#don't get me wrong there are some Targs I love but I don't want them on the throne<3< /div> Explore tagged Tumblr posts

[sky-is-the-limit]

When you wanna talk about GoT/ASOIAF but I'm a Jaime apologist, Braime fanatic, Sansa defender, Cersei enjoyer, Stark must sit on the throne truther and fuck the Targaryens believer

[franzkafkagf]

OK but rhaegar lyanna is truly about being free from what is expected of them adn embracing destiny like in true love I believe? like he was a noble and good person supposedly, children and wife come from duty and he probably loved them truly but could not scape his fate,? I imagine it like Elia as well was willing to go back home and not be prisoner of an unwanted marriage. About the characters ages I really have nothing to say, like I get u and anon, however considering the short lifespans of these people it makes sense to me. We don't like it but it's embedded in our own history.

well i see where you're coming from but rhaegar fully drank the targ supermacy kool-aid thinking he was the one meant to fulfill some ancient prophecy (a prophecy i believe will end up not coming true in the end) and leaving behind his children and his wife to die horrible deaths all in service of him thinking to be some kind of chosen hero.

obviously i can understand wanting to take control of your own destiny, but rhaegar was a grown man & had responsibilities. he had a family to look after. his choices were entirely selfish. i'm sorry but they were. selfish & cruel.

summerhall & this entire tragedy show that the notion of targaryen/valyrian supermacy is an inherently destructive and rotten concept. rhaegar might have believed he was doing the right thing, but he was wrong. in every way. he was wrong for what he did.

i don't really want to get into the ages thing atm, it seems to be normal in westeros to have these kind of age gaps but the power dynamics are very clear.

[esther-dot]

targ stans are a bizarre breed of fans. like i get having problematic faves. majority of us have them.

one would argue loki that tumblr once obsessed over is a problematic fave but targ stans mostly see no wrong in their favorites. from not seeing the characters for what they are (i would enumerate but it's a long list) to just cyber bully real life people who don't like targs in general. it feels cultish.

I’m not involved in the Marvel fandom, so I don’t know how they treat Loki, but when I saw fans saying, not just after GoT 8x05, not just after the finale, but even now, “Dany did nothing wrong” and “I stand with Dany” or in other words, “let the children burn” --it does strike me as, uh, worrisome? And then for those same people to harass, threaten, hack, dox etc other fans...well, yes, it does make them seem extreme!

My impression of the Marvel movies was that they weren’t particularly consistent with their framing of things. Civilians were only dying when buildings collapsed when the writers decided they did, before that, it was largely a consequence-free story for the heroes. That’s something other comic book stories picked up on and ran with, and Marvel started writing differently at some point. GoT, even as it veered away from ASOIAF, still had some morals it loosely operated with, the discussion of civilian casualties and injustice was not simply presented somewhere in the story, but specifically presented as a criticism of Dany by other characters from s1 on which meant we had some in-world red flags and guidelines that the fandom chose to dismiss. And even in the gear up to the finale, we had even more thrown on the table, but they fandom still insisted on ignoring her threats about leveling a city, burning POWs alive, destroying the food that would see people through the winter...So many things in the story that indicated Dany was on the “bad guy” (not charming rogue) end of the spectrum. While fans used every misstep of certain characters to condemn them, they refused to apply the show’s own rules/standards to her.

So, it isn’t that they love Dany while knowing what she was/what she was doing (which was how people I know talked about Loki), but that they, like a cult of personality, changed the rules to be as she dictated, rather than holding her to any standard. It was particularly gruesome because they wanted other characters killed for “justice” (anyone they believed wronged Dany) and truly don’t seem to think any of the civilians in KL deserved the same. It’s a shame that ASOIAF was adapted into a story that brainwashed people into thinking that murdering anyone who didn’t welcome their conqueror was reasonable.🤦🏻‍♀️

The ASOIAF / GoT fandom seem pretty inclined to create and revere BNFs, I’m guessing because of the absence of new canon content? They’re ravenous for new ideas? Which allowed this problem of a thought leader + lemmings, so then you not only have the love for the character, but the development of a “doctrine” and how you are (or are not) permitted to interpret things? I think that feeds into the Dany fandom extremism. When you lose the ability to question your opinion, to change your mind, that’s where the problem is born.

To prevent that kind of weirdness, it’s good to remember that Martin hasn’t written what happens next yet. We know King Bran and R+L=J, we know about Shireen and Hodor’s deaths (kinda), the fandom overall accepts Dany burning KL, but we know precious little else. Much of what we argue over is locked away in Martin’s mind and he has mentioned that what he intended to do is evolving as he writes. Good! That means the characters and story are still alive for him, speaking to him, wonderful! But it means for us as a fandom, we must remain open-minded. Reject the notions that go against everything the man has written (mass murder is ok when Dany does it etc), but stay alive, allow your thoughts to evolve along with the growth of the characters and their story. Consider new ways of interpreting things. I’ve said in the past that the best part of the Jonsa fandom was that as long as there was a general agreement about certain themes and characters, there was a lot of space created for good faith disagreements about interpretations of certain passages / foreshadowing / spec. It makes the fandom fun, it allows new insights, it prevents the weird cult stuff.

All that being said, I have seen clips of Aemond from HOTD, so I understand the appeal of problematic favs. That kid wears evil well. 😂

[navree]

Speaking of targ/dany fans being crazy their currentely harassing a chinese author (xiran jay zhao) who met grrm for committing the heinous crime of loving dany but being anti monarchy??

Oh I have seen that, I love Xiran as an author and when they were still uploading videos on YouTube I always had a blast (I still rewatch the historical ones, it's a great easy access gateway for anyone who wants to start learning about Chinese historical figures, highly recommend). It's especially weird because even beyond the fact that Xiran never said anything particularly outrageous, it's like they said in one of their Tweets about it: they're the one who was talking to GRRM about these characters and their preference for the story, not randos on Twitter. And again: all Xiran said was that they liked Dany but didn't want her on the throne! That's a fair thing to say! I like Dany but I don't necessarily want her on the throne, because I find Robert's Rebellion and the overthrow of the Targaryens entirely just and righteous and would be disappointed if it got overturned. It'd be one thing to say that Xiran's statement was a bit of a copout given that, at least so far, it doesn't look as if GRRM is gearing up towards dismantling monarchy as a whole by the end of the series (to me, I'm not an ASOIAF theorist so maybe I'm just missing stuff), or that maybe Xiran might wanna rethink reading fantasy since it tends to include monarchies a lot (where's that post about fictional monarchies being interesting because of the impact fucked up families have on fictional geopolitics even tho real monarchies are boring and stupid), which would still be kinda dumb and condescending responses, but this is just ridiculous. Anyone's allowed to have any opinion they want about fictional characters and their rights to fictional chairs, it's insane to get pissy that someone doesn't like your fave just because they happen to be your fave.

It's annoying because again, I like Dany, I like a lot of Targs, I'm not joking when I say shit like "i should be allowed to make the conquest show" I say that because I legit really love these characters and wish I were in the position to be able to craft story around them as well given my fascination for the world around them as well as their own dynamics. But the broader Dany/Targaryen fandom is just so fucking ludicrous. Part of it is part of a larger trend I've noted previously in response to some anons, that fandom has really honed in on this idea that it's not enough to just like something, you need to be in the moral right for liking it, and thus people who don't like it need to be in the moral wrong for being opposed to you and the thing you like. It's fandom as morality and ethics that's really corrupted nearly all fandom spaces as a whole, like that criticism you get about how if you like X fictional character than you must also support the bad actions X fictional characters in your real life. And being in the ASOIAF fandom you really see a lot of that, especially with HOTD providing the first new material the fandom has gotten in a long time, and it's turned a lot of y'all into crazy people.

[horizon-verizon]

Can I ask something? Is it wrong for me to like both book and show Helaena? We barely get anything of her in the books. I read one of your post and I didn't know that Helaena is bipolar coded. She seems kinda like me a little closed off, doesn't have many friends.

I don't like the way they made the greens. Otto is same like in the books. Alicent is made to be victim in the show, a woman who doesn't care about her children, this child bride which is not true. She is scheming, intelligent woman who cares about her children and hates Rhaenyra. They water down her character to this fearful girl. I prefer book Alicent due to these facts.

Although Daemon is made to this villain who killed his first wife which never happened,never loved Laena and didn't care about his daughters, I found it very insensitive when the show creaters made Daemon's and Rhaenyra's marriage the next day after Laenas' funeral. Daemon loves his family, he loved Laena, he loved his children, he would never hurt Rhaenyra. When we consider that when Laena was pregnant with a son, Daeman flew to get her the best Maestar he could which just shows how much Daemon loved Laena.

I wish they made Laena and Rhaenyra interact, because, despite the show telling us that Alicent and Rhaenyra love each other, the books show us that actually Rhaenyra and Laena had a loving relationship and that is the reason why Rhaenyra wanted to marry her sons to Laenas' daughters.

Another point I would like to make is that the way they aged up some of the characters in quite silly. It would have been better if they aged the adults by 6 years and Rhaenyra by 4.

I also wish that had gotten more of Harwin and Rhaenyra and were given Corly's relationship with his brother. I don't like the change that Vaemand was made to be his brother and not nephew like in the books. They also did a terrible Jon at making the greens simpathetic. The only innocent greens are Helaena, her Children Maelor, Jahaerys and Jahaera. Also I wish that in the books Alicent had married of Jacaerys and Helaena.

I wish we had gotten more of Harwin x Rhaenyra, Rhaenyra x Laena, Laena x Daemon.

I apologize for my long ask and for the gramatical errors. I hope I'm not annoying.

You're not being annoying and I can read your ask just fine.

Helaena isn't bipolar-coded. People apply autism more than anything else. And which post of Helaena are you referring to?

And no, it's not morally bad to like Helaena of HotD, as in you are not a bad person for liking the HotD Helaena more. It's fine that the reason why a person would like her was that they wrote more for her, full stop, because in a sense it makes sense.

However, the issues with how and what specifically they decided to write for her are what bothers me. They try to make it seem like she's actually moving the plot forward or doing anything other than saying words or that her words at all drive others to actually do things in order for them to have any affect on the plot/events happening, but without her visions, the show and story remain the same.

Her visions rather nudge the fourth wall by inviting the audience to note how she is seeing her entire family's downfall while being largely ignored by said family. She's hugged, ignored, indulged, and viewers feel bad for her, they go "awww" for her, they bemoan how Alicent actually harms her more than takes care of her because Alicent herself cannot understand either of their silent grievances in full.

But do we really know who "Helaena" is, what she thinks about her brothers and sister and parents, and the situation? How she moralize or assess others' actions and her own in relation to them? Aside from being a mom and even that, we only see images of her kids next to her and her asking where they are. And did we ever see her ride Dreamfyre, connect with this dragon, show who she is in relation to her Targ heritage, or even how much she feels connected to that? And does the show provide context for that? How did she transition into becoming an active mother in her kids' lives away from the bugs?

She's basically an "odd" accessory in the story for the writers to communicate an AESTHETIC of prophecy. For me, as I note her characterization thus far, she's not compelling, exciting, inspiring, or at the very least an active participant. And I mean pre-war. This is the time that people should be presented as themselves, not during a high-stress climax!

The show provides very little-to-none of that because the writers/showrunners didn't think these were "that" important, that it's all about the war and Helaena does near-nothing in the canon story anyway...but their job was to present rounder characters, so...

Meanwhile, the war would have had so much more an emotional effect the more human we make its participants and victims! The war did not have to be THE story--it was the result of what happened before and the climax of the Targ succession crisis.

I would assume that they felt that they had to make focus on the war or not make fuller, rounder characters because they read the Dance account in F&B, saw that the maesters, Gyldayn, and everyone who provided reports to be recorded...saw how biased or contradictory or plain unclear and ambiguous some reports were...saw that even questioning them for a minute, and then thought they should just stick to that the maesters/Gyldayn thinks happened while making the greens more sympathetic or cooler just to invite audiences to like them more and feel the two sides are more "even".

Back to Helaena, yes, even without the neurodivergence that HotD made for her character, Helaena seemed to have little to no real companions in the original story:

It's likely that she felt more comfortable alone with her ladies and waiting, and it is also possible that this is untrue because those women/girls would have to be there by Alicent's observation and approval. These ladies also would accompany her with the first purpose of getting in good with the greens on orders from their parents/father. But why not show that?!

The Targs already keep most of their care and focus on family members, like most houses do. And during Viserys' time, there were only a few Targs for Rhaenyra to grow up around and influence her development. However, the person themselves seemed to allow her much more room to be confident in her right to interact with others by not keeping her so under lock and key or Andal-demure. (Viserys, Aemma [an Arryn, but with a Targ mom and married/cousins with a Targ and kept close], even Daemon). Alicent is neither Aemma nor a happier Viserys (Viserys when Aemma was alive). She is an Andal noblewoman devoted to the Faith religion and nonTarg practices and Andal social roles/behaviors, which she likely believed to be just, in themselves, correct and good for her children to grow into to be both "good" and competent enough in the roles she and other nobles expect of their peers/royal superiors. Helaena, therefore, would have a different treatment from Alicent than Rhaenyra from Aemma. Helana doesn't have much of Viserys. Rhaenyra had a fuller Viserys, Daemon, and Aemma for that necessary cultural/philosophical/historical Valyrian/Targ contrast to the Andal/Faith influence and actors. Therefore, Alicent's bid to make Helaena more the Andal sort of woman who more placidly keeps out of politics (the least directly as possible) and more focus on child-rearing or quiet/indoor habits (sewing) inevitably makes Helaena more isolated. This is a story about women, a woman's interests, etc.

Family first. I talked generally, but even more specific to the greens and how they are different/more extreme, Helana would be expected to support Aegon as a wife AND for his claim by being mostly out of the way unless it's to calm him down...and do we even know how often she did that, to repeat myself? Why should she have to? Why can't Aegon learn self-control? Anyway, this means that she's not encouraged to make real friends and have intimacies with them unless directed to, with a specific person(s). At least as I weigh in Alicent's priority to seat Aegon, which existed and had an active plan even before Helaena was ever born, so Helaena would have figured into Alicent/Otto's plans even as a baby, which means she's known nothing really like Rhaenyra's less rigid childhood. The life of a married woman can be lonely even with ladies-in-waiting circumstantially. Why not show that?

As for everything else, yes, I agree for the most part. I wonder, though, what "sympathetic" is supposed to mean for us all sometimes? We mean "deserving of sympathy", yes, and do we mean "deserving of sympathy" = "the most victimized" or "the people doing the least bit of wrongdoing"? Or do we mean "I relate to that specific negative experience"? When and how does it have both of these meanings? Might be nitpicking, but idk.

[dulcewrites]

I love how Targ stans are like Visenya, Alysanne, Rhaenyra, Dany are so great but then they turn around and say Naerys, Rhaella and other Targ queens who weren't dragonriders suck. And I saw a comment on YouTube that it's funny how Targ princesses position lowered (well, it was never very high but after death of dragons it went to basically 0) after death of dragons and they lost significance in eyes of many when they weren't dragonriders. Well it's not hard to understand that those girls are only impressed when Targ princesses threaten to burn everything to assert dominance as if it was a sing of being powerful 😂 and when they lack dragons they are worth less than spitting on the ground even though they had to put up with their toxic and violent brothers-husbands. If to them Targ princesses value depends on whether they have a dragon or not, do we really need to wonder if they are feminist? Because they are clearly not, what's more they think Targ princesses cannot possibly be powerful without giant lizard spitting fire so it just reminds me of words from Tony Stark to Peter Parker If you're nothing without this suit then you shouldn't have it and the same could be applied to all those girlbosess Targ princesses that certain people love and refuse to see they are not perfect. What are all of them without dragons? Okay, Visenya knew how to fight, Alysanne was very intelligent, but Rhaenyra and Dany just spoiled child and arrogant child and they both don't know how game of thrones is played. Just look at basically legendary player, Olenna Tyrell and how many times did she threaten someone directly? Only twice, with High Sparrow and Littlefinger and with High Sparrow it was because he imprisoned Loras and Margaery and Littlefinger because she predicted he would go to Cersei and say she poisoned Joffrey and at the end of conversation it was Littlefinger who needed to rethink his strategy because if he spoke a word about Olenna murdering Joffrey, she would also play at this game and she will say Littlefinger was also involved in this so that's why she said our fates are joined, together we murdered the king, meaning if Littlefinger will expose her and her house, she would do the same to him. But Olenna talk with Tywin, it's so great because 1) Tywin couldn't harm her or her house after they helped Lannisters defeat Stannis 2) they were both head of their houses and there is so much between the lines, so much unspoken things and that's the beauty of game of thrones. It's all about plotting, look at Varys and Littlefinger and then look at Rhaenyra and Dany. Come on, does anyone take this crazy stans seriously? When I was watching how Hightowers interact with others it's all about being subtle, it's getting what they want but not in brutal way like Targs are known for, because it doesn't matter whether you have a dragon or not, but when you are stupid, others will manipulate you and play smart and use you for their own benefit and that's why I don't respect Targs as family because almost all of them act like entitled to everything all the time and their arrogance causes them to be shortsighted and they think just because they wear crown, have dragons that it means they are the most powerful people in the world, but that's wrong, because they are not.

I do think a large appeal of the Targaryens is their dragons which like… fine whatever. Dragons are cool. I think the mythos behind their family is cool. But I think a lot of people maybe project certain ideas of the Targaryens to frankly make them seem more competent or more politically savvy.

Much of the power they wield is in their dragons (for a time) and by telling themselves, and by proxy, others that they should be seen as gods because of said dragons. Once the rider is stripped of that dragon or any some cases does not have one yet, they are isolated or seen as less targaryen. Regardless of how much blood they may have. I think the whole targ family, Jaehaerys with the doctrine in particular, do themselves a disfavor by focusing so much on dragons.

It’s funny you mention this sort of dynamic with the women and their dragons bc Rhaenyra and fmo reader have an interesting (imo) conversation about the privileges and disadvantages of being a dragon rider. How ephemeral power can be when you are a woman in the realm. Rhaenyra was never taught how to access power outside of her name and dragon. A great example would be how weird it was (to me) to have a woman that just ripped a baby out of her hop on a dragon to ~scare~ people. I get it was supposed to be a callback to ep 2 but like ???. It’s just funny bc Rhaenyra doesn’t know how to extend any power bc her father was too incompetent to show her (or even do it himself). In Daemon’s words “dreams didn’t make up kings, dragons did”. Which is just ironic. Rhaenyra and dany, frankly through the men in the lives, really never stood a chance. I think that’s why it is funny when people love these women but can’t even point out the clear system in the Targaryen family that in the end negative affects these women. I personally enjoy book dany, I can’t really speak on her show counterpart much. And I’m still eh about how I feel about both book and show Rhaenyra.

The whole soft power versus hard power, in this context. Because people who use hard power tactics (in this case having literal dragons) would maybe look down on those who use soft power (coercion or economic withdrawal). Fear can only take you so far especially against people who already don’t fuck with you. In general I think there are pros and cons to both ways of political strategy. Certain characters can get away on one versus other based on: gender, resources, race, age, etc

[thecatsaesthetics]

I saw someone on twitter discussing Rhaegar, and other problematic elements of the series, and they basically said GRRM had no idea what trash Rhaegar was in the 90s when he first came up with the character but he probably is now aware of how awful literally everyone (except the targ stans) think Rhaegar is so when/if he ever gets to the part of the series where Martin explains the relationship he will have to do some serious damage control to 'fix' R/L.

They also said, which I fully agree with, that because he's taken 30 years to finish this series, social mores and cultural norms have shifted so much that a lot of plot points and characterizations he was probably planning are now deeply, deeply problematic whereas back in the 90s, the fantasy-reader audience the books were originally marketed towards would not have cared. Like you said, the post-me too era has brought forth a lot more awareness about grooming, age gaps, power imbalances, etc. I definitely think one of the reasons its difficult to finish the series is because GRRM is now aware of certain plot points he has been planning no longer being palatable and knowing he would get crucified for if he went forward with them. Like San/san was definitely something that was meant to be more romantic or sexual but the ages of the characters, lack of five year gap, and knowing people would rage at him if he made San/san canon in anyway means that romantic ship is over imo lol. Sa/ndor's love for Sa/nsa will be a lot more platonic and self-sacrificial going forward as opposed to romantic undertones.

For R/L though, I do wonder if GRRM telling HOTD writers to include the ice and fire prophecy in the show means that he will lean way more heavily into 'Well, ackshually, Rhaegar was saving the world it wasn't about wanting to fuck a teen he became infatuated with. Also, Elia was chill with it because Dornish(tm).' Basically, I can see Martin leaning way more heavily toward Rhaegar doing what he did to save humanity versus him not being able to keep it in his pants. But we'll see if/when the series is ever completed, which is a big if.

Sorry this is so long I'm putting it underneath:

I do agree that Martin came up with this series in the 90s and did not expect it to become such a cultural landmark. I am not sure he agrees Rhaegar is "awful" as Martin has said and done things within his book series that make me believe he does not see much wrong with a 16 year old running off with a 23 year old. I do think he always intended to add the magically bits in the story with Rhaegar and Lyanna but that they were suppose to be look at as the human incarnations of Ice and Fire and Jon being the offspring of that magic.

And even if Martin did realize after much discussion how problematic the Lyanna and Rhaegar situation is I don't think he would change it. The unfortunate truth is they are fundamental to the story. Not in a way where we need to see them, but they are similar to Paris and Helen. Without their actions the story doesn't exist, and without Rhaegar and Lyanna running off the story does not happen. Our world is reset.

And the book has expanded so much, including a list of characters Martin never intended for us to see, that it makes us really resent both Lyanna and Rhaegar as readers. All the while the narrative itself does not seem to be aware of how horrible the actions of them (especially Rhaegar) is. Adding the Aegon storyline in the book and if he doesn't turn out to be a fake and does end up dead and Jon ends up somehow having a "happy" ending it feels super insulting to Elia and the rest of the characters who suffered due to Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions.

The inclusion of the Ice and Fire prophecy in HOTD had nothing to do with Martin and more to do with the HOTD writers wanting to include a reason for why Viserys was choosing Rhaenyra. In the books Viserys is just a shitty king and has no reason at all for not naming Aegon after his birth. In the show it's hinted he believes the Ice and Fire prophecy would only be fulfilled under Rhaenyra's line.

As for what Martin will do with Elia, I really am not sure but he has said he will make it "complicated". I tend to think he wouldn't make Elia "okay" with it but he might have a situation where Elia believes her son is the Prince that was Promised and wants him to have his "Visenya". But I'm not sold on that just because I don't think Rhaegar would use Lyanna to get a Visenya, he would likely assume the child from Lyanna was the Prince that was Promised simply because of the "ice" connection.

But on the topic of why Martin hasn't finished the series. I have several thoughts:

 First, he's written himself into a nightmare. If you read A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons, they are interesting but they expand the plot in a way I've never seen done before. For any type of novel. He has multiple POVs with incredibly complex and interesting storylines, most of which aren't connected to the main plot. I don't know how he's going to handle closing all of those storylines within two books. I love Feast and Dance so much but as a writer I cannot image having to close all of those storylines.

Second, GOT took up so much time. In the first years GOT was airing Martin did a lot of media for the show, cons, and even wrote a whole episode up until season 5. That's a lot of work and it doesn't leave a lot of time to write and complete the story. Also once it became clear Martin wouldn't even complete Winds before the show closed I don't think he had the same motivation to write faster. Why not take his time? Plus D&D had clearly branched out from all the book storylines by season 4.

Third, the reaction to the ending of GOT (which were his intended endings) must have hurt. I cannot image a world where you as the writer of this series see people reacting so poorly to your intended ending (even if D&D butchered it) would not feel at least disappointment. People hated Villain Dany and her death (does matter if I love fallen Dany) and I 100% believe he's going there in the next book. He might be worried or concerned about the reaction. Martin has admitted that seeing fans discuss the series and figuring out things have made him want to change course. And that was back when the series was limited to forum discussions online. He had major news outlets discussing how "awful" Dany's ending was. That likely affected him and his writing.

[daylander1000]

I don’t want to say that I disagree with the last anon (I don’t, i want that fluff too 😭) but I think what’s happening is very much in line with what we’ve seen of their relationship before in your fic. As kids, they kind of always verbally kept each other at arms’ length and even at such young ages (which wow. absolutely wild how the world had hurt them so young that walls started coming up at 8 and 9 years old) It’s understandable that at 16-18 they wouldn’t be the most talkative in that regards. I think Aemond’s POV (which their first meeting mostly was in) shows just how deeply insecure he really is, and how he truly held onto Rhaena as the only thing he could’ve ever really relied on to make him feel okay, while Rhaena, while I won’t say she’s completely moved on or anything, has understood and accepted change. To me, they seem like that whole “If I loved you less, i might be able to talk about it more.” or saving all the reverent stares and lovesick smiles for when the other looks away IDK sorry for rambling i just have so many thots

Lolol, no need to apologize. We all want the fluff. Sometimes I'm sitting writing and reminding myself "Hey, come on, keep this fun."

For me, it's not that she's moved on from their friendship but she's moved on from the idea of looking to Aemond (and his mum) to "rescue" her because she's at a point where she fully appreciates the danger and risk of being on the wrong side of her father.

While Aemond was studying the sword, she was getting a 7(?)-year post grad certificate in Daemyra Behavioral Psychology. She's seen firsthand how her mother, Harwin and Laenor's entire lives are disregarded and she doesn't want to be added to the jetsam/flotsam.

Aemond's still someone with a mother, a Criston, a grandfather, a granny dragon, older siblings in line to be the next king and queen... He was hurt and he's aware that he's on the expendable end of the Targ spectrum, but he's still protected in an enmeshed, 'circle the wagons' sort of way.

Rhaena's living the opposite of that enmeshed family dynamic. Estranged sister, dead mother, father was bad to begin with, worse now that he has his dream family, her grandfather is a Luke Stan, so she's in "Sinnerman, where you gonna run to?" mode.

Running to Aemond's wagon circle isn't a great idea cause that's not safe at all. Asking him to leave his wagon circle to ride out for her is 1,000% riskier. Hell, she's not even sure how circling the wagons are supposed to work because she's never had it done for her. She's seeing them do it around Luke tho, positioning hers and Baela's wagons to take the hits, so she's kind of like "fuck wagons in general. I'm going independent."

But of course to Aemond, that's like "Did she just totally reject the safest, most well organized wagon circle in all of Westeros? Is it because of that one single time I weak-linked it? Wtf do I do with this second wagon with your name on it? Sell it, like some kind of wagon-salesman to a pilgrim doing last minute wagon shopping???"

(he's left it a little late in the war game to start making allies and planning a power marriage with another family)

I mean, in the past and at this point, it's more of a proposal for her safety rather than a sign of any undying love, lol. And she's saying, "I'd rather take my chances with a non-prince who doesn't have a dragon who I've never even met before than you" so there's no way not to take that personally when he's out there training with Criston to work past his disability and make something of himself every way he knows how. That's worse than "I don't want to marry you." That's "you're incompetent/you're gonna get me killed/I don't trust you with my life or anything at all."

I actually had a happy reunion chapter written and drafted on AO3 just ready to be published. Real Swan Princess like, but I rewrote the entire thing to add some friction because they were hardly on the same page as children so it made sense for the gap to widen a bit.

Wasted time, but yeah.

I felt this version was a touch on the cruel side but I truly didn't mean it to be. Just wanted to emphasize that she's lost some of that easy friendliness and ability to communicate with people properly after getting out of her Shawshank sentence.

[bl00dlight]

I know you've done one Aemond x sis. But I feel like it's a super underrated tag, I also know ur into more canon probable shit. So how about an Aemond x sis. Maybe an older sister?

So far on requests we got lactation kink and older sis targcest. Okay diva's okay freaks let's goooo.

But ya no I agree that aemond x sis is really underrated and honestly, some of the best fics I've read have been of that particular genre. So much juicy character reltionships to sink ur teeth into and its always like lowkey feels like it could be canon. SOME of them. Also... I'm bored of same old same old tyrellbaratheonmaidhightowerblahblah same same x self insert hair colour fics. Like no one actually cares about the TYRELL or BARATHEON LORE come AWNNN NOW. Boring as fuck. Though book Maris Baratheon is an icon. Let's see some GRRM style insanity. Yall literally get this one free pass EVER to write incest which is like not fucking gross and objectively wrong and nasty and fucked up and the incestees in question are dragonriding silver haired MAGIC SUPERMODELS WHO ARE LOWKEY MAGICAL? AND YALL WANNA WRITE ABOUT.... a.... tyrell? Like love the tyrells. Marge is def a diva and her grandma too. But...a wifu tyrell? In canon about batshit loco TARGARYENS? About AEMOND? the most batshit of them all? At least write about a Lannister or something. Give me some kind of crazy to work with. I don't wanna read a tradwife fantasy. I wanna read abt insane bitches. Come on use your imaginations LETS GOOOOOOO. So tired of self insert boring bitch wife fics, they are so fucking boring. I want to IMMERSED. So yes love a good targcest fic. They really do outshine most of the other fics purely because the Targs are undoubtedly the MOST entertaining and insane characters to fuck around with and they are so fucked up that you can literally write OG characters who are completely fucking compelling and feel just as canon as GRRMs. And that's what I want to see from fics personally. Not that you asked. But love u thank u for the request.

[rosewaffles]

THIS. THIS. THIS. THIS. i would've loved seeing conversations between them?? like it would've fleshed out their relationship even more instead of us viewers having to fill in the blanks......

but on the other hand, maybe the lack of interaction between these two characters could serve to highlight the inherent tragedy of the dance of the dragons - a family torn apart by their greed for power, by the cruel world they live in. rhaenyra and aegon ii are siblings in name only, but they're practically strangers to each other in their own home, they don't talk, and what love they could have had for each other is twisted and destroyed beyond repair by the fucked up targaryen incest (the targs fascinate me so much in how they cannibalize themselves to maintain their hold on power) and the medieval hell that is westeros. it makes me so sad thinking about them because they're so doomed from the start. there is no happy ending here. rhaenyra somehow choosing to love her siblings would mean her fully forgiving alicent for betraying her and marrying her father, and for attempting to replace her mother in her eyes, but she can't. from rhaenyra's perspective, aegon ii and all his siblings are the scar that alicent left behind. this scar, this love that she once had with alicent cannot heal, it will only fester and rot, and spread to her other siblings. aegon ii was supposed to be alicent and otto's perfect heir, their golden dragon, but he becomes so bitter and angry and cruel, and in the end rhaenyra becomes no better either. it's all about that intergenerational trauma, that wizened tree that sickens with age and gives them rotten fruit to feed their children because this poison is all they have ever known, all they have ever been allowed to want.

HOWEVER. the decreased episode count kinda worries me because what will happen to the other character relationships?? i fear that we'll get essentially dot-points of their character dynamics when we could be digging deeper into the brains. these characters have me in a chokehold, i want to study their brains like a bug. hopefully we do get to see more of their relationships develop, but i feel like at some point there should be some form of rhaenyra and aegon ii interacting?? like at least one?? i haven't read fire and blood so please correct me if i'm wrong (since i just skimmed the asoiaf wiki), but isn't the last and only interaction in the future between aegon ii and rhaenyra is when rhaenyra meets her death by sunfyre's flames by aegon ii's orders? if that is the case then rhaenyra growing up in the red keep with aegon ii would have been prime time for developing their relationship - even if it was just her attempting to straight up avoid him when he's a toddler and he just wants to play with his big sister and is too young to understand why she takes every opportunity to avoid him? ahh the more i write on this post the more sad i feel that they never got to experience a normal sibling relationship.

I’m sure what I’m about to say has been reiterated many times before, but the fact that there is not one interaction between Rhaenyra (Heir to the Iron Throne, the Kings firstborn, and head of Team Black) and Aegon (the Kings firstborn son, the other legitimate claimant to the throne, and the head of Team Green) is genuinely INSANE to me, and from a writing and narrative perspective…just plain BAFFLING.

Like, what do you MEAN that the two main figures of the ENTIRE Dance (Aegon being the literal reason there’s an inter-house war in the first place) don’t even interact BEFORE it begins?

What do you MEAN they’ve been in close proximity for YEARS and somehow not a SINGLE conversation has occurred for the viewer to listen too and say to themselves:

“oh so those two characters are going to be the MAIN figureheads for the fast approaching civil war that tears apart the realm and begins the demise of an entire house. gotcha.”

But what is worse is that there are literal episodes, literal SCENES, where this could have be done easily and without seeming like an afterthought or a weird insertion.

In episode 6, both teams are in the Red Keep the entire time, and yet, Rhaenyra and Aegon do not meet even once; Rhaenyra could have encountered him as she was making her way to Laenor, for example.

In episode 7, literally the entire family is at Laena’s funeral, Rhaenyra and Aegon could’ve, at any point, crossed paths. She could’ve said something about him being “in his cups” and he could say something about “needing a few more to get through this utterly depressing funeral” or something.

(+ bonus points if Rhaenyra gets upset because that’s her friend who just died “you drunk imbecile”).

In episode 8, the crème de la crème of episodes concerning crazy Targ+Hightower relations, how EASY would it be for hungover Aegon to say something petty and/or derogatory to Rhaenyra just before both families entered the throne room:

“Sister, what a surprise to see you here!”

“It shouldn’t be a surprise as it is a matter concerning my son inheritance-”

“I did not think you concerned yourself with any matters at all, but I’m glad you’ve returned, court has been lacking without its ‘delight’ to brighten up these gloomy halls.“

AND THE DINNER?! DONT GET ME STARTED ON THE LACK OF INTERACTION, THEY WERE ON OPPOSITE SIDES OF THE TABLE AND NOT EVEN A SINGLE WORD WAS EXCHANGED?!

LIKE WHY!

[gotgifsandmusings]

Hi, been a fan since season 5 but was MIA during season 8 because life. I was wondering what you thought of Dany's descent as Queen of the Ashes? Do you think some of your earlier points i.e Hizdahr zo Sansa work in D&D's benefit unironically now (even though they have lost all credibility as writers)? Ignoring how it was butchered, of course.

Congratulations, you asked the very question that broke Julia and my collective brain and is the reason we never finished our S8 retrospectives, lol.

Because like...yes. This show had basically done a horrible job of distinguishing "good" vs. "bad" guys on the show in all ways other than marketing. It was just accepted that Cersei was the "most vile woman in Westeros," when we see the "heroes" do similarly awful things (e.g. Arya murdering the entire Frey male line, baking them into pies, and feeding them to Walder).

So enter Season 7/8 where it's I guess setting up Dany's descent (while also being an earnest love story for some reason), and we get this weird case of "it's only evil/questionable when Dany does war things." Tyrion can burn Stannis's fleet with wildfire, but Dany can't burn her enemies' soldiers with Drogon because...Tyrion is on a hill looking sad? Jon can execute a literal traumatized child who tried to kill him, but Dany can't execute the Tarlys who wouldn't have taken the black anyway?

It just becomes this crap pile of misogynistic implications, where it seems like our reasons we're supposed to be skeptical of Dany are because she does things unilaterally, and when women do that on the show it's bad. When men do it on the show, it's leadership. Then of course, her strafing to burn as many innocents in King's Landing was just comically stupid. We've SEEN Dany in power already...we saw her grapple with not being beloved by everyone in Meereen. We know what motivates her, and it's just not fitting that she'd suddenly want to kill all the innocents. Or that bells make her take things personally.

Really, what's sort of funny about this show is that we could have had a heel-turn for Sansa to be Queen of the Ashes, or for Jaime to be King of the Ashes, and because this show is so obsessed with everyone being motivated by revenge and having cool badass moments, there'd be equal seeding for any of these characters burning down King's Landing.

But no, the issue was Dany's..."liberation theology" (these guys are so, so stupid).

So like...yes? It does help retroactively sorta? But also no, it doesn't, because they don't get to have it both ways and argue her 'targ madness coin' just happened to land in S8, especially when Dany is arguably the character we've seen in a position of power the most, and understanding how she wields it.

This is getting rambly, so let me leave you with a snippet from one of our many failed attempts to write this retrospective (note it's a very rough draft):

"...After rewatching Season 8, the true point of Varys turning sides was hearing that Jon had a better claim to the throne. The Tarly executions in Season 7 kicked off his skepticism about Dany’s leadership qualities. However, in between those two events, the only beat we could point to was Dany being grumpy at a party. She did try to fire Tyrion a few times and Varys is a Carol Award-winning Tyrion-stan, but we never saw his reaction to that specifically. It had been Jorah that pleaded for Tyrion remaining her Hand this year. All we saw was Varys side-eyeing her sitting back in a chair at a party. 

We couldn't even adequately tie Dany’s actions to similar actions on the parts of Tyrion and Jon and make a solid sexism case, because it just became this horrible circular discussion of which actions counted vs. not. The fact is, Varys was in Dany’s camp until he wasn’t. He had concerns, sure, but the turning point was a grumpy party! Maybe her UberEats delivered the wrong latte and she’s lactose intolerant!

Taking this to the macro level, we simply never saw Dany develop into a villain. The narrative decided she was a villain in Episode 4 of the final season, and then chided and insulted us for ever thinking she wasn’t. We could spend a separate 6,000 words arguing whether or not her actions of previous seasons could have been framed as villainous (remember how Kylie kept saying how Cersei and Dany were kind of the same in their actions?), but it’s not productive. The writers were in Dany’s camp until they weren’t.

[first she came for the slavers]

Ignoring the just horrific implications of how they evoked Niemöller here, this Tyrion quote is just baldly ridiculous. You (dear writers) cheered for her when she burned the Dothraki, and we know because of the framing and the music and the things characters said about her afterwards. Also, you wrote an entire plotline about how nailing the slavers to the crosses had unintended consequences that she had to reconcile with, and it was part of her development as a leader. But then you decided learning was wrong, or opening the fighting pits was wrong, or Tyrion had to convince the red priests to worship her to re-engage commerce? Or something??

It’s almost like there was no coherent planning and Dany didn’t have a series arc at all! She was the cool, badass Khaleesi lady, until she wasn’t. She was the person in charge of Meereen until Tyrion came. She was the revolutionary who loved the smallfolk and wanted to reduce suffering until she was the paranoid narcissist who didn’t get enough praise. She was a feminist icon until she was a cautionary tale about ambitious women. She was a Marxist reformer that wanted to break the wheel which had harmed so many until she was Horde Prime who sought people’s liberation through their deaths."

[esther-dot]

So re Jon's legitimacy v. bastardy conversation. FWIW, when the annulment/marriage plot point was revealed in season 7, Linda of Elio and Linda fame, had a twitter conversation with another user and Linda basically implied she was skeptical of the annulment because it wouldn't fit in-universe rules and a poly-marriage would have made more sense as there is "precedent" for that (because ya know targs are going to targ). Linda and Elio are essentially GRRM's canon fact checkers so I found that interesting. Also, in one of Jaime's flashbacks I think, this was after the rebellion popped off and R decided to show his face in KL I suppose (so I'm assuming after any alleged marriage took place/after L got knocked up), he told Jaime something to the effect that he was putting "my wife and children" in your hands/care (which lmao). So he did still refer to E as his wife which I know, I know the bar is in hell. Don't get me wrong, R is POS but I do think in his warped mind he did care for E, didn't think he humiliated beyond comprehension (yet again, lmao), and loved his children. Also, wasn't he obsessed with the "dragon having three heads" so I don't think in his mind he intended to throw away E and their children (I'm not saying I agree with that sentiment myself) but in terms of GRRM's authorial intent I think this is where he was getting at.

(in reference to this convo)

Oh, thank you for that info, anon! I’ve never followed those people closely but I’ve certainly heard them mentioned a lot, and know Martin considers them kinda experts on his world. (How weird is it to think about reminding the author of what he has written!) I’ve been struck by some of Martin’s comments to fans about them thinking about a certain thing more than he has or his recent comment about how he’s making things up as he goes along and felt that as fans, we look at things on a very strict/nailed down kinda way, whereas for him, the endpoint for our mains are fixed, but he’s exploring his world and developing it as he goes. Something I find so interesting is that he’s chosen to write about the past and the future, unfolding things as we read that change what we know, that mean what we know isn't.

With the entire fandom agreeing about R+L=J, it's easy to forget that technically, it's still a mystery being spun-out. To me, it is so omnipresent, it requires plot significance ie I feel that Jon will need to be trueborn and deal with the consequences of having a claim, but Martin has such a unique twist on things, it's hard to know which way that goes. He could take it mostly negative, the purpose be to derail Jon's life-- a subversion of how the hidden prince trope usually plays out-- and it be the means to dethrone him, not give him a happy ending. As in, say Jon is accepted as a legitimized Stark, becomes KitN, and then suddenly, this revelation. Usually unexpected parentage reveals result in a crown, Martin could decided to use it to take one away. After all, Robb wrote that will thinking Jon was his father’s son, and it seems to me that as understandable as his choice was in the moment (fears about the Lannisters getting Winterfell), I have to think Martin won’t “reward” it in the narrative by having it play out nice and neat. That solution seems destined to create chaos when we think of the R/L bombshell.

This:

Don't get me wrong, R is POS but I do think in his warped mind he did care for E

is something I've wondered about. Here is the line that I think you’re remembering:

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."                 

"I never thought he'd hurt them." Jaime's sword was burning less brightly now. "I was with the king . . ." (ASOS, Jaime VI)

which I think speaks more to Jaime’s feelings of failure/guilt than to Rhaegar’s perception of Elia since elsewhere there’s a mention of it being Aerys who wanted Jaime in KL. And yet, the way Martin writes about Rhaegar in different POVs and some of his comments made me think he feels very differently than I do about the character. The way Elia and Rhaenys' deaths are placed primarily on Tywin and The Mountain's heads which is true, except, none of that would have happened if Rhaegar hadn't set the whole catastrophe into motion with the Lyanna mess means I find the guy an absolute loser. I just can’t get past poor little Rhaenys hiding under his bed, thinking her father might save her when her father had run off with another woman in pursuit of an additional child. I suppose, the story is showing the dangers of being guided by prophecy and creating our own destruction, but in the words on the page, I don’t see the contempt that I feel for Rhaegar. 

So yeah, I have my feelings and I try to differentiate between them and what Martin intended the takeaway to be.

[aerltarg]

1, 3, 7, 14, 19 + asoiaf 👀 (go off queen 🔥)

1. What OTPs in your fandom do you just not get?

oh boi where to begin 😭

ok i really don't understand what's up w shipping your absolute fave w someone you don't like or straight up hate. bonus points if canonically these characters are not just indifferent to each other but hate the type like the other / is very dismissive towards the other. so you can't even get the love/hate spice from there lmfao, it's literally so bland and sad 😭 also the amount of twisting both characters need to endure to make this at least seem to work out!! what's the point even if in the end of such “ship” you get basically ocs w the names of canon characters?

and what's the point in such “shipping” if you only use the other one (literally the half of said pairing) to prop up your fave? does it really bring ppl joy to turn the whole fucking well-written character into someone else's accessory? relationship goals?? especially in cases when you just know they just have an agenda and want to hide another case of mischaracterizing of certain character.

literally who these ppl are lying to 😭 the funniest shit is that i can get the aggressive hetero shippers more than the ones who hide behind their faux activism shield. the first ones are at least not as hypocritical lmao

there also are some personal pet peeves of mine like smth from the kind of torturer x victim. tho funnily enough enjoyers of such problematic stuff more oft than not are actually very aware of this and are very chill. so while i don't ship this myself i am very cool w their shippers and don't feel any need to wage a holy war on them or smth lol. the same can't be said abt the certain crackshippers who feel the need to drag through dirt any possible “rival” to their *cough*very crack and very straight*cough* otp to “prove” the ~canonicity~ of the said ship. so in the end of the day i think the attitude of real ppl towards other real ppl matter more. i might not ship many things in this fandom and not get maybe as many but i am honestly so okay w them until they are self-aware and stay in their lane.

3. Have you ever unfollowed someone over a fandom opinion?

in the fandom like this one? jfc of course 😭💀 it was mostly in the beginning though, now i know better and just don't hit follow button until i'm really, like 100% sure it's worth it lol. this fandom is the best in giving the trust issues i'm afraid

7. Is there anything you used to like but can't stand now?

i used to be a total stark stan and then a martell stan lmao 💀 yes, i confess my sins. back in these dark days when i was young and delusional i enjoyed stark/martell supremacy iirc. what i think of this now? embarrassing 😭 i mean i still have enough warm feelings for canon starks and martells, i've just become extremely allergic to the ~northern independence~ and ~revenge power fantasies~ and all this stuff. bless their unhinged fanbases for scaring me off so fast w their anti dany sentiments (whom i've always dearly loved) and f&b for turning me into complete targ stan lol

14. Unpopular opinion about your fandom?

the distinction between two sides is truly hilarious. there are many different subfandoms ofc but generally it boils down to having certain opinions abt certain characters, the main ones and the ones fandom made more relevant than they canonically are. and these opinions are really so, SO opposite that's it's just killing me 😭 how can two ppl look at the same page and see two completely opposite things? when one person is like 97% right and the other is SO TOTALLY WRONG ZERO READING COMPREHENSION DETECTED LMFAO

imho, meta culture has done unrepairable damage there. you realize this when you see some random ppl using quotes from mf fanfiction as canon proof in a discussion abt canon having NO IDEA it's literally non-existent in the books. yeah, bc they had read somewhere on quora or reddit or tumblr some “analysis” and never once fact checked. you also realize this when you see some total, like absolutely ridiculous crack posted as serious (or in some really lost causes “almost canon”) “theory” and taken as such by other ppl simply bc it looked like a serious essay. ppl buy into this confident tone and quotes in between (but still don't check these quotes even if they don't remember them in canon since they're so blissfully naive abt the certain parts of the fandom that absolutely and shamelessly can change canon quotes just to spread their agenda lol), ppl see bnfs blogs getting asks abt even tiniest details and these bnfs answering oh so confident as if they were grrm himself abt smth that can't even be taken as analysis simply bc of the lack of canon material on the issue. they step on the territory of pure fanon and headcanons but never change the tone and some ppl take this bullshit for granted without blinking.

so yeah my unpopular opinion. for such serious, interesting and complex book series, asoiaf fandom is fucking dumb and deranged and, unfortunately, many really smart ppl have left leaving us w this lot that refuses to use their own brains and that prefers to read some biased “metas” online than actual books and the hypocrites who boost their egos in this dead fandom, freaking out every time anyone tries to challenge them.

special cry out for those who still make this fandom bearable aka content creators whose gifs, edits, arts, metas (i mean real honest metas, not whatever bullshit clown colleges are eager to reblog lmao). despite being paid dust from local pretentious bitches, who forget who is the real customer there all the time, you are still w us and thank you so much for keeping this fandom alive!!! once you leave we will have only satansas' hallucinations posed as smth canon related and unfunny lame jokes 😭

19. What is the one thing you hate most about your fandom?

hypocrisy and double standards. they're literally everywhere lmfao, can't even count. also some really weird shit like harassing real life pocs over headcanons abt fanon pocs lolol, but that's a whole another conversation lmao. but most of all i hate the lack of basic human decency. some ppl there can doxx, gaslight, lie, go running like cockroaches caught in 4k doing this all but never once apologize to the ppl they harassed and lied abt and still be cool for some fandom places while others will be automatically cancelled for shipping the wrong ship or stanning the wrong character. bc apparently for asoiaf fandom opinions on fiction matter more than the treatment of very fucking real human beings 🤡 how glad am i for seeing which ppl have their priorities straight istg

play with me in the salty ask game!

[dulcewrites]

oh my god fmo!aemond would be the type of person to have a madonna whore complex wouldn't he 😭 now im even more excited for the next part and to find out if the way in which he considered alys had changed (before daemyra entered the picture) when he fell in love with her or when she became pregnant. like i think he would still see reader and alys being stationed on two different levels except they Would have something in common now.... alys' side of things is sooo interesting to think about too (especially since we haven't officially met her yet and if it really turns out she had been planted by daemyra). unlike reader, she's allowed to cross that line of using her charms to get what she wants in a more direct way and probably does find some pleasure in it (or rather has come to) but surely not without it causing her some serious damage due to being a bastard servant and it maybe being her only her means to survive in the world. also it adds another layer to what you've said before about both her and reader fixating on each other and craving what the other has and all of it has me wanting to Scream because theyre all so fucked up and i love themmmm. PLEASE don't stop sharing fmo web weavings/meta posts, they absolutely bright up my day💌

It definitely would have been interesting to see if he changed with her apparently being pregnant. Would it have been “easier” because alys would not be around the reader is. Or bc he thinks the child was made out of love. Would his brain get fucked up again bc alys is now a mother, and he can’t wrap his head around a mother engaging in things they do. Like you said, would they be on the same level now as caregivers of his children… fulfilling a duty now.

I think it’s why hearing that news literally sends reader into labor. If she isn’t making her husband happy, if he isn’t having sex with her… and now he is having children with other women. In her mind, she’s thinking what even is my purpose here.

The differences similarities between reader and alys live rent free in my head too. I kind of see them as Alicent and Rhaenyra in the sense that it is possible for them to be victims and perpetrators in a patriarchal society… bc most women (myself included) are both at times.

Alys clearly is a victim in how she’s been treated as a bastard and then of course a woman. Sort of similar to Rhaenyra, I see her maybe making not great decisions as a mean to survival. It is not her (or Rhaenyra’s) job to uplift other women (though ryra obviously has more power to do that) especially when she is just trying to survive…. but in they also may feel the need to step on some toes to achieve semblances of power/freedom. She thinks of reader and sees someone who has live a very privileged life, especially compared to her, and she’s not wrong. But with that privilege comes a certain level of rigidness that alys probably wouldn’t like.

Just like reader can be a victim in her marriage, and basically being degraded by her mother growing up. Told that her wants and needs are secondary. She ~knows~ her role and place. But she can be a perpetrator with internalizing that and project that onto other women. She probably thought some very… not nice things when she found out the woman Aemond cheating with was an older bastard woman. Fmo is a story about cheating, and the targs being messy. But also reader reevaluating ideas of patriarchy (even if she doesn’t have that word in her head as a medieval woman).

Alys and reader are sort of everything each other want to be but also nothing they want to be… it’s interesting and fucked up

[janiedean]

have you had a bad experience with s*nsa/j*nsa fans? it seems that the entire got/asoiaf fandom has problems with them (dany stans, arya stans, targ stans, jon stans, jaime stans, brienne stans, braime shippers) i don't want to generalize but they seem to be a very unfriendly, hypocritical and "holier than thou" bunch. they don't care for any female character who isn't sansa while screaming "misogyny" when someone dares to criticise their fave. they also bitch about jonerys despite shipping jonsa (i couldn't care less for either ship but wtf?) they gush about how flawed and complex sansa is but act like she did nothing wrong and get angry whenever someone criticises her. they act like arya throwing food at her clothes is horrible disgusting irredeemable behaviour, but say "siblings being siblings" when sansa literally tells her that she should marry hodor because she's ugly like him. The double standards ugh. as a brienne lover, i personally hate the way they only see brienne as a bodyguard to sansa and don't seem to care about her character. what about you? I really love (BOOK) Sansa but her fans' attitude makes me lose interest in her character which hurts me. It's gotten to the point that im wary of anyone who has a Sansa icon :(

I mean my worst experience with... anyone in that camp wasn’t even for fandom stuff but it was someone who shipped it/was a s/nsa stan being pro-trump under a springsteen post I made and that was... let’s just say extremely unpleasant and then there was the anti-sansan twitter crowd which was also extremely unpleasant and that one person who hated joncon and was a jon/sa stan/dany anti who couldn’t handle being told to not tag joncon hate who also was a trip though I’ve had friends who had way worse run-ins, that is if we don’t count my by now legendary beef with THAT one s/nsa-j/nsa stan who hated robb stark but I mean... half of her own fandom hated her so X°D 

that said: I personally detest show-sansa from s5 onwards and I loathe how part of her fandom has decided to make the entire show/series about her and how they discard arya and brienne to give s/nsa parts of their storylines/their love interests/making both of them basically the glorified bodyguards (which was also why I loathed a brienne in sansa’s qg ending and I’m way happier with the one we got if I had to choose one evil) and I detest how they turned her into cersei lite and everyone hauled that frankly shit ooc ending she got as FEMINISM just bc she became qitn when it’s against everything in the original text, not even going into the mess that was S5 which is better not touched and I honestly can’t with the part of fandom who has decided that the entire series revolves around s/ansa while at the same time denying all over the place her actual book traits and the fact that both people who are her only realistic viable canon interests aren’t standard hot. I do love book s/nsa a lot and I’m trying to detach the show version from the book as much as I can and if I write fic I’m sticking with the book characterization because I don’t want the show mess near me at any time, but tldr: idc for any section of this fandom who discusses s/ansa which isn’t either san/san or sansa/tyrion shippers too at this point because everyone else at this point is going to be a minefield and I’m tired of the continuous denial that s/ansa’s stark love interests are those two guys but nah let’s give her all the hot guys as if it’s not like... against the text, I’m tired of people denying book canon and I don’t want to see the show version anymore. I have nothing against like... liking showsansa or shipping j/nsa (even if idc for it same as idc for jon/erys) or shipping her with anyone and I don’t judge anyone’s shipping preferences but I’d just like some intellectual honesty when it comes to discussing the actual text and admitting that showsansa is basically cersei lite and nothing like her book self, and that’s not something that happens outside those two corners now so *shrug* and I’m not even touching the BRIENNE AS THE BODYGUARD concept as last time I tried to discuss it on twitter without bringing shipping into it I got accused of hating f/f ships and honestly I’m too old and tired for this discourse except to say that making brienne or arya s/ansa’s bodyguards only is rude af, shows zero understanding of the text and I really don’t want anything to do with it. :/

[bensolodefensesquad]

I don't understand why Jonsas think Sansa and Daenerys will hate each other. I understand why Sansa would hate Dany she's a threat to her but what reason would Dany have to hate Sansa? Sansa isn't a queen, she doesn't have an army, and even IF Sansa did have feelings for Jon (she doesn't), Dany would believe them to be siblings, so why would she view her as a romantic rival? Doesn't make sense. I think Sansa will betray Jon because of Dany, but Dany will be nothing but kind and polite to Sansa

Hooooo boy, there’s a lot to unpack here.

First off, I want to say that…  I’m probably not the best person to ask on these matters because I am a show-only fan. I’m currently trying to make my way through the books, but because I suffer from aphantasia, books with too much description become tedious for me because it’s pointless. I have the same problem with Tolkien, as much as I want to read them. As a filmmaker and scriptwriter, visual mediums are simply more interesting and easier for me.

That being said, let’s try to get through this. This is likely going to be more barebones than not because I don’t feel as qualified to talk about this as others who are far more in depth with things like this, but fellow Jonsas, feel free to add your own insights.

Let’s talk a little bit about the threat that Dany poses to Sansa.

Sansa’s arc for seasons has been about getting back to Winterfell/Taking back Winterfell. She is constantly dreaming about going home. She fought desperately to take back Winterfell and she took care of the people there while Jon was gone. It is her home, and she loves the people there, and feels safe there. Where Dany shows up, she is expected to give up her ancestral home to the woman whose father killed her grandfather and uncle. After she’d fought so hard to win it back from a completely different madman.

Even as Jon is King in the North, Winterfell belongs to Sansa. She is the Lady of Winterfell. That is why she was willing to give it up to Bran because it is technically his, by birthright, but he refuses, so it is hers! She is the one who is being asked to give it up. She is the one who has to give it up.

Not only that, if Jon had legitimately bent the knee, then the North would no longer be independent. Sansa’s brother died fighting for Northern independence. Dany’s appearance in Winterfell is asking her to willing accept that the people who died for the North died for nothing.

And finally, because I do believe that Sansa has some complicated feelings for Jon, his showing up with another woman could make things confusing for her.

Aaand let’s talk about the threat that Sansa poses to Dany.

Sansa isn’t a Queen Lady of Winterfell

No, Sansa isn’t royalty yet, but the Northern Lords wanted to name her Queen in the North when they were losing faith in Jon. She refused but it shows that they’re more than willing to rally behind her which means she’s easily a threat on the royal front. She can easily be a Queen. The War of the Five Kings can become the War of the Three Queens in a heartbeat.

Sansa has no armies

As mentioned the Northern lords support the Stark name and Sansa. She has people to fight for her. And that’s not even mentioning to Knights of the Vale. No, the army isn’t as large as the unsullied and the dothraki but Sansa could pose a threat if she wanted to, especially with Dany in her home, on her turf.

Dany wouldn’t view Sansa as a romantic rival

I think that a lot of j0nerys stans tend to forget that even though they, the stans, might not view Sansa as a romantic rival for Dany, Dany ABSOLUTELY would. Dany grew up believing that she would be married to Viserys when she was older. Her family tree is full of interwoven twigs, not branches. There is very little reason to believe that when Dany meets Sansa, and sees the emotional and physical closeness plus the trust and affection between Jon and Sansa, that she would just just write off their relationship as close siblings because to Dany there is little to no division between a close sibling relationship and romantic relationship.

It is absurd to write off Sansa as a rival in Dany’s mind just because she is Jon’s sister. It’s honestly such a misstep that I see in a lot of s8 theorizing. You know who the Targs are. You know what they stand for. Don’t play dumb just because you don’t want to admit that Dany could legitimately be jealous of Sansa.

Beyond that… I could be totally wrong on this so please correct me if I am… but we haven’t seen Daenerys with a romantic rival. Her love interests/marriages/etc have always been her as the singular woman. All these men just constantly fall at her feet and tell her how beautiful and wonderful she is and she’s never really had to contend with a “younger and beautiful queen” as a threat to the affection that she wants.

In conclusion

If the TRUE conflict was with the white walkers or with Cersei, why wouldn’t the promo tease that conflict instead? If the true conflict isn’t Dany v. Starks, then showing us Jon and Sansa first, and then adding Dany to their meeting in the second promo is akin to hyping the first season of Game of Thrones by showing us Hodor picking flowers. Utterly pointless to the plot, devoid of any conflict.

Long story short… there’s quite a bit that could be major sources of contention between the both of them and the short promo clip we got of Sansa and Dany screams conflict. Sansa is in full “courtesy is a lady’s armor” mode, and Dany has that smug smile. They have JUST met and there’s tension. It’s not going to get better.

As for your prediction as to how s8 will go, you haven’t been paying attention to anyone’s arcs, and I can’t help you.