#doriath discourse

[eri-pl]

Silm reread 20: the Rains of Casaremírë (AKA: the Fall of Doriath)

Morgoth is not tired being evil. Or satisfied. Generally he won't chill out. Also, he hates Melian&Thingol especially (but this text is from the Grey Annals. the Annals of Aman put Turgon as "Morgoth's main problem"). So, he directs Húrin at them.

Hurin is suspicious of being freed (good thinking!), but what can he do? Nothing. He leaves. Also, he is let out with a sword, which is… making sure that nobody will trust him and everyone will assume he is a thrall. Also, Morgoth's minions respect him.

[Ugh, this must have been really weird for Húrin. The self-doubt. Am I a thrall unknowingly?]

He is not, but he is followed. So, Gondolin. Turgon is doubtful at Thorondor. He changes his mind but too late, Húrin leaves. Oh, and he curses this area. (Yes, I will bold each time someone curses)

Morwen dies, depression and despair, he blames everyone.

A reference to a "seer and harper from Brethil". So, Men do have seers. I mean, I knew they do because Adanel iirc… but this wasn't fully canon… also that one prophecy is stupid and I will keep complaining about it…

Also, a mention of "the days of the wrath of the Valar" reshaping the shores, so the War of Wrath was named after the Valar's wrath? Who weren't even there personally? Huh.

Húrin kills Mîm, at the gate of Nargothrond. Interesting. Also, it is said that it's public knowledge who betrayed Túrin, so — oh wait. No. He knows that from Morgoth, not from gossip. OK. So I still have no idea whether Túrin knew.

Thingollo is polite and respectful, but Húrin offends him and accuses him of causing Finrod's death (he's not completely wrong) and of mistreating his wife and daughter + throws at him the Casaremírë (Nauglamir).

Thingollo is still polite and takes the offense calmly and kindly. <3

Melian dispells Morgoth's magic on Húrin, and he apologizes.

And gives the necklace to Thingollo anyway. Which ends up being a bad idea. Also, it wasn't his to give. the dragon stole it from Orodreth, Mîm stole it again, and Húrin, whose son had owed money to Mîm (because of his promise of weregild. And yes, I think this makes it … not more evil as a choice, because Húrin did not know, but more impactful, more problematic metaphysically) killed Mîm and stole it again.

And Thingollo (who knew Finrod and tbh should feel a little guilty about his death) instead of starting to think "hmm, who should inherit after Finrod now?" takes it. Which may be a culture thing tbh. It is medieval-ish-something world. You don't disrespect gifts by giving them away, you just take them. Maybe. I'm not an expert.

Still, he could have at least talked to Húrin about "you know, Finrod's family…". BTW is there any left? Orodreth dead, Finduilas dead…. Gil-Galad if he is Orodreth's son. Galadriel! OK, so there was someone.

Húrin allegedly maybe threw himself in the sea. Anyway he is out of our scope, one way or another.

So… It comes into Thingollo's mind to join two problematic pieces of treasure (a dragon-tainted, stolen necklace and a Silmaril) into one. Also, the Silmaril grows precious to him—

OK, sidenote. The Silmarils are not evil, but clearly they are too much for almost everyone. People either grow obsessed or die quickly. But not all people. Earendil surely didn't. I guess it depends on personality (the obsession) and on fate-type (the dying).

So, he can not keep it in the deepest part of his treasury anymore— wait, what? You kept the gem in a cage too? Silmarils need proper enviroment, they need light and space and enrichment! Thingollo, you are as bad as a Silmaril owner as Feanáro!

OK, I already made a post on this.

The Dwarves. They too get super obsessed and want the stuff: both the necklace made by their ancestors and the Silmaril. But they keep it in secret.

They finish their work, it's beautiful, another sort-of-confirmation that the Silmaril's own light is white (it reflecting in gems into various colors make it even more beautiful. So. It doesn't have many colors on its own.)

The Dwarves finally talk to Thingol, but not honestly, he realizes that they want the gem, gets overwhelmed by emotions (I imagine Thingol having a switch in his brain: "be polite to Men" <-> "be polite to Dwarves" but he can't do both for some reason and switching it takes a long time) and he mocks them. He provokes them, they are greedy, everyone is emotionally disregulated and should go have some quiet time, they kill him and escape with the treasure.

We get an epitaph for Thingollo, canon confirmation that marrying Maiar is not a thing (except Thingol) and the last thing he looks at before death is the Silmaril.

I have a feeling that Námo will have some words to tell you, my guy. Not as many as to others, but still. Not great.

Anyway, Elves chase the Dwarves and kill most of them, the Dwarves tell a not-entirely-false-but-not-too-true-either story of what happenned to their kinsmen, they go to war.

Melian meditates, we get a flashback. She knows Doriath will soon fall, because the Girdle is now gone, because… ok, let's start this from the beginning.

So this is really cool but also pretty unique in terms of fantasy tropes. When Melian married Thingol, she accepted... ok, I need this in English.

For Melian was of the divine race of the Valar, [...] for love of Elwë Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Ilúvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda.

So the marriage is what's tying her to her material form (she had taken it at will back then but now, with Valinor being closed and all that I feeel like she normaly wouldn't be able to do it in ME, she was only able to be there embodied because the marriage to Thingol sort of anchored her)

In that form she bore to him Lúthien Tinúviel; and in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda, and by the Girdle of Melian was Doriath defended through long ages from the evils without. But now Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian.

So. Only the fact of being anchored to matter gave her the ability to keep the Girdle up. I know some Maiar can do things with matter anyway, but as I said, I suppose it's either a) because they're evil and/or b) because a Vala let them do it … in general, they are bound by something. And regardless of how the other Maiar do it, Melian lost the ability to keep the Girdle.

Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn in that time from the forests of Neldoreth and Region, and Esgalduin the enchanted river spoke with a different voice, and Doriath lay open to its enemies.

[Thank you, Reddit, for having all the quotes I need!]

Again, the "it came to pass" strongly suggests to me that it's not something she did, it's something that happenned to her as part of her nature.

Also, she removes herself, and goes to mourn in Lorien and is out of the story. (I'm sure they get back togetherwhen Thingol was reembodied — and that he was— and no matter how the canon feels about this I want them to have more children, who just live in Valinor in this slightly odd social position of "not a Maia but not fully not-a-Maia" and genrally have some happiness and low-stakes family drama)

The Dwarves invade, all Doriath is confused, Mablung dies protecting the Silmaril (still, he seems quite normal about it for someone who touched it twice).

Also "it's the saddest of all sad events of the Old Days" — seriously, Grey Annals? Again, for AoA it would be Tears Unnumbered. I should enjoy the diversity of opinions in the text. But I don't. It sounds like the authors are arguing with each other.

Dior and Nimloth mentioned, but that's all. On one hand, we were told that B&L never spoke to the living after their reembodiment. On the other, they do have a son and, it seems, a company. Who raised Dior? Like, who spoke with him?

Is it silent spooky B&L surrounded by a company of Elves who behave normally? Or do they live separately, in a distance and gave dior to be taught bu the Elves who live on this island, but separately from them? I can't imagine it.

Or is the "spoke to no one" thing just poetic exageration?

Hmm.. in chapter 20 only Beren is mentioned and it says "no mortal spoke to him" which may mean just Men. I'm not sure. Anyway this is weird and seems somwhat incoherent.

Anyway, the news spread quickly in the forest (how? Mycoryzal networks?) so Beren learns more or less what happenned and he and Dior go to the rescue (such is the wording in my book. So I guess they assumed there Dwarves were still attacking someone or intending to. Makes sense.) A big group of Green Elves joins them.

They ambush the Dwarves (Huh. Ambush. When Nargothrond did it, it was dishonorable... Huh. I think there is a lot in this story remaining from the older versions, back when the Dwarves were evil, or at least evil-ish and not deserving the full human Eruhini rights. Because technically they are not. Anyway. I do not like the inconsistent attitude about ambushes.) Also, the Ents help them. So i guess it is a good fight or at least Yavanna supports it (could you, please, respect your husband's children a bit more?), or at least the trees think Beren is cool.

This is weird. And seems off. And I will assume it is a part of text that Tolkien didn't fully update to the last version of his lore.

Beren killd Dwarf king (chieftain? whatever we call him), the king curses the whole Doriath treasure.

Aaaaand Beren looks at Feanor's gem with fascination. Here we go again. And washes it clean of blood in the river. (I considered adding a RoP gif here but let's not slabder Beren. still, bad vibe.)

At least he's got enough common sense to drown the rest of the treasure. But not this one. (A pity. Feanorians would fish it out, Deagol&Smeagol-style and be happy. Or something.)

He brings the Casaremírë+Silmaril to Lúthien, and she's so pretty in it. And amazing. And the land is fertile and full of light and looks like Valinor.

So…. why do they keep the Silmaril? For Beren, I think it's the standard "it's pretty, Luthien has suffered so much [chose mortal life and all that], she deserves it". Or maybe even "I deserve some beauty for all my pain", but i don't think he goes this low. It's just … slightly less than perfect attitude. "My loved ones deserve some beauty after all they suffered so I am going to give it to them". Also, why would he want to give it to Feanorians, who tried to kill him and threatened Thingol. (And fought a really bad battle but whatever)

No matter how much you love the Feanorians, please remember that this is a simple forest guy, ok, taught by the Sindar, but still. He probably knows nothing about the Oath, never met the Feanorians, has no idea of their mental state and their anguish, and not necessarily internalizes the whole "they are fighting Morgoth and dying on it" part.

Characters do have limited knowledge and did not read the book.

But… yes, I think him taking the jewel was not the best choice.

Lúthien? That's trickier. I think if she knew how much it means for the Feanorians, she would give it to them, because look how she told Beren to not kill Celegorm (or was that Curufin?). So either she knows that Silmaril+Feanorians = bad idea, for some reason (from Melian. Because foresight. But this would require Melian's foresight to change its opinion on the matter at some point, which we have no information about).

Maybe she just trusted that Beren knows what he's doing and didn't want to refuse his gift? And she had no idea how this looks for the Feanorians (remember, very likely nobody knows about the Oath, and it seems like the Feanorians told Thingol "it is ours" and "we will consider you our enemy" as their only reasons).

Melian advised Thingol to give the Silmaril back, but was Lúthien even present at this conversation? Or if she was, maybe her own foresight told her that this advice applied to Thingol then but not to her now?

Seriously, with how Lúthien is presented, I can't imagine her keeping the Silmaril if she believed that that Melian would advise against it or how much it means for the Feanorians. She seems to me a very compassionate person, and one who cares about her mothers opinions.

On the other hand, is Lúthien wearing the Silmaril such a bad thing? It came from Beren's not-great decision, but with how it's written, I don't think it's unilaterally bad. The Feanorians do not have a problem with it, or at least do not attack her (out of fear), the land is beautiful and sure this sounds egoistical, but maybe a brief moment of bliss was necessary? The Silmaril spent many years with Morgoth, then in Thingollo's treasury (why do they all keep them locked?!? i have thoughts about it. anyway) and is now sad. Yes, they do canonically have feelings. I don't think it's corrupted, but it is sad. Maybe it needs to recharge, before it will be able to become the star of hope.

I have no idea but I think like this year should contribute something positive. Otherwise the story feels odd and incoherent again. Or, at beast, feels like Tolkien … I'm not sure how to phrase it. Very slightly betrayed his story for a moment of nostalgia? The thing that the Valar did when they made Valinor. Settled for a known happiness of the past over … something? unknown?

OK, end of very speculatory ramblings, back to the reading.

And this is the moment when Dior decides to leave his parents. I think he wants to help the Elves in Doriath organize and rebuild. He is their king, after all. Still it's an interesting contrast: the island becomes a paradise and Dior leaves. I think it speaks well of him. He goes to work, putting duty above "mom pretty with shiny rock". And he restores Doriath successfully.

He gets the Silmaril, looks at it for a long time (unclear if this is bad looking or normal looking), mourns his parents, then puts on the necklace and becomes the most beautiful guy ever, even counting the Maiar. (dear authors of the Grey Annals, someone would lik a talk with you. He said his name is Mairon.)

Gossip starts… How is the gossip among Elves so effective and fast, with their numbers decreased by all the wars?

Anyway gossip, and the Feanorians. (+ a confirmation that no Elf would fight Lúthien). They send messangers to Dior, who does not answer. that's weird. What is his mental process at this point? Is Dior even socialized properly?

He could say "ok, but give me some time to mourn", or "no, you jerks, you attacked my parents and now dare to make demands" or many other things, but he does not answer. (Or is it: the Polish translation strikes again)

It must have been weird. Also: poor messangers. What a stressful job. :(

Instead of thinking "maybe we should wait till he grows up more" or "maybe we should talk to him in person", C&C get the bright idea of "let's kill them all as we told Thingollo we would do!"

And so they do.

And so they die.

Both sides lose (Doriath is destroyed with only a few survivors, but the Feanorians still have zero Silmarils, but now they have 3 dead brothers), so I guess Morgoth wins, but not really, because he doesn't get this Silmaril either and this will come to bite him later.

[polutrope]

"Wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalië? Lo! in Palisor my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke. Get thee gone, O Úrin..."

'Turambar and the Foalóke' in The Book of Lost Tales Part II. Written c. 1919.

"How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuiviénen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?"

'Of the Ruin of Doriath', The Silmarillion, ed. Christopher Tolkien. Published 1977.

So I think something that gets left out of the Thingol discourse (note: no Thingol bashing on this post please), is the textual history of the chapter 'Of the Ruin of Doriath'. Most of the published Silmarillion very closely follows drafts written by Tolkien. Not so this chapter, which Tolkien only ever got to in his first draft of the Silmarillion in the historical summary tradition as we know and love it, i.e., the 1930 Qenta Noldorinwa, where he wrote:

Thingol ... scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls.

(Consider that the Thingol of the Narn i hin Hurin, often cited as a gentler and more complex character, was written in the 1950s.)

The only other time he touched it in more expansive prose format was in the late 1910s, when Doriath was Artanor and Thingol was Tinwelint and the Silmarils barely mattered. He again mentions these events in brief annalistic form in the Tales of Years, most lately revised in the 1950s.

502 The Nauglamir is wrought of the treasure of Glaurung, and the Silmaril is hung thereon. Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves who had wrought for him the necklace.

That's it. That's all Christopher Tolkien and Guy Gavriel Kay (hired to help write this gap in the narrative) had to work with. So they took Tolkien's words where they could get them, and here you can see they took a speech Tinwelint (later Thingol, but not the same character as he developed) spoke to Úrin (later Húrin, but also not the same character) and adapted it to another context, i.e., Thingol's conflict with the Dwarves over the Nauglamir.

In The War of the Jewels (HoMe 11), Christopher writes a revealing commentary on how he put together this chapter, and expresses regrets on how it was done. He admits, "How [my father] would have treated Thingol's behaviour towards the Dwarves is impossible to say."

Now, I really dislike the 'Christopher did him dirty' line of thinking. Working through HoMe, it's obvious Christopher did the best, most faithful-to-JRRT job anyone could have done putting his father's drafts into a cohesive narrative. But, in this case, Christopher (and Guy Kay) did tinker with Thingol's character in a way that, I think, he regretted, or at least questioned. And, unfortunately, the way Thingol speaks to the Dwarves here -- a speech Tolkien did not write -- has become a huge sticking point in fandom conversations.

Yes, it's canon that Naugrim means "stunted folk" in Sindarin. There's definitely tension and mutual disdain between Elves and Dwarves, no question about it. Does Thingol call the Dwarves an "uncouth race" and claim superiority as a lord of Elves in the published Silmarillion? Yes, he does. And so yes, it's canon and it's part of Thingol's character. But it's not the only part of Thingol's character, which is the point I always see the (shall we say) appreciators of nuance returning to.

But I've wanted to make this post about the textual history of what I would consider Thingol's worst moment for a while, since I've not seen it included in the conversation before.

"Canon" in Tolkien's legendarium is hard to define, as we know. (Personally, that's precisely what makes it so creatively inspiring to me.) But I think there are some places where it's harder to define than others, and this episode with Thingol and the Dwarves is one of them.

Take it as you will.

[thelordofgifs]

In light of recent interesting discourse about Beren and Lúthien's Silmaril theft, and the Fëanorions' priorities in the lead-up to Nirnaeth and after, I started wondering how things might have changed if B&L had managed to steal two Silmarils rather than one. Would pulling the Union together be harder with only one jewel left to draw focus in Angband?

Then as soon as I thought about it some more, I realised the most inevitable path diverged earlier than that.

Then I started writing a fic, got 400 words in, and realised I wanted to actually figure out what happened first. So here's a half (or potentially a smaller fraction) of a sort of bullet point fic/plan/thing, which may or may not get properly written up later. First I need to work out where to go from here.

Angrist was forged by the greatest of the Dwarf-smiths in the master-workshops of Nogrod. It cuts two Silmarils from Morgoth's iron crown before the blade snaps, and Morgoth stirs in his enchanted sleep.

Beren passes one Silmaril to Lúthien, and they run for it.

Carcharoth still meets them, snarling, at the gate. Beren still holds out a Silmaril to ward him off. His hand still gets bitten off.

But when the Eagles come for them, and Lúthien clambers sobbing onto Thorondor's back, she clasps a Silmaril in her hand.

The Eagles bear them towards Doriath, and the Treelight undiminished shines out over Dorthonion and Gondolin.

In chilly Himring, Maglor is shaken awake from nightmares of fire and smoke by his eldest brother, who drags him out of bed and towards the window. "Look! Is that not a Silmaril that shines now in the North?"

Maglor recognises it, of course. Moreover, he recognises the size and shape of Eagles in flight, even at a distance. Recognises, too, that as often as not they bear doom itself upon their great feathered backs.

(His father's jewel stinging his Oath awake, his brother's emaciated bleeding body wrapped in Fingon's cloak - they all mean failure.)

"Thingol's daughter and the mortal must have succeeded," he says. "What can we do?"

Maedhros and Maglor, you see, are Not Happy with the news out of Nargothrond.

That Celegorm wanted to force an elf-maid to wed against her will, after what they heard befell Aredhel—

That Curufin could turn against his favourite cousin, and betray him to his death—

"I am afraid," says Maedhros, "of what it will make us do. What it will make us become."

"We could ignore it," says Maglor, whose first response is always inaction. "Let it go to Doriath—" But it is hard even to finish the sentence, with the Oath choking his words.

And there is a bigger problem: Celegorm and Curufin, who are sleeping now (it is only Maedhros who can be relied upon to pace the fortress by night), will not do so forever. They have already attacked Thingol's daughter once - will they do so again, before she can pass into the safety of her mother's Girdle?

"We have to get to Doriath before they do," says Maedhros, and wonders when his little brothers became the threat to be outpaced.

"And then what?" asks Maglor, who never shies from difficult questions.

Maedhros gives him one of his quick strange smiles. "This is how it works, you know," he says. "Huan has turned from Tyelko. Tyelpë has repudiated Curvo. It turns you into the worst version of yourself, and then it strips away the best thing you have left."

Maedhros has ridden out to claim a Silmaril before, and lost all of himself in the process.

Maglor, too, has been offered all he ever wanted - his dearest brother, returned to him - and turned away for the sake of the Oath he renewed at his father's deathbed.

They are both afraid of what they could become.

They ride out from Himring anyway, swiftly and secretly, before the dawn.

Meanwhile, Thorondor sets Beren and Lúthien down on Doriath's southern border.

Huan comes to join them, and with the power of the Silmaril, Beren is healed sooner than he might have been, otherwise.

The Quest is fulfilled. Beren has no reason to stay away from Thingol's house.

Instead of wandering in the wilds, the lovers return to Menegroth, present a Silmaril, and promptly get married.

Thingol is very surprised (and overjoyed) to see them; the last news he had of Lúthien was that she had vanished from Nargothrond.

In fact, he's just sent out a couple of messengers, led by Mablung Heavy-hand, with a scathing letter to Maedhros Fëanorion demanding his aid in finding the princess.

North of the Girdle: "Hey, isn't that Maedhros Fëanorion?"

"Sure is," says Mablung, who was at the Mereth Aderthad.

"Hail, Mablung of Doriath!" calls Maedhros, who never forgets a face. "What news from King Thingol?"

Well, there isn't news as such. Just... fury.

Maedhros considers the merits of keeping his cards close to his chest versus the dire diplomatic situation he's currently in, and opts to share what they saw from Himring, and what it bodes for Beren's success.

He decides not to share that Lúthien was definitely with Beren, which he knows because his brothers attacked her.

Maglor is not sure how stopping to chat with an Iathren marchwarden is going to get them closer to a Silmaril, but he isn't in the habit of arguing with Maedhros.

Anyway, before the conversation can wrap up, a marauding werewolf appears.

Right. Carcharoth.

The Iathrim make the sensible call and scramble up some trees. Maglor follows a beat later.

Noldor don't climb trees very often. It isn't one of the skills Maedhros has had cause to practice one-handed.

Not that it matters, because he's frozen where he stands, eyes wide and bright and thoughtful.

This is unusual. Maedhros would not be the most renowned warrior of the Noldor if he were constantly dissociating in the midst of battle.

He saves the dissociation for after the battle, thank you.

The wolf is almost upon him.

Well, thinks Maglor, about time I did some saving for a change.

Maglor is not Lúthien. Does he need to be? He knows enough about madness, and enough about torment. He knows how to sing the suffering to sleep.

He drops down from his perch to begin a lullaby.

Carcharoth slows down when he sings, and comes to a momentary halt, and Maglor takes the time to hiss, "Nelyo, run—"

"They burned him," Maedhros breathes, still with that bright faraway look in his eyes that means he is half-lost in memory. "His hands were black and ruined. No evil thing may touch them."

The wolf lunges.

[I want to kill Maglor off here but I'm a coward. so.]

Carcharoth savages Maglor's leg and he collapses.

That brings Maedhros back to himself.

Mablung and his party aren't heavily armed. They were only meant to be messengers, after all. They get a few shots in at the wolf, who runs off, still maddened.

Maglor isn't moving isn't talking and there's so much blood—

(to be continued)

[eloquentsisyphianturmoil]

A little something concerning a line of Tolkien’s—

"Earendil took Elwing to wife, and she bore him two children"

This says no more of Tolkien's view on marriage than the fates of the Feanorians say of his view on punishment - and certainly neither say aught of how he wants us to view them.

The silmarilion is explitly devoid of allegory. Its archaic style is deeper than wording and permeates the presentation of the story itself, most relevant to this discourse being the genre's effect on morality and punishment.

The simarillion places an emphasis on actions as morally absolute regardless of circumstance, and inaction as morally neutral, a position commonly taken most notably by the church (just look at the abortion controversy) and prevalent in literature of the kind Tolkien is mimicking.

This mindset should not pass into a modern evaluation of the situations concerned; the phrase "that doesn't make it right” is overused and usually one-sided. It was not right for Celegorm to attack Doriath, yet it also was not right for Thingol to refuse aiding the Union of Maedhros. The motivations, familial history, for each action is the same, and perhaps those fallen at Doriath would equal those who may have been saved had Thingol offered his forces. These characters should be judged as much for what they do as for what they don't do.

[nerdanelparmandil]

Not to get into discourse™, but the first time I approaced the Silmarillion was after reading LOTR and The Hobbit and coming out of it with a big crush on Legolas and a desire to know more about the Elves. I had no idea what/who the Noldor were, so my ideal Elf was someone like Thranduil, a king of the forest, ancient and wise but a little uncanny. In the Silmarillion I found Thingol, and Doriath, and the link to Oropher and Thranduil, and they satisfied my desire for more Elves like Legolas. Yes, Feanor stood out, and he was magnificent, but his sons? My brain could not even distinguish them, aside from labelling them as the Bad Guys (after Morgoth). Thingol seemed wise if at times stiff, but the narrative shrouds him in awe, and that's how I saw him. The ultimate Elf, if you will.

Then, some 6 or 7 years later, I discovered the fandom here on Tumblr, and it's been vital for my obsession with the Silmarillion. I assigned faces and traits to all the characters, and suddenly the Noldor seemed more interesting to me, I got more emotionally involved in their side of the story, and by and by the Sons of Feanor became interesting.

Personal bias, expectations, different phases of life - they all influence how and to whom we get attached in a story. Between the first time I read the Silmarillion and the last, for me, more than 15 years have passed. I grew up a lot, I changed. The text changed with me.

If I were to say, objectively, who was right™, I'd say perhaps Earendil, and Elwing, they saved Middle Earth, and Idril, who saw their demise before anyone, or Finarfin who did not rebel, or anyone else the narrative shows us to be "in the right" for the greater good.

But I don't necessarily read and write about them. For me, the point is never "who is right in the narrative" - that is kind of the whole point of the text. I'm invested in other characters and episodes because they speak to me on a more emotional lever, they compel me, they are interesting and I want more of them on the page.

I can like fandom interpretations that clash with the canon, not because I think the canon is wrong or I don't like it, but because my brain goes "mmmhh interesting!!!" and that's it.

The fact that we can debate over and over - who was right, who was wrong, who got to have a Silmaril, who had no right to it - is just a testament to how complex the characters are, how the narrative, despite showing us clearly who fought for the greater good and who fell in the process, always contains a grain of compassion and empathy for the fallen, never condemning them without mercy.

It makes the story more painful, but all the more beautiful.

[imakemywings]

probably didn't word this right, cause I'm seething so much but

honestly while I do like the "kidnap fam" since canonically the book says there was great love between the twins and maglor, I wouldn't go as far as boasting that as an achievement of the feanorians (like some posts and fics do) seeing as they destroyed doriath and then destroyed sirion, which is full of refugees cause like suddenly saving the twins (sorry elrond and elros, love you tho) absolves them of the sins of the many innocent people they killed like ??? it's a good thing the twins grew up nice tho I never gave that credit to the feanorians, I always assume since earendil was nice af, they inherited that from him

some would even go as far as portray the murderers as the good guys while the mother whose life was destroyed TWICE by these murderers is implied to be the fucking villain like they drove the twins mother into committing suicide (and I know some of y'all wouldn't admit that because despite whining about having less female characters in silm, y'all still hate complex female characters like elwing) and y'all were like THAT HORRENDOUS BITCH And the fact that there are less fic of elwing reuniting with elronds family says so much lol

im sorry for the rant, because as someone who discovered silmarillion recently, this hate towards elwing and earendil was THE greatest disappointment I've ever encountered in the fandom

Oh don't apologize anon, I basically agree with all of this lol

I was stunned to come into this fandom after finishing the book and find out that Elwing and Earendil are controversial characters. Headcanons and AUs all you want, but the book makes it very clear they are heroes and Tolkien portrays them as heroes (albeit tragic ones)--Earendil slaying Ancalagon and Elwing convincing the Teleri to aid the war effort is more proof of that.

The Feanorians are the closest thing we have to true protagonists in the book and they're fan favorites, so there's a tendency to see other characters (Turgon, Thingol, Dior, Elwing, etc.) through the lens of how well the Feanorians like them or get along with them. If a character has conflict with the Feanorians, they're likely to get the villain treatment in certain circles of the fandom no matter how reasonable their actions were.

Under the cut because I rambled also lol

Above the cut I'm just going to link here to my tag for Elwing metas from other people.

There's also in some cases, I think, a discomfort with rooting for characters who have done so much wrong (see: "stanning villains" discourse), so in some places there's an effort to downplay what the Feanorians did because of course you can't like a character who is genuinely terrible! So this is where we get into making Dior and Elwing look worse than they are, so that the Feanorians look less bad by comparison (here we get the "good thing the twins were saved from their shitty and neglectful mother!" ...by the dudes who just slaughtered their entire hometown).

This is made easier by the fact that since Silm is told in such an epic fairytale style, we as readers don't have to confront the personal level of the violence the Feanorians committed. We don't see Elwing's reaction to the twins being taken hostage (besides being told that "great was [her] sorrow" for their captivity), we don't see Dior and Nimloth discussing the decision not to respond to the Feanorians' threats, we don't get a description of what Menegroth looked like after it was sacked by the Feanorians, we aren't told about Elrond and Elros trembling in fear as they're taken away by these terrible, violent Elves who killed their grandparents and their uncles and just now their mother and who may very well kill them also. That makes it easier to gloss over the practical realities of what they did (which is why it's something I'm always interested in exploring in fic).

And you're right--there is a draw in the relationship between Elrond and Elros, and Maedhros and Maglor, just because it is so improbable that they would develop any affection at all for each other. And yet, a relationship can be loving and still abusive or unhealthy, and I just cannot buy that it was healthy for Elrond and Elros to be in Maglor's care. Given where Maedhros and Maglor are at this point, they are unlikely to be doing well mentally/emotionally, and even if they were, they can't just detach themselves in the twins' mind from being the monsters who have been haunting Thingol's line for generations (See: Kidnapping and attempted forced marriage of Luthien, attempted murder of Beren, threats to attack Doriath, the Second Kinslaying, killings of Dior and Nimloth, leaving Elured and Elurin to die of exposure in the woods, threats against Elwing, the Third Kinslaying, driving Elwing to suicide). There's also a significant level of cultural loss with Elrond and Elros, which Maedhros and Maglor simply do not have the knowledge to abate. E/E are deprived of being raised in either their maternal or paternal cultures, and with the virtual extinction of the Iathrim by the end of the Third Kinslaying, much of that knowledge is simply lost, and the few people who still hold it (Oropher and his people) are kept away from the twins. Is it any wonder Elrond becomes fascinated with collecting knowledge as an adult?

Personally, I see Maglor's having kept the twins (for however long you imagine, although most of us seem to picture until at least mid-adolescence, if not full adulthood) as a deeply selfish act. They could have released the twins to Gil-galad or Cirdan or Oropher--but they chose not to, for years. I think he loved them--and I think that's why he didn't want to let them go. I think the best and most redeeming thing Maglor ever did with the twins was allowing them to leave to join Gil-galad.

And I do agree with what you said there that Elrond and Elros grew up kindly and generous more in spite of their childhood than because of it.

The Feanorians' descent into villainy in pursuit of their oath is, imo, key to their arc, and one of the most interesting things about it, so I'm not here to downplay it. Even Maedhros and Maglor realize how far gone they are! Maglor himself calls continuing to follow the oath "evil" and says that "less evil shall we do in the breaking" and Maedhros stands with the Silmaril in the end and sees that all the violence and horror he's committed has been for nothing and finds it so unbearable he is one of only two named Elves to ever commit suicide (the other being his victim, Elwing). He literally kills himself because he can't deal with what they've become (or at least, that's how I read it).

The other fascinating thing about these two is how at the end Maglor makes a couple efforts to turn away, to let go of the oath, to do something better--but he can never quite manage it. He's not willing to do it alone, and Maedhros won't do it with him, so he keeps himself stuck on this path until he's the only one left.

Rewriting them as characters who did nothing wrong deprives them of all their complexity. And honestly, you (not you you, anon) just sound like a clown when you're arguing they were justified in sacking a refugee camp because uwu property rights.

With Elwing especially I think there's also a misunderstanding about how exactly things were handled.

I think people forget that Elwing did not make the decision to keep the Silmaril alone--it was Elwing "and the people of Sirion." This was a group choice, not something Elwing imposed on them.

I think people forget the Sirionites believed the Silmaril was protecting them. This would have been especially relevant in the minds of two refugee groups who had both survived a brutal and bloody sack of their cities.

I think people don't realize that the correspondence between Elwing and Maedhros prior to the Third Kinslaying all seems to have taken place during a single voyage of Earendil's. She tells the Feanorians she can't make a final decision on the Silmaril while Earendil (one of the rulers of this city!) is at sea--but they don't wait for his return, they just attack.

And of course, once she and Earendil reached Aman, they were literally prohibited from returning to Middle-earth, so it's not like they made a choice not to come back for the kids.

Earendil and Elwing are forced to look at the big picture--that after the Third Kinslaying, even if they did return a) How exactly are they supposed to get their kids back from these notably brutal and ruthless warlords?; b) Morgoth is still there. Doing his Morgoth thing. Someone has to make it to Aman to get them to intercede. If Earendil and Elwing turned home instead of continuing West, it would be dooming the rest of the continent--yes, their kids included--to eventual destruction by Morgoth. The fact that Elrond and Elros are able to live so long and raise such prosperous realms is directly related to Earendil and Elwing's decision to keep trying to reach Aman.

You might find it reassuring how in LotR how much connection Elrond is given and expresses with Earendil and Elwing. Clearly he still views them as his parents and if he harbored any resentment (which honestly wouldn't be unreasonable as a child/teenager with a less mature understanding of the situation), it's gone by then.

And finally I just think there's a general fannish fixation on the concept of found family, so people want to force Kidnap Fam into that dynamic so badly they'll completely rewrite Maedhros and Maglor to be E/E's "true" family and ignore all of the horror of what they did leading up to literally kidnapping the twins.

ALL of which is a long-winded way of saying: yeah! you're right.

[serregon]

broke: pitting the Fëanorians against the Doriathrim, Fëanorian stans demonizing the Doriathrim and Doriath stans demonizing the Fëanorians, discourse over who has the True rights to the Silmaril, kidnap dads vs Elwing discourse

woke: the Fëanorians and the Doriathrim should kiss

[disorganisedautodidact]

Was sorely tempted to join in on the Elwing discourse / kidnap fam discourse that’s been going around, but honestly my main complaint to a lot of the discoursers boils down to „ffs stop complaining about the way other people enjoy their favourite characters and just make a post about how you interpret them instead, and let people have their fun“, so I’m following my own advice and making my own post about my current Elwing headcanons (subject to me changing my mind in a week or two because I had / saw another idea I liked). Where I mention other takes I’ve seen, I’m doing so to clarify my point via what I don’t mean, not to criticize anyone.

- Elwing’s early life was pretty much shaped by the experience of her home being destroyed and her family slaughtered when she was only a toddler, and then they lived a probably pretty precarious life in a refugee settlement and as a very young adult many things happening to that settlement became her respondibility. Her mental health probably wasn’t great, and I don’t think anyone in first age Beleriand had access to therapy except for Maedhros’ former thrall self-help group in Himring. This doesn’t mean her life was a complete horror show all of the time – I like to think she found some joy in her friendship and later romance with Eärendil, in learning and discovering her talents, in helping people … – but I think any serious portrayal of Elwing should take her trauma into account (maybe she was drinking a lot? maybe she was sometimes aggressive without a reason that others could see? maybe she just had terrible nightmares or couldn’t stand certain foods because they were what she ate on her last night in Doriath…. (also give me Elwing and Eärendil learning each other’s trauma responses and helping each other deal, btw)), and I think it probably affected her decision-making and her relationships with others, to a degree.

- it’s important for me to take into account how young Elwing was, although of course we can’t quite tell exactly how young she was – half-elven aging is notoriously weird, but honestly even humans are pretty young, at twenty-something, to take on a leadership role in a situation like that, and be in need of more guidance than Elwing had at the time. And I do think Elwing was „younger“ than a human would have been at that age. Elven children develop faster than human children cognitively, but slower physically and emotionally, so there’s alredy a lot of potential messiness with even „simple“ half-elves like Eärendil. And Elwing was more than half elven, with a decent chunk of Maia thrown in. We have no idea how she might have aged, but it’s entirely possible that she and Eärendil were at pretty different developmental stages at the same age, and also that no-one, including themselves, quite understood exactly how mature either of them were at any particular point. Young people tend not to have a good grasp on their own maturity levels (source: I’ve been a young person) and no-one around them had much experience with half-elves (ok, some of the Doriathrim might have known Dior well enough to be relevant for this, but Dior also had a different mix of elf, maia and human genetics and might well have aged at a different pace than his children). That has both fun comedic potential for childhood friends Eärendil and Elwing, and potential for dark, messy takes on their relationship if that’s your thing.

- I like to think Elrond and Elros inherited their healing talents from Elwing – maybe the whole „the hands of the king are the hands of a healer“ thing started not with Elros, but with Elwing! It was probably a very useful talent to have in late first age Beleriand, and perhaps one of the things that made the Gondolindrim in her settlement look to her as a leader rather than just their leader’s wife (the Doriathrim would have already accepted her as Thingol’s heir)

- speaking of which. ruling over a settlement of the remnants of two recently uprooted cultures as someone who has no roots in (in fact, may have inherited active opposition to) one of the cultures and lost the stable home of the other as a young child cannot have been easy, and Elwing was really young (see above). I simply can’t imagine she didn’t make plenty of mistakes and wasn’t a controversial figure (beloved, too, perhaps, but the two aren’t mutually exclusive). It’s possible she did very good work as a ruler and a healer! But that doesn’t mean she was in any way flawless. And she lived in a time when there were so many mistakes to be made and not a lot of good choices.

- Elwing was dealing with her own, probably significant, emotional issues, AND trying to hold together a settlement of refugees from at least two different cultures, AND parenting young twins by herself with Eärendil mostly off at sea. I headcanon that she loved the twins a great deal and raised them as best she could, but I also think she probably struggled to give Elrond and Elros enough of the kind of close, emotionally attuned attention that kids need, and the lack of which can seriously fuck a kid up. Being raised by a traumatised parent can be rough even if everyone involved is doing their best.

- which isn’t to say she wasn’t a loving parent. I do think she tried to spend as much time with them as she could, and that she made every decision with them in mind (not all of those decisions worked out well, but I do think she was trying). But she was alone in very different circumstances, and it’s not unreasonable to assume that she was often (physically or emotionally) absent or lost her temper and yelled sometimes.

- it’s also not to say that Elrond and Elros weren’t devastated to lose her.

- this post isn’t about my interpretation of the Oath of Fëanor, so I won’t go into it a lot, but basically I’m the „the Oath is a metaphysical compulsion that takes away free will to an extent, and while the silmaril was at Sirion, the Fëanorians were going to attack it sooner or later whether they wanted to or not“ camp. And I do think Maedhros told Elwing that and begged her to believe him.

- I also think Elwing had absolutely no reason to believe a single word he said.

- I think that she thought, wrongly but understandably, that the sons of Fëanor valued a shiny rock more than the lives of innocents, and acted accordingly

- possibly she could have prepared for the attack better, like sending her kids away to Balar or something, but to be fair, sending your children away, even for their own safety, is a heartbreaking decision to make and Elwing not doing so is understandable

- nor do I think it’s fair to say she abandoned her children – she was probably realising by now that she and the silmaril were what was putting them in danger, and figured she’d take that out of the equation

- but I do think the twins FELT abandoned, because when you’re six, you don’t understand that kind of reasoning

- as a teenager you might understand, but intellectually knowing your parents loved you and acted to keep you safe, and FEELING loved by them are two different things

- this isn’t the time to get into my kidnap fam headcanons, of which I have many, but in brief: I also think that it took Elrond and Elros a long time to feel safe with Maglor and Maedhros or feel affection for them, but I also think that, while it was their fault that Elrond and Elros were alone in the ruins of a destroyed settlement (yes the Oath forced them into the kinslaying, yes it’s still their fault for swearing it in the first place), once it got to that point taking the children with them was probably the best option. Gil-galad’s forces were still a ways away, and the survivors of Sirion were fleeing. What were they supposed to do, leave them sitting around among damaged buildings by themselves in a land swarming with orcs and other monsters? And once they were with them, I’m completely convinced that Maglor and Maedhros did the best they could to raise them, teach them, and not do further harm. Result: E&E were raised and loved by the least malicious of the monsters out there, and that’s messy and fucked up and fascinating.

- I don’t think adult Elrond would have been all „fuck Elwing, Maglor and Maedhros are my real parents“ (though sometimes fics like that can be cathartic for reasons that have nothing to do with the characters and everything to do with sometimes you just need to project some stuff on your blorbo), but I do think teenage Elrond might have thought it sometimes

- please join me in imagining adult Elrond, already working as a healer in the war of wrath, getting to Gil-galad’s camp and meeting people who knew his mother, who tell him about her work as a healer, and the complicated emotional journey he goes through from having that connection with her, a connection I think he grew to cherish

- also I think Elwing went through a lot of healing and growth in Valinor because 6000 years is a long fucking time – if 30 year old Elwing is old enough to have kids and be a leader, then imagine what she’s like at 6500 years.

- Elrond and Elwing and Eärendil reconnected in Valinor, but it likely took all of them some time to get to know each other again – but by then I think they were all in a place to want to try despite everything

- and by everything I do mean, among other things, Elrond’s genuine familial love for Maglor and Maedhros and his care for their followers who remained loyal to him after the war of wrath (the details of THAT would need another post that wouldn’t have all that much to do with Elwing, so I won’t go into it much more in a post about her). I think that Elwing and Eärendil would have found that hard to forgive, but I’m also convinced that after 6500 years they cared more about their son than about their (completely justified!) resentment.

- there would have been a different, but equally complicated journey for adult Elros – yeah, Eärendil and Elwing can’t go back to Middle Earth, but can they go to Númenor? who knows, but they could certainly send messages! (unlike Elrond, actually – I know fandom tends to ignore this because it’s Sad, but the appendices tell us that there was no contact between Númenor and Middle Earth until after Elros’ death – the twins might or might not have communicated through ósanwë, but there were no visits or letters)

-anyway this has been a loose collection of my Elwing headcanons as they are right now. I’ll probably make other posts about my ideas about kidnap fam and about the oath and the kinslayings, because I have a lot of thoughts on those topics, but I wanted this post to be mostly about Elwing

[anghraine]

I usually stay out of First Age Silm discourse these days, but some takes continue to be absolutely buckwild.

In this case: "the Arafinweans may not have killed people in the Kinslaying of Alqualondë, but they only had a problem with it because they didn't get their share of the loot boats and thus don't have any moral ground for objecting"

Yes, I'm sure their mother being Teleri had absolutely nothing to do with their resentment or general motivation. If only Tolkien had anywhere suggested that it was a factor—

He [Finarfin] wedded Eärwen, the daughter of King Elwë Þindikollo (in Sindarin Elu Thingol) of Doriath in Beleriand, for he was the brother of Olwë; and this kinship influenced their decision to join in the Exile, and proved of great importance later in Beleriand.

Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she [Galadriel] fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother’s kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fëanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could.

🤔

[finarfiniel]

this is more me musing on old posts than a proper headcanon,  but...  even though galadriel was technically fairly old by the time of the darkening of valinor & rebellion of the noldor,  she was comparatively immature  —  i think that if she and celeborn,  for example,  had met while she was still in aman,  the difference between their maturity levels would have been striking.  she grew up in aman,  sheltered from death or conflict  (beyond what occurred among her family.)  even míriels fading happened well before she was born  —  melkor killing finwë was the first time she had ever encountered death in her life.

and that was followed by what she perceived to be a deep betrayal at alqualondë,  when her cousins slaughtered her people and forced her to take up arms in their defense,  against her own family.  but she continued with the host of the noldor,  only for fëanor to betray and leave them  —  either to return to ask forgiveness of the valar,  or to cross the grinding ice that he had deemed impassible.  a crossing that took them years to make.

the point of all this is more or less that galadriel’s maturity  (and wisdom)  has been built through hardship?  finwë’s death and the first kinslaying + the betrayal at losgar were pivotal points in her life and development,  that had a significant impact on her as a person.

she’s a character that we see endure so much loss,  but she grows and thrives despite,  sometimes even because,  of it.

[tanoraqui]

some additional Beleriandrim vocabulary headcanons:

If you say “Nargothrond” to refer to anything more than the city itself and maybe the land (generally believed to be) immediately on top of it, you’re probably an ardent supporter of either Finrod particularly or the House of Finarfin in general. Nargothrondrim rangers did patrol and chase off/hunt various dangers all throughout West Beleriand (mostly spiders; periodic stray werewolves, giant vampire bats, etc), and collected some taxes/tithes in return, but...

If you’re not a strong Finrod supporter, you just say “West Beleriand”

In contrast, if you specify “Himlad”, “Thargelion”, “Estolad”, etc, you’re either generally apolitical or you’re just more invested in your own local area (especially if you’re Sindar, Silvan, etc), or maybe the lord thereof…

…But if you say “East Beleriand”, particularly in a sentence like, “In East Beleriand, we…”, you’re probably implying, perhaps subconsciously, that everything from Doriath to the Ered Luin in the north and Gelion in the south was one kingdom, ruled from the capital of Himring by the one true heir to the Kingship of the Noldor, who’d ordered you all to politely pretend that Fingolfin was King instead. So, being loyal subjects, you totally did. For sure. Mostly.

From the Gondolindrim who hid away before Thingol officially heard about the Kinslaying to the Teleri who are kin to the Sindar and Falathrim but speak a language more akin to Quenya, to the Avari to the here-to-help Vanyar & Amanyar Noldor to the Noldorin Beleriandrim who are freed from the Doom to sail home or be re-embodied...there’s more to focus on in the last First Age than language politics, even for Elves. But it becomes an Issue again in the early Second Age I’m sure, on both sides of the Sea...

I’m not sure how it all settles down, but with names, it’s like this: Elves have always had a strong cultural tradition of respecting a person’s right to choose what they are called (between fathername and mothername, at least; epessës a little less so). This carries over to whether or not you name yourself in...most debate is Sindarin vs. Quenya, but any language, really. The trend among Calaquendi Beleriandrim is: those who feel most changed by their experiences in Beleriand use Sindarin names; those who feel less changed return to Quenya. 

- If you AREN’T proper Beleriandrim and you go by a Sindar name, like it’s some sort of trendy thing or even if you’re really trying to make people feel comfortable, you will get side-eyed hard by everyone who was Actually There. This also applies to those who fought in the War of Wrath, though some who acquitted themselves particularly impressively are generally agreed to get a pass. 

- Many people also occupy a middle zone where they use a Sindar name more formally, but with close friends and family they knew in the Years of the Trees, names or nicknames in Quenya are still fine, because it’s like a childhood nickname

- Ironically, of the Calaquendi Beleriandrim, going by a Sindarin name is most common among the Fëanorians, once they start to re-embody. There’s a brief re-spike of Discourse when they start to return from Mandos in greater numbers (they generally take longer than the followers of Indis’s children) and a) find that this trend has started in their absence, and b) try to join it. But the “oh NOW you want to speak Sindarin” crowd loses traction in the face of the genuine repentance of the kinslayers and the general solidarity of the Beleriandrim.

[thelordofgifs]

Elwing and/or Earendil for the ask game please!

Elwing:

Elwing fascinates me. She went through so much and we really do learn so little about her. My take on the perennial Elwing discourse: she did nothing wrong and I don’t think hating on her is at all reasonable; while I’m not entirely convinced the Silmaril belonged to Dior at least, I REALLY can’t fault Elwing for refusing to give it up; she didn’t abandon her children wtf; had she given the Silmaril up, I don’t think Maedhros would have attacked Sirion, but she very much wasn’t to know that and nobody (actually nobody!) would have acted differently in her place. I think she was brave and complex and should be allowed to be angry and resentful and imperfect. Considering that she wasn’t much of a fan of the whole ship-voyaging thing, I wonder how she felt about growing up by the sea – did she remember Doriath? Was part of her always longing for the forests? How did she feel about the terrible weight of all the heroic ancestors she could barely recall? Did people compare her to Lúthien all the time and did she hate that or like it? Did she even want to keep the Silmaril or did she just see it as her duty to do so after her grandparents had fought for it and her parents died for it? Wasn’t it heavy? I really want to write a longfic about her exploring all this tbh – her traumatic childhood absolutely fascinates me.

The aesthetic of turning into a bird is perfection also.

Eärendil:

I think he’s great but fewer thoughts. Again obsessed with his childhood in Sirion. I don’t think he was victimised by Chris per se, moreso the incompleteness of everything in the legendarium: I wish we had more on his voyages!!

[josis-teacup]

This whole part about Elrond not being allowed to attend a meeting because "sorry elf lords only" makes even less sense when you remember that the showrunners have the rights to the appendices where it states right in the beginning what Elronds ancestry is and lists King Thingol of Doriath and King Turgon of Gondolin. They list kings and heroes and their accomplishments but apparently Show!Elrond is no more than some kind of secretary.

So they are not even in a position where they have to provide content despite lacking the rights. They just ignore the facts so they can present Elrond as some kind of underdog character. And that's what makes me angry.

I can excuse changes when they make sense storywise, when they are necessary to structure a story when adapting it to the screen, even when you have to fill holes because you don't have the rights.

But at this point they just want to fit an existing character into a mold carved out by stereotypical fantasy tropes.

Elronds heritage is an integral part of his story and something he passes on to his children. Him rejecting the privilege that was handed to him, rejecting his birthrights and choosing to build Imladris and becoming a healer, somebody who cares and provides, is a beautiful conclusion to his lineage that in the past has always been defined by pain.

It's not that I hate the show. I've always been hopeful for a good experience despite spending quite a lot of time rolling my eyes. I refuse to give a definite judgement before finishing the first season, it would be unfair to do so. But after watching the first two episodes I can say that I'm sad, disappointed and yes, a bit angry. Because that not what we were promised, thats not what Tolkien wrote. I can understand that many people enjoy the show and I welcome every single new fan with open arms. Sadly the lore changes take away from my enjoyment and the line regarding Elrond is only one example of many. Adaptations unfaithful towards the source material are always a dividing topic in fandoms and I hope that despite the discourse happening we all stay civil and respectful.

[absynthe--minded]

just so everyone is on the same page with what I believe regarding the Kinslaying discourse, since we’re starting this up again

it doesn’t matter to me who had the greater right to the gem, who thought their claim was better or who argued the best in favor of said claim or who was right. I don’t think the damn rock is important enough to sacrifice a kingdom for, and I think the narrative knows this, and that’s part of the point of the story.

the Fëanorians never should have attacked Doriath at all, or Sirion, because people > things. Dior and Elwing, in my opinion, should have given over the jewel even if they had the truly valid claim to it, because people > things. at the end of the day I do not care who deserved the Silmaril. it is not worth that much bloodshed, and no one deserved to die for it.

the Sindarin people, and the refugees from Nargothrond and Gondolin, did not deserve to get slaughtered over a rock, even if they agreed with their monarchs’ decisions to keep that rock. no, they weren’t utterly powerless just because they weren’t all nobles, but they had distinct leaders whose duty it was to shoulder the brunt of the responsibilities of decision-making, and as a result it’s those people who should have been held mainly responsible, regardless of how popular their choices were. the majority of the victims in these slaughters were civilians who had limited say in their rulers’ decisions, and therefore, I hold that even if those decisions were supported by the populace, that populace was deserving of death. if anyone deserved to die - which they didn’t - it was the governing bodies who originally made these calls.

the right thing to do with the Silmaril is “whatever causes the least amount of bloodshed”. if you’re willing to kill for it you don’t deserve it, and if you’re willing to hold it as worth the lives of an entire kingdom, I think personally that you’re pretty dumb. I love the Fëanorians and the Sindar and the Sirion refugees equally in this, it’s not about favoritism. it’s about how murdering people for a fucking rock, even a holy rock with supernatural powers, always makes you the bad guy, no matter what your motivations are.

[squirrelwrangler]

43

Okay, the Secret Files for Wall the Heart. 

You might already know this was a spite-motivated tumblr discourse fic, because there was one or two people on my dash who were disowning Thingol as a terrible king and way worse bigot than the Noldor (ie Fëanorians) because of the line about Thingol disliking Beren’s Northern Sindarin accent because Northern Sindar weren’t trusted, the Fëanorians used that accent, etc… This idea of Thingol as a hermit king who did nothing during the entire Silmarilion, just hid in his Girdled Kingdom and let the Noldor do all the fighting, ungrateful, etc… It pissed me off. Enough to take my headcanon and make a fic, and then for my long airing out of grievances and footnote explanations to be so long as to warrant a second chapter. Which I feel even now is a bit extreme and overboard but I won’t shorten it.

Because Goddammit, Elu Thingol and the Sindar of Doriath DID fight Morgoth. They were fighting a long battle before the Noldor ever showed up, and Thingol would still be fighting orcs when they got close to his border even up to the year before Beren stumbled into the Girdle. It’s like Americans saying they did all the fighting and ignoring the French and British and other allies during WWI (or WWII). The Noldor were coming in just after Thingol suffered heavy losses and his remaining allies are in a long siege.

Also, that the Girdle just went up right before the Noldor arrive. It was a recent thing.

Denethor’s death needs more fandom love and attention. You could just as easily do a quasi-slash angsty fic about Thingol trying to reach Denethor in time and then fruitlessly avenging his death in the vein of those Maedhros and Fingon Nirnaeth and aftermath fanworks.

It wasn’t mentioned in this fic, but one of Denethor’s son who died would have been causally intended to be betrothed to Lúthien. The two families were suggesting the idea, and the two of them were friendly if not in love yet. Thus another layer of tragedy.

SF, especially the military SF and space opera stuff, loves the mind controlled double agent trope. I don’t think Vorkosigan ever used it outright, but it’s one of those tropes that both SF and Fantasy love and therefore I wanted to use. And the Silmarilion version from the quotes might just be that Morgoth was so overwhelming powerful that captured elves gave into despair and decided since Morgoth’s victory was inevitable, to pull a Quisling instead of a more magical mind control with the subject unawares. That seems a little more Tolkien. Either way, I left the situation behind Eredhon’s actions purposefully vague as to leave it up for interpretation, and because the mystery worked better for Thingol and the story.

It was very awkward to write this fic before I had a name for Eredhon or his son.

Ducks are a subtle motif for the original village of Elwë and his people.

Sindarin books would not be bond in the same style as books in Valinor, at least until the Noldor arrived, and would use scrolls. The image of Thingol attacking someone with a scroll as an impromptu weapon is funny.

“Yes, Eöl, you were right,” Thingol says testily.

This ↑ was (intended to be) the funniest line in the fic, because of the implication that this would be the only time ever that Thingol (or anyone) would say that line. I like a softer than canon Eöl, and heavens knows I probably turned off a few readers by inserting him into the story, but I like his purpose in this narrative. And adding to the tragedy that this sense that Elmo and Linkwinen, as his grandparents, are the only two elves that make any effort to understand and interact with him, and without them there and faced with the Girdle forcing him to be hemmed in with thousands of people of mutual dislike and setting off more than one case of agoraphobia and PSTD, he decamps to Nan Elmoth, stews in bitterness and mental issues with no one to curtail him, and in a few hundred years there we go~

Galathil and Celeborn are too young in this fic. *pulls face*

[gaolcrowofmandos]

Eleven Questions

Tagged by @cerulean-shark – thanks so much! <33

I love your questions *resists urge to make a separate post for each one*

1. Who are your favorite members of the House of Finwe, and why?

Gah I love them all, but at present I’ve gotta say Turgon, Curufin, and Celebrimbor. They all have such distinct but fascinating tragedies and a ridiculous amount of pride. Plus geniuses in their respective fields :)

2. Favorite weird bit of Tolkien lore?

I always love the canon story of Azog’s death in LotR Appendix A… The whole decapitation/shoving the money bag in his mouth thing is both weird and hella hardcore.

3. Favorite ship?

Just one??? Guess it’ll have to be Curufin/Finrod.

4. How do you feel about Melian and Thingol?

To avoid the Dazed In The Woods Discourse, I’ll say my piece about Thingol’s death and Melian leaving Doriath defenseless. Ethically, big No. She completely abandons her people and realm, allowing the Second Kinslaying.

Narratively, however, I love it–Melian’s just about one of the toughest characters in the whole Silm–we see next to no objective ‘mistakes’ on her end–but then she just reaches her breaking point after losing Thingol, and knowing it’s imminent she’ll lose Luthien, too.

5. Opinions on Maeglin?

Like his mother, his biggest issue is freedom. He spends his life going from cage to cage, from Nan Elmoth with Eol’s abuse to Gondolin (trapped in the shadow of his parents’ deaths, chained to his love for Idril but unable to act on it) to Angband (where he’s offered the supposed chance at real freedom and takes it), then back to Gondolin, to find he’s still in mental bondage to Morgoth. Damn tragic.

6. Opinions on Manwe?

SO well-intentioned. Like, more well-intentioned than you would believe. However, not the best when it comes to empathy. At least Thorondor makes up for a little of that

7. Least favorite Feanorian?

Least favorite? Hmm. I guess it would have to be (in the twin-lost-at-Losgar version) whichever twin is Umbarto (in your chosen version of that version), just for deficit of characterization to make a call on how much I like him.

8. Crossover you’d like to see?

This is terrible, but like… random classic lit stuff? Like, take the premise of The Brothers Karamazov or The Count of Monte Cristo or The Picture of Dorian Gray and insert Silm characters/plot elements and see what happens.

9. Favorite Ainu?

This is unoriginal, but: Mairon is objectively the best. just sayin’

10. Random headcanon about Feanor, Fingolfin, or Finarfin?

Fingolfin’s challenge to Morgoth isn’t a symbolic or courageous or even tragically desperate act; it’s a 100% break with reality, mentally snapping.

11. Opinions on Celebrimbor?

Two big ones which are more like headcanons:

(1) The Rings were his idea. Yes, Annatar is 100% there to trip him up, corrupt him, and tear him down–and ultimately he takes the bigger role in the Rings project, of course–but the idea reeks too much of Fëanor for it to be all him.

(2) He’s a smart guy. He knew who Annatar was (or at least had a solid guess) pretty early on, but kept his secret because his Daddy/Uncle Issues make him a bit of a sucker for redemption arcs. Annatar’s 'big reveal’ isn’t his identity, but his ill intentions.

My Questions:

1) Favorite Third Age ship?

2) *opens trench coat to reveal bags of crack* Take your pick: Gorlim/Celebrimbor, Manwë/Fëanor, Melkor/Ungoliant

3) What’s the first thing (image, scene, quote, aesthetic, anything) you associate with Maedhros?

4) Do you like the 'Hobbit’ films?

5) Why/why not?

6) Which of the three C’s (Celegorm, Caranthir, Curufin) do you think has the saddest story? (yes, i’m aware they’re all terrible ;P)

7) Was the Prophecy of the North/Doom of the Noldor fair?

8) Name one song that makes you think of The Silmarillion (any character, any scene, whatever :).

9) Favorite Dwarf? (First, Second, or Third Age)

10) To what extent was Túrin responsible for his actions?

11) Most recent Tolkien book read?

I tag: @ten-summoners-fails, @fernstrike, @mythopoeticreality, @feanope , @cycas, @raisingcain-onceagain, @straightouttahimring, @filmamir, @alia-andreth, @prackspoor, and @cataclysmofstars , if y'all would like, plus anyone else who’d like to answer!