#destiny lore stuff

[awokennerd]

Hello fellow Ikora simps! I was looking at random stuff with Ghost in the Pale heart when I accidentally clicked on the button to look at the lore of the chest piece. And I'm glad I accidentally did that! Because it has sent me down a rabbit hole. Of course, I saw the flavor text and instantly knew it was about Ikora, so I had to read it. Here it is for people who haven't read it:

I love when we get little bits about Ikora's past that aren't crucible and her being Osiris's student. Another one of Ikora's comfort books! I love the mental image of Ikora reading it after a bad crucible match and Ophiuchus acting as a light so she could read. It sounds like a time where they were closer, long before the 61 years of them not talking.

And then the other detail, "And [Ikora] thought of other moments, of a warm hand covering her own as she read the text out loud for the thousandth time." A lover perhaps? I love how it's open ended, so you can insert any ship with Ikora (sorry Eris x Ikora shippers, but I'm totally reading this as Ikora on a date with Chalco Yong). I kinda wish bungie would give us her romantic/sexual orientation.

But other than simping for Ikora content, the whole detail about the traveler having a book based off of her memories with such detail is a really interesting rabbit hole. Like are all the things based off of our memory in the traveler because of the darkness inside of it? If the Pale Heart didn't have the witness in it, would it still look like these memories? It seems like it is most likely the traveler itself retaining these memories, not the darkness. So, does the light actually remember as well? Or is the traveler a being of both light and dark, but mainly light and so it can make these memories? I think it would make most sense if the traveler was made of both light and dark like the Veil. But these memories in the traveler just opens up another rabbit hole about the light and dark and I am glad they had Ikora ponder it a bit in the lore.

[thefirstknife]

The Infinite Forest

Sighs. This post has been on my mind since we saw the trailer for Echoes, because they showed us the gate to the Infinite Forest and I thought: how many people even recognise that? Let alone have been there? Or know stuff about it? It's not been in the game for over 4 years, outside of a few pvp maps.

The Infinite Forest was a victim of the yoinkening of planets at the end of Arrivals. Unlike Mars and Titan that have since returned, Mercury has not (and neither has Io) so there was really no reason to think about it until they decided to do something with that. And it appears they've decided, something I hoped they might do in Echoes, given that we've speculated from the start that it would be a Vex season.

But now that we did get the proof that we'll be dealing with it somehow, I want to get into it, and mostly because they gave us zero explanation about how is it even possible for us to consider the Forest. I'm going to have a normal time with this one. I know we'll get at least some answers in a few days, but I need to cook in the meantime so I don't descend into madness (too late). Obviously spoilers for this week under the cut, and also a long post:

What is the Infinite Forest?

How does it all work and why?

What happened to it?

Echoes

What is the Infinite Forest?

The best, and arguably only, source for this is unfortunately a vaulted campaign, Curse of Osiris. Here's a link to the campaign from Destiny Lore Vault, but there are also playthroughs around from the time it launched. It's not needed to watch the whole thing, although it is fairly short, but this is where most of the information about it comes from.

There's also the Osiris comics that accompanied the DLC; first two are available on Bungie's site. The third is only in the physical book, helpfully scanned here.

Probably the most concise explanations are from the campaign:

Reflection of Osiris: Behold — the Infinite Forest! A planet sized prediction engine, simulating trillions of realities in parallel, all geared towards a single Vex purpose. Keep going, and you'll see. Sagira: The Vex are simulating reality in here. Brute forcing the future. And before you ask: everything in here IS real enough to kill you.

And this entire lore tab:

Physically, I am beneath the surface of Mercury. That is what Sagira's sensors say. The Vex hollowed out the planet, replaced its molten heart with cold right angles. But that is not what I see. I see infinity. An infinity of possible worlds, so perfectly simulated as to be indistinguishable from the experiences I once called "reality." I can touch them, taste them, pass lifetimes in them! They grow within this machine like fruit upon a tree—no, a forest of trees, its fractal expansion nigh unmeasurable.

Essentially, the Infinite Forest is a simulation engine that the Vex use to make predictions and find possibilities that suit their goals. It's physically located inside of Mercury; the Vex dug into the planet and replaced its insides with the engine. So far it has only been accessible from Mercury, from a single gate. Putting my 7 year old screenshots here like grabbing pictures of loved ones from a photo album:

Ikora noted that Osiris spent a long time studying that gate back in the day, believing it's the entrance. And he was correct.

There is a Vex gateway near your location. Osiris spent years studying it. He was convinced it was the door to the infinite Forest. If it is still possible to find Osiris, we need to open that door.

Osiris, or rather, his reflection, also said:

First, I will show you where it all began. Mercury, untold centuries ago, before the Vex arrived. Here, the Vex planted the seed that became the Infinite Forest, and its Mind, Panoptes. Panoptes has a single purpose — reshape reality for the Vex.

To keep things simple, the campaign revolved around us stopping Panoptes from achieving the Vex' goals by using the Infinite Forest. We ended up killing it, of course. We did so by hopping around through the Forest, going to simulated pasts and futures.

But the Forest largely consists of a really weird constantly shifting space that looks like this:

Thank you past me for this really helpful screenshot. It looks like it's an open sky, but it's not; the ceiling is a solid flat surface. That is the surface of Mercury, seen from the inside of the planet. On the edges of the picture, there's two tall structures; one looks worn down and destroyed, the other looks newly built. These are the gates leading to the actual simulations. The left one leads to a simulated future and the right to a simulated past.

These structures are called "trees" and are the reason why this place is called the Infinite Forest. Each of these "trees" generates a simulation and leads there, but you have to go through this shifting reality with ever-changing platforms to reach them. This is the physical space needed to essentially "run" the Forest.

You can still see this on pvp maps Fragment and Convergence:

A lot of the stuff about how the Vex actually made this was not entirely confirmed at the time; the stuff about Mercury being converted back during the Collapse was something that's been in the lore since literally D1, but not much was known about how true any of that was or how it started and how it was done. This was somewhat cleared up later, in the first page of Trials and Tribulations (from Worthy). I say "somewhat" because like. Reading this page is an exercise for sanity:

Chrome-hooked appendages |breached sky, counted in triplets| stretched for miles through sun-soaked atmosphere. They bored |with deepest intentions| into the marigold sands. From the great temporal chasms |wailing mouths of creation| flowed an ocean |a second conception| of radiolarian fluid. Across the horizon |of definitive sprawl| the scene was |super-imposed design| resonant and |uniquely| multiplicative. Each injection site |form mirrored in the hundreds of thousands| fostered a new lineage in stone and steel and fluid. |They would live| the new age in sub-routine |sleep| and observation. They would foster the |metallic| seeds of a generation in |twilight| time. From the sites bubbled pools |progeny| of |endless possibility| that murmured chaotic, |lullabies of change| and wrung the Traveler's Light from Mercury. The Light coalesced |imbibed| within the pools. The planet transformed |reborn| into a |sleepless dream| machine of prediction.

Yeah. What this whole thing seems to be implying is a confirmation of Mercury being converted by the Vex during the Collapse. The Vex flooded the planet with radiolaria and drilled into it, changing its terraformed environment into a Vex world. Some of this is shown in Curse when we first visit the simulated past. The Vex appeared and started raising the spires and transforming the surface of Mercury into what we know it as. Its core was eventually fully replaced by the Infinite Forest.

After we killed Panoptes, Osiris essentially claimed the Forest for himself and returned there sort of indefinitely. He would leave years later, when he contacted us in Season of Dawn, though we know that he was periodically leaving anyway, since he was building the Sundial. It's not really been used for anything else, outside of various adventures and the quest for saving Saint which I went into in this post.

How does it all work and why?

It's always been kinda weird that the Forest was not a bigger deal, though it makes sense if we consider the out-of-game factors and the fans' general dislike of Mercury as a whole (which I personally think is a skill issue). The Forest was also difficult to work with so it was difficult to make new content for it which is probably why it was never really done, even though realistically, setting-wise, it should've.

It's mentioned in lore here and there, and Osiris spent his time there a lot up until Dawn. The Infinite Forest also alerted him that our actions drastically changed the Vex predictions which was serious and important enough for him to finally leave. So for all intents and purposes, the Forest was always a big deal, just difficult to implement into gameplay. This is quite unfortunate because it should've reasonably been something to use more, including explaining its danger a bit more in-depth over time. While Osiris did have a major influence over it post-Panoptes, the place was still largely Vex-controlled and they still had access to it.

So why is that dangerous in the first place? After all, it's just a simulation engine. That's true, but the danger is in how the Vex were using those simulations. By having access to a place that generates trillions of situations and possibilities, it allowed them to explore options that would normally be almost impossible to explore in-person, physically. Even the Vex, who can exist outside of time, would need to spend... well... time and resources to explore these options by simply time travelling. With the Forest, they could just generate them all at once, instantly, with no time passing outside of the Forest.

They could use this to simulate anything and then explore what would happen if they followed that possibility, which allowed them to predict more accurately. It allowed them to essentially run a certain scenario through every single possible iteration and see the outcome of all of them, then pick the option that suits them best and act accordingly. It could also let them study their enemies; by simulating many situations and observing how the enemies react in those situations, they could learn about the strategies their enemies use.

This is incredibly powerful and dangerous. But are there limitations to their simulations? Sort of... As we know, the Vex can't simulate Light or any other paracausality, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't try. This is where things get complicated because we lack a lot of the details about how this all works.

From what we can tell, the Forest can include simulations that feature paracausality and Guardians; it's seen in the intro cutscene for Curse where Osiris casually wanders into the Guardians raiding the Vault of Glass. It was also briefly mentioned in Lightfall's CE (page 28), where Elsie explores different timelines. In one of them, she finds Osiris wielding Stasis who tells her that he saw her wielding it:

"I saw glimpses of you wielding this power during my time in the Infinite Forest."

This is where things get complicated because we don't truly know if there are meaningful differences between normal simulations and simulations produced by a planet-size machine. The Vex, for all intents and purposes, can't really simulate Light and Guardians, but could they create simulations based on what they've personally experienced? After all, the Vex from the Vault of Glass experienced the Guardians raiding them; can they load up their memories and simply replay it? Would that even count as a simulation or is that simply just a recording that you can access within the Forest?

Is it accessible in other Vex spaces or is the Infinite Forest unique in some way? After all, there is also the Vex network as well as corridors of time. There's also some sort of overlap between them, according to Osiris:

...Vex security measures where the network intersects with the corridors of time.

There's even the implication that a simulation from the Forest could potentially escape the engine and enter the real world.

Sagira: Hey, team! Copies of the Cabal invasion are trapped inside the Infinite Forest. On the, uh, off chance one of them escapes, possibly armed with world-breaking Vex tech… Ghost: Wouldn’t be the first time. We’ll handle this.

There is also the whole question about timelines and realities and how that works in the Forest. Can you use the Forest to look into real timelines and realities, those that might be happening somewhere, or are they just projections and simulations of possibilities? Could you interact with them, and affect other timelines? This is an interesting question now that Echoes is going on with all the stuff about the Conductor and what's happening to Saint, but we currently don't know the answers.

What I think is the most likely is that the Infinite Forest is somehow unique and can offer a lot more than the normal Vex network; its simulation options are so well-developed and so powerful that it can genuinely simulate a lot more than the Vex usually would be able to, including showing glimpses of paracausality, especially glimpses that the Vex have themselves recorded in their interactions with Guardians. Then, they can use the Forest to try and build on that, essentially train the engine by feeding it trillions of data points to attempt to make accurate simulations that lead to good predictions.

And these seem to be the key words: accurate and prediction. The point of simulations is not just to look at things, it's to use them to be able to predict things, giving the Vex an advantage. This is directly referenced and discussed in the lore:

There's just one thing: if Osiris used the Infinite Forest to develop his prophecies, and the Infinite Forest cannot accurately simulate Light, how did Osiris predict the Traveler would wake? The Forest's very inability to predict this very thing is what prevented Panoptes from breaking ground with its apocalyptic calculations.

So what exactly is the Forest capable of? It can definitely show the past even if it involves paracausality. It can also show the future, though the accuracy of any future predictions may be in question, depending on the amount of paracausality involved. It's very much implied that it can also show other timelines and/or realities. And of course, it can simulate future possibilities, as well as show simulations of anything from the past; events or places alike. For example, Osiris simulated the Fundament, apparently:

Ghost: The Forest can generate so many Hive - it might as well be their homeworld. Sagira: We've thought about that. Ghost: Have you simulated the Hive homeworld? Sagira: Didn't go well.

If there are specific limitations, we're not sure what they may be. There probably are, but they're most likely deliberately not spelled out to prevent any kind of conflict with stuff they might want to add to the Forest later; like for example now, with Echoes. Because there's a lot of questions right now about the Forest now that Ikora has so casually told us we're going to be going back in there. So...

What happened to it?

As has been established, the Forest is physically located on Mercury. Or rather, in Mercury. Its one and only entrance is on Mercury as well. And Mercury has been eaten by the Witness over 4 years ago. So that's it then? Well no. Not only is the Forest on an inaccessible planet, it has actually been sealed, from the inside, before the planet was taken.

He struggled with his pack as a tempest beat on his eardrums. He withdrew his Infinite Simulacrum, impossibly small in this immense space, and with trembling fingers synchronized it to the frequency of the crack in the Forest. It ticked like a metronome and then… Silence. The Forest was sealed.

Instead of evacuating, Brother Vance decided to stay on Mercury, go into the Forest, and seal it. I go about it for a long time in this post, but basically he believed that it would be really bad if the Pyramids gained access to the Forest. He also believed that the Sundial did something to the timelines and that the Pyramids could exploit that, as well as the Infinite Forest being somehow "the key to all of this."

He also wanted to use the Forest to... spread hope. Through the timelines?

"I will walk into the Infinite Forest and spread hope, Guardian."

He essentially wanted to do something and prove that even Lightless people can still help. He appeared to be willing to die for this, which is quite strange mostly because this whole idea and endeavour wasn't in the name of Osiris. Hell, in a way, it was about doing something to fix the unknown consequences of Osiris' meddling with the timelines.

You notice Vance's hands are balled tightly at his sides. "The Pyramids draw close. Through this system and beyond, the Lightless are filled with fear. I am no Osiris, true, but in my small way, I will bring light to their darkness." There is clarity in his voice. "I will tell them they must believe."

Since I've gone into it in the other post in a lot more details, I won't go into it here again, although I could. But the point that I want to get across is that the sealing of the Infinite Forest was quite a significant part of Arrivals and the whole plot of the evacuation of Mercury (or rather the non-evacuation of Mercury; the sole reason for Vance staying was to seal the Forest).

In another post (you'll have to scroll through the back-and-forth insanity) I also mentioned how much of Vance's story in Arrivals seemed to be connected to him losing his mind about the effects of the Sundial on the timelines. It also directly links to the Perfect Paradox. All of these things have been quite prominently connected to this episode, especially the stuff with the Sundial and what Osiris has done with it and how it may or may not have affected the timelines and, most of all, Saint and the whole ordeal of saving him.

It's fairly unclear how many characters know what happened to the Forest though. The YW knows obviously because Vance told us directly. I do believe that Zavala would also know as we reported back to him, which also most likely extends to Ikora as well. Another issue is that we don't really have any specific proof that the sealing was successful or permanent. It seems like it was, but a lot of stuff could've happened in the past 4 years of Mercury being in an anomaly.

As I've mentioned many times before, Mercury is the last unsolved plot from Arrivals; as in, we genuinely don't know anything about it. Mars has returned in WQ and Ana's side of the story was concluded in Seraph. While Io is still gone, Asher's story was concluded in Defiance through Avalon. Titan returned in Deep, which solved the story of the planet and also Sloane. We know why these planets were taken (with the exception of Io, though it's fair to assume it had something to do with the Pyramidion because of Asher's story being tied to it), and we know what happened to all of the vendors. Except Mercury and Vance; two things inherently connected to the Infinite Forest.

We don't truly know why Mercury was yoinked, though it's once again fair to assume it was most likely for the Forest. But you know. It got sealed so the Witness couldn't do anything with it and we have no idea what it was doing with Mercury all this time. We also don't know what the hell was Vance on about when he talked about the "anchored timelines" and how the Forest is incredibly important to everything. Due to how unreliable he is, it could just be his usual cringefail. After all, Osiris himself did not have any plans for the Forest himself; he was upset that he'd lose it, but he didn't think anything more about it, even if during Dawn he insisted that the Forest cannot be sealed or destroyed yet.

But also I think dismissing it all is an easy mistake to make, and possibly a deliberate one. Everything with Vance is written to be as easy to dismiss as possible, but he did know certain things that were absolutely correct and real. Not to go on about the tones again, but. Yeah. And given the current situation...

Echoes

Failsafe has come up with a plan for which she needs data from the Vex. She specifically needs data that can be compared to the altered Vex on Nessus, so we need large amounts of information that hasn't been changed or messed with. She concluded that the best source of that data would be Saint's dead body. It exists in a specific space (and time) and would have this information; information that has not been altered or influenced by anything else because that Saint is dead and preserved as is.

Failsafe explained this to Ikora and Ikora agreed that this is the best source, she's just worried about how this will affect Osiris and Saint. She doesn't want us to tell them. So next reset, we're going to the Infinite Forest to find Saint's tomb again. Yay!

But like. How?

They presented this so casually, with Ikora even saying that the best "accessible" source of this data is the Forest and Saint's tomb. And I know that they know that we know that Mercury is gone and that the Forest was sealed. But they've already showed us the gate to the Forest on Nessus, twice: in the mini showcase and then in the intro to the season in-game:

The first picture is showing the gate when it's open. And yes, this specific portal effect has only ever been used for the Forest. The second image shows the gate when it's closed with that impenetrable barrier. The structure itself is different from the original; it's worn down, coloured differently and doesn't have the same tip - instead there's the weird orb and the statue. It looks far more Nessus-like, and closer to present-day Vex, or maybe future Vex. But it's guarded by Precursors, so I don't know. It definitely doesn't look like the original however.

We clearly aren't going to Mercury. And even if we were, how would we enter? Neither Failsafe nor Ikora have mentioned this little problem and it seems as if they already know that the gate is on Nessus; I assume they'll discuss the details of this in the Act 2 finale next week. But the problem is that without all of this context, how do they even explain the issue with the Forest? They can always shorten this to some reasonable quick explanation, but they still have to explain how are we entering the Forest. There's a few key problems.

Obviously, number 1 is that the Forest is on Mercury and as of now Mercury is still in the anomaly.

The Forest itself is sealed from the inside.

So far it has not been possible (or at least not known to us) to enter the Forest from any other location. As we've seen, Osiris spent years looking for the entrance and back in Arrivals he was quite upset about losing the Forest. If he simply had the ability to enter it without being physically on Mercury, then why bother or lament Mercury's loss?

It is, to our knowledge, one of a kind. It took quite a tremendous effort to build it and it requires a lot of power to run; a whole planet.

Possible solutions:

Mercury is back and Ikora hasn't told anyone yet because she doesn't want anyone to go there yet; perhaps it's in quarantine. I don't think this is very likely, but it's possible.

Opening a gate to the Forest from another location IS possible and we just didn't know about it.

Opening a gate to the Forest from another location is possible only because of the situation with the Echo; a powerful source of paracausal power can maybe help us do this remotely. So this simply wasn't an option before the Echo's existence.

The Vex and the Conductor have built or are still building a new Forest inside of Nessus this time. The Vex lost access to the original, either simply because of the anomaly or because it was sealed or both, so now with the Echo they're just doing it again, and better. So the Forest we're going into is not the original, but a new one; the assumption being that the data from the old Forest is accessible to the Vex so the new Forest can essentially run the same code as the old one, allowing us access to Saint's tomb.

The Vex and the Conductor only have to build a new gate that can lead us to the old Forest, despite it being in an anomaly and despite it being sealed. It essentially just brute forced another door.

And the possibilities in regards to it being sealed:

As I mentioned before, maybe the sealing wasn't as successful as we (or Vance) thought.

Vance is somehow still alive and he will open it for us from the inside, essentially concluding his role from Arrivals.

Maybe the sealing wasn't permanent; either the Vex could eventually counteract this, or Vance couldn't hold it closed for very long. He's a Lightless man and it's quite dubious how long he could survive inside. Maybe the seal automatically broke when (if?) he died.

If we're going with the option that this is a new gate to the old Forest, then as I said before, this may simply be able to counteract the seal.

If we're dealing with a completely new Forest, the seal may simply not even be in effect. The old Forest is sealed, but we're not going to the old one so it doesn't matter.

What I'm assuming is that Osiris could open the gate if he saw one again, so if the gate is simply now on Nessus (either to a new Forest or connecting to the old one), Osiris can just use his cubes as he did before and open it again, counteracting the seal. Vance's device used to seal it was made from Osiris' notes anyway, so I'm assuming it's something similar to the cubes. In that case it can just be opened with the same thing.

Ikora will just blast it open like she did back in Curse. Seal or no seal, new or old Forest, she doesn't give a shit,

There's an option for all of these that's basically just they don't mention it all. I don't think this is very likely, but hey. It's possible!

I've been running these scenarios in my head for days. Actually, I've been running them ever since the showcase for Echoes showed us the gate to the Forest, but this significantly increased when this week confirmed that we are indeed heading in there. And it was delivered so matter-of-factly as if there aren't any of these problems and scenarios I listed above. This is baffling me. I know there will be some explanations offered, but the setup completely blindsided me with how it was delivered. Ikora with the simple "Oh yeah the best place to grab data from is the Infinite Forest. Pack it up boys." And I'm standing there with a 8 hours long presentation asking her to explain how. She blocks my number on vannet.

Perhaps the situation is far simpler than I'm making it out to be. It would be really easy to just write the old Forest and Mercury away as being permanently lost. That way you don't have to explain or deal with any of the stuff with the anomaly or the yoinkening or Vance's shenanigans. I will obviously remain forever unhinged about it if that's the case because I simply need to know what happened, but it's the easiest way to deal with this. The Echo allowed the Vex to make a new Forest, they're using massive amounts of radiolaria and the core of Nessus to just recreate it all, then they copied all the data from the old one into it, booted it up and that's it.

But what if the seal is in effect? Or what if we're dealing with the old Forest on Mercury that's still in the anomaly? How do they plan to deal with that in a single mission? Well... We have no clue.

Bungie article lore time, but back last year in the State of the Game article, they said this about the pvp map Multiplex:

Although many of us had been thinking about a lo-fi Vex map for the Crucible, the challenge of this palette was the possible lack of player orientation in the play space. We thought bringing the Mars palette into the Vex Network realm would be a great way to mitigate this while adding an evocative look. Narratively, the space is in the middle of compiling the Infinite Forest, so this is what you’ll see in action.

Yes, while everyone was losing their mind about this article, I was looking for lore about the Infinite Forest. But yeah. It seems like they have information about it in the network and they were using it to compile that information; perhaps preparing to make a new one? Or simply using it for data.

So essentially, the Vex could have enough information about the Forest to recreate it, and better now with the Echo, which would allow us to simply bypass the anomaly and the Forest being locked, while allowing us to enter and still find Saint's tomb. This is by far the easiest solution.

But I want a conclusion on Mercury and Vance. I feel like this episode is the only time to really do that and they've been giving us so many Mercury things already, clearly showing that it was a big inspiration for it all. The music, the assets, the enemies. This includes the stuff about Saint and his grave, as well as the whole thing with the Perfect Paradox. There's still Act 3 of course and some still unknown exotic mission, but I feel like the quest that has us literally going into the Infinite Forest to revisit a place not even from Dawn, but from Curse, is the best spot to also deal with this.

I just have no idea how that's going to happen and I wanted to list out the stuff that would have to be somehow addressed and solved, even if the solution ends up being the simplest one. I also wanted to try and list some information about the Forest itself since this thing has not been in the game for years. I hope this was useful and that it explains things well.

Anyway, I've spent the whole week pacing around my room like a wild animal. Help.

In conclusion:

[kaiserouo]

headcanon warning

bonus

no he doesn't

[3416]

1634 make me genuinely ill because there are just.... so few bonds in this sport where you look at them and go. that was 100% meant to happen like that and no one else could've slotted in. like yea, so many of players across the league form close bonds and friendships bc that's the nature of spending a whole part of your life sharing a common goal and space when you're like.. doing this team activity... and guys are constantly befriending ppl and moving on... but auston and mitch it's like. it's almost like THEY feel that they were supposed to have that bond... and go out of their way to reaffirm it at every turn... like they met and got along and loved each other immediately and were so excited to get to play hockey together only to NOT get to for a long while and while they waited, they ??? developed all these rituals. and these things together... their personal routines, things to communicate to each other that they have each other's backs and are building each other into their visions and superstitions and dreams, some of which we'll never know about (unless they'd so kindly like to tell us a la mitch's interview with cabbie where he says maybe some day he'll share the gifts auston's gotten him w the world. tell all book when mitch).. but their gloves and their handshakes and their warmups and even the way they walk into road games and it's jsut. like it's friendship, for sure, obviously. they get along off the ice and make each other laugh the most and have a good time, but it's also the inextricable linking of their own careers. BY THEIR OWN DOING. like they want their names jotted next to each other and that's PART of the chase for this greater goal. yes, they would have been talked about in tandem anyway bc they're out here being the best leafs ever and hitting milestones like 500 points.... 600 points... just weeks apart from each other season to season. but also it's their commitment to each other that makes them talked about too. it's commentators saying they love to play together bc they can see it. they've heard them talk about it. they watch it. "marner to matthews" "matthews to marner". they're always gonna know where each other are.... it makes me . feel. violent with love, lol. makes me feel like some things are definitely meant to be.

[narwhalandchill]

also mistake not my silence on the summer event story now that its all out for not paying attention bc. well firstly not going to be the subject of this post but seriously just the . Overall implications of the whole thing when it comes to teyvat and genshin as a whole? wild stuff like are they rly out there revealing the entire cosmology now 😭 (tho i kinda have. Mixed thoughts as well)

anyway secondly and most importantly because of course i have priorities (its ajax we all know) . soooo simulanka and names eh?

HUH!

well not that i was any doubter to begin with in that it like. meant something when hit game jenshin impact featuring guy already foreshadowed and being set up for some real curious world-overturning and celestia torching business etc etc etc coincidentally named. ajax. among other things. that the same game happening to Also begin introducing this whole other ajax/aias as an actual historical figure featured within the games lore and legends. would very much be just a massive fucking thing we Should be taking very seriously in terms of his future development but like thanks very much for confirming it too uwu

anyway let us look at my favorite french cultist scribbled note for no particular reason once more just to celebrate the occasion

i mean what can i say man . truly the endgame relevance long term allegations continue undodged 😤😤

anyway whats kinda funny to me is the way a lot of ppls reaction to this name confirmation seems to be like. omg ajax is in trouble now bc irl mythology ajax died and ajax/aias of genshin also seems to have possibly had a shit fate by the end im so worried omg . when like. literally the second part to this whole "name = inheriting destiny" thing we see in simulanka is that . with the right circumstances . the one that inherits the name and destiny is not necessarily doomed to that exact same outcome as the original . like we all did see how we saved simulanka durin right?? and how the existence of mini durin may now open up the possibility of teyvats durin to receive a different outcome to his tale???? right??

like why do ppl have so little faith in childe im 😭 like if you ask me hes Already giving indication of defying his fate in a multitude of ways (vision malfunction being a big one) so personally i simply think we need to let him do his thing and see where he goes with it . i have faith in him like if Anyones abt to subvert the fate hes been set up with be it due to his name or any other reason . its gonna be him lmao

like. its not even new stuff kwdwdjkdwjk

either way tho . even if this fucker straight up "dies" or goes MIA im not even that worried bc. ppl worrying about this "tragic fate" his namesake seems to be conferring to him by default with simulankas explicit confirmation of a names meaning . and its just are we straight up missing the fact that this historical ajax/aias is Literally connected to that rent free narzissenkreuz note that EXPLICITLY aligns this "tragedy" with the theme of REBIRTH. and becoming a descender straight up .

like maybe its just me but this Really isnt giving "omg childe is going to die due to mirroring the fate of ajax" its giving "childe is Literally being set up to become sth descender equivalent one way or another AND theyre doubling down on it now" im sorry 😭

like. even the implications of phrases like. "forsaking the self" to be reborn in the abyss just reminds me of this. weird panic people have around childes vision malfunction as if its like. vision is GOOD ambition and his GOOD ending and his GOOD characteristics and it malfunctioning means BAD EVIL SIN ambition and WRONG characteristics is taking over!!!!!!!11! hes being torn into two different directions and the abyss is bad and vision (=celestia) is good!!!!!1

and its like. say we even buy that (but like dang what a sustainer sponsored take to have in a. gnostic inspired lore environment JWSJKJKSF) . that his. "correct" and "healthy" destiny as vision wielder (that Every single recipient of a "gods EYE" gets like forcibly and irrevocably bound to by design and surely this isnt problematic at all) . is a part of that "self" that is being forsaken and twisted as his destiny pushes against celestias control and his connection to said vision falters . lets say we assume that is a "bad" thing for his "intended" path and destiny somehow .

(which YES it prolly is. but only within the bounds of a world order set up by the heavenly principles!!! of COURSE the HP would force people into destinies and paths that Only serve the continuity of its rule!!! and doesnt shake up the system!! like yes a vision likely represents and assigns to people a "Good" ambition but thats not from the recipients POV thats from celestias POV and at this point its just. fellas. we are not supposed to buy into that at face value lmao)

which like. again. i v much dont buy anyway i think every single time genshin calls something sin or forbidden it should be assessed v critically.

but even with that assumption we can still see how this very note is already implicating that "forsaking the self" is Literally a prerequisite . in this grand destiny featuring ajax/aias . for reaching True rebirth as a holy infant and a descender and all that . for defying the shackles of the heavens . for gaining a will that rivals the world . right???

+ also if like. forsaking the self being mayhaps and perchance more of a GOOD thing in a world with preordained and unyielding destiny set up by false divinity wasnt already established enough

welp thank you rene narzissenkreuz.

oh "excising the self" you say?? that sure sounds a bit like "forsaking the self" doesnt it ??? how curious that it would be considered less of a "death" and more of a "rebirth" indeed . and that a vision to a cultist very invested in the methods available to Defy a prophecy and fate is very much a bad thing to receive . like what a coincidence that we would have a note like this as an established character already tied to a note you wrote about acquiring a descenders will is experiencing vision compatibility issues its very funny indeed.

so like ig what im trying to say is just idk for me personally if ajax is out there forsaking his self by any metric im just gonna be cheering him on <3

but yeah jkqjkwdjkwdjkwd dont mind me im just kinda rent free with how its now just even more confirmed by hoyo that this insane ajax/aias note stuff is Not meant to be coincidental At All (even tho its very funny ppl doubted the signifance to begin with at all). but also i just dont get the panicking abt it being some bad thing lmao like this is just genuinely hype as fuck for him 😭😭😭

[hanzajesthanza]

this looks like a long time but initially it said 1 MONTH 15 days

[wastedpotentialsblog]

I've been thinking about this all week. There are a lot of threads and puzzle pieces floating around in my head, but I can't put them together in a satisfying way.

The most likely scenario I have is this:

The OXA machine is likely derived from Vex influence, like the Device created by Ishtar. That would explain how the Vex have data on it in the first place and why both machines are practically identical. The Vex are pervasive, so it's likely that the Psions have encountered them while they were free, or Otzot used Vex tech when they rebuilt it after its destruction after their enslavement. Using the OXA machine to guide them and the Sol Divisive's research, Otzot seeks to reverse-engineer the mind-melding technology used by the Witness (successful attempt) and Maya (failed attempt) to become a God-Thought, a term used by Psions (or at least a Psion under Caiatl) when referring to powerful psychic leaders. We already know Psions are capable of merging minds and even bodies. Tazaroc, Niruul, and Ozletc did this when they formed Inotam during the Season of the Dawn, using an "ancient technique."

This makes the most sense, but I feel like there are holes that I can't see. Either way, Micah's Ghost missions are pulling loose threads and using them to start weaving a tapestry. I'm excited!

[wtfforged]

beautiful friend tagged this post as aesc

[emmster]

i dont know anything about destiny but im about to deep dive to understand this funky fresh au you got

It’s a fun series to get into. Lots of rich lore and a bit of science fiction horror in the mix.

Also a lot of fluff too. Guardians being normal disaster human beings.

Check out my name is Byf on YouTube. He has a lot of good lore breakdown videos. Also the Ishtar collective has all the lore pages from both games

[chrimsone]

sjsodidjei3ndofjr I love Still Hunt's lore!! We just don't get Cayde's inner thoughts at all outside of these moments, and he still keeps a lighthearted persona for others

Even after everything, he still has to shield himself emotionally :(

[awokennerd]

Ikora Rey, the Stormcaller?

Okay, so shout-out to Destiny Lore Vault on YouTube for uploading videos on Osiris' Interpretation. They are from the Lightfall campaign. I'm not sure if you get them from completing the last mission, but that is when I listened to them all. If you haven't listened to them, basically they are the five elements we can now use in containers around Osiris in the Hall of Heroes and he briefly explains a bit about each. It's a nice touch for New Lights or returning players, as it describes what Void, Solar, Arc, and Stasis are. Osiris also explains his current understanding of Strand as the fifth.

(TLDR at the end!)

Here is the dialogue from each of them:

Strand is our newest foray into Darkness. As I understand it now, it is the elemental manifestation of psychic connection. All minds are connected in a web of consciousness, which we can now see and feel. To wield Strand is to pull on the hidden connecting threads, and to use them to create, manipulate, and unravel. I had assumed this element would behave similar to our other Darkness ability. But unlike Stasis, mastering Strand seems to require one to relinquish control. To embrace the connecting threads, and perhaps flow WITH them. I look forward to experimenting more with this new element.

Stasis is the element of will and control. It slows, detains, and shatters. It was our first step into Darkness, and taught us the universe is not as black and white as it first seemed. Elsie Bray and Eris Morn have slightly different interpretations of how one masters this element. Fitting, as Stasis thrives on individual will, but merging their thoughts gives me this... Control over the self can foster control over others, but without power over the self, destruction runs wild. When we wield Stasis, we must exercise the ultimate authority over both self and others.

Void is the element of cosmic distortion. It is the pull of gravity and the promise of entropy. The vacuum of space, and the gravitational forces that shape it, teach us that emptiness is not nothingness. In Ikora's words... "To wield Void is to draw strength from both the immeasurably small and the unfathomably massive." With it, we bend the very fabric of space-time.

Arc is the element of motion and conduction, and is created when the electromagnetic forces of our universe struggle to achieve balance. According to Ikora, Arc teaches us that change is a fundamental aspect of the universe. "To wield it is to ride the storm of the unguessable."

Solar requires us to both exploit and rely on the power of our sun. But to master it is to understand the star's duality. The nuclear force that scorches anything foolish enough to draw near... is the same force we harness to heal. It feeds the flora of our galaxy, just as it begets drought and famine. Destruction and re-creation are a necessary cycle.

One thing is really interesting--who Osiris decides to quote for each. Obviously, it's only really him and the young wolf who know about strand at this point, so he just gives his own thoughts on it. And well, he is known as the Phoenix, so obviously he is also just giving his own interpretations there. Mentioning Elsie and Eris makes sense for Stasis, since they are part of the "Darkness Vanguard" of Beyond Light (and would be the types to have more academic thoughts on it then say Drifter).

But then we get to Void and Arc, and interestingly, he quotes Ikora for both. Obviously the two most well-known/prominent lightbearers of Void are Ikora and Saint. I assume Ikora has done a lot more academic work than Saint on Void, thus Osiris doesn't quote his husband.

But why Arc? This really makes me wonder if Ikora was a Stormcaller before becoming a Voidwalker. But at the same time, this made me realize we don't really have an arc users well-known enough in the game currently (and I mean well-known enough for them to quote it to possibly people who don't read the lore/new to d2/returning players). We have so many solar users, a few void users, and lots of people who either use different elements or their preference isn't specified. But arc? Saladin used it in the one lore entry where Lady Efrideet yeeted him, but that is about it.

So yeah. Just something that made me rant to my boyfriend while we listened to these together. Even he was kinda surprised Ikora was quoted for arc. Idk, is this back up in lore that I haven't read? Or is this new lore that perhaps Ikora was a Stormcaller? I've always assumed she was a Dawnblade before becoming a Voidwalker.

TLDR: Osiris decides to quote Ikora when giving a brief overview arc, which is pretty random. Was she a stormcaller at some point or do we just have like no other arc-users to quote?

[thefirstknife]

Hi Bel! If YOU could make an expansion, what would you theme it around?

I've been thinking about this ask for 2 days and I still don't know, there are so many things I would want to go into it. It's impossible for me to choose. Possibly my biggest interest is exploring the universe in some way and uncovering its history.

Instead, I am asking all of YOU what would you theme an expansion around. Put it in the tags.

[wannabemasterofwindintraining]

Someone draw euphrasia for me pls i think about her 24/7

[morbid-mary]

I am frustrated. How the heck does anybody find lore in this game. I just want to understand and learn *cries in the corner*

[silverolivia-upsidedown]

Me: runs the seasonal activities as I obsessively try and get new voice lines to screenshot >.< Yes. I might be screenshotting the dialog now because my memory is that bad and sometimes they drop some BIG lore things off-handedly >.<

[haldenlith]

Eeeeeeeeeeh...

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh...

I don't know how good I feel about that interaction between Mara and Crow. Mara feels defanged and weird and soft. I still maintain Crow has way too quickly done a 180 on his feelings about her. Like I get that he's a softie and a bleeding heart at the core of it all, but they made a point of pointing out that he was VERY irritated over how she treated him, all the way up to even Season of Defiance, this year. (And rightfully so -- Mara did treat him pretty fucking badly, all the way back to when they were teens before they were even fucking Awoken.)

Coming back and tacking on an aside: the soft thing with regard to Mara bugs me because I always got the vibe that she reserved her more emotional soft side for Sjur. To everyone else, she was Queen Mara, cold, mysterious, calculating. To Sjur, she was just Mara, the woman. To see that change feels... weird and out of character, to me.

It's what I loved about his arc, honestly, that he had the hindsight and clarity to finally step back and go, "Actually, wait a minute, that was a pretty one-sided and fucked up relationship. Maybe I should be more careful from now on, not follow people blindly, and maybe have some boundaries..."

And now it feels like he's just... falling right back into the "you're my sister, I'll be by your side and do anything for you" bit ALL OVER AGAIN. Or at the very least, the reconciliation between the siblings feels very rushed. I would've liked to see a little trepidation, a little caution. "I know why you're protective of me, you're my sister, but... I'm not sure I trust your brand of 'protection'."

I just keep feeling really frustrated by the writing here. This is also making me even more worried what they're going to do to my dude.