanting] when Ishy is clearly dialing up Lanfear (also if anyone can overwrite the audio for this scene with the dial-up modem sound I want to see the clip)

DARK PROPHECY IS A GO

Awww she’s an amateur artist

Dollars to donuts that ‘older sister’ is an Aes Sedai

It has to be so painful coming back home

Selene is so sanguine about her entire livelihood going up in smoke! It’s almost like this has happened before

How long, Selene? Exactly how long has it been?

I’m gonna need fanart/fanfic of the Forsaken Ski Chalet up near Kinslayer’s Dagger

Awwwwwwwwwww

The Accepted sleeves look AWESOME I know I keep saying that but it’s true! They’re little embroidered ombre flames

Alanna is like ‘I don’t do therapy, I only do sex advice’

Hmmmmm, that doesn’t sound like stilling aftermath, another point in favor of ‘shielded’

It’s good that they are namedropping Cads this early; she came out of nowhere in the books.

DARK, Alanna. Also I bet I know what that change in Moiraine was; the timeframe is right for it to be when Gitara died & she got her quest.

Moiraine is on the case!

Ooooooooooooh this is going to be FUN

DAMN so that’s why she wanted that specific red wine. This feels very on par with the books- Moiraine a step behind but trying desperately to stay in the loop and get Rand what she thinks he needs

Moiraine, damn

Yeah, no point letting him destroy himself until all value has been extracted from him :/

Elayne like ‘she’s been promoted’ lmao she would think it was just that

Oh Egwene, you have not even begun to feel like shit

Ooooh someone gave Liandrin her marching orders

FORESHADOWING

Awww it’s Hopper! Hi Hopper

Werewolf Perrin rumors have been crushed! It’s ok he is a werewolf in my heart, the way Rand is a ghost in my heart and Mat is a vampire in my heart. And by ‘in my heart’ I mean ‘in the subtext’

Huh, interesting thing with the visions

Perrin like ‘excuse me, why did I not get an instruction manual and personal tutoring, this is a shitty apprenticeship so far’

None of the Tower’s fucking business honestly (this is also why info about the Power doesn’t get shared but whatever)

Lmao Selene you lie about more than that

Her face when Rand says ‘you’d be surprised’ lmao, that’s a Lanfear Face (TM)

Oh honey you haven’t even broken the world yet

“[dice rattling]” IT’S MY BOY!!!

Is Min gonna have Mat kidnapped by the Seanchan and taken to Falme? I am INTRIGUED

I’m glad the show explores the rift in families created by the long lives of Aes Sedai

Liandrin says ‘Rescue mission! You love a rescue mission!’

Alanna does not like Dark Prophecies written in blood, I guess?

Ooooh there’s that Damodred spirit (political maneuvering)

“This is my room.” - Elayne

“didn’t ask, don’t care” - Nyneave

Egwene no no no you already have enough trauma you don’t need to go to Falme

Uh oh, always a bad sign when Ishy shows up in your dreams (I love that the non-ta’veren are getting Ishy dreams!) also at this point it should be obv to everyone that Liandrin is bad news bears, even if you missed the lying

Oooooh interesting, what IS In Cairhein?

The problem with the Forsaken Ski Chalet is that there’s a Myrdraal infestation in the basement

Lmao like she didn’t know

Selene doesn’t know anything about being seen as a monster, nope

Oh ok that bit about her soul is great

Rand is vanilla

What the hell

Wow that is the most awkward thing I can imagine happening between Rand and Moiraine, you’re gonna give him a complex about… killing… women… I see

I cannot wait to see Lanfear do some horror movie shit

YEAH

AVI NEXT EP!!!

[apocalypticavolition]

Let's (re)Read The Great Hunt! Chapter 24: New Friends and Old Enemies

Spoiler alert: I don't know who made this. Eugene de Blaas definitely did most of the work, but I found this as a reblog of a now-dead account "laurientius" so... yeah. Also spoiler alert: My reread has spoilers for the entirety of the series. Don't keep reading if that's going to be a problem.

A second chapter in a row with the Flame of Tar Valon, which again is a reflection of us exploring the White Tower.

Egwene curtsied, then stuck out her tongue at the Accepted’s retreating back.

Egwene has a weird problem with authority sometimes. I suppose Pedra must have an unpleasantness in her voice, though we know from later on that she's not really that unpleasant.

“My name is Elayne,” she said. She tilted her head, studying Egwene. “And you are Egwene. From Emond’s Field, in the Two Rivers.” She said it as if it had some significance, but went right on anyway.

The significance is of course primarily that she's already met someone from the Two Rivers and not specifically that Egwene is her subject. Elayne's not awful like that.

Also: yay! Elayne!

From now on, you will be at training at this hour every day, as a matter of fact. From breakfast until High, then again from dinner to Trine. If you are especially quick or especially slow, they may take you from supper to Full, as well, but that is usually for more chores.

All the chores and training sounds like a particularly grueling schedule, though I suppose the average gal in this setting would probably find it relaxing since they'd be working all day at the farm or store anyway.

“You saw it around me?” she said excitedly. “I saw it around you. Sheriam Sedai said I would, eventually. This was the first time. For you, too?”

How can they not be fated to be bestest buds at this point? In a more sapphic novel this is the part where they'd kiss. Well, think about it anyway.

Abruptly Egwene found herself remembering a tale Rand had told, a tale she had not believed, about falling off a wall into a garden and meeting. . . . “You’re the Daughter-Heir of Andor,” she gasped.

Shoulda believed that poor boy.

“She keeps a willow switch on her desk. She says if you can’t learn to follow the rules in a civilized way, she will teach you another way. There are so many rules for novices, it is very hard not to break some of them,” she finished.

Elayne probably hasn't been spanked much before this. Considering the schoolgirl approach to the Tower training, the switch being present is probably some of the least eyebrow raising physical punishment we see in the series, but again it's important to note these things so we can discuss the more egregious examples later on.

But we are children. The Aes Sedai, the full sisters, are the grown women. The Accepted are the young women, old enough to be trusted without someone looking over their shoulders every moment. And novices are the children, to be protected and cared for, guided in the way they should go, and punished when they do what they should not.

In fairness to the Aes Sedai way of thinking here, novices are unlikely to be a tenth of the way through their natural lifespan at this point and Accepted only barely past that. The long life makes for longer periods of initiation.

Egwene, there are only forty novices in the Tower. Only forty, and no more than seven or eight will become Accepted.

Yeah those numbers are outright atrocious. Without change, the White Tower won't be able to last as an institution past the current number. By the time they've died of old age, there won't be enough Aes Sedai left just to train the new generation.

But the Tower will not . . . cannot . . . lower its standards.

Elayne is correcting herself here to be diplomatic, but she was right the first time, as Egwene shows. There's plenty of ways the Tower could have high standards without doing all the crap it does. And Sheriam badmouthing the current state of affairs is just so perfect. As a Black she's encouraging novices and accepted to despair at the current state of affairs while seeming to be arguing for something that would only hinder the Blacks and thus keep her above suspicion.

Elayne paused, and then said, “Is Rand well?” Egwene felt a sudden stab of jealousy—Elayne was very pretty—but over it came a stronger stab of fear.

Egwene just ain't used yet to Rand being off the table, but her heart's in the right place.

Anyway, I’ve not seen her since the day we arrived, with Whitecloaks dogging our trail. They are still camped on the Dragonmount side.

What delightful foreshadowing.

“Men,” Egwene muttered. “I dance a few dances with a nice boy, and Rand goes around looking like a dog with a sore tooth, but he—”

But he didn't dance with anyone and barely flirted except with Elayne. Calm down girl. Hypocrisy is your worst look.

The man rumbled a bitter laugh. “With two or three of you watching my every move? You’re just afraid I’ll find a knife.” At the look in the Accepted’s eyes, he laughed again. “For myself, woman. For myself. Lead me to your garden, and your watching eyes.”

Poor Logain. Elayne's quite wrong. At the moment he's less dangerous than most other men.

“Do they always have to be gentled?” she asked. Elayne stared at her, mouth agape, and she quickly added, “It is just that I’d think the Aes Sedai would find some other way to deal with them. Anaiya and Moiraine both said the greatest feats of the Age of Legends required men and women working together with the Power. I just thought they’d try to find a way.”

Good cover, Egwene. And honestly the kind of question that, even though you are asking it as a ruse, shows your potential and keen mind.

“I know you,” Egwene said. “You worked at the inn in Baerlon.” A light breeze riffled the water beneath the bridge, and graywings warbled in the trees of the garden.

You can see why people think Egwene should be ta'veren, though I'd say all these meetings are more about her being at the place that is the current fulcrum of the world than anything inherent to her.

She said I’d have to share my husband with two other women, and I’d never put up with that. She just laughs, and says it was never her idea of how to run things, either.

It's a little bit of a shame from a drama perspective that there's never any real fallout when Elayne realizes that Min knew she was one of the other two women all along. It's also sad for Min that it's quite clear she dislikes her destiny and never comes to terms with it.

“A white flame, and. . . . Oh, all sorts of things. I don’t know what it means.”

The White Flame is obviously the Amyrlin Seat itself - surprising no one makes this connection early. I expect she sees the lights she saw last book, more swallowed up now that Egwene is comparatively alone (though Elayne may be another person who has this image). She probably sees something about Gawyn in specific that she doesn't want to share in front of Elayne.

“One of the things she said she saw looking at me was a severed hand. Not mine, she says. She claims she does not know what it means, either.”

This would have been Rand's severed hand back when he was going to lose it by royal decree but I have no clue what it's about now. Maybe it's got something to do with the Band of the Red Hand?

She tried to settle herself, to think of Rand. He’s so . . . beautiful. She gave a jump, half afraid she had spoken aloud.

Galad's getting extra attention in this first meeting is probably an artifact of when he would have ended up with Egwene after Gawyn died. Still kinda works to subvert the first meeting of fated lovers kinda thing though.

I have met all sorts of people, and they’ve met Rand al’Thor. Some do not even know his name, but the description could not be anyone else, and he’s shifted every one of their lives. There was an old farmer who came to Caemlyn just to see Logain, when Logain was brought through on his way here; yet the farmer stayed to stand for Mother when the riots started. Because of a young man off to see the world, who made him think there was more to life than his farm.

We're going to hear a lot more about the lives Rand changes. It's funny that it's Gawyn who first really highlights it, considering how negative his obsession ends up being.

“We three are tied together,” Min said, “and we cannot let any man get in the way of that. Not even him.”

Min, when after this book is the next time you even see Egwene? Maybe in Caemlyn for a bit? You and she have almost less time together than you and Mat and that's saying an alarming amount.

“In Caemlyn, child, I am councilor to the Queen your mother, but this is the White Tower, and you, a novice.”

I mean yeah Elaida's being a bit stuck up here but is she wrong? I bet if Sheriam overheard Elayne not say "Sedai" to Elaida she'd have her horsewhipped before Elaida could get two words in. The whole point is to leave old connections behind, even if the Tower is hypocritical and wants the princesses it teaches to rise to power.

Behind them, Egwene heard the Aes Sedai begin, “I am given to understand, girl, that you were brought here by Moiraine Sedai.”

Does Min see the White Flame around Elaida? Does she see Fain? The vanity tower? The Black Ajah hunters? The a'dam?

She looked over her shoulder to make sure the Aes Sedai was not following her, but Elaida was nowhere in sight.

Dammit narrative I want my questions answered and here you are cutting in only when it's too late! It's frankly a bizarre choice at this point, as Min gets only the tiniest bit of POV and only to establish that she's pissed at Moiraine too. That could have been done in Egwene's perspective I think.

Next time: The House of the Rising Sun!

[liptonrm]

The summer got away from me and then I went camping for a couple days and now WoT season two is only, like, a day away! And I've still got 3 more episodes to rewatch!

Anyway, time to pop some bottles because it's episode six and Moiraine x Siuan is about to go canon.

Watching Siuan being forced to leave her father is heartbreaking.

There was an interesting meta about patriarchy and patriarchal violence in the Wheel of Time books and, while so many leaders are world leaders are women and the Aes Sedai, the most powerful people in that world, are all women, there's still a bunch of in-world gendered stereotypes and violence that seem to stem more from our world's sensibilities than that world's. Which, yes, I'm sure a bunch of it did come down to some of RJ's unconscious biases.

BUT the show is doing an interesting job of highlighting the push-pull of power and trust. In the last episode we had Liandrin talking about how little girls are still hurt, even though the Aes Sedai exist, like one doesn't negate the other. Also in that episode we had the Whitecloaks, through Eamon Valda, talking about how no one with that amount of power can be trusted, regardless of whether the power is corrupted or not.

Now we see tiny little Siuan being sent away, not because her father doesn't love and trust her, but because the people around her don't. If she's going to live, she has to leave. Which is just heartbreaking. No wonder so many Aes Sedai only trust their sisters in Saidar.

Practicing knots and practicing weaves. Basically the same thing, really.

He knows he'll never see his daughter again.

You ever think about how lucky we are that Rosamund Pike decided to champion this series? Because I do, every time I watch.

I want to think the costumers, productions designers, and VFX artists who made Tar Valon look so fucking cool.

Women in the Tower Guard is an excellent touch. Four for you, R2J2.

They're giving so much texture and depth to Logain. I love to see it.

Aaah, Liandrin grandstanding, throwing Moiraine under the bus. This scene is an excellent way to introduce Tower politics.

The Hall did not consent to be apart of Siuan and Moiraine's roleplay.

Though Liandrin's definitely enjoying it.

Oh man, it's the tea shop. Where's the meme, woman drinking tea, thinking about getting railed by Siuan Sanche.

Bless Rand's heart.

I'm really curious to see what the angle's gonna be re: Mat and the dagger in season two.

Moiraine really doesn't have the patience for Tower politics. I do not blame her.

Omg, I didn't remember that Maigan mentioned travelling to investigate the Seanchan. That's, ummmm, not a great idea.

Egwene is vicious and righteous. Perfection.

Plots within plots. Schemes within schemes.

Omg the way Moiraine smiles with Lan says "Giver her my love." She's so excited to see Siuan. 🥹🥰

I LOVE THEM SO MUCH. 🍾🍾🎉

The both started wearing whte and now Siuan is wearing Tairen paisley and Moiraine is in a matching wrap. Excellent touch.

🐡

Nynaeve not bowing and the way Egwene looks at her lololol.

The way that Nynaeve is terrified and barely holding it together and Egwene is ready to fight the world. Everyone making this show understood the assignment.

What color is the stone in Siuan's ring? It wasn't blue, but I couldn't tell what color it was. Maybe gold?

Seriously, the Hall did not consent to your roleplay.

The way their fingers touch while Moriaine swears the oath. 😢😭

And the way Moiraine changes the oath. 1) She so dramatic I love her. 2) So smart to swear to Siuan specifically. 3) They're definitely married now.

They're all so happy to see each other! My babies.

I know that Mat doesn't go with them because reasons but, you know, I really don't blame him. Just cut loose from unspeakable horror to venture back into it? Yeah, hard pass.

I do wonder how Mat's story in the finale would've gone, as originally planned.

I do really like that Egwene is the first of the EF5 to step into the Ways. She is so brave.

[big-dumb-himbo]

Roadtrip Time!!!

(My theories on how everyone travels to their big plot locations in season 3)

*contains book spoilers and spoilers for episode 1 of season 3 below the cut

In the books, everyone takes different methods of travel to get to their destinations. The only group’s whose is actually super plot relevant is the Two Rivers squad, who take the Ways and encounter Trollocs there.

So really all of them could fast travel to their destinations using the Ways and it wouldn’t really make a difference. Bing bam bomb *dusts off hands* done, problem solved. But I don’t think that’s what they’re gonna do and I wanted to get my theories out there for my own personal satisfaction of maybe guessing right later.

Roadtrip to the Two Rivers

I think Perrin and his squad will still use the Tar Valon Waygate to the Manetheran Waygate in the Mountains of Mist. This is the super plot relevant one as later they’ll need to run back to close it because Trollocs are using it to get to the Two Rivers (and we got that shot of Loial, Bain and Chiad running through the woods, probably to go close it).

I can see them leaving Tar Valon and Perrin thinking they’re going to just roadtrip it and then being surprised when Loial takes them to the Waygate. He’ll be like “???? We don’t have a channeler, we can’t use it” and Loial will tell him and us about the Avendesora leaf to get in without channeling.

So they’ll be the first group to get to their book plot and we’ll see some the Two Rivers plot in episode two (maybe Perrin rescues people from the Whitecloaks in episode 3???)

Aiel Waste Squad

At the end of episode 1, Moiraine talks about taking a Sea Folk ship to Tear and Rand goes Sike! We’re actually going to the Waste. In the books, this group uses a Portal Stone to transport an army’s worth of Aiel to the hills above Rhuidean, traveling halfway across the continent in seconds. Since they didn’t introduce Portal Stones in season 2, I can’t imagine they’ll introduce them now, especially since it’s not really plot relevant. They could also use the Ways, but that feels like a Moiraine way to travel and it feels like we’re doing what Rand wants to do now.

I think this is the group that is going to straight up roadtrip it, probably on horse back (maybe Bela???). The first thing they do when they get to the Waste is go to Rhuidean which isn’t happening until episode 4. And they’re starting in Tar Valon which is way closer to their destination than Tear. If they take the slow way, that allows for time on the road to establish Egwene as a Dreamwalker and for her to meet Bair in TAR before meeting her in person. Also time for a training montage of Lan and Rand with their swords.

And it seems like episode 2 and 3 are more White Tower and maybe Two Rivers heavy episodes, so it would make sense that they would be more so just traveling in the background.

Finally, Tanchico Squad

The Wondergirls (and Min and Mat) will definitely be the last ones to get to their book plot destination, as it seems Siuan isn’t sending them to hunt the Black Ajah until Episode 3. Someone, somewhere, a while ago said that we’re going to get the Sea Folk in season 3 and I think that the Wondergirls are going to get a ride from them to Tanchico.

Moiraine said that there was a Sea Folk ship at the Tar Valon port in episode 1 (I can’t remember if she specifically name dropped Wavedancer) but I think the Wondergirls will take the ship that Moiraine originally wanted to take to Tear to Tanchico (hopefully with a mention of what happened in Falme and the prophecies of the Coramoor).

I like the idea of Nynaeve and Elayne setting off alone from the White Tower and Min and Mat catching up with them as they’re leaving like Thom and Juilin do in the books. And in the new s3 stills, we do see a shot of Min and Mat standing inside what looks like the hull of a ship.

[toastandjamie]

Okay so-

I think what makes Mat/Egwene interesting is the same things that make Mat/Tuon interesting. In that the can make eachother considerably worse or considerably better with no inbetween.

-the two of them disagree on things that they feel are fundamental and obvious. For Mat/Tuon that is Seanchen slavery and for Mat/Egwene it’s the role of Aes Sedai and how they use their power to control others. Both at their core are disagreements about personal freedom. Both Tuon and Egwene believe that their personal organization is the only right and correct one and because of that should make all the decisions- even when it’s restricts and harms others. Obviously the two things aren’t actually the same- slavery and Aes Sedai manipulation aren’t the same thing but the reason Mat reacts so strongly to both things is the same. He deeply prioritizes personal choice and freedom above all else.

-following up on that is that both relationships require Mat to willingly give up those personal freedoms that he holds so dear. On Tuon/Egwene’s side of things they need to learn how to control Mat without realizing he’s being controlled/trapped. In this particular department I think Tuon has the advantage just due to her talent for manipulation, she has more experience keeping people reigned in on a short leash while making it seem like their idea. Egwene was getting there by the end of the series but I think especially with Mat she’s very blunt which causes arguments- which may actually be the healthier alternative in the end.

-both Egwene and Tuon will always prioritize their organization over themselves and their loved ones. In both cases Mat’s needs and well-being are always second to the White Tower/Seanchen. This causes tension between the two as well as forcing Egwene/Tuon to confront the fact that they Want to prioritize Mat but can’t.

-The only reason the relationship can function without any improvement in communication or character development is a combination of Mat’s unyielding loyalty making him very difficult to get rid of once he’s there and ability to separate an individual from their organization- Seeing Egwene as Egwene and not an Aes Sedai and seeing Tuon as Tuon and not the Empress. Even when Egwene and Tuon themselves consider these things inextricable.

At the core of things the same power dynamics are at play, which is what makes them so interesting to explore. Mat’s stubborness and adaptability put against a woman who demands obedience and believes wholly that they know what’s best for him and the world.

Now with that said Mat/Egwene has a very interesting extra feature in the Warder Bond. In Mat and Tuon’s relationship it’s not even a given that she’ll learn to channel point blank let alone learn how to bond warders but for Egwene I think the warder bond is a non-negotiable aspect of any romantic relationship she has- especially in the case of someone like Mat. The Warder bond has a lot of potential for Mat’s relationships specifically due to his feelings about channeling and Aes Sedai. Mat allowing someone to bond him is the ultimate act of trust from him. Not to mention the story potential of getting him to accept the bond and then the two learning to navigate the new dynamic.

Mat already has built in Warder arc ready to go! He is practically hand crafted to be a warder. He is loyal, strong, protective and has willingness to argue with his Aes Sedai. He wouldn’t be an easy Warder, to bond or handle once bonded, but as Lan shows the best warders are the difficult ones. It’s not a coincidence that out of three Ta’veren Mat gets the most offers to be a warder- though that can also be attributed him seeming like the easiest to convince, a bad call really. More importantly the way he interacts with the channelers in his life is very Warder like. His dynamic with Elayne in particular has a lot in common with a Warder and his Aes Sedai during the Ebou Dar arc.

Once Mat is Egwene’s warder is where things get really interesting though! If they both survive the Last Battle they become absolute forces of nature in the White Tower. Individually they will fuck you up but working together they’ll have the sitters bending the knee a month in! Mat would defend Egwene and her decisions while simultaneously arguing with her just as fiercely but once they’re on the same page about something there’s no stopping them. Just like with Tuon Mat is simultaneously her most vicious enforcer and her biggest political enemy.

There’s way more but I’ll leave it there for now.

So…. Is today the day I can talk about Egwene/Mat and how Mat has a built in warder character arc or should I go back to the cavern?

[cozcat]

I've seen a few different theories about what the show will do with Liandrin, given that you don't hire Kate Fleetwood for that plot. And the more I think about it, the more I think that Liandrin is going to die. Rafe promised us death, so about death shall I theorise. And I have thoughts on why, that I won't subject your dash to, as they got a bit long.

Liandrin does sod all after her subjugation. She's one of those stellar examples of Jordan being mostly unwilling to kill women, which the show has already proven with Amalisa that it will not be following in the fashion of. But she's pretty much done by The Fires of Heaven, and her later appearances do nothing but go "wow, yep, her life is still shit, no changes, moving on".

So, instead, kill her.

The two most popular theories I've seen are that they'll merge her with Alviarin or Galina. By merging her with Alviarin, the subjugation doesn't work - and that is something I feel is vital. (Plus, a few more prominent Black sisters who aren't Red is a very good thing.) And I wouldn't be surprised to see the plots Galina is involved in get so pared down that she's written out. (I'm expecting the Shaido plot on the whole to look ridiculously different.)

(A disclaimer: I can definitely see one of those merges happening anyway.)

With regards to plot, too, it makes sense. She's thus far the shadiest Aes Sedai we've met. She'll be the Big Bad of the White Tower, she'll sell Egwene into slavery, she'll flee with that little collection of Black Ajah and sow chaos. And then she meets her fate by Moghedien's hand.

A book can get away with loose ends in a way the show can't, and death is a clean and quick confirmation that that end is no longer loose. If they leave her alive, there is that thought of her coming back in some twisty way. (For this same reason, I don't think she will be the only person whose fate changes for that specific reason.)

She's also a reasonably well known face. If you've seen her in something, you remember her - you're never forgetting those cheekbones. Killing off someone recognisable always spices things up, and raises the stakes.

We need Moggy to be dangerous. And Moggy's subjugation of Liandrin already shows that - but as I said earlier, it leaves Liandrin as a loose end the show can't afford. Liandrin has been, until this point, broadly pretty successful in her nefarious doings. So Moggy killing her effortlessly drives home how dangerous she actually is.

And as a fun way of killing her, and flipping her fate in the books on its head - I can see Moghedien compelling Liandrin to kill herself, in some way that no person would even be able to kill themselves, in front of the rest of the Black Ajah. I'm picturing her forced to wring her own neck, all the while begging for her life. It makes Liandrin's arc nice and finished, it drives home how dangerous Moggy is (which is vital!), and it means we get to see Kate Fleetwood be fucking spectacular in her character's final moments. And honestly, seeing Kate Fleetwood be fucking spectacular is what I live for.

[butterflydm]

looking towards s3

I'm going to be doing a bit of wild speculation for s3, here, after going through the various book narratives and moments to check off what the show has already covered (including some speculation about certain plotlines having been subbed in for other ones) and so what's likely next for them in s3. Contains book spoilers through Knife of Dreams and casting and location spoilers for s3.

(for a more thorough "what's already been done", @sixth-light has one here: what's in and what's out: characters; worldbuilding)

The Eye of the World:

I think we can probably all agree that the one big thing from EotW that hasn't been covered yet is the introduction of the Caemlyn-related characters, other than Elayne -- namely Elaida, Gawyn, Galad, and likely Morgase. We know that this will happen in s3, at least to a certain extent.

They came in clutch at the last minute with giving us Elayne taking care of her 'bird with a broken wing' aka her meet-cute with Rand.

The Great Hunt:

Pretty much everything narratively important about TGH was covered this season. Some of it was remixed (Rand's 'Fal Dara' encounter with Siuan and the Aes Sedai happening in 2x7 in Cairhien instead of at the start of the arc) but pretty much everything important has been done.

And Siuan being much harsher with Rand in the show than in the books makes it understandable why Rand is not willing to trust Aes Sedai (with a handful of exceptions). imo the change in Siuan's plotline was done for three reasons: a. to set-up Rand's increasing wariness around the White Tower and Aes Sedai; b. to have a narrative reason why none of our main characters are going back to the White Tower next season; c. to set up a character arc for Siuan in s3+. Obviously, time will tell on whether or not I'm right, but those were the reasons that came to mind immediately after 2x7 and I still think they're likely reasons.

re: 'flicker-flicker' - the most important thing coming out of flicker-flicker is that Mat is determined never to 'betray' Rand, like it's implied that he did in some of the flicker worlds, and Mat has absolutely made that emotional commitment due to the events of this season.

The only important minor character from bk2 specifically that we don't get introduced to is Egeanin, I think, and again, that's a case of "if we have her, we want to introduce her when she's more narratively relevant", which would be either s3 or s4 in this case, for Nynaeve and Elayne's storyline. We also still have Egwene's introduction to Gawyn being held in reserve for when he enters the story.

The Dragon Reborn:

Elements pulled from TDR into s2:

Perrin (and thus viewers) getting introduced to Aiel culture (though through Aviendha rather than Gaul, combining two separate elements of bk3 into one introduction).

Mat being trapped in the White Tower and then released back out into the world.

Our introduction to Moiraine's spy network.

I think that Elyas being more human-apathetic plus Ishamael telling Perrin that "the more wolf you are, the more you're mine" may have subbed in for Noam and his loss of connection to humanity, driving Perrin to be wary of the wolf-connection.

Moiraine threatening Lan with a forced bond-change because she's trying to push him away.

Rand being hounded in his dreams and being lured to a site of prophecy by one of the Forsaken in an attempt to rescue Egwene.

Rand's moment of killing people and them kneeling to him (in the books, he actually sets them up to kneel; I liked the show's approach much better)

We also witnessed Mat having an actual reason for his Old Tongue memories and his fighting prowess and the show also may tie his luck into him blowing the Horn, given that he said his battle-cry, so I feel like the "archetype" he has in the Heroes is the Gambler (which I think the 'finn call him?). I really loved that all of Mat's random stuff has kinda been consolidated (and the Horn scene might be my favorite scene of the whole series thus far).

Rand being recognized as the Car'a'carn by Aiel searchers.

Elements that were not used but will happen next season: Perrin meeting Faile. I also think it's likely that Perrin will start going into TAR next season (which could give us either Birgitte or Uno | Gaidal Cain in a re-occurring role). Elayne and Nynaeve becoming Black Ajah Hunters (I'm unsure if Egwene will or if she's going to go straight to her bk 4 plotline; I suspect that she's going with Rand), which is also their bk4 plot. I do think we'll get both Perrin (via Hopper) and Egwene (via the Wise Ones) learning TAR.

Things I'm not sure we'll get:

I'm doubtful that we'll get Egwene & Elayne's Accepted tests at all:

Egwene may come across as an even better patsy/figurehead to Salidar if she's a novice

2x7 really makes me feel doubtful that The Dragon Reborn's friends will be able to waltz into Tar Valon and then waltz back out again (unless they are returning specifically to spy out the mood in TV re: the Dragon and Moiraine?)

Egwene choosing over and over to abandon Rand in the Tests feels like it would directly contradict her character arc in s2, where her motivation for working so hard in the Tower was to give herself the strength to protect the ones she loves.

@sixth-light suggested the idea that Egwene might get her "what is to come" vision in Rhuidean and I like that idea a lot -- if she goes with Aviendha to the silver rings and catches glimpses of her potential futures!

I feel like Aludra might not get introduced until very soon before we need to take the Stone of Tear (or potentially not until after Ebou Dar, when she's needed to create the dragons).

I also suspect that we'll skip Thom's storyline from this book just like we skipped his storyline from bk2 and go straight into his post-Tear bk4 storyline, since Rand is going to be doing Aiel politics and not Westlands politics next season. So my current suspicion is that Thom is going to be part of Elayne & Nynaeve's storyline (and then once Elayne and Nynaeve come back into Rand's storyline, that could be when Thom helps Rand).

This is also the book when balefire first appears (Rand uses it on Darkhounds; Nynaeve uses it for the first (and only?) time; and Moiraine uses it twice). Not sure when the show will introduce it, because I feel like it's going to be The One Way to actually kill Forsaken, so it may be held back closer to when one of them dies. I suspect we'll see Lanfear get doorway'd in s3, but I don't think any of the Forsaken will get killed off until s4 (Rahvin, if he exists) at the earliest. If Rand kills Rahvin with balefire in s4, that gives the rest of the Forsaken a reason to back off and keep their distance (especially if Moridin shows up in s5 to take the reins back over on prioritizing corrupting Rand over killing him).

What might happen in s3 but might be reserved for s4: the convergence on Tear and the various roads people take there. I feel like Tear is likely to come after the Waste and maybe even after Cairhien (Tear may be where Sammael is instead of Illian, but then Rand fails to kill him there and he flees to Illian?).

Also, as I keep noting in my reread posts (which is where I'm getting this info from) Mat is much less anti-Rand than fandom agreement had led me to believe/remember was happening in the books at this time. He dislikes The Dragon Reborn (TM) but his thoughts about Rand as a person tend to be more regretful or frustrated than fearful. So the show is doing fine there, since they've dealt with the The Dragon Reborn (TM) issue by having the whole "who is the Dragon plotline?" in s1.

The Fires of Heaven-A Crown of Swords:

I think we already covered "oh no someone else may get Lan's bond" and he'll go directly from Moiraine to Nynaeve, because Alanna has a more important forced bond to take (probably in s4). I am wondering if we'll see Nynaeve bonding Lan much earlier than in canon, maybe even at the end of s3 if Moiraine goes through the doorway and Nynaeve ends up in the same city as Rand & co.

Crossroads of Twilight-Knife of Dreams:

Guess who just got murdered! So... no Renna and no Seta. And maybe no more Suroth. The show has been ruthless with the Seanchan (not a complaint). The show is also leaning much more heavily on the friendship of the Two Rivers Five (plus now Elayne), so Mat doing any of the bullshit that he does in CoT & KoD feels less likely because this Mat doesn't have the excuse of dagger-sickness to forget what happened to Egwene in Falme. After the show made such a (beautiful! spectacular!) show of Mat being a good person at heart, even being a Hero of the Horn, which he wasn't in the books... yeah, they are not doing the book version of Mat & Tuon (thank fucking goodness). They may do a version of Mat & Tuon, but I think it will be very different from the books, if it happens.

One of the new interesting changes that the show appears to have done (from what Egwene said in 2x8) is make sul'dam extremely weak channelers instead of being learners. I think this has some fascinating implications re: Tuon because it means that a collar would 100% work on her. In the books, the sul'dam get tested along with all the other women to see if they are damane and if any of them have sparked, they end up caught.

It's only over long years of use that they develop their 'affinity' with their damane and this is when the collar would work on them. So, per book canon, it's entirely possible that putting a collar on Tuon during any of the books would fail to do anything, because she's still quite young and also is not 'complete' as often as many other sul'dam because of her high status. But in show canon? That collar will work 100%, because they use the Searchers to find marath'damane instead of testing every woman in the Empire every year (until they turn 25, I think it was). If the show is working backwards to decide on these changes, then it's entirely possible that this change in the way finding marath'damane is done was 100% specifically for Tuon's potential storyline down the road.

Also, I love that it means that Tuon is a weak-ass channeler, because that was always my head-canon for her anyway.

The Shadow Rising:

Elements already pulled from TSR+ into s2: Rand knows that Selene is Lanfear and Lanfear is offering to protect him from the other Forsaken and wants to work with him. And Rand also knows that "the Dark One" is actually Ishamael and the rest of the Forsaken are now out in the world. We've also learned about ji'e'toh already. TSR is also when Moghedien was introduced.

What likely won't happen in s3: I think Tear itself will be held back until after the arc in the Waste. They've already done some of the related character-work from the start of bk4 in s2 already, with Lanfear and Rand, and most of the other stuff (the 'finn doorway) could be moved to Falme if need be. Or, since we have the all characters going east, maybe it'll be in Caemlyn when the characters split up to their various plotlines (which would give us Elaida's Foretelling for Rand and Egwene meeting Gawyn) and then they wouldn't have needed to have Falme as a location shoot for s3 at all.

I do suspect that the Rand & Elayne relationship is being pushed to a later season and we'll likely get the beginnings of Rand & Aviendha instead (which makes me suspect that Elayne's storylines would get adjusted in a later season to actually give her time with Rand).

What likely WILL happen in s3: the Tower coup and Elaida taking over as Amyrlin; Rand & co going to the Waste and Rand becoming Car'a'carn while Mat gets his medallion and Egwene gets Wise One training; Elayne and Nynaeve (and Thom?) going Black Ajah hunting (or specifically after Liandrin?). Potentially we will see Rand and Aviendha catch feelings for each other as Rand and Egwene fall apart (and Lanfear stalks Rand from the sidelines, since she's not supposed to be interacting with him). And Perrin defending the Two Rivers, of course.

I don't think that we'll get Tuon this early, though we may get the prophecy (and the dread from the audience that Mat is destined to marry one of these horrible slaver people, because the Court of the Nine Moons has already been mentioned).

In addition to being a big book for Rand & Lanfear developments, TSR is wonderful for Rand & Mat as well. There are so many amazing moments for them in this book. If the show hits even a handful of these beats, s3 will be great for the Cauthor side of fandom. Especially with how Josha and Dónal are playing Rand & Mat as very handsy friends who are comfortable with physical touch.

So, what are some potential ways they could go with s3?

(I promise that any and all speculation with be at least 85% inaccurate and may be as much as 100%; does contain some casting and location spoilers for what we know about s3 so far)

Starting place in 3x1:

Option One: Falme subbed for Tear

We do Tear-stuff in Falme (doorway; maybe bubbles of evil) and then the characters split up for separate journeys.

Pros: making the most out of our current location! the characters are already there!

Cons: Have to pay a location fee for an additional season when they could instead use a s3 location.

Option Two: Caemlyn subbed for Tear

We know that Caemlyn is going to be in s3 and they might want to get the most out of their new location.

Pros: Might get Elaida's Foretelling of Rand. Egwene meets Gawyn without needing to go to the White Tower. Mat could do his 1v2 quarterstaff battle against Elayne's brothers. Means that everyone has already traveled significantly to the east during the break between seasons but they're all still together as a group, meaning we won't need as big a timeskip after this. And Elaida's Foretelling could even be the trigger for Rand & co needing to flee the city.

Cons: can't think of any but I'm sure they exist; this genuinely seems like such a good option to me that I am 100% marking it down to potentially write as a fic, if I ever get the time (I continue to collect plot bunnies at an alarming rate in this fandom!)

Option Three: Hurrying through BK3's ending (aka Tear is Tear)

This seems more expensive than it's worth, but maybe they got more money for s3!

Pros: bk3 Tear will be done, I guess?

Cons: expensive set piece and location that is then promptly abandoned so that everyone can go somewhere else

So, we've done our set-up episode and now we've moving on to: everyone goes somewhere else!

Where do they go?

Stop, Wait... Option Four: There Isn't A Set-Up Episode

This is the option for not having any set-up at all and just jumping into everyone's individual journeys.

Pros: Faster to get into the main story

Cons: No bonding time for the group as a whole; fewer character interactions; would probably make me sad

Well, we've either done our set-up or we haven't, so where is everyone going?

Perrin -> The Two Rivers

I mean, we all know it. Perrin is kinda the reason that I think we won't start with everyone already at their destinations, because I don't think Perrin's storyline in the Two Rivers is meaty enough to be stretched out over eight entire episodes.

Wondergirls -> ???

A White Tower stop-over seems fairly unlikely to me after 2x7, though there's a chance. I think it's more likely that we'll get them splitting up to go into their bk4 plotlines.

(If the Wondergirls do go to the White Tower, what is Rand doing during this time? How does Egwene reunite with Rand for her bk4 plotline?)

Verin burned her bridges with Siuan & Leane, potentially (she COULD probably talk herself out of being viewed as Black Ajah... maybe... but it's hard to see how she could talk herself out of being viewed as breaking Tower law) which implies to me that SHE isn't going to return to the Tower, and she is the one who introduces Dreaming to Egwene in the books. Which makes me lean towards the idea of Doing Tear (and the White Tower plots) in Caemlyn.

They could take some of the characters back to Tar Valon in s3 but... but that bridge between Moiraine and Siuan is so scorched right now that it's difficult to see Siuan being willing to let any of them leave the White Tower if they go there again.

Mat -> Rhuidean

Mat didn't touch the dagger, so he has no need to go back to the White Tower literally ever, especially since one of his Hero friends put the Horn away into an interdimensional pocket for later.

Rafe has implied that we will see Mat's quarterstaff battle at some point (unless he just meant that we would see Mat wielding a quarterstaff against two opponents at once, which definitely happened in 2x8), which leads me further to think about s3 starting in Caemlyn, because after that, Gawyn and Galad go off into separate plotlines.

If we assume that Caemlyn takes the place of both Tear and the White Tower for book 3 & early book 4 events, then everyone would go to their book 4 plotlines from here -- Perrin would go west to the Two Rivers; Rand & co would go to the Waste; Elayne & Nynaeve would go to do some Liandrin-hunting. We would only need five main locations for the season, at least two of which are pre-existing -- Caemlyn, the Two Rivers, Tar Valon, the Aiel Waste/Rhuidean, and whichever city Elayne & Nynaeve go to in order to hunt Liandrin (and if it's Cairhien, then they already have the location/set).

Events that I'm Pretty Sure we'll get in s3:

Rhuidean. Rand's walk through Aiel history and Mat's encounter with the foxes. Rand saving Mat's life. <3

Asmodean becomes Rand's teacher.

I do think we'll likely get Couladin proclaiming himself as the Car'a'carn and the chaos of Alcair Dal, because Mat killing Couladin is really what creates the BotRH and cements him as the leader.

The White Tower coup.

Nynaeve faces off against Moghedien... or maybe this season she will still be focused on Liandrin?

The Battle of the Two Rivers.

I think we will start to get Rand & Aviendha in this season, but slow-burn. But if they plan to do the Moiraine & Lanfear show-off at the end of the season, then you'd want the Rand & Aviendha relationship to begin to flower. And then Lanfear is out of the picture (as far as Rand knows), which would let him worry less about her killing any woman that he's attracted to.

Things that we Might Get in s3 (depending on pacing):

We might get either Cairhien or Tear at the end of the season. That really depends on pacing and I don't know how fast they plan to move through the arc in the Waste. There are really only two big Events in the Waste in bk4 -- Rhuidean and Alcair Dal; though there's also visiting Cold Rocks Hold and the attack there.

Moiraine and Lanfear's encounter with the doorway. The reason that I'm thinking this might happen in s3 is because someone (was it Rafe?) teased about a "big cast change" at then end of s3 that book readers would be familiar with. Losing Moiraine right as he gets a Forsaken as a teacher would be very intriguing.

If we are going to do the polycule (*crosses fingers hard*), then there needs to be a decent stretch of time where Elayne is actually allowed by the plot to spend time with Rand. We got our meet-cute and it was beautiful, so I have high hopes. There is also a new tor.com interview where Rafe says that Elayne and Rand have a 'huge arc' together.

For now, I think the time period after her book 4 plotline and before she gets involved in Ebou Dar seems like the best time (as opposed to just wandering the countryside for weeks because Nynaeve can't remember the word 'Salidar'). So after Rand has returned to the wetlands. I am going to speculate that s3 ends with the Battle of Cairhien while, at the same time, Elayne and Nynaeve go to Cairhien for their own story reasons. Because they've already done their book 4 plotline, and maybe part of their book 5 plotline, there's no need for them to hurry off right away. And Elayne spends most of s4 with Rand (and Aviendha) (and Mat). Elayne can help Rand navigate politics in Cairhien, and they can fall in love while being big ol' workaholics. We also could have Dumai's Wells happen here so that Rand can get rescued not only by Perrin but also by Mat, Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, & Aviendha. Which would just be nice.

I do think, based on the Power of Friendship vibe that we had in the s2 finale, that the show is going to be bringing our characters back together a lot more often than the books did (and I'm happy about that).

So, based on that idea... a tentative outline for s3 (I am not expecting this to end up being at all accurate, lol, just feeling some things out about a potential way things could go based on what we've see so far in terms of how quickly the plot moves and how the show seems like it's more willing to reunite all the characters, so I am going to try to get everyone to Cairhien by ep8 so that they can reunite again; we also might be doing Tear instead at the end of the season):

ep1: The opening of the season is supposed to start with a 'bang'. Would they do the Tower coup this early in the season? Siuan ended s2 in a terrible political position, having the Dragon in her possession and then losing him. And if anyone finds out that she was conspiring with Moiraine for twenty years... otoh, would they want to show us Elaida in Caemlyn first, before taking her to the Tower for that plotline?

I'm not sure how much of a time-jump we'll get, though probably a bit of one, but I'm hoping we'll get to see all the characters together in the same location, as happened in Tear in the books. This may take place either in Falme or in Caemlyn, but our characters will have a chance to regroup and mingle. We may get some of our action from the start of book 4 here -- the bubble of evil, getting rumors of trouble in the Two Rivers. If the opening episode is in Caemlyn and not Falme, it may also feature: Mat vs Gawyn & Galad; Egwene and Rand (at least) meeting Gawyn and Galad. Rand meeting Elaida and getting a version of the Foretelling. This might also have our characters meeting up with Verin and Alanna in Caemlyn, and we may get our Verin & Egwene scenes and a certain gift of a twisted stone ring.

perhaps spurred by Elaida's Foretelling, our group scatters to their future destinations. Since they are much closer to the Two Rivers than they were in the books at this time, it might be that Loial leads Rand's group through the Ways to Rhuidean, rather than leading Perrin to the Two Rivers. Egwene meets the Wise Ones in TAR and decides she also needs to go to Rhuidean with Rand.

ep2: Perrin arrives in the Two Rivers and we get a look into that situation; Elayne and Nynaeve get interrogated by a woman who is definitely not secretly Moghedien. Rand and Mat ask permission to go to Rhuidean. In order to make it so that all the characters are heading in to the same place, maybe Elayne and Nynaeve went to Cairhien to investigate Liandrin's disappearance? Since all the 'known' Seanchan were killed off in the Battle of Falme, the show may have the Seanchan take s3 (and s4?) off as they regroup before their next offensive.

ep3: They've put a pretty heavy-hitter in as ep3 in s2 and it seems likely they would try to do the same in s3 because of the way that Prime drops shows, so let's call ep3 the Rhuidean episode, where we learn about the Aiel's past and Mat finds a doorway. Moiraine goes through the silver rings, learning about what will happen to her in the future, and writes some letters (alt: Moiraine goes through the doorway in Rhuidean as well and learns it there?).

ep4: Rand & co travel towards Alcair Dal (skipping Cold Rocks Hold); If the White Tower Schism didn't happen in ep1, maybe it happens here. I'm going to tentatively put the Coup here. Rahvin arrives in Caemlyn, if he exists?

ep5: Alcair Dal & Rand trapping Asmodean as a teacher (with Lanfear's help). Couladin announces that he's the Car'a'carn and decides to march on Cairhien, and Rand already feels guilty about getting Lanfear to help him escape in 2x7 and her torching the city, so he's extra motivated to stop him.

ep6: Battle of the Two Rivers, so that Perrin will be able to start his cross-country road trip to meet back up with everyone else by the end of the season? Maybe including the 'trap' for Faile that happened in TDR and it makes Perrin realize that he has feelings for her, which he feels guilty about. Asmodean begins teaching Rand.

ep7: Nynaeve and Moghedien have a confrontation in Cairhien and Nynaeve manages to defeat Moghedien, causing her to flee (or maybe this is Nynaeve defeating Liandrin? We might want to keep Moggy scary for the moment). At the end of the episode, the Shaido Aiel have arrived to lay siege to the city.

ep8: Battle of Cairhien - Mat kills Couladin and forms the Band of the Red Hand; Lanfear finds out that Rand and Aviendha have... slept together? kissed? have feelings for each other? And Moiraine and Lanfear have their appointment at the docks when Lanfear loses it as she realizes that after all her work, Lews Therin/Rand is never going to love her the way that she wants him to.

Then, in the name of 'letting the characters spend more time together', Rand's friends maybe actually get to hang out with him in s4 before people split up again, giving us a situation where the whole group gets to reassemble to save Rand at Dumai's Wells? Hard to guess without knowing how much will get covered in s3. They've done a great job pulling in plot lines from various books so far.

s2 did an amazing job of having a handful of themes that they explored through multiple characters and storylines, so I expect that s3 will also have some themes that they will be using. Not sure what it might be yet though once we get our s3 trailer (in, like, a year or a year and a half, lol) we'll probably have a better idea, because Halsey's "Control" being used for the s2 trailer was INCREDIBLY accurate for some of s2's themes -- "who is in control?" and the idea of fear and control and trying to own someone's power were very much at play in s2.

So what character arcs might we see in s3?

I think we're going to see Moiraine & Lan firmly established as mentors to Rand throughout the season, doing their best to prepare him for the future. And then Rand is potentially going to lose both of them at the end of the season (since I think that the show might bring all the characters together at the end of the season again, we might even see Nynaeve "bonding Lan to save his life" at the end of s3).

In general, there's just... honestly gonna be so much Rand stuff that I will be absolutely overwhelmed (in a good way). TDR-TSR-TFoH are my favorite run of the books and there are just so parts of TSR that are SO good (and a lot of them are Rand).

Theory for Mat's arc in s3: I wonder if we're going to start with him choosing to take a bodyguard-type role for Rand (because of his guilt over the stabbening) and transition to taking a general/captain-role at the end of the season (which would involve more independence in the future when he needs to leave Rand's plotline) as the Maidens take over as Rand's bodyguards. TSR is such a good book for both Rand and Mat in general, so I'm really looking forward to what the show does because the show has invested so much in their relationship already.

I am so so curious about what dynamic will be established for Rand & Asmodean and how many of the other characters might know the truth about him. In the books, Moiraine reveals in her letter to Rand that she knew who he really was but agreed with Rand that perhaps there was no choice but to work with him, because she agrees that Rand needs the training.

I do think we'll see some vibes between Rand and Elayne in the first episode, but that they won't act on them. But Rand was clearly struck by Elayne tenderly healing him with the sunlight in her hair and I do think we'll get some follow-up on that moment in ep1.

We'll also be getting Rand and Egwene pulling away from each other as romance partners (but perhaps settling into being trusted friends?). And I agree with @markantonys that it makes the most sense to have Rand & Aviendha as Rand's first established romance post-Egwene, because of the way the plotlines are set-up (Aviendha is actually going to be around Rand all season) and because she comes from a culture that leaves space for adding additional partners, so you don't need to use the misunderstanding loophole for Elayne and then Min to be added to the relationship in the future.

Perrin is going to come face-to-face with his guilt and grief over his wife's death when he goes back to the Two Rivers. Especially when he begins to catch feelings for Faile. We'll also see him training in TAR with Hopper. We'll see the continuation of his struggle with Dain. I do wonder if Dain might die at the end of s3, for similar reasons to why Renna, Seta, & Suroth died at the end of s2, leaving room for Galad to become the main Young Whitecloak figure in the future. Because the Whitecloaks spend several books not really being relevant in the middle part of the series.

Given how Nynaeve struggled with her block this season and it's been a real obstacle for her, one that she can't handwave away by doing the Bruce Banner "I'm always angry" thing like she kinda does in the books, I think that her main struggle this upcoming season is going to be trying to break her block and that they might even have her succeed at the end of the season against Moghedien -- much like s2 featured Egwene, Mat, & Moiraine coming into their powers (or back into their powers for Moiraine), s3 may see Nynaeve, Rand, & Perrin doing that.

The fact that Siuan disagreed so strongly with Moiraine in 2x7 makes me feel that it's more likely that she will survive the coup, because now she has tons of space for a character growth arc once she's struggling with actually dealing with her own stubborn Two Rivers person in the form of Egwene.

This will be Elayne's first season as an established member of the group -- one of the reasons that I think we'll get a set-up episode at the start of the season is that it makes sense to establish what her place is within the group. And then if Thom is in her storyline, we'll be able to explore a lot of her feelings about being the Daughter-Heir and her relationship with her mother, even if Morgase isn't shown on-screen.

Given that we killed off* all the 'known' Seanchan, I wonder if that means that we'll be taking a break from them in seasons 3&4, and then have them return at the end of s5(?), after Mat, Nynaeve, Elayne, and Lan have all gone to Ebou Dar (maybe Egeanin's plotline is shifted to Ebou Dar and we see that being explored at the start of s5 before the bulk of the Seanchan attack at the end?).

(* well, Suroth might not be dead, since we didn't actually see her die and she might have gotten rescued from the water, so she might be existing in a quantum state -- dead if they can't get the actress back later on but alive if they can)

We had a LOT of plotlines in s2 -- five major plotlines (Rand, Mat, and Perrin each got their own, while Egwene & Nynaeve and Moiraine & Lan did some sharing) plus we had the villain plotlines.

I’m guessing that we’ll only have three main plotlines in s3, which will give them all a bit more breathing room — we’ll have Rand & co in the Waste; Perrin & co in the Two Rivers; and Nynaeve & co doing a version of Tanchico. I think that the White Tower coup is likely to be a plotline for one-three episodes rather than something that spans the entire season.

And now, just for fun, a WoT s2 speculation scorecard! How well did I do?

I'll go backwards in time, so starting with my most recent speculation (that I did based on the 2x8 trailer that aired post 2x7).

That shot of Rand asking "who are you?" would be to that lovely shot of Elayne with sunlight in her hair: Correct!

Lanfear and Ishamael will fall apart while the Two Rivers kids stick together: Correct!

Elayne and Nynaeve will have to separate due to only have one sul'dam outfit: Wrong!

Hopper is going to die; Perrin will kill Daddy Bornhald in retaliation: Correct!

I had, like, three different guesses for the Horn situation so I'm not giving myself any credit there, lol

Turok will die by channeling, not by sword: Correct!

Moiraine and Lan will free damane as their plotline for this episode: Wrong!

Speculation for 2x7 made after trailer that came out after 2x6:

I do a lot of vague spec, the first firm thing I say without as much waffling is that Rand will be put under 'house arrest' by Siuan: Correct!

Mat saw Rand get taken by Lan & co: Wrong!

Lanfear and/or Ishamael arranges the fire in Foregate to free Rand from his 'house arrest' by the Aes Sedai: Correct!

Egwene gets to socialize with other damane: Wrong!

Speculation for 2x6-2x8 based on imdb listings for the last three episodes:

again, I do a lot of waffling and 'maybe this, maybe that', my first solid spec is that Liandrin's son would die in 2x6: Correct!

I did think we would get the royal wedding, so I will mark that: Wrong!

Natti Cauthon would appear as part of Ishy messing with Mat: Correct!

I thought the White Tower would be a location in these last three episodes: Wrong!

Yacissa will get killed by the Black Ajah: Wrong! (very happy to be wrong; I LOVE her)

Lanfear will help Rand out as his presence creates a wedge between Lanfear and Ishmael: ...kinda? I mean, she was Team Rand the second she learned Rand existed, lol.

Rand will leave Cairhien via Waygate: Correct!

Maigan will be Pura: Wrong! (no one is Pura, at least not now, and Maigan is very dead)

Loial will get to visit Egwene in the 'kennels': Wrong!

Egwene won't be freed until 2x8: Correct!

The 2x8 cold open will focus on LTT & Ishamael: Correct!

Ishamael will experience a painful reversal of expectations in 2x8 as his plans fall to pieces: Correct!

I also speculated here that Perrin would kill Bornhald in this version but I already counted that one above.

Uno will reappear as one of the Heroes of the Horn: Correct!

Speculation for 2x4 based on the first three episodes:

Moiraine doesn't already know Rand is in Cairhien: Wrong!

Lan will show the Lanfear poem to Alanna & co: Wrong!

Liandrin will tell Nynaeve that Perrin & co were captured by the Seanchan: Correct!

Logain was deliberately placed in Cairhien to lure Rand there: Correct!

Before we got the episode titles but after the trailer came out:

Siuan's trip to Cairhien occurs in episode 6: Correct!

Rand will still be wandering around the countryside when he meets Selene: Wrong!

Moiraine and Lan will be researching at Verin's in 2x1: Correct!

Rand and Selene's main episode will be ep2: Wrong!

The shot of Lan on Mandarb in the woods will be in Nynaeve's Accepted Test: Correct!

Nynaeve's Accepted Test will happen in ep3: Correct!

Moiraine and Rand reunite in ep4: Correct! (wrong about how/why though)

Perrin meets the Seanchan in ep5: Wrong!

Perrin meets Aviendha in ep5: Correct!

Rand meets Logain in ep6: Wrong!

"We get the New Spring flashback scene, see Moiraine & Siuan happy and young, then hear Gitara's Foretelling": Close! (I guessed it for ep6)

Verin will be in Perrin's plotline: Wrong!

Liandrin will be confirmed as a darkfriend in ep6: Close! (it was ep5)

Egwene, Nynaeve, & Elayne will spend the first 5 episodes in the White Tower and the last 3 in Falme: Close! (it's more 4 in WT; 1 traveling; 3 Falme)

I did a huge post of How Does Mat Get To Falme, which ended up being hilariously incorrect as "Lanfear has him bonked over the head and then Travels him there" was not on my radar, lol. But my favored method included him reuniting with Rand in Cairhien, so I'm glad that part still happened.

Anyway, I didn't do so awful in my predictions, I think.

(In terms of 'accidental predictions', I did write a fic involving Rand being tied to a bed in Cairhien by his lover literally months before we had any clue it would be happening in the show, - and while I'm talking about randomly accidentally being a Prophet in my fics: in Voice, I had Lanfear (who we had not yet met in the show) giving solid relationship advice - "That's fear talking, not fact" & I had this line for Mat: "Maybe Mat was destined to be a failure and a disappointment, like his father. But he wouldn't just lie down and let it happen." which is essentially what it feels like we just got from him in 2x8.)

[damn-oh-dread]

Some, frankly ridiculous, over-analysis of 3 pages in chapter 15 of Fires of Heaven:

I honestly did not think there was going to be a scene specifically about Moiraine reacting to the idea Siuan could be dead. I kind of assumed it would be an implied conversation or something along the lines of Egwene going “Moiraine guess what,” with a response something like “I know.” So anyway, these whole 3 pages were really fun! Thank you, Robert Jordan, for doing this one thing for me. To celebrate the fact this exists I’ve decided to completely over-analyze it!

So, we enter Moiraine’s tent to find that she is still eavesdropping on Rand and probably everyone else while shes at it and I personally find it hilarious that Egwene is surprised she is still doing this. Girl, Moiraine has been eavesdropping on everyone ever since she learned how to channel, you think she would stop now? Because someone asked her not to? Moiraine never once told anyone she would stop eavesdropping actually. She just mentioned that they should “allow Rand some privacy” which does not specifically mean privacy from her. The way she speaks so much through implication and what she keeps unsaid is *chefs kiss* she is just so fascinating!!! And when she says “goals, which may not be those of the Tower” ??? I am hysterical. Because, on one level, yes she is correct. The Wise Ones do not have the same goals as the Tower but really what I think she means to say is that they don’t have the same goals as her and Siuan. Moiraine has spent only a handful of days at the white tower in 21 years, she is not around enough to really be apart of the white tower action. Moiraine is not working for the white tower. Like yes she is working with the Amyrlin but not because the Amyrlin seat is the number one authority, she is working with the Amyrlin because they're besties.

Brief interlude about Egwenes dreams:

Rand sitting down in a chair, and somehow she knew that the chair's owner would be murderously angry at having her chair taken; that the owner was a woman was as much as she could pick out

Me frantically writing down all the women rulers in Randland: So, Caemlyn? 👀

Every time he moved closer to Perrin it was as if a chill of doom shot through everything

(sidenote: is perrin just not in this book? Where is he? where are you girl?)

Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound

Okay the only thing I can think of that would bleed and also be covered by Mats hat would be if he got some injury on the top half of his face so like, sexy pirate look? Scar over the eye? I think mat could pull off an eye patch. Can not wait for Mat's sexy pirate era as he deserves! 🤩

Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead

You know, everything in this book so far is really making me think that RJ is gonna kill her off. Rip the mentor character, you guys are always my favourite. 😔 How would Thom get her kesiera though? He watches her die? She dies in a fire? He takes her kesiera from the fire and keeps it in hopes he will meet her in another life so he can figure out which Aes Sedai to kill to avenge his nephew? Sorry guys I literally have no ideas for this one. TLDR, Moiraine probably dies and Thom for some reason has feelings about that. I mean he is kinda horny for her in book 4 so I could see him being a little sad in a “oh no that girl I thought was sexy is dead, you win some you lose some I guess” kind of way. Which can not fault him, Moiraine is super hot. Have you guys SEEN Rosamund Pike???

ANYWAY MOVING ON

The fact there is an arrest warrant for Moiraine because she's helping the dragon reborn is hilarious to me for the reason that yes, she has indeed been helping the dragon reborn and that is a no-no but she has also been doing so many other illegal things. If Elaida, somehow, wasn't aware that Moiriane was also looking for the Dragon Reborn she still could have gotten Moiraine thrown in White Tower jail for so many other reasons. And Elaida decided to get her for treason? Bo-ring.

Just off the top of my head, a list of (what I assume would be counted as) crimes Moiraine has committed:

Knowing how to cast balefire

CASTING BALEFIRE

killing another Aes Sedai

being in cahoots with the Amyrlin

being married to the Amyrlin

Lowkey stealing a sa'angreal (yes I know that Siuan gave it to her but I think overall this is generally a thing that makes them both look very bad)

Just generally doing what she wants at all times

Elaida could have gotten her for SO MUCH.

Next point,

"Is that all you can say? I think Siuan was your friend once, Moiraine. Can't you shed a tear for her?"

Egwene, even if Moiraine was super upset about Siuan, why would she break down in front of you? It has already been proven many times that Moiraine can stay straight faced through some intense stuff. You are not one of the two people that Moiraine has ever been vulnerable for!!! So, sorry Egwene. Like what were you expecting bestie???

Secondly, Moiraine responding to Egwene with, “I have no time for tears,” is just peak characterization right there!!!!! Yes girl!!! I love how that one line both further establishes Moiraine’s frankly insane sense of duty but also implies that if she did have the time to let herself grieve she wouldn’t be able to keep going to complete her mission. At this point she is staying with the mission to honour Siuan and the history that they have together. To stop now would be to dishonour her and her legacy. If Moiraine ever stopped for a second to think about literally anything that has happened to her and the people she cares about since starting her quest searching for the dragon reborn it would be very difficult to keep going I think. Moiraine can not slow down!

“We were friends once.”

Hey babe, quit telling everyone I’m your ex-girlfriend because we got married. Okay jokes aside I do really like this line because I think it speaks a lot to the depth of their relationship. Moiraine is a character that leaves much more meaning unsaid so you really need to read between the lines with her. Here she says that in the past they used to be friends. And yeah, because they were. After almost 21 years of working together in this cause they are so much more than just friends though! They were working together in an environment where if either of them were even suspected of being in cahoots it would have spelled disaster for them both. And the stakes are even higher when Siuan is raised to the Amyrlin Seat. It could have been so easy for either of them, driven by paranoia or fear or jealousy etc, to betray the other to save themselves. And yet they never did! Even when it would have been safer to be apart and work separately and never speak again, they still work together and stay really good friends throughout it all! So like yes they were friends once, but time and a shared purpose have tempered their relationship into something much stronger than the early friendship and comradery they shared as novices.

There is a saying in Cairhien, though I have heard it as far away as Tarabon and Saldaea. 'Take what you want, and pay for it.' Siuan and I took the path we wanted, and we knew we would have to pay for it eventually."

Take what you want and pay for it, is such a banger saying. But yeah, Moiraine and Siuan decided 21 years ago that they wanted and more importantly felt they needed to be the ones to find the Dragon Reborn and now they are both paying for that choice. The price they payed just happened to be the highest amount they could have been charged. They both knew they could die on this mission and so Moiraine has no choice but to move on and not think about it ever. They really did take what they wanted and then paid for it.

Now is a good time to introduce my two theories on what is going on in Moiraine's mind at the moment of this conversation.

Theory A)

Moiraine knows that Siuan has just been stilled either from the creepy fae people or from her crazy Rhuidean adventure. So obviously Moiraine would be worried, but knowing that Siuan is still alive would decrease that worry a little bit. That's why when Egwene gives her the news about Siuan, since she already knows about Siuan's fate, it allows her to take it with a straight face cause shes already expecting it.

Theory B)

The more agonizing of the two theories for sure: Moiraine is just as in the dark as everyone else, and assumes that the worst has happened to Siuan. From there, she is just holding herself back an insane amount after this news like a crazy person. Maybe she takes it with a straight face and then is sad about it when Egwene is gone.

I’m leaning more towards Theory A because there is no way after seeing every future in Rhuidean she doesn’t know generally what Siuans fate is. And! This entire book she’s been super on edge. What more could put you on edge than knowing your bestie has been through it and you won’t be able to be there for them??? And in the conversation where she and Lan talk about worries and how Moiraine is so worried lately she thinks about Siuan. Coincidence? I think not. And if Moiraine really was in the dark I feel like she maybe would have flinched, or there would have been a tiny reaction, even if it happened to be one that is quickly gone. You can’t react to the news your friend might be dead without a tiny reaction unless she already knew and was ready for it.

Do you expect me to be happy that the White Tower has split apart?

No, because it makes your life harder since you won’t be immune to tower politics anymore.

I gave my life to the Tower long before I ever suspected the Dragon would be Reborn in my lifetime.

You literally weren't even Aes Sedai yet when you learned the Dragon was reborn. Chill out drama queen damodred.

I could almost wish that every sister had sworn to Elaida, whatever happened to Siuan."

Okay but almost wishing for something is different than wishing for something. I do understand where she is coming from though. It would be much easier to manipulate or stay away from the tower if it was acting as a single entity. Now that it is fractured this spells massive trouble for Moiraine, especially because she is already on Elaidas hit list. The fractured tower is a huge headache for her and makes her plans so much more complicated. BUT! She doesn’t actually wish that (as much as it would help her) because a) Elaida is a huge bitch, a fact which Moiraine knows about quite personally and b) Moiraine is probably absolutely livid towards Elaida right now for hurting someone that she cares about. (Reading about what happens to Siuan made me livid so I'm doing a bit of projecting here BUT I think it is a fair thing to assume) Therefore, she wishes for Elaida to have the worst time possible regardless for how much harder it makes her goals!

But you forget that only thirteen sisters linked can shield any man from saidin, and even if they do not know the trick of tying flows, fewer can hold that shield.

Yeah Egwene, you forget that Aes Sedai don’t need to be working together to fuck shit up.

I mean to deal with the world as I find the world, for as long as I can

Okay this is starting to turn more into Elizabeth reacts to 3 pages in chapter 15 but I just really like this quote a lot. This is just, so Moiraine. This is her as a character. Someone who deals with the world and keeps going until the very end.

"With luck," the Aes Sedai went on, "we will not have to worry about Lanfear."

OKAY WHAT IS HAPPENING TO LANFEAR?!?!?!? I know Moiraine has been ease dropping on Rand right? So she probably just assumes that Lanfear and Rand are working something out. Right? RIGHT? Plot twist: Moiraine has actually been planning an elaborate scheme to somehow take Lanfear out this whole time.

"They may be strong in many ways, but they are sadly lacking in others"

MOIRAINE YOUR HAUGHTINESS IS SHOWING ASDFJASDIEWFN

Even Nynaeve doesn't think it is right.

Nynaeve is so obsessed with Moiraine, I love it. Like, sorry to break it to you Nynaeve but in order to hate something you do need to care about it and what happens to it.

well, anyway

that is it. That is all my thoughts.

If you read this far, thanks for sticking around!

[sparklyeevee]

Siuan Sanche was Black Ajah. My case here is not, like, airtight. Every piece of evidence has an alternate explanation, although some of them are a stretch.

Strongest evidence: During her arrest in TSR, she claims there has never been a rebellion inside the Tower. However, it is later established that there have been six mutinies and a handful of other events in Tower history which any reasonable person would understand as rebellion inside the Tower. Now, it is if course possible that she's getting cute with the definitions of either "rebellion" or "inside the Tower", but we do not actually see Aes Sedai engage in that kind of wordplay very often. Most usually, they just leave things out, or say something vaguely, rather than relying on some super-specific personal definition of a word. The most straightforward explanation is that she lied.

Also in TSR, when Min says that Elaida's people came as close as they could to naming Siuan and Leane Darkfriends, Leane is surprised and confused, the same as basically every other non-Darkfriend we see presented with that accusation. Siuan... Isn't. It is worth noting here that most characters interpret shock and outrage at being accused of being a Darkfriend as pretty strong evidence of its not being true (See: TFoH ch. 10), so Siuan's failure to display those things is notable.

Siuan gets much closer than anyone else to voluntarily breaking an oath sworn under the Light and by her hope of salvation and rebirth, or may the Creator’s face turn from her forever and darkness consume her soul. Like, she says it's because she didn't say when she'd fulfill that oath, I didn't miss that part, but no one else seems to be comfortable getting cute with this kind of thing.

Second strongest evidence: She came back from Chachin, and Merean Redhill didn't. A major part of how the Black Ajah has managed to remain secret this long is that if an Aes Sedai gets too close to discovering the Black Ajah, she's kidnapped and forced to choose between being killed and swearing to the Shadow. Even in the chaos of the Vileness and the transition between Jarna's leadership and Alviaran's, it seems unlikely that they would not at least have suspected her, especially when she was, in fact, aware of the Black Ajah and actively investigating murders they committed before she went to Chachin. Seaine was able to avoid this fate, but only because her plan for looking into the Black Ajah quite incidentally involved stealing the Oath Rod, meaning that she couldn't be forced to swear to the Shadow, because they didn't have the tool necessary to make those oaths binding. Moiraine is able to avoid it by almost never being at the Tower, and never for very long.

And following on that, Siuan is not nearly as upset as she ought to be about being stilled. Like we know that the outcomes aren't as bad as the Tower thinks, but we can pretty directly compare her mood to Leane's, and she's in better condition at least for most of the trip to Salidar. This would mean almost nothing on its own, but taken with the rest it may suggest that she sees an upside to being stilled, in no longer being bound by her oaths to the Shadow.

All that with doing Gareth Bryne's laundry and everything. Her insistence upon doing it, when either Egwene or the Salidar Hall offered to just pay him for the barn. Like the above, this would not be much on its own, except an extremely strange characterization choice, but in this context, one might consider that she's trying to do some kind of penance, have herself a little redemption arc, only she can't tell anyone, because she needs to get other stuff done at the same time that would be fatally undermined by her admitting to ever having served the Shadow, however unwillingly.

Her Mistress of Novices was Black Ajah. Again this might not mean much - a lot of Mistresses of Novices are - but it's there.

Yeah if she was Black Ajah her name should have been in Verin's book, but considering the genuine concern that Verin shows for Ingtar in TGH, I think it's possible that those Verin knows were forced, as she was, were not included in her list. Once the Black Ajah was dismantled, if she ever succeeded in taking them down, those few would have been easy enough to approach privately and unbind. Honestly, I suspect Siuan was in Verin's Heart.

On the subject of things Verin says in TGH, and this is finally getting us back around to Alric: During Rand's meeting with Siuan, Verin says, to Siuan, "I would not be without Tomas, as you would not lose Alric." (My italics). Given what we know about Tomas and his relationship with Verin, if I'm right about Siuan, it seems to me entirely possible that Alric has a similar relationship with Siuan, that he was another darkfriend looking for a way out. Heck, if they are in the same Heart, it strikes me as more likely than otherwise that Verin found Alric for Siuan, which would provide answers to the related questions "Where did Siuan even find this guy?" and "Why did she take someone that much older than she is as her first Warder?"

Some of the details surrounding Siuan's capture are still odd to me.

How did they block her from the Source before she saw them?

How did she not feel her Warder die?

[markantonys]

I've seen so many comments re Rand "he didn't do anything the entire season, He was just dragged around by other people the entire season, he's not even a character in the show, he's a plot device, he was just an observer in his own story" and I feel like I watched an entire different show than those people. Like even with the being dragged around by other people argument he's still actively making his own decisions this season whether that's getting information from Logain and learning some things from him, the cat and mouse game he has going on with Lanfear, etc.

i've seen a bunch of comments like that too and am equally baffled! just because he isn't yet a Channeling Master doesn't mean he did nothing all season and is a plot device rather than a character? lmao, i'd argue that if the show had focused on making him blow stuff up with the power or win swordfights against blademasters despite no training rather than on exploring who he is as a person and how the specifics of his personality affect him and the other characters and the story, THAT would be making him a plot device rather than a character!

rand's entire storyline this season centered around who he is as a person: someone who will do anything to protect the people he loves. moiraine had to seek him out because of this specific aspect of his character. lanfear and ishamael used this specific aspect of his character to manipulate him. he went to falme and got publicly declared TDR because of this specific aspect of his character. so many plot points would not have happened if not for this specific aspect of rand's character. that means he is a fleshed-out character who drives the story and makes things happen, regardless of how often he gets trapped or tricked or shielded or how often he needs help to get out of situations.

and like, yes, he IS largely being bossed around by other characters at this early stage...............which is the point! he is the most powerful and dangerous figure in the world, and he doesn't yet know how to use that power, but everyone around him sure does have plenty of ideas of how THEY want to use his power! moiraine's trying to drag him in one direction, lanfear in another, ishamael in a third, the tower in a fourth, etc etc. that's The Point of this early stage of rand's arc and something that is thematically huge for him throughout the series, and book readers should know this. i can give show-onlys who don't yet know the full trajectory of his arc more leeway, but even then it's pretty obvious that all our young heroes are in the process of growing into their roles and figuring out how to be independent and that they're still EARLY in that process, and that as the story goes on we will see them take charge of their own destinies more and more.

and like you say, rand absolutely IS making his own decisions this season! he's getting dragged around by people and factions who are as of right now stronger than him, but that doesn't make him a cardboard cutout who doesn't affect the story. half the stuff in this season was caused by HIS decision to wander off alone and let everyone think he was dead! he got a whole-ass job and worked his way up the ranks all on his own, all because he was motivated to get to logain to ask for channeling help! he's trying to take control of the lanfear situation, and sure she's usually out-manipulating him seeing as she has 3000 years of experience at her disposal compared to his 21, but he's also very aware of the leverage HE has over HER and has been taking advantage of it! HE was the reason they all went to falme, it wasn't moiraine forcing him to go, HE wanted to go on his own to help egwene! even if lanfear pulled strings by making him aware of egwene's situation in the first place, it was still HIS decision!

[highladyluck]

Wheel of Time 01x08 liveblog

Teaser:

The R.O.U.S.es are a myth, but the Man-Eating Fungus is very real

ooops, the dark one's prison broke the nice china

HOLY SHIT [this response encompasses everything from 'that armor is awesome' to 'they really did ball gag the damane' to 'that tidal wave sure is symbolic']

I love hearing the Old Tongue!!! [in my notes I wrote "One Power" XD but this is what I meant]

Interesting... Latra Posae Decumae is Tamyrlin?

Oh, that hurts, LTT trying to make the world safe for his kids.

This is the crystal spires and togas I was promised! It gives me Star Wars vibes.

The R.O.U.S.es are a myth, but the Man-Eating Fungus is very real

An Educational Field Trip With Moiraine Sedai

I'm shipping Perrin/Rand again I'm so sorry

Moiraine cutting Rand dead in the Fire Swamp like "we're not friends"

I love that we get Nyneave's tracking skills

Oh that is a cool effect (of Ishy's fireface zooming into his eyeball)

Ishy is kinda sexy

Wow that is extremely homoerotic

This is very Star Wars- first the AOL, then the dream confrontation in the swamp

Holy shit, Rand. Suicide to wake up? hooooo boy

lol I see they know how sa'angreal were made in this turning XD (oh interesting... is that a saidin one? How would the tower know? I guess there is precedent for sa'angreal that use both halves of the OP.)

Nyneave's block appears to be... sort of a thing?

I feel like Rand and Moiraine both walk into traps deliberately

loool, that you, Elaida? Moiraine had a block? ooooof Moiraine :(

bad things afoot for Nyn (or she will explode again)

is Lord Yakota supposed to be Ingtar? Are we getting Ingtar?

COOL love a decorative pit

ah, the beginning of Rand's Complex

glad we got the shot of Lan and Malkier

Oh dear. Is... Lord Agelmar the darkfriend? or just... that specific brand of Borderland Masculinity? So hard to say

Darkfriends... in... the White Tower libraries? Are you going to unpack that statement, Moiraine? BLACK AJAH Y'ALL

my HEART when Rand touches the Ancient Aes Sedai symbol

lotta babies in this ep

YESSSSSSSS FLICKER FLICKER

ok, she got shielded, only shielded, phew... hopefully

I prefer this defense of Fal Dara to the book version (although I have to ask... are they cribbing from @asha-mage‘s work again? because this reminded me of parts of Of The Mountain Home.)

great music

Nyneave's significant glance at the Malkieri woman, heh

Perrin & Loial having a heart to heart

Rand like "this characterization is bad, Egwene would never give up her career"

Rand is so clever, but Ishy knows what's in his head

Moiraine is a stabby bitch and I love her

Wtf is buried under the throne?

ooof I hope the darkfriend isn't Amalisa

and this is where Rand is like 'shit, the list of people who can teach me channeling is very small and one of them might be the Dark One'

Ishy, tuck in your damn shirt

Aaaaaaay it's Fain

What? The fucking horn is there?

Circles!

Oh damn, Perrin the Hornsounder? They wouldn't... would they?

Saidin is clean! oh wait... oh, Rand

Amalisa, I hope you know what you are doing and that it isn't evil

Ok, that is some cool shit ...but Amalisa has gone power-mad, whoopsie Love how it kinda parallels the battle in Rand's head rn

This Rand drinks his respect women juice (for now, anyway)

awww sweetie

oh no, are they gonna make Perrin stab Lady Amalisa?

SHIT Padan Fain daggered Loial & Nyn is... hopefully not burned out

aaaaaaay it's gonna be the Hunt for the Horny next season

NO MY BABY MAT, stumbling drunkenly in a dark alley with a stab wound [like, typical, but not what I want for him, you know?]

Rand is off to brood and maybe grab Mat

Perrin is losing at head games, as per usual

Moiraine is staring at the pretty rocks & lying for her boy

SHIT. I was afraid of [her being stilled]. Nyn better be ok, because who else is gonna heal stilling? [Spouse thinks she's just got a tied-off shield since Lan isn't showing signs of the bond being actually broken]

Damn look at Egg with the fancy fixing [eyes emoji]

ooops, the dark one's prison broke the nice china

that's so many [ships] JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

THE SEANCHAN THEME

HOLY SHIT [this response encompasses everything from 'that armor is awesome' to 'they really did ball gag the damane' to 'that tidal wave sure is symbolic']

Post-show, me discussing how I wasn't expecting the taint: "I mean, the corruption. We can't call it the taint anymore." My spouse, immediately: "The Seanchan call it the taint."