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bambi-kinos · 2 years ago

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excerpts from the McLennon server (hamburg part 2)

Thank you everyone for your patience. This is Part Two of the ongoing Hamburg Conversation from the McLennon server. Part One is here: https://www.tumblr.com/bambi-kinos/718114537612656640/excerpts-from-the-mclennon-server

In Part Two of the Hamburg Conversation we discussed the 1960 trip from Paul’s POV and why he abandoned the Beatles to get a job as a coil winder. This goes into Stuart and Klaus and the Exis, plus how Paul reacted to John’s mind games where he pitted his loved ones against each other. Much has been made of John in Hamburg and how it connected to his later patterns but very little discussion of Paul comparatively.

This conversation was much messier as it spanned several days. We used Discord’s “reply” feature liberally. Sometimes you will see disparate time stamps; this is because I decided to pair the replies with the original comments they were replying to for the sake of readability. Please let me know if there are any confusing points where this doesn’t work and I’ll do my best to clarify the conversation.

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Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/07/2023 11:02 PM I am back on my bullshit about Hamburg again. this period is just super fascinating to me because of all the possibilities and the way things happened the way they did

I also want to understand why Paul chose John when the first Hamburg trip really sucked in a lot of ways and it could easily have ended with them going off to do something else.

in the beginning John helped Stuart bully Paul and he ostracized Paul from the group via the Exis (apparently deliberately? I go back and forth on this all the time, because I wouldn't put it past John to do it on purpose... but then again his MO was to get enamored with something new only to eventually drop it and snuggle up to Paul again so John probably didn't see it that way?) But once all of that was over and they were back in Liverpool, John tracked down Paul and he had to do a lot of shitwork to get back into Paul's good graces again.

Paul found a job at his dad's behest but I don't think he would have continued with the Beatles if John hadn't come to fetch him. John did something really smart when he came to fetch Paul from the yard where Paul was working: he brought George. First he had to tell George "yeah I'm back" but then he brought George with him to ask Paul to come back. Smart. Strength in numbers. Shows that he's serious and it doesn't look like he's begging because he brought another band member with him.

but Paul didn't leave that job immediately. It took months for Paul to fully come back to the Beatles. John eventually had to give him an ultimatum. I think after the experience of Stuart and the Exis and the group bullying, I think that those months were John working his way back into Paul's good graces again. And eventually Paul forced John to prove that he still wanted Paul, in a way. Earlier when we talked about this Betty made a really good point that Paul was the one fighting for the music, like John was. Stuart met Astrid and John let him go because he knew Stuart was already choosing Astrid over him so it was better not to fight it. But that period after John came back... that's fascinating. John recuperated for a while by not telling anyone he had come back. Paul got a job (and it sounds like he didn't need a lot of pushing) and I think it was because he might have been preparing to leave the Beatles thing behind completely.

Like I think Paul came back to Liverpool thinking that he and John were not friends anymore. IMO Paul carried the memory of the experience with the Exis around and that he remained distant from them forever.

Funnily enough, Paul has turned out the real black sheep of the whole trip. Everybody hates him and I only feel sorry for him.” — Stuart Sutcliffe in a letter to Rod Murray, late 1960

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/07/2023 11:09 PM I mean look at that. Look at the sheer petty contempt in that quote + the caricature. That's something else man. There's no way Paul doesn't carry the memory of that with him. And I think its present in the Revolver cover as well. Look at how Klaus portrays Paul:

I think Paul looks off to the side because that's all Klaus really gets out of him. We all know what it's like to be treated in a crappy way by friends-of-your-friends and I've said before that I think the first Hamburg trip is where a lot of John and Paul's patterns got solidified. So Paul isn't friends with the Exis, even in 1966, because he remembers who Klaus is and who he hung out with and I think those memories are very painful for him. He holds on to them. Maybe not grudges but he holds onto that pain. (And I mean, that's fair. I still remember my elementary school bully and if she were on fire in front of me I wouldn't even take a whizz on her.)

Klaus only ever saw Paul's profile... if they don't meet your eyes do you really know them? John rarely met Yoko's eyes in public I notice, whereas he was constantly diving into Paul's.... right up until that photo from the Lost Weekend where he's turned as far away from Paul as he can get... So Paul's profile being the thing Klaus drew speaks to the distance between Paul and Klaus... and Paul and the other Beatles. Even among other misfits, Paul doesn't fit in. In a lot of ways Linda was the only one who could accept him for his true self even if there was a lot of nastiness underneath that.

I think the 1966 cover is indicative that Paul held Klaus at a distance, even then. Klaus saw Paul's loneliness in Hamburg and how this made him bitter, apparently doesn't empathize with it very much since he played on HDYS.

If Klaus had tried to make friends with Paul as adults, he would have run full into the Wall. There's no way that Paul McCartney would be friends with someone who drew a caricature of him like that when Paul was friendless and in pain and the only thing he had was music and girls.

And I understand that Hamburg was full of psychosexual drama from 18 and 20 year olds, but I think that its significant because of how Paul got frozen in time due to the fame thing, struggling to grow up, suffering from a kind of Peter Pan syndrome.

So I find it interesting that... Paul got a job after Hamburg. I don't think John would have had to show up with George on Paul's lunch break and essentially beg him to come back if Paul had been gung ho about the Beatles. John had to earn his way back into a friendship with Paul. It took months for Paul to give up the job and join the Beatles fully, John remembers it as a "long trip."

There's another recollection that when John finally gave Paul the ultimatum that Paul bounced into the Cavern -- what if this is Paul being happy that John chose him, that John cared enough to give Paul an ultimatum?

John remembers it as a custody battle between him and Jim where he fought Jim for Paul's attention... but what if Paul saw it as something else entirely?

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/07/2023 11:20 PM Like, Paul got a job after Hamburg. He didn't know that John was back in town. I don't think we know when John told him that he was back. I think Paul got a job because he thought that he and John were not friends anymore after his experiences in Hamburg and the last thing he expected was for John to show up and nag him about coming back. I think Paul was convinced that John would go all in with Stuart and the Exis or that they were a sign that John was done with Paul completely. He didn't understand that John was watching Paul the entire time they were in Hamburg, watching Paul be in the filth with him, taking the pills and dealing with the gangsters and living for the music in a way that Stuart never could.

And from Paul's POV, the long stretch of months between John finding him at the spooling yards to beg Paul to come back, and Paul being given an ultimatum that he needed to choose between his job or the Beatles -- I think that period was Paul waiting to see if John really loved him/was really wanting to be Paul's friend or not.

BRrraCKets! — 05/08/2023 4:56 AM Paul doesnt suffer fools gladly, he called out the Exis on some of their bullshit and they didnt like it. They also took to Stuart and I would imagine it was a case of if your friend doesnt like someone then they dont either. Ive always felt that Klaus didnt like Paul, most of his drawings of him arent very nice, theres an odd one thats ok. That Revolver cover has always irked me with how hes drawn Paul compared to the others. I like your take on it.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 5:01 AM Do you remember the details on Paul's interactions with the Exis? I don't remember that from Tune In.

That's a really good point about Stu not liking him so the others took the lead from him, oof.

I think Klaus may have (hopefully) chilled out on Paul since then but yeah, I don't think they're really friendly towards each other. Maybe "dislike" is too strong but they only ever had John and Stu in common and, well. Paul never let Klaus in.

BRrraCKets! — 05/08/2023 5:04 AM Ive read of it somewhere but cant remember where! It was just a sentence or two.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 5:04 AM Probably a Paul bio of which I am reading McCartney Legacy

we'll have to wait for Betty to wake up

BRrraCKets! — 05/08/2023 5:45 AM I wonder, when Stuart left the Beatles, did Klaus hope to take his place on the bass. Paul stepping in would have been another reason to dislike him.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 5:47 AM That's an interesting idea. No clue but maybe that's an angle....

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 6:16 PM He did. I believe he says it in his memoirs, but also in an interview about the book in 2001. He said he asked John, but it was too late; Paul had already taken up the bass

Even if that had happened, I don’t think Klaus would’ve fit in, them all being from Liverpool and Klaus being German (I’m half-German, I can say that lol)

Plus he came from a very rich (diamond mines etc) background..sure, his family lost everything in the war, but some of the posh attitude was still there. And despite being fascinated by it, he didn’t consider rock n roll “real” music

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 7:19 PM did not know this about Klaus, huh

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 7:24 PM He talked about his grandfather being this fabulously rich eccentric

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 7:25 PM huh! i need to check his stuff out then

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 7:31 PM It’s in this German interview

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/kultur/im-interview-klaus-voormann-ich-waere-besser-gewesen-als-paul-1.432929

With the provocative headline “I would’ve been better than Paul”

Apple_Scruff — 05/08/2023 5:48 AM Paul playing based has always sounded like a forced thing out of desperation.

I doubt he would have agreed to switch to bass if Klaus was offering.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 5:51 AM Agree but....he may not have liked it if Klaus offered since he was so pushy about Stuart's playing.

BRrraCKets! — 05/08/2023 6:14 AM He didnt want anyone else muscling in. The group nucleus was set. His guitar was shot, he was filling in on piano, a bit of bass when S couldnt be arsed to show up, what else was he to do when G&J downright refused to take it on. Theyd gone home by then too.

mynamesbetty — 05/08/2023 7:50 AM unfortunately I can't think of anything like that in what I've read, I'll take a look at Tune In and the other Paul bios I have later We know that Paul is willing to ice people out when he feels they aren't working out for him as friends/collaborators, and after months of doing the most for the group and getting shat on by his songwriting partner and the Exis he was probably thinking "fuck it, I don't need this treatment" and got a job to start separating himself from the group

But John knows by now that Paul is his golden ticket and he has to get Paul back, so once he gets over the self-pity of leaving Hamburg in disgrace and works up the courage to ask Paul to come back, he brings George along to present a united front

The Beatles first show after coming back from Hamburg was on December 27 1960 at Litherland Town Hall, a few weeks after John arrived back in Liverpool

And I'd bet anything that Paul skipping back to rehearsal all smiles was because he felt like he'd gotten one over on Stuart and the Exis, in a "nyah-nyah he chose me over you (blows raspberries and making wanking motion)" kind of way

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 8:46 AM yesss perf

And it all worked out for him when John didn't discipline Paul for punching Stuart even tho he most likely lost

He had a good feeling about John making his choice too....

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:24 AM According to that interview from 2001, Klaus asked John to join and play bass right after Stu left, but John said Paul had already taken up the bass

Of course, in 2001, Klaus was still speculating what would have happened if he became the 5th Beatle and saying he thinks his bass playing would’ve been better for John’s style in later years

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:33 AM That whole interview [Klaus] showed both admiration and, imo, some disdain for Paul (and Paul wrote the foreword for his book, I believe) In that Interview he also vehemently denies anything sexual between John and Stu

It’s a fascinating period. I believe I read John was back in Liverpool anywhere from 10 days to three weeks before contacting George and Paul Which means he couldn’t have been to any of their usual hangouts

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 10:36 AM lol lmao

>better for John's later style >john and stu had nothing sexual going on incredible. so many things wrong

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:01 PM John periodically took time off to recharge, it was one of his quirks/needs.

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:45 AM I thinks it’s still a bit of envy…everyone who got close to the Beatles and thinks “what if”

To be fair, he did admit that Paul was instrumental in making the Beatles famous, because “John wasn’t a frontman” and Paul was the only professional of the group

But you can read between the lines that there is disdain there for the Beatles’ early sound and Paul was a “charlatan”….the PR man

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:58 AM It’s interesting that John said the way he felt after he came back after Hamburg was similar to how he felt before Paris 1961…but time he wanted Paul to be there

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:09 PM and Paris 1961 ended up being a two week period of great renewal and joy for John, all because of Paul. No wonder he tried to recreate it with Yoko.

louiselux — 05/08/2023 11:41 AM It’s such a fascinating period! In the breakup Paul must’ve recognised some of John’s behaviour from back then. Dropping Paul and replacing him with someone else who is more arty and special. John may have been being tactical about it back then, maybe playing Paul and Stu against each other, waiting to see where the nexus of power/talent/ambition lay, and therefore his future. Paul wouldn’t have appreciated that at all, like who would? Also John must’ve known the power he had over Paul, and vice versa, in any number of ways inc sexuality, attraction, love, obsession. That cartoon by Klaus is so deeply unkind, coupled with Stu’s letter. You have to wonder what Paul was like with them, and what all of their behaviour was like on the daily.

louiselux — 05/08/2023 11:51 AM But it is so interesting that Paul got a crappy job on the lorries, John ignored them all for weeks, and Stu was never coming back to the band. Because the gig they subsequently did that Christmas at Litherland Town Hall was where they realised how good they were compared to the Liverpool bands, and how vastly exciting the public found them. So back from Hamburg they obviously collectively didn’t know where they were going or what they were doing, or even if they were a band. I wonder just how much persuasion had to go on on John’s part to get back in with Paul. A lot of charming, a lot of fuss and attention, persuading, light grovelling

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:18 PM in Tune In there's a lot of quotes from George about how they felt they had a lot of talent compared to the other bands, even when they were JaPaGe and they didn't actually warrant the confidence. I think for them they were seeking energy, technical ability, and stamina which Hamburg earned them in spades and brought their talent up to their expectations at last.

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 11:57 AM Definitely shades of Yoko/John later on…Paul probably hoped/thought that would play out the same way as Stu.

But we also get so many contradictory stories out of Hamburg, like John claiming he and Paul bullied Stu and afterwards felt bad about it John turned away from music after Julia’s death and turned to drink and rage, it also kinda to Stu and art..only Paul’s persistence in pursuing John (for the band, for himself) turned that a bit back around.

I always wonder if at that point, John wasn’t getting from Paul what he really wanted, also there was still the age gap.. Stu was older, maybe came across as more mature and adventurous

Even George, I believe, said with Yoko, John was trying to replicate what he had with Stu.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:20 PM Yeah. its a conundrum about what that means. Did John actually feel bad after bullying Stu or did he only feel bad because then Stu died and he did some self reflecting?

Paul was very instrumental in helping John cope with losing Julia, to be fair. Paul is cited by many outsiders to be the only one who never lost his patience with John even when he was being a public embarrassment or acting violent and cruel. my personal take is that Paul is the one who cleaned John up and made him fit company for Stu and Cynthia and otherwise they would have both run away from John..

louiselux — 05/08/2023 12:01 PM That is completely fascinating to think of Yoko as a Stu replacement.

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 12:03 PM Yoko’s comments how John talked about Stu every day and how he was the best friend he ever had…I always thought she did that hurt Paul. And also, Stu died so young, I can believe John put him up on some untouchable pedestal that wouldn’t have survived if Stu had lived

louiselux — 05/08/2023 12:04 PM Agreed. You have to wonder what Lennon/McCartney would have been like with a Sutcliffe in the mix. Maybe not that different, possibly. Because Paul grew in confidence and became endlessly bold and weird

louiselux — 05/08/2023 12:08 PM Yoko likely said a lot of things with the intention of hurting him

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:08 PM A lot of people who were John-oriented have this complaint, that they think Paul was somehow "fake" just because he's good at selling and connects with an audience. IMO it always says a lot more about the complainer's personal issues with Paul rather than it being a legitimate criticism. Klaus doesn't like Paul because Paul cut the Exis down to size and Stuart apparently overtly hated him, then Stuart died and Paul took over the bass position which Klaus apparently asked for himself (‼️) and then Paul had the nerve to go swanning all over the world getting famous for being John's creative partner.... and no matter what Klaus says, he has eyes, he knows how John looked at Paul and what that meant.

It's just another case of someone being bitter because of Paul's success. John used Klaus as a bassman on HDYS the recording that Ringo walked out on but George did not.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:16 PM It being John looking for a potential future, that's an interesting idea. I think at that point John had kind of given up on that since he had been kicked out of art school by that point or was on his way to doing it. Music became his life because it kept his attention and he loved it -- he told a girl he was dating at the Cavern not to screw up her placement at art school the way he did. I don't know if he had high expectations for himself there -- what did John think of his heart? was he actually proud of it?

Paul said that he'd sometimes gang up on Stu with John as well as vice versa so I think it was definitely a case of John pitting them against each other to make them compete for the Best Friend spot. But then when Paul was deported he got a job instead of crawling back to John.... very reminiscent of the break up. Paul would fight for John but once he perceived he lost (Stu, Yoko) then he was perfectly capable of cutting John off. Paul is sensitive to being mistreated.

this is all speculation but I think that first trip was hard for Paul. He was lonely, he wanted John's attention, probably acted out and then got mocked and jeered at for it.

So he paid women to pay attention to him and then he was attractive and treated them decently which made him popular so while John is enjoying Stu's company and hanging out with the Exis, Paul simply hides in women and practices his guitar.

We have seen this before.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:21 PM John wanted an equal and Paul just wasn't it, even if they had chemistry. John didn't take Paul seriously until Hamburg in 1960 when he watched Paul become a man and watched him be furiously independent no matter what slings and arrows he took.

But Stu was patient and was able to meet John on a different field with Art, and John needed that very much. Paul was too young for what he wanted in a very real way.

with a Stuart that lived, I think Paul would have been pushed to make a public declaration to John instead of waffling forever. Stu was Paul's only serious competition.

louiselux — 05/08/2023 1:31 PM I think so too! Something would have had to give, because John could have gone running off to Stu at any moment

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 1:33 PM I do wonder about that scenario. It looked like John had accepted that Stu was off with Astrid. And the Paris honeymoon happened while Stu was still alive. It seems like J and P had cemented and defined their relationship

Now if Stu and Astrid didn’t last and Stu came back to Liverpool at some point…

He may have always been hanging around in the background…or maybe not.

mynamesbetty — 05/08/2023 2:04 PM John praising Paul's abilities as a bass player in 1980 must have rankled him lol, he said Paul was one of the most innovative bass players in rock

mynamesbetty — 05/08/2023 2:27 PM addendum: The Beatles with Chas Newby on bass played the Casbah on December 17 1960, we regret the error

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 2:36 PM Good! I hope it rankled

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 3:35 PM Stu had no future in Liverpool and he knew it. His application for a position at the Liverpool art college was rejected and he had a great apprenticeship going with an older German artist who recognized his talent. Stuart had no reason to back to Liverpool except to visit. I also think that Stu found his person in Astrid and their relationship would have worked.

I think the greatest threat to Paul would not be Stu's presence but what he represented in John's life: a peer who had a profound hold on John in an avenue that Paul wasn't confident about competing in. I think Paul would be very worried about John going back to Stu for sure, because he can't help being insecure about their relationship.

I think, to this day even since John is fucking dead, Paul is still worried that he will make John disgusted or bored and that John will leave him again. Irrational? Yeah. True? You bet.

I think a timeline where Stuart lives would force Paul into a corner: either he breaks the relationship or he takes a leap of faith.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 4:01 PM if anything else, this fundamental fear of Paul's would be the driver to any action Paul took regarding John in a timeline where Stuart lives. The deathly fear that Stu will take John away from him, again... Stu didn't have to be present in Liverpool, his specter would hang over everything.

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 4:25 PM I can completely see that. And totally agree on Paul’s fears until this day.

I just wonder if Stu would’ve kept this idealised spot… or if he would’ve pissed John off some point like a lot of people did, which led John to cutting him off.

Or, I guess, John could’ve remained loyal to him like he did to many old friends (at least until New York) and maybe got him to do cover or promo art for The Beatles. Can you imagine?!

Stu was so very young; it’s difficult to say what could’ve happened

Misery — 05/08/2023 4:30 PM God and the thing with Paul in Hamburg too is like

Here’s this high strung cash strapped teenager. Now we’re going to take him to a foreign country, get him addicted to amphetamines, and completely abandon him for a “cooler” friend group. Wait, why is he being so annoying?????

Like, the exis loved George, and Pete was just doing his own thing because he was so independent from the rest of the group, meanwhile Paul is all of a sudden entirely friendless for seemingly no reason, and the things that he was doing back in Liverpool are suddenly seen as annoying and stupid, and he’s being ignored left and right.

And obviously the huge caveat for the drama in Hamburg is of course that they were all idiot teens/barely adults, who had suddenly been thrust into a new stressful circumstance, so no wonder they all went insane a little bit.

Like you’ve all said it’s something that time/stu living would change a lot, but that wasn’t meant to be

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 6:24 PM I really feel for Paul during that trip. I think we can kinda guess what he was feeling, but I can’t get a real read on John at the time.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 7:24 PM Yeah, John is a real enigma here. He was very close mouthed about this period aside from some little things. Presumably because it's too painful with Stuart's death. Or maybe he just didn't care because the whole thing didn't have the same weight for him as it did for Paul... or he was too ashamed to talk about it....

But John not caring seems very unlikely since Hamburg 1960 is where he came out even more insane about Paul.

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 7:33 PM It might’ve been the drugs, his sexual explorations, mental health issues..but it is interesting he didn’t really talk about that period… Maybe too painful because it was the real start of them as The Beatles and he really missed it

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 7:38 PM ouch

this is a big part of it i bet

mynamesbetty — 05/08/2023 8:04 PM Tune In, written by the king of the Paul haters, pg 374-5

Many Years From Now, pg 64-5

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 8:06 PM the amount of seething contempt for a lonely 18 year old in these paragraphs, astounding

Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:26 PM And I don’t think we can 100% trust Stu’s view of things either. That’s maybe how he wanted things to be. I’m not saying Paul didn’t have a rough time, but Stu may have embellished somewhat in that letter (because he also knew how important Paul was to John ultimately)

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 10:54 PM Yeah. It occurs to me (like now, as I'm writing this) that Stuart was probably venting in that letter. I don't think he liked Paul at all but that's a lot of hatefulness in one sentence and I really dislike the idea of John deliberately tolerating someone who overtly despised Paul that much. John was an asshole at times but I struggle to imagine him encouraging that level of antipathy. So hopefully it wasn't quite that bad for Paul.

louiselux — 05/09/2023 3:12 AM Also him thinking that a letter from anyone reveals ‘the stark truth of the matter’ rather than just another pov on a situation. Mehhhh. I didn’t know that about Klaus asking to be the bass player. He seems to be a person who was used to getting what he wanted, being rich and pretty, and is it possible that he resented Paul for taking a place in the Beatles/John’s friendship that he thought should have been his?

louiselux — 05/09/2023 3:26 AM The situation is weird and so opaque. I doubt John ‘hated’ Paul, as Stu put it, because why would he suddenly hate him after being so close? But John might’ve loved being accepted as a part of the new exciting clique and that might’ve trumped everything else for a bit. John was obsessed with having his gang. It feels like a lot of heightened teenage dynamics we’re going on.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:23 AM thinking that the letter holds some objective truth is a classic mistake that Lewisohn makes all the time, because its easier than accepting that there were multiple POVs on what happened. Lewisohn thinks he can flatten everything and that there's an objective "truth" to discover and present (courtesy of him naturally.) It's just dumb no matter what. One of the first things I was taught about historical study was that primary sources are king because multiple POVs proliferate. It was Paul who compared Beatlemania to an earthquake and how different stories sprout from it and they're all true.

I wonder how much Klaus was shitposting or trying to grab attention via headlines with claims like that. I would be very surprised if John gave serious consideration to Klaus joining the band, Paul was already a sure thing and he clearly wasn't going to be happy with anyone else playing bass. I hope Klaus didn't actually think he had a shot, it just makes no sense for Klaus to join the Beatles from any angle.

If he really believed that he had a shot at joining the Beatles and Paul somehow stood in his way.... then uhhhh what the heck lmao

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:34 AM This seems very likely, good insight. Makes me wonder if John staying friends with Paul might have rankled Stu as their rivalry increased? "Don't worry Rod everyone else totally hates him here but I only feel sorry for him."

John liked new experiences and getting swept away with things so its not surprising that he got enamored with the Exis. They were arty, new, and offered a fresh POV for him to see the world. Anyone would be intrigued by such a friends group. The fact that they were happy to be dominated by John and enjoyed Stuart (especially since Stu and Astrid hit it off!) probably makes it inevitable that someone would end up on the outside and that someone was Paul.

1960 John especially would be feeling his adolescent insecurities very hard so he'd naturally want the Exis as under his thumb as he could get them. I wonder if Stuart also enjoyed being controlled that way? I don't actually know how independent he was of John compared to Paul. (Tho no one ever matched Paul in sheer tenaciousness when it came to escaping John's gravity well.)

The pills, alcohol, and sleeplessness would naturally exacerbate all this.

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 10:49 AM Maybe I’m being too judgmental when it comes to Klaus; it’s hard to judge his tone in written form. Maybe he sounded self-deprecating when answering, but I was surprised that 40 years on (at the time), instead of just saying “it’s tantalising to imagine me being part of the Beatles, but nah they were perfect they way they were and I’ve my own life”…he actually still brings up how his bass playing could’ve maybe been better for the band at some point.

To be fair, he also says Beatlemania wouldn’t have happened without Paul (his looks, his professionalism) , and that Klaus himself maybe wouldn’t have had the necessary charisma

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 10:53 AM Totally agree with this. It was a wild few months; them also being away from home for the first time as well (and in a very strange environment). So many outsiders have described the bond they had before Hamburg, how Paul seemed to make John come alive etc; they already had a solid foundation. I don’t think anyone could’ve muscled in there permanently

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 12:29 PM We don't know much about him so its hard not to give him side eye sometimes lol. Ultimately Klaus seems grateful for what the Beatles did for him and how he got to have a place in history thanks to them. I wouldn't necessarily label him negatively since he seems content with his lot and has gotten to make a lot of great art over the years. He likes his niche.

Otoh its still really weird that he's apparently still maintaining a delusion about being a potential Beatle. IMO it once again says more about his relationship with Paul than anything else. Paul is the bedrock of the band and without him, there are no Beatles. Lots of people resent him for this, even other Beatles. I would bet Klaus, like many, is pulled in by John's charisma, values George as a friend, and resents/resented the fact that he couldn't get closer to them because Paul filled that space. "If I was in his place then I could be with George and John all the time and we'd be even better friends. What's so special about Paul's bass playing anyway? I'm just as good." That's the kind of resentment that sticks with you when you have famous friends i guess.

But it also misses the point and the importance of Paul: Paul's bass playing was creative and innovative. He brought new sounds into the band. He also had the energy to get them over their creative humps to deliver material for new records and consistently hit their deadlines. Paul wasn't just "the bassplayer." He was John's everything, the one who delivered results, and the one who made the records work for the Beatles. If Klaus was really as good as he thinks he is then John would have made him a fixture during the solo years. But John didn't do that because Klaus is no match for Paul's ability to consistently deliver results.

I suspect Klaus knows this or he wouldn't admit to Paul's success like that. But its probably very hard to be close to the Beatles because you would naturally want a piece of it.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 12:32 PM

So many outsiders have described the bond they had before Hamburg, how Paul seemed to make John come alive etc; they already had a solid foundation. I don’t think anyone could’ve muscled in there permanently

An extremely vital point and probably the ultimate root of the resentment surrounding Paul during that time (or any other time). No matter what they did or where they took him, John still wanted to return to Paul.

There is something special and unique about Paul that had John loving him deeply and to the exclusion of others. Even back then.

mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 2:00 PM I'd just like to add that re: drugs, Paul was wary of the Prellies and usually stuck to one a night, where John was eating them like candy Paul had already shown reticence towards drugs when he refused to partake of chewing the benzedrine cartridges inside nasal sprays back in Liverpool, so that's another aspect of the "Paul's not as cool and worldly as the rest of us" ganging up on him

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 3:04 PM And then that of course carried over to Paul not wanting to try acid at first

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 3:04 PM Yeah... so Paul was often on the outside that way too

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 3:07 PM I wonder if John saw that as Paul keeping a part of himself back; of not totally committing so they could share everything together

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 3:13 PM That's a big part of it. Tune In says John habitually used Prellies to try to get people to talk to him, he used it as a tool to get people to open up. So Paul dragging his heels and only doing it when he felt like it would be infuriating (and enchanting) to John because Paul was refusing to submit to John's direction and control. Paul could skate on the edges of John's gravity well and refused to get closer until he decided to.

It also may be that John was anxious about doing these things without Paul. He wanted Paul to mirror him very early and Paul's refusal to do so fascinated him especially for those moments where Paul did eventually cave and the mirroring turned out fantastic -- it made the victories sweeter. Pete Shotton said John needed a partner in everything he did, even when he was a little kid, so it was a genuine need in him to want someone like Paul.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 3:21 PM Makes me wonder how palpable John's attraction to Paul must have been -- even if he didn't fully realize it in Hamburg yet. I fully believe that there is some watershed moment we don't know about for John realizing how deep his attraction to Paul ran.

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 3:33 PM He said he chose Paul as his partner (in music), but we know it was so much more than that. At some point he realised, ‘this is the one’. If only he’d gotten to write his memoirs…. 😢

BRrraCKets! — 05/09/2023 4:00 PM I wonder if his attraction scared him a little and that’s why he backed right off in that first Hamburg trip.

He had plenty to distract him.

When Paul was deported, John was left behind. He could easily have stayed and pursued something there and kept near Stuart, but he didnt. He went back to Liverpool. Brooded on it for a while, then pursued Paul to get back with him.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 4:06 PM I never thought of the possibility of him staying behind with Stu but you're right! oh wow

BRrraCKets! — 05/09/2023 4:06 PM I think that’s when he decided Paul was it for him.

He could have looked at picking up his art again, like Stu did, or music in another band. His heart must have decided on music, but music meant Paul.

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 4:12 PM oh my god!!!! :sobface:

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 4:13 PM And also the trauma of Paul being deported... Klaus has a drawing of Paul and Pete being shoved into a cop car, I wonder if John was there if it happened like that with Paul and Pete being taken off the street

Like for John that's another loss but instead of Paul abandoning him that's someone taking Paul away from him

And so he goes home later that week.... and he stays shut up in his room for days... and when he emerges he gets George and goes straight to Paul.....

BRrraCKets! — 05/09/2023 4:15 PM He can’t do it without Paul.

Hahaha in a roundabout way, Paul made John choose between him and Stu, and Paul won!

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 4:17 PM After all that mess, John really did have a shot to choose Stuart and do art forever, hang out in Hamburg and never go back. Stuart evaded deportation by living in Astrid's house, John could do the same. But John played a few nights alone and then took all the gear back by himself

and then he chose Paul while he was convalescing in his bedroom....

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 5:10 PM I do think that was definitely part of it… but I don’t think it would’ve been that easy for him to stay had he wanted to… Stu was different because he’d already started establishing himself there outside of the band (and he had Astrid and her family, who couldn’t be expected to take on John as well).

John had no money. I believe he continued playing with other bands only to fulfil contractual obligations (?). And he said he was depressed after Hamburg, thinking this was maybe as far as music could take them… to seedy bars in a red light district. Coming back to Liverpool, I wonder what his thought process and state of relationship with Paul was like.

Now in 1961, when he again faces a crisis regarding continuing with music, he obviously chooses Paul…even without the music. Even though they were making decent-ish money in Liverpool by then, John was fed up and wanted to run away (at least for a bit).

I know people say he didn’t take Cyn to Paris because she was busy with school and unmarried couples didn’t really travel together, but I think it was more than that. He’d decided it was going to be him and Paul… in any potential endeavour, even if it wasn’t a band. That carries on through to their later ideas of writing a play, a musical together; and just always writing together

That said, I don’t think he actually wanted to stay in Hamburg

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 5:59 PM Yeah, John stayed in Hamburg for the contractual stuff. Considering its a port town it would have been easy for him to stay IMO but who knows. I think it does indicate that staying with Stuart didn't cross his mind; if it had and if John had really wanted it, he could have found a way. The fact that he didn't and instinctively went home (to the place where Paul had been forced to go) indicates just how strong Paul's hold on him was, despite John not knowing what he was going to do next.

The depression is just John's pattern I think. He had tall highs and deep lows. John coming back from Hamburg reminds me of reading descriptions of his return home from their tours and how inaccessible he was to Cynthia and Julian because of his profound depression. Hamburg was absolutely similar -- women, booze, pep pills to keep them awake and then it ended traumatically leaving John in a very bleak place. The physical low from coming off all those prellies would be crazy and John was addicted. He may have been going through detox which would destabilize his mental scape. The same thing happened with the tours and the amount of drugs they were doing, particularly the coke, which meant that John crashed after each tour because he stopped inhaling all those drugs.

We can only speculate about his thought process post-Hamburg but John repeated patterns, that was his entire thing. I think looking at the Dakota years could tell us a lot, albeit with the caveat that John hadn't done any "splitting" regarding Paul yet. He probably felt bleak, wondering if there was a point in continuing. He knew there was more pain ahead of him if he continued with the Beatles. John knew they were good and probably realized they were better than their peers but maybe he realized that he might have bungled things with Paul. He's watching the wheels.... Then he ran into George on the street iirc and that's when things solidified for him: he needed music and that meant he needed Paul.

So he takes George with him because he needs the support and doesn't want to appear vulnerable in front of someone he probably knows he wasn't kind to. And Paul holds him at arms length for a while but John is persistent and finally tells Paul that he's not going to settle for being half time anymore, Paul needs to commit to him.

When it comes to Paris and such: Paul, for John, represents renewal and possibility. He renewed after Hamburg in 1960 and sought out Paul for it. He renewed in 1961 and they went on their honeymoon in Paris. In 1980, John was preparing to record with Paul and was actively leaving Yoko.

John's mental aesthetic regarding Paul always contained admiration (and sometimes resentment) for Paul's endless energy and his ability to createcreatecreate. That's an energy that John relied on. He used it emotionally as well as musically.

mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 7:57 PM and on the flip side we have John unfairly blaming Paul for John's inability to write by accusing Paul of bouncing along and writing like a fiend without thinking about how John was feeling, in the "I was going through murder" period

...and then, much later, John hears "Coming Up" on the radio and something long dormant sparks up inside him

VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:33 PM I'm soo late to this conversation but I love it! I wanna add my favourite Hamburg era tidbit that's hidden away in a footnote in Tune In, because I think it's really interesting to compare the aftermath of the 1960 first Hamburg trip with the 1961 Hamburg trip. TL;DR Paris was not the only time John and Paul ran away holidayed together in 1961

we all know John and Paul went to visit Betty and Mike in Caversham in April 1960, but Paul has stated multiple times that they took two trips to visit his cousin, the second one travelling down to Ryde on the Isle of Wight. But when did they take this trip? It's referenced in MYFN but no timeframe is given.

Mark Lewisohn proposes that the only obvious window is July 1961, directly after they arrived home from Hamburg - they had nine days off before they were back onstage in Liverpool on July 13. You'd think they would have spent this time kicking back at home after three months away, catching up w/ family and friends.......... but if that were the case, Lewisohn says, why didn't they attend Ringo's massive 21st birthday bash on July 8th?? All the biggest bands in Liverpool were invited, but the Beatles were conspicuously absent.

so if Lewisohn's hunch is correct and they swanned off to Ryde right after they just dragged their exhausted asses back from Hamburg, the implications of that are 👀 !!! bc that means Paul's behaviour towards John was sooo markedly different compared to the previous trip. Paul resigned himself to a shitty factory job in 1960, John had to win Paul back and prove himself to him, the band's future was in limbo..... but HERE, to me it's like 1961 Paul is staking his claim. By immediately taking John on a quick holiday to Ryde, he's actively preventing another post-Hamburg comedown and securing them some 1-on-1 time to re-cement their partnership

especially considering that Paul's tension with Stuart was arguably at an all-time high in 1961 -- they had their fight near the end of that trip, Dot and Cynthia came to visit but John & Cyn actually spent more time with Astrid & Stuart than with Paul..... I can just so see Paul being like :paulbuthehasagun: oh you like the beach John? you went to the beach with stuart? Come to this picturesque coastal town with me right the fuck now you're gonna love it

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:46 PM Veggie I love this connection. you're brilliant

mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 9:47 PM get your man Paul!!

interesting that Paul made the first move here

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:48 PM

feral for this

YES.... after all that fuss in Hamburg they came back and Paul pushed John up against a wall and said "you're coming with me now" and john just went "o-okay"

Paul resigned himself to a shitty factory job in 1960, John had to win Paul back and prove himself to him, the band's future was in limbo..... but HERE, to me it's like 1961 Paul is staking his claim. By immediately taking John on a quick holiday to Ryde, he's actively preventing another post-Hamburg comedown and securing them some 1-on-1 time to re-cement their partnership

yes!!! he learned from 1960, he didn't give John a chance to get down in the dumps! he said "let's go on an adventure John!" and he just took him reminding John that this isn't like last time. in short Paul broke the pattern

I can just so see Paul being like :paulbuthehasagun: oh you like the beach John? you went to the beach with stuart? Come to this picturesque coastal town with me right the fuck now you're gonna love it

the jealousy angle at work here. oh my god

mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 9:51 PM as long as they keep moving John can't sink into a funk which may have further implications re: Paul's work ethic

VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:51 PM aieeee I'm obsessed w/ it

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:51 PM Veggie you're a genius

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:52 PM john's in a depression? let's do something and distract him from it... 1960? on the rocks, worry and frustration. 1961? "dis mine dis MINE"

VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:54 PM while they seemed to make a lot of progress in Hamburg RE: trading up to better and better clubs, it really stood out to me in Tune In that after their 2nd trip they just returned to the same old in Liverpool, again - same circuit of halls and clubs, no one on their level, no upward momentum until Brian in November. So I love how John and Paul dealt with this by repeatedly skipping out on commitments when they got bored and goin on trips together

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:54 PM yeah! they decided it wasn't worth their time so they bolted

and they were right too lmao

they wanted to be together instead of playing the same circuit over and over...

VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:56 PM and then Stuart's writing letters like "they quit the band and went to Paris to play together? I don't believe it..."

Paul's like "you'd bETTER BELIEVE IT BUDDY"

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 9:58 PM Wasn’t it said that Ticket to Ride was inspired by Ryde?

VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:59 PM yes fs, I think Paul restates this in The Lyrics again too? don't have it in front of me, but yes

VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:58 PM Oh I thought we’d shared that quote here already but no it’s legit

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 10:00 PM this is the possessive Paul we need

mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 10:10 PM Paul stomps in like "he's my soulmate, get your own!" and whisks John off on a road trip

Apple_Scruff — 05/09/2023 10:11 PM Stuart literally having his own soulmate Astrid the whole time: confused

Morrigan — 05/09/2023 10:44 PM People have to had seen the special connection between them…John wasn’t going on trips to Ryde or Paris or Caversham with just George

louiselux — 05/10/2023 3:25 AM So fascinating and such great detective work! I wonder too if Paul thought he might be detoxing John, or whether they both had that in mind? Sun, sea, fresh air, no amphetamines etc, just wholesome British beer lol.

louiselux — 05/10/2023 7:06 AM There's just something so innocent about Paul taking him on a seaside holiday, compared to what they had just been doing in Hamburg, it's so sweetly unsophisticated.

I've been to Ryde. The whole of the Isle of Wight, where Ryde is the main town, is just off mainland UK and it feels stuck about 30 years in the past, so Ryde in the early 60s might've felt very old fashioned indeed.

#mclennon #hamburg #hamburg days #the beatles #stuart sutcliffe #beatles meta #my meta #john lennon #paul mccartney #mclennon server

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