#but yeah its from the n52

[oifaaa]

Have you seen the comic panel where Jason catches Damian with his hips?

Have I seen the panel I unfortunately own a copy of the panel which if you've not seen the panel here it is

[aingeal98]

Y'know this is a really broad question and (since I know you're more of a Cass/stephcass kinda person) potentially out of your wheelhouse but I enjoy your perspective on lots of Steph related matters, so indulge me if you will: any thoughts on the argument that timsteph is/isn't 'unhealthy' and/or the characters are unfair to each other/bad partners?

Lots of qualifying clauses in that question, I know, but it's interesting to me because I usually see a lot of staunch arguments that either timsteph is completely/irreparably unhealthy (usually with one half as more of a 'perpetrator' in the eyes of fans) OR that timsteph is exclusively a great romance and that their various ups and downs are either inconsequential or the result of OOC writing.

I think the question is mostly interesting to me bc I see both sides of the argument and to me it raises questions about when things cross the line from "a fictional relationship we're meant to root for that simply contains elements of heightened drama which would be considered unhealthy IRL due to it's fictional nature which we're meant to excuse/suspend disbelief for" to "a fictional reflection of unhealthy dynamics".

This is a lot of yap on my part so again, no hard feelings if you decide to pass up tackling it.

Really good question that I had to think hard about. Ultimately the answer depends on if you mean they're unhealthy in universe vs out of universe, Watsonian vs Doyalist. I'm going to stick to pre N52 only as I think from N52 onwards they were... Fine? But kind of bland. The writers had erased all of Steph's backstory anyway so they had none of their history and were just kind of... Normal dating. But pre N52 in the 90s and 00s is where the unhealthiness is at its peak so that's where most of the discourse comes from.

So in universe I think both of them make mistakes and have certain attitudes and behaviours that could be deal breakers for some people, ie Tim's cheating and how he follows Bruce's footsteps dismissing Steph, and how Steph will sometimes overstep some boundaries because Dixon wanted to write the spunky bad girl pursuing the sensible chaste guy. But ultimately in universe there's nothing so bad that I'd write their entire relationship off as unhealthy, at least not before War Games. They had good moments and bad, and whether you think the good outweighed the bad or vice versa really comes down to what you personally can forgive and understand in a relationship and what you enjoy seeing in fictional romances. So Tim's cheating was an immediate red line for me even though I never thought him evil for it, just kind of dumb. And I'd understand if people still shipped them and thought them sweet despite that. So like, they have their unhealthy moments but I'd be wary of going to either extreme aka "Toxic and evil" or "perfect soulmates who's mistakes were ooc"

This is their pre war games versions I'm referring to. After War Games when Steph came back the writer for Robin basically used her as a tool to give Tim angst and show how cool he was. It's the worst Steph's ever been to Tim but it was also so poorly written and clearly biased thay even from an in universe perspective I can't take it seriously. Everything pre war games I wouldn't count as ooc but this... Yeah this deserves the extreme. It's not even "She wouldn't do that." it's more "Why are you not showing us why she's doing this. How am I meant to accept this when her motivations and characterization is so poorly written." It's like a lesser version of when writers lazily butcher Talia to benefit Bruce or Damian. There's no explanation or motivation for Steph's actions that make any sense, so I have zero interest in that version of Steph because she's even more of a prop for Tim than she was during war games, which was an incredibly disappointing way to bring her back and one of the reasons I'm very glad she got her own batgirl run.

Which brings me to out of universe. Because while in universe I'd hesitate to slap the unhealthy label on them the way I would on say, versions of Bruce that hit his kids (I think there is a big difference between the unhealthiness of timsteph and the writing of Batman as an abusive father, and I think Bruce's dynamic with his kids crossed the line from dramatic to unacceptable and toxic a lot more frequently and more extremely than timsteph did) out of universe looking at them from a perspective of how it benefits their characters I would say it's super unhealthy for Steph. Which is ironic because her romance with Tim and her featuring in his comics is how she became a constant character, but the writing is always trying to remind us that Tim is better than Steph, more heroic than Steph, more suitable for this life than Steph. Only the writing is so bad that, like with a lot of Tim's writing, the proof comes down to "Because Batman said so idk."

And that culminates in the failure that is War Games. Steph becoming Robin is all about getting Tim back. Both in universe as Bruce's motivation and in reality as the writers plan. While Steph is being tortured horribly Tim is helping is classmates as a civilian, and the writing hammers us over the head about how capable and competent and perfect Tim is to the point that I felt nauseous reading it because it felt like such a disgusting way to uplift him. And then when Steph comes back, she's not allowed have any actual emotions or feelings about what happened to her. The writers just throw her into a dumb Tim and Bruce plot without any care about how she would actually think and feel, and the same happens in Red Robin. It's all Tim Tim Tim and only her Batgirl series and her reaction to Bruce being alive actually allow her to be shown as a person and not just a prop to uplift Tim.

So basically in universe they're not my cup of tea but they're not like, abusive or anything. They're just shitty to each other sometimes, but they love each other and have their good moments pre war games. From a Doylist perspective though? I've yet to see timsteph written in a way that actually uplifts Steph's character, as even when she's written by someone who likes her and wants to keep her around such as Dixon there's just so much misogyny in how their dynamic is written. So I'm hoping they never get back together and just stay exes with a past so painful and complicated they don't want to talk about it with anyone, but especially not each other.

Thanks for the ask! I hope this made sense lmao I rambled a whole lot

[roseworth]

hey <3 heres what i think of every scene that rosenberg has written with rose

disclaimer: most of this is me being very nitpicky. rose was a side character for all of these appearances so obv i understand that its not gonna be perfect characterization. but i rly like talking about rose characterization so this is just me pulling apart her appearances for fun <3

ok lets go

overall

i LOVE the jason & rose dynamic. im not much of a jayrose fan but since its happening im glad that its like this. i love that its so much "rose is excessively horny and jason is giving her nothing" bc its so in character for both of them. shes fucking with him and he does not know how to reciprocate. they r so sillies

HOWEVER. rose would not just hang around him like shes doing. as much as i like that dynamic i feel like he also has to at least sometimes show that hes. you know. interested in having her around. shes just kinda tagging along and i wish there was a reason why she would put up with him never giving her anything, especially since she has a tendency to leave at the first sign of not being wanted

on a completely different note, im a little disappointed that shes wearing her old costume instead of the new one she has in btbatb/kt ravager. i appreciate that shes still drawn like an adult but i rly like her new costume so im sad that she doesnt have it

man who stopped laughing #9

STRONG start. beats up a bunch of cops, then right after she appears she does her stupid flirting thing then immediately says that she doesnt want to associate with the batfamily. queen.

not to mention right before this is my fav failgirl moment where she goes through her whole plan to crash the car and break jason out of prison. then just goes up and knocks on the door

flips the car over then walks up and says "hey its the fire department. open up" and not a single person believes her. i love her

lesbian rose crumbs <3 i still choose to believe shes talking about cass here idc. shes so silly and this was a cute lil panel

so yeah. she was on one page of this issue but that one page was great and i love her

mwsl #10

shes so lame <3 i talked about this moment a lot when this issue first released but i love it. "somebody had all the fun without us" upon finding a body, then realizing someone else was there and just. starts shooting. she doesnt hit anything. she doesnt even know where the other person is.

my big problem here is that she does not carry a gun and pretty much never uses guns. honestly now that im thinking about it this is one of the only times shes ever used a gun on panel (the other times i can think of being: shooting wade off a cliff after her mom died, shooting starfire in n52 outlaws (but new 52 rose barely even counts as rose), and using deathstroke's gun when she was pretending to be him in deathstroke 2016)

shes not anti-gun or anything but it still bothers me just a little that suddenly she has a gun (hence why i fully believe she stole jasons gun <3)

if i want to nitpick, kate should not have been able to hit her. rose should've seen she was coming wayyy before (bc precog) and she wouldnt be knocked down from one hit. i fear we are headed down a path of her becoming jasons incompetent girlfriend but i wont be too dramatic about her getting hit one (1) time

but other than that i thought this was a fun moment of rose getting hit then jason immediately fighting the person that hit her. toxic girlbesties fr

then also her needing to be held back after she gets up so she doesnt start attacking the person thats helping them <3 i love her

mwsl #11

this is a nice issue for her just because in true rose tradition she LOVES to have homoerotic fights with every other female character she interacts with. the kate & rose dynamic was soooo fun i love it when shes mean to people for no reason <3

i did not like this part though. i feel like there are a lot of implications about rose here that are unfair to her character & her place in the dcu. i'll meet the book on its own terms and say that we're only talking about post-52 rose (blah blah everything's canon rn but this book is very clearly not using pre-52 rose lore) but even then? theres no real reason for her to be ducking superheroes or for superheroes to keep an eye on her. shes not a villain or even much of a killer, the fact that shes "staying off the radars" of good guys doesnt make much sense. and the fact that kate knows her and "studies" her (fellas is it gay to study another woman despite never meeting her) implies that rose is like. a threat. shes just kind of around there is no reason kate should know her like that

cute moment! but also it bothers me. i think its fun that she refused to go since its not her fight and she doesnt want to get into a joker mess. HOWEVER. when has she ever in her life passed up an opportunity to get involved in someone elses problem. to me she wouldnt have even delivered the list of addresses without a fight if she wasnt gonna go along

other than her using a gun again (where the hell did she even get that) i like this <3 her showing up and saving manhunter after she said she didnt care what happened is so her. also i just like the fact that she shot joker

gay gay homosexual gay

the rest of this issue is fun <3 just kate & rose fighting together then getting blown up together <3 this was a nice issue for her despite the problems i had with it

gotham war red hood #2

gotham war break!!!

okay first of all i LOVE that he took her along. there was no reason for rose to be here but jason was told to meet someone and said "ok ill go but my weird friend comes with me" its so funny

ive seen a lot of people complain about the "you're my only friend" line but i LOVE it. not necessarily because she doesnt have any friends but because she would not in a million years ADMIT that she has friends. she would rather be shot in the head than say that she actually likes the people that she hangs out with.

but to be fair.... she also doesnt have friends. "what about the lazarus island gang?" the only person she actually liked there and showed any friendship toward was damian, and they ARE friends but she considers him more of a little brother than a friend. "what about the teen titans??" a) she would NEVER admit that she is friends with any of them b) its technically.... not really canon that she was ever on the same team as them. like i said before, im meeting this book on its terms, and rose being a teen titan hasnt been mentioned since flashpoint :( i wont go on a whole tangent about her friends but given that she hasnt really made a friend in years and never talks to anyone else, i think its fair for her to say that she has no friends

so yeah all this to say: she has friends, but it is 100% in character for her to say that she has no friends. i stand by this line

i dont have much to say here i just think shes so cute <3 i also love the fact that jason jumped straight to "rose is robbing a dead person" instead of "rose is inspecting the body"

but im OBSESSED with the fact that she DOES rob him. i feel like we're not talking about this enough. she saw a dead body and took his money. im not even mad about it because its so fucking funny to me

im sorry jay/rose fans this makes me want to vomit. this feels too "earnest emotions" for both of them. the rest of this scene was fine but this panel specifically feels so :/

"i just need help" "always" and "please take care of yourself" and "meet at our spot" "promise?" "i promise" does not feel like them at all. its a very sweet and genuine moment but they would NOT have sweet and genuine moments! neither of them would ever express their feelings and they would not have this conversation

this does not feel like rose at all idk who this is. where is the rage!!!!!! where is the anger!!!!!!! why did she stand there for hours just. worried about him. why isnt she lashing out

comparing this to the scene in tt03 where she's worried about eddie:

she gets angry! shes worried about him and starts yelling at everyone around her because hes hurt and she doesnt know whats happening. i would have LOVED this energy in this book and its sooooo disappointing that she just. stands there like 🥺 when she doesnt know what happened to jason

mwsl #12

i rly liked this part fhdkjfhakjdfd i thought her pretending to be him just to get batman out of the way was so good and so real. shes helping out AND fucking with batman

very minor complaint here but this isnt even true . she DOES try to run into him in ds16 when slade kidnaps damian and rose gives bruce the ransom terms. also i feel like this line is vaguely implying that she HAS found him (/he found her) on accident before which is also not true given that their only interactions are in ds16 and being in the same general area in shadow war. and also reiterating that shes not a villain so batman has no reason to track her down or cause problems for her but. whatever. this is entirely just me jumping to conclusions about what this one throwaway line means and then getting mad about it

LOVE this. she inserted herself into the situation then complains about it. this isnt her business and shes making sure that jason knows it. but also she completely volunteered for most of this

BOOOOOOOO she would not fucking say that. "sorry about that whole chase" no she would not apologize. "please dont kick my ass" she would NOT say that!!!!! first of all given that this is after gotham war she would probably kick his ass just for what he did to jason. even besides that she would not be afraid of him even a little. comparing their convo in ds16 #5 to this is so sad bc </3 why is she afraid of him instead of being a huge bitch and yelling at him

this ending is really good for her though. she absolutely would dive into the water with joker gas, trash, and dead bodies just to save her friend <3

this is more like it!!!!!!!! shes worried for him and takes initiative to save him by jumping in the water despite it being a very dangerous decision and then insults him while she saves his life <3333 its a tiny bit more of her being mean to express worry which is nice <3 its not perfect but its closer

in conclusion: there are many good moments. there are many parts i like about it. but there are just so many things that dont feel like rose </3 most of the broad strokes are there but it just doesnt feel like her when shes not full of rage and going out of her way to piss people off

[lazaruspiss]

Hi, I wanted to know if you've read Red Hood: The Hill and if so I'd love to hear your thoughts on it!

I liked issue 0 but my enjoyment kind of teetered off with issue 1 & 2

i dont read n52 but i gave it a go just for u <3 under the cut is a bit of a "brief" live read. TLDR: it's good, but it seriously does stop being about jason very quickly. if you read issue 0 and get really invested in dana then i think you'll like it, if not, then issue 0 is still a good read with great art.

Issue 0: some little timeline/canon details throw me off, but thats to be expected for any n52 story. the art is fantastic, and the shoe thing is so real. i still have no clue why sneakerheads are the way they are lmao. again, the art is phenomenal so far. Croc my beloved <3<3 i like how it's clear that Jason picked up on the secret identities pretty quickly, but its not really told to us so much as gestured towards via innuendo.

also, denise is pretty. i love her earrings in the diner scene. she also just kind of says what I've been thinking, that there's a risk to an independent neighbor watch the same as there is for any vigilante crime fighter. not just for the vigilantes safety, but for the safety of the people theyre supposed to protect as well. both sisters are justified in their position and i think it's a really well done conflict. it also manages to keep jason involved in the middle without making it just feel awkward or taking away from the importance of dana and denise.

"Batman swings on rooftops. I work the streets." <3 jason cool. and back to our main bad, i love how clearly image obsessed he is. it's done in a way that feels super believable too, like you could really meet a guy that insecure and egotistical lmao.

ohhhh and this is interesting. they're leaning into a family themeing, and the references to bruce make me feel like they're setting up a mending between those two. it's a bit... i have trouble with that. i don't think a mended relationship between bruce and jason is necessarily the best story direction for all their history. but The Hill so far is doing a positive light Jason-Bruce relationship better than most things ive read. It makes sense to have him be sentimental about his father when he has to stop a vigilante from killing. the end sort of, i guess i can call it a villain twist? I like it.

though the nods towards bruce make me uneasy. thats a very difficult relationship to balance, and its feels like its very much going to skew a certain way rather than falling into that "its complicated" territory that i like.

Issue 1: murder grandma! very jarring very cool. the writing still isn't bad but i think it might be a problem of issue 0 being so strong that the after feels lackluster. the writing is a bit more on the nose, and more emotional/character related aspects fall to the wayside for the action parts.

Issue 2: oh. ew. splicing a makeout scene with narration about an uninvolved man's life falling apart. i saw someone say it ended up being more about dana than jason, and im really starting to see what they meant with this issue. it's not the worst thing in the world, but it's understandable to be disappointed by that. the writing is also just gradually starting to lag. i havent checked, but if this is the same writer as issue 0 then im tempted to say it mightve been a crunch time problem.

back to the actual story, jason is less the main character and more taking the role of a mentor figure for dana. it keeps getting less and less about jason and more and more noticeable that it is less and less about jason.

Issue 3: croc <3<3<3 and yeah this series really stops having much to do with jason. we learn which vigilantes the neighborhood watch would smash tho, lol.

there's even references to the fact that jason plans on moving back towards batman's parts of gotham, like this is not a series about him at all after issue 0. i thought they were setting up development of bruce and jason's relationship, but there were really just setting up an excuse for jason to leave. "This is your bad guy, Dana. And I told you. I'm not staying." this series is 100% meant to set up dana as a bigger character. I feel conflicted about it, bc obviously that's not what people are necessarily expecting/hoping for when they pick up something titled Red Hood. but how else can you try and introduce a successful new character? I know dana isn't entirely new, but it's incredibly difficult to give a foothold to characters that haven't been around for long enough. i think that's partially a side effect of how DC operates, and just a result of general familiarity bias.

anyways. issue 3 ends with batman showing up. i don't think I'll be checking back for future issues.

[lygma-nygma]

Hi! You talking about pre-new 52 's Jason and Tim's dynamic made me want to to read about them so bad! If its cool, could you list some comics of them you've mostly enjoyed so far?

Oh boy, this is a hard question honestly.

See, before the New 52 happened Jason was fully a villain so admittedly as fun as their dynamic is there isn't a lot of it. It's also worth considering if you're okay with reading a proper villain Jason before you get too far into this. He does some messed up shit during this era and some of that creeps over into his limited time with Tim.

That said if you're looking for the comics I read they were:

Teen Titans Vol.3 #29 - Life and Death (It's Titans Tower, way different from what I was expecting)

Robin (1993), also known as Tim's Robin run. Jason appears in #177 and #183 prominently

Battle for the Cowl (2009) This one is probably the worst and Jason acts as a major villain in the plot. I didn't mind it as much as some other people but it is really divisive.

And that's kind of it for Pre New 52 unfortunately. There's a lot of the two of them thinking about each other or talking about each other that add into my original post but those are admittedly much harder to track down or remember off the top of my head. But yeah, they don't spend a lot of time with each other in person.

That said there are some good newer Jason and Tim comics that have them interacting. I can't in good faith really recommend many of them because I've honestly avoided a lot of N52 like the plague. I did read Batman and Robin Eternal which was pretty good, at least for Tim and Jason stuff. The whole comic run is about the Robins so there's a lot of bits and pieces in here. It's primarily about Dick though and is set far into the future, currently considered non canon the last time I checked.

If you're looking for comics where certain characters interact I actually use the website DCUguide and use ctrl + F to search for comics that appear on both characters pages. It's a little tedious but it's a good way to do it, especially if you're only looking for a specific dynamic. At lot of interactions are hidden within one or two issues of random series and can be a pain in the ass to track down lol.

[misspickman]

I was agreeing with you 100% abt the Tim nerd post btw!!! You said exactly what I've been thinking about for ages😭 And I definitely think it's what you said about Red Robin's art style and stuff, and of course N52 doesn't help. A lot of the misconceptions I see about Tim basically being an Oracle 2.0 are a mix of RR and N52 and it's painful considering there's 20 solid years of comics before them.

YEAH yeah its. Unfortunate. That mixed with people woobifying him makes for a hell result (its not even tim anymore). Its why i get what people mean by you need to read robin 93 before red robin because its so easy to fall into that trap if you dont know who tim is aside from that one really bad year. And that single panel showing him considering a future where hes kind of oracle

[wonderbutch]

kara and jimmy can share

karolsen teases in various mediums including the original Pre-crisis continuity

n52 siobhan and kara stuff

jimmy & Siobhan stuff from infinite frontier

i feel like ive never talked abt karolsen on here before or siobhan/kara much idk why im getting this ask 😭 but yeah i do really like the potential that karolsen had in the supergirl show and i wish we had gotten them in season 2 with them breaking up amicably at the end of that season. im also a huge supercorp shipper of course, how could i not be?

I loveee kara and siobhan in the new 52, clearly kara has a thing for irish lesbians and i 100% get it

i havent actually read the latest superman series in its entirety but kara/siobhan/jimmy could be sooo cute actually i love that sm

[crypt1dcorv1dae]

oh also i wanna specify that my version of gar is an adult, hes like.. early-mid 20s, and tbh logically he should have been an adult for... quite a while now.

like, i know its not like time just PROGRESSED from the old comics (what with the reboot and n52 and everything) but i still think that pre-established ages/age differences should probably remain more or less consistent... so if dick was 19 when gar was 16 in NTT, and dick NOW is 27-ish, then gar should be ABOUT 3 years younger, yeah?

so yeah, hes about 24-ish, my version at least is, bc idc what canon is doing at any point tbh

[ectonurites]

New 52 TimKon is so special to me. It’s the definition of a romance being doomed from the start. It also shows that Tim and Kon will always be the mos important person in each other’s life regardless of the timeline or universe

djsh yeah no i Get you. in general anything with N52 Kon is an absolute tragedy—he’s just a kid who tried and everything was so stacked against him! like regular Kon had a lot stacked against him too but frankly with the whole ‘hey the closest thing you have to a name is a slur a stranger called you’ thing and the way he dies (and none of his friends even really KNOW) comes back, and then gets manipulated by the man who made him into disappearing again… its sooooo much.

adding N52 Tim into all of it too then… is just fascinating because their friendship is nowhere near as developed as original Timkon, but yet in that last arc with Kon in TT Vol. 5, N52 Tim just ends up devoting himself to trying to clear Kon’s name no matter what it does to his reputation… the best way to make sense of it to Me, Personally is def thinking of it as some cosmic intervention that says ‘hey, these two are going to be intertwined no matter how different from who they were in the old timeline’

like again its not My Timkon, it’s not the Timkon that consumes my brain all the time, there are so many plotholes and things that do not make sense bc N52 Teen Titans is a mess and yet

[eyefocusing]

For Jon Lane, I specifically mean that the last person he fights is a Jon Lane without character development; there were 3 people in that Jon Lane big fight that actually got characterization - The jon lane that was the focus character for the last issues, Kon-El, and a Jonathan Lane from before Jonathan Lane replaced Kon-El, since Kon was helping the present Jon Lane and both were fighting the one from the past? as far as I understood it.

time travel can be complicated...

augh anon, my bad. its been so long since i read those issues OTL but yeah i vaguely recall what youre talking about now. and tbh it took me a few rereads to actually get what was going on in those last issues, n52 in general was such a slog a lot of the time that id totally zone out while reading most stories from that era

[val-el]

oh its so fun because (sorry big rose and jayrose fan) because dick. played a big part in how rose came to hate slade LMAO

he trained her for a hot second while pretending to work with slade and by the end of it she was kicking her dads ass and saying FUCK YOU and got to have a crisis over killing and if shes a good person or not because she met superman. fantastic four issues big fan.

anyway dick has a habit of going “mine now” to slade’s kids (on titans with joey and they are the friends of all time, trained rose and got her into the titans post slade kidnapping). thats his little sister!!! jason if u treat her wrong i will kill you again. dick gives jason the shovel talk not rose.

meanwhile bruce’s feelings about rose are very neutral — he took her on patrol once and shes a titan but he disagrees with her on things (killing) but shes tims friend and dick is fond of her and cass is also fond of her and oh dear damian is attached and ah. shes dating jason. okay. why not

and then the only slade and jason interactions we’ve had that i can recall are n52 where they were buddy buddy. but i think jason would hate slade because. he fits the bill of jason’s hit list. and also hes heard enough casual “oh yeah i think that happened when slade [terrible thing]” casually dropped from rose that hes like “hm. i can spare a bullet.”

BASICALLY. slade thinks jason is a stand up guy, all the batkids take rose’s side in the divorce, and bruce thinks there are worse people that jason could get attached to. at least he knows rose is good.

bruce and slade fucking hate each other tho. jason is neat rose but did it have to be batmans kid oh my god i cant stand that guy. rose simply dates jason harder.

Honestly I'm still learning about Rose Wilson but it would be funny if she and Jason got together cause imagine the reactions towards the two fathers and especially the older brother having already said issues with the Wilson family

[roseworth]

honestly I'm super new to DC fandom and mostly got into it via batfam and flashfam stuff so I'm genuinely asking — why do people talk so much about how bad Roy's characterization is? like what was his original character like bc idk much about him to begin with, but I'd like to

the reason everyone complains about roys characterization is that after the new 52 pretty much everything about him was changed :( :(

here's a really good explanation of it if you want to learn more in depth, but that post is a little long so ill give u some of the basics jfdkafjdaldkd

before flashpoint, he was super close with the titans, had a daughter, had a good relationship with ollie, and he was an experienced vigilante. then in red hood and the outlaws, all of that was taken away and he became just some himbo that hung around jason and didnt have anyone else :/

a big part of roy's origin is that he was raised in the navajo tribe then later became an official member, but that was taken away too :(

AND his addiction was changed from heroin to alcohol which???? why. in the original story he had a bunch of people to help him through recovery, then in rhato he didnt have any of his friends or family :( he just had jason and??? killer croc?????????

plus rhato has like. destroyed so many people's views of roys relationship with ollie :( before the new 52 they were really close despite their struggles, then the new 52 happened and they had a terrible relationship and so many people act like ollie is a terrible father :(

he got a little bit of his old origin back in rebirth but. its never the same :(

basically rhato took away most of roy's defining traits and all his relationships with other characters, and it watered him down just to make jason look cooler in comparison :/ so yeah. when we complain about roy's characterization we r talking about whats been happening since to the n52 to make him nothing like who he was before :( :( :(

in conclusion i am going to hunt scott lobdell for sport. i am going to rip him apart with my bare hands. i am going to cut his head off and turn it around to make him look at his headless body like they did in 1800s france.

[talagirl]

the world if superhero comics began exploring the realistic implications of superpowers on both the individuals day to day life and on society as a whole

[littlepistcl]

    ‘ Bop was based primarily on i/njustice’ gee i wonder why

[forcedsense]

if the b/atman trailer doesnt feature any b/atc/at i will actively fight reeves

[incoherentbabblings]

so pre-n52, how much did jason actually reconcile with the batfamily? like where was he at by the end, because i know in the current timeline they have basically made amends but i don't remember any of that happening pre-flashpoint

God no don't ask me about Jason I just get mean -

It never happens that's why you don't remember! Jason pre New-52 never interacted with Cass or Steph; had no meangingful interaction with Babs that I can recall post resurrection; the last time he and Tim meet is Battle for the Cowl which as we all know ends with Tim like this

Battle For the Cowl #3

And then Tim has other more pressing things to do post Dick becoming Batman so that's that for them...

The last time Bruce and Jason interact is... Under the Red Hood??? Is it? I think it is... I don't think they met again in Countdown so I... might be wrong. So. Okay. Also doesn't end on a great note. Also interesting that they never seemingly interact again. Guess Bruce had other things on his plate...

The last time for Damian and Dick work with Jason in Batman and Robin #24 and #25 to help rescuse Sasha but there's no reconcilliation there at all. Jason makes Dick choose between chasing him and saving civilians which obviously Dick chooses innocent people.

'Judd Winnick is the only one who writes Jason well' my butt. This is as terrible as the rest. Anyway Jason fucks off with no destination in mind. Damian declares the situation as sucking. Dick is in full agreement.

Batman and Robin (2009) #25

So. Yeah. Reconcillation? Pffffffffffffffffffffft. Jason having earnt any kind of forgiveness leading into the New 52? Where. Where????? WHERE?

Convergence Batman and Robin, despite being set in pre-Flashpoint universe, clearly takes its cue from New 52 Jason. So... DC just asks us to take their word for it that Jason's trying to be better and that the batfam is not being astoundingly stupid for taking him even remotely seriously leading into the New 52. But whatever. It's a different world and a different Jason. Neither are compelling or written well in my opinion, but hey. I am not kind to the guy on his good days anyway so...