#but also the tax system is a bit different and of profit isn't that big maybe it's better like that

[goldenpinof]

Hi, anon from the long post here. Ngl I wrote that when I was kind of in a bad mood and just thought it would be ignored, I do stand by a lot of the points though.

When I mentioned hostility I meant more in how recent things have panned out. I didn't mean that they both went into the agreement with reservations but rather as things have gone downhill their relationship has become less amicable - hence the 'nobody takes me seriously' insta post. However I see why putting that at the start of the post would have been confusing.

I will admit that when I looked up doomed touring (the company) it was before they had released any documentation so I did just assume it was a 50/50 split. That being said, with a small company like that they aren't going to vote on every decision so even if Dan has the majority of voting rights it doesn't mean that the management won't go behind his back - especially when they have the added influence of being his management team. I really do suspect that the main communication between the promoters and Dan is his management which is why it took so long for him to find out about Iceland. That would also make it easier for them to finalize decisions without him (again hence the bitter insta story).

As for the obligations bit, if he did agree to a marketing strategy and then dismissed it then that would be him not meeting his obligations? I'm assuming he did everything listed in his contract but there probably would have been assumptions that he would put more effort into getting out content as was hinted at in WIQY which took a long time to materialise. And when he did make content he decided to put it on his second channel despite not having used it for so long. I'm not saying it was a really bad thing that Dan didn't promote as much as he should have been doing, I just hope that he acknowledges that it played a role in lower ticket sales and might explain why his management might be less eager to share things with him.

“then he didn't upload them [dd] nearly as often as he was promising despite it being the best way to drive sales”

(using your captions for clarity)

Yeah I agree with you I looked back and I'd just completely missed the last lot of uploads. I just remembered the massive gaps between the first couple that came out and I was going off if that, and the promised ones that just never got posted like louises. They would have worked better if they'd been more regular and less cut up, especially as most of them were kind of just nothing rants and needed the guest sections to balance them. I think it was the second insta livestream that he did that he said his management was making him do DD? It was one of them at least, he's been very clear that it wasn't what he wanted for his channel.

“It could be that they have just cut him out of these decisions since he's obviously going to push for things that aren't going to make money.”

Like I mentioned above just because he has voting rights doesn't mean that they're always going to listen to him, especially because they have added authority to make decisions as his management. By 'cut him out' I basically just meant that it seemed like they were finalizing things without telling him.

Also even if it is Dan's money, they are probably contracted to get a certain portion of the profits so they will want to protect that. As his management they can make excuses as to why the shows need to be cancelled and it does seem like Dan has given them too much freedom. It really feels like he should be the ones on contact with the promoters.

As for the not cancelled shows it's likely that they maybe they wanted to cancel them but couldn't due to the venues contract but I do agree that Dan probably pushed for them to go ahead. They might not be as fussed about them as it's going to be a lot cheaper to get the equipment between those shows than it is to Iceland for example.

Also I think you've misinterpreted what a tour promoter actually does? They will provide advertisment but their main job is to book the venue, make sure people can buy tickets, and arrange for the transportation of people and equipment between venues. They do 'promote' the tour as well but usually the management will have to push for it since advertisment will eat into their profits more than the extra ticket sales will bring in.

The original art was most likely commissioned by Dan and then given to the promoter to use. I would assume it came from the same people who did his merch. If he already had the templates and his management were hanging back to see which tour dates they were actually going to include it would make sense that he would just get impatient and use his own. Maybe he thought it would make his management more likely to let the Iceland show go ahead?

“he really isn't used to working in an environment where he has somebody to answer to”

Yeah I agree with you that YouTube were unprofessional. I do wish that he would see the positives though. Not a massive fan about how he twisted GANP and hometown show down to be things YouTube made him do. They were big opportunities and honestly probably not ones he deserved given he'd been off YouTube for so long. I really would like to hear the full story since I'm sure there was a lot that got left out.

I didn't mean that all of the Asia shows lost money, just that the trouble they had in the Philippines meant that they didn't end up making a profit for that leg. I thought they had some issues in Singapore as well? Maybe that was me misremembering stuff though.

“Dan clearly has issues with control, it feels really strange to me that he went all in with II and then when it came to his personal 'dream' project he pawned off half of the costs and responsibility on someone else”

Didn't they say they self funded II? They had the prize sponsorship sure but I don't think they paid for most of it. Idk it's lot to keep track of. I know he's got investors for this one which he was always going to need but I don't know why he didn't just put himself in charge of the company and contract the management on rather than going in with them. It would have made it much easier for him.

I don't want people to think I'm talking about this because I don't like Dan or whatever. I'm kind of indifferent to him this is all speculation of course, but the assumption of lots of phannies have that he did everything right and is being screwed over constantly isn't going to help. How can you learn from your mistakes if they're always somebody else's fault. If he's going to try for another tour he needs to accept that there are things he needs to do better.

Sorry for dumping this all here, the hardcore discourse blogs are all painfully dead. You can ignore it if you want.

i can't ignore it, what the hell reifdhjnewidskx

WARNING: 90% of it is alleged. in reality we know only crumbs of information. also there are things that i forgot about and couldn’t find.

i may jump from point to point and sometimes contradict my own words. it doesn’t mean that i don’t understand what i’m saying. it just means there are more than 1 or 2 possible things going on, but i’m incapable to structure my answer. since i don’t know if Dales Evans and Above the Fray are somehow connected other than having the same address, it’s hard to evaluate their roles. as was pointed out to me, Dales Evans work for dnp, helping them with taxes, accounts and etc. they prepare documents for dnp's companies. i can be 100% wrong about some things i said (i am. but it's too late to delete this.)

(putting it under read more because it’s too much)

again, if i don’t comment i probably semi-agree. for some reason i made the text in bold either when it’s your quotes or to highlight what the paragraph is about.

got it about hostility. i agree, that now Dan and his management are not on the best terms, that being said... i agree that the main communication between promoters and Dan goes through his managers (as it should) but that would mean that it's not the promoters who are screwing him over but his own “partners”. "That would also make it easier for them to finalize decisions without him (again hence the bitter insta story)" they literally can't do that 😂 sorry, it's so funny to me, because if they are actually doing what you just said, it's so messed up that he can try to sue them. "75% or more" - he has the majority, they all can fuck off. (LLP doesn’t have share capital so does % of voting rights and surplus assets show how much he invested in it? maybe). side note: i think they opened a new company aka Doomed Touring LLP to pay less taxes. it’s a common thing in a lot of countries. so who knows what kind of business relationships they have or if they even have any specifically within LLP. it can be just a company that is indicated in the documents. or it can be that Dan partnered with Dales Evans to fund the tour and Above the Fray has nothing to do with it (funds-wise). that would mean that Dales Evans can pressure him since they want not only their money back but also get some profit. but they can’t just dictate things or ignore Dan. also if the main communication between Dan and Dales Evans goes through Fleur Smith (aka Dan’s manager) and they can’t come to agreements in Dan’s favour but still exclude him from conversations - that’s messed up. i wonder if Iceland cancellation is any sign of this. the way it was communicated is very worrying. (i wonder if Dales Evans has anything to do with marketing, it’s a big company, so are they providing their marketing department to Dan? when Dan said there were 10 people whose job was to prepare, approve and proofread that promo image, did he mean his promoter’s team or someone else’s? because then, when it came to Warsaw/Helsinki/Amsterdam promo with a different design he explicitly said “who needs a promoter”.)

about obligations. in the 1st ask you said "Dan didn't fulfil his obligations to promote the show at the beginning" that's why i questioned the existence of the actual marketing strategy that he potentially would have to follow. we don't know if it was proposed and agreed to (other than dd. but having dd isn’t a strategy. it can be just one piece of a giant plan that should consist ticket prices, digital marketing, indoor/outdoor banners (that were spotted only in England?), interviews, etc. he had interviews but he promoted only like 2 of them? why?), thus we can't say that he didn't fulfil his obligations. but okay, option No 2: he did do everything that was listed in the initial plan for promo. it didn't work as they hoped it would. they wanted him to do more. okay? but that would require an additional plan with possible outcomes listed. and Dan had a right to say no if he didn't like the plan or its outcome, or didn't believe the team (or just didn't like their copywriting!). it doesn't mean that they should have just stopped trying. negotiations are the key. they could propose things, argue them, try to convince him, and ask for help ffs. Dan is a stubborn person, i don't deny it, but there are ways to make him do things.

dystopia daily: i found this masterpiece in the 1st IG liveshow, “i decided to come back to youtube somewhat because i have a contractual obligation to promote my tour..” did you mean that one? contractual obligations with fucking who? (and now we’re guessing)

“Also I think you've misinterpreted what a tour promoter actually does? They will provide advertisement but their main job is to book the venue, make sure people can buy tickets, and arrange for the transportation of people and equipment between venues....” - i know. but Dan mentions only his promoter when it comes to promo materials and communication with potential audience of the show (announcements, emails, etc.). i have to admit that i wasn’t giving Dan’s managers and partner company that big of a role in all this mess until your original ask. but i still think that they are here like a middleman between Dan and promoters, and also like a pocket with money (allegedly). i’m not saying that his promoter is paying for the materials from its pocket (re: “advertisement will eat into their profits more than the extra ticket sales will bring in”). they have a project, and a part of its budget must have been paid beforehand by the client aka Dan and co. but it’s true that they can’t jump higher than it was established. if promo expenses have 10k to spend then they have only 10k. you can’t really add much to it unless you rearrange the whole budget and cut something else in promo’s favour (or expand the budget, those things also happen). although, marketing team must be theirs and they must control the website. and that’s why Dan can’t fucking do anything with it (Copenhagen and Dublin are sold out but they are not listed as such in his promo banners. the website hasn’t been updated since they added Warsaw until yesterday?!?! do you see this shit, i’m shocked). if it was irl merch (= irl digital), come on now, it would be literally one phone call away. otherwise what the fuck is Dan’s management doing? website updates take 5 minutes.

you know, both GANP and hometown showdown were shit though. every time Dan tries to act and do something he clearly doesn’t like, it turns out to be the most disingenuous thing. i’m glad we know that he didn’t want to do it. i didn’t like the concepts anyway. it’s strange to throw Dan into something like that (and Phil as well). it’s so performative. and it felt like manipulation. YouTube wanted something from Dan and since Dan also wanted something from YouTube they had to come to agreement. Dan did what they asked for and YouTube didn’t. bitter.

ii Asia: them losing money in Manila doesn’t mean they didn’t make profit in Asia. we don’t know how much they lost and how much they got from other shows. in Singapore they got invited to formula 1, but i didn’t find anything about the losses (if anyone remembers something, please, throw it at me).

“I know he's got investors for this one which he was always going to need” - hold up, wait a minute :)) you know or you assume? because, for example, i don’t know that for a fact but it would be a logical assumption to make. so do you know something?

i don’t remember any mentions about ii being self-funded. but i do remember Rize banner missing at some m&gs. idk if that was accidental or because there was a contract only for specific places (thus not all shows were paid for by Rize money). Rize was made by YouNow, so they had enough money to fund the tour imo. were there “virtual goods” in Rize as well? now i wonder if we were sponsoring ii all that time by buying stickers or whatever 😂 (the answer is yes anyway).

if Dan goes for another tour i hope he gets a different promoter and sorts shit out with his management. and before the tour fixes irl merch. i know that this promoter is one of the biggest blah blah, but it’s not the only one. if Dan learns something, i hope it’s that he needs smaller venues and fewer shows (like someone said before). fewer shows can be done by smaller promoter. and i hope he thinks his marketing strategy through and through and creates plan B just in case. if he wants to go to Iceland but there are not enough Icelanders in his audience he can try to convince continental Europe to fly over. we’re willing to, he just needs to say a word instead of repeating the same joke 20 times.