joncowesttech

[homosexualworkaccount]

Jason Todd’s “Replacement” nickname for Tim Drake, Origins and Popularisation

So, making a 2500-word essay on how a fanon nickname that only me and like two other people care about is not how I expected to spend my time in between exams.

A lot of Batfam fans are very, very much aware of the fanon “Replacement” nickname Jason has for Tim, and a lot of us very, very much hate it due to the connotations of fanon characterisation that it has. I don’t personally, I think it’s an alright enough one that fits into the established canon ones – but to be fair, I haven’t read the comics in a hot minute, so my memory could be screwy.

I got curious one day on where the nickname came from when a user on TikTok mentioned that it might’ve originated from a Batfam incest fic (They weren’t too sure and told me to take it with a grain of salt) – so shout out to them for starting me down this rabbit hole! I looked over on here and saw that notion repeated, though no one could pinpoint me to a specific fic beyond “It was popularised from a Batfam incest fic.”. I also saw a few people say that it was derived from canon, which piqued my interest further so I decided to go down a rabbit hole of fandom history purely for some fun.

The aim of this essay is just to clear up some misconceptions around the origin of the name, all fun and no harm. Don’t send harassment to people referenced in this either over a silly nickname, it's been well over a decade since they wrote the works used here.

Preface

Alright, first things first – all sources are going to be ones that were published after August 2005, the official date the first issue of Batman: Under the Red Hood was published, where Jason was established to be alive again.

While there could be a chance that the nickname was derived from a website/fanfiction before 2005, it’s highly unlikely due to the fact it was only popularised in the early 2010’s, and well, because Jason was dead and no one gave a shit about him. Also good to remember that most websites that ran before 2005 are defunct and purged from the internet now, particularly fanfiction websites (such as Quidzillia) due to various issues (taboo, copyright, costs to run ect).

Small note to make again – the Batfam fandom was fairly small at the time, the more fandom-y part of the DC community usually sticking to their own websites like Quotev, Quidzilla (again, defunct now), AO3, Fanfiction.net, LiveJournal and independent websites (again, defunct) while the rest stuck to discussion sites, so the entire fandom functioned more as a insular community from what I could tell. I will be working with the assumption that the nickname was created on one of the larger platforms, as any other platform didn’t have large enough influence to popularise the nickname.

The nicknames that I specifically looked for was simply Jason calling Tim Replacement in place of his actual name. Something like “Replacement Robin” was on very thin ice, but still counted as an offshoot. Anything else was off bets.

This whole thing will be split into a few sections to make some things for myself easier. Preface, Sources, Pre-cursor Fanfiction, Fandom Opinion and Language, First usage, Popularisation, Conclusion, Questions, Final Notes.

Sources

Fanfic.net – Created 1998, was and remains one of the larger fanfiction sites. Note; Fanfiction.net had various periods of time where there were large scale purges of fanfictions that held more mature content. Most notable instances were in 2002 and 2012.

Archive Of Our Own – The holy grail for my research. Created in 2008. For the information I got from there I used the search filter Date Updated, tagged Jason’s and Tim’s individual tags and followed from there.

Live Journal – Created 1999 and was used as one of the larger sites for fandom and fanfiction. Was used by DC fandom goers regularly so I used it to get an idea of the fandom at the time.

Tumblr – Created 2007. Theres various people on here who have compilations on DC timelines and comic sourcing that helped me correlate fandom growth with specific comic releases (Shout out to @ectonurites for their meta posts and timeline posts, they were a major source for this!). Dogshit filtering system, so I couldn’t find posts pre 2012 about DC.

Note; Quotev and Wattpad weren’t used in this as their filtering systems don’t account for searching for older fanfictions, so sadly had to be discarded as most fanfictions between 2006-2010 on those websites are now very difficult to find.

Pre-Cursor FanFiction

So, before we get to the actual first proper use I could find of “Replacement”, I first want to mention a fanfiction that had something very similar that I think would be important purely for archiving reasons around how the nickname came to be. And also because it fits the nickname criteria I mentioned earlier.

Published on the 29th of November 2006, last updated on the 28th of November 2007, was the fanfiction My-Enemy-My-Brother on Fanfiction.net by user theunknownvoice – featuring the first use of Jason referring to Tim with a nickname including replacement, Replacement Robin. Kudos to theunknownvoice, they created the very first nickname that would kickstart the rest.

While Jason doesn’t explicitly refer to Tim as Replacement – the main subject of this essay, it comes very damn close, so I wanted to include it. There is a part where Jason repeats replacement in his head multiple times, and I think he’s supposed to be referring to Tim, but the sentence isn’t very clear on that part, so I won’t count it, but it is important to acknowledge.

Though this isn’t the fanfiction that influenced the development of Replacement. This fic had barely enough reach to influence any future works years later. I couldn’t find any connection with this work and later works that officially did just have Jason call Tim “Replacement”

Fandom Opinion and Language at the time

I promise this is important and that I’m not a pretentious linguistic, English isn’t even my first language.

I like to think we all know how fandom discussion just seeps into fanfiction (See; the nickname green bean for Deku from MHA leaking into fanfiction) so I just want to quickly point this out.

Discussion around the two blew up after Jasons return in late 2005, people going “What does this mean” and “What does that mean for Tim”. Through the few posts I could dig up from this time and up to 2011, it seems people came to the conclusion that Tim was Jason’s replacement, and that their dynamic was Jason dealing with the fact that he had one. You can definitely see that in some of the posts and fanfiction written at the time that usually had Jason dealing with Tim being his replacement.

(Just a few examples from LiveJournal but more like this are still floating around, if they aren’t deleted anyway)

It’s very likely that the authors themselves engaged in similar discussions/had independent thoughts that ended in the same conclusions, seeping into the fanfiction itself later. In the comics pre-New 52 I couldn’t find any major instance of Jason explicitly referring to Tim as his replacement (only implied through speech), so this was mostly contained in fandom discussions from what I can tell. (Note, this was probably similar on comic discussion websites, but I couldn’t find any that still exist pre-2007, so I’m going to assume literacy skills are not any better on those sites. See; Batman dick riders)

The fact that Tim is explicitly described as having replaced Jason, and sometimes as “Being the Replacement” on posts/fanfiction definitely had a hand in the creation and popularisation of the nickname, influencing the fan content made around the two.

First usage of Replacement

Cain! Cain! Is the first use of the nickname Replacement really from a Batfam incest fanfiction?

Nope, thank God.

After filtering their character tags together on AO3, going to the oldest page and clicking through over 10 pages, reading every single fanfiction on each one (yes, even the weird ones, I was dedicated) I found the first instance where Jason explicitly refers to Tim as Replacement, that still exists today anyway.

Published on the 24th of January, 2009 by user shiny_glor_chan, is the fanfiction Four Calling Birds, a fanfiction detailing Stephenie Brown returning from faking her death (a whole headache from the comics that I can't be arsed to explain) and getting to meet Jason and Dick for the first time. Genuinely sweet, and a corner stone of fandom history, officially. Hip hip Hooray! Congratulations shiny_glor_chan.

I tried tracing to see if this person had any other accounts that I could find to see where they got the nickname from, but it seems it’s mostly a nickname they thought up out of the fact that they had consistently wrote Jason explicitly stating that Tim was his replacement

And reading through several more pages of fanfiction again, feeling like I want to bleach my eyes out, I found the second instance of the nickname being used. Published on the 26th of May, 2010 by user axiel-neesan, is the fanfiction The Only Piece You Get, where Jason basically acts as Tim’s cabbie and bonds with him. Another corner stone of fandom history, hooray.

These two authors are completely unrelated and have no connections to each other besides both frequenting LiveJournal, having taken prompts and having friends from that website, despite having no accounts I could find. I personally think they had a similar train of thought of “Huh, that would be a sick ass nickname.”. Chances are that axiel-neesan saw shiny_glor_chans fic and got inspired as the fandom was dead small on AO3 at the time – around 20 pages worth of fanfiction from 2008-2010 (And thats being generous if we’re counting now deleted ones)

These two fanfictions are immensely important because it’s the only early instances I could find of the nickname being used, and for about two years after the nickname pops up occasionally – but by no means was it popular, or even regularly used, I had to look for the fanfictions that used it.

Props to shiny_glor_chan and axiel-neesan! I pray that you two don’t see what the fandom thinks of that nickname now.

Popularisation

Early 2012 saw the proper explosion of fandom for the Batfam, and by extension the nickname.

By this point there were so many fanfictions that I couldn’t read them all, so I started picking random ones that tagged Jason and Tims relationship, platonic or not. Pre-April-ish of 2012 the nickname popped up every other page or so, but sometime after mid-2012 the nickname was in almost every fanfiction that I skimmed through – so that’s its official growth period.

Why though? Several factors probably.

The New-52 was in full swing by this time, DC massively promoting the reboot to get new fans interested, so people picked up comics from there. Young Justice – the more mainstream exposure of DC to surface level fans aired its second season in April of 2012, introducing people to Tim Drake and his story and getting them interested. Fanfiction and fandom as a whole was becoming less taboo and more accepted in fan spaces, so encouragement to write it was much better than it was in the early years of the internet (Example; Teen Wolf’s production team)

As for a specific catalyst for the growth of popularity for the nickname? There might be something worth pointing to.

Kudos for @ectonurites for helping me on this (Hi Sam! I was anon!) and giving me a publishing date on Tim’s and Jason’s first New 52 interaction – Red Hood and the Outlaws #8, published on the 18th of April, 2012. It features an instance of Jason and Tim interacting in a very friendly and familial way, Jason explicitly calling Bruce their Dad. Compared to their last major previous interaction of Jason leaving Tim for dead, fans of the two who enjoyed the more familial potential (and tragically, romantic potential) took it and ran with it.

All of these combined in some way to contribute to the popularity of the nickname in mid to late 2012, and lead to it’s infamy in DC fanfiction.

Conclusion

In conclusion, how do I think the nickname came to be?

I think it’s a combination of factors that led to it’s creation. As already established people very much did see Tim as Jasons replacement at the time, and the language could have shortened down from “Tim replaced Jason” to “Tim is Jason’s replacement” to “Tim is the replacement” which I think could be the train of thought the 2006 author went down to create the nickname Replacement Robin.

This definitely influenced the AO3 writers as shiny_glor_chan was present on LiveJournal at the time (where this language was very prominent), so they were already down the line of thinking this and probably went “Huh, replacement is kinda a funny nickname” and added it. As already stated, I think axiel-neesan probably had a very similar train of thought or may have seen shiny_glor_chan’s fic and was inspired.

And from there people saw it, used it in their own works, getting leaked over onto LiveJournal, which was the main website for prompt sharing, getting used a decent amount there before the explosion of fandom in mid-2012 that lead to it’s regular usage in fan works.

Questions

So, is the nickname from a Batcest fic?

Nope! The nickname mostly makes an appearance in platonic fics between Jason and Tim, it’s actually a chore to find it in their romantic ones, as in I think I found one instance of it being used somewhere in late 2010 but I can't think of it in a fanfiction that predates that. All early uses of the nickname were in platonic fics between the two.

I think this rumour is based around three fanfictions specifically on Ao3 that people are pointing to, I think, no one seems to be wanting to name names. They’re the ones that pop up when you search Replacement in the word search after tagging Tim Drake and Jason Todd together.

Wings to Fly. Published October of 2012. Jason Refers to Tim as Replacement. Jason/Tim

Replacement. Published 2009. The title implies it’s referring to Tim, but Jason never explicitly nicknames Tim replacement, the narrator only calling Tim “His replacement”, him being Jason. Jason/Tim. Non-con

The Replacement. Published 2011. Can't figure out if the title is supposed to refer to Tim or is simply just titled that for the sake of it. Jason talks a few times about Tim being his replacement, but the nickname never makes an appearance. Jason/Tim

Does the nickname have any bases in Canon?

From what I can tell, no. I haven’t read all the Batfamily comics Pre-New 52, or from after Batman: Under The Red Hood, I mostly stray towards Hal Jordans comics lol. I don’t think theres any major instance where Jason talks about Tim replacing him by specifically using replacement or replacing (It can be inferred from his speech sometimes, but Jason’s relationship with Tim was much more complex than that. I’d recommend reading @ectonurites metas about the two to get a better idea) Theres a few instances in 2015 post-New 52 reboot where Jason says explicitly that Tim replaced him, but that was way after the nickname was popularised.

Red Hood and Arsenal #7 (2015)

Final Notes

That’s about it! That’s the result of my month long dive into almost twenty years worth of DC fandom history as a fun side project. Please don’t harass anyone linked here, this was just project to pass the time and not a call out post for anyone that did contribute to the popularisation of the nickname.

Feel free to ask me anything else about this or any other DC fandom history and I’ll try to research it!! This was genuinely a fun thing to do to pass the time and work out my research muscles.

[oifaaa]

Actually originally Dick Grayson had been depicted as in his like 20s for a while before he became Nightwing, Nightwing wasn't meant to age Dick up, it was a reaction to the fact that he already had because other people wanted Robin to be a child.

Sorry should of made it clear I was talking about like most common canon since dcs always been screwy with ages I'm also pretty sure it's the current Canon that dick became Nightwing at about 18/19 and that he's been Nightwing for about 10 years

[thisiswhereikeepdcthings]

ok kinda a hot take but canon is a word that does not belong within 500 yards of comic books. continuity is screwy at best. every character is inconsistent. every adventure is batshit and about 80% of them contradict each other. so fuck canon. DC doesn't get to tell me that Dick Grayson spent a full year as Ric or that Jason doesn't use guns or anything like that. canon never made sense once in the history of comics and so i have killed it. canon is dead. long live fanon.

This is very true

[flybynightwing]

Well, with Babs, there's also the "Did she date Dick in high school?" retcon courtesy of Chuck Dixon, and even then he's inconsistent on that, also keeping her Ph.D. at times, and whether she was shot before or after Jason's death. The initial post-Zero Hour timeline has Dick knowing her for several months before NTT begins. Then the Cursed Annual starts mucking up Dick's time with the Titans, so basically everything from 1986 to 1993 was a few months. And finally the New 52.

Yup, that's all hugely confusing continuity stuff, but I'd call it fairly run of the mill, as confusing DC continuity stuff goes.

Like, is it weird that post-Crisis writers couldn't decide whether Congresswoman Gordon was still canon? Absolutely! But they also couldn't decide whether Dick had ever gone to college, or when Roy's addiction happened relative to anything else in his life, or like. Anything at ALL about the JSA.

Barbara's timeline definitely got weird, but the thing about reading broadly in DC with an eye toward continuity is that it doesn't take long to realize that literally every character has screwy continuity. Bruce Wayne is probably the least retconned character in all of DC, and they've still completely rewritten (and then immediately contradicted) major moments in his relationships with his kids and his friends.

[pop-culturereference]

Are there any comic what ifs you’ve thought about?

Oh, a ton. Most of them are like, what if the characterization made sense?? And canon is so screwy that it feels pointless for me to speculate on what-ifs. But does that stop me?? No. None for recent canon bc it is, unfortunately, irredeemable 😔

Spidey: i freaking love Renew Your Vows. It’s like, my ideal what if scenario. But even within it: what if peter kept up underground hero work on the side? What if MJ wasn’t able to save him and he died a horrible death and they publicized it on TV and everyone’s hope was completely crushed? (love me some angsty what ifs)

what if in that weird ‘Peter is turning into a bug’ storyline (The Other), Peter actually was sick? Just when he and MJ got back together, now they have to deal with this. Does it make them stronger or do they fall apart?

(Major ouch for this one) Slightly before that, when he and MJ split up and she goes to LA, she eventually starts to forgive him and watches spidey on the news when he fights. Her coworkers make fun of her. “Oh, MJ, spidey would never let you down like your garbage ex.” And then one day she’s watching as Peter dies and on TV he says his last words and they’re like, “I love you MJ” or something corny and painful like that

What if in one more day Peter made a different decision? How would he handle his identity being known and like villains coming to kill him (and also heroes bc this is civil war) at his home? He’d have to stay in hiding (And ALSO he’d still be with MJ 😭😭😭)

Batfamily: we know that Dick was like THIS close to asking Damian to come live with him. What if he did? What would Damian do? How would Bruce react (not well)? They’d become like shunned by Bruce but they’d make it on their own and it would be very heartwarming

One that I think about a lot: what if Babs found out about all that was really going on with the whole blockbuster and tarantula thing? It would have gone down a lot different. I even wrote a poorly-executed fic about it here.

What if Dinah and Babs actually did cause WW3 in early birds of prey? 😂😂

A big one is this fic which I WILL finish one day! (I swear!). Basically, Dick doesn’t get saved by Bruce and is stuck in juvie. A couple years later, who should end up at the same place but young tire thief, Jason todd

And my biggest one:

DC WHY DID YOU NEVER SHOW US DAMIAN’S GRIEF WHEN HE CAME BACK TO LIFE AND FOUND OUT DICK (THE PERSON HE DIED TO PROTECT) WAS DEAD* HUH? (*allegedly)

So like, Damian gets brought back to life, right? He comes back to the manor, and he’s hugged his father and everything but the person he really wants to see is Grayson. “Father, where’s Grayson?” Bruce refuses to tell him, in line with his characterization of the last like 10 years, so Damian takes it on himself to find out bc obviously something Bad™️ had happened or Dick would be there. He does some digging online and what does he find? The footage from the crime syndicate broadcast of them torturing Dick and revealing his identity. And. Coverage of his funeral. A new Dick Grayson memorial in Chicago. And then idk what would happen next but it would Hurt.

Sorry for the very long answer, anon, but what-if scenarios are my lifeblood

[biblio-bitch]

Titans (2018): Post S1 Thoughts pre-analysis

To add some variety my pre-written Detroit Evolution posts, have a slightly pre-written Titans post. This isn’t a liveblog simply because I already watched a whole season and I only wrote things down in a groupchat so once I rewatch I’ll write something out.

As usual, spoilers under the page break!

I need y’all to understand my love of the characterization. Seriously. Finally we have a show that understands the underlying rage in Dick Grayson and the general no-fucks-given attitude that surrounds Jason Todd.

Dick! Is! The! Angry! Robin!

Dick is the OG angry Robin y’all coming at Jason but he learned it from Dick “Moved cities and became a cop to avoid Bruce because he was pissed at him” Grayson

Dick “Started a fight with Hank Granger in front of the kid he just impulse kidnapped/adopted because they both have anger issues and won’t address them” Grayson

Jason “Likes classic literature and was only mad because he got killed and Bruce couldn’t be bothered to avenge him and was also affected by the Lazarus Pit” Todd isn’t angry he’s just grieving. (In case you haven’t seen the show and just give zero shits about spoilers, Titans Jason and Comics Jason have two different timelines as of S1, C!Jason died at about 15 and then the whole Red Hood thing happens, T!Jason is 19 and thriving so any mention of Jason’s death is entirely about the comics.)

Jason “I’m Robin and Robin gives me magic” Todd came from the streets and fought for his happiness and then was murdered he’s just the OG dead Robin

Dick “I’m a cop because I don’t want to be Robin and I’m estranged from Bruce except I’m still going into the streets because I’m angry” Grayson and Jason “I love being Robin and I idolize the original boy wonder except he doesn’t really like me and also I really hate cops for a really valid reason” Todd

Ok now that I’ve rambled about Jason and Dick, let’s talk about Rachel for a hot friggin second. I haven’t watched the original Teen Titans so don’t come for my ass about this. It’s on the watchlist I swear.

Rachel in this is a kid. Straight up a child. Raven in the original TT as far as I know is kinda an ancient demonic being who knows. everything. I really like the Rachel & Dick dynamic though. More of a mentor dynamic than the Teen Titans thing. I hope Dick is the Teen Titans Robin. There’s so many of them I just can’t tell. 

In any case, I like that we get to watch Rachel learn to use and be confident in her powers a little bit. It’s a nice character arc that I like seeing.

Starfire? What a queen. Koriand’r is such a cool character and I love seeing her played by a darker skinned black woman. Also her hair? Beautiful. I love that we see her go from this angry, mostly indifferent, slightly out of control woman who literally only wants to know who she is to a slightly less angry woman who wants to protect the kids she and Dick surprise adopted and began to build an identity away from who she was without completely giving up on finding out who that is. 

The Dick/Kori thing? Beautiful. I love that there’s a moment where they address that it’s not a great time for them to be in a relationship because Kori still wants to figure herself out and Dick has so many issues a therapist would cry. Not to mention that he was still clinging to the last bits of Robin. It’s a nice message I wish I had known because goddamn that would’ve been helpful. 

Garfield Logan is a wonderful being. He just wants to help, y’all. Seriously someone give him a hug he looks like a lost puppy. 10/10 would literally die for him. I will never forgive the show for 2x07 (which I skipped ahead to watch for fanfic purposes) where he has like two lines and they don’t show him caring about Jason at all even though the Gar I know would be by his side the whole time. He’d notice Jason’s absence before Mr. Dick “I’m hallucinating but won’t tell anyone because I blame myself for everything” Grayson, don’t try to bullshit me DC.

Donna Troy? I love her. I have no background comic knowledge of her but I am in love with her. She could break my spine and I wouldn’t care. Also? She calls Dick out on his bs. Good. He needs it.

Dawn and Hank. I have literally nothing about them. I think Hank is angry for good reason but I haven’t seen a lot of them interacting with the team so I’ll refrain from judgement until I have. But Dawn is played by Minka Kelly, aka North from DBH and she’s very pretty. That’s all I got for now, will revisit in S2′s analysis.

Also, honorable mention to the fact that out of the three adult women in the show, Dick has slept with at least two of them. Honestly I think that’s awesome but I wouldn’t ask for relationship advice from him because A) I’m ace and B) His relationships don’t seem to last very long beyond that. Maybe he should get therapy and come back when he’s mentally stable. 

Overall I give S1 a 9/10, I will never give anything DC makes a full ten simply because DC’s canon is so screwy. Seriously. I adore the show but this is a whole other DC canon I’m trying to keep straight. I haven’t even finished Red Hood and the Outlaws yet ok it’s not easy. 

[yoshimickster]

And now-A MEETING OF THE WEST DADDIES!

Ira: Why hello there, it appears you're me from an alternate universe!

Joe: I...guess so...kind of weird that you're white and I'm black but HEY that's the multiverse!

Ira: Indeed it is, SO are you an absent minded professor as well?

Joe: Nope, I'm an ace detective turned police commissioner.

Ira: Very good, very good...so...was it hard revealing Iris was from the future and adopted?

Joe:..wh...what?! N...no, my Iris isn't from the future, she was born in this timeline, and is my biological daughter!

Ira: Astounding, from this I can assume that your universe most likely realized how convoluted and confusing our daughter's original origin was, so it CHANGED itself to be more streamlined...also made you a detective and not a professor for some reason.

Joe: Yeah I'm not so much complaining about not being a professor as I'm a BAD ASS detective but I'm admittedly confused by the change.

Ira: Multiverse is screwy Joe, multiverse is screwy...WELL back to being canonically non-existant because DC forgot how good a character I was*POOF*.

Joe:...just gonna pretend that never happened.

[htub]

Meet Frey C. Fahlin!

My first DC OC

They were made at the VERY beginning of my hyperfixation era, with minimal context of any canon, but it ended up working so well. Originally, they were intended to be a self-insert, but then they got snagged by a rp I have with some friends and developed into an independent character.

Frey is a formerly-human now cat-human-hybrid living in Gotham who is... sort of a villain? They're really mostly neutral, but they hang out with whoever feeds them today. They're opportunistic, but considering their morals are pretty screwy, they're definitely more on the rogues side, though not actively opposed to any of the good guys.

The initial backstory idea was plain and simply a human that somehow got turned into a cat creature via genetic experimenting or whatever. Again, I had minimal context and I just like cats. Then I watched BTAS and turns out that one episode literally has a scientist who specializes in creating human-cat mutations so basically, I had a small existential crisis, then promptly decided to embrace this unexpected development and incorporate him.

Dr. Emile Dorian is now Frey's father, and he's the one who turned them into what they are. They managed to escape before he'd administered all doses of his gene-altering serum, but if they get one more dose their mind will be erased and go full feral mode, and they're not really okay with that.

There is a TON of info about Frey that I don't want to slap into one monstrous post, but more is definitely incoming so be warned lmao. They're my baby

[aion-rsa]

The Many Deaths of the Joker

https://ift.tt/2IxLjBw

There have been many stories to kill off the Clown Prince of Crime, but Batman's greatest enemy isn't so easy to get rid of for good.

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In fictional worlds where heroes and villains who can shrug off bullets like they were nothing, there exists “plot armor” for the more ordinary folks. Plot armor is the reason why the Punisher can mosey through a room with an uzi in each hand and somehow kill every single enemy while somehow never getting shot in any vital area. It’s why Stormtroopers have the worst aim and why the red-shirted Enterprise dudes have all the bad luck.

I’m having a hard time coming up with someone with stronger plot armor in comic books than the Joker. Hell, even Frank Castle died at least twice in continuity. The Joker should be dead a million times over, not just due to his injuries, but because with all the lives he’s taken, surely somebody would have murdered him by now. But again, not only does he take vicious beatings, if he isn’t apprehended at the end of a story, he usually falls off a cliff or is at the heart of an explosion or gets hit by a truck.

Then he’s back the next time, no worse for the wear.

While the comics won’t ever truly get rid of him, there are many continuities that have done away with Mr. J. Yet even then, the Joker is never really gone. He tends to haunt and taunt Batman in one way or another via his violent legacy. For someone with such an ill-defined identity, he sure is resilient.

So here's a look at all the times the Joker has died (or apparently died) in comics and on the screen.

Main Comics Continuity

Joker dying in main comics canon is an iffy subject. There have been times when he's been clinically dead, only to be brought back minutes later. Like the time Nightwing beat him within an inch of his life. He's even taken a couple of dips in the Lazarus Pit.

read more: Every DC Comics and Batman Easter Egg in the Joker Movie

But here, let's focus on Joker's second comics appearance. In Detective Comics #64, Joker decides to turn himself in and confess to every one of his crimes. The confused judge sentences him to death. Joker is put in the electric chair and acts like he's got stuff to do so wrap it up, B! Minutes after his death, his goons sneak in, find his body, and inject it with some special kind of serum that awakens the very recently deceased.

Joker pops back up and continues his life of crime. His reasoning? They can't charge him for the stuff he already did! That's double jeopardy!

Tim Burton's Batman

Jack Nicholson’s Joker completely ate it at the end of Tim Burton’s Batman. He fell from a great height while dragged down by a gargoyle. We saw the body. Dude was absolutely dead.

And he stayed that way! After that first movie, the most mention Joker got in that universe was a brief allusion in Batman Forever when Batman told Robin that revenge leads to emptiness.

We almost got a bit more of him, though! Before Batman and Robin ruined the concept of fun and killed that franchise, Joel Schumacher was originally going to do a fifth movie in that universe. Batman Triumphant would have revolved around Scarecrow and Harley Quinn as the new villains. Scarecrow means fear gas and that would have meant Batman getting a hallucination sequence.

What would Batman fear the most? Probably the skin-dyed dirtbag that killed his parents. And so, had the movie existed, we would have had a scene of Jack Nicholson's Joker confronting Batman during a psychological breakdown.

The movie would have been a dumpster fire, but...man, part of me is bummed we never got it.

Similarly, an unused Superman vs. Batman script from the early '00s would have included a plot point where Lex Luthor cloned the Joker to bring him back as part of a scheme to traumatize Bruce Wayne out of retirement and trick him into fighting Superman. Probably the most sensible reason to connect Lex and Joker.

Batman for the NES

Sunsoft made Batman: The Video Game for NES and the story was the general plot of the movie, only with lots and lots of ninjas and robots added because Batman needs something to fight. The ending is roughly the same, though Batman is a bit more cold-blooded. He beats the Joker down, tells him, “You killed my parents,” and then tosses him to his doom. We see Joker’s lifeless corpse and roll credits.

read more: Joker Movie Review

Then a year later, they released Batman: Return of the Joker. The Joker returns with some scheme involving stealing explosive metals and...he’s back. He’s alive again. Somehow. Neither the game nor the manual have any explanation. Just go with it.

Upon further review, both the Genesis and arcade adaptations of the movie make it vague whether or not falling from the top of a cathedral is enough to take out the Joker, so maybe Jack Nicholson's Joker is more resilient than anyone ever realized.

The Dark Knight Strikes Again

Dark Knight Returns features one of the most chilling incarnations of the Joker, who comes out of a catatonic state the moment he finds out Batman is back on the streets. Joker’s killing spree goes farther than the 1980s comic-reading public was used to and Batman ALMOST has it in him to kill the Joker for good. Since killing Joker is neither a horseshoe nor a hand grenade, Joker finishes the job by snapping his own neck and making it look like Batman’s finally gone over the line, thereby making him a prime target of the authorities.

Enduring one massive beating and a fake death (which people regard as “totally beat Superman in a fight” for some reason) later, Batman is fine.

Many years later, Frank Miller made his sequel Dark Knight Strikes Again, otherwise known as, “that mess.” In a story that focuses on Lex Luthor and Brainiac while including lots of DC heroes and Hal Jordan’s dinosaur space penis, the Joker appears a couple of times as a looming threat. He kills the Creeper, Guardian, and even Martian Manhunter while bringing up the mystery of who he could possibly be.

read more: The Secrets of the Joker Movie

Joker II shows up at the end of the comic as a kind of final boss showdown. He is, in fact, Dick Grayson, whose only mention in the original story was not being on speaking terms with Bruce. As the story goes, Batman fired him for being an incompetent whiner once upon a time and rather than celebrate being free of the lunatic that is Miller Batman, Dick instead went a bit mad and allowed Luthor and Brainiac to give him shape-shifting/quick-healing powers.

Even though he’s capable of surviving decapitations and the like, Joker II is eventually done in by getting knocked into some lava. Can’t heal if there’s nothing left of you.

Justice League: The Nail

Back in the late-90s, Alan Davis and Mark Farmer put together a three-issue Elseworlds story called The Nail. This “what if” tale shows how the DC Universe would have formed had Superman’s rocket not been discovered by the Kents. Without Superman as a symbol, metahumans aren’t exactly looked upon with love and astonishment. It’s more of an X-Men deal where the public’s mood is, “Thanks for saving the world...I guess.”

As part of the comic’s big villain conspiracy (and I won’t spoil who’s behind everything), the Joker is armed with a pair of gauntlets made from Kryptonian tech. They make him virtually unstoppable and he proceeds to liberate Arkham Asylum and then make the Bat-villains fight each other to the death for his amusement. Batman, Robin, and Batgirl appear and Alan Davis finally answers the question, “What would it take for Batman to murder the Joker?”

The answer: have the Joker use his telekinetic gauntlets to slowly and painfully tear Robin and Batgirl to pieces while forcing Batman to watch. Jesus. Yeah. That’ll do it.

With some assistance from Catwoman, Batman’s able to free himself, damage the gauntlets and snap Joker’s neck. While the public display and selective context makes the Justice League look bad, nobody takes the incident harder than Batman himself. Both the graphic deaths of his sidekicks and the realization that he murdered a man sends him to the brink of sanity. It’s the comfort of Catwoman, who becomes Batwoman, that keeps him from falling apart.

read more: The Actors Who Have Played the Joker

Regardless, once the story is over, Batman gives himself up to the police. He’s acquitted of murder charges, but chooses to leave the Justice League.

Several years later, we get Another Nail, which basically exists to give upbeat closure to a story that had a bunch of downers. Batman continues to fight crime in Gotham, but he starts hearing the Joker’s laughter. Due to the convoluted plot of the miniseries, things are screwy with the afterlife and the Joker is able to escape Hell.

Threatening to kill Batwoman, Joker – who has Carnage-like powers – fights Batman. Batman attempts to sacrifice himself by tackling Joker back to Hell, but the spririts of Robin and Batgirl rescue him. Batman finally decides to get on with his life and rejoin the Justice League.

Kingdom Come

The Joker’s death in Kingdom Come is a major turning point for society. After Joker murders Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, and a lot of other people at the Daily Planet, he’s apprehended by the police. We’ll never know how Superman would have instinctively dealt with his loss since new superhero hotness and Cable pastiche Magog stops by to vaporize the handcuffed Joker.

Magog is put on trial, everyone and their mother is pretty okay with the Joker being murdered in any way, and Superman leaves in a huff. This causes a new dawn of “superheroism” where it’s less about heroism and more about people in cool costumes getting into fights with no care for anything but themselves. You know, kind of like a Zack Snyder movie.

While the Joker doesn’t come back from the dead, he does inspire one troublemaker to become the new Joker’s Daughter (otherwise known as Harlequin). Although we never get much on her, as she’s mostly a recurring background character, she represents the chaotic world where the mighty can do what they want while the weak are left deal with the consequences.

read more: How Joaquin Phoenix Became the Joker

It does remind me that one of the most clever moments in the whole comic is when Batman betrays Lex Luthor and admits to only joining up with him in the first place in order to see what Shazam’s deal was. As he puts it, Shazam is a wild card and if there’s anything Batman hates, it’s a wild card.

Love that.

Batman Beyond

Batman: The Animated Series is arguably better than sliced bread and its dark future Batman Beyond wasn’t bad either. Despite taking place years in the future, the writers were stingy on the details of what became of a lot of the old guard. While we got to see what became of Mr. Freeze and Bane, bigger deal characters like Robin and Joker were glazed over.

At most, during the show’s run, we saw that the Joker was replaced with an ever-changing circus-themed gang called the Jokerz. That was cool and all and fits into the nature of this list, but Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker went even further.

read more: The Best Episodes of Batman Beyond

In the dying days of the Animated Series era, the Joker kidnapped and tortured Tim Drake Robin. He warped the poor boy, made him squeal about Batman’s secret identity, and then transformed him into a giggling child version of the Joker. Depending on which version you watch, Tim would get his revenge by either shooting Joker in the chest or electrocuting him to death.

In the Beyond era, the Joker appears yet again, making the futuristic Batman Terry McGuiness question the many ways that’s possible. In the end, the Joker turns out to be Tim Drake, unknowingly taken over by a secret implant that transforms him into having the Joker’s DNA and personality. Terry is able to put an end to this Joker by frying the implant with an electric joy buzzer.

Batman: Digital Justice

Speaking of the future, there’s this Elseworlds taking place towards the end of the 21st century. While the Joker presumably died of old age, considering Batman retired, he lives on in the form of a sentient computer virus and...

For God's sake, look at that thing. Actually, better idea, let’s not. Just...next entry.

Batman: Red Rain

Throughout the '90s, Doug Moench and Kelley Jones did a trilogy of Elseworlds stories based on the very simple high concept of Batman being a literal "bat man." In the story Red Rain, Batman gets bitten by a vampire and fights Dracula. It’s pretty rad. Batman wins and Dracula’s dead for good.

A couple of years later, they did a sequel called Bloodstorm, which is based on the very human Joker leading Dracula’s horde for the sake of taking over the criminal underworld. Vampire Batman teams up with Selina Kyle, who also goes literal by being a werecat. Selena’s love is the only thing keeping Batman from going all-you-can-eat-buffet, so once Joker kills her with a crossbow, Batman has nothing left to keep him in check. Although part of him tries to fight it, he still powers through multiple crosses and holy water to snap Joker’s neck and feed on his blood.

Being that Batman is the smartest dude, he knows to shove a stake through Joker’s heart just in case...because Vampire Joker is the last thing we need.

It’s moot, since not only has Batman killed his rival, but he’s given into his vampire instincts. He has his buds Alfred and Commissioner Gordon stake him to prevent any further benders.

read more: Creating a New Joker Origin Story

Those two, unfortunately, never got around to removing his head, so despite being rendered immobile, Batman is still kicking. A few months later, Alfred removes the stake because Alfred is dumb as hell in this world. Not only does Batman have a taste for blood while being driven insane from months of his body rotting, but it’s implied a few times that ingesting Joker’s specific blood makes him even more out-of-control.

Yeah, things do NOT end well for any named character in that final chapter.

Batman 666

During Grant Morrison’s lengthy run on Batman’s comics, he wrote a one-off story in Batman #666 that depicts Damian Wayne as a more ruthless Batman in the future who may or may not have sold his soul to the actual devil. There are two alternate follow-ups to this story. One of which has Damian adopt and raise Terry McGinnis, leading to a take on the Batman Beyond era.

Then there’s a path where everything goes wrong. The Joker has died and while we don’t know the details, we do know that the madman had his own failsafe. In his death, he releases a virus that transforms its victims into Joker-like monsters, like a clown version of 28 Days Later.

Damian Batman finds a baby who appears to be immune to the virus, but his attempts to use the child to create a cure leads to disaster when he discovers that the baby is merely a carrier. Overwhelmed by infected clown people, Damian watches in horror as Gotham is nuked to contain the outbreak.

I think I like the first future better.

The Arkham Games

In the Rocksteady Arkham trilogy, Joker suffers from injecting himself with Titan, an upgraded version of the Venom drug that gives Bane his strength. In the aftermath, he’s dying, so he figures he’ll inject his own poisoned blood into Batman’s veins to push Batman into finding a cure. I’m guessing Joker saw that episode of South Park where Cartman had AIDS and had a moment of inspiration.

Though Batman cures himself, Joker shivs him. Either because he thinks Batman’s going to leave him to die or because shivving seemed like a good idea at the moment. That makes Batman drop the antidote and Joker succumbs to illness and dies, laughing at Batman’s claim that he was totally about to give him the antidote after all.

Then in Arkham Knight, we discover that having Joker blood in your system plus breathing in Scarecrow’s fear toxin transforms you into superhero Fight Club. Joker appears in visions while Batman (and some other soon-to-be-dead saps who also have Joker blood) gradually becomes Joker-like in behavior and appearance.

Batman ultimately wins out by turning the two infections against each other and confronting Joker with his own fear: being dead and forgotten. Batman goes back to normal and gets back to his mission of handing Scarecrow a knuckle sandwich.

Gotham

Batman prequel Gotham features Jerome Valeska, as played by Cameron Monaghan. Jerome is what I’d call the How I Met Your Mother of Jokers. He’s the Joker, but not really. The narrative plays up that he's either the actual Joker, he'll somehow create the Joker, or he's just thematically the Joker.

For all intents and purposes, he’s the Joker. Until he isn't. And then it's revealed that actually his twin brother is the Joker. Don't ask. Gotham is bonkers.

The charismatic psychopath and showman is killed off early in the second season during an attempt on the life of the adolescent Bruce Wayne. He gets stabbed in the neck by Theo Galavan in an act of betrayal, but dies with blood covering his lips as he smiles. Various people watch footage of Jerome on TV and go into giggling fits, including two guys who laughingly murder a homeless person, then turn on each other.

read more: Joker Movie Ending Explained

With that not being enough for viewers, they then go and bring Jerome back to life via televised comic book science. He eventually dies for reals by falling off a building while cackling, but sends his brother Jeremiah a jack-in-the-box booby trap that infects him with a venom that turns his skin white, hair green, and makes him gradually go crazy. Sure enough, Jeremiah goes on to commit crimes as "Mr. J."

Coincidentally, Jerome’s father, a fortune teller, claimed that Jerome would leave behind a legacy of death and madness. Sounds about right.

Injustice: Gods Among Us

The Injustice: Gods Among Us storyline is the aftermath of the Joker growing bored of messing with Batman and moving on to Superman. Using some kryptonite-laced fear gas, Joker gets Superman to hallucinate that a pregnant Lois Lane is Doomsday. Lois’ heart is linked to a detonator that nukes Metropolis upon her thrown-into-space death.

This especially puts Superman in a bad mood to the point that he appears before the captured Joker and impales him with his fist. Over the next five years, Superman doubles down on his decision and ultimately transforms into a frustrated dictator.

read more - The Many Deaths of Injustice: Gods Among Us

Over the years, as Superman’s hold on the world becomes more frightening, Jason Bard starts up a protest group invoking the Joker’s image. Superman doesn’t take this well and fries a whole lot of them in a fit of anger. Even then, the Joker Clan grows to become an anarchist underground counter to Superman’s regime. Even though Harley Quinn has grown to despise the Joker and what he stood for, she chooses to become the leader.

Then a handful of superheroes from the regular DC Universe are brought in via portal. Inadvertently, Joker is one of them. He quickly takes over the Joker Clan and wins over the heart of Harley, undoing years of personal progress on her part. Eventually, that world’s Lex Luthor helps Harley break the spell and she not only beats the shit out of that Joker until he begs his world’s Batman to take him home, but her more loyal Joker Clan members rebranded themselves as the Harley Horde.

Injustice 2 has Joker as a playable character and the various intro dialogues come up with different options of what his deal might be. In terms of the game's canon story, he's nothing more than a fear illusion that Harley has to fight through.

The Batman Who Laughs

Then there's the most literal take on a Joker death that affects Batman. In this world, after Joker infects some kids with a Joker virus, Batman seems to have enough and snaps his neck. Then again, Batman insists that Joker died due to the chemicals in his system finally catching up with him.

read more: The Inside Story of The Batman Who Laughs

It's discovered that the Joker has a chemical curse that comes with his death. An airborne virus that infects whoever is nearest to him when he dies. That means that Batman transforms into a white-skinned, cackling maniac. Known as The Batman Who Laughs, he kills his allies, turns Damian into a Joker Jr., and goes on a worldwide killing spree that eventually sets its sights on the main DC Universe. As it turns out, the only way to defeat a Batman/Joker hybrid is to have Batman and the Joker work together.

Gavin Jasper writes for Den of Geek and appreciates that Flashpoint Batman killed the Joker a couple hours before the world exploded. That’ll get you the last laugh. Read more of his articles here and follow him on Twitter @Gavin4L

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Gavin Jasper

Oct 7, 2019

Joker

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from Books https://ift.tt/2VlyBe5

[sisterkillcr-blog]

was that BLAKE LIVELY? oh no no, that was just EMILY NELSON, a CANON CHARACTER from A SIMPLE FAVOR. they are 31 years old and ARE aware that they are not actually from washington dc. too bad they can’t stray from this city for long.

i told myself i was only gonna stick with one muse and then i wanted to watch a simple favor again and now here we are.

for those who haven’t seen the movie, be warned there will be spoilers ahead!! read on at  your own risk or whatever

how long has your character been here? less than a week.

what is your character’s job? currently unemployed. she’s in hiding, basically.

where has your character been pulled from in their fandom? post-movie

has any magic affected your character? no.

and any other information?

born hope mclanden, she’s the last remaining sister from a set of triplets. (one died in the womb and she killed the other) 

her life was... pretty screwy. over controlling father and a mother who claimed they needed an exorcist. it wasn’t a very loving home. so she wasn’t off to the best start.

her abusive fathers tendencies eventually lead to her and her sister faith burning part of their house down, killing their father in the process.

after the fire, she and her sister split up and went on the run. she moved between places, changing her name with every move before settling down in new york as emily nelson where she got a job working for a big fashion designer named dennis nylon.

she met her (ex)husband and had a son named nicky whomst she loves more than anything and would literally die for even if she’s not the greatest mother in the world.

one day she asked her best friend for a simple favor in picking nicky up from school basically so she could just. fake her death for insurance money. 

so eventually it comes out that it was all for insurance fraud etc and her ex and best friend try exposing her to the cops etc and she attempts to kill them both but that fails and she ends up in jail for murder and fraud or whatever

so!!! now she’s here and not quite sure how but it’s not jail and although she doesn’t get to see nicky, she’ll take her freedom while she can get it.

this was probably a lot more than you needed to know but i just. also kinda needed to rerun through it all because lordy what a movie.

also fun facts: wears a lot of suits. basically only wears cologne. makes a mean dry gin martini. PLS DON’T TAKE HER PHOTO.

so!! if you wanna do anything w my pathological lying con artist, hmu!!