#canon platonic wincest

[lambmotifz]

i love the idea of sam and dean getting sexual in s2-3, it makes sense considering the amount of sexual tension between them in s2 and they get even closer in s3, but realistically i don’t see them having sex until after swan song / after sam got his soul back

[wif-san]

I saw this post -> https://nancylou444.tumblr.com/post/750919899322400768 and I agree with everything said in response to the screenshot, and wanted to make a separate post to summarize, point out, and emphasize somethings anyways, so this is fine:

Spn technically IS a queer love story, just not a romantic one (queer-platonic), and spn focusing on family and specifically Sam and Dean didn't leave room for ANY romance, queer or straight.

Yes, Dean COULD have chosen that if he had wanted to, but he never did, because that wasn't what HE wanted, nor the story of Spn.

Spn IS aero/ace rep, because Sam and Dean are BY CHOICE queer-platonic life partners, which DOES exclude ANY and ALL long-term romantic relationships, hence why NONE of them ever lasted. (Also refer to points 1&2)

The only actor and writer that at all leaned into it were MC and Bobo the assclown. Literally every other writer was abundantly clear and forthright about it never being seriously discussed in the writers room and about the fact that it was never going to be canon. No other actor ever actually contradicted that either, and Jensen and Jared were always very clear and up front about the non-canon nature of d3stiel and that it was never going to change.

Sam and Dean fighting for each other and choosing each other above all else was LITERALLY the story of Spn 😆🤣 just because they didn't live in a vacuum and cared to some extent about other people and therefore not just exclusively each other, doesn't change that fact.

TLDR: We aren't denying anything about the canon, nor trying to manipulate the canon to be about what we want, that's hellers. WE are LITERALLY just pointing out the actual canon itself; what was actually on screen, what was actually said straight from the characters' mouths, the characters' ACTUAL choices that they made for themselves.

Example: we didn't decide that Sam and Dean didn't have room for any long-term romantic relationships while they were in each other's lives, Sam and Dean decided that FOR THEMSELVES, we just enjoyed it, and are pointing it out to people who clearly missed that fact.

[inbredbrotherhood]

Weirdcest is delicious for a number of reasons but most importantly is the fact that Sam and Dean could be told to their face that they’re too close and that their relationship is unhealthy and while they’d probably acknowledge it, they would not change it. They don’t see it as ‘too weird’ or ‘too close’, to them, the relationship is just right and everyone else is the weirdo for thinking they’re looking at each other like that.

[hellhoundlair]

hiiiii happy wincest wednesday!! what episode do you think has the most canonical wincest?

NEVER FORGET!!!

"canonical wincest" will always be hard to point to, because of course in canon their relationship is platonic (the sheer intensity of their love nonwithstanding.) HOWEVER... the way sex and violence plays with the boundary of familial love and desire is fucking ..... idk Its fucking!

[catsconflictscopicsandchamomile]

These Fuckers

[talking about my favorite characters] okay so THESE two come in a bonded pair and if i think about them too hard i start taking poison damage

[shipsandmyths]

lately I've come across a couple people both here and on tiktok that are now getting into supernatural and basically going "woah you destiel shippers were not kidding, I always thought you were probably exaggerating". And it's like we definetely were not, but I also wonder where this reaction comes from and I think I've got it.

We all know what fandom is, especially if we're talking about non-canon ships. We take the subtext and make it textual, we live in the crevices of stolen glances and romantic paralels. But most of the time there's another (straight) canon ship that the writers can use to queerbait us, being like "see? this is who he really wants". Take BBC Merlin, for example: the devotion and closeness between Merlin and Arthur is obvious, but it's easy to point at Arthur's feelings for Gwen and say "see? this is what's real. you're reading too much into it".

Destiel doesn't have one. The very (mysoginistic) nature of the show means neither Dean nor Cas have any significant relationships the writers could point to and show us the "truth" so there is nothing to distract from what's obviously happening on our screens. There is no great romantic storyline to tell us "this is who he really wants" so they are all that it's left and what's between them becomes undeniable. What's even worse, the other main relationship in the show is as platonic as you can get because Sam and Dean are related (let's ignore the existence of wincest please and thank you), so the difference between Dean's relationship with Sam and his relationship with Cas is so stark, so obvious, that is hard to even begin to compare them and try to paint them both with the same brush.

I know I'm just rambling but would love to hear your thoughts on it.

[h3llh0undz]

i am under the very firm belief that destiel was NEVER supposed to happen. everything that ever pandered to destiel was just because of the fans. it was to make the shippers happy, not because of what the characters were supposed to be. (and NO, cas telling dean he loves him doesnt make it canon. one sided i can agree, but its not canon. “dean wanted to say it back!” NO HE DIDNT?) but samdean was always ALWAYS supposed to be endgame. platonically or otherwise, this is THEIR show. (i dont really like people calling cas the third main character too. he wasnt created with the intention of being important. BUT i do like him as a character. i AM glad he stuck around, but people really over-inflate it all. thats all a conversation for a different day though). since the very beginning, sam and dean have been insane for each other. and that never changed. theyre SOULMATES for fucks sake. there is infinitely more evidence for wincest than any other ship in the show could ever conceive. people calling sam a third wheel to destiel is so fucking delusional imo. salmondean is always the duo and everyone else is secondary to them. they always leave anyone they do get involved with for each other. ship destiel if you want, its cute, but understand it is NOT real. your perceptions of characters do not affect the show.

[flowersintheimpala69]

Wincest subtext is so funny and if u rlly start looking u see it EVERYWHERE. Like wym each time they were separated they immediately find a romantic partner as if they’re replacing the other while they’re apart (dean with Lisa, Sam with ruby and Amelia)

The siren in season 4 where the siren is suppose to take form of what the victim most desires and for dean it takes form of basically Sam if he was more adoring of dean (which could be platonic but. Like all the other siren mirages were about sexual attraction)

The OBSESSION dean seems to have with Sam’s sex life in season 1. Like that’s not normal Dean. Why r u so obsessed with who ur bro is dicking down.

The way Dean left Lisa (the woman he loves and sorta built a life with) cuz Sam came back???

They’re semi-canonically/implied SOULMATES which could be platonic but like. cmon.

The finale isn’t even subtext like they share a heaven?? Their happy conclusion is being together cuz that’s what they want more than anything??? Dean’s final death scene where they press their heads to eachother. Like. Guys. Ur incest is showing.

^out of context the way dean looks at Sam here is so obviously charged with adoration that goes beyond brotherly.

This could all be seen as like a rlly strong platonic connection and I’m not saying u have to ship wincest but I just get a laugh out of the fact the writers inadvertently made strong incest undertones and then had an “incest wins” ending

[hippychick006]

Go vote!

AO3 Top Relationships Bracket- Round 3

This poll is a celebration of fandom history; we're aware that there are certain issues with many of the listed pairings and sources, but they are a part of that history. Please do not take this as an endorsement, and refrain from harassment.

[colepitz]

I think the reason I prefer wincest spaces over destiel spaces even though I do enjoy both ships boils down to an average difference in approach when it comes to canon v fanon. Cesties tend to operate in a realm of suspended disbelief. Most just do not care if it’s a canon thing, if it’s widely accepted to be true, or even if it’s liked by the majority of fans. They just enjoy the ship for the expansion that it is and what text is given in show. Ofc they do care about canon wincest, but it’s just not the Focus because we know the brothers and their relationship (romantic or not) will always be the core of spn. Hellers on the other hand have this incessant need to Prove that their ship is real—that Dean and cas are canonically in a reciprocal, non-platonic love, and that it’s an undeniable Fact Of Canon. It’s unfathomable how anyone could watch the show and not see what they see. It’s less fun in my opinion

[supernaturalkickparty]

The fact that wincest shippers have more canon evidence than most popular ships in most fandoms haunts... I'm happy for you guys it's just fucking insane

From a shipper standpoint or just someone who enjoyed the show for the platonic canon relationship the brothers had, it's insane and amazing we have 15 seasons worth of sweet sweet canon.

[dailywincestspam]

#red meat supremacy (via @fandom-hoarder)

its called soulmatism #seriously these two (via @sapnokiduniyaisalwaysbetter)

they're soulmates!! #sometimes this show just got it so right #there was so much shit writing…but damn #sometimes they knocked it out the park #fav episode (via @deepabidinglove)

they be vibing off of one another so hard from a distance nobody soulmates like them #red meat supremacy (via @moonlightdistractions)

#i have so many words about all the ways that red meat is shot #and how unbelievably romantic it is #in a very classical sense #and so different (via @flashbulb-memory)

#it's The Best #that's what it is (via @cinnamonanddean)

#they are fucking crazy (via @problematicgrape)

#when you kill yourself to save your brother from death and bargain for his life because THATS NORMAL (via @supernaturalisahorrorshow)

#i just rewatched red meat and yeah #it really is just like that (via @schmirius)

#they don't want us to ship them #than don't do this fucking crazy aesthetic shit (via @pranzill)

#the amount of feral i was when i watched this ep live #like what the fuckkk #i think it was so good bc there were so few good eps in the later seasons 😩 (via @boykingsqueen)

#bitch they're soulmates <3 (via @brotherwives)

what in the romeo and juliet i'll-feel-your-pain-as-you-do-mine lover shit is this

[dyed-red]

one thing i love about supernatural (and about wincest but it's endemic to the canon) is that it doesn't matter how high the stakes are, the actual stakes are honestly, exceptionally low, but we are so. so. so fucking invested.

what i mean is that - the true stakes of the show are always and forever sam and dean's relationship. are they good? are they in alignment? where do they stand and where will they stand after this?

yes the world is ending, yes people are dying, yes angels are falling and yes that ups the ante superficially. but the real stakes are sam and dean's relationship. it's small scale. it means nothing in the grand scheme of everything and yet it means more than anything else in the entire universe, the entire multiverse by the end of the series. literally just. these two brothers.

it's honestly just really impressive to me because i can't honestly think of another fictional duo (platonic, romantic, or anything in between) who carry a story so entirely on the ups and downs of their relationship, and for whom the story and the consequences and the apocalyptic scale all really pale in comparison to "will these two make it out of this okay?" (and okay can be dead! dead is fine! so long as they're together!)

the epic love story and all that <3

[815superwolf]

why is jensen ackles so toxic?

i have been a supernatural fan for over ten years and i have known for a while that jensen has never been a fan of destiel, which would be completely fine if he didn't always react uncomfortable and downright disgusted every time someone mentions it and / or the possibility of dean being queer. i have seen him become very defensive and even hostile when asked questions about these things at conventions. to this day jensen (& jared) STILL vehemently call castiel's confession "platonic" and "brotherly" while the writers, showrunners and misha explicitly called it a romantic confession of love.

my problem with jensen's behaviour is that it seems to be rooted in very toxic masculinity and the fragility of it. he has called emotional writing "unmanly" and "effeminate" and "something dean would never say to another man"; he was glad that dean didn't share many scenes with castiel in season 9; he desperately wanted destiel "to go away" and something else that really irks me: so many times when destiel was talked about, he brought up wincest, as if that is in any way the same. he seems to associate queerness with unmanliness, weakness and something to be uncomfortable about.

i can understand that destiel extremists have insulted his wife, insinuated ridiculous things happened between actors etc but this is no excuse for his downright homophobic comments and behaviour. he can also imagine dean however he wants and i know he thinks he understands dean better than anyone but it's so sad to me how much he seems to limit dean in who he could be TO OTHER PEOPLE. who does it harm if a bunch of bi people see themselves in him and his behaviour? i thought jensen understood just how much dean hid from everyone. it makes me sad that he seems to want to forbid other people from interpreting dean differently than he does.

he should really take some time to reflect if dean winchester's non-canon sexuality is really worth coming across homophobic for.

EDIT: i'm not saying jensen can't have his opinion on dean and his sexuality or anything like that, i just wish he didn't react with disgust at other opinions.

[eisforeidolon]

MISHA IS SUPERNATURAL BIGGEST MISTAKE.

CASTIEL COULD HAVE BEEN AN INTERESTING CHARACTER, IF HE HAD BEEN PLAYED BY A TALENTED AND PROFESSIONAL ACTOR. ESPECIALLY PROFESSIONAL AND SERIOUS.

WE DON'T DESERVE MISHA'S LIES AND QUEERBAITING.

BUT I THINK THAT MISHA ONLY TALENTS ARE LYING TO PEOPLE AND QUEERBAITING HIS DESTIEL FANS FOR MONEY. THIS ARE THE ONLY THINGS HE KNOWS HOW TO DO.

DESTIEL ISN'T CANON. JENSEN SAID THAT SO MANY TIMES.

HE EVEN SAID THAT WHEN HE WAS ASKED ABOUT "THE CONFESSION 'S RESOLUTION".

HE SAID THAT THERE WAS NOTHING TO BE RESOLVED. BECAUSE EVEN IF THE "CONFESSION " WAS ROMANTIC, FOR DEAN NOTHING WOULD CHANGE.

DEAN ISN'T IN LOVE WITH CASTIEL. HE ADDRESSES CASTIEL AS DEAN 'S FRIEND AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE CLOSEST TO HIM. BUT THAT'S IT.

JENSEN NEVER ADDRESSES CASTIEL AS DEAN'S POTENTIAL LOVE INTEREST.

JENSEN (AND JARED) SAID MANY TIMES THAT SUPERNATURAL IS ABOUT SAM AND DEAN AND THEIR DEEP BOND AND UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.

15X20 IS THE PROOF OF THAT LOVE. WINCEST IS MORE CANON THAN DESTIEL WILL EVER BE.

I'M TALKING ABOUT PLATONIC LOVE OF COURSE.

I SHIP WINCEST BUT UNLIKE THE HELLERS I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT IS CANON AND WHAT IS JUST A FANTASY.

15x20 SHOWS TO THE VIEWER THE ESSENCE OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SAM AND DEAN.

SPOILER FOR 15X20.

SPOILER FOR 15X20

SPOLER FOR 15X20

DEAN DIES, BUT EVEN IN HIS LAST MOMENTS HE COMMITS HIMSELF TO ONLY LOVE SAM. HE SAYS HE LOVES HIM AND THAT IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THEM TOGETHER AGAINST THE WORLD.

" IT'ALWAYS BEEN YOU... AND ME". THAT'S WHAT DEAN SAYS.

THE PAUSE IN THAT PHRASE, THE WAY THEY EMBRACE, THE FOREHEAD TOUCH. EVERYTHING IN THE SCENE IS POINTING TO WHO IS WATCHING THAT DEAN GREATEST LOVE IS SAM.

THIS IS A CONFESSION. PLATONIC AND SO BEAUTIFUL. BETTER THAN ANY OTHER "ROMANTIC" CONFESSION THAT I EVER SEEN OR I EVER HEARD.

END SPOILER FOR 15X20.

OF COUSE DEAN IS ALSO SAM GREATEST LOVE, BUT I WANTED TO GIVE MY ATTENTION TO DEAN 'S BEHAVIOUR TOWARDS SAM VS DEAN BEHAVIOUR TOWARD CASTIEL IN THEIR LAST SCENE TOGETHER. THERE IS NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TWO.

WE ALL KNOW THAT SUPERNATURAL WAS ALWAYS ABOUT SAM AND DEAN AND THAT A LOVE STORY CAN BE ABOUT TWO BROTHER WHO SAVED EACH OTHER AND FOUGHT MONSTERS, EVIL CREATURES, DEMONS, ANGELS, THE DEVIL AND GOD FOR STAYING WITH EACH OTHER.

OF COURSE WE CANNOT SAY SAM AND DEAN WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT JARED AND JENSEN. THEIR ACTING, THEIR CHEMISTRY INSIDE THE SHOW AND OUTSIDE TOO, THEIR KINDNESS, IS WHAT MAKES SUPERNATURAL A SHOW THAT CHANGED MY LIFE.

I ALWAYS GET EMOTIONAL ABOUT THIS SHOW. THAT'S WHY I CAN'T STAND PEOPLE LIKE MISHA WHO ALWAYS SAYS SHIT ABOUT THE SHOW AND THE ACTORS ( JARED AND JENSEN)

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING TO MY RANT, SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH, IT ISN'T MY FIRST LANGUAGE, AND I HOPE THAT I DIDN'T ANNOY YOU OR BOTHERED YOU.

MAY LOVE AND KINDNESS ALWAYS FIND YOU.

I have to agree. Also, your English is fine and I definitely understand the need to rant about all this nonsense sometimes, that's why I've got this blog! <3

I do actually feel like Misha was a perfectly serviceable actor way back at the beginning. I even get why they decided to keep him around when he proved popular with the fandom. It was indeed proven a mistake in so, so many ways as time went on, though.

Yeah, first and most egregious is the kind of person Misha turned out to be - or at least turned into after so many years of fans blowing smoke up his ass. A bitter, entitled, ungrateful, lazy backstabber who is perfectly comfortable telling blatantly obvious and contradictory self-serving lies and nonsense. Whether that's about the ship or his relative importance to the show directly, whether that's skeevy sexual comments about Jensen/Dean, whether that's trying to paint Jared as some kind of evil bully that abused him. He keeps proving again and again there is no bar he won't limbo under.

Next is I think his performance on the show and what his continued presence on the show resulted in plot-wise from the writers. He was fine at first when he was just playing a non-human mysterious figure that only appeared now and then and had a major role in the whole structure of the apocalypse. He even had a pretty good arc leading up to the Leviathans. The problem was they kept him around as a "fan favorite" after that when they really didn't have anything for him to do but eat up screen time to give J2 time off. Would we have really gotten so much bad, circular angel politics if there wasn't a need to give Castiel something to do to keep Misha employed? I personally doubt it. Even worse than that, though? As time went on, Misha seemed to recognize that his only relevance was baiting shippers and wasting time and leaned into turning Castiel into the type of character he gets written as in so much bad D/C fanfic - a pathetic mostly human woobie who is completely useless for anything but the projection of bizarre teen romance fantasies that don't make any damn sense. Which culminated in that bizarre ambiguous queerbait he and Bobo the Clown cooked up for Castiel's exit. Which doesn't even touch his later seasons' presumable attempts at acting where his choices for Lucifer!Castiel & AU!Castiel & Empty!Castiel were all ... entirely made up of bad accents and gurning. It wasn't about any of those character's motivations or places in the narrative, it was about the laziest possible attempt to differentiate them from his normal character. Even in latter season's SPN, which IMNSHO had so, so many issues dragging things down, Misha's lack of interest in anything but the size of his paychecks and con earnings played into some of the worst.

Which brings us to D/C and the whole supposedly canon thing. Canon is literally what happened. D/C didn't happen, it's that simple. Castiel rambled some ambiguous bullshit about love and got sucked into the Empty while Dean looked bewildered and sad at him from several feet away. Misha can make up as many stories about what the character was totally thinking and how he was totally coming back in the finale and queerbaiting about what will totes happen in a revival, but not a word of it actually makes what Castiel said "I'm IN love with you". Nor does it magically manifest a reciprocation from Dean. What doesn't happen on screen but actors or TPTB say about the canon is often called Word of God. Which yes, Misha's does not outweigh everything Jensen and Jared and various showrunners have clearly said. Jensen might have gotten less confrontational about shooting it down over the years, but the underlying message hasn't changed. Meanwhile, not only do the details of Misha's stories constantly change, but the general message of his claims has flip flopped so many times. The show was about the brothers, no actually the brothers and the angel! He joked about wincest, no actually he'd never heard of it! He didn't want to say what that scene meant, no actually feel free to attack anyone who says it wasn't a homosexual declaration of love! There's more, but Misha's not worth the effort of looking them up.

As you say, at the end of the day, anyone watching the totality of the show and seeing how it ended? It's very obvious the center of the story was a platonic love story. A complicated one, granted, but Sam and Dean so many times made it very clear that it was them ... and everyone else. Except in the same way that acknowledging that doesn't serve the hellers agenda in demanding a continuation must center their ship so they can finally have visuals to go with their fanfic, acknowledging that doesn't serve Misha's agenda of fleecing them out of money for telling them it will happen for as long as he can get away with it.

[spnbrainrotawoooga]

i will never not be normal over Sam being dean’s collete. It truly is interesting how even from a strictly platonic stand point how sam and deans relationship is so unconventional and different from a normal from a regular sibling relationship. They really do occupy so many roles for each other: best friends, spouses, brothers, parent and child even. Like Wincest or not their relationship is hella out of the norm. But because they are in canon just brothers most people don’t really go ahead and examine just how twisted up they are for each other. Like I’m always just blown away that man the cw really got a way for a 15 year codependent qpr between Sam and Dean.