#dgm234

[iafernands]

I need to know what happened in chapter 234 of dgrayman. why are you all talking about time travel ??Please,someone help me

[akiraravenswood]

The feeling when you realize....that D Gray Man Chapter 234 is to release in October .

[icharchivist]

honestly considering how much of dgm's story generally has grief as a theme, i find it fitting that the latest chapter's reveal was hinting at the Noah -or at least Road- grieving for that past world. Neatly tying back to some of the major thematic of the story.

That makes the Noah using akuma, who are made thanks to grief, even more painful to picture though, when you think about it....

[190thnight]

anyone wanna explain to me what just happened

[icharchivist]

*Shake you hysterically while screaming* HAVE YOU FINISHED READING DGM 234 ? HAVE YOU ?!! I thought with the previous chapters slow pace nothing interesting would happen aside from a continuation of Red/Allen's flashbacks which we know from DGM Reverse but I was surprised by this instead

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

YES I DID I READ IT IM AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

and same i thought we’ll stay on the same thing, on Allen’s memories, i REALLY didn’t expect to have tHIS AS A CHAPTER LIKE WHAT A LORE BOMB?????

And like WOW talk about a lore bomb, it addresses directly an old theory that we’ve been kinda alluding to for years but had very few materials to address and now it’s HERE and it’s BACK and I’m just??? WOW????? 

Like man i was getting so used to the current pace of the manga that I’ve never expected any theories the fandom discussed to be addressed anytime soon in canon and now it’s just… *screams into the void*

SO THAT CHAPTER WAS HELLA COOL HUH.

[icharchivist]

Thanks a bunch too! ^_^ Road has always been one of my most favorite dgm characters. Before I just really liked her as a villian. But these past few arcs have really given her a lot of depth and dynamic action. She's really grown into one of the more interesting characters to ponder about. I'm always really reevaluating my theories about her and Neah. Before I thought she had a close bond w/Mana and that made her one of the Noahs less predujice when dealing w/Nea. But nope. She apparently -

2 hated Mana or at least wasn't against using and lying to him. That alone opens up a bunch more possibilities on Road and Nea's past. Nea being so connected to Mana would give Road no reason to personally care about him. She can also hide her true body elsewhere (like she did on the Ark). It's possible Nea didn't kill Road because he flat out couldn't. Road and Nea also haven't seen each other yet. It not be because of any sentiment on both parts. It could be Road despises Nea so much his-

3 very presence could trigger her like it does Joyd's memory in Tykki (except maybe worse). Nea is technically a even greater source of trauma and hatred for Road now. The real Mana at least doesn't want to be the Earl or the Pillar. Nea does (even if only to save Mana) and butchered everyone Road was close to. Leaving her to suffer forever alone (until Wisely showed up anyway). With all this info it's hard for me to imagine Road having any positive feelings for Nea. She obviously disagrees -

4 w/his objective despite having some kind of agreement with Cross herself (who is 99% devoted to Nea's side). It is possible she was convinced by Cross Nea will offer everyone the best solution. But I still think her and Wisely have a different mission in mind. Wisely after all hates Nea (which again makes me wonder if this sentiment is shared by Road since the 2 are working together secretly for something). Honestly that mission might be Allen or at least capable of including him. Both -

5 of them want Allen safe from Nea. Road does things to keep Allen grounded to his identity and resisting Nea's control. Wisely wants Allen cut off from Innocence and on their side. Despite seeing Nea as a threat he openly likes Allen. Shoot Road has more reason to feel negative toward Nea since he's essentially killing her Allen. I would not be surprised of Road got ptsd triggers after hearing about Nea devouring Allen's existence since it would once again remind her how Nea killed those she-

6 (whoops sorry I had to go. And... O kind of forgot where I last left off x_x. I roll with and reply later what I forgot). Basically Road has and is losing a lot to Nea. Even if he's trying to save Mana (who she now possibly seems to care about) she's going to lose Allen to him. More then that he's probably running contrary to her goals. Not calling Road and Wisely secret heroes. Allen alone is most likely going to be the one who figures out how to stop this war of reckless hate. But I'm just-

7 both her and Nea seem to have a far more complicated history now that it's revealed she did not care for Mana (something I imagine Be a saw very clearly). I also imagine she did not care for Nea too much because of the nature of his existence (honestly this explains so much why all Noah hated Nea). Both Nea and Road have plans to stop things. Both I bet are bad neas in some way. But maybe Road is willing to give Allen's way a chance now that she cares more in general for her own people.

ohh yeah i can imagine what you mean! 

Road is honestly such a fantastic character, it’s just that before last chapter it was so hard to figure out her motivations. It was always clearly not fully with the Noah even if she’s all “family is the most important”, and her care for Allen truly became genuine.

I think she didn’t hate Mana though, probably the second option you said, she wasn’t against lying to him. there was a Plan, a Script to Follow, and Mana was part of it.

I think it’s possible that Road may have ressented the previous Earl for leaving them and spliting and perhaps she projected on Mana and Nea but in the end i think she probably didn’t see them as heir own person because she had known what the “full earl” was supposed to be. 

I could see her being caucious about that.

As for Nea it’s very hard to say how she would have felt for him before the massacre but the massacre sure made her at least ressent him and i think she hates him for it...

but then there’s how she cries remembering Nea’s last words to Mana, with that smile on that face - and i think that even if it hurts she could see the love of the two brothers and was touched by it. She can hate what Nea did to her family while still at least not hating this part of him if that makes sense?

I think Road’s survival is completely due to her Dream form though, i think Nea wouldn’t have hesitated to kill her when he went on rampage. Imo i think everything Nea did was for Mana. And if Mana was to be sacrified (regardless of Road’s feelings about it), Nea could have wanted to “become the Earl” instead of him in order to save his brother from being a sacrifice. But for that it means people must have forgotten they chose Mana as their Earl. So killing all the Nea would do a “soft reset” of the Noah memories and Nea could pretend to be the Earl and save Mana from it. I think that could have been Nea’s initial plan and thus Road’s survival had no place in it.

Joyd seems to be the one with the clearest feelings against Nea considering the smile that pops up when Nea brings up the face looking like his - Joyd must be playing something on the long run but it is at least pettiness against Nea at the minimum.

But Wisely and Road are hard to get through. For Wisely i don’t know how much he’s actually wanting Allen to join them - right now he’s stuck in the Noah family, unlike Road who can pretend to be somewhere else. So he gotta follow the Earl’s order in some shape or another, not really show a will of his own. If any will there was, it was that he didn’t want to hang around Sheryl’s looking through the Bookmen’s head so perhaps he stayed out to keep an eye on Tyki considering Joyd is the most awakened Noah aside from Road and Wisely at this point.

But as of now i do think that both Road and Wisely dont’ want Nea back. Whenever it is to protect the Earl or because they grew to love Allen or both. 

And I agree with the rest, I think currently Road has all the reasons to hate Nea and now there is perhaps another path they can try out to protect her family. 

since Road loves her family and wants to protect them, while we know they are set up to be sacrified in some way, Road could be willing to take a road that would protect her family while still carrying on what plans they had to start with.

And i think Allen offers this opportunity in some way.

So i could definitl see that and that’s fascinating! i’m so glad of her development so far i’m just... so curious about it all ahhh

[icharchivist]

So the Pillar which theories assumed was the innocence was instead Mana. So was Mana the heart all along ? (which would fit with Apocryphos telling Allen the heart/the heart's accomodator was worried about him), or is the Pillar something that happen when the Heart do something/enter in contact with the Earl against the Earl's will ? (just like Apocryphos trying to forcefully fuse with Allen) (and would explain why the Noah loathe Innocence that badly).

[SPOILERS FOR CHAPTER 234 AHEAD]

Huuum i’m being confused now ahah i think the chapter says that Mana is meant to become the Pillar, not that he was right?

I think it ties more back to the fact the Noah (and the Earl probably more than the others) are described as Sacrificial Lambs, so it would be expected from Mana, as such, to sacrifice himself once facing the Pillar. 

And i think, most likely, from the two options you’re proposing, that it’s actually the later: that it would be what happens once the showdown between the Heart and the Earl actually happens. And I agree it would totally explain the Noah’s hatred for the innocence if the innocence really destroyed everything they loved, especially while using one of their own.

If Mana is meant to become the Pillar, it would mean, imo, that the Noah are trying to use the same technique that innocence used to destroy the Earth 7000 years ago but turn it around to the innocence itself. Which requires sacrifice. thus the motif of the Sacrificial lambs that we know the Noah refered themselves as.

Honestly i think it’s mostly following the actual Noah’s books from the Bible more closely than not in a way? 

The flood was a punishment from God after all, according to it. Specifically there was mention of humanity becoming rotten, and some of the angels/fallen angels had mated with some humans, resulting to some Nephilim sort abominations and such. 

The Flood was supposed to clean it all and according to the book, God just allowed Noah and his family to survive by making him create an ark and save what a pair of what animals God wanted to preserve from this big cleaning.The tale ends with God lamenting what he had done because it was too much, and promising he won’t do it again, and entrusting Noah with the Humanity’s descendants.

I think the take this chapter is telling us is that the Pillar was what provoked the flood, the original destruction, and from Road’s reaction, it would imply that Noah wasn’t actually prepared for it, wasn’t warned by “God” or anything (if it was wanted by “God” all along in this version), it just happened and only the Noah are here to remember.

The fact the destroyed civilization is modern though just emphasis that the world had been “resetted” in between those times. And that likely, it had happened multiple times. Like… We used to call this theory the timeloop theory for that - that each war between Earl and Innocence just resets the world again. 

I personally was always in the idea that Allen could see this memory because he was having Innocence stabbing his Noah’s memories. I know a lot of people think it may be because Allen is part of the old civilization, and i can see the idea, but to me it was always because of the “memory of the innocence” and “the memory of the noah” colliding and therefore manifesting this memory.

If the Pillar is the result of the Earl and the innocence merging, it would explain why once Allen’s Nea’s Noah memory* was stabbed, ie merged, with his parasyte innocence, that a sort of similar, little scale merging happened for this memory to reform. Specifically because we need to remember Nea has the Earl’s memory too in his Noah memory - Mana isn’t the only one with an Earl memory in him. If theories about CC being closer to the Heart/the Heart, the colliding would pretty much just recreate a “Small Scale Pillar” allowing Allen to see One Of The Times The Pillar Happened.

(*EDIT: i meant rather essense bc of how the Noah rejected him for not having a memory but point still stand that Nea is part of the Earl so this colliding would still affect it- further explaination on what i mean here)

So I think, personally, that it’s your second option: that the Pillar happened 7000 years ago from merging the Noah Memory with Innocence- it would explain Allen’s dream and now the mention that Mana was meant to become the Pillar, and the idea of the Noah seeing themselves as Sacrifical Lambs.

That does still raise question about what the hell the Noah are doing right now with the Akuma, since they also mentioned there was a secret purpose to the Akuma, and a secret behind their evolutions, but we know that it destroys humans and all and that they have no problems destroying the akuma- i keep wondering if they’re trying to preserve a part of humanity in the ark but then the way they treat the akuma doesn’t allign with that…. So i am seriously puzzled.

As for the Noah trying to destroy the Earth, by revenge against the Pillar, of “why was this civilization allowed to live but not ours” perhaps? lol perhaps Akuma are closer to Nephilim than not (say if “angels” were the black matter)… perhaps the Noah are Nephilims…. and it’s trying to bring back what the flood tried to destroy.

And then there’s the innocence motive, what sort of things is motivating it?

And if it’s a question of merging, can the Noah turn it around and use the power even by Merging?

Else, I think the Pillar is made of innocence, if only bc the Noah reacts strongly against it, and it would fit the story that it has to be God’s intervention, which in DGM is mostly the Innocence, esp in opposition to the Noah. 

That it would be that the previous time there was a war between the two, the Innocence won, and destroyed the Earth. But the Noah remembers. 

But yeah the “Mana was meant to become the Pillar” implies a merging to me - and i really don’t think Mana was the pillar himself thousands years ago - if only because “Mana” didn’t even exist before the Earl splited and that the Previous Earl is…. a complete mystery, but definitly a different person than Mana and Nea. The fact Road and Cross are specifically talking about Mana while isolating the Earl into being something else, means that Mana cannot be responsible for anything 7000years ago. Else they should have said “the Earl will become the pillar /again/” - they shouldn’t have singled out Mana from the Earl to mention his relationship to the Pillar.

I don’t know if i make sense, the chapter is still very new and very raw so i’m still trying to process it and click together other pieces i’ve been thinking about, and already i can tell i’m horribly biased because of previous thoughts i have/had about the Timeloop theory - and i cannot help to see the new information in that framing.

So that’s the conclusions i’’m driving now, 3 hours after reading the new chapter ahah but i really don’t know…..

[icharchivist]

Alright it's confirmed Cross knows this stuff. It's obvious Bookman does too. What I want to know is what Lavi knows. I remember several canon hints that seem to heavily imply a lot of reactions. I'm going to assume Lavi already knows about the Noah origin and the Pillar stuff. But he doesn't know anything about what Cross or Road are planning and he knows less about the 14th then the fans do. And he doesn't know the Earl's identity or connection to the Pillar. I feel like this could be a essay.

yeah Cross we’re sure now, Bookman most likely know even a bit too (he WAS around the Noah when the Noah had whatever their plan was with the Earl back then).

But as for Lavi... He knows a few things about the Noah, he seems toknow what danger Cross could encounter, there was the Knowing Look with Bookman when they realize Cross is alive... He knows a few things.

But i think Bookman probably kept a few secrets from him to avoid him becoming like his previous apprentice. But what secrets?

I feel like perhaps Lavi knows about the Factual things around the Pillar but not details on say how it happened? I also don’t know how much he knows about their origins considering most of his reactions in the Ark’s arc but who the fuck knows anymore.

But I do agree i think he perhaps have a very vague idea for Cross from Bookman, but he has no idea for Road (considering their fateful meeting).

And with the previous apprentice getting lost to the 14th and his own reactions to the 14th reveals i think he didn’t know much about all of this - i could see Bookman trying to shield him from it. Also with how much Allen had mentioned Mana I think if he knew about it, Lavi would have connected dots by now. 

The connection to the Pillar... that’s the huge mystery there. Bc Lavi could know a few things but not all.

GAHHH THIS IS AGONIZING I DONT KNOW...... I feel like Lavi misses most of the pieces just like we do but he must know more than any of us do still.... IT depends how much Bookman entrusted him with those information.

SO. DEPENDS. and i’m completely lost i don’t know how to connect the dots anymore.........

God i want answers so bad now DLKJFDKLF

[icharchivist]

(I think,you explained your thoughts well) I can't believe it just hit me that the Pillar looks like a giant sword. I'm probably super late on this. It makes sense since the Pillar, like sword, came to cut down life and is seen as a fearsome weapon. Also it makes me wonder something. What if CC is part of the last Pillar. It might be why the Pillar showed up in Allen's dream and talked to him or why when CC cut Tykki it awoke Joyd's memory instead and caused him to go on a rampage. For some -

2 reason it’s intensely attached to Allen and wants to keep him alive. Even save him from Neah by allowing Apocryphos to merge w/him and not letting him fall. Come to think of it. Allen attacking Mana w/CC is what awoke his Earl side. Maybe CC is (or was) trying to urge Allen to become strong enough so Allen can fight the Earl and attack him until CC awakens him to his Pillar status. That could be one of Allen’s intended destinies. Destroy Time. Which is either the Earl or actual time itself.-

3 Allen somehow knew the original Pillar somehow. If it’s because he was once Bookman Jr then it’s possibly because canon hints the Bookman are aware of all secret history of all worlds. Bookman Sr most likely knows as much as Cross does. Allen has been called by the Campbell’s as the man who knows everything. Whatever Allen’s history is the Pillar knows him. Allen might actually even know how to stop the Pillar and Dark Matter. That’s why both sides want him. The Pillar wants to turn him into-

4 a Destroyer. Allen can defeat the Noah but possibly unleash another threat that’s just as bad. It’s all really confusing because has Adam always been the Pillar? Or was he a normal guy forcibly given the role of Earl after the previous one did it’s job. Is Mana the Pillar in Allen’s dreams talking to him from a repressed memory. Again either way Allen apparently is known by the Pillar. The question is if the Pillar and the Heart are different or the same and what that means for Allen?

(aah thanks fkdjhf i’m glad i make some sense after all)

And ohh good point about the pillar looking like a sword in a way. Really feels like the striking weapon to destroy it all huh. 

There is a good point there… why Tyki’s Noah self awoke upon contact with Allen’s innocence but Skinn died upon contact with Kanda’s? So far we always said it was a question of intend - Kanda wanted to destroy all of Skinn, but Allen was specifically trying to destroy only the Noah side.  But would Allen’s specifically work as a trigger reminding of the Pillar, huuuh….

the thing is that i think, if the Pillar is partially made of innocence, i could see it being from the Cube itself before it broke into pieces through the world - so it would be All Innocences at once. The Order believes the Cube broke into pieces after what happened 7000years ago, if we believe them and think the Pillar was the fusion of innocence and earl essence, then any innocence would count. But i suspect we still have the idea of at least powerful core to the innocence with the Heart and the likes of Apocryphos.

As for CC’s awakening i don’t know - perhaps? I think it as the first time CC was in contact with Dark Matter so had reasons to awake, i don’t know how much the Earl essence is to take into account there, but it could… it would give a very calculating image of CC at this point tho oof.

But yeah good point about the Destroyer of Time thing, i was thinking about that too. The prophecy is there, we know Bookman believes in it, and we know the Order interprets it as killing the Earl, but what if it implies merging with him, becoming the Pillar again? Man would you imagine tho, Allen’s destiny being to merge with Mana to “destroy it all”, especially considering how many pieces of him Allen already has in him? oof.

As for the Bookman to me the fact allen is caught into all of this and knows of those stuff and is called the man who knows everything does hint to Bookman!Past!Allen all over again and i really can’t see it otherwise.

It would make sense if Bookmen knew more than the Order, remember that the Order only had been around for a couple of centuries and that Bookman is the one who told the Order about the existance of the Noah after Rewinding Town, which even Lavi knew about at this point. They had been in the order for a couple of years at this point but they held onto that information until Road appeared and sent a message directly to the Order. So i’d be inclined to think the Bookmen know more about it that they let on and are probably closer to the truth than the Vatican ever was.

The Pillar seems to litterally be a double edged sword, since you brought up how it looks like a sword too. Who knows how it would work once it’s wielded… Hell it’s really hard to determinate since we legit just learnt about it. 

As for the question about Adam, that’s… the huge… huge question….

Mana and Nea are special because out of all Noah, they were those who weren’t born “human” per se, since they were made by the spliting of the Earl. I feel like this is not something say Tyki would be able to do. Hell, we can compare to the actual Noah Twins with the Jasdebi who seems to just be two people who awoke the memories of the Bound at some point, and yet… So, Mana and Nea’s nature itself is already super weird.What does it tell us about Adam? Humm…. I think it was told he was there for a few thousands year at least, before spliting at least. That this sadness of carrying all of this on his shoulders is why he split. 

So perhaps Adam is not like the others Noah, not awaken in human genes but an actual entity that keeps on living, like a heart of dark matter perhaps? But who the hell knows……

And here we really need to wait bc the chapter really put a spin away from the Noah mythos. We can’t really use the Bible as a starting point here. In it it was told that Noah was chosen by God for his family to survive. But according to Road and how it came out of nowhere, it doesn’t seem like Noah was chosen…. Or if it was, it was forcefully. The merging that is…. 

As for “if Mana is the Pillar” that would raise the question since in Allen’s dream the Pillar seems to talk to him: 

To me it doesn’t feel like the Pillar is having any respect or love for Allen and even less so for Nea. If that’s a memory that is. 

But we also have a Memory of Mana taking Allen away in this place…

Gaahh i really don’t knoooow anymore.

Personally i still feel like the Pillar may be a merging between the Earl and the Innocence in some way or another, and that it brought destruction : Hoshino likes to work in pairs with a secret third elements linking those pairs, so i wouldn’t personally look for One And Only thing to justify the existance of the Pillar. 

And how much would the “spliting of the Pillar” change what the innocence and the earl would want??

And indeed what would it mean for Allen?

I’m still so confused by all of this and at this point i feel like we’re really missing too big of pieces to look at the full picture yet… it’s complicateeeeed.

When we think we understand a bit of DGM we get proven wrong big time HUH.

[icharchivist]

After 234 dgm I feel like Innocence didn't come from God. That was just a lie some humans fighting against the Noah (or siding w/the the Pillar) tell all other humans so they'll be useful to their agenda w/their blind faith. Seriously Allen alone should show a lot of holes in what everyone had been told. A Noah who has perfect synch w/Innocence and has abandoned the Order. Yet he hasn't fallen despite all known logic. But everyone is so indoctrinated in believing what they've been told they-

2 question or try to learn more at all. They're all either blind sheep or have had their wills so beaten down they honestly can't comprehend a different way. The Noah now have a pretty sympathetic backstory. But they have also been given a even darker nature (didn't think,that was possible) by their using of the Earl as they torment humanity. No doubt the Order/Vatican's secret ultimate goal will also reveal a far more selfish and darker agenda then survival. There's only a few players here.

I actually completely agree with that.

To be honest I think trying to imply “God” in any of it was a way for the Vatican to justify what happened in some way.

The Bible do mention the Flood and Noah in it. We know the Order at least see the Flood as a broader thing - as those “Three Days Of Darkness”, not a flood specifically. So they know a devastation happened 7000 years ago, and they know Noah and his family survived.

Yet well the Pillar doesn’t seem to be darkness, and according to Road it came out of nowhere and devastated everything at once, and Noah sure wasn’t prepared for it. Which puts back the story into consideration. 

It’s just... easier to say “that was God’s will” than to look for the actual reasons. It could just be a simple way Humans tried to explain a tragedy and frame it into something “positive” - but now, this belief is the core of why they’re fighting against the Noah. And putting back into questions thousands years of stories they’ve used to justify their existence may be complicated.  so it’s easier to just... convince them all of that.(also wasn’t it mentioned that the Order only exists now for a couple of centuries? bc i think that also plays a huge part in how much there’s *no way* they can know about the details that happened this long ago, and they would have to cling to a story they know to try to justify why this new situation is happening)

Anyway, I think that “Innocence” and “Dark Matter” are.... their own things with free will in a way? Like i don’t think either is wielded by a God of anykind - but how did they come to this... that’s the question.

But as for the Vatican, I do think it’s likely they have no idea what they’re dealing with - they see a “weapon” that is collaborating with them and the Noah, as sympathetic as this backstory is, still are commiting attrocities nowadays, so they present themselves easily as an enemy. 

No matter the reasoning, Noah are killing people in masses and are weaponizing tragedies. Not knowing why they do that, it makes them a perfect enemy, so when you find a weapon that works against them, it’s easy to think “that’s going to save us all”, and, thus, “that must be how God is trying to help us”. 

So the Vatican could have no knowledge of how the innocence actually works, or what the innocence actually did in the past. It just sees it as a solution to a direct problem that is a real problem still, factually speaking.

I think the Vatican is mostly shortsighted as it goes: they have an old tale, they can apply the current emergency to it, they found a weapon that can fight a direct threat - and that’s the main part of it so far.

If the Vatican knows more than they let on, though, that’s a problem. And I think it’s largely possible. 

The innocence had done horrible things, even if a lot of it seems to be bc of how the humans misused it. But it should still be warning signs that the innocence isn’t all good. 

Tbh now that i’m thinking about it, remember what a fallen innocence looks like? This huge torso like figure that takes all over the sky? It became a mass destruction thing, and the Order knew it was a thing that happened with the innocence. They brushed it off trying to justify “it’s what happens when you betray us”, that helps controling people with fear - but i don’t think they think about the implications of the innocence being able to be this destructive over the very world the vatican thinks it’s meant to protect.

Idk i personally always found the innocence super fishy and it’s not getting any better with the likes of Apocryphos. The question is really how much the Vatican knows and how much they are trying to use it to their own ends.

I feel like this answer makes no sense at all sorry orz it’s all over the place, but this new chapter puts a loooot of things back into perspective and it’s hard to organize for now. There’s... a lot to process now.

Was fun trying to discuss it though :3c

[icharchivist]

*Learns about Dgm 234* Wow I have to give it to Cross. If I was a part of a organization that was so unbelievably ignorant about the world I'd want to run away from them all the time too. I totally bet the higher ups/Vatican know about this truth or at least are aware they aren't telling the Order the full truth. The question is if the Vatican is using the Order to try to get this Pillar for themselves. Does Neah becoming the Earl means HE could become the Pillar instead? Is that why Levierr -

2 wants to ally with the 14th so badly? He thinks he could control the Pillar through Neah? Idk I'll have to read the full chapter. My mind is blown. The Noah are even more complex then before. I'm even more lost on what Road and Wisely are planning and just why their bond to Mana is so different. Moreover, this just brings even more mystery over Allen. Where/when did he come from (this really added more bookman fuel to him)? Why does Innocence love him so much despite his chaotic life?

God irght??? 

I mean with Cross too it’s like, he’s been here for a long time and joined the Order late apparently only for then being all “wow you guys have NO IDEA what you’re talking about huh.”

And i think you’re right for the Vatican holding information, if i remember there was one very weird moment with representants of the Vatican at some point?? they seem to know something more than they let the Order know, but how much...

Like you said then i think that would explain Levierr’s attitude at least. 

I think personally that Nea is trying to take Mana’s place - if “Mana” as the Earl is supposed to become the Pillar and be sacrified/used for it, (whaterver the Noah are trying to do doing that) - i think Nea would clearly rather take his brother’s place to protect him. But therefore for Lveille that would be an opportunity - Nea is hated by the Noah, had killed Noah before - if he carris on becoming the Pillar he wouldn’t be supported by the Noah. Which would make him an interesting ally to have.

I could see perhaps Lveille not knowing details but knowing that the 14th is the best way to get his hands on something powerful.

Road and Wisely are a mystery yeah... Honestly it forces us to rethink the entiere dynamic the Noah have with the Earl and that’s... complicated.

My best bet would be that, before Nea killed them all, the previous Noah family had been around for a long, long time - enough to see their Earl disappear when spliting - which would explain why once Mana and Nea arrived they immediatly took Mana back as the Earl and hated Nea as a symbol of why their Earl had left them. So Nea killing all of them would be like doing a “soft reset” of the Noah family, forcing them all to awake in new humans again and lose their memories, thus making them forget how/why they wanted to use Mana to start with.As for Road and Wisely therefore they’re the only one who’d know what happened and they have a weird dynamic about it.....

I can’t get out of my mind the fact Road called the Noah “the Earl’s sacrificial lambs” though. If we really go with “the Earl will have to become the Pillar”, that’s as good a sacrifice as it gets, yet the whole Noah family seems to be ready to step up as sacrifices? It makes me wonder if that’s not a newer turn of event - but man we need more information for that.

And right for Allen? Honestly at this point i’m getting more and more convinced that Allen is really a human who got caught in the crossfire- and i still believe that makes him good as a Bookman, that happened to fall into the crossfire of innocence and Noah and is now the “battlefield” of those two powerful entities.But what the innocence wants of him......

We don’t know enough about Past!A but i don’t think CC belonged to him. I feel like CC merged with Allen when he started to become younger right? so CC must have known that Allen had Nea inside of him. Perhaps he’s another pawn for the innocence? 

I honestly don’t know this chap still confuse me, but yeah we have a lot to put back in question and i am sure next chapters will throw us all off guards... so let’s see i guess? :3c

Man that’ll be fun to pounder about..

[icharchivist]

Way back in Roads intro arc it's possible she was doing either one of two things. A) She was lying to Allen about the whole God was on the Niah's side. Road knew there was a script both sides were following and was playing along to mess with Allen or to further the Noahs deceptions. She knew the majority of the Order follows the belief God is on their side to justify their own atrocities and inspire hope. B) Like the Order, Road and the Noah's genuinely believe God is really on their side. -

2 The Pillar is similar to the Nephilim. Entities that exist outside of God's intended creation order and caused massive harm and evil upon the world. The Noah's use this as justification for their actions against humanity since they are fighting beings who fight for the Innocence that's apparently(?) connected to the Pillar that destroyed everything and will do so again. In that way the Noah are just as human as the Order. Using God as an excuse for the evil in their own hearts. Coming from-

3 this. I'd totally be down if a God does feature in DGM. Then he's so fed up with everyone. Like in a "all of you stopped talking TO me yet you have no problem acting like I'm telling you do all this." Basically everyone is running around claiming God is doing this for them when it's really just Dark Matter and Innocence playing everyone in this war they started. I do think Dark Matter and Innocence are a duo capable of becoming one. We have so much duality between them. Heck look at Alma and-

4 Allen. Alma was a Innocence accomodator merged with Akuma material. Allen is a Innocence accomodator who is also a Noah. I wouldn't be surprised if it's revealed Allen will also eventually become something after so much merging between the 2 forces inside him. Which is perhaps why Apocryphos is trying to purge Allen of his Noah nature to stop it. What that is? I don't know. But it's something contrary to Nea's plans so p!Allen didn't plan it that way. Honestly at this point I wouldn't be -

5 if Allen's Jesus character type becomes more literal. Like he's a fragment of a god like entity born as a human in order to stop both sides from destroying humanity/the world again. He came from the previous world like the Noah's but he's not fueled by hatred. He just got amnesia or lost faith or something. Not saying I expect it. Just saying I wouldn't be surprised. Wait! If Allen came from the Noah world. What if Wisely and Road remember Allen from back then!?

So for the most part i agree with everything you say except the Jesus thing but i’ll come back on that.

I think the two options you show for Road are likely - but i don’t know how to work one above the other. 

the whole God mention is so odd in the manga so far, and i could see him being left... undecided if he exists or not, that innocence and dark matter had just been individually at war, and people blame God for everything, leaving it up to debate whenever he exists or not.

But whenever they believed in God or are using the Order’s belief, it’s up to debate and i think both are possible. Hell even both at the same time could happen, like “yeah we believe but y’know what so do they and we can fuck them up with it”

The fact we were introduced to the Noah with Road saying “we are human... well not exactly” makes it very likely they are just as humans as the Order like you said - it’s just perhaps a little more.

And good point pointing out Alma and Allen’s situation as parallelism there. The duality between dark matter and innocence can happen, so i do think it’s likely there is a merging possible. 

And it is possible this may change Allen forever. I mean we know Nea taking over is erasing Allen, and we know Apocryphos is trying to erase Nea and Allen from the innocence. so that’s... an issue because Allen is disappearing from both sides there. I think both sides have different Agenda but Allen seems to be able to balance both out, and perhaps that’s what the 3rd side always needed - a balance between the two. A crossroad point.

As for Jesus figure it’s the one point i disagree on because I keep on thinking that Allen’s humanity is what makes it interesting. And I don’t really have an argument other than i really don’t think it would be that interesting if he was himself a part of God? Like....I feel like his own existence represent the conflict between dark matter and innocence in a small scale: him being human, being a witness of humanity, him being against his own will, the battlefield between two sides, is what is happening to humanity right now. I feel like like his humanity is his greater strength on that regard, he always fights for the part of humans in people, in akuma, in all, and I believe this is a stronger argument if he is just human who happens to be victim just like everyone else, just, yeah like i said, a smaller scale.

Likewise i feel like if Allen comes from the Past Civilization there might be a bit that would be lost about how it’s the current humanity that is suffering from the Innocence and Dark Matter’s wars for thousands years. I feel like the least Allen is anchored into the humanity he had grown into, the more we’re losing the touch of how this war is affecting Current Humans at that point.

So that’s why i have trouble to buy the Jesus thing and also the past civilization theory and i still don’t buy it now ldhfldk i’ve read theories about it, it’s neat, i just... idk i’m not the one with the arguments to talk about this theory since it really doesn’t interest me that much.

But hey, if i’m proved wrong, so far so good, Hoshino had always had interesting ways to twist her story, so depending how she presents it i may buy it! just.. not now in theory lands ahah.

that said I think at least Wisely and Road would remember Past!Allen. If Allen had been around for longer, it would be surprising if they don’t remember him at all. So I at least would give you that jhdkf. So far at least...

[icharchivist]

Not completely unrelated but definitely something that's been bothering me a little is that... Before they called it 'the pillar' I thought it was the Ark. Like, it does have a resemblance in looking like made of light,and somehow the shape, even if the Ark looks "broken" instead..

Oooh that’s interesting??

I personally never really thought that - the Ark looked too cubic for me while the Pillar always looked like a cross.... But i was puzzled bc we know the innocence manifested itself in cubes  too just like the ark and meanwhile somehow the Pillar reminds me of the shape the innocence can take, esp when on a Fallen, of this huge torso figure.....

I feel like both are probably more tied together than it looks but by all account, if we take the original story, the Ark was made in order to escape from the striking punishment.... So it would make the Ark being made of the same sort of matter perhaps...?

Perhaps it’s just that it was something more common to the Ancient Civilization but only the Pillar and the Ark survived. Perhaps it wasn’t planned for the Ark to. 

As for the Ark looking broken, the Earl does say that Nea and his “accomplice” broke the Ark to get it stuck in Edo back then, so the Ark looking broken could have nothing to do with the Pillar and just do with Nea’s actions.

But yeah......

the thing is that I think “Light” and “Dark” Matter aren’t that far of from one another. What if they were one and the same to start with until what destroyed the world forced the two things to be too different from one another? 

Like the innocence is always this torso, no arm, no leg, no head, but akuma are generally identified by the skull of their head, and even the Ark’s controlling room had what looked like a baby head in it. And as Akuma evolves, esp with the Level 4, the more human they look. So it feels like there is a purpose to the Dark Matter being identified by its head while the innocence by its torso.

While i’m at it i still wonder if it has anything to do with sort of Nephilims in a way. If i am not wrong, the Flood happened bc humanity was full of sin yes, but also because angels/fallen angels, had started to mate with humans and started to create abominations half humans/half angels called Nephilims, and one of the purpose of the Flood was to erradicate those.

If the matter in itself is like this sort of Angel matter, the innocence keeping its distance from humanity, but the Noah, would be descendants of Nephilims? The very thing the innocence wanted to destroy for being linked to humans? And Akuma would be a way to try to recreate Nephilims but it cannot be done the same way as before, so they try to do bastarding way to bring back Their Kinds if that makes sense? 

I don’t know. Just food for thoughts since i had this in mind for a bit.

I still can’t stop thinking about what the purpose of the Akuma is and the more we learn about the Noah the more we look away from the Akuma and the more i think we are missing a major pieces of the puzzle since the Akuma are part of a bigger plan for sure.Although boy doesn’t mean my conclusion is right there tho, i’m just trying to make sense of it in some way or another hhh.

I want to know...; Dgm reveals your secrets to me...