#by having the duffers lie to us about a handful of very specific things

[chirpsythismorning]

Concept: ST5 promo slowly revealing things over the next year that basically indicates they lied about a bunch of things.

First this new character announcement, despite saying there would be no new characters (the first lie). Next thing you know there’s gonna be some cryptic promo about a birthday, and everyone will be confused like WTF?? Then they’ll do an interview and laugh audibly over a question about the birthday debacle and be like ‘you guys actually believed we don’t rewatch our show??’… Then we’ll get something that indicates Mike was lying in his monologue, with even just the most subtle side joke about it…

Aka Friends don’t lie coming full circle with the creators @ their audience in real time 😭

[beepboop358]

Anti-Byler Argument Refuttals

Although I discussed all of this in my Byler Proof master slides post, I wanted to do a separate post specifically just refutting the most common anti-byler arguments.

1. "Mike and El's relationship is too developed" and "They have been through too much together to break up now!"

This is probably the thing I hear the most when people argue that Byler will never happen. The weirdest part of this argument is that people assume that they will never drift apart, and that they will never ever break up, as if we didn't just see them drift apart, break up, and not officially get back together in S3? Yes, they have both been through a significant amount of trauma, but their relationship is not as developed as people think it is, they barely even know each other really. They spent a week together in S1, then El was gone for a year. Mike and El don't reunite until the very end of S2, probably a few days after halloween. If we work out the timeline between Halloween of 1984 and July 4th of 1985 in S3, that's 246 days, so it's actually less than a full year they have spent together, getting to know each other.

The “development” people argue that Mike and El have just doesn't stand up. Mike and El do not have intimate conversations, their conversations are incredibly awkward, and they just kiss frequently in the beginning of S3 before they break up. That's not development. Hopper even refers to their constant kissing as "not normal and not healthy." Mike couldn't tell El he loves her to her face, which is a parallel to the failed relationship of Stancy where Nancy couldn't tell Steve she loved him, and we later find out it's because she doesn't, which all happens during the blank makes you crazy scene that is extremely similar to Robin's coming out scene. And yes, Mike and El have endured a lot of trauma together, but so has the rest of the group and people don't seem to use this argument the same way with the other couples, or between the friendships. History doesn't determine the future if there's no feelings involved, things can always change. This is idea of staying in a relationship where there is no real love but there is history/benefits is hinted at in S3 when Mike dresses almost identically to both of his parents.

2. "Look at how much Mike cares for El! They're in love!"

No, they're not, and how they treat each other proves that they're not. I firmly believe neither Mike nor El is seriously, romantically in love with each other.

If Mike was really deeply, romantically in love with El, why did he treat her like he did in S3? If he really cares about her that much, why did he wait for Lucas to guide him at all times in matters regarding his relationship with El, instead of just taking initiative, but he does take initiative with Will? Why can't her apologize to her? Why wasn't Mike more upset about El dumping him? Why couldn't he tell El he loves her to her face? Why did he consistently lie to her throughout the whole show? Why did he stop calling her in S2? Why did he give up and say she was dead, but never gave up on Will? Why did he scream in her face in S1? And no - it isn't because he's just shy or awkward. Mike doesn't act like he is truly in love with El because he isn't. He is projecting his feelings for Will onto El, and he is deeply in denial about his sexuality due to his internalized homophobia and hasn't fully processed how he feels about Will throughout the series (up until the ending of S3). And why does Mike have such an odd reaction to El saying she loves him if he does love her? If he loves her that should be exactly what he wants to hear, so why does he look so confused and scared? And why doesn't he just say it back right then?

El isn't seriously, romantically in love with Mike. They meet in S1, and he immediately takes her in, saving her life. He looks out for her, and actually cares if she is okay, and no one has ever done that for her before. El was abused her whole childhood until Mike lets her live in his basement. He was the first person to treat her like a human being, and show her compassion, which she has never experienced before. It makes total sense that she would cling to their relationship like a security blanket. Mike is an emotional attachment for El. He makes her feel safe, because of how he saved her life previously. El has very limited knowledge of love, life, friendship, relationships, and social behaviors since she was locked in a lab for over a decade of her life, she was never truly exposed to these concepts like the other kids in the party were. Everything El thinks she knows about love she learns from watching soap opera's alone in Hopper's cabin. Of course her perception of what romantic love is, is warped. If El was seriously romantically in love with Mike, why was their break-up no big deal to her? Why was she smiling, laughing and looking at pictures of boys with Max right after she supposedly dumped the love of her life? Why did she not seem even the slightest bit upset about it the entire season?

If they're both seriously in love, then why are their interactions so awkward to watch and why does it feel so unnatural and forced? Why don’t Mileven’s interactions feel romantic? The official released scripts on 8flix describe several Mileven scenes as "awkward". It's no coincidence that detail was included in the script.

3. "But they already have Robin"

I mean this comment basically means that sense the show already has one confirmed lgbtq+ character, there can't possibly be any others. What?! There isn't a "one gay character limit per TV show". This comment really bothers me because it reeks of homophobia. If you don't ship Byler that's fine, but refusing to even explore the possibility there could be more than one lgtbq+ character in a TV show just because one already exists? Yeah no. Queer people existed in the 80's, definitely more than just one, so capping out the amount of queer characters in the show is just icky.

Also, Robin was not originally written to be a gay character. It was decided during the filming process that Robin should be a lesbian, because Maya Hawke and Joe Keery were not getting romantic vibes between their characters. Just because the show introduced a new gay character in S3, it does not mean the queercoding of Will and Mike is erased to make room for Robin, and keep Mileven together. Making Robin a lesbian, does not cancel out Mike and Will being gay/liking each other, and the show's future plans for byler.

4. "Mike's not gay."

Does this seem straight to you?

Giving your girlfriend a drawing of your male best friend, that was drawn by him, but telling her it's your drawing so she'll hang it up on the wall you coincidentally face while you make out with her, to remind you of him.

Taking your girlfriends hands off of you while you're making out with her, and keeping your hands folded in your lap away from her.

Only being able to apologize to said male best friend and being more emotionally invested in that relationship than your relationship with your girlfriend.

Mike is the only other person besides Will pictured in close up shots with rainbow and fruit imagery.

Even the die-hard Mileven fans have to admit that's more than a little coincidental, and if we know anything about the Duffer brothers, it's that they love incorporating intricate details in their show to reveal things about the characters/plot.

If you want more examples, some images, or just a more in-depth analysis of byler throughout the series, I suggest you check out my Byler Proof master slides :)

[kaypeace21]

Coincidences? (Or foreshadowing of  romantic endings?)

color me delusion over “ pointing out meaningless coincidences” but I still can’t get over the tv references most likely hinting about certain couples not being endgame. 

Sorry, i just don’t think it’s a coincidence that El in s2 watches ‘all my children’ where she mimics  Erica Kane who (in the ep she is watching) rushes into a relationship/elopement with a writer named Mike Roy, after a traumatic experience ( and the 2 end up  not being endgame ). And the relationship gets messy and involves stalking .

 Then in s3, Joyce watches Cheers (”rescue me”),  and Jopper is  compared to Dianne and fraiser. Diane says as joyce is listening to the tv “He had a couple of sips of Chianti tonight and asked me to marry him.” . At dinner Hopper orders a chianti while being stood up by Joyce. And Dianne and Frasier don’t marry and are also not endgame, cause Dianne stands him up at the alter. The other ep of cheers she watches in s3 (was in the Bob/joyce flashback) , and was called “ the rebound part 2″ in reference to Fraiser (aka Hopper) being the rebound. He’s just a rebound to Bob-why she’s thinking of Bob after Hopper asked her out.

Then Hopper in s3 also watches a magnum pi rerun from 1980-  the 2 ep pilot is called “don’t eat the snow in Hawaii”. Magnum ( solving crime with his colorful Hawaiian shirts, similar to Hopper) kisses Alice who he has a history with. Alice promises to come back so they can be together (like Joyce with Enzo’s)-but it’s a lie and she never shows up again in the series and they aren’t endgame either . Also, when Joyce in ep 8 accepts the date- Hopper says he can’t do so at a certain time because he and El watch Miami Vice. The main cop in that also has a will-they wont they relationship (for several seasons with a female detective who was also a main character (like Joyce- aka ‘detective Byers’).  AND THEY ALSO WERE NOT ENDGAME. ”Gina had an on-again, off-again relationship with Crockett, who was on the rebound after divorcing his wife, Caroline. The relationship faded out as Gina realized they mainly got together when one or both needed someone. Crockett was very protective of Gina, and had some jealousy when Gina was involved in relationships with other people …but was the first one to be there for her when things went wrong.”

-Also, In s2 Hopper angrily turns off cheers (Ep : ‘Sam turns the other cheek’). Causing  jopper to (maybe?) also be compared to Sam and Diane from cheers too. Who have a long ‘will they won’t they’ relationship for more than 5 seasons (and used to date). And are also not endgame.The ep that plays in s3 that Joyce watches - has Diane say that Sam abuses her and  mentions how they constantly argue (just like s3) but she says she can’t stay away because she loves him. A guy hearing this says “if you ever get tired of him and want a normal quiet life, think of me.” And this is also at the same time she’s reminiscing about being with such a guy- Bob (while watching the show). It pretty much reflects what Murray said about jopper. Hopper reminds her of a “bad relationship”(Lonnie)- but she can’t help wanting to hook up with Hopper.  Despite “wanting to settle down with a nice guy (like bob).” Sam even was an alcoholic ex baseball player (Like Lonnie forcing Will to play/having beer cans everywhere) and Dianne having mental health issues (like Joyce).

Glen and Les Charles (just like the Duffers were brothers who created a show -cheers) . Their explanation about why Dianne and Sam didn’t end up together despite all the seasons of ‘will they won’t they ‘ echos jopper’s dynamic to a T . And I believe the Duffers are emulating Sam/Dianne and these fellow bro-writers.“Sam & Diane were so different. Their relationship (for comic and dramatic purposes) was fraught with conflict. Most of our time was spent devising new, funny, and fresh complications for them. Projecting forward, I believe they would driven each other insane had they gone off hand-in-hand – each with the best intentions, but ending with restraining orders. “

Pretty much. the moral of sam & diane’s story according to the Charles brothers was ‘there may be someone in your life you long for but deep down in your heart of hearts you know they’re wrong for you.’ And i think the duffers are using this inspiration from a fellow brother writing team (from the 80s) in regards to Jopper.

 Then in regards to Lumax. Max and Lucas wear shirts referencing the couple from that 70s show. Max -is donna the feminist, tomboy, red-head, who doesn’t take sh*t. What’s interesting is lucas wears one of eric’s shirts from when they’re broken up and he’s fliritng with other girls- and earlier in the season Max called Lucas ‘Don juan’ (a name for a player- so it’s probably foreshadowing for s4.)

Max is also paralleled to 2 film characters Lucas doesn’t like- Michael meyers & Winston. Lucas: “ I specifically didn’t agree to Winston…nobody wants to be Winston, man.” Mike: “what’s wrong with Winston?”Lucas: He joined the team super late.Mike: yeah , but he’s still cool.Max being cool and joining the party late probably means she’s supposed to be Winston, right? it’s like how Lucas and dustin in s1 dissed el and said she was like Michael Myers. Cue max in her Michael Myers mask

- Also, the tv parallel of El (in s2) mimicking Erica Kane and pretending to be with a fictional Mike Roy. Also parallels Karen/ Billy. In s2, before she meets him she’s reading a romance book that has a guy that resembles Billy on the cover. The Duffers even mentioned they changed the cover to show the resemblance between Billy and the fictional book character. And we see Karen reading the sequel in s3 before Billy appears. Both El and Karen don’t/didn’t love Mike or Billy- they just projected onto them fictional characters they were infatuated with.Max also is said to do something similar- as the costume designers have Lucas dress up like “Max’s crush”- the karate kid (to impress her) and “be like him”.

I mean maybe I am “crazy” but this seems more like overt foreshadowing about these pairings not being endgame.  I could be wrong but I really do believe the Duffers throw in details to foreshadow and allude to things occurring in the story. In a video (7:41) the Duffers mention how they had El in s2 watch Frankenstein on tv to indicate her emotionally state in the cabin feeling “cut off from the world” and “like a monster”. So I don’t think it’s a stretch-when they’ve already admitted what their character watches on tv pertains to something regarding that specific character . ( So why can’t what a character watches on tv (or read) also foreshadow them not ending up with a particular person?)

Then you have the Stalking elements...

Lumax is paralleled to mileven and jancy which have stalking elements, specifically stalking their future partner (lucas being called a ‘stalker’ for stalking Max, el spying on mike and saying “I make my own rules “ -ignoring his discomfort , Jonathan taking pics of nancy unbeknownst to her- although he apologized ) . And although, not as direct of a parallel as the first 3- Hopper spies on mileven kissing  and eavesdrops on Joyce’s move. At the snowball, Lumax and mileven danced to ‘every breath you take’- a song about a bad break up and a stalker ex . The writer of the song also has said many times “it’s NOT a love song.” The duffers obviously knew that. Lumax also danced to it and Lucas was called a ‘stalker’ before they go to the dance floor- to emphasize this point. El also stalked Mike in s2 (all that stuff milevens found romantic- El watching him without him knowing. Mike says he was not ok with it in s3). And in s3 when he said not to do that  she just says ‘i make my own rules’.

* lumax also danced to ‘time after time’ which is also a song about a breakup. And, Max in s2 when  arguing with Lucas’ says “ you guys act like you want me to be your friend but then you just treat me like garbage” (paralleling mileven when El said mike treated her “like garbage” in s3 , before she dumps Mike.)

You can read about more of these “coincidences” or what I’d like to think are purposeful parallels HERE. Warning there’s a lot of parallels.

[comfortablynumbonthepuzzle]

Mike/Will Season 2, Episode 2: A Shot-By-Shot Analysis

Hi everyone! I know it’s a little late, but here’s the second installment of my Shot-by-shot analysis of Will & Mike’s friendship in season 2, to celebrate ST’s renewal for season 3! 

If you haven’t, check out my post about Will Byers’ sexual identity, which you can read here. It’s by no means a comprehensive analysis, but it’s a relevant precursor to this series. Note that it was written before I’d heard about the stranger things bible clip, which basically confirms it, which you can read here.

If you’re just now discovering this, read part one of the series here. Give it a reblog if you’re so inclined, distribution keeps the work alive :)

Please no negativity or homophobia. I welcome commentary but keep it respectful. 

And so, we begin with episode 2. This one was pretty fun to do. Let’s begin!

1. Will’s room, morning

In this scene, Joyce finds Will’s drawings, and worries he’s had another episode. Will lies when pressed, saying the sketches are meant to accompany a story he’s writing.

This scene is important for a number of reasons, though primarily because we know Will doesn’t normally lie. The basic premise of that first exchange between Joyce and Hopper in season one is that Will does not lie, cheat, or otherwise deceive, so Joyce is able to register the sinister implications of his disappearance even when others don’t. We also see in that episode that Will is unable to lie to Mike about losing in Dungeons and Dragons. That scene between Will and Mike is one of the few scenes we’re given of Will independent of his supernatural trauma and the only one that’s not a flashback, indicating that honesty, or at least integrity, is meant to be a core part of Will’s personality. (It’s worth noting that Will is also repeatedly identified as ‘good at hiding’, which I think is an interesting contrast to his being honest, as well as a metaphor for his sexual identity and possibly a subtextual hint, but that’s another post).

That Will lies to Joyce is an indicator of the extent to which he wants to avoid what we know are the consequences of disclosing his ‘episodes’. For example, he’s pulled out of school and socially ostracized. He’s alienated from his classmates and friends. He’s observed and tested on by doctors who in large part fail to recognize his humanity. He’s robbed of his privacy and allowed no real sense of autonomy or independence. He’s offered no substantial hope of recovery, as doctors are seemingly unable to diagnose or treat him meaningfully. And his episodes are framed, and treated, as a pathology, which likely affects his self-image profoundly.

And beyond the personal and social ramifications of disclosing his episodes, there’s the very real matter of the episodes themselves. Will, whether he recognizes it at this point in the series or not, is facing a very serious, very dangerous threat, and I imagine there’s a part of him that is desperate to believe his episodes are psychosomatic. (We see this play out later on when Will takes Bob’s misguided advice and tries to excise the shadow monster verbally).

And so Will lies.

This demonstrates to us the extent to which his time in the upside down has changed him and his relationships, just as it has changed Mike. I wrote in my last post that Mike’s fundamental character traits change after the events of season 1, and though we see less of this in Will, I think the same is true for him. I also wrote that Mike seems to be his best, true self only with Will. Given that Will tells Mike (and only Mike) the truth about the shadow monster in the “crazy together” scene, it would appear that Will is his best/true self with Mike.

2. Bike/School scene(s)

In this scene, Mike, Dustin and Lucas ride up to the school in their ghostbuster costumes, and are shortly joined by Will. Mike and Lucas begin an argument almost immediately, because both have dressed as Peter Venkman (Bill Murray’s lead character).

The Mike/Lucas relationship is really interesting. It’s worth noting they’re both competing to represent Venkman, who is essentially the leader of the group. I think it’s a fitting argument for describing their relationship, and echoes the conflicts they had in season 1.

While we see less of it in season two, Mike and Lucas clash frequently, and it makes sense. They’re two sides of the same coin: both are leaders and feel very passionately about their friends and relationships, as well as the right course of action in dealing with problems that arise. Both are powerful/fiery personalities, a bit stubborn, a bit sarcastic, and a bit self-righteous. Both are mellowed somewhat by the other boys in the group. Will is a quiet complement to the rambunctiousness of the rest of the party, while Dustin is genuinely good-natured, sweet, and functions as a kind of dopey comic relief. They even out the sometimes fiery temperaments of Lucas and Mike, both occasionally playing mediator between the two. Dustin does so in season one by orchestrating an elaborate apology between them, while Will, to an admittedly lesser extent, tries to pacify them in this scene by suggesting there can be “two Venkmans.”

I think this is relevant firstly because it (to me) makes sense that two fiery personalities might naturally lead to divisions where each passionate person is paired with someone less intense (ie: Lucas/Dustin and Mike/Will) and also because the parallels between Mike and Lucas (including their skepticism of the others’ love interests) could (MAYBE) hint at a possible love triangle with Mike, Will, Eleven, considering that Dustin and Lucas are in one with Max. (But again I'm really not too sold on the idea of a love triangle.) 

What’s interesting about this Ghostbusters-specific conflict is that it highlights how the personalities of Venkman, Stanz, and Egon (or, parts of them) complement those of Mike, Lucas, Dustin and Will. The selection of who is which Ghostbuster is absolutely a conscious decision by the Duffers, but we also learn that the boys themselves selected which character they wanted to represent. It’s interesting to imagine the boys watching this movie and identifying with certain characters, etc.

Stanz, like Dustin, is the goofy comic relief. Lucas and Mike are both Venkman, because they’re both passionate leaders and (kind of) anti-heroes. Will, like Spengler, is an incredibly smart scientist, who expresses no interest in women, even when they express interest in him. I think this part is very important. Ghostbusters is full of overt sexually charged moments: Venkman has a heterosexual romantic storyline, and there’s a prolonged scene where Stanz has a weird sexual dream involving a female ghost (honestly, what?). Spengler, on the other hand, not only does not have a female love interest, but dismisses, several times, a woman who’s clearly interested in him. Spengler’s apparent lack of interest in women is a conscious contrast to Venkman and Stanz (though more Venkman), who are preoccupied wholly with sex. It’s meant to be a part of his personality.

Will, unlike Mike, Dustin and Lucas, expresses no interest in women either. It makes complete sense to me that a) the Duffers would liken him to Spengler at least partially for this reason, and b) that in a movie that frequently depicts straight sexuality, Will would feel drawn to his character. 

Also, this may seem like reading too much into it, but the boys’ costumes are obviously conscious choices. Lucas and Dustin’s are identical, they look store bought, while Mike’s and Will’s are not. We know that Joyce made Will’s, because we saw her doing it. Not sure what this means about anything, but it’s interesting to look at, considering that costume design is a VERY VERY conscious effort. Read an article about it here.

This visual was first evident to me because Mike and Will walk next to each other, and Dustin and Lucas walk next to each other. Also worth noting that dustin and Lucas have lockers next to each other, and it seems like Mike and Will have theirs elsewhere.  

3. Trick or treating

When they come out of the house in loch Nora, Will and mike are walking together while Dustin and Lucas walk with Max.

Will is filming Mike using Bob’s camera. Mike’s clearly mad because Max has come along, even more so that she’s come along without his approval. He asks Will if he agreed to her being invited, and when Will responds that he didn’t think Mike would mind, Mike tells Will he “should’ve checked with [him] first” and that “[Max] is ruining the best night of the year.” He then walks away, leaving Will alone, visibly upset at having angered Mike.

This scene again reinforces, pretty boldly, that Mike and Will are a pair. That not only do they consult each other before doing things, they expect that the other person affirms and approves a decision before it’s made. They’re a unit.

4. Shadow Monster

When Will is again suddenly transplanted to the Upside Down, he calls for Mike, and only Mike, repeatedly. 

Now, this analysis operates under the basic assumption that everything is intentional. This scene in particular reminds me of the one between Will and Jonathan in the first episode, where Will criticizes his friends and family for babying him, and implicates Joyce, Dustin and Lucas but avoids Mike. Of course, we can assume that the exclusion of Mike was accidental, but I think it’s far more likely that the line was intended to communicate something in particular and executed very subtly. I think it’s the same here. The Duffers could’ve easily had Will call for Dustin or Lucas, but he doesn’t. He calls only for Mike, three or four times. Even if it means nothing, it was still a creative choice and that in and of itself warrants notice.

I think Will has come to rely on Mike for some sort of guidance or protection, from both supernatural and human troubles. It’s Mike that comes after Will, saying “I couldn’t find you.” Mike is probably the one who noticed Will was missing (again). He insists on taking Will home, alone, indicating perhaps that Mike doesn’t want to relinquish his caretaker role to anyone in the group. I wrote in my last post that Will and Mike have a sort of symbiosis, where Will needs Mike, and Mike needs Will to need him, and this relationship helps them cope with the traumatic events of season 1. I think this is where we see this dynamic start to play out more perceptibly, and it all culminates in the next scene.

5. “Crazy together”

Tumblr for some reason won't let me add more gifs, so I’m going to do a separate post with a full analysis. Coming soon, I promise! Sorry guys :( 

But anyway... that’s it for episode 2! I hope you liked it and as always let me know if there’s anything I missed! 

[chirpsythismorning]

Noah saying, "I don't think Mike likes Will back" doesn’t equate to him not knowing about byler being endgame, and here's why.

Noah and a majority of the main cast have been given a rough idea of how the show will end, broadly in terms of the entire story, but also more specifically in terms of their personal character arcs.

Actors are out here acting. This is nothing new.

Any of the the main cast insisting they have no idea how the show ends at all, are lying. This is because their safest bet is playing dumb.

There's nothing safe about them revealing they know how the show ends, least of all to an audience that is dying for any spoiler they can get their hands on. It just puts them in a position to have to think very carefully about everything they say, which is something they already have to do regardless.

It's a lot easier to just say you don't know, because then you can give vague answers or even just flat out lie and get away with it, as opposed to saying you know and then having everyone take whatever you say as gospel since you admitted to knowing what's coming.

David is pretty much the only actor who goes around explicitly saying that he knows how the show ends, which is something he's been doing consistently since s2 premiered back in November of 2017.

Something David has also mentioned on a few occasions since then, is how much input the Duffer's let him put into his character. He's literally praised them for having a collaborative process, because it allows him to play Hopper more authentically.

And so yes, I do think it's safe to assume that the Duffer's extend this approach to their other cast-members as well, at least among the main cast-members. I do not at all think this is some exclusive treatment only David gets, because this seems like more just something the Duffer's do out of respect to the actors. How else can they expect them to portray their character accurately if they don't know what they're going through or what their motives are or what's right for them going forward?

We obviously won't know all the details about who knew what at what times or how long they've known certain things, until they themselves come out and reveal after the fact, if they even do it at all.

Still, I do think that when it comes to byler actually happening, it's going to be very satisfying for fans who saw it coming.

This is because we're dealing with something the Duffer's are predicting a good portion of the ga will be bitter about, with the main argument at the forefront being that Mike and Will came out of nowhere.

And so, how do you think they're going to combat that?

With the literal proof.

They have David, who has been used happily as their main scapegoat through the years, whose words are literal proof that things were planned for quite some time. We have him saying all the way back in 2017 that there are easter eggs in the first season which we won't understand until the end, how it's beautiful and surprising and it will explain why certain characters acted certain ways...

Not only that, but there's just no way people are going to be able to use the whole 'it came out of nowhere' argument (at least without looking like idiots), because we'll have the Duffer's themselves out here confirming shit like blue meets yellow in the west and other theories that were entirely intentional (as we predicted).

And because of this, I think I can guess roughly how things will go moving forward and it's honestly already panning out in some ways I expected.

Because while season 4 ends in a way that seems to be leading towards Mike and El ending up together from the perspective of the ga, there are numerous details in the subtext and just outright in the literal text that's trying to tell us this is not actually the case.

And so now the Duffers and everyone who knows are in this limbo of tricking their audience in plain sight, hoping to keep this act going for as long as they can, and that's obviously not easy to do.

What I think makes it most difficult is that they want to surprise fans, but they also want them to be satisfied and happy with the ending.

And that is why the whole Milkvan straight bait is indeed very near its end.

If they want ST to live on as a cult classic with rewatch value, they can't keep this straight bait going on into the last season.

They'll want Mike and El to definitively give off platonic elmike for s5, with byler being endgame and Willel being wonder twins.

This is why Mike and El's dynamic HAS to blatant in a way that will come across as platonic to the ga in s5. And the shift needs to be immediate, otherwise byler will not be satisfying.

I feel like a lot of bylers already predict this, which is why a lot of us assume that the milkvan breakup with happen (or be acknowledged as having already happened) as early as 5x01 or 5x02.

Honestly, I do think that Will's painting being plastered on merch recently was one of the big moments which is representative of a shift we're already seeing start to happen. We're going to continue to see milkvan be promoted as elmike, while byler is being promoted in a way that is, well byler.

What I think is most noteworthy in terms of how they're approaching this conflict going forward, is how the actors themselves have talked about it when asked.

For example, there was one Con specifically that I remember Noah attended right around when Vol 2 dropped, where he mentioned byler at least 3 times. Two times when asked and one other time unprompted.

And no one ever talks about this, but full serious you guys, it was dead silent at that con whenever he mentioned byler. There were maybe a few hoots and claps, with Noah literally looking kind of worried. It was obvious he noticed the silence the first time it got brought up, and so he felt the need to mention it a second time when asked about what he shipped and then AGAIN, with a note of defensiveness in his voice:

"Byler is just, at it's peak right now, okay, so definitely ship that--"

And while in the background, all you hear is maybe 2 bylers supporting him, otherwise, it's mostly crickets...

Let's try to remember that while Byler is a lot bigger now undoubtedly, unless you're active online, most of the ga does not see it coming. And so byler is by no means fan-service. If anything it's show-runner service.

This means Noah had literally no obligation that day to go all out with referring to byler in a positive hopeful light, nor does he still. And yet he did and he hasn't slowed down much since.

His approach makes sense. Because his character has been revealed in canon to be in love with the other, he can freely say he ships it and even take the opportunity to hype it up in an attempt to open peoples minds to it, who might not have considered it before. And he can also do this because in canon, Will assumes Mike doesn't love him back, so Noah can just co-opt Will & the ga's assumption that Mike doesn't feel the same, and get away with it, without anyone whose close-minded giving it a second glance as evidence.

If they wanted to avoid queer-bait and get people to not look at byler that way, they had the chance to. A majority of the ga didn't read byler romantically and so they could've just kept things casual by not bringing it up, nor humoring it at all.

The byler tag didn't even hit 30k followers until AFTER vol. 2 dropped! Most people were oblivious (including bylers).

Undoubtedly, Noah in particular around that time, was a big part of why people started to look deeper on their own and it's how a lot of people ended up here, now with 277k of us.

Like seriously, listen to me ya'll, Noah would NOT put himself in a position to broadcast his support for byler like this and the Duffers would probably be begging him not to, knowing he would be subject to a lot of criticism in doing so, if byler was not in fact where the story was going. Point blank, period.

His tweet "vol 2 got me shipping byler over everything' has to have been the most obvious stunt of all. He was not saying that to be quirky or to appease a few thousand people, he was saying it to wake up the hundreds of thousands that might be open to it, and who just need a push to see what's right in front of them.

Then we have Millie's approach. Her approach for a long time has been to say stuff that she thinks the audience wants to hear, that being anything pro-milkvan. And up until Vol 1, she was still mostly on board with referring to it in a super positive light.

She also insisted during s4's run that she has no clue how the show will end (lies, Millie is a good actress pls give her more credit), and this also explains why she's tended to feel somewhat comfortable lying about milkvan positively...

Though as Vol. 2 neared and ever since, a shift has started to happen, where in interviews Millie is getting a lot more into depth and real about El's personal arc. She mentioned right before Vol 2 dropped that El was insecure in her fight with Mike at the start of the season because she thought he only considered her a superhero and didn't see her as more than that.... Then more recently she has doubled down saying that she is her own superhero, having been shaped a little too much by the men in her life.

SHE IS OUT HERE SAYING WHAT WE'VE BEEN SAYING FOR MONTHS (SOME YEARS)! SHE KNOWS HER CHARACTER BETTER THAN ANYONE!

Honestly, even though I understand they are trying to trick people into thinking they're clueless and so I guess I'm happy for them that they've succeeded in that, I can't help but admit I feel a little disappointed upon hearing some bylers say that they are convinced Millie doesn't know, but that Finn does and even Noah does, but that she's entirely in the dark about it and that they're okay with this I guess?

First of all, why would anyone be okay with that? Why would we be okay with Millie not having insight into where her character is going. What, do you guys think they're just going to pull up on her at the last minute like, "yeah sorry we didn't tell you sooner, but this is where your character is going to end up. anyways back to byler!...."

I don't care, it would seriously be fucked up to keep her in the dark about this because El IS important to the story and Millie, just like everyone else, deserves that closure so that she can understand her character better and therefore perform to the best of her ability. She also deserves a say somewhat in where she feels her character should go, just like David has said the Duffer's afford them.

Now lastly, when it comes to Finn, I think most assume at least he is aware of byler, and I do agree he knows, so let's start there.

Again, we don't know when they found out and so for now I don't feel like going too far into guessing the exact point and so I won't. However, I do think that Finn also as of late has had an approach that manages to somehow be very different from both Noah and Millie's, and for reasons that also make a lot of sense.

Because Finn's character is assumed to not return Will's feelings, he has to be more careful than all of them. This is arguably why he goes to the least cons out of everyone (most recently everyone attended a con in person, with Millie present over zoom even, but no Finn or Noah... seems very intentional at this point).

Why I think they need to be more strict with Finn in particular is because he's in the exact opposite situation as Noah.

His character is assumed to not return Wll's feelings, and so he can't go very far with what he reveals. What we've got up to this point is actually quite revealing enough as it is, which is why that's all we're getting for now.

What I find interesting is that Finn's approach is quite similar to David's. I know Noah is known for spoiling things, but arguably Finn is just as bad, he's just a lot more sneaky about it. He has a harder time lying, which is why I think he actually looks uncomfortable when asked milkvan questions. Not necessarily because he doesn't ship it like lots of bylers assume, but because he's having to dance around and lie outright and he probably feels bad.

His most common approach though is that he likes to make jokes and say things that could be looked at from multiple perspectives, where it could be looked at now as milkvan evidence, while simultaneously being looked at from the future as byler evidence. Him saying 'I think everyone knows how Mike feels about Eleven' was him quite literally gaslighting the audience just like Mike did with El in s4:

'I care for you so much" "I say it" "You know how I feel about you--"

But do we? Do we really? Or does the audience THINK they know, and so Finn can get away with saying something cryptic and vague like that? When really, in the future, everyone will be laughing looking back because to Finn and all the cast, it was actually abundantly obvious Mike's feelings for El were platonic and his feelings for Will were romantic.

Same for his response when asked if El and Mike would be together and happy in season 5. He dances around it, doesn't deny it, but also doesn't confirm it. Instead of just being like yes they will (which is what we're being led to assume is inevitable at the end of s4, and so he has no reason to dance around it), he starts by deflecting, talking broadly in terms of the stories overall ending, only to say he hopes they find happiness... Again his answer fits with the ga's assumptions now, but it also fits with the surprise of byler in the end as well.

Also important to note that Finn and Noah are the ones to repost about the show most out of everyone from the main cast. A LOT. In fact, they were the only main cast-members (besides Brett LOL) out of everyone to repost about the episode title name for 5x01 being released on ST day...

And it's because THIS is their character's big revelation going into the final season and they had a say in it going this direction. Even if it's what the Duffer's wanted all along, they still gave them and everyone to an extent, a say in things. And now that it's all slowly happening, they are front and center standing by that decision, because they insisted they could do it and wanted to.

I can't say for certain that things will just be smooth sailing from here on out though, by no means is everything just going to shift completely.

There is still undoubtedly this element of the Duffer's and everyone wanting to have the pleasure of tricking the audience. In an industry where everything that happens is usually expected and predictable and therefore rarely exciting, and with an audience that is always figuring stuff out before their supposed to through leaks and stuff, byler is something they have finally been able to successfully trick most of the audience to think will never happen. And that is fucking impressive when considering the heaps of evidence.

And yet still, they don't want to be yet another show that is considered to have a bad ending.

So, going forward, I think things will continue the way that they are, but we'll slowly see them be more comfortable in this element of acknowledging endgame in a way that will be easy to look back on positively when everything is all said and done.

Because if byler is endgame, IF they want people to look back and go oh Oh OH during all those moments where they misread things, but now they can see the other side of it, there needs to be more of an approach that gives Byler equal playing field and allows the ga to actually start to appreciate it and even want it and root for it. Which means buh bye predictability and heteronormativity and hello surprises and gayness (but also be open ended about it so the homophobes will stay tuned until the last second).