#do passing trans men have male privilege or do they still experience sex-based oppression? answer quickly

[watermelinoe]

essentially what's frustrating abt being a bi woman on here is that if you bring up the fact that our statistics reflect the markers of being an oppressed class, despite a large percentage of us being partnered with the other sex, it's treated as if you're arguing that heterophobia exists

[velvetvexations]

i looked up tirf and some your answers popped up and i wanted to give my perspective. honestly sometimes i feel isolated because of how “unique” my perspective on these issues is. most of the times i’m treated like a woman and experience misogyny, is because i look like one. therefore i don’t understand why or how i would justify saying that no trans woman experience misogyny. most if not all of the ones that are out do. and definitely all of them who pass. trans men? first of all, it’s stupid to make a blanket statement because a lot of them are closeted, and some of them will be all of their lives (though i’d like for them not to be). sure, they can experience male privilege if they pass, but in a hostage situation kind of way, and only when people don’t know they’re trans. they’re still oppressed based on sex because of misogynistic views of it. to me trans inclusive radical feminism means all trans people? and every feminist or trans activist who refuses to see the nuance of the trans experience or, in the case of radfems, its reason for existence (yes, gender is made up. yes, we still participate in it every day. it’s like capitalism to me. I want it gone but I gotta live. I’m sure it’s the same for trans people). I agree that sometimes the trans movement (including cis allies) can portray a reductive view of gender (like those me when i’m masc me when i’m fem vids where they change attitude? like?), but it doesn’t mean lived experiences don’t matter? or that trans people don’t have a history? or that they’re not just trying to survive in this world, modt of them with a hard to deal with medical condition? it’s so easy to spot the complexities but nobody does. lmao.

I assume you meant "I don't understand how or why I would justify saying that no trans men experience misogyny".

Radical feminism is bad regardless of who it includes so try to keep that in mind too, anon.

[uncloseted]

lately i've been VERY confused about gender and sexuality (not mine, just in general, although more on that later). so i always called myself a lesbian because it made sense, im a girl i like girls. about 2 years ago i had a lot of internalized homophobia and i tried to be as feminine as i could so people would think i was straight. and i remember one time i thought "what if i'm a trans man and i'm doing this because i feel like i have something to prove". +

but then i thought "nah, i can't be a man (or non binary) i like girly things too much". but that's awful too. ellen always wears suits and has short hair and she's still a woman. jeffree star likes girly things and he's a man. but now i don't even know what IS a girl/woman. i mean i didn't choose to be a woman and i never had a chance to be anything else. but i don't think i ever wanted to be. even if i identified as "agender" and i still looked and acted the way i do know, society would still

be seeing and oppressing me as a woman, so at least to me, personally, it feels useless. but also, a lot of nb people (most of them are afab) identify as lesbians. it's very confusing. i never had any kind of dysphoria although i felt uncomfortable with my body, periods, and sex but i always thought it was because of shyness, anxiety, internalized homophobia, insecurities and beauty standards. and i have a friend who's studying psychology in university and she told me dysphoria does not exist

trans girls. i think it depends on, like, how "far" they are in their transition?. i think i could be attracted, physically and emotionally but i couldn't have sex with someone with a penis. and i know even the most trans-positive people will tell you that it's ok to have a genital preference and not want to date trans people. but it still makes me feel horrible because it's like i'm seeing nb people as "more woman" than trans women. but also in all honesty it's very hard to "tell" cis people

from nb people. if you showed me a picture of jeffree star and jonathan van ness (or elena and syd from one day at a time, or amandla stenberg and king princess, or sam smith and harry styles) and asked me which one is nb, i wouldn't know. i would probably say jeffree. so i agree that monosexual (straight/gay) people will inevitably be attracted to nbs because nb is a spectrum, and also some people (I think all of us, in some way? maybe it's a controversial opinion) are gender non-conforming but

but don't identify as nb. does that mean we should change the definitions of gay/lesbian, since any gender could have any type of body and look as feminine and/or masculine as they want? do sam smith, jvn, vander von odd/sasha velour/gigi goode (all genderfluid drag artists) have male privilege despite not being men?. should we change the words feminism, sexism, misogyny, male privilege, etc for something more accurate?. honeslty i think a lot of this confusion is actually intrusive thoughts

and me just being an overthinker in general but it's been causing me so much distress that now every pronoun feels wrong and i can't even masturbate. please forgive the rambling, the buts, the incoherence and the ignorance. thanks in advance. oh and please tell me if this comes through in pieces and i will send them again

So there’s a ton to unpack here, but for the record, I’ve had this exact train of thought, too.

I want to preface my answer by saying that I’m not a gender scholar and I haven’t read nearly as many academic works as I’d like to on this subject, so this is coming very much from my personal opinions and less from an evidence-based/academic place. I also want to say that if pressed, I would describe myself as a pansexual gender anarchist (as in, attracted to people for who they are instead of their parts and I think we should get rid of the concept of gender entirely), but I think that sounds a bit wanky, especially since it has almost zero bearing on my everyday life. So I think the concept of sexuality and gender is maybe different to me than it is to other people, and my perspective on this topic might be unusual in that sense.  If anyone reading this thinks what I’m saying is bullshit or problematic, please join in the conversation! I would love to hear what you have to say.

For me, the more I think about gender and sexuality, the more i don’t really “get” either concept. Gender has begun to feel (to me) like one of those Buzzfeed quizzes where you answer a bunch of questions and they’re like, “you’re rocky road ice cream” and you’re like, “I have no idea what that implies except for it’s the collection of traits I chose from the options above”.  

What I mean by that is that gender is a social construct. No traits are inherently masculine or feminine- things that are considered masculine in one culture can be feminine in another and vice versa. 

Especially now, when we’re really moving towards disentangling gender from our world, I wonder what’s left to take the place of those items to define what gender is.  Gender used to be like “feminine is cleaning, nurturing, creating (or Barbie dolls, dresses, and makeup), and masculine is destruction, being powerful, and being ambitious (or football, beer, and video games)”, but clearly that’s not what it means anymore. Ellen’s suits are feminine suits by virtue of the fact that she IDs as female, even though suits used to be considered a male thing.  Jeffree Star’s makeup looks are male makeup looks by virtue of the fact that he IDs as male, even though makeup used to be considered a female thing.  I’ve heard some people say that there are as many genders as there are people in the world. At that point I think we’re just using the word “gender” as a synonym for “personality”, which is fine, but I think we need to be clear about our definitions and what these words now mean and imply about a person.

Going along that train of thought, if gendered words don’t really mean anything anymore, I don’t see the point as identifying as a particular gender, at last not in the abstract.  In practice, our world still sees gender and cares about it, and other people’s interpretation of our gender has very real consequences.  As you say, even if you identified as agender, society would treat you as a woman because you present in a way society considers to be “traditionally feminine”, and as a result, you would be oppressed in the same way women are.  This is why I said that my position on gender impacts my life zero percent.  I can identify as a gender anarchist all I want, but at the end of the day I still get passed up for opportunities because the way I present is read as female.  Likewise, nonbinary people who were assigned male at birth do have a degree of male privilege (or at least, can access male privilege), depending on how well they “pass” as a man.  Sam Smith likely still experiences some male privilege, because they look (most of the time) like what society might consider traditionally male.  Someone like JVN probably passes less frequently, due to his long hair and frequent wearing of what we might think of as traditionally female clothing (skirts and dresses and high heels).  However, the flip side of that is both Sam Smith and JVN risk being even more marginalized than female identifying, female presenting people when they do dress in a gender non-conforming way, because nonbinary identities are less understood and less accepted than female identities are. 

So now that we’ve considered what gender means in relation to society, maybe let’s consider it in relation to our bodies and sexuality.  This is a bit of a minefield so I’m going to try to tread carefully, but again, feel free to call me out if I say something problematic... 

I don’t think being uncomfortable with your body, especially feminine features of your body that are widely looked down upon (for example, periods) or sexualized (physical features like boobs, butts, hips) necessarily makes a person trans or nonbinary.  As you say, those feelings can be a result of shyness, anxiety, internalized homophobia, insecurities, beauty standards, and dozens of other things.  However, it is something many trans or nonbinary individuals experience.  So the question then becomes, where are those feelings of discomfort coming from?  Are they internal to you (as in, your body physically feels like there’s something wrong/those features shouldn’t be there) or external (you feel shame for having those features because of the society you grew up in)?  It can be really hard to detangle internal influences from external ones, given that people who are assigned female at birth learn to hate our femininity and female bodies from a very young age.

I would say that if those feelings are internal to you, then that’s what referred to as gender dysphoria.  Gender dysphoria is a real, ICD and DSM diagnosable condition, and there’s some evidence to suggest that there’s a neurobiological basis for it.  My (very controversial) hypothesis is that gender dysphoria is like other body integrity identity disorders, where there’s a mismatch between the brain’s map of the body and what the physical body actually looks like.  I want to make it clear here that I don’t think being trans is a disorder.  I don’t think it’s bad or that all people who are trans have a body integrity disorder.  I don’t think you need to physically transition to be trans, or that we should pathologize gender/gender expression, or that gender is a binary (hopefully that last one is obvious).  I just think if society has less stringent gender divisions and a less binary understanding of gender, fewer people would physically transition, but some people would still experience a mismatch between their idea of how their body’s sexual characteristics should look and how they physically are.

So then, what does that mean for our terminology?  I think in the context of a world where the meaning of gender is changing, gay and lesbian just refer to genitals (people with penises attracted to people with penises and people with vaginas attracted to people with vaginas, respectively).  Or perhaps we need to separate it out further- maybe you can be romantically and physically attracted to female and male presenting people, but sexually attracted to only vaginas.  Maybe that would fill the gap between being interested in a person romantically and being interested in having sex with their genitals, where you’re attracted to someone without yet knowing what’s in their pants?  In general, though, I think labels should exist to be useful.  I don’t know how useful it is to have a term for “I'm attracted to you, given that you have the genitals I’m sexually attracted to.”

I think under that framework of centering labels like gay and lesbian on genitals, a lot more people are pansexual than would identify that way if you took a poll right now.  In general, I think a lot of people never recognize that they’re pansexual because they aren’t in contact with nonbinary or trans people that they’re attracted to frequently enough to know they don’t actually care about genital preferences.

When talking about other labels like feminism (the advocacy for AFAB and female-identifying/presenting rights), sexism (prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, generally towards female identifying/presenting people. but also towards gender nonconforming people), misogyny (dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against AFAB and female identifying/presenting people), male privilege (the system of advantages or rights that are available to men and male identifying/presenting people solely on the basis of their sex/gender presentation), etc., I think those terms refer to the societal construct of sex/gender that is still prevalent in our culture.  We perhaps need to start using other words to describe discrimination against nonbinary people, but I think the existing terms continue to serve a purpose and it’s not time to retire them just yet.

I don’t know if any of this is at all helpful or if I’m expressing my thoughts clearly.  Maybe it will just add more confusion to your existing thought process, but I hope it helps to minimize your distress at least a little bit.  Ultimately, all of this is kind of made up, so don’t beat yourself up too much while trying to unravel all these different threads. People spend full academic careers and sometimes their entire lives trying to figure out what they believe on these issues.  It’s okay to not have it all worked out or to not be sure in your ideas.  Even for me, this is just where my thinking is right now.  Maybe in the future it will change with new information I learn or as my feelings towards myself change.  Try to let yourself think of this as a journey instead of something you have to already have figured out.

[transgenderteensurvivalguide]

(1) Hi, I’m not asking this question to offend anyone, this is a genuine question I have. If I offend anyone for being insensitive I am very sorry. So I've been thinking a lot of the differences between transracial vs. transgender and the more research and opinions I find on it the more I get confused. The main argument against being transracial is that a transracial person hasn't gotten the full experience of the specific gender they are identifying due to them living as birth gender. continued

(2) Like Rachel Dolezal being told she is not allowed to identify as black because she hasn’t gotten the true experience of being a black woman in America due to her living the her life as a white woman. However, can’t the same thing be said, for example, a MTF transgender person? It is undeniable that there is a specific woman experience. And for people (especially who realize they are trans late) live their lives passing as a man and don’t get this experience. (continued)(3) Being a woman is being catcalled, is being objectified, and is being paid less than their male counterparts. A MTF trans person doesn’t experience those for most of their life until they begin to live their lives true to their real selves. Why does this ‘experience’ argument work to discount transracial but doesn’t discount transgender? Again I’m very sorry for this question, I will admit myself it is very ignorant. But I just really want an answer to this and I hope I can get that.Harper says:Hi there, I’m going to assume you are asking this in good faith but to be quite honest the phrasing of some of your questions seriously makes me doubt that. Before I start, I want to clarify as Kii does in this ask that transracial is a term that actually describes someone who has been adopted by someone to a family of a different race, rather than the racist stuff Dolezal is doing.First off I’m going to address some assumptions about being a woman that you make in your question: “there is a specific woman experience” and that that experience “is being catcalled, is being objectified, and is being paid less than their male counterparts.” It’s curious to me that you claim there is an “undeniable… specific woman experience” and then only cite moments that we can see other people who are not women experience. For example, homophobic catcalling, i.e. verbal sexual harassment can and does happen to effeminate gay men on the streets; black men are a site of sexual objectification in much of media, consider pornography for example; gay men, men of colour are also paid less than their male counterparts and have been for some time historically. If you base your understanding of what makes a woman entirely on something like misogyny, you have to be open to the fact that other oppressive forces will coalesce in the same way to recreate similar experiences in similar liberation groups. You should also acknowledge that gendered discrimination doesn’t operate on a basis purely targeting women. I think you should broaden your understanding on how such forces work. I recommend reading Julia Serano’s Whipping Girl:

While often different in practice, cissexism, transphobia, and homophobia are all rooted in oppositional sexism, which is the belief that female and male are rigid, mutually exclusive categories, each possessing a unique and non overlapping set of attributes, aptitudes, abilities, and desires. Oppositional sexists attempt to punish or dismiss those of us who fall outside of gender or sexual norms because our existence threatens the idea that women and men are “opposite” sexes. This explains why bisexuals, lesbians, gays, transsexuals, and other transgender people — who may experience their genders and sexualities in very different ways — are so often confused or lumped into the same category (i.e., queer) by society at large. Our natural inclinations to be attracted to the same sex, to identify as the other sex, and/or to express ourselves in ways typically associated with the other sex blur the boundaries required to maintain the male-centered gender hierarchy that exists in our culture today.In addition to the rigid, mutually exclusive gender categories established by oppositional sexism, the other requirement for maintaining a male-centered gender hierarchy is to enforce traditional sexism — the belief that maleness and masculinity are superior to femaleness and femininity. Traditional and oppositional sexism work hand in hand to ensure that those who are masculine have power over those who are feminine, and that only those born male will be seen as authentically masculine. For the purposes of this manifesto, the word misogyny will be used to describe this tendency to dismiss and deride femaleness and femininity.

I’d also like to turn your attention to Jacob Hale’s essay Are Lesbians Women? in which he lays out a list of factors of what makes a woman. He does so in such a way where each individual item on the list is not necessary nor sufficient in order to be a woman. For example, although he lists ‘presence of breasts’ as one such condition that is often correlated with being a woman, there are plenty of women without breasts in the world: trans women without breasts, cis women who have had double mastectomies, and so on. Hale also notes that his list is not entirely exhaustive: there’s always the possibility that this list will be added to in future. I’d highly recommend you look at it if you’re after your “undeniable” “woman’s experience”.Next I’m going to look at your claim that “an MTF trans person doesn’t experience those for most of their life.” This entirely constructs a similar narrative for trans women and entirely disregards the possibility that such a person was raised by understanding and supportive parents from a young age and grew up as a girl from an early age. Whatever your argument about ‘transracial’, it’s clear that you already have a reductive understanding of womanhood and a transgender experience. Such forces and experiences that play into gender interact in ways far more complex than what you’ve detailed above. I also want to point out here that you’ve failed to describe how the arguments above apply to trans men: that is to say a trans man who transitions in his late twenties in the western world will probably experience all of what you label as the “woman experience”, and yet they are men. The argument you present is typical of the considerations ‘transracial’ arguments operate with. They are often circulated by people with a vested transmisogynistic interest as a “gotcha!” designed to portray trans women as either dangerous or ridiculous. As a result they are designed to eliminate any shred of transgender voices. What is implicit in the argument you’ve laid out is that 1. trans women aren’t women and 2. trans men are. The argument fails completely to consider how a trans person articulates their own understandings which often run contrary to the line of argument. I urge you to consider how this argument is made and what purposes it serves. Is it an honest exploration of the workings of gender and race or is there a bias or a motive driving the ‘logic’ of the argument.On to the ‘transracial’ aspect of your argument. I hope so far I have managed to draw your attention to the implicit biases given in the argument, as well as the levels of complexities you have yet to acknowledge. Much of the same can be said about how you present race in the argument.First of all, I’d like to draw your attention that considerations of being perceived as a different race is a reality faced by many white-passing people of colour and many mixed-race people who live through this daily. It is a consideration that has been often articulated and is still often articulated. If the argument was an earnest exploration of the shifting and transitory nature of the perception of people of colour in a racist society, would it not rather look at this aspect? If the argument was an honest exploration of the similarities and differences a construction of both racialised and gendered experiences, would it not center trans women of colour’s voices as they are best situated at this intersection of race and gender to experience this? Is it not suspicious that such an argument doesn’t do this? In fact, go read Franchesca Ramsey’s article on this for a black trans woman talking about it, and Riley’s arcticle, a black non-binary person who highlights:

Rachel Dolezal flat out lied about her life and her experiences, and not to protect herself, but to protect the benefits she received and the space she acquired through those lies. She lied to protect her privilege, a trait of white people and all privileged groups. Her life could have been the same had she merely remained the white woman she was. White people already devour space in Black communities as a bonus of their whiteness, but she chose to take her farce further, becoming a “Black” woman who happened to be indistinguishable from the party in power.There is no benefit to being transgender, and there is no harm, but there is every benefit and harm to a white person picking a less privileged race to join because white features are privileged in every race and identification has no effect on that.

(my emphasis added.)In addition to the points raised by Riley and Ramsey, I’d point out that the move to make a blind comparison between race and gender on the basis of “they are both experienced by people” or “they are both social constructs” “so why can’t x” is just so materially and historically off. There is no consideration in your given argument over the differences between race and gender. There is no consideration that racism was founded by a white ruling colonial class to dominate a colonised and enslaved population. Such a population had within it differently gendered and transgendered people. There is no consideration that this domination was a product of hundreds of years of a capitalism that needed a large white working class to carry out a sustained colonial project: a colonial project that is still in action across the world today. There is no consideration of the formation of gender and the nuclear family as a product of the division of labour enforced by capitalism and the ruling classes on the working classes.In effect, gender and race are two different things. They of course intersect, but the ways in which they operate are distinct and different. Reducing both down to a level that strips them of their actual effects and lived realities in order to further either a justification for a racist white woman exploiting black people or to further a ridicule and strawmanning of the transgender community is a shameful act of bigotry posing under a guise of logic and inquiry.

Check out our /tagged/transracial for more commentary.