#considering alicent is said to have died in kl

[sedat3dmaiden]

i do not think nor am i hoping that sunfyre is actually dead but if that is the case then the implication of the climax of the dance in him eating rhaenyra not actually being real opens so many doors considering alicent’s “come with me” WAHHHHHH

[thesunfyre4446]

As for punishing Alicent, Aemond and Criston - I will give my TB perspective if I may :)

I support the idea that Alicent should be punished. Just like Luke should. It's more about "how to punish one person for hurting the king's child without punish another person for hurting the king's child." Aemond was kid, but Rhaenyra was heir to the trone. Luke should be punished (NOT by having his eye gouged out), but Alicent can't go unpunished. He took Aemond's eye, she attacked Rhaenyra and wounded her with valyrian steel to the bone. They both should be punished.

Criston should face the same consequences as all the rest of the guards who guarded the royal family in Driftmark. No one checked that Aemond (the prince) did not reach the bed at all. He disappeared in the evening and didn't come back, and no one noticed. What if he fell off a cliff? If Vhagar rejected him? They would find his body or ashes and… what? The two heirs and two granddaughters of the Lord of Driftmark/the king's nieces left the castle unnoticed in the middle of the night to fight "someone who is stealing Vhagar". They didn't know it was Aemond. They could have died. They would find their bodies or they wouldn't and... what?

As for Aemond. In my opinion he knew what he was doing was wrong, that's why he ran away to do it in the middle of the night. He should have known that he shouldn't run away in the night LIKE he was stealing dragon, and go and bond with it properly, under proper supervision, like every other Targaryen had done before him. He should have known that he couldn't use the dragon as a death threat against his younger cousins who lost their mother to the dragon. I know he didn't know them. But he should understand how empathy works and that he's a child who shouldn't be threatening to use a dragon as a weapon. Every child, not just Luke, should understand that escalating violence (physically or verbally, as Aemond did) is wrong.

This is my opinion and one that I know I share with other TBs I know. Some people have… weird ideas, but it works both ways. Some TBs say Aemond should be sent to the Wall, and some TGs say Luke should be completely disinherited, mutilated and his dragon killed. Both attitudes are wrong.

thank you for your input!

i will say that rhaenyra offering to have aemond "sharply questioned" & taunting alicent with that "thank you, father" line & alicent just being very upset and distraught over her son losing his eye is what prompted her to finally lose it and attack rhaenyra. it's not something she was proud of & regretted it the next morning (i really wish that from that moment on the show would make alicent more like her book counterpart... but she was obvs regretting snapping out lol)

technically yeah she attack rhaenyra with a knife, but this fandom's unwillingness to sympathies and recognize alicent's pain is very upsetting to me. i'm seeing a lot of posts like "alicent should've been killed & locked up & whipped" and i'm like... are you fr? this woman is clearly upset and hurt over her son's injury. even rhaenyra and viserys or even daemon never tried to get alicent punished.

wrt to aemond - according to f&b he was sneaking out because he knew his parents would never allow him near vhagar. like i've said, he was supposed to return to KL very soon, and vhagar couldn't come with them to the dragonpit because she's too big. would she just disappear like she had when baelon died? would she go to dragonstone - that's very possible. but he couldn't go to dragonstone since his mom and rhaenyra are beefing.

and considering aemond's character. it was something he wanted to do on his own. he wanted to prove himself. & was 10 and didn't really think through the whole thing. we really don't know much about how targs claim dragons. there aren't any rules. you can just try to mount them and hope for the best lol i think that a dragon also chooses the rider based on personality. vhagar and aemond bonded over feeling lonely . that and aemond's bravery is exactly why vhagar accepted him. and wrt to empathy, listen, not going to justify what he said to the girls, but kids can be really really mean lol aemond's not shown to be very empathic in general & especially not to 2 strangers standing together with his bullies.

anyway, yeah, physical punishments are always bad. especially to kids???? i blame mostly viserys for not showing his son & alicent that he cared about them & just handling the whole situation very badly. in f&b he banishes harwin to harrenhall & sends rhaenyra to dragonstone & makes that threat that he'll cut the togues of anyone who speaks against rhaenyra's family. that makes so much more sense then show version.

[horizon-verizon]

Also like wouldn’t Fire & Blood being a biased history book MEAN that Alicent was even worse than what she was written as since it was written from the viewpoint of the maesters who literally live in Oldtown ? They were in line with the Hightowers so isn’t it safe to assume she was probably even worse than the maesters portrayed her ??

Also the maesters had WAY more reasons to be biased against Rhaenyra than Alicent. Rhaenyra is the one who defied tradition and subverted gender structures, trying to gain “male” power and be KING, a position that was previously occupied by men, while Alicent appeal to the inherently patriarchal social structure they are situated in. Alicent “operates behind the scenes” and rather than trying to appropriate a male-sphere, she manipulates her way within it and through such, is able to find agency without disrupting social order.

It could be, and some would argue it is likely that she was worse. Some details, like the laughing at Tumbleton thing, just feels exaggerated to me, but then you could consider how the bc Alicent is often juxtaposed to Rhaenyra as the "better" woman and they still put in that she may have laughed at a whole town raped solely bc it sets Rhaenyra back, you kinda feel that....perhaps she did do this thing? Wouldn't be very smart, but she is also the woman who said "bastard blood shed in war" even as she is the one who could've secured KL against the blacks if it weren't for dragons and helped the greens get a necessary headstart after Viserys died.

idk, if I were creating an adaptation, I would not make it so that Alicent is like HotDAlicent but does start out not so...ham? I already wrote how I would rewrite her at least 2x.

[the-daily-dreamer]

Hi, I found your blog recently and I agree with a lot of what you say. I was team black initially but I’ve been leaning more towards the greens now because they have better and more interesting characters at the moment. I wanted to say that, although I like Rhaenyra, I think her decision to leave for Dragonstone was… stupid.

Like, I know she did it because people were calling the boys bastards but there were other things she could have done. Because like, when she left, Viserys health was already not the greatest and everyone could see that, so when he eventually couldn’t perform his duties as king, if she stayed, that would have been the perfect opportunity to rule in his stead. She would be learning how to ACTUALLY rule, gain more allies, and when Viserys eventually died, I think the servants would have warmed her ASAP.

If she was an active figure at court, doing all the ruling, I doubt most of the lords would have bent the knee to Aegon like they did in episode 9. Also, she should have sent the boys to be wards to other lords. Send Jace to lord Baratheon, so that when you need, you have him on your side, and Luke to in Driftmark, because you so desperately want him to be Lord of the Tides than damn, he should be knowing how to do stuff with the navy and all. I think ultimately, her leaving for Dragonstone is what made so easy for team Green to get the throne so easily, considering they were the ones actually ruling for the past years.

Hindsight is a gift, but if you want to rule a realm, you should at least consider all the possibilities of every single thing you do. And with the way Rhaenyra was raised, I’m not impressed that she wasn’t able to think so far ahead.

Like my dad tells me when im driving, you have to look out for yourself but also pay attention and think ahead, so you avoid accidents. Also sorry for the long ask and for any mistakes, English is not my first language

Hard agree!!

While I may have my own personal qualms with Rhaenyra and who she is as a person, her number one flaw is her complete and total political incompetence.

She had the perfect opportunity to begin leading and ensuring her claim was safe. Instead she left her home and basically handed the throne to team green.

As you said, she should’ve stayed in KL and ruled as her father got ill. Instead she left and let Otto and Alicent run the show. Obviously people will defect towards the Greens. They’ve been the ones ruling for years. Rhaenyra was absolutely foolish to assume people would support her on the basis that she’s special when she has done absolutely nothing to secure her claim or rule her people.

[astradrifting]

While Tyland seems to mirror Tyrion, the latter has already experienced all that in the book, hasn't he? Serving the wrong regime, being hated by the people, being badly disfigured etc. But now he's bringing an enemy with dragons to Westeros. Isn't that far beyond Tyland? I keep thinking the Lannister in the service of a rotten regime and for the wrong reasons (Cersei) might be Jamie. He too is disfigured. Is there a parallel for him in DoD?

(referencing this post)

Well, Tyland was sent across the Narrow Sea to Pentos to get sellswords for the Greens but failed, so maybe Tyrion bringing Dany across is meant to be him succeeding where Tyland failed. But you’re right, the foreshadowing events have already happened for Tyrion and it seems repetitive for his story to progress in exactly that way again. The show seemed to indicate that this was his endgame, but I could see D&D giving him this ‘happy ending’ purely because he’s their favourite, maybe swapping his ending with another character’s to facilitate it. The removal of the Tysha reveal so completely stagnated Tyrion’s character arc, which might be why D&D seemed to have no idea what to do with him post s4 aside from get him sucked into the Dany-cult.

There’s definitely meant to be a link between Ser Criston Cole and Jaime, though more of a mirror reflection than parallels. Cole was known as the Kingmaker, for his crucial role in playing Aegon II and Rhaenyra against each other at the start of the Dance, and was later made Aegon’s Hand. He was once Rhaenyra’s loyal sworn sword, until one of them spurned the other before her wedding to Laenor Velaryon. Either he asked her to run away with him to the Free Cities and she rejected him, or she tried to seduce him (for a second time) in the White Sword Tower and he rejected her. Either way, they clearly had a falling out, after which Rhaenyra turned to Ser Harwin Strong and Cole became a supporter of the Greens and Queen Alicent’s new sworn sword. This is similar to Jaime turning away from Cersei for her infidelity, though he doesn’t go so far as supporting the younger brother that will kill her and keeping her from the throne just yet.

Cole’s death is clearly a reference to the Red Wedding - at the Red Wedding, Robb was hit by three crossbow bolts, before Roose Bolton killed him while saying “Jaime Lannister sends his regards.” Criston Cole died at the Butcher’s Ball, a battle in the riverlands near the God’s Eye, killed by three arrows. The man in charge of the archers, and one of the men who killed him, was called Red Robb Rivers. His head was later put upon a spear and marched to another battle. But considering this is already a reversal of Robb’s exact fate in the books, I don’t know if Cole’s death is meant to provide foreshadowing for Jaime’s ending. He seems to be more of Jaime’s foil than a true parallel - Cole appeared to truly hate Rhaenyra in the end and worked to destroy everything she had, but I think Jaime is going to find it harder to give up on Cersei no matter what he says.

Some of Tyland and Tyrion’s parallels could actually apply to Jaime too, in some ways mapping closer to Jaime:

- Tyland was the younger twin of Lord Jason Lannister, as Jaime is Cersei’s younger twin.

- both were tortured and disfigured by the opposite side in war.

- Tyland’s policies benefitted lords, but made him hated by the smallfolk - similarly, Jaime’s slaying of Aerys actually benefitted the nobility, since it was they that Aerys tended to target, but has made him reviled by the smallfolk as the Kingslayer.

- Tyland advised Aegon II to kill his nephew Aegon the Younger instead of just gelding him or sending him to the Wall, because he would always be a threat to his reign. Tyrion has never threatened Bran (yet, at least), but Jaime has already tried to kill him, and later said that he should be killed, ostensibly for mercy but really because Bran was a threat to his and Cersei’s secret.

I’m still more inclined to think that Jaime and Cersei’s endings are linked in some way. But there’s also a lot of possible foreshadowing for Jaime being Hand within the books - @fedonciadale wrote a meta about Jaime possibly becoming Hand before s8. He also spends much of Feast riding around the Riverlands trying to clean up the war, during which he dreams of becoming known as Goldenhand the Just, instead of the Kingslayer. Of course, right now it’s incomprehensible why exactly either Bran or his council of regents would choose to make Jaime his Hand, aside from possibly appeasing supporters of the old Lannister regime, but Tyrion becoming Hand is pretty baffling too. I’d think that either of them would be especially insulting to both Sansa personally and the Martells, but if both the North and Dorne go independent at the end they probably wouldn’t have a say in who becomes Hand in the remaining kingdoms.

I don’t know why it would happen politically, but I could see why it might happen thematically. It might be a bitter, full circle of sorts for Jaime to end up loyally serving a king he’s already wronged.

In Jaime’s last AFFC chapter, he makes plans to eventually return to KL, but not for Cersei. He intends to separate Cersei from Tommen and find him a new small council, considering a slew of lords who could become the new Hand (even Baelish, bizarrely enough), but conspiciously not including himself, even though he’s already planning political manouevres and there have been previous Lord Commanders of the Kingsguard who have served as the Hand e.g. Ser Ryam Redwyne, and Ser Criston Cole during the Dance. He even wants to tell Tommen that he’s his father.

And he had done his own part here at Riverrun without actually ever taking up arms against the Starks or Tullys. Once he found the Blackfish, he would be free to return to King's Landing, where he belonged. My place is with my king. With my son. Would Tommen want to know that? The truth could cost the boy his throne. Would you sooner have a father or a chair, lad? Jaime wished he knew the answer. 

(AFFC, Jaime VII)

He seems to want a second chance, with Tommen after years of not truly acknowledging him as his son, and as a knight of the Kingsguard. The last king he truly served, he ended up stabbing in front of the Iron Throne. Robert barely even counts, because Jaime never had any real loyalty to him. Now he has grand plans to guide Tommen as king that will ultimately be disrupted, first by Lady Stoneheart, then likely by Aegon coming out of the woodwork and taking the crown from either Cersei or Tommen. If Jaime survives to the end of the series, he might end up serving a final king.

Bran and Tommen have often been linked to each other and contrasted throughout the series. They’re the same age, both second sons, and Sansa thinks explicitly that Tommen reminds her of Bran in ACOK. At the very beginning of AGOT, they have a sparring match, in which Bran knocks Tommen down:

There was a shout from the courtyard below. Prince Tommen was rolling in the dust, trying to get up and failing. All the padding made him look like a turtle on its back. Bran was standing over him with upraised wooden sword, ready to whack him again once he regained his feet.

(AGOT, Arya I)

There’s a more oblique link made when the Lannisters are discussing Bran’s fall:

“[...] There is nothing Lord Eddard can do for the boy in any case."

"He could end his torment," Jaime said. "I would, if it were my son. It would be a mercy."

"I advise against putting that suggestion to Lord Eddard, sweet brother," Tyrion said. "He would not take it kindly."

(AGOT, Tyrion I)

In AFFC/ADWD, Jon bitterly remembers the spar between Bran and Tommen:

"At Winterfell, Tommen fought my brother Bran with wooden swords," Jon said, remembering. "He wore so much padding he looked like a stuffed goose. Bran knocked him to the ground." He went to the window and threw the shutters open. The air outside was cold and bracing, though the sky was a dull grey. "Yet Bran's dead, and pudgy pink-faced Tommen is sitting on the Iron Throne, with a crown nestled amongst his golden curls."

(ADWD, Jon II)

Except Bran isn’t dead, and it’s Tommen’s prospects that aren’t looking good. By the end of the series, their positions will likely have reversed entirely from Jon’s statement - Bran will be the boy with a crown in his curly hair, while Tommen might be the one tragically killed in his home.

There would be something bitter and darkly ironic in it, if the boy-king Jaime gets a second chance with isn’t the son he desperately wants to know, but the boy he threw out of a window.