#canon macdennis discourse

[dennisboobs]

im gonna let you guys in on a little secret.

the more macden shippers shit on other pairings, the more multishippers like me will move towards their secondary and/or tertiary pairings. if i can't go into the charden tag without seeing a post intentionally tagged with multiple ships and trying to spark discourse between them by saying people who ship "rarepairs" are stupid and delusional, first of all, that's an instant fucking block, but like. I'm not going to feel like talking about macdennis when it feels like there's such an obnoxious pressure on you to fall into line and accept the widely preached and accepted fanon canon.

I love macden too. and I would post about and enjoy it a lot more if y'all didn't make it feel like we had to pick a side. just because you prefer the big popular ship, that doesn't make you smarter, or more correct than anyone who ships charden or charmac, it just means you have different preferences. i think macden has the biggest chance of being an actual couple on the show, and obviously mac and dennis are both gay and queer respectively, but if i want to ship charden, why can't i do that too? fandom is supposed to be fun, and it's supposed to be enjoyable, i don't want to have to fight to prove that this ship that i personally see working and enjoy the dynamics of is a "valid ship" when i am fully aware that they're not going to be canon that's kind of the point, and why i prefer it. and for the love of god... if you hc a pairing as platonic, that is perfectly fine. that's how i see charmac myself, but that is your view and your problem, not the shippers'. just block the tag so you don't have to see it if it bothers you that much.

and i don't like several of the other common rarepairs, but have any of you ever seen me talking shit on charmac or chardee shippers? no. stay in your lane and let people live. i'm sick of seeing people acting superior over a fucking it's always sunny in philadelphia ship.

[dennistakesamentalhealthday]

redoing my intro teehee

i'm jasper i'm 23 and my pronouns are he/him

im autistic and a faggot

professional dennis takes a mental health day defender

im a writer on the side so i have a lot of thoughts about sunny meta and i think reaching and overanalysing is cool and fun and sexy. i dont care about being "right" about my analysis either because doesnt matter im still cool and fun and sexy

radfems terfs bigots fascists etc are not welcome here and also i block liberally

i would rather minors did not follow or interact with me but i can't fully control that so i'll just say if you're a minor: i am an adult and this is not a space that will always be suitable for you. sunny is an adult show and i don't want to talk about it with people who are not adults. if i don't follow back/interact with you it's likely because you are a minor or i don't know your age (not that people have to disclose it! but i prefer being safe). i also do make nsfw posts from time to time and if i find out you are a minor and you interact with them i WILL block you.

this blog is mainly an outlet for when the sunny hyperfixation hits and will reflect that. it is not criticism free but i don't think it's always the appropriate space for sunny criticism and i think tumblr is an awful format for discourse and discussions anyway. so like just because i don't always publicly engage w the show critically doesn't mean i don't. there's also aspects of the show i don't talk about here/usually ignore bc they are triggering topics for me. that doesn't mean im not considerate of them

adding to the last bit: i know they are present in the show but please don't talk about eating disorders or csa on my posts. just because they are big parts of especially dennis' character does not mean they are not sensitive and triggering topics

i woobify dennis because it's fun lol it's a very intricate and specific dance

im a macdennis "truther" in a very casual way LOL don't ask me if i think it's going canon or not. i don't know and honestly i dont care about that. i think it's just fun to see what they get up to. i think it's fun to feed into my delusions when the show decides to make them share a bed. i dont really have any stakes or expectations for canon. i also love charden and deestress. peace and love on planet earth

i will unfollow people very liberally because my dash is for me and i will unfollow someone sometimes even if i like them as a person. i also don't care about being mutuals. so like don't think you can't interact with me because we're not mutuals but also don't take it personally if i unfollow you (but also feel free to unfollow me back)

dennis has cat ears btw glenn howerton told me this

[gaydennisreynolds]

I was just gonna rb some posts about this but I am bone-chillingly nervous about it so i need to have like a whole breakdown in ur inbox. I don’t know if rcg understand how deeply invested some of us are in macdennis and that a decent amount of people see it as something deeper than a “haha mac wants to bang him” joke. I really really really hope if they do make macden canon they recognize that they’ve ALREADY DONE “this is what I thought I wanted but now I do not want it at all” (Charlie/waitress) AND “we bang once and decide we are never doing that again” (Charlie/Dee) and they’ve beaten the shit out of the “dennis hates mac and points out that even if he was queer he wouldn’t like mac” joke. Literally begging praying screaming at rcg to not be fucking idiots and let us just have this one thing please PLEASE

ok I totally forgot about the charlie/waitress AND the charlie/dee plots if i’m being honest but u guys are right, they probably won't re-do those ideas macdennis style since they don’t like to be repetitive. so we’re probably safe from that outcome!

Something notable about the writing style of Sunny (to great comedic effect) is that, unless it would be funny, they cut away before the consequence. It’s funny to see the characters get themselves in deep shit through stupidity and ego--not so funny to see them crying through their one phone call from jail or getting thrown out of a store or getting yelled at by their mom. I think that’s really important to keep in mind as we consider what they might do with the seeds of MacDennis that they’ve been planting for so long. If they give it to us, it might be in the series finale or in some other context where they can set it up, deliver, and cut away before the fallout/consequences.

To address the rest of your ask: the devil and god are raging inside me and God is like, RCG are clearly very smart!  They mean everything they say! Comedy is important, but they want to tell a compelling story too! versus The Devil who is like bro RCG are only in it for the comedy of it all and the story and the meaning is secondary. I think the reality is somewhere in the middle; they oscillate between these truths depending on season and who is in the writers room.

Will we get good canon macdennis, that lives up to everything they built it to be? It all depends on if they feel like it would be funny, sustainable, or say something different than what they’ve already said. It’s hard to gloss over just how much time and effort they’ve expended into setting it up--I feel like it’s going somewhere...but whether that destination is one we would like is not known at this time. I feel like in service of our own happiness we should all try and collectively assume that macdennis found dead in Philadelphia until we see them kiss with tongue on screen.

[robcharlieglenn]

i’m coming out and saying it:

i do not ship macdennis. i tried SOOO hard to be in to it. i really did. like i even tried writing a fucking fic around those two and i cannot say i enjoy their pairing at all. i understand that rcg are hinting towards it and at this point i’m only looking forward to it because i wanna see if they have big enough balls to make dennis queer. that is IT. literally any other pairing in the show makes me happy (charmac, chardee, charmacden, even a bit of charden) but holy shit when it’s just dennis and mac i just cannot seem to enjoy the thought of those two characters together. they do not vibe well. both dennis and mac are abusive towards each other and it just makes so much more fucking sense for other pairings to happen canonically. i understand macdennis shippers are about to come for my throat but idc!! (also if you are in the same boat as me and enjoy fanfiction , i HIGHLY recommended reading all of @/psychedelic_iridescent (charden) and @/sunflowersocialist (charmacden, charmac)’s fics on ao3. some of the best writers i have come across in a long time) thank you for coming to my ted talk ily. (i would also loveee to have discourse over this so if u want to discuss hit my line ((SEE EDIT BELOW))

EDIT: okay let me defend myself!! i was kinda h!gh on pain meds when I wrote this last night so I didn't word everything perfectly,, i understand that any pairing of the show would be abus!ve. they are all terrible terrible people and while I understand it makes the most sense for just mac and dennis to be together, i just don't really like it?? idk. it's more of a personal preference than anything. my justification is that charmac would be cute and makes sense bc its a life long best friends to lovers type of thing, chardee makes sense because they had chemistry up until season 10 and in my mind if any two people in the gang were going to hook up, it would be dee and charlie. don't get me wrong, if they make macdennis canon i won't be upset about it, i just think that the writing of the past few seasons has made the idea of mac and dennis being in a fulfilling, committed relationship seem futile. I've said this since my first watch of the show, i HATE how they've been writing mac since he came out in s13. i think if they wrote his character a tad better and hopefully have dennis be less fucking mean and angry towards mac all the time it would play better in my eyes. but again!! people are allowed to ship anyone they want!! and enjoy the show however they want!! soz if i made anyone upset but I'm glad my posts are getting a bit more traction in the sunny fandom

[gubler-garbage]

I really appreciate your thoughts on that subject!! I was curious about what you meant by somewhat toxic shipping culture, if you're comfortable talking about it? It surprised me but I feel like it makes some sense tbh!

okay so i wanna preface this by saying I have never been deeply involved in the shipping aspect of sunny fandom, I am very much an outsider looking in so take this with a grain of salt. I also want to say this isn't a call out or whatever like its fuckin tumblr shipping its really not that deep, do you, your not hurting anyone.

Having said all of that I personally feel like the fandom that has developed around sunny on tumblr and specifically the growth of macdennis as a ship has distorted the way some fans view the show and interpret its content and the creators. I think this specifically applies to macdennis truthers, like I don't want to burst anyones bubble here but this idea that the creators have this sort of longcon and overarching narrative to the show and its characters is very strange to me. I'm not saying macdennis is impossible or even that I wouldn't like it to happen I just think that when you start ascribing such weight to small and somewhat incidental comments from the creators and moments from the show it starts to distort what is really being said and and creates such a narrow view of the show that what the creators are really trying to say is wilfully ignored for the sake of shipping wish fulfilment. In my opinion, a prime example of this is the way the fandom has interpreted "time's up for the gang". It's really strange to me that such an emphasis has been placed on charlie's rape accusation against Dee, to the point where the ship has been vilified and blacklisted by many (a completely valid and fair response, that isn't my complaint at all and if shipping them makes you uncomfortable that is more than understandable), but when dennis monologues about how mac's continued advances towards him make him uncomfortable the fandom has somewhat decided this was an instant of Megan Ganz "going rogue" or have opted to ignore it entirely. Its this sort of view of the writing process that i really have an issue with. Personally I feel it has given the fandom license to decide what is and isnt canon based entirely around whos name is in the lead writing credit which has somewhat served as a shield for rcg for some of the more questionable or gross moments, especially in later seasons. I have seen people blame Megan Ganz entirely and solely for the blackface in "Dee Day" as if as head writers, producers, creators and actors rcg did not approve and possibly even suggest this addition to the episode.

This also applies to the scene in "Mac and Dennis Manhunters" in which Mac says to Dennis that he has sexually assaulted him but that moment has never been treated with the same gravity as in "time's up" because it's from an older episode I presume. which is another narrative I've seen regarding rcg in that they have at some point had a magical leftist transformation that absolves them of criticism for early season content for the sake of retconning non macden compliant content.

This last one kind of applies to the whole fandom to a certain degree but I've just most prominently seen it with macden ship discourse is the propensity to villainise rob, glenn or charlie in order to boost up another, and generally the one being boosted will be the one saying or doing something macden related. Specifically with people attempting to claim that the lack of macden content in season 13-14 was entirely due to the absence of glenn in the writers room, which for one isnt even true and presents a fundamental misunderstanding of how a show is even written to begin with. But outside of any of that it creates a narrative that while one of them may be saying something backwards or ignorant, the silence of the others indicates their disagreement. It's an overall propensity to take anything vague or silent from them as an invitation to insert personal perspective which isn't present in the work itself. This to me is really clear in the fact that the fandom's opinion on any of them can be traced back pretty directly to the amount they post on social media. Rob who has generally the largest presence gets the most flack, Glenn then comes in second and Charlie's basically non existence has kept him out of alot of fandom discourse purely because his silence allows for people to presume his perspective or opinion. I'm not saying they don't deserve the flack they get but the idea that Rob is a disgusting person for buying an nft and whatever else while glenn is some sort of angel is based purely on the sort of parasocial bonds that form when people spend so much time being hyper invested in a piece of media. We don't know these people, they're just a bunch of rich, white, old guys who make a show we like. I personally don't really understand the surprise of people realising they aren't some sort of radical leftist collective, to me there's no point where they have ever given that sort of indication except in the fan interpretations of miniscule interactions and statements they've made that are just vague enough to support their argument.

Rcg have somewhat accidentally managed to do the same magic trick as their show, in remaining vague enough in their statements and generally silent in online discourse people have been able to ascribe their own beliefs to them and project personalities onto them that don't actually exist.

This post is already so long and I haven't really touched on the other side of this coin which is the complete separation of art from the artist, attempting to discredit rcg and the rest of the writing team from the show and attempting to love the show, while completely demonising the creators. I understand where these sorts of fans are coming from but I think it's really dismissive of the genuine nuance that sunny presents as a really complex program in terms of its place in pop culture. It also feels like an attempt to continue watching the show without having to deconstruct any of its harmful aspects because you can just blanket dismiss the creators as awful people. I also see a pretty severe double standard with this sort of stuff where people will call out sunny but only if its shipping related, like that merch drop with the "i love you like mac loves dennis" tee and people trying to call out fx for queerbaiting, like first of all thats straight up stupid, like im sorry i can't even be diplomatic on that, its the dumbest shit i've ever heard, touch grass. But when it comes to discussing problematic aspects of the show that first of all, actually exist and also don't involve anything to do with macden or even lgbt issues its crickets because its pretty clear y'all dont care about genuinely harmful content, you just care about your ship. Not to sound like an apologist but i do genuinely think that the show has had alot of interesting things to say and generally speaking has never attempted to be actively hurtful, although their execution leaves alot to be desired at times. I think to a certain degree sunny tumblr is in a similar place to sunny reddit but in the opposite direction, wanting the show to be something it never was in the first place.

[emberphantom]

the only thing i will say re: macdennis will they/wont’t they go canon discourse is this: i lived through Destiel so whatever baffoonery RCG does, they can’t hurt me. I’m stronger than them. 

[ashwayssunny]

19 and 25 for Sunny for the asks!!

thank u so much for sending!!!

19. What is the one thing you hate most about your fandom?

hmmmmmmmmmm i mean i could say some useless discourse but 1) i think that’s a cheap answer and 2) most of the sunny discourse i’ve been around for, especially the recent stuff involving “dee day,” is totally valid and i am 100% behind that conversation. so i guess with sunny it’s not the fandom, it’s perhaps the “””core audience””” of the show who take everything the gang says at face value and refuse to believe that they’re unreliable narrators and have nuance. they are SO nuanced and i love that abt them

25. How would you end XXX/Would you change the ending of XXX?

oh boy oh man.... well obviously macdennis would get married (though it seems that could be rcg’s agenda too) but i want them to have a real jim-and-pam-office-wedding style episode bc it would make my heart so happy. oh and i would delete time’s up from canon completely!

[globrights]

hi all. some of you people really need to stop policing what macdennis shippers post, and being really antagonistic about the things we do, e.g. macdennis meta. first off, let me preface this by the fact that i do not think that rcg is queerbaiting, or homophobic because macdennis isn’t canon yet. neither will i see rcg as homophobic queerbaiters should macdennis, god forbid, never become canon. 

however, there has been a very substantial and obvious change in the way dennis treats mac after he came out, and after being assured that mac won’t be discriminated against or alienated for his sexuality (in any permanent, lasting way), YET seeing DENNIS in particular treating him this way, becoming more distant such that mac has observed this, while being assured by charlie that dennis has known mac was gay forever, so it has to be Something Else... what am i supposed to think?

i like to think of myself as a person with some modicum of patience, and of course i’m willing to accept that narratives, timelines, and plots i predicted won’t necessarily go the way i think they will. will that stop me from trying to analyze things? will that stop me from trying to form an opinion on what i think will happen next? no! and that shouldn’t be a problem, to anyone, because that’s how i choose to process the media i consume! and it probably will differ from the way many people choose to take in iasip, but that’s... okay. we all care about the characters to differing degrees, we all care about certain dynamics on the show to differing degrees! so yes, sometimes people will write posts that focus on the macdennis relationship, and barely allude to or completely fail to mention the other characters (dee, charlie, frank). and so? who cares? that is that person’s choice! you don’t have to ship macdennis, you don’t have to think that their relationship will eventually be consummated in some way. you can make your own posts about the parts of the show that you care about! and guess what? i won’t bother you for it! because you caring about something i might not necessarily care about as much doesn’t hurt me in any way! and yes, discourse can be annoying, but sometimes people’s initial reactions to an episode can be highly emotional, we are predisposed to react more strongly to something we care about, and while that might be a mistake in retrospect... we are human. we make mistakes. we say things we want to take back, we change our minds, we become more civil after the fact. you not enjoying bearing witness to that is no reason to attack or put us down!! especially if we didn’t hate on the show or rcg in the process (please recall that if you genuinely think rcg is being homophobic for not making macdennis canon i am not speaking on your behalf) 

and if... if we all turn out to be wrong, if we find out that it will never be revealed (in an explicit manner) that dennis has feelings for mac? of course i’m going to be disappointed. but it’s not because i feel queerbaited it’s going to be because dennis hating mac so much more after coming out would have served virtually no purpose. if rcg was trying to satirize something through dennis’ hatred, say, how some straight people who do not claim to homophobic treat their gay friends coming out? ...what would be the point? how would that serve a better purpose than dennis also having repressed his feelings? how would that help the show’s narrative? because to the audience, it’s just going to look like dennis is being mean to mac for no good reason, no good FUNNY reason (as far as i’m concerned, no one truly finds dennis being mean to mac exceptionally funny). And as Charlie Day once said himself: “Basically I think if you make something funny, it’s in good taste, if it’s unfunny, it’s in bad taste.” make of that what you will

[caroline-in-hr]

@adrianicsea‘s post reminded me of something from the gang’s self-help book that I wanted to talk about, especially if we can now start considering it a canonical extension of the show.

it sticks out to me in a really curious way how mac phrases that last line on page 23. it clearly sounds like things dennis has already said in the show (’x of a thousand y’ showed up in ‘dee gives birth’ and ‘the gang misses the boat’, just off the top of my head) - so if it’s phrased in character, it’s no stretch of the imagination to assume its identity is valid as well.

which interests me.

it’s a grandiose declaration, and I’m sure no one will find me at fault for imagining dennis getting a little shouty if he ever did say something like that. I’m imagining it here as dennis coming off less desperately passionate and more egregiously offended, like, ‘how dare [mac] question my undying love and loyalty for [him]? how dArE?!’ - maybe not so on the nose about it, but you get the idea. while it’s not quite the honest and true declaration of love one might root for, if anything, the fact that the statement mirrored dennis’ overwrought and affronted mode of speech makes me believe it all the more. until rcg show me otherwise, I’m never gonna see dennis as the kind of guy who can willingly issue honest, vulnerable declarations of romantic love - but that doesn’t mean the feelings ultimately behind them can’t ever exist. whether dennis can personally acknowledge those feelings, or deal with them in a healthy manner, or literally anything else, is another story - I’m not jumping into the pool of dennis discourse here, so for now just run with me on this one.

his reaction on the next page adds to this. he doesn’t deny it - dude straight up walks the fuck out. he’s not having this conversation - matter-of-fact, he’s not having any conversation, he fucking peaces and leaves it at that. again, my own questionable characterization here, but I see this as support for what mac said to be true, because I can’t see dennis as someone wanting to voluntarily open himself up and admit to what I’m guessing he sees as a demonstrable level of weakness (if you go with toxic masculinity’s good ol’ ‘showing emotion shows weakness’ standby, at least). shit, you can’t just admit that you love a guy with the fury of a thousand suns in front of people. especially people you know. especially your goddamn sister. (all right, I’m exaggerating a little here, but you get the point.) so, leave. mac would hammer the point home if he tried to deny it, anyway. the safest option, as the gang has demonstrated time and time again, is to not deal with your pressing personal issues at all. it’s no surprise dennis chose to walk out.

I also find it interesting how mac knew, or at least made an educated guess, that it would make him walk out. mac’s not the smartest book in the library, but he’s a bit more perceptive than others give him credit for, and that he knew just what to throw back at dennis to get him to leave immediately makes me curious. especially because as an exclamation, it’s actually pretty apropos - and also furiously corrects dee’s assumption that dennis has only ever loved himself (what, we all forgot mr. tibbs so soon?).

this isn’t meant to fan the flames of the macdennis conspiracy at all, and I say that as a pretty ardent fan of the ship. my point here is that I appreciate the way in which the book expresses itself here in regards to how mac and dennis may feel about each other. on my own, I’m never going to interpret them as a perfect relationship, should a non-platonic and romantic relationship ever grow between them. they’re far from perfect people. but that doesn’t preclude them from having feelings - and that’s essentially what I got out of these few lines.

good god I hope this made some sense

tl;dr they’re fucked up people who still give a shit about each other what more do you want