#catullus 64

[inspofromancientworld]

The Building of the Argo and its Ancient Origins

By Schorle - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=7027254

Gaius Valerius Catullus, more commonly known as Catullus was a Roman poet who lived from 84-54 BCE. In his short life, he wrote 113 poems, many of which are still read today. He was born in Verona to a prominent family, so much so that his father entertained Julius Caesar when he was the proconsul. They also had a villa near modern day Trivoli, near a resort there. His status allowed him to meet many other poets and orators and he dedicated and wrote poems about them. He was even able to lampoon Julius Caesar and was invited to a dinner with Caesar the day he apologized. He wrote several poems about a woman he called 'Lesbia' (a nod to Sappho) who had 'no fewer than five lovers in addition to Catullus'. It is thought that the woman Lesbia was based on was Clodia Metelli, whose husband died under mysterious circumstances in 59 BCE. Though Catullus burned with passion for Clodia, she was indifferent to him. His response to this can be found in his poems, from devout passion to bitter scorn. He spent a year, from summer 57 BCE to 56 BCE on the staff for Gaius Memmius at Bithynia. There are also poems that speak of a boy Juventius, not named, but someone he likely knew in his childhood and went to Rome with him. His poems also reflect his ongoing relationship with whomever Juventius was meant to be.

Catullus' writings style was influenced by Greek poets such as Callimachus and Homer, as well as Sappho. He's also part of a group that are considered 'moderns' or 'new poets' because they sought to create a new type of poetry that reflected their contemporary time, focused on personal and intimate themes rather than heroes and gods, and when there is focus on the actions of heroes and gods, the focus tends toward the personalities rather than the actions.

By Unknown author - Scanné de Coureurs des mers, Poivre d'Arvor., Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=3510397

Jason, leader of the Argonauts, was the husband to the sorceress Medea, granddaughter to Helios, the Greek sungod, rightful king of Iolcos. and great-grandson of Poseidon. His father's half-brother wants to take over Thessaly, which pushes the newborn Jason into hiding to be raised by the centaur Chiron, with his mother claiming to have had an affair with Chiron the whole time. His uncle goes to an oracle, who tells him to watch out for the one-sandaled man. Years later, Jason shows up to royal games wearing a single sandal after having lost one helping Hera (wearing an old woman's guise) across a river. Jason's uncle, thinking he was clever, said, 'To take my throne, which you shall, you must go on a quest to find the Golden Fleece.' Jason accepts and assembles a bunch of heroes, including Heracles, Orpheus, and Argus. They build and sail the boat.

By Sebastiano Ricci - The Yorck Project (2002) 10.000 Meisterwerke der Malerei (DVD-ROM), distributed by DIRECTMEDIA Publishing GmbH. ISBN: 3936122202., Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=158307

The Building of the Argo is part of Catullus 64, which is a 'little epic' and Catullus' longest poem. Though the poem purports to be about the parents of Achilles being married, a lot of the poem is about Theseus deserting Ariadne. In the original myth, Theseus never looked at Ariadne, but in the poem there is the implication that they interact, were even in love and how Ariadne even turned to Bacchus in her pain. The poem as a whole is a reflection on better times, when gods came to weddings, as it was written during the Roman Civil war.

The portion that details the building of the Argo starts '[w]hen Argos' sons, the golden fleece to gain/That hung in Colchis, dared the briny main'. The '[f]air Amphitrite's [goddess of the sea, consort to Poseidon] crystal bosom taught/To bear the work her magic hands wrought:/Scares its swift prow through the cleaved ocean flew'. Those on the Argo '[d]aily the enormous structure they beheld,/To mortal eeyes their naked frames revealed', referring to the structure of not only the Argo, but also the sea itself, so that eventually, 'full to view, emerging from the flood,/Their swelling breasts and shapes half-human stood.'

The Building of the Argo can be found here. The entire of Catullus 64 can be found here.

[ceaseless-watchers-special-girl]

Not to obliterate any consistency my blog has but like. Can I talk about Catullus for a hot sec

No one who follows me is under any obligation to read this whatsoever. It's rambling I just have a lot of feelings ok

Catullus 64, man. This fucking poem. I fell in love with it literally before I even read it — I got part of it printed onto a fucking blanket so I can curl up underneath this poem and be all wrapped up in it.

Today, we read a section where he describes Bacchus coming to find Ariadne after she's been abandoned on Naxos. Catullus describes him as 'te quaerens, Ariadna' (seeking you, Ariadne). Now I could get into everything my Latin teacher said about how seeking is often used to mean love, the link it has to Sappho SAPPHO LOVE OF MY LIFE MARRY ME PLS but that's not what I've been thinking about for the entire day.

"You, Ariadne". Let's think about that for a second. Catullus isn't writing direct speech anymore, it's supposed to be the omniscient narrator talking. Who tf is talking to Ariadne here? Narrators are not supposed to talk to the characters they speak about.

But here, he does. He can't help himself. He calls out to Ariadne, he is overwhelmed by the sorrow that consumes her because Theseus has left her SON OF A BITCH THESEUS HOW COULD YOU FUCKING ROT IN HELL and Catullus can't stop himself from calling out to her, trying to tell her that someone is coming for her, that she is not being left to die. He is so moved by the plight he has written for her that he calls out to her as if she were there with him, as if he could console her.

Catullus is writing in the style of an epic. Narrators of epics only call out to heroes at moments of intense emotion. Wanna know the example I was given that absolutely crushed me? Patroclus. In the Iliad, Homer calls out to Patroclus during his final fight before his death. I know you bitches who've read the Song of Achilles find that devastating.

Just. Fucking. Authors so connected to their characters that they forget they're narrating for a second. They let their own voice slip into the narrative, a desperate cry to let the characters know they're not alone. To praise them, to console them, to say I know you and I love you and I am so, so sorry.

And I know Catullus didn't forget shit. I know he wrote that in on purpose. But fuck, it hits hard.

[girlcatullus]

about a man looking at a dog on the subway

from my hiding places, i can’t say

what shies away behind that gaze.

i don’t get people

and i don’t get dogs.

i await the night and empty streets

to finally breath in the stars above.

or at least i thought

that after a life like this,

although ongoing still,

atop a column

crosslegged,

within my dark and humid

hermit cave,

my eyes had now gone

all pale and soft,

those of a salamander

or a hare,

unknown to most -

a beast that stalks

the mountain depths,

that scares

with its yellow

indecipherable stare.

my sight, however

is still working

and my limbs still bend

to sit down, to eat

and to rejoice,

in case a friend gets married.

i don’t get people

and i don’t get dogs:

but,

this is true up to the point

where it’s impossible to

fully grasp

anything at all.

it’s incomplete,

something between

the extremes of zero and

one.

i stare at you, too,

curious, hands in my lap

and a slight fear, mixed

with the desire

to touch you.

edl, 16/9/23

[nicandros]

Struck with thoughts and ideas for craft projects i don't have the skill to see through

[splendidemendax]

hey is your friend on bandcamp or similar? i'd like to buy a copy of this album because i desperately need to eat "black mark (ariadne)" whole

New Greek Myth EP!

My friend from grad school just released her first EP, based on Greek and Roman mythography! She's been working on this for a long time and I'm so excited for people to be able to hear the finished product!

[tylermileslockett]

Theseus #6 (The Abandonment of Ariadne)

Having succeeded in his mission to slay the Minotaur, breaking King Minos demand for yearly sacrifices of Athenian tributes, Theseus flees Crete with the Princess Ariadne in the cover of night. A terrible storm forces them to stop on the Island of Dia (Nexos), where they find rest and respite in the safety and warmth of each other’s arms. But that night, Dionysus visits Theseus in a dream, threatening death if he does not abandon the princess, for Dionysus has also fallen in love with her. With a heavy heart, Theseus sneaks away in the night and puts out to sea, leaving her behind. Dionysus takes Ariadne as his wife, eventually bringing her to Olympus, making her immortal, and begetting many children with her.

there are many different versions told of princess Ariadne’s fate. According to the cryptic passage in Homer’s Odyssey, on the island of Naxos, she was slain by Artemis with Dionysus as witness; suggesting a blasphemous act of lust within the god’s sacred grove (mirroring Ovid’s later ending for the Atalanta myth).  Plutarch, in his Life of Theseus chapter from his work “Parallel lives,” recounts an array of variations; from her hanging herself upon abandonment, to her settling down with a Dionysian priest. There’s even a version that tells of Ariadne being turned to stone by Perseus! Ovid says that Dionysus set Ariadne’s jeweled Cretan crown up into the night sky, becoming the constellation “Corona Borealis.”

Another fascinating version is the Roman poet Catullus’ “Poem 64”, which has a furious Ariadne calling on goddesses to curse Theseus for abandoning her, which results in the many tragedies that follow in the hero’s life.

Like this art? It will be in my illustrated book with over 130 other full page illustrations coming in Aug/Sept to kickstarter.  to get unseen free hi-hes art subscribe to my email newsletter

Follow my backerkit kickstarter notification page.

Thank you for supporting independent artists! 🤘❤️🏛😁

[marcusagrippa]

gestures expansively. does this make any sense

alcibiades i / catullus 51 / the mirror of the self, shadi barscht / catullus 58 / collective violence and sacrifice in shakespeare’s julius caesar, rené girard / catullus 77 / cicero, the megalenses and the defence of caelius / catullus 64 / political bedfellows: tullia, dolabella and caelius / catullus 5 / introduction to the pro caelio, r g austin / misc (will update once i have found)

[ovidianodes]

Catullus truly understood men 😔 (Catullus 64, Daisy Dunn)

[fluentisonus]

yeah

like the way lucretius and catullus are such close contemporaries & there's any number of things we can compare between their work and yet we can never really be sure enough about dates etc to know which of them read or was inspired by the other in what order

[alittlegreekreader]

the traditional Harkins-esque "auto-allegory" reading of cat. 63 & 64 doesn't really hold up imo in the sense that i don't think these poems can be read as direct parallels to catullus' relationship with lesbia specifically. but catullus does show a preoccupation with questions of familial obligation and family destruction in both 63 & 64 - ariadne calls the minotaur her germanus, her full brother (which he is not, biologically), attis calls their homeland patria mei creatrix, patria mea genetrix, & likens their relationship to it as that of a slave to their master, both express a sense that they have failed to fulfil their obligations to/been the means of destroying their families - and in his poems to his brother. his family's whole house is buried with his brother; he goes to perform the funeral rites for his brother because he 'owes' it to him; most interestingly in terms of dialogue with 63 & 64, he seems to accept responsibility for his brother's death in 68 with the protesilaus & laodamia comparison. it seems to me that there absolutely is a correspondence with catullus' preoccupations elsewhere in the collection in both these poems it's just...not the one anyone draws out lol.

[yloiseconeillants]

ok you don't get an essay you get a conspiracy board but listen- i am making the connections i am drawing the lines i am stretching this red thread all over the fucking board

Pushkin, A. (1892). The Queen of Spades (Mrs. S. Edwards, Trans.). The Queen of Spades and Other Stories by Alexander Pushkin, https://www.gutenberg.org/files/55024/55024-h/55024-h.htm (Original work published 1834)

Debrohun, J. B. (1999). Ariadne and the Whirlwind of Fate: Figures of Confusion in Catullus 64. 149-57. Classical Philology, 94(4), 419–430. http://www.jstor.org/stable/270574

Süner, Ahmet. (2019). Class Difference and the Right to Privacy: The Ambiguous Moral Bets of Pushkin's "The Queen of Spades". 41-66. https://dergipark.org.tr/en/pub/igdirsosbilder/issue/66826/1045101

Grenier, S. (1996). “Everyone Knew Her...” or Did They? Rereading Pushkin’s Lizaveta Ivanovna (“The Queen of Spades”). Canadian Slavonic Papers / Revue Canadienne Des Slavistes, 38(1/2), 93–107. http://www.jstor.org/stable/40869774

[enlitment]

Top 5 lines written by Catullus!

Thank you for the ask (and for indulging me!). I may stretch the definition of what can realistically be considered 'a line' a bit, but it's for the sake of context, I promise!

C 31: Sirmio

O what freedom from care is more joyful/ than when the mind lays down its burden/and weary, back home from foreign toil/ we rest in the bed we longed for?

This one is just incredibly relatable for anyone coming back home from any long trip! It is just as true now as it was more than 2000 years ago.

2: C 99: Stolen Kisses: to Iuventius

you have handed wretched me over to spiteful Love/nor have you ceased to torture me in every way/so that for me that kiss is now changed from ambrosia/to be harsher than harsh hellebore

I've included this line mostly because I love the contrast between ambrosia and hellebore. I also think that there is something powerful and effective about taste metaphors, yet I don't see them used very often. Here, it manages to beautifully illustrate poor Catullus' feelings in this particular situation! (Though obviously, you shouldn't go on kissing people out of the blue. That's kind of on him.)

Poor Catullus, getting rejected by both women and men, left and right

3. Attis

So, rapidly, from sweet dream and free of madness/ Attis recollected his actions in his thoughts/ and saw with a clear heart what and where he had been/ turning again with passionate mind to the sea.

Nothing like the pain of the morning after, am I right?

In all seriousness, all of Attis is amazing. The language (even the translations, I sadly cannot appreciate the original), the imagery, the links to mythology, it's all so beautiful. It's also such a rich area for analysis - I've thought about it a lot, but I'm sure if barely scracthed the surface at this point.

I personally see it as an expression of the fear of emasculation that comes with being deeply obsessed with a female lover (as he was with Lesbia)? I cannot claim any expertise beside having read all of his work and knowing some of the context of his life + the Roman views on masculinity. I've also read a few opinions of people arguing for a possible trans reading, which is incredibly interesting as well.

4. C 9: Back from Spain: To Veranius

You’re back. O happy news for me!/ I’ll see you safe and sound and listen/ to your tales of Spanish places that you’ve done/ and tribes, as is your custom, and/ hang about your neck, and kiss/ your lovely mouth and eyes

I don't know, just something about him expressing such genuine joy about being reunited with his friend seems incredibly sweet. (Also introduces the idea of kissing someone on the eyes which. Um. Seems to be an ongoing thing for Catullus. Sure, you do you.)

5. C 64: Epithalamium for Peleus and Thetis

The Minoan girl goes on gazing at the distance/ with mournful eyes, like the statue of a Bacchante/ gazes, alas, and swells with great waves of sorrow

Again, I just love the whole poem. It is probably my favourite Catullus poem (along with C 50, but they have very different vibes). I find it fascinating that a male poet can empathise so much with the female perspective (which is a bit of an ongoing theme in his poetry). I cannot help but think that he must have personally related to Ariadne's pain, being rejected by his former lover - Lesbia - like she was by Theseus. It would certainly help to explain how he was able to portray her state of mind with such incredible depth and complexity.

I also adore the beauty of the language and the many references to Greek mythology of course.

[trucywright]

I think an Ariadne myth retelling should end like Catullus 64 and Ovid’s Heroides.

Ariadne, abandoned on the island, thinking her story is over. She will die on this solitary island and never even be buried. She’s cursed Theseus and sealed his fate but that’s all she can do.

And then she hears the sounds of Bacchus’ chorus. The sun is rising. She looks up and sees Bacchus walking in the distance. She snatches back her happy ending.

[girlcatullus]

ariadne should have pulled a gone girl on theseus

[olderthannetfic]

Seeing others get upset that you (and some other anons) don't like Captive Prince is so funny. It reminds me of how my friends and others generally who like BL are surprised when I say I don't like Yuri on Ice (paper thin main and side characters except Yurio, flimsy motivations [I can deal with this in high school or college-aged characters who are lost or finding themselves, not professional athletes who're almost 30 and competing at the Olympic level. Get a backbone/motivation beyond just some man you want to pick you], poor pacing, poor relationship development, fails as a sports anime, fails as a romance anime) and The Song Of Achilles (also paper thin [defanged main] characters, weird black-and-white anachronistic morals, not transgressive, nonsensical recontextualizing of myths, twee, nearly desecrates Catullus 64, makes the Iliad about boring uwu sad boys). And when they keep arguing in favor of x media I dislike, they're offended when I double down, and my mild dislike becomes stronger. To those, I say "It's not that deep. Lots of people just dislike things that you enjoy. Grow up. Or get better standards. I don't know."

--

[formulaocean]

hi! sorry if it's a bit of a random question but i wanted to ask, what are your thoughts on The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller, if you've read it?

Ah okay I have contrasting thoughts because it really is beautiful and has some quotes that I still think about years later, but I read it when I was also reading the Iliad and studying bits of it in Greek and some doesn’t gel for me!

So I like it but it also annoys me if that makes sense?

If you take it as a young adult love story, and one of the first of both the lgbt and retelling genres at that, it’s very very good but you’ve just got to accept it’s not similar from a classics pov. In all fairness it’s not a retelling of the Iliad but a love story with a younger target audience so maybe that’s on me 😅

The whatever our souls are made of quote kills me. The what has hector ever done to me foreshadowing finishes me off. Name one hero who was happy? Dead again. Them meeting in the afterlife after their ashes combine? Revives me just to kill me once more.

Her writing is so lyrical and although I think I prefer Circe in general, she really did write a beautiful book. It’s elegiac and mythological, heartbreaking and putting you right in a historical mindset with all her descriptions that are so vivid. Everyone knew the ending but she brought us along on such a way that we wished we didn’t. I’m quite hyped for her Persephone when it comes out!

This specific retelling so needed to be done because all the signs were there in the Iliad. In Ancient Greek art and texts it almost universally depicted them as lovers and it’s not seeing things- they are written as quite queer in the Iliad with Achilles having this beautiful description as a widow while mourning. The first time I watched Troy (not even going into the ending) I was horrified by them being cousins 😭

By making Patroclus “simpler” and in a role similar to Greek women as a homemaker and healer at the time, you get to gloss over the broader implications of the war and see Achilles with such a lovely fondness. Where so many other descriptions of him are so harsh and brutal that tender love really is the heart of the book and a refreshing take on him- I feel people forget he moodily strums on a lyre as well as fights. I do wish we had more of a richer world building though because there’s so much going on!

At the same time- that’s not Patroclus. Even as a kid he gave Achilles “wiser council” and he was just as tough too, second in fighting to Achilles amongst the Myrmidins and just as hungry for war. He’s described as being powerfully built, modest, wise, and before he’s struck down by Apollo, causing Hector to kill him, his aristeia had him single handedly slaying upwards of 50 people. It’s why Achilles trusts him with his armour.

I kind of wish we had Patroclus at least learn to fight in the book, or had him be tougher. Of course there are different types of strength but I don’t see why we couldn’t have Achilles appear softer through Patroclus’s eyes while keeping him in character, two scary people can still be gentle with each other! And as this is mainly a sports-semi-rpf tiny blog I will say we were robbed of jock for jock energy- give me flashbacks to them fighting together!

There’s also a complete glossing over of the female characters being slaves and here having a “brotherly” relationship where it is…not that. And I do think it’s a little bit of a tired trope that one man in a queer relationship has to take the more effeminate role but it was 2012 and aimed at young adults so I can’t blame it too much for either!

Thetis is brilliantly done though. Completely compelling as a terrifying ancient goddess who knows her son is doomed to die. Really reminds me of her in Catullus 64 which is about her wedding to Peleus and very foreshadowing heavy. And Odysseus too- love to hate that sneaky bastard.

Sorry for rambling anon 😭 I really hope you liked the book ❤️