#but i understand hsy's feelings

[lunarwednesday]

he's bleeding

[insomaniacat]

rereading orv is realizing that the words lee sookyung told kim dokja is true. you reread a book and you understand it from a different perspective. you read orv the first time and you see everything from kim dokja’s perspective, especially if you dont realize when he’s being an unreliable narrator or not. you believe he has a complex yet ambiguous relationship with yoo joonghyuk. you believe it’s pretty weird how kim dokja company cares so much about him despite walking the scenarios with them. you believe the words of the fourth wall is a romanticization of kim dokja’s actions, and not the truth that he keeps hidden away from his audience. you discover the story with kim dokja, our main character, because it is presented through kim dokja’s narration.

yet you read it again knowing everything that will happen in the future, and you become a side character. you know what will happen and you want to change it, but you can’t. you are doomed to watch as kim dokja, your main character, comes up with these crazy plans and you just have to trust him, maybe this time supported by the fact that you know how it will play out.

you read it again and you understand how characters like jung heewon, who was saved from probably the lowest part of her life and dedicates her purpose to the man who saved her. you understand lee gilyoung, who grew up without love and follow the man who seemingly validated his interest in bugs when that proved to be the reason he survived that first scenario and saved him. you understand lee hyungsung, whose mental fortitude wasn’t the best yet there was a man who believed in him and his individual growth and believed in him as he grew, not just as a character, but also as a person and be able to protect him comrade. heck, you understand yoo joonghyuk, who has been accustomed to walking through the apocalypse alone and find it hard to trust the anomaly who keeps sacrificing his life for his companions and finds these actions become increasingly frustrating when he doesn’t stop.

rereading orv is being able to understand the perspectives of the characters you may not have understood the first time you read it. rereading orv is understanding just how much can be filtered out when you aren’t paying attention. rereading orv is understanding that it is a story about many stories. you just need to pay attention

[chickemz]

Seeing posts about orv is so interesting, I genuinely want to learn more about the story characters, and how much they care about each other but at the same time, I know I do not have the attention span to read all 600+ chapters of that mammoth. I will simply rely on osmosis.

[nomairuins]

also its so dumb that one of the arguments ppl have against a sims 5 is that theyve already invested too much money into 4. like yes its fucking scummy that ea charges so much for dlc and its Ludicrous the amt sims 4 costs if you have all the dlc and its going to keep getting more and more expensive but . to be honest . why are you paying for sims packs. im sry

[briebysabs]

I’ve been deliberating for a couple days now and have decided to discuss in-depth about Kim Dokja and the tendencies of putting his life on the line. For most of the novel, I was split on whether I should view KDJ as a self-sacrificial bastard or a suicidal character. And by the end, I’ve reached the conclusion that he is both.

Before I elaborate further, it should be noted that while we all meme about KDJ’s dying count, he actually isn’t that careless with his life. What I mean is he sacrifices himself usually as a last resort, plans A to F didn’t work and it’s the only option left to hope for kimcom’s safety-ditch effort. Usually. We’ll circle back to that when we bring up OD. But his sacrifices are always done as granting his companions salvation, utterly blind to how they feel about it. But to understand his constant need to do this you have to first start with where he learned how to love. Lee Sookyoung’s love was sacrificial, she’d take the brunt of her husband’s rage to shield KDJ, she’d take on blame for his death and be incarcerated for years so Kim Dokja won’t discover the truth. All of this, in my opinion, unbeknownst to KDJ, imprinted onto him this interpretation of love. As nobody else until the scenarios began had loved him (Yes HSY technically but he doesn’t know that). Which gives the irony that multiple characters KDJ resent in the story such as Kim Namwoon, his mother, the constellations are ultimately revealed to be reflections of himself.

Another component to his self-sacrificing is “Kim Dokja the reader”. I’m not going to dive deep into how orv interweaves dissociation and escapism into its narrative, I’ll do that some other day. But KDJ views himself as the reader, an outsider, the sole member in the audience watching the story unfold before him. Yes he grants commentary, the players notice and acknowledge his existence, but he isn’t part of the play. So if he decides to step out of the auditorium for a while, if he decides to leave a bookmark where he left off and close the book, nothing should change. The story will continue in his absence, the characters cannot possibly miss him because Kim Dokja was not a character. He was not part of their world so even if he’s gone, the ending will still happen. And that is something I want to stress here.

KDJ says “he wants to see a certain story’s epilogue”. Specific choice of words, “see”. He doesn’t say he’ll be part of it,that he’ll be with them, or any close variation of those phrases.

This is where I want to diverge to talk about KDJ's suicidality. You can say “Ok then, KDJ has a clear goal in mind to reach the ending he desires. Yes he may feel the need to step out of the story every now and then, but he does so reluctantly. So obviously, he doesn’t want to die.” And you wouldn’t be wrong really but that simplifies it to an overwhelming degree. That’s how I initially thought of it until I realized how complicated it actually is. Because most people who deal with suicidal thoughts aren’t searching for death but rather feel there’s no other choice. It often isn’t as clear cut as 1863 YJH who, anyone that read this arc will say with certainty that he was suicidal. Yes KDJ isn’t chanting in his mind over and over that he wants to die but why does he want to live? To see the proper ending of a web novel that stopped him from attempting again to begin with. Over the course of orv he finds people he loves and who love him back deeply. People he longs to live for but despite that because of the disconnect between them, his self-loathing, accompanied with what I said before, believing he has no other way out of these threatening situations. Yeah it’s to save his companions but in the end Kim Dokja still feels the need to die. Even if you do not see KDJ as a suicidal character, it is undeniable that so much revolving him, the impact it has on those who care for him, and the visceral descriptions used to convey their thoughts, is a direct metaphor for that.

Or in a few cases, straight up what’s going on and now we arrive at what I think was the final straw for Kim Dokja. Meeting the Oldest Dream. For me, this is THE scene of orv. The biggest twist and what finally irreparably broke KDJ. Prior to this, Kim Dokja had become the “Enemy of the story” but it was unlike his previous dances with death. This time he truly had no intention of dying, he wants to be a part of the ending with his companions, he understands now that his sacrifices do hurt them. That according to him “I, someone of no redeeming quality, could be loved by the others.” That he is a character and that just maybe, he does deserve to live happily ever after with them. And then Kim Dokja meets a 15-year old boy with the same face as his, doodling in a notebook his ideas for Ways of Survival and a notification tells him to ‘Please end the Oldest Dream’. All of that progress is shattered in an instant.

KDJ tries to excuse himself by recalling his promise to SP to kill OD but we all know if that was any other kid, he would not have tried to kill them. He would’ve hesitated much more, he’d look for a loophole, he would’ve tried talking which is his biggest strength for every corner he gets into. Killing them would not be the first option but now it is. Because this isn’t an instance of sacrifice anymore, KDJ is sick of himself. OD is a presence that confirms KDJ’s worst fears. That he’s meant to be weak and pitiful and alone, that he was always an outsider, that he unintentionally causes pain and misfortune to people he loves, that everyone would be perfectly fine and better even without him. And Kim Dokja is the physical manifestation of them: a monster. And there’s only one way to get rid of this monster.

The chain of events from him swinging his sword at OD, trying to stab himself with the blade only for YJH to stop it desperately with his hand, everyone restraining and begging him to stop, KDJ crying and screaming for SP + the other Outer Gods to kill OD. Everyone else is forgiving him and KDJ is only thinking of getting a blade.

This is Kim Dokja’s relapse. It’s real, it’s harrowing, and he never recovers from it. He reaches the conclusion that he has to be alone, it’s his atonement, it's what he deserves. So he splits himself 49-51. I interpreted this when I first read it as presenting 49% of what you believe people want to see. More real than a facade but it’s not the true you. The true, fucked up version of who you are is trapped in a prison of your making, trapped in a darkness you feel you don’t deserve to escape. Which is why it’s so powerful that KimCom went after that 51%. They didn’t want just their version of KDJ, they wanted everything KDJ is including the larger side of him that he wishes didn’t exist. But the plan fails, they managed to turn that full stop into a comma but they couldn’t save KDJ. Because you can’t drag someone out of that train, out of that mentality, you can’t force someone to love themself. All you can do is reach out to any corner, every worldline you can and let them know you’ll always love them. That you’ll always love every aspect of their story and hope that perhaps one day, they’ll accept your hand and believe it.

[ID: Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint art by Blackbox: first of Kim DOkja smiling, seen through a space in a bookshelf, and second of astronaut Yoo Joonghyuk floating upside down as letters float around him. End ID]

[tamaharu]

hsy: there goes 49!kdj, lost in thought as usual. i wish i knew what he was thinking about. maybe hes pondering his lost memories? i know after my first major avatar split i had difficulty coping with knowing i had lost something, but being unsure to whether or not it was an important part of me, as well as the split feeling of understanding i wasnt completely myself, yet still feeling whole. poor guy..

49!kdj: i wonder if hsy yjh and i ever had sex and i just dont remember it.

[delicatetrashyouth]

Orv rant cause I can't for the love of God get Han sooyoung OUT OF MY MIND.

I read orv some time ago and I have no qualms with it. None whatsoever, it's perfect. But I have this big regret of not understanding Han sooyoung better. She's one of the key characters. She's one of our beloved trio, the author and what not-

Just as much as I love joongdok, I'm such a sucker for yoohankim. And it hurts not understanding her actions, her emotions and her feelings. Not only regarding herself but about her relationship with others involved too.

That part of her, chasing after Kim dokja when he's about to enter the subway. You know what I mean. I know that it's emotional. I know that it's such a beautiful scene. And that's why..I want to feel it too. Not only just that one part but the entirety of the novel.

I WANT TO KNOW. I WANT TO FEEL THE INTENSITY OF HER EMOTIONS. I WANT TO- A;KJSHDFLKJH

If you ask me why HSY did that, how did she felt, what made her do this or that- I wouldn't know. Even if you ask me to take a guess, I would have no idea.

And this thing is eating me alive. I want to know her better. I want to understand her character. I want to know her circumstances, her ideals, her morals, her drive, her passion, her reason to cry, let go or hold on- OKAY *deep breath*

Thank you for reading my absolute brainrot till the end, now I'll free you of your suffering.

[aingeal98]

Orv on the brain again but I really can't get over Han Sooyoung's future clone travelling back in time, possessing her tween body while she sleeps, and using every moment to write a story in order to keep one guy alive. And then when teen HSY starts getting dreams about the story her future self is writing and uses the dreams as writing material for herself because fuck it if you're getting possessed might as well get a skill out of it, the teen boy her older self is trying to keep alive accuses her of plagiarism. Plagiarising herself even though neither of them know it. And so teen HSY sends him anon hate and also writes hate comments about the story her older self is spending every minute of her time conscious writing. And she doesn't have a fuckin clue. Neither of them do. They are the universe's favourite little cosmic joke and they won't understand how deep their own lore goes until the feelings are too real for them to do anything but repeat the cycle. Like. One version of herself sacrifices herself for this guy and another version meets him for the first time and they're both like "Damn what an annoying loser." The layers and complexities that go into the doksoo Ultimate Story: Clown to Clown Communication are a marvel to read.

[rikan-oo]

So I was thinking about creating a loose list of recs for ORV fans or, in other words, "If you liked ORV, you also may like this." I decided to add things less obvious because I think people already read works like Trash of Count's Family, etc.

Princess Tutu

“The beginning of a story is a sudden event; the start, a happy accident, the end, the fate for which it's meant. A story that never ends is a sad fate.”

Let's start with Princess Tutu (PT), anime, not manga because they're different. I watched it about a week before ORV and after finishing both, I can't help but notice their similarities. However, meanwhile, ORV is about the relationship between the reader, the author, and the protagonist, and PT is more about the relationship between the author and their creation: the story and its characters. Don't let the name fool you, don't be like me. It's much darker than I expected from this style and genre. Be ready for angst.

Plot: Ahiru is a small duck in a pond. One day she notices a dancing boy with a very sad gaze. Boy every day goes to dance near the pond and the little duck is completely mesmerized by him. She can't help but notice sadness and loneliness in his dance. She wants to make this boy smile and at that moment a writer Droselmeir appears. He tells her that she could do this by collecting shards of his broken heart but under some conditions. He gives her a magic pendant that can transform her, first into an ordinary human girl, then into the graceful ballerina Princess Tutu, a fictional character from the tale that was doomed for tragedy in the original story.

Later we find out that this city is kinda enchanted by Droselmeir's tale (reverse isekai before it became mainstream) and some characters broke out of the tale like the boy by the lake - Mytho or Raven - the villain of this tale. Tale elements blend interestingly in the city and its residents.

Also, I have no idea wtf is happening with the main characters' dynamic in this complicated rectangle, but there is no straight explanation for this.

I can't help but see some parallels between Mytho - KDJ, Fakir - both YJH & HSY, Ru - HSY, and Droselmeir - Dokkaebi. I love how the story describes characters doomed by narrative and the struggles of being a writer. Also, all of these subtle references to fairytales at the beginning of the episode? Love it. I bet there are more references for the ballet part, but I probably didn't get it. I gently encourage you to check it out. (Definitely not gently, I'm as desperate as Kim Dokja trying to advertise TWSA to other people)

“May those who accept their fate be granted Happiness, may those who defy their fate be granted Glory.”

Miss not Sidekick

It's a much simpler read, just to chill and have fun while laughing at Mc shenanigans. Plot: Typical isekai story, where Mc is a fan of the internet novel of the reverse harem genre. When isekaied decided to invent popcorn and enjoy full time 4d immersion in the story.

There are not so many similarities in themes like with Princess Tutu, but more the role of MC – Latte as reader. I liked how she continued to behave like a spectator of a story inside Isekai world, treating it like she's inside a special 4D theater, not existing in this world as a part of it, until she couldn't.

Until her 4th wall is shattered (*badabums* it's a bad pun, she doesn't have it like kdj) and she realizes she could actually die, (quite shocking I know). Also, MC invents BL for this world and converts other people into it. Overall, the art style is different from other isekai romfant and it's something you need time to get used to, but after a while, you understand it suits perfectly for the narrative and silly tone of the comic.

Inso's Law or My Life as an Internet Novel

I feel like it's more reverse isekai similar to orv, where the story becomes part of your life. But if in KDJ's case, this transition is obvious and life-crashing, then in MC's situation is really creepy. It blends seamlessly into her regular life making her feel insane because everything remains the same except having a whole new friend who behaves like your bestie and a different school, where everything starts to feel like a romantic novel full of clichés. MC like KDJ is also unreliable in her perception of others here and thinks her knowledge of clichés like a reader-outsider makes her more omnipotent than she really is. Too bad they used 3 person POV, so it's really obvious, but funny nevertheless. (One of the cases where she thinks one of her classmates is a girl pretending to be a boy cause of some kind of cliché family drama, when in fact it's just a boy and I find it funny how this classmate looks like Jang Hayoung twin and have similar fate, poor souls) guess she also has similarities in her character to pre-scenario or regular life KDJ. They both seem to have this introverted avoidance type of personality. I'm curious about supernatural events happening in manhwa and I hope we'll get some explanation for it.

Pandora Hearts

Nice little thing with funny and cute tea parties that everyone would enjoy. 😍

SHHH, nothing about the plot. Let it be a small surprise for you.

It's all vibes and similar tropes now, folks.

Like dynamic between the main trio: Gilbert - Oz - Alice YJH - KDJ - HSY. Also this time loop thing? Daddy issues? Self-sacrifice as a form of love? Ugh. (Also, I need this scene with Oz and Brake "Where in the world are you?" But with KDJ. Maybe I even draw it).

It's all for now, maybe I'll write more. Please share the recs if you have them!

[mae-i-scribble]

tonight i was thinking about orv’s theme about how yjh as a character, and to a larger extent people, will in some ways always be unknowable. (orv spoilers following, read at your own risk)

i feel like i’ve seen a few posts on here that somewhat take this theme to an extreme, leaning *hard* into that “kdj doesn’t actually know yjh like at all” which while on the right track, i feel completely misses the point. Orv goes out of its way to showcase that kdj actually understands yjh to a scary degree, even once they’re out of the early scenarios and the gap between kdj’s knowledge and yjh’s personhood grows larger, there are still things about yjh that *only* kdj can fundamentally understand. And I don’t think that the novel does anything to discredit that understanding, only says that there is much more to yjh. In the same manner, even if you’ve known someone for years, spent all your time with them, there can and will always be new things for you to learn about them. The danger that orv speaks of is trusting in that assumption, that your understanding will be enough and you don’t have to keep an eye out for more developments. That the person you know will forever stay the same. And this isn’t a kdj problem either, fundamentally a lot of the big disagreements that happen between kdj and yjh in the latter half of the novel are born from both of them misconstruing what the other is thinking, trusting that their understanding of the other is deep enough to base their judgements off of. (Post first murim destruction, divorce arc, yjh thinking kdj scattered his soul on purpose, etc.)

As always with orv’s themes, we can view it in a meta sense as well. Kdj’s understanding of yjh as a character is so complete that it’s nearly flawless- until the story begins to deviate and a yjh grows outside the parameters that kdj’s judgements are based on. Even before then, there was always more to yjh- but as readers, we can only understand a character as much as we see them. What you come away with from a story is your complete understanding, there is no growth outside of those boundaries because then it wouldn’t be an understanding of *that* character, you would be putting your own ideas and such into it. But talk to another person, and suddenly the same character you understand so clearly becomes someone else. Talk to the author, and they say something completely different. And can one truly claim to understand a character when the story will never talk about them in every conceivable way? What does it take to truly understand such a thing? Learning that 1863rd round hsy wrote ways of survival with such limited resources and knowledge on who yjh even is, and yet despite it all, still manages to write a story that captures so much of his essence. As orv readers, we know it isn’t everything- it could never encapsulate all of yjh, but the idea that even when one knows nearly nothing, you can still put on a facade of understanding.

We can get into a chicken or the egg argument with this, as 1863!hsy dictates how yjh acts with her writing, and that yjh in the 1863rd round is the one she comes to know before ever starting this story, but when it comes to this theme of the unknowable in the people around us, I don’t think this sort of debate is worth much. We know that yjh exists outside the story written, and how much of him is determined by hsy’s writing is negligible because no matter what, he always grows beyond it. Whether as 1864 or secretive plotter, it all comes back to that same point of there is always more to see within a person.

I don’t know quite where I want to go with this, only that I wanted an outlet for some of these thoughts inside my head, but one of the best things about this theme for me is how it answers itself. When the people around you become unrecognizable, what should you do? And orv says to reach out. To try. To understand. Kdj loses access to omniscient reader several times but always, always gains it back in orv (as far as i remember), because at the end of the day, he is not someone who stays trapped in his idea of who he knows yjh to be. Yjh too, even at the end of orv, is trying to learn more and more about kdj. Only when you are willing to hear out the other person, to learn about them every day, does this unknowable aspect become something less daunting.

[skylark325]

Omniscient Readers Viewpoint Read Through

Chapter 1-10

>I adore this line

>being able to read kdj's thoughts in the first person makes the story so much more intense. like understanding his subconscionce helps me gain a better grasp on just how apethetic and yet selectively caring he can be. like reading the webtoon it felt like it went from 0 to 100 pretty fast and kdj acclimated so well because he knew the story before hand. but reading the story and having greater insight on his personality from the start shows how different he was and how it contributed to his eventual scheming through the scenarios. (i really hope i’m making sense cuz words aren’t wording today)

>the way i freak out when this happens to me on AO3, Dokja stronger than me fr

>GILYOUNG WAS WITH HIS MOM? did they mention that in the webtoon? i had no idea omg so does that mean he saw his mom go poof? and kdj gave him the insect but not to his mom so he likely lived knowing he could’ve given the insect to his mom? oh my god this is fucking with my head

>kdj sure was a different breed from the start 💀

>famous last words

> ….ok (sorry my humour is juvenile T-T)

>kdj said ☝️🤓

>OH MY GOD so Gilyoung’s mother abandoned him to join in the beat down of the grandma???? and the poor bby saw all that? damn

>i just realised, the first four constellations to take interest in kdj have played such important roles as the story progresses. like idk if this is obvious to ppl but Abysmal black flame dragon being hsy’s constellation, demon like judge of fire being our yaoi queen, prisoner of golden headband’s role when kdj became a constellation feels strangely nostalgic now. like they stayed by his side this whole time. yet to see what secretive plotter will do tho, according to the webtoon they’re definitely suspicious.

>oh they changed bastard to punk in the webtoon loll. can i expect more cursing cuz i need kdj to curse more XD

>*sigh* high schoolers

>UNPROVOKED?

>damn bihyung shut up 😭

>he’s hereeee 💃

>a ‘rugged hand’? not kdj simping over yjh’s HAND? kdj freak confirmed

—

That was fun! Pretty similar to the webtoon but there were so many little nuances I hadn’t seen before and it was an interesting new perspective on the characters. Can’t wait to read ahead!

Next: Ch 11-20

[insomaniacat]

tbh after i read orv i had to say that hsy was the character i understood the least - i couldn’t understand her motivations and actions, and by the second half of the novel she’s someone else entirely. but I think as i almost conclude my first reread it makes more sense why

first of all, hsy’s lived 50+ years by then. she’s mellowed out. she may have gotten rid of most of her memories from that time by the time kdj finds her again, but she’s still had to live thru those 50 years and has been semi-conscious even after Yuri di Astriel’s ego tool over her body.

we didn’t meet the whole hsy at the beginning of orv. she was only about a half of the ‘original’ hsy. it seems like the hsy that went to the 1863rd worldline was evidently the one who knew more about twsa (given how she was able to get to the 95th scenario AND became a constellation similarly to kdj (1864 hsy was convinced abfd was the sponsor she needed so was not able to become a constellation in the scenarios)

so when 1863 hsy bestowed visions to hsy and her story [Predictive Plagiarism], hsy changed. i feel almost as if she matured after 1863 hsy helped her. before, when she started the scenarios, she was self-centered and repeatedly described to be someone who would betray others for her own benefit, and her change was even unusual for kdjc (evident thru the amount of times jhw clashed with her later on).

hsy is a different character by the second half of the novel - whole. and maybe this is why she was one of the first people to realize 49% kdj was not the whole kdj. because she was once a ‘half’, too. from the beginning, we only knew the ‘selfish’ part of her, which has never really left her. she was ready to sacrifice the world for her one reader if she could, ultimately resigning herself to to cling onto hope and write twsa and orv for him.

i can’t claim i fully understand hsy yet - maybe that will take a few more rereads for me. maybe it’s because i personally do not empathize with her as much as everyone else in kdjc. but i think maybe reading orv - a story longer than the bible that she wrote - brings me a little closer to her

[orviposition]

one of the many things i hate orv for is making me be so dependant on yoo joonghyuk getting a happy ending— it's all kim dokja's fault i swear i wish for it so bad. the thought of this man not being able to be at peace and happy in a world where his friends and family are there without the scenarios, makes me mad with a grief i didnt know i was capable of feeling for a 'character' 🥲

(what's also funny is that yoo joonghyuk's happy ending, where his friends and family are happy and well, kim dokja is also there standing besides them. But kim dokja cannot even imagine a world where he can be together with them without 'failing' and atoning. 💀✌️) a happy ending for yoo joonghyuk would be one with you as well kim dokja you fool

aughh anon the entire content of this ask has been on my mind for months. do we have some sort of a mind link be honest. also this will have spoilers for epilogue and side story below

aghh kdj wishing for and working so hard for yjh's happiness truthfully translated into us wishing for the happiness of that sunfish too I'd say. 1863 abandoned lives and worlds existing solely to meet his sponsor and find the reason he exists, which is also linked to said sponsor, made him feel liberated and at peace. a feeling which only kdj, said sponsor, took issue with. his guilt is so huge, so strong, he cannot fathom that yjh will not resent him after having his tragedy be used as someone's sustenance.

after kdj split himself into 51 and 49 in order to atone and sustain the world in which yjh and the rest of kimcom will continue to live, he'd already started imagining how their lives would be. 49 and yjh would search for tls123, 49 would read hsy's novel, 49 would attend ljh's graduation etc. what he didnt count for was kimcom regressing to get him back.

after the group regression, yjh says that his story has already ended now that his reader is no longer there. some time later, astronaut yjh sets on a space journey to spread orv and piece kdj together except that he fully expected to die and the mission to fail because just like kdj had learned to live from him, yjh no longer knows how to live without kdj anymore. in fact before sp and 999 gang save him and biyoo appears yjh fully expects that his -- will be 'death' (as if kdj would allow that smh).

after nearly a hundred years he descends into lhh's worldline. i think most of us know that lhh is 49 kdj's reincarnation by now, what i didnt catch the first time around however was that yjh and lhh met right after lhh considered committing suicide (lee "i have no trauma" hakhyun is a fucking liar) but chickened out in the end

a few thousands more years pass and yjh returns to the 1864th worldline. he talks more, he smiles easier, he no longer cares what his -- will be. and hes let kdj choose for himself whether or not he wants to return. he has been kdj's reader for thousands of years, he Understands what it means to get the will to survive by reading someone's story.

and in the side story he wants to take that choice back. he'll bring kdj back himself. cuz hes obsessed. hsy failed so now is his turn. except that his turn hasnt started yet. so who knows.

anw tldr yeah you cannot divorce kdj from yjh's (happy) ending. if any number yjh hears abt kdj in whatever way shape or form he'll get curious abt him. 41, for example. even after excluding lhh, 41 got curious abt kdj. hsy shows him a happy memory of our yjh which included kdj and 41 fucking collapsed (i become more excited abt the side story the more it progresses) and lost consciousness. it was such a strong memory of kdj and kimcom eating yjh's cooking and kdj saying how he cooks so well and he should bring more beef next time that hsy described it as yjh dying from happiness. yjhs -- is kdj related in one way or another. kdj just has to Get It that yjh cannot be happy without him

[indigomono]

thinking about orv. how most people (including myself) started because of joongdok and some without knowing they weren’t canon lol.

my experience with orv was actually funny because i knew jd were only a fandom pair, so i didn’t have high expectations. however, while i read it i couldn’t even understand why they were so famous and half of the fandom liked them as a couple? me, a person who takes in bromance as canon romance in their heart, couldn’t see the hype?? that was a first. at that point (half of the novel) i already loved all the characters and didn’t care anymore about shipping, tho the other half sold me enough to like jd casually. THE THING IS orv is a novel made to hit the most when you reach the epilogue. those last 20 chapters redefine completely the reader's perception about what is orv, it changes orv to something even greater and emotional than it already was. when you finish it and you look at the broader picture and realize what just happened it’s like . you feel like you read the greatest love story of the century. take it in a romantic/platonic way of love or not, you actually don’t even care because of how much it transcends everything… you feel like it’s something bigger than love.

so yeah, i’m here enjoying jd and i personally think the cp vibes are too strong to ignore idk there’s far too many romantic tropes and that nirvana arc is an allegory on its own, BUT don’t get it twisted. whatever they have going on (+ hsy) is something so greater that just romantic love won’t ever be able to compete with. it’s soulmatism at its og form.

besides the epilogue shift, it’s also a matter of knowing the characters, after 500+ chapters you can tell when they’re lying (kdj i’m looking at you), what their actions mean and why they behave in a certain way, so when you look back there’s subtle and odd interactions everywhere. yjh smiling at kdj in the first chapters, for example, waiting for him to get out of the river for days and feeling disappointed when thinking he died— those were weird WEIRD things our yjh wouldn’t do normally, for anyone! much less for a random guy he just met!!! but we, as readers who have yet to know what is normal for yjh, don’t find it strange. in conclusion, everything you didn’t give much thought in your first read becomes gayer.

in conclusion, you naively hop in for the black & white gays and end up getting a much more sinister angsty queerer existencial something-something you will only understand when you finish the story. you won’t fully get orv until you reach the very last chapter and read the very last line!!!!

[umbrvx]

i like ur art. its great and interesting!! i really like your artstyle and i really like the way u draw hsy, yjh, and kdj. you captured them so well in terms of vibes/character. also i was wondering do u have any advice to improve on drawing anatomy/poses/faces?

wahh thank you so much...!! i feel like im still trying to figure them out in a lot of ways but i do really like ironing out my visual interpretations of them so im really happy to hear if people like what im coming up with

also anon you super activated the part of my brain that cant help but yap about art theory... i spent some time writing as many tips as i could think of. unfortunately i dont think i have the time currently to do a fully illustrated guide, but ill still try to include some visual examples:

[incoming wall of text lol]

ANATOMY:

to preface i think that like 100% of the time you should reference a real life photo for anatomy rather than other artwork or drawn references. the best way to learn the body is by… well, actually looking at the body! but also artwork is informed by a person's own artistic ability/stylization choices/sense of idealism, so while looking at art can help give you an idea on how to break down forms, i think you would be best served observing real life references. i labor on this point because i do think that having over relied on drawn reference material and avoiding photographic references on the basis of not being interested on realism hindered me as a largely self-taught artist as a kid, so i want to encourage live or photographic reference since anatomy is one of the foundations from which everything else is built on. that being the case, all of my doodles i'm doing for this are going to be for the sake of example rather than to strictly say how you should or should not be drawing something

-> when you are doing a study of a photo, just try copying it as best as you can. pay close attention to the natural lines and shapes of the body -- the S-curve shape of the leg, the triangular shape of the forearm, the trapezoid shape of hips/thighs when they sit, and so on. note where the body folds or squishes or pulls; how mass will shift to accommodate a certain position. if a form is hard to visualize, focus on the negative space and carve that out, rather than strictly drawing the positive space.

don't expect to get it perfect the first time. in fact, iterate on it multiple times to build understanding. try doing it to a timer of 15, then 10, then 5 minutes. doing this will force you to have to prioritize the most important shapes. you can help reinforce this by using a thicker brush or a brush with no pen pressure (no joke ms paint works great for this) to force you to be loose and not become preoccupied with details.

-> pinterest is a great resource for finding and compiling photo reference material

-> organic shapes are curved, so embracing/emphasizing that (particularly for the extremities) can help make your drawings look more natural or fluid

POSES: -> it all begins & ends with contrapposto… you've probably heard of the line of action, which is related. if you're offsetting the shoulders & hips, it: makes poses more natural, more dynamic, and helps the pose sort of "draw itself" -- the legs will follow the direction of the hips, and you can use the arms to reinforce the angles

-> context is key. don't ask: what pose should i draw? instead ask: what do i want this character to convey? what does happiness, anger, sadness, and so forth look on this particular character? how do they express that? consider these drawings: these are both ostensibly the same pose, but look at how changing just the shape of the spine recontextualizes it.

for more on pose design i recommend watching Tracer & Pose Design 101 - The Animation of Overwatch by New Frame Plus (i promise this is a genuinely super informative video).

to expand on this, in general, all of the components of a piece (background, composition, pose, etc.) are best considered in conjunction rather than separately. it is difficult to choose a pose and then choose a background because they are missing the context that would make a piece cohesive. when you are planning a drawing, try to begin with your general concept/idea/prompt and then do several thumbnails -- small and quick doodles that should take no longer than 5 minutes each -- developing it: you may find that the pose and bg will naturally fall into place.

-> silhouette: the degree to which you need to push this varies by style but generally speaking the pose needs to be readable; i.e. instantly recognizable. try to keep important elements of the gesture outside of the silhouette. for example, if the character is pointing, keep that arm out of the interior of the body. the same pose can be more or less readable or dynamic depending on where the character is pointed in relation to the viewer

-> exaggeration!! goes along with the previous point. push the pose as much as you can (and what makes sense for your style) to communicate your pose as clearly and as intensely as possible.

FACES: -> i highly recommend the app Handy Art Reference Tool by Belief Engine for all things related to drawing hands/heads/feet. its on both android and ios. it isn't free -- it costs around $3 -- but that is seriously such a small price to pay for the amount of utility you get out of it: the hands models are fully poseable (there's also pose presets), you can rotate the head models however you want, and there is 3-point customizable lighting. it is really helpful for getting those super tricky and hyperspecific head angles that you just can't find a real life reference for. that being said given that there's only a few different head model variants, bear in mind how differences in features can affect what exactly a face will look like in those angles.

-> i still recommend doing studies of real people. as with anything else, learning generalized proportions is important, even if you are going to later on bend or break this depending on style

-> as for my own approach... it kind of depends on the style i'm doing at that particular time. for my paintings (what id consider my main style) i approach a character with a few real-world features in mind and then apply them to the best of my ability. it usually will take a few iterations to land on an interpretation i really like as i try out different things. a lot of the face also gets developed during rendering rather than through my initial sketch too, as i adjust for lighting and correct proportions on the fly

(look how much this image changes between sketch and render lol)

if i were to recommend anything, i think it would be to nail down your most distinct features first -- the ones that will make your character's face recognizable, and could apply regardless of art style. in my case with kim dokja, i knew when i first started drawing him that i wanted to give him a longer face and down-turned eyes. when i decided to do the disco elysium inspired set, in which i was breaking out of my comfort zone by letting go of any idealizations focusing on conveying characterization/making them feel "real", i landed on some more specific traits (defined lower lids/perpetually tired eyes/eyebags(?) the crease there idk how to describe it) which i continue to try to evoke even if im drawing something much more cartoony

(pictured are my first kdj -> disco elysium style -> my post de-style kdj)

as a side note, this very same process changed yjh much more dramatically

(^ that first guy is mad someone else)

those handful of key features will be the thing that you can then take into a simpler style and simplify or exaggerate to whatever degree suits you. you can also play with shape theory (square = sturdy/solid, circle = natural/smooth/welcoming, triangle = energetic/dangerous). shape theory doesn't necessarily need to be so rigid -- you can combine shapes as you please to convey whatever vibe you're going for -- so please think of it as a tool that may help rather than a rigid law you must abide by.

-> expressions: exaggerate them. thats kind of it!! make it big!!! you wanna be able to really feel those emotions. the principles of squash & stretch help here: think of how the muscles move when you, say, open the eyes or mouth really big. as one side of the face stretches open, the other side squashes to accommodate it

even without changing the position of the jaw here, moving the nose and scrunching the eyes will sell the expression

you can also play with squash/stretch to break proportions to sell a feeling more

since expressions are just, well, poses for the face, everything else for poses applies here (and facial expressions & pose should also be considered in tandem). while the term contrapposto itself just refers to the offset of the shoulders & hips, the similar principle of asymmetry also carries here as that will help make the expression a bit more dynamic.

and i think... that's it!! all i can think of at least. i hope it helps anon!!!

[sdeprived]

My hsy mental gymnastics

After finishing ORV (main story) Han Sooyoung remained the character I found the hardest to understand and empathize or form my opinions with. Like it's not that I didn't like her, I loved how she's written a lot, but I just couldn't figure her out as much as I did with the others, and I also felt some kind of... rejection? towards her that I couldn't quite explain bc she literally didn't do anything that I would dislike, so I've spent a lot of time rereading some parts as well as the Side Story and trying to understand her and be sure that I am judging her from a rational pov, bc this is how I like to analize media.

I like treating fictional characters as puzzles that I can arm and disarm to learn how they work individually and as a whole, and when I run into one that is difficult or evokes me negative feelings, for me is like a challenge to try again and analize them better.

So yeah... When I don't particularly understand or like a character, I usually become obsessed with them trying to figure out why lmao... It sounds like a paradox but I do really enjoy doing all this mental work.

So although I can't say that I've finished my personal task of actively trying to understand Han Sooyoung again, I can say that I DEFINITELY know now why I was kinda rejecting her... and it is because I relate to her a lot.

Lmao I can't believe this happened again. I looove characters who I identify with but the characters who are actually similar to me? No sir that's instinctive rejection. Does this make me kin Dokja or Han Sooyoung more? I don't fucking know anymore.

For now I'll keep spinning her inside my little brain and see what I can gain out of it, but this exercise has actually made me more fond of her in a way.

This is not an analysis post, I was just ranting about my mental gymnastics. I'll probably try and write something when I'm finished :)

-Sleep🌵