#but that's just my opinion ??? go on and ship what you love

[demi-god77]

I don't like getting into drama, so that's why I'm making my own separate post, but it drives me insane when people claim s5 will have no time for relationships.

The driving force of the ENTIRE show IS the relationships between characters. Whether these are romantic, platonic or familial. The bonds they have, what brings them together, what tears them apart.

You're obviously allowed to have your own opinions about the plotlines/ships, whatever. But those opinions are not facts.

The creators have time and time again pointed out that s5 needs to tie everything together and that INCLUDES relationships. They can't leave things on the air, they need to answer everything.

And let's ignore Byler for a second. Things between Nancy and Jon are a bit tense by the end of s4. They're not telling each other everything and that storyline/love triangle needs to be tied up. Ffs they CAN'T introduce a plot point (ie. Jon's college acceptance letter) if they go nowhere with it.

Same with Robin and Vickie. You don't introduce a love interest in the penultimate (!) season, if you don't plan on following through with it/developing them in any way. They didn't introduce Vickie only for her to not get any development with Robin, simple as that.

I wish people would understand that writers and directors don't just do shit. They don't tell the actors to go on stage and do whatever. You simply don't introduce a plot point, if it doesn't come back. Chekhov's gun and everything. Will being in love with Mike, giving him the painting that was essentially his indirect confession, IS a plot point.

When I say the biggest Byler proof for me is the narrative, I mean it. Will believes Mike is not in love with him and will never be. If he's right, it's a useless storyline. Simple. It's not a plot twist, it doesn't defy expectations, it's exactly what we already knew. So why make it a plot point? Why introduce it in the first place? Will is certainly not a character that needs to learn he can't always get what he wants, it doesn't develop his character in any way and Mike not loving him is something he has already convinced himself is true. It serves no purpose.

ST is a sci-fi show yes, but it has never been just that. The themes, the bonds between characters, there is so much more. This is why I can't stand when people say they won't have time in s5 to develop anything. A season without any development to any of the characters is a failed season. It's a season where nothing happens. And this isn't about Byler exclusively either, it's about EVERY character, EVERY bond and relationship. Were any of the past seasons focused solely on the monsters and the supernatural? The driving force was always the characters. The final season is not gonna be any different.

The creators have said they don't have time to do a "where is everyone now" thing that they do at the start of every season, because obviously stakes are much higher. They can't spend time showing Steve flirt with some random girl or things like that. THAT DOESN'T MEAN CHARACTERS WON'T DEVELOP, HOLY SHIT. They just can't spend time on random things.

That is all.

[frostfires-blog]

With all due respect, I greatly disagree. I wasn't going to say anything decisive about this 'epilogue debacle' because I'm honestly tired of everything I've gone through for the past few years... But when someone directly uses my post like this, I can't just say nothing... Firstly, my post was made half-jokingly—so there's no need to take things this seriously. Not in the sense that everyone's feelings aren't valid—but in the sense that I know BakuDeku and ItaFushi's situations aren't the same. No two ships are exactly identical—no matter their shared parallels and tropes. Likewise, UraDeku and Yuji x Ozawa aren't the same either. I was merely drawing a parallel between things because certain elements are comparable. I believe that shipping is a very personal matter—but when engaging in discourse with others, it's important to take a step back sometimes. I know this is easier to say than to do at times.

-> The treatment of M/F ships compared to M/M ships: The handling of M/F ships in comparison to M/M ships is incomparable—particularly in publications that are highly restrictive, such as Shounen Jump. While a casual yet suggestive conversation or simple gestures like a simple handhold can be interpreted as subtle confirmation for a M/M ship—the same cannot be said for a M/F ship. You can undoubtedly use such instances to support the foundation of an M/F ship—but declaring it canon, in my opinion, is a little presumptuous. There is nothing barring a shounen mangaka from clearly confirming a M/F ship. While social prejudice, censorship, and management would undoubtedly impede a mangaka from confirming an M/M ship. That is why I find it somewhat distasteful that people are claiming UraDeku is canon when there wasn't a concrete confirmation. As biased as I am... We all know that if the roles were reversed, many UraDeku shippers would be rioting if BakuDeku shippers called the ship canon because of a conversation and "silly dap-up"—despite the added context of BakuDeku being an M/M ship in a shounen manga.

-> Why I think BakuDeku and ItaFushi are comparable in this context: I went slightly off-topic, but ultimately it boils down to the fact the events of both epilogues were used by part of the fandom to taunt and ridicule both BakuDeku and ItaFushi shippers. At least that is what has been going on within the circles I run in. Generally, BakuDeku shippers have been getting it far worse though, but since when hasn't it been like this? While I love BakuDeku and ItaFushi with all my heart, I didn't have much faith in either ship being outright confirmed given that BNHA and JJK are serialised in Shounen Jump. The best we could ever hope for was an implied ending with no confirmed ships. The same cannot be said for M/F ships like UraDeku and Yuji x Ozawa. It is well acknowledged that shounen manga integrates bromance aspects to appeal to audiences who support M/M pairings, thereby bolstering merchandise sales. So it will remain unknown whether the symbolism encircling BakuDeku and ItaFushi was intentional or not. Nonetheless, I firmly believe that the decision to refrain from overtly confirming UraDeku and Yuji x Ozawa was deliberate. Given that, no one at Shounen Jump could or would prevent either Horikoshi or Gege from making an M/F pairing canon.

-> In Conclusion: Despite everything I said, in no way am I saying that people who like ItaFushi have to like BakuDeku and vice versa... But their situations presently are undoubtedly comparable. While I can't speak for all BakuDeku shippers, most of us were civil with other shippers despite having endured years of harassment. Most of us wanted the series to end with no official ships so that everyone could be happy. Yet many UraDeku shippers used the epilogue to harass and taunt BakuDeku shippers. I've started to see the same thing happen in the JJK fandom, albeit to a lesser extent. So naturally, many BakuDeku and ItaFushi shippers have gotten frustrated and have expressed themselves in creative ways. Ultimately, I'm not saying all UraDeku and Yuji x Ozawa shippers are bad people—just as I know that not all BakuDeku and ItaFushi shippers are good people. However, we've been through a lot—so please be more mindful and patient with us.

If I had a nickel for every time almost half the fandom called a ship canon based off of a casual conversation in a shounen manga's epilogue, I'd have 2 nickels. Which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice…

_________________________________

If I had a nickel for every time a shounen manga ended with no canon ships but somehow half the fandom still found a way to discredit one of its most profound fanships just because they were M/M, I'd have 2 nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.

[dinosaurswant2rule]

The trouble with Galadriel and Sauron (what the show won't admit)

Before I get hate, I fully love these two as a couple, I ship them so hard as Sauron and Galadriel and Halbrand/Galadriel (although I would have loved it if Halbrand was just a "dude" with a tragic past not the source of evil incarnate)

Anyway my rant/analysis

I've read a lot of META analysis about TROP/Galadriel / her mistakes/not spotting Sauron for what he is etc / the mistakes blah blah blah

And while it's also fascinating, my big issue with the show and to a certain extent the analysis around her is that and I'm going to say this SUPER LOUD

SAURON IS RIGHT (in a way that doesn't for Celebrimbor or any of the other character he interacts with)

Yes Sauron absolutely manipulates Galadriel and she refuses to acknowledge a whole series of things.

But, for Galadriel, everything he says to her on the raft is absolutely true in a way that's not really true for anyone else.

Galadriel IS cast out by the elves for wanting more soldiers, for hunting an enemy that they think is gone even though she is TADA right as well. Sauron is not dead (Gil Galad grhhh) They don't listen to the commander whose hunted him for decades and led them across the battle field, they just say go away crazy cat lady - we'll just ship you off to Valinor.

And it just annoys me so much, that it's never really acknowledged EVER in the second series that she actually has a point

Sauron WAS NOT DEAD

That they put her directly in the path of someone when she is angry/damaged/still mourning a brother she lost a long time ago

And when they find out she is right, they have GALL to blame her for it utterly

Elrond AND Gil Galad both lay the blame entirely on her shoulders, no one ever really openly says, sorry Gal we put you in a super awkward position where you could have been open to Sauron's manipulation, that's on us and sorry for not believing you first time around.

Elrond - twat that he is (although I love him) sorta says sorry in between make out kisses at the last possible second, but it would have been nice for him to actually acknowledge it that Auntie Galadriel actually had a point.

He also has the nerve to say that she had the darkness calling to her/ that basically she was just an idiot falling for Sauron's tricks / is possibly corrupted herself

And Gil Galad never admits it either - still vaguely regarding her a sparkly flea he can't quite swat

And that she's somehow created another problem he's got to fix

While I totally admit that it's partly her fault, I just don't think the show is written as desperately fair to Galadriel and the second series suffers a lot from it.

After building her as the angry/damaged/virtually invincible soldier in the first series, the second series determinedly knocks her down a peg or two and the men folk take over (this is not helped by the fact that she no female relationships in the series) even though t hey are partly to blame for this mess.

I guess it frustrates me that the writing /the way the cast describe it - they tend to just go with the Galadriel made a horrible mistake and look at the consequences / she really did want what Sauron offered line

Anyway, back to Sauron, HE IS RIGHT, she is dumped by the elves and he is the only one who vaguely sees her as AN EQUAL, he actually finds her determination and obsession APPEALING rather than a turn off.

And it's seen as this monstrous thing, he's saying, but it's not really because he's being absolutely true

I SEE YOU AS AN EQUAL, AS MY MATCH (romantic or otherwise)

LET'S WORK TOGETHER

BECAUSE YOU'RE AMAZING

It's hardly a shock that Galadriel found this appealing because literally no man in her immediate world has ever really acknowledged in this way before and by the end of the series, he stills wants her!

(and in my opinion even after the roundhouse kick to the face)

(this might be one of the reasons her connection is so deep with him)

Celembrimbor on other hand, Sauron plays on his vanity/his desperation/his loneliness? as well as his basic good nature, but he doesn't really ever hit the nail on the head in terms of his situation (cause frankly Brimby is living a decent life)

Sorry this always bugs me when I watch it/read it

Just had to ran this out, much love to the TROP fandom and HALADRIEL and SAURONDIEL too, you're all amazing

Elsa out x

[random111sposts]

[S2 SPOILERS] My problems with JayVik (Mostly Jayce) and season 2 in general

DISCLAIMER: YOU CAN SHIP JAYVIK, IT'S FINE, I JUST WANNA EXPLAIN WHY I DON'T AND HOW THE SHIP ENDED UP HARMING THE CHARACTERS' ARCS INSTEAD

WE HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS, THIS IS MINE

The more and more I rewatch season 2 of Arcane and the more I talk about it with my friend, the more I see problems with the writing and how they did the characters

A lot of it revolving around Jayce specifically and how they seem to have sacrificed Jayce and Viktor's individual characterization and why I don't see Viktor and Jayce together and much prefer they stay just friends and focused more on their own individual struggles and stories

(It seemed like they wanted to put more emphasis on how much Viktor and Jayce need each other rather than focus on how they need to fix up their own individual growth, like how Mel was basically cast aside for some reason as if she and Jayce weren't a thing so he left her alone to become astral buddies with his partner without even saying good bye to Mel first

Sure, just forget the woman who influenced you greatly both in bad and good ways, the same woman who was trying to convince the council not to want weapons made with Hexcore

Forget the woman who you would go to for comfort and who WAS THERE FOR YOU WHILE YOU WERE STRUGGLING WITH YOUR DYING BEST FRIEND

And how Viktor keeps on doing stupid shit like not defending himself or hiding in Act 2 when he himself says that Jayce is not acting like himself and even invites Jayce, thus allowing Jayce to do exactly what you would expect your bestfriend who you said seemed not like himself would do, kill people

He wastes Ambessa's and Singed's time and visits Jayce first even though he can just forcefully get Jayce to join him anyway by having Singed already go through the plan in Act 3 when Viktor was a villain

But nah, doc, gotta talk with my boyfriend first even though I'm currently supposed to be the version of myself that prioritizes evolution more cuz I changed after being killed)

(I wish they went more in depth about Viktor wanting to help the people of Zaun and creating inventions while also struggling with his own flaws and weaknesses both physically and mentally while also having to deal with the discrimination and ignorance of Piltover towards what they keep doing that ends up harming Zaun)

(I wish they went more in depth about how ignorant and naive Jayce is with how he keep accidentally causing more harm towards Zaun like when Ekko called him out for basically making shit that bring the trash of Piltover over to Zaun. Then have Jayce start to grow more as a character and actually LEARN AND KEEP TRYING to go against the superficial demands of his fellow council members and actually try to help the people of Zaun properly by actually listening to them and not just listen to the higher ups because he's a people pleaser. Have Jayce learn more to be independent and less susceptible to being easily manipulated and influenced

DO NOT JUST IMMEDIATELY SHOW SOME TIME TRAVELLING BULLSHIT THEN HAVE JAYCE SUDDENLY KILL GOD VIKTOR THEN SUDDENLY MAKE JAYCE SEEM LIKE HE'S RHE HERO ALL ALONG WHEN WE DIDN'T PROPERLY SEE HIS CHARACTER GROW OTHER THAN HIM BEING FORCED TO BE HARDENED DUE TO THE TRAUMA OF BEING TRAPPED IN A DYSTOPIA

That's not growth, THAT'S TRAUMA

AND PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF FUCKING GOD, STOP MAKING HIM DO THE "Trust me bro" SHIT LIKE HOW HE DIDN'T ELABORATE ON HOW HEXCORE IS A CURSE TO VIKTOR AND HOW ALL HE DID TO PROVE VIKTOR IS BAD IS SHOW A MANNEQUIN)

Like, with Jayce and Mel, they barely had a proper resolution with Jayce just leaving Mel to play Astral God with Viktor without even thinking about how this would affect Mel

And with Jayce's decision to kill Viktor I initially thought "Okay, cool"

But then, the more I think about it, why didn't Jayce just talk to Viktor and ACTUALLY explain how the Hexcore is a curse? THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DOES ANYWAYS AT THE FINALE, SO WHY NOT DO IT BACK IN ACT 2?

SHOW VIKTOR YOUR MEMORIES OR TALK OR SOMETHING SINCE YOU DO THAT ANYWAYS AT THE END

Like Jesus, all Jayce said was "Hexcore is a curse" without elaborating then kills Salo

I keep justifying why Jayce killed Viktor immediately with the whole "Jayce is traumatized cuz he was trapped in a dystopia for God knows how long" but someone else pointed out that it probably isn't enough to justify Jayce's brutality

And I already made a post all about Viktor's POV during all of season 2 so I wouldn't blame Viktor for now changing his views on the world AFTER BEING KILLED BY HIS BESTFRIEND AND WAKING UP TO ALL HIS PEOPLE DYING TOO

https://www.tumblr.com/random111sposts/769459212648693760/viktors-pov-hexcore-kills-friend-i-am-about

I was initially fine with Jayce being a dumbass in season 1 mostly because his dumbassery is constantly called out (Vi calls him out when he panics about killing a child by pointing out how he people have been harming for years and he is just to ignorant about it, Viktor KEEPS calling out Jayce's bullshit like with preventing Zaunites from crossing the bridge and Jayce considering making weapons)

But season 2, not many people do that as much so I ended up getting more and more mad with Jayce's actions since not many of the characters are gonna call him out

The closest was (again) Viktor who full on ended their partnership because Jayce broke their promised, revived Viktor with the thing that killed Sky, and MADE WEAPONS with said thing

Now onto Viktor, my main problem is THEY HAD MORE POTENTIAL TO FLESH OUT VIKTOR'S CHARACTER

LIKE HAVING HIM WORK TOGETHER WITH JINX?

HAVE HIM HAVE MORE PARALLELS WITH SINGED?

HAVE HIM REALIZE BEFORE THAT HE ACCIDENTALLY MADE A HIVEMIND AND STRUGGLE TO UNDO IT THEN GET DEPRESSED THAT HE ONCE AGAIN ENDED UP HARMING PEOPLE IN AN ATTEMPT TO SAVE OTHERS?

BUT NO, LET'S HAVE VIKTOR BE AN EMOTIONAL DUMB FUCK AND NOT ASK JINX AND VI "Hey, since I'm helping your dad and stuff, mind helping me by defending my people since my ex BFF is coming here and he seems not to be in the right mind?"

VIKTOR WOULDN'T HAVE KNOWN IF THEY WOULD SAY YES BUT MIGHT AS WELL TRY, RIGHT?

WE COULD'VE HAD A COOL ZAUN NATION THING WHERE VI, JINX, ISHA, VANDER, AND VIKTOR WORK TOGETHER TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE

BUT NO, HAVE VIKTOR DO NOTHING TO TRY TO DEFEND HIMSELF, HAVE HIM INVITE JAYCE OVER, THEN HAVE HIM MEDITATE WHILE JAYCE TURNS HIM INTO A DAMN DONUT

YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

Also, the damn line "You were trying to fix imperfections" or whatever

JAYCE, VIKTOR WAS FUCKING DYING

COUGHING BLOOD

WHAT? THE HELL YOU MEAN HE'S A PERFECTIONIST

If anyone was a perfectionist, IT WAS FUCKING PILTOVER, NOT THE DISABLED GUY DYING WHILE TRYING TO HELP OTHERS

Another missed potential, they kept show Jinx as Les Miserables or something in the intro, so obviously seemed like she would be a revolutionist

And Viktor wants to help the less fortunate and gets mad whenever Piltover does anything to further ostracize Zaunites

WHY NOT HAVE THE TWO WORK TOGETHER IN THE REVOLUTION?

MACHINE HERALD AND THE FEARED WANTED GIRL WORKING TOGETHER TO REBEL AGAINST THE PRIVILEGED

THAT WOULD'VE BEEN SO FUCKING COOL

COME ON

[luciferanalyzestar]

Wow that valastor person is a scum bag, calls the other people fake bitches than leaks private discord messages to prove what a fake bitch they are. Loves and cosmic are fans but they’re aren’t blind followers they recognize that the shows are flawed and like every fan use HC and fanfiction to cope, they know how to have fun. Only thing I heavily disagree is shitting on someone’s art. Dani is a bully and has driven alot of fans away, especially asexual fans that drew a lot of angel and alastor porn from the show because of how affiliated they are with viv and SH crew especially Morgana. being praised by SH crew for being a bully. The lesson that should be taken is that you’re not safe anywhere in the HB/HH fandom and it’s gonna get worse from here on it

I am going to be hyperbolic for a second, this fandom has reach three of ten signs of a cult.

You dare have criticism something or someone! BANISHMENT. Ex-fans are viewed as 'antis' or bunch of crazy people or 'jealous of Viv' like no. The standom believes that the leader (Viv) cannot do nothing wrong because she is 'mother' (yes, I seen fans call her that) and she not a flawed human being (even though every person on the spinning rock is flawed, even me and you). Ok, I am done with being hyperbolic.

The Hellaverse fandom cannot handle that there is another fan has a different opinion that goes against the norm.

We ALL have to like the songs, we ALL have to the same characters, we ALL have to like the popular ships, we ALL have to support Viv unconditionally. If you do, you are no longer a fan. You are just a little bitch hater. Like I am sorry, but the world does not work like that. We all have different tastes and views on things and humans have always been like this. I do not care if someone says the hate the characters and/or the ships I like. I am not taking it personally because I am my own person, that stuff does not define me.

I am only okay with leaking private messages if someone was being a bigot or being creepy towards someone, not because they have opinions OVER A CARTOON! It has always been obvious that Lovearts23 was not the typical fan, she is the reason I joined this community. Criticisms are all over her videos, it was never a secret. When looking at the critical opinions in the screenshots I was like:

I use headcanons and AUs to cope that Hazbin will never do any of the character's justice when it comes to writing. The fandom is the main source of giving characters depth and whatever else. I cannot count how many times I have seen fans take headcanons and theories made by fans as 100% canon, it is crazy.

I know Hazbin is very flawed and my ass will be right there when season two drops and I am going to have a gay old time watching it because:

Shitting on someone's art is "deviantART cringe" compilations behavior, critiques are the way to go. Danidraws is 100% a ride-or-die Viv stan. She needs to do self-reflective because this is a weird thing to say about someone for doing harmless Hazbin redesigns.

I know what 'pop' means because my mother said to me as a child. Pop means you are going to hit someone mainly in the face for talking back. Saying that you want to hurt someone for not liking your favorite shows is not okay at all.

This fandom has an acephobia problem nor can they wrap their heads around asexuals who like to draw and make nsfw or kinky content. I am sex repulsed ace, and I love kinky content even though the idea of indulging in stuff like it IRL gives me the ick. Some asexuals tend to be Aegosexual or Adesexual.

There is a lot of fans who are on the ace and aro spectrum (and a lot in the critical community too) and we have to fight for other lives and defend our sexuality and explain it to allosexuals who are too lazy to do a simple google search.

A lot of fans need to look at themsleves in the mirror and think:"Why I am doing this?" or "Has the stuff I done and say online have effect someone in a negative way?" because this fandom forgets that there is another human behind the screen.

[painandmovies]

bruh, they literally said they won't be switching up the couples to a question! They also said quote, "there's not gonna be time to explore our characters love life," if you wanna get technical.

"if you believe the duffers wrote an entire season without any changes or progression of any of the current relationships..." I do! But you can watch and get the answer!

Will could very well get a love interest (that's not Mike, probably). [I'm not hating on the possibility of 2 main characters getting together; I'm just going by the text and subtext of what's on screen because that's what it's looked like for FOUR seasons (I know some of the theories bylers have for subtext and I disagree...I'm allowed)]. I'm not fantasizing about queer people being disappointed, bffr. I'm simply expressing an opinion as you have done, because that sub-fandom has been a very vocal, and active "mean-girl" group (to those who disagree with them and are purely just existing, so often posting in tags deliberately to hate on the 'rival' ship (I don't ship m*leven but I came across this with a ST post). [And I keep tagging these posts "anti-byler" because I'm not trying to upset someone's enjoyment in fiction; if you have not blacklisted posts discussing anti-byler; that's on YOU and sillier to get upset over someone sharing their mind over something that does not matter in the grand scheme of things in our world].

If you really wanna get deep in my hatred of byler (and why I'd find joy in it's fans being letdown), let's address how Noah Schnapp, the actor IS a zionist (and if you disagree (idc tho), still said something nasty in reference to children and people dying and was not ignorant at 19, profiting off of something being "sexy" for civilians and their pain. If I'm really talking about the habits of bylers and how they operate every time this ship is trending, and what they have said initially re: Noah Schnapp, I could talk about how I find it odd that no one wants to bring it up, and separation of the actor and character does not seem to be a thing, much more marked by Noah's coming out and people's relatability to a gay CHARACTER and a gay actor outshining their connection to morals (and the fandom of that ship, largely overlooks the actions of that actor, doesn't hold him accountable, accepted a half-assed apology, and like I said, sees the real person as well as their inspiration, much less doesn't care about his remained standing on the show, because they stay concerned about a ship, and supports his real life activities/behind-the-scenes pictures, friendship with his cast members, etc... (all for the unjustifiable explanation of finding it cute).

I'm not acting like a mean girl over people who enjoy gay ships. I'm not straight, either! And I don't like byler! (Do you like all "gay" (uhh, Mike is ???) ships because they are gay?) me "doing something productive" while you wrote ALL this getting mad over the initial post of something I said. If you believe they will be together, this should not hurt you. You can watch the show and be happy when it comes out, if that's what you believe. Come back to this post is 2025 (:

This post got much longer than I intended to. But I might as well mirror your long-winded reply and once and for all respond to these repeated and new claims (i'm so not surprised to be a rebuttal). Happy supporting zionists!

I'm not a mean person, but istg I'm gonna laugh when I open up this app and see that byler isn't endgame and all the shippers lose their minds after 5+ years of the creators telling them it isn't gonna happen.

[eww-y-tho]

I updated my 'Everything I Have Ever Shipped' post on my profile (the pinned one) to include the story of the sneaky way that my sister trolled me while binging Arcane because it's a really funny story and not a lot of people have read my post and I think it deserves to be put to light becuz wtf.

So first of all, when my sister pitched the idea of binging Arcane in the car while visiting her, I was hesitant at first because LoL is actually cancer, but she convinced me (for her it was going to be a rewatch). I had a peripheral understanding and knowledge of the show. Like I knew Jinx, I knew that there was a lesbian sex scene, and I knew about jayvik, but nothing in detail.

In the car, she goes into specific detail about how she did not like Jayce. Because "all the problems come from him," apparently. I was fishy on Jayce based on her opinions of the character and really tried to see her perspective.

And I will be honest, I did not like him s1 ep4-9, and I really took Jayce and Mel's character arcs at face value. He was a good man with good intentions, but the "Jezebel" character in Mel would take him away from his goal, and he would become a narcissistic prick. But I also didn't hate him. He was a good character and none of his actions seemed too dickish (except the "you didn’t say they were from the undercity" line.)

I was pleasantly surprised by season 2, however, and I started to see what she was talking about was misguided at the same time.

The thing is, I never felt upset at Jayce for s2 act 1 & 2 and trusted that he had a good reason, and he became much more sympathetic in my eyes after ep7. AND THEN I started becoming a jayvik truther in ep8 because of the Mel to Viktor transition in the cave (like wtf), and the homoerotic fight scene, and I did a little soul search deep dive into jayvik.

I completely flipped my opinions on Jayce and she was deeply upset and it was hilarious because at the end of ep7 I said "I still don't get why you hate Jayce" and she like actually sighed and was disappointed.

I remember a specific moment where she went: "EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS TO VIKTOR IS JAYCE'S FAULT, VIKTOR TOLD HIM TO DESTROY THE HEXCORE, BUT DID HE LISTEN? NO! IF HE ACTUALLY LISTENED TO VIKTOR FOR ONCE, NONE OF THIS WOULD'VE HAPPENED!" And then I was like, "THAT'S NOT HOW A STORY WORKS, THO! HOW WAS HE SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT WOULD HAPPEN? HE JUST WANTED TO SAVE HIS PARTNER'S LIFE!"

I would also like to point out that I was wondering who the mage guy was that saved Jayce the entire series. It was in the back of my mind for the entire time, and I was really confused about him because I didn't see a character that could really qualify for his power set.

So while I was watching ep7 crying my eyes out becuz of timebomb, memeing with 'MEANWHILE...' spongebob references every time they cut to Jayce, having my mind go a million miles an hour with theorizing and like having a breakdown, I was just in a mentally strange place.

So when the mage showed up in the "I won't fail" scene... I saw the slow zoom in, the power set involved with the hexcore blob, and all the little tiny hints, and I screamed out loud, "IS THAT VIKTOR!?!"

... And she looks me dead in the eye and says "no" in the most monotone voice I have ever heard from her.

And I believed her so much at that point that I didn't even question it. So then episode 9 comes along, and Viktor is revealed to be the plot twist. I was so pissed because I was right the entire time, and SHE made me believe that I didn't understand the story. She fucking CACKLED.

I love her, but that was a betrayal, man.

Once Jayce said, "All I want is my partner back," I was a complete jayvik shipper, and recently, she's changed her tune to Jayce after I completely bombarded her with pro-Jayce propaganda, so that's better, at least, lol.

[mamawasatesttube]

kon sweetie im so fucking sorry that someone would even say something stupid like that oh my god.

[were-wolverine]

listen. usually i’m all about saying ‘fuck canon’ and doing whatever i want, yk?

but like. kataang is just SO GOOD !! THEYRE SO CUTE AND THEY BUILD UP THE RELATIONSHIP THROUGHOUT THE SEASONS AND THEYRE JUST PERFECT FOR EACH OTHER!!!

they are like percabeth-level soulmates. my favs fr

[panharmonium]

Hi! I love your Naruto thoughts and meta posts with all my heart and I want to ask your thoughts on something that has been on my mind literally since I was 13: what do you think about the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura? I went from being a hardcore shipper when I was a teenager, to being against any romantic relationship in Naruto after finishing the anime when I was in my early twenties. Nowadays I'm very into platonic love and depictions of friendship and I think the anime's obsession with forcing the "romantic interest" curse upon the main female character robbed us of... so much. There are a few wonderful moments in the anime where Sasuke and Sakura acknowledge each other, but because she's always "the girl with the crush", her actions are so often interpret as irrational or selfish by the fandom.

Hi @riemmetric!  It's great to talk to you again! Sorry it's taken me so long to answer this; RL has been making demands of me lately and it took me way longer to finish writing this up than I wanted it to (then again, I knew from the minute I read your original ask that my reply was going to get long, so I suppose I should have predicted a delay XD)

It's funny, my sister once asked me to choose between Sasuke or Sakura for an “unpopular opinion” meme, and I ended up doing Sasuke solely because I think the negative fandom opinions about Sakura are so unhinged and divorced from the actual text that I wouldn’t even know where to start.  People are entitled to dislike whatever characters they want, obviously, but there are some fandom takes that are, for me, so obviously rooted in bad faith viewings/readings that there’s no urge in me to discuss them.  That said, since you asked, I’m happy to go into my own thoughts on this a bit, with the disclaimer for other potential readers that I only write about fandom things for my own personal enjoyment, not as a contribution to The Discourse. If you don’t like Sakura, great!  I have no interest in changing your mind. Please consider this a sincere invitation to scroll on by and go enjoy whatever parts of the fandom appeal to you.

In general terms: I love Sasuke and Sakura’s relationship as much as I love all of the relationships in Team 7.  If we’re talking about them specifically as a romantic couple, then I probably fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, because I do like them together in a post-canon (to be clear: non-Boruto) setting, after time has passed and they’ve continued to develop individually and reconnect with each other, but I also wouldn’t exactly call myself an intense “shipper,” in the sense that I have no interest in pulling things out from the text and incorrectly citing them as evidence that Sasuke has hidden romantic feelings for her during the canon period. He cares about her in the canon period, just like he cares about Naruto and Kakashi.  That’s not up for interpretation; it’s the text.  But Sasuke during the canon time period does not demonstrate specifically romantic interest in anyone.  

[A note before people who might ship Sasuke with Someone Else emerge to rail against this statement - please just scroll past and continue enjoying fandom in whatever way is most fun for you. It is cool to ship whatever fanon thing you want; I think that’s great!  But earnestly citing any loving or emotional thing Sasuke does re: various characters in this story (yes, Sakura included) as indicative of specifically romantic love isn’t supported by the text. I know there are always going to be enormous subsets of any fandom who insist that it is, and I'm certainly not going to barge into anyone else's space to complain about that (because other people having fun together is harmless and none of my business), but I'm not obligated to indulge it on my own blog, either.]

Anyway, that said - the reason why I love Sakura and Sasuke’s relationship (from here on out I’ll use “relationship” in a general, non-romantic sense) is precisely because Sakura isn’t just “the girl with the crush.” Sakura has an arc when it comes to Sasuke, and its trajectory moves in the exact opposite direction of “irrational” or “selfish.”  She specifically goes from “the girl with the crush” to “the girl who steels herself and tries to put her personal feelings for Sasuke aside for the greater good” to “the girl who knows she can’t put her feelings aside, but who also knows full well that Sasuke doesn’t reciprocate them, and who still wants to save him regardless, because he matters to her as a person and a friend.”

[I'm putting the rest of this under a cut to save everyone's dash, and also to emphasize once again that this is a personal post on my personal blog which I wrote in response to a question from a personal acquaintance, the full content of which no one is obligated to read. I am not sending this post to random strangers and forcing them to look at it. I'm not even putting it in the character tags. I'm typing it up on my own blog and putting it under a cut. If you already know that you don't like Sakura, but you still click the link/read the post and then feel an urge to comment and complain, I am going to copy-paste this disclaimer and remind you that I specifically recommended that you scroll past and go have fun with fandom in your own way. Thanks in advance for responsibly curating your own fandom experience!]

So, from the top:

1. the girl with the crush

Sakura is, obviously, completely obsessed with Sasuke at the beginning of Part 1.  She’s also deeply clueless about him and his history (bizarre though it is, the story seems to indicate that she initially doesn’t know what happened with his family, the same way young!Obito is initially clueless about Kakashi’s father).  But what I like about Sakura and Sasuke’s Part 1 relationship is how this changes over time.

The critical scene that kicks this off happens right at the beginning of the manga, when she and Sasuke are talking by that bench - she complains about Naruto and blames his behavior on him being all alone/having no family to scold him; and even says she’s jealous that he doesn’t have parents to nag him all the time.  This obviously triggers an outburst from Sasuke, who tells her she has no idea what loneliness means and that she “makes him sick”/she’s “annoying” (importantly, the exact same thing Sakura said to Naruto in anger earlier that day), which in turn prompts Sakura to reassess herself and wonder whether she’s been making Naruto feel this terrible all the time, too:

From that point on, it’s a process of her putting little pieces together.  She still has a MAJOR crush, and she still acts like a twelve year-old, but as we approach the end of Part I, Sakura actually has a more accurate grasp on Sasuke’s current state of mind than Naruto does.  Naruto is initially excited to fight Sasuke on top of the hospital, because he feels like Sasuke’s finally acknowledging him, whereas Sakura is the one who immediately recognizes that something is wrong about this situation.  She is also the one who, after this fight, is concerned that Sasuke is really unwell and might do something drastic like run off in pursuit of the power Orochimaru promised him, but when she communicates this to Naruto, he assures her that this would NEVER happen:

(Sakura isn't convinced, though, because she goes to monitor the exit out of the village anyway.)

I’m not criticizing Naruto for his response here.  I ADORE hearing him say that Sasuke is too strong to need Orochimaru, with such perfect confidence - I love seeing how much respect and admiration he has for Sasuke underneath all their fighting, because that’s the whole reason he’s always baiting Sasuke and yelling at him and claiming “you're not so great!” He looks up to Sasuke; he wants to be like Sasuke; he thinks Sasuke is awesome! (It’s that Obito @ Kakashi behavior, you know?) But the fact remains that he is clueless about what’s actually going on with Sasuke in Part 1, and he remains clueless(ly optimistic) for a long time.  

(Eg, when he catches up to Sasuke during the retrieval arc and Sasuke climbs out of that cursed seal coffin, Naruto waves at him and calls "Come on, let's go!" as if Sasuke has been successfully rescued and is now going to come running home.  Even in Part II, when Naruto hears that Sasuke killed Orochimaru, he beams and immediately says, “So he must be on his way back to the Leaf Village!”  And everyone else in the room is like, “....,” because they know better.  Naruto doesn’t yet fully understand [or doesn't want to accept] the extent to which Sasuke has willingly chosen this path, and it’s not until after Jiraiya’s death/the Pain attack/the Five Kage Summit that Naruto really starts to understand Sasuke more clearly, which is something he himself admits.)

Sakura, in Part 1, has access to more information about Sasuke - she’s there for his first dissociative monologue during the bells test, she’s there for the curse mark’s placement, she’s there for his first violent transformation in the Forest of Death - she is, in fact, the unwitting catalyst for it (“Sakura…who did this to you?”), and her compassion is the reason Sasuke is later able to overcome the curse mark’s influence - so she has a more accurate/complete picture of “how he’s doing,” for lack of a better phrase, whereas Naruto, who doesn’t know about the curse mark in the first place, is still in the dark.  This means that Sakura is able to accurately discern that Sasuke is struggling more than Naruto realizes, and specifically to predict that he’s going to run away.  

(This dynamic is then interestingly flipped in the back half of Part II, since at any point after the Five Kage Summit, Sakura doesn’t have access to extremely relevant [if currently questionable and unproven] details that would in any other circumstance inform her behavior).

Of course, just because she has more info in Part 1 doesn’t mean she has some kind of miraculous insight into Sasuke’s every thought and feeling.  There are parts of her attempt to convince Sasuke to stay in the village that are as clueless as any of Naruto’s assumptions, and they showcase the kind of magical thinking common to childhood - like when she says that if he stayed with her, she could give him happiness, she’d do anything for him, even help him get his revenge - this idea that she herself can do something to make him feel better, that she can love him powerfully enough to defeat his pain - obviously none of that is rooted in realism.

Is this part of her approach irrational and immature and inadvertently self-centered?  Of course it is!  But it’s no more irrational and immature and inadvertently self-centered than Naruto’s stated plan to drag Sasuke back to the village even if he has to “break every bone in [his] body!” 

Hating on Sakura for her Part 1 attempt to convince Sasuke to stay in the village while simultaneously lauding Naruto for his feels like a bad faith misread of what is, to me, pretty clear narrative intention.  The story doesn’t at any point intend for us to see her begging him to stay as a selfish or conniving attempt to get something she wants.  She’s begging him to stay for the same underlying reason that Naruto is: she cares about him.  She thinks he’s making a mistake that will only cause him more pain in the end (she’s right) and she wants to make it so he feels less pain right now (she can’t.  But she doesn’t understand that/isn’t able to admit that, and she’s willing to try ANYTHING that might help).  

It’s critical that this farewell scene is set in front of that same bench from their first important confrontation - she references that day and how angry he got at her, and this time she tells him that she understands his reaction.  She’s learned things and she recognizes how insensitive she was being back then (“I know what happened to your clan, Sasuke”), even though she still can’t fully grasp all the complexities of the situation. She tells him that him blowing up at her back then helped her understand what loneliness actually meant (as opposed to her previous shallow understanding of it), and she challenges him about his choice right now: "So that's it, you're choosing the lonely path?" And when she tells him that she'll be very lonely if he leaves, we're immediately shown a panel of Sasuke thinking of both his friends, with the very clear implication that if he goes through with this, he will be lonely without them, too - that he's still struggling with the idea of leaving them, no matter how hard he tries to pretend:

Sakura at this point knows that Sasuke isn’t interested in her the way she is in him, but she still wants to give him happiness, however fantastical and immature her ideas sound to us (and, I’m sure, to him).  “I’ll do anything, even help you get your revenge/we'll have fun every day, and...and you'll be happy! I'll make sure of it!” - of course, it’s completely childish.  It’s irrational.  It’s ridiculous to think that any of this would ever be effective, but no more ridiculous than Naruto’s belief that he can simply break every bone in Sasuke’s body and keep him in the Leaf by force.

Both Naruto and Sakura are children who have a deeply oversimplified understanding of Sasuke’s situation.  They both still think they can fix him themselves.  They both think they can save him themselves.  They both think they can convince (or force) him to do what they want, what they think is in his best interests.  Both of them don’t yet understand that he has to want to come back, if it’s ever going to mean anything.  Their attempts to keep him in the village are immature and unrealistic, yes.  What they aren’t, however, is selfish, because neither Sakura nor Naruto are doing any of this with the intention of advancing their own interests.  They’re only thinking about Sasuke - how to keep Sasuke safe, how to make Sasuke happy - even when neither of them are taking an approach that will actually work.

Naruto and Sakura are children.  They’re afraid of losing somebody they care about.  Their attempts to prevent that from happening are desperate and messy and ultimately ineffective, but they are also genuinely felt and rooted in a true desire to rescue Sasuke from his pain, which - and this is the single most important thing that should impact our viewing of Part 1 - is something that Sasuke RECOGNIZES.  He doesn’t spend that agonizingly long moment bowed over Naruto’s defeated body so we can pretend he doesn’t understand that Naruto was just trying to help him.  He doesn’t take the time to murmur, “Sakura…thank you,” before laying her out carefully on a bench, just so we can discount it and pretend that he doesn’t recognize and appreciate her genuine intention to make things better for him, however clumsy that attempt might have been.

2. the greater good

If Stage 1 Sakura is "the girl with the crush," then Stage 2 Sakura is a progression to “the girl who decides to put her feelings for Sasuke aside in order to protect innocent people, including (but certainly not limited to) Naruto.”  She’s driven to this decision by interactions with Shikamaru, who all too recently had to grow up fast himself (“We're not kids anymore...we can't allow a war to break out between the Hidden Leaf and the Hidden Cloud because of Sasuke") and Sai, who risks his new friendship with Sakura and Team 7 in order to speak some hard truths and deliver one of my favorite lines in the whole story: “I don’t know what promise Naruto made to you, but it’s really no different than what was done to me.  It’s like a curse mark.”

(INCREDIBLE.  How can anybody be complaining about a season where Sai gets to say something that goes THIS HARD and Sakura LISTENS and takes DRAMATIC ACTION that actually propels the story forward in a meaningful way - )

[Okay, yeah, brief personal opinion interlude - it is just bonkers wild to me that there are people who complain about Sakura in the Five Kage Summit arc. That entire season is the greatest character arc she ever has.  Literally she has never been more interesting and dynamic than in Season 10; it’s the first time she ever gets to be as deep and fascinating as the boys; what is everybody so worked up about?  Oh, “she lied to Naruto that one time” - Sasuke joined infant-kidnapping baby-murdering human experimentation machine Orochimaru when he was twelve years old in order to (dare I say it????) selfishly pursue his personal goals and yet, somehow, we are still able to root for him.  He abandoned his friends/allies to imprisonment and death (Suigetsu and Jūgo) or outright stabbed them in the chest himself (Karin) in order to (SELFISHLY) get what he wanted, and yet, somehow, we are still able to love him, understand him, and be on his side.  Naruto is canonically not upset with Sakura about her lie after receiving context for the situation and I think we can probably take our cues from him without feeling the need to bring her up on war crimes; please calm down]

[Sorry, I just really love most of Season 10 and think it’s one of the best examples of how good this story can be when every single character gets to do something that matters (as opposed to things being all Naruto, all the time) so I get a little bit worked up over people complaining about some of the best writing Sakura ever gets.  I don’t understand what certain elements of fandom want from her. People complain about her being “useless” and not doing anything that contributes to the story, but then they complain just as much when she does finally get to act decisively and have just as complex/dynamic an inner world as the boys.  She’s “weak” for being unreasonably in love with Sasuke, but when she tries to be “strong” and put her love for him aside and eliminate him in order to protect Naruto and the rest of the world, she’s evil, because she should have been more understanding of his situation (despite the fact that she doesn’t KNOW anything about his situation).  But then when she can’t go through with killing him after all because she cares about him too much despite the things he’s done, she’s not "compassionate" or "kind" or "a good friend," she’s “weak” again. Nothing Sakura does in S10 is more wrongheaded or rash than any of the batshit, buckwild things Naruto and Sasuke have done in the past (and will continue to do in the future), but when Naruto and Sasuke have big feelings or take bold action, it makes them interesting characters, whereas Sakura can’t breathe in anyone’s direction without being minutely scrutinized for moral impurities.]  

Anyway. Back to a more measured response.  

Every single piece of development Sakura has with regard to Sasuke in this season satisfies me so much.  Her initial shock and disbelief at hearing that Sasuke had joined the Akatsuki?  Good, appropriate.  The fact that she starts to acknowledge the reality of what Sasuke’s done sooner than Naruto does?  Also extremely appropriate, very in-character for both of them.  Her taking Sai’s words to heart and deciding that the promise she asked Naruto to make when they were children is causing him to suffer and she has to relieve him of that burden?  Juicy!  AND thematically significant (promises!!!!  the burden that a promise places on a person, especially when it can't be kept - we've seen that before in this story and we'll see it again).  Her anguished pivot from wanting to protect Sasuke to realizing that she has a responsibility to protect the countless innocents who will die because of the war he’s trying to start?  HELLO THIS IS INCREDIBLE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.  Her knocking out the classmates who agreed to help her so they don’t have to share in her burden (and so the only person Naruto will hate when it’s over is her)?  BRUH.  Her being so committed and focused on her goal of saving innocents and protecting Naruto (not just from being harmed by Sasuke/the Akatsuki, but by the possibility that Naruto will someday have to hurt Sasuke himself) that she tries to take everything on by herself and walks into a confrontation that she absolutely cannot win??  INCREDIBLE.  (Literally the first time I watched this, I said, “Finally!!!  It’s Sakura’s turn to go off the rails!”  I laughed with my sister about how Kakashi isn’t even mad, because Naruto and Sasuke have been pulling stunts like this for years and Sakura was way overdue for her own meltdown.)  And then, after Kakashi intervenes in the fight - Sakura barreling back into the battle when she realizes he’s going to take on the burden of killing Sasuke himself in order to spare her and Naruto the horror - “I can’t let Kakashi-sensei bear this burden!”  I love her for that.  

And then, of course, in the end - her not being able to do hurt Sasuke after all.  Despite committing herself to the act, despite forcing herself to put her feelings for him aside, despite resolving to stop him from starting a war and killing innocent people, she can’t harm him.  She cares about him too much.  This, too, is thematically significant - think about Itachi’s “you don’t have enough hatred” - she doesn’t have enough hatred to kill someone she cares about, even if it seems like he deserves it, even if would be the right thing to do to protect others.  She can’t do it, and Sasuke almost kills her for her compassion.  

I love the dynamic this sets up between her and Sasuke, for a few reasons:

1) Personally, I think Sasuke respects Sakura much more for trying to kill him than he would have if she’d just tried to talk him out of his behavior or beg him to come home (a la their original confrontation in Part 1).  This is the first significant interaction he’s had with Sakura in years, and the fact that she does something SO contrary to his memory of her is an important demonstration of the fact that she’s not the same girl she used to be.  Sasuke spends a lot of time after his defection declaring to his old team “I’ve changed; I’m not that person anymore,” but this is one of the moments where he’s forced to acknowledge that his teammates have changed, too.  Time didn’t just stop for them when he left.  While he was turning into someone new, so were they.  They grew up without him, and his old memories of them can’t encompass the whole picture of who they are now.  

(This is a little tangential, but in general, I love the spectrum of reactions that Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi have in this sequence, and the way that all of them are ultimately messages Sasuke needs to hear.  Sasuke - who we know textually regrets what he did here, who apologizes to Sakura for it later - for “everything,” in fact - needs Naruto’s aggressively optimistic open-arms policy, yes, needs that potential, that unconditional possibility of return.  He also needs Sakura’s refusal to let him hurt her friends and start a war that will kill thousands of people, needs her surprisingly ruthless attempt to take him down; needs just as much her failure to do so, because it shows him that she still loves him too much to kill him even as she condemns him.  And he needs Kakashi’s grim line in the sand, needs someone who very possibly won't hesitate like Sakura (despite the horrifying personal cost), someone who will try to reach him but also won't let him escape and become the next generation’s Orochimaru, who won't let him cause untold suffering to untold numbers of people just because a teacher loved him too much to stop him when he had the chance. 

(And then even Kakashi chooses not to deliver a killing blow when he has the opportunity -)

(I know that in fandom people are more likely to be all, “oh, Naruto Good, everybody else Bad,” but I don’t think the narrative frames Sakura or Kakashi as “worse” than Naruto in any way.  The story goes out of its way to make it clear how desperately they don’t want to hurt Sasuke and how much they care about him.  And [this is just my interpretation, so obviously I won’t claim it as fact], I personally think that Sasuke - Sasuke, who, looking back, can see how lost he was then and how tortured he would have been if he’d gone through with many of his plans - would be grateful to Sakura and Kakashi for making an attempt to stop him when he couldn’t stop himself.)

2) On the other side of this, the fact that Sakura wasn’t able to deliver the killing blow means a lot. Sasuke was incapacitated under that bridge; he was completely at her mercy - but she stopped with the kunai an inch from his back.  She couldn’t kill him, even though she knew that he was completely willing to kill her (because he'd attempted to Chidori-assassinate her from behind just a few minutes ago).  That’s huge!  Sasuke is too out of his head right now to process this or understand it, but later, it's going to matter.  She stayed her hand.  She spared his life.  She loved him too much to hurt him, even when he’d given her every reason to take him down.  She hesitated, and he almost killed her for it, but her inability to strike him ultimately gave him yet another chance to come home, another chance to get better, another chance to have a life outside of his pain.  Despite everything, some part of her still hadn’t really given up on him, and that knowledge will matter later, when he’s finally able to acknowledge it.  

The point of all this is to say that I really have no complaints about Sakura and Sasuke’s dynamic in their S10 confrontation.  This season is the point where Sakura fully grows past her “girl with a crush” stage and into her “shinobi must make very harsh decisions” adulthood, but it never means that she doesn’t care about the person she’s trying to take down.  Her ultimate inability to deliver the killing blow remains a dangling lifeline for her relationship with Sasuke, an open door that Sasuke is able to walk through at the end of the story (literally, in fact, when Sakura opens that portal for him and saves him from Kaguya’s desert prison, and figuratively, too, when Sasuke apologizes to her).

3. she only wants to save you

The last stage in their relationship is what Sakura settles into during the war arc.  She started off Part 1 being just a girl with a crush, then tried to harden her heart and put her feelings for Sasuke aside in service of the greater good, but she was unable to actually follow through and kill him, and because of that, what she’s come to accept by the war arc is actually two things: that 1) Sasuke truly is willing to let her die if it furthers his goals, and 2) she wants to save him anyway.  

She has no intention of pursuing Sasuke romantically.  She knows full well that Sasuke isn’t interested in her.  She even knows that Sasuke isn’t really on their side (there’s a great scene where Sai questions Sakura about Sasuke’s return, and she reassures him that everything is fine, and Sai sadly thinks to himself “even I can tell your smile is fake”).  She’s well-aware that Sasuke didn’t try to help her when Madara stabbed her.  She’s well-aware that he left her to die in the lava pit.  She’s also well-aware that none of this is enough to make her stop loving him.  He doesn’t have to care about her - she still cares about him.  She still wants to help him.  She still wants to save him.

This is not hidden, hard-to-parse character development.  It’s explicitly articulated on the page:

Sakura’s not trying or wanting to make you hers!  She only wants to save you.

I’m not sure if people look at this last confrontation and unquestioningly take Sasuke at his word (as if we haven’t just read 71 volumes/watched 700 episodes showing us how how painfully distorted his thinking is), or if they stop reading/watching before the end of the scene, or if they don’t understand that Sasuke saying something doesn’t make that statement an accurate representation of reality.  The entire point of this scene is to show us how deeply mistaken Sasuke is about Sakura (and, by extension, the rest of Team 7).  He’s locked into a false pattern of thinking.  His single-minded focus on revenge and destruction has blinded him to the unconditional love his friends feel for him; he’s become so accustomed to using others and being used that he can’t understand or accept that someone would care about him without needing a reason, without needing him to love them back, without needing to receive something from him in exchange.

Sakura’s not trying or wanting to make you hers!  She only wants to save you.

Sasuke matters to Sakura as more than a love interest.  He always has.  She does love him romantically, yes, but she doesn’t only love him romantically, and her desire to help him is not and has never been contingent on him returning her feelings, romantically or otherwise.  Sasuke isn’t able to acknowledge that in this scene, but that doesn’t mean we’re supposed to just sit back and agree with his warped perspective.  Kakashi is the one who’s explicitly positioned as the voice of the narrative here.  We, as the audience, are supposed to recognize that Kakashi is the one telling us the truth.

[tangential thing 1: You don’t have to love Sakura's last plea to Sasuke here. It’s not my favorite, either - the best part, other than Kakashi’s speech at the end, is the moment after Kakashi collapses when Sakura’s expression changes from pained uncertainty to pure rage, when she grits her teeth together - when I first saw that, I almost leapt out of my seat like “Oh my god.  She’s finally going to let him have it.  It’s finally happening - ”  I wanted that so badly, and I still think it would have been a more effective writing choice for Sakura’s last words to lean more into her anger at the suffering Sasuke is causing all of them (himself included!) and less into yet another of Kishimoto’s “let me have Sakura articulate what a shame it is that she can’t do as much as Naruto despite the fact that I literally just went through a major reveal sequence in the war to show that she’s caught up to the boys; I can’t make up my mind about whether I want her to progress or not” - it’s extremely frustrating (and it's something he does at the very end of the S10 Team 7 reunion, too, which is the ONLY moment of S10 that falls flat for me).  But at the same time, even if there are ways this sequence could be more satisfying, it doesn’t change the fact that her plea to him is not remotely motivated by a desire to be with him romantically and not anything to condemn her for.]

[tangential thing 2: I do like how she remembers that moment when Sasuke says “Thank you.”  That panel precedes her saying “If there’s even a tiny corner of your heart that thinks about me…” (which I’m sure is one of the things that people like to criticize about this scene, aka “oh she’s sooooo self-centered” etc), but that particular line of dialogue is preceded by that particular flashback panel for a reason: Sakura knows that Sasuke DOES think about her.  He thinks about all of them.  Sakura remembers that “thank you,” and it reminds her that despite everything Sasuke has done and said since, despite all evidence to the contrary, she knows in her bones that his expression of gratitude back then was genuine.  He cared about her once.  He cared about all of them.  She’s trying to reach the part of him that still does, if it exists.]

[tangential thing 3: The fact that Kakashi says “she suffers from loving you,” and it triggers Sasuke to remember his own family - thinking about how much he suffered (and still suffers) from loving them - “Perhaps…those are the ties to a failed past” - the idea that it’s not worth it to have bonds if it means you suffer this much…that it’s too difficult, it’s too painful, and if Sakura and the rest of Team 7 were smarter they would just give it up (all Sasuke knows how to do now is sever potential bonds before they can hurt him; so why aren’t Sakura and the rest of his teammates doing that, why can’t they let it go, why are they making this so hard - ) << yeah, he clearly doesn't care about her/them at all.]

4. the shadow of my family

This has all been a really long way to answer the original question, but the short response to “What do you think about the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura?” is “I really care about it,” just like I really care about the relationship between Sasuke and Naruto, just like I really care about the relationship between Sasuke and Kakashi. And I don’t think the story ever asks me to choose between them.

I’m not sure whether it’s the impact of Boruto-era “canon” that gets in the way of other people approaching things this way (I don’t consider sequel material when I evaluate the original story), or if it’s Kishimoto’s frequent disinterest in/disrespect towards female characters, which yes, does sometimes make it harder, or if it's a shipping thing (bane of my existence), or some combination of factors, but for me, taking one member of Team 7 out of the equation hobbles the rest of the story.  I can’t read/watch Naruto while hating one of the protagonists and loving the other three.  It doesn’t work like that for me.  The story wasn’t written that way, and there’s nothing in the text that would cause me to receive it that way.

That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with disliking one of the main foursome (or any character, for that matter) - obviously we're all going to have different preferences, and everyone is free to enjoy or reject whatever parts of a story they want, or to like or dislike whatever characters they want. I know that some people have more fun disregarding canon and doing their own thing, which is fine.  My own personal zone of enjoyment comes from receiving the story as closely to how I think it was intended to be read as I can, and personally, when I look at this particular story, what I see is that all the members of Team 7 clearly demonstrate their love for Sasuke in ways that he himself later recognizes and acknowledges. All of them are driven by their desire to save him and their unwillingness to hurt him. All of them make repeated choices to chase after him when he runs away, to trust him when he hasn't exactly earned it, to give him another chance when he doesn't appear to deserve it. ALL of them, not just Naruto, do these things multiple times throughout the story, and Sasuke owes his life (and thus his eventual recovery) to ALL of them, many times over. Kakashi disobeys Hokage-elect Danzō and breaks the law to negotiate for Sasuke's life with a foreign head of state. Sakura and Kakashi both have opportunities to kill Sasuke in the Land of Iron, and they choose to spare him instead. Kakashi stops Sasuke from killing his only friends at two different points in the story, which would have been a mistake Sasuke couldn't have recovered from. Sasuke would have died in Kaguya's desert dimension if Sakura hadn't saved him (Sakura, who knew that Sasuke wasn't even truly on her side yet, who knew he'd abandoned her for dead multiple times already that day). Kaguya's bone bullet would have killed Sasuke too, if Kakashi, with his intention to die in Sasuke's place, hadn't leapt in front of it (Kakashi, who also knew that Sasuke wasn't fully on their side yet, who also knew that Sasuke had abandoned him for dead earlier that day). Sasuke and Naruto would have BOTH died in the Final Valley if Sakura and a severely injured Kakashi hadn't chased after them to heal their injuries.

Remove any one member of Team 7, and Sasuke never makes it home. Without the combined efforts of all three of his teammates, he doesn't survive.  That’s the way it should be, thematically, for a story whose first and most foundational premise was the importance of teamwork, and since Sakura was just as essential to that framework as everyone else, I’m just as invested in her relationship with Sasuke as I am in his relationship with everyone else.  You can’t remove one leg from a four-legged stool without damaging the integrity of the entire structure, and for me, discounting any single member of Team 7 irreparably damages the integrity of the entire story. 

TL;DR: I love all of the Team 7 relationships, including Sakura and Sasuke's, because despite what some segments of fandom seem to believe, the text of the story never gives me any reason not to.

[sieglinde-freud]

i miss claude so badly im already planning my golden deer maddening run while still in the middle of black eagles. i just want my guy. my favorite guy. unfortunately i just love the black eagles as a group/cast but i am mourning my man (i never kill him btw)

[skitskatdacat63]

.

[stop-breaking-my-heart-telltale]

if dorian didn't show up, do you think louis would have shot minnie?

I do. I know some people think either he wouldn't have or he would've missed so that's why the writers had him shoot Dorian instead, but mmmmmm no, I don't personally think so. I like to think that if he had taken the shot, his shaky hands would've caused him to shoot her fatally.

Mostly because I'm already so normal about the fact that of the Ericson crew, Marlon and Louis are the only ones with a body count. Well, that we know of, but shown to us in the game, at least. Plus, we know it's Louis' first kill.

Like yeah, Clementine and AJ become part of the crew and they have bigger body counts, and if we're counting indirect kills caused by actions, then Tenn has a count... and I guess everyone has blood on their hands for blowing up the boat... but I'm talking about killed directly with a weapon like....... I lied, I'm not normal about that at all, Louis and Marlon are the ones who have killed someone in Louis' route. I'm also not normal about the fact that Louis kills Dorian and then even as he's clearly in shock, he tries to go with Clementine to get AJ, and then later on when they talk about it, he says it feels like bile but not quite and he's glad he has it in him to do it.... listen, listen, listen... I'm obsessed with that.

Anyway, so if Louis shot Minerva, I think he would've accidentally killed her and can you imagine? He's already enough of a mess after killing the woman who pinned him down and tried to cut his finger off [or succeeded] but he knew Minerva, they were friends before the twins were taken. Even Violet couldn't kill her even though that would've been the smarter thing to do, and we know thanks to meta knowledge that killing her would've saved lives, but Violet couldn't, and I don't think Louis would intentionally either.

Speaking of Violet, if Louis killed Minerva, I hate to think about what that would've done to Vi. I think she might've actually left at that point, like what was planned before it got changed to her being burned. I don't think she would've attacked Louis over it, though, like yeah she attacked Clementine in the cell but Louis? I don't know, but I don't think so just because it's Louis and he'd be a mess about it anyway.

Though if he did kill her, it would be a neat parallel to draw... y'know, because Louis forgave AJ for killing Marlon even though he was pissed and heartbroken, and Violet was annoyed with him the entire time... but could she ever forgive Louis for killing Minerva? Y'know? We already have a similar parallel with AJ shooting Tenn, but still.

If Clementine killed Minerva in that moment, though, then I could see Violet attacking her since in her eyes, Clem proved her right.

So yeah, I get why they added the Dorian kill to his route. It adds another compelling element to Louis as a character, but we also need Minerva alive for episode 4; Louis can't kill her, he can't miss, and he's not going to stay with her because we need Violet to stay on the boat and him to be on shore for all routes.

[hobermallowed]

I’m sick of the drama about feminine Louis. They’re not trying to protect Louis at all, they’re just mad that for once a black man is being portrayed as soft and now they want to gatekeep the fics. But notice how when the reverse happens these blogs have NOTHING to say. Transparent ass bitches. I’m gonna write some loustat mpreg with bottom louis especially for these haters. Black fandom can’t have anything for themselves bc of people like this.

I’m not disagreeing anon. If anything, I support you.

[itsalwaysdark]

also its so dumb that one of the arguments ppl have against a sims 5 is that theyve already invested too much money into 4. like yes its fucking scummy that ea charges so much for dlc and its Ludicrous the amt sims 4 costs if you have all the dlc and its going to keep getting more and more expensive but . to be honest . why are you paying for sims packs. im sry

[marauderingminnie]

So much of the current marauders fandom controversy wouldn’t even exist if people just tagged their posts right 😭😭