#catelyn about brienne

[greywoe]

Brienne said, "I remember a woman... she came from some place across the narrow sea. I could not even say what language she sang in, but her voice was as lovely as she was. She had eyes the color of plums and her waist was so tiny my father could put his hands around it. His hands were almost as big as mine." She closed her long, thick fingers, as if to hide them. "Did you sing for your father?" Catelyn asked. Brienne shook her head, staring down at her trencher as if to find some answer in the gravy. "For Lord Renly?" The girl reddened. "Never, I... his fool, he made cruel japes sometimes, and I..." "Some day you must sing for me."

[eruherdiriel]

I don't think I can do justice to how the ACoK Catelyn III - Sansa III - Catelyn IV chapter sequence makes me feel but I want to ramble about it. It's like a hug around Sansa, who is beaten by the kingsguard in her chapter. Her mother cannot actually stop what is happening in the moment, nor does she know the specifics, but she does want Sansa (& Arya) out of KL. And just as Cat can't get to her daughters, she can't get Renly and Stannis to stop fighting in those chapters. The negotiations fail and then she watches Stannis's shadow kill Renly. There's so much in her storyline that is out of her control: Bran getting hurt, Ned dying, her father dying, Lysa's mental decline, Robb's choices as king, the fate of her daughters.

But. She does save Brienne at the end of Catelyn IV. This is a teenage girl she barely knows, serving a different king, and Catelyn saves her from likely death. All because she knows it's the right thing to do because Brienne did not kill Renly. There is no agenda to it in the moment, and yet Brienne goes on to dedicate herself to rescuing Sansa and Arya (& then Sansa again when she is not in KL) by bringing Jaime to KL. She hasn't yet but she could still succeed (& ironically has to get past a vengeful LSH to do it), and that is the closest Catelyn can come to being able to save one of her family members. She saved the knight who will save her daughters.

[melrosing]

do u ever forget that Brienne had to scrub Jaime down like a goddamn horse after they got out of that bath. the show ending with a pieta and the books like well this guy is still covered in shit so…..

[myheartburnsthere-too]

don't mind me, crying over book!brienne and her "I was nothing to you, why help me?" line to catelyn.

[atopvisenyashill]

arya: if there’s so much i must be can i still just be me the way i am?

sansa: can i trust in my own heart or am i just one part of some big plan?

[georgecostanzaatemysoup]

Jamie: *burns Cersei's note begging for his help*

Me:

[norringtondeservestheworld]

I got bored and I noticed that there are a lot of similarities between Game of Thrones’ characters and Detroit: Become Human’s characters and these are the two fandoms I am more active at the moment, so I made this. Enjoy.

Bonus Brienne and Simon because they are my favorites from each story and they have a lot in common and I couldn't add it all in one image

[girlfairie]

just read a redditor's analysis of their first time reading AGOT- they love sansa, catelyn, dany, arya, "somehow" respect cersei but HATE jaime with their whole soul. baby that jaime POV coming to hit you like a bus 💗

[inejstanaccount]

Do you ever think about how people judged and were cruel to Brienne her whole life and the most the people most important to Brienne (Renly, Catelyn, etc) did for her was let her pledge her service to them. And then Jaime comes along and looses a hand while trying to protect her and then jumps in a bear pit for her and then gives her a gift so priceless that the richest house in the country could not afford one, so priceless that I cannot even think of a modern comparison.

[ladystoneboobs]

so, one aspect of catelyn which i think is underrated (certainly the biggest adaptation loss which nobody talks about) is her, let's say superstitiousness, or better yet, let's call it genre-savviness, being one of the few adult characters open to magic and the supernatural in this fantasy world. we first meet her in the godswood, home of gods which are not truly hers, yet she is still very aware of their power. when she and ned talk of the deserter he killed, he hopes he won't have to go with the nw to deal with mance rayder, but she has even more fear of that idea bc there are worse things beyond the wall than just wildlings. ned scoffs and says she's been listening to old nan too much, but she's right. we already know from the prologue that she's right! and here she is, understanding the genre of their world better than her husband, who was actually born and spent his earliest years in this northern land of deep magic, listening to old nan's stories. same with the direwolves, where she was uncomfortable with them at first, but later believed in them as guardians from the old gods even after robb had lost his own faith. and once again, we know she's right even if she doesn't know the evidence to back up her instincts, bc summer and shaggydog did not fail bran and rickon and robb was almost certainly a warg like his brothers. (perhaps making it more fitting that she's the one brought back as a fantasy vengeance monster, not ned and robb, the most unbelieving dead starks.) and in her 2nd agot chapter, everyone focuses on her ambition in wanting ned to agree to the hand job (pun intended) and sansa's betrothal, and while she does recognize the value of their daughter being a future queen more than ned does, that's only her stated argument bc she thinks it's rational enough for ned to listen to. (if ambitious matchmaking were as important to her as to her father she never would have made those frey betrothals fandom loves to blame her for.) in her own head there's a deeper urge driving her. she keeps thinking of the dead direwolf with antlers in its throat, an omen which filled her with dread from the first she heard of it, before robert's arrival, and thinking of it again is what makes her desperate to convince ned not to refuse robert. she had to make him see. and really, she's not wrong, as jon snow would say. the dead direwolf was an omen of ned and robert getting each other killed. it's just one of those misread portents, with no way of knowing the danger to ned was in his loyalty to robert, not conflict with him. BUT the next time she's dealing with baratheons, she knows exactly what she's talking about. it's catelyn, not brienne, who sees the shadow slaying renly, and explains that it was stannis who did that through some dark magic. with no way of knowing how it was achieved and no prior expectation that such a thing were ever possible, she realizes with no hestitation that stannis was guilty and that his red witch was capable of pulling this off somehow. really, the only instinct of the supernatural she's wholly wrong about is her insistence that varys gathered his knowledge through some dark enchantment. however, though that might offend varys, given his own personal experience with a sorcerer, i'd say it's a reasonable assumption without knowing the dude had children moving through walls everywhere like oversized rodents. and imo it just shows she had a healthy respect and awe for varys's power which most other characters lack.

oh, oh, and let's not forget that she also believed in the curse of harrenhal, from her own childhood and the stories old nan told her kids. "and every house that held Harrenhal since had come to misfortune. Strong it might be, but it was a dark place, and cursed. 'I would not have Robb fight a battle in the shadow of that keep,' Catelyn admitted." sure, that wasn't enough to save robb, but he did not die from the curse of harrenhal. that doom was meant for his enemies from tywin lannister to roose bolton.

[branwinged]

i say this as a catelyn enjoyer, catelyn's hatred of jon is not particularly rational in the sense that it doesn't hinge on jon's own personal character. like some of it is borne out of wider prejudice regarding bastards (socially stigmatised as treacherous and grasping of their trueborn siblings' rights) of course, but the thing that hurts her most is what jon's presence in the household symbolically represents. and it's not the infidelity, it's the perpetual reminder of the disenfranchised position of women in their society and how little agency she truly has in her marriage and in the wider social sphere. the thing about catelyn's character is that she might be the conforming lady archetype, but she's also written to be very much aware of how disadvantaged women are in westeros.

"I might have been able to trade the Kingslayer for Father, but . . ." ". . . but not for the girls?" Her voice was icy quiet. "Girls are not important enough, are they?" Catelyn I, ACOK Is this my punishment for opposing him about Jon Snow? Or for being a woman, and worse, a mother? Catelyn V, ASOS “Father,” she said, “Father, I know what you did.” She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. “You made him take her,” she whispered. “Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully.” Catelyn I, ASOS Brienne looked at her with those blue and beautiful eyes. “As ladies die in childbed. No one sings songs about them.” “Children are a battle of a different sort.” Catelyn started across the yard. “A battle without banners or warhorns, but no less fierce. Catelyn VI, ACOK

^ these are not the words of someone who's content with her lot in life or has made perfect peace with the rules of westeros's feudal patriarchy. brienne and catelyn are both acknowledging the thankless role women are made to play. "no longer an innocent bride" / "wise in the ways of the world" has a certain misery to it, considering the topic at hand is hoster's abominable treatment of lysa for transgressing social norms. even a sentiment such as - "Pity filled Catelyn's heart. Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman?", is not coming from a place of scorn or thoughtlessness, but from knowing too well how cruelly their world treats women, how brienne's appearance would affect her marriage prospects.

“Our duty.” Catelyn’s face was drawn as she started across the yard. I have always done my duty, she thought. [...] I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned’s face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty. Catelyn VI, ACOK

there's such clear resignation here, this is not how you talk if you're proud to have done your duty, if you feel you were actually rewarded for having done it. and duty here means meeting the unforgiving expectations of westeros's feudal patriarchy. if sansa's chapters are about growing out of that conditioning by realising that there is no reward to be found here, then catelyn's chapters are about showing the personal cost of having lived your entire life internalising those ideals. her house words being 'family, duty, honor' is a very deliberate character choice.

so it's not just that ned cheated on her, but that he unanimously made the decision to install jon at their home and catelyn's feelings were allowed no say in the matter, that it happened even before she was able to step foot in winterfell with robb is another blow. she had just been exchanged as goods from one (dead) brother to another and she was supposed to be okay with all this, like the most natural thing in the world because her house words were drilled into her since childhood. but we know she wasn't. she stamped down that resentment out of duty, because he's her lord husband and she was to obey him, but that pain and the alienation for having done her duty was going somewhere. openly resenting her husband or her father is not a socially allowed option, so all that resentment gets unfairly taken out on jon, someone she has authority over. and i think identifying the major cause of that hatred as her frustrations with westoros's patriarchal ideals is important because that means knowing the truth of jon's parentage wouldn't have changed anything. that ned kept such a thing from her and again, unanimously made the decision to commit treason without consulting catelyn, is once again simply telling her that she has no control in this marriage, that her judgement is both unasked for and not valued.

[greenbloods]

the lady x sworn shield dynamic can take on many iterations, including as lovers (cersei/jaime), brother-sister (loras/margaery), mistress-attack dog (sansa/sandor, alicent/criston cole), or parent-child (catelyn/brienne), and often it's multiple at the same time, but first and foremost it must always be weird about it.

[rhaegars-cervix]

the gender theme is very present in ASOIAF, especially comments on the oppression of women in a patriarchal society and the constricting gender roles present in the world GRRM crafted. many characters embody this commentary, especially ones like sam tarly and brienne (you should read this essay if you haven't already, it's inspired many of the points i'll talk about ahead). i'm making a case that this is also done subtly with rhaegar targaryen, which lends very easily to a genderqueer, specifically transfeminine, reading of the character.

of course we have to piece things other characters tell us secondhand about rhaegar together, and even these accounts are not entirely trustworthy for he was a very private person. people didn't know him, not even his closest friends.

(asos, daenerys i)

rhaegar excelled in swordplay, but it's known this wasn't his true joy; this was the expectation the world had thrust upon him as the heir to the throne and the standard he tries to uphold since he read something in a book as a child, allegedly a prophecy. he actually loved his harp over his lance, a trait regarded in universe as feminine.

(asos, daenerys i)

(asos, daenerys iv)

(agot, catelyn v)

this not only paints rhaegar in a gender non-conforming light, but it shows how he puts the will of the prophecy above his own, becoming something he's not, a warrior, to fit the archetype. to be the prince of the prophecy means you must be a man:

(affc, samwell iv)

this changes for a while after rhaegar meets lyanna stark, a lady who allegedly disguised herself as a knight, bent on escaping the expectations society has of her. all of this could be a post by itself, but to me it's clear why rhaegar would get so fixated on her of all people.

at last, a small detail: the closest you could ever get to understanding rhaegar is by his songs. it's said even when he's singing of, say, a dead family member who ran away for love dancing with her ghosts in a hall of kings, it sounds like he's singing about himself, but with female pronouns. which could mean nothing.

(asos, daenerys iv)

(asos, epilogue)

[swordmaid]

the fact that there’s a canon rumour about jaime having a threesome with brienne and catelyn and the last known thing about him in adwd is that he ran off with brienne……….ok

[esther-dot]

Was gonna do a poll then realized that with how often this has been mischaracterized as show bs by the rest of the fandom, we might want to run through some of the book hints for Sansa being the girl in grey first. So…

The one thing we know about Sansa's future is that she will find her way to Winterfell. ASOS features a prophecy telling us so:

I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." (ASOS, Arya VIII) The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. [...] She picked up a broken branch and smashed the torn doll's head down on top of it, then pushed it down atop the shattered gatehouse of her snow castle. The servants looked aghast, but when Littlefinger saw what she'd done he laughed. "If the tales be true, that's not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell's walls." (ASOS, Sansa VII)

Doesn't make her the grey girl, but it’s fun that we’re told she’s going North via prophecy, and Jon is told a sister is coming North via prophecy. I’m sure it means nothing.

We have a quote which points to a reunion between Sansa and Jon by virtue of her moment of despair being a prelude for her wish coming true (there are no heroes/Edd, fetch me a block…wait a sec, that involves Jon too???):

Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise. (AFFC, Alayne II)

More & meta links under the cut (I kept it as short as possible, promise!)

Obviously, the reunion could happen after Jon has retaken Winterfell, except we have this line which indicates a Stark will be present for that:

Battles had been fought at Winterfell before, but never one without a Stark on one side or the other. (ADWD, Jon VII)

We also have breadcrumbs leading North for Sansa by @istumpysk :

"I never knew a wolf to run up a streambed for miles," said Reek. "A man might. If he knew he was being hunted, he might. But a wolf?" - Theon IV, ACOK x The Liddle took out a knife and whittled at a stick. "When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. - Bran II, ASOS x If Dontos and this northern girl helped murder our sweet king, it seems to me that they would want to put as many leagues as they could betwixt themselves and justice. Look for them in Oldtown, if you must, or across the narrow sea. Look for them in Dorne, or on the Wall. Look elsewhere. - Brienne II, AFFC x Or would she seek her own blood instead? Though all of her siblings had been slain, Brienne knew that Sansa still had an uncle and a bastard half brother on the Wall, serving in the Night's Watch. Another uncle, Edmure Tully, was a captive at the Twins, but his uncle Ser Brynden still held Riverrun. And Lady Catelyn's younger sister ruled the Vale. Blood calls to blood. Sansa might well have run to one of them. Which one, though? - Brienne II, AFFC) [link for much more + a map)

And most importantly, in the vision itself we have a hint that the girl is Sansa, as noted by @starwarsprincess1986

[link]

We even have a tentative travel timeline thanks to @aegor-bamfsteel [link]

Some fans believe Alys or Jeyne is the girl in grey, but neither girl’s path fits with Mel’s vision:

GRRM has the map for a reason, in order go along with the story and where everyone is at in the chapters. FArya is coiming from Stannis’ camp in Crofters’ Village, which is  located in the wolfswood west of Winterfell, on the west side of the kingsroad and on the wrong side of Long Lake. Whereas Alys Karstark was coming from Karhold, which is located on the east side of the North, but it’s no where near Long Lake. This makes neither girl the one Melisandre saw in the flames. [link]

That's a good argument that neither Jeyne nor Alys is who Mel saw, and paired with GRRM’s widely noted thing for the number three, it’s pretty compelling:

Then there’s the GRRM rule of 3s; who the characters think it is, who the audience thinks it is, and who it actually is that has been foreshadowed all along. Jon’s other sister he knows was in a forced marriage has barely been on his radar. by @aegor-bamfsteel [link]

Also, Sansa is Ned’s narrative heir which would explain why Martin would want to write her return North as an echo of her father’s journey home after the rebellion as detailed by @une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir [link]

Of course, we have parallels from Jon’s side too. As many fans have noted, Jon getting murdered when he’s wanting to save a sister can be read as a callback to Brandon, but Jon dealing with a prophecy that’s eating away at him makes for an interesting parallel to his father. In both instances, for Brandon and Rhaegar, it is not any girl, but a Stark girl who is central to the matter. In fact, Sansa has specific parallels with Lyanna, and if she is the girl in grey, it would mean she and Lyanna both flee from an unwanted marriage and meet with a Targ which interestingly enough allows the conversation that Jon’s story is having with pre-canon Targ and Stark men to continue. He might save his “sister” where Brandon could not, and where his father spirited the Stark girl far away to a place she ultimately died, Jon will return his Stark girl safely home.

[Elaboration on the Sansa and Lyanna parallels in this tag and in a recent post by @julibf ]

There’s also the succession issue which both Jon and Sansa’s story have prominently featured with LF wanting to use Sansa to claim the North and Stannis wanting to use Jon, and of course, both are significant in the debate about Robb’s will which will create a fun wrinkle:

There is a conflict between them too - until they learn that Bran and Rickon are alive they both are kinda heirs of Starks and Winterfell, both are ruler coded since AGOT and their political strengths complement each other's weaknesses. Moreover, both can support each other's claim. Sansa Stark while being legitimate heir in many lords eyes is still married to Lannister and everyone knows it and she is also a girl who doesn't know how to wage a war. On the other hand Jon Snow even with Stark blood printed on his Ned Stark (who is still beloved in the North) face is still a bastard and can't interfere with claim of legitimate heirs (given that Robb's will is still unknown). One of them on his/her own can raise a lot of questions but two can make a decent claim. by @asoiaf-essays-collector [link]

All of this set up is wasted if they are not both feasible options (in the North) for the Northern Lords to back, allowing the political drama to unfold. (And then imagine when Bran and/or Rickon shows up alive!)

I’d argue this bit hints that the girl in grey will not only make an appearance, but will have real significance to Jon’s story beyond Alys’ brief appearance:

[link]

There’s also the the possibility of Jon post assassination being a play on “the Stranger,” and Sansa a “silent sister” to consider:

[link]

And I can’t do a recap of this theory without acknowledging The Meta. Written all the way back in 2013, this post predicted that Jon and Sansa would not only reunite but reunite first of all the Starks:

If one believes in dramatic irony, it is that thoughtlessness in regards to each other....that gives them the best chances of being the first (if not only) Starks to reunite. [link]

So, is Sansa the girl in grey?

Feel free to add on additional arguments and/or your favorite bits of evidence. I’ll post a poll in a few days!

[chickren]

Which in-universe character do you think have an idea about Jaime’s feelings towards Brienne? It’s a bit interesting that this hasn’t come up yet in the books, given how quickly the threesome rumor and Jaime Catelyn and Brienne is circulating in-universe haha. I think Qyburn definitely suspects since he referred to Brienne as “your Maid of Tarth” to Jaime. Red Ronnet probably suspects something after the punch. I sort of wondered if Loras had any suspicion given how much Jaime spoke in defense of Brienne. Anyone else you could think of, and do you think this rumor would show up in the books?

We don’t talk a lot about how far spread Brienne and Jaime’s story is in-universe, but we should, so I’m gonna hijack this ask for a sec and do that.

These dummies are already legendary before we get to the good stuff. Obviously, kingslayer Jaime is (in)famous already—not going to go into the depth and breadth of his fame. But Renly(king)slayer Brienne is pretty infamous herself by Storm. The Renly story is apparently one of the first things Cleos tells Jaime about her. Then Loras very publicly confronts Brienne in King’s Landing about Renly’s death, so Jaime has her arrested (ostensibly on a murder charge.) This is before we get to Feast and find out even hedge knights have heard of Brienne’s supposed Renlyslaying.

More interesting than their individual infamy, however, is Jaime and Brienne’s new joint lore. Roose implies Brienne is even more infamous as a traitor to a second king for being part of the plot to free Jaime. We also get wind in Storm that the threesome rumors have spread far and wide in the Riverlands. But it is not until we get to Feast that we realize that the Bear Pit™ incident has also gone viral. Red Ronnet knows about the bear pit, and while at Harrenhal goes to see the pit itself specifically because of what he’s heard about the story. Then, of course, there is the fact that Jaime is believed to have simply run off somewhere with Brienne—which is an absolutely salacious final detail.

Considering the quasi-medieval world of ASoIaF and the amount of pretty important earth-shattering news about Westeros falling apart around their ears, it’s sort of hilarious that people find time to gossip enough about Jaime and Brienne’s story that word of it has traveled so far so fast.

But back to your question, as I feel you imply, it wouldn’t be difficult for people to believe Brienne fell in love with Jaime, but who might be in a position to suspect Jaime’s feelings for her?

It’s clear that the bear pit story is not enough to make people think Jaime has feelings for Brienne. Otherwise, Ronnet wouldn’t have been dumb enough to run his mouth in front of Jaime. However, one must wonder if people generally have started to suspect he has feelings after he leaves Pennytree with her in Dance. He saves her, then runs off with her? Sounds romantic.

Qyburn, as you mentioned, has spent time around the two of them. It’s possible he picked up a vibe. Beyond that, he’s witness to Jaime’s mini-freakout after he finds out what Vargo intends to do with Brienne, then he’s witness to his massive freakout after the weirwoood dream. However, Qyburn also spent the whole journey from Harrenhal to King’s Landing with them, and to hear Jaime tell it, he and Brienne were not at the top of their relationship game during this portion of their trip. So that might cool any suspicions Qyburn has about them. The only thing that could strongly counteract that is the fact that Qyburn knows Cersei sent the old “I love you” x3 letter to Jaime, which Jaime then ignored in favor of running off with Brienne.

Ronnet? I mean. If someone else had seen all that, they’d understand Jaime has serious feelings for her. But Ronnet’s emotional intelligence seems low. Obviously, he knows Jaime feels some sort of attachment to Brienne. I would question if he understands it’s romantic.

Loras is a self-centered heartbroken teenage superstar who is either embroiled in some elaborate conspiracy pretending to be injured at Dragonstone, or was actually gravely injured at Dragonstone, and his beloved sister has just been arrested for a capital offense. Even if he marginally had a whiff of suspicion about Jaime and Brienne, he’s not making room in his mind to contemplate anyone else’s love life. So no, I don’t think Loras knows.

If there’s a wildcard person who could possibly be in a position to have heard something incriminating from Jaime himself, I’d say it would be Ilyn Payne. Chatterbox Jaime’s been using the guy like a confessional box, so it’s within the realm of feasibility that George could create a scene in Winds where Ilyn Payne raises his eyebrows at the mention of Brienne in a way that would indicate to readers that he knows something. I think it’s unlikely, but it is floating in the ether of technical possibility. (Or lol, it might get a mention in the event of an Ilyn prologue pov.)

So, to answer your question, from the precise moment where we leave them in Dance, I don’t think there is a single person who could definitively raise their hand and go, “Oh, btw? Jaime’s in love with that lady.” This is likely to change fast in Winds, especially if someone like Hyle is witness to their interactions.

The circumstantial evidence for their relationship by the end of Dance, though? lmao. Damning. The blind items? Flying. The top comment: he’s hitting that.

tl;dr - Between the rampant threesome rumors, the viral bear pit story, and the tale of Jaime running off with Brienne, the general public is probably more suspicious of Jaime’s feelings for Brienne than the man himself.