#but Kishimoto is turning around and saying 'he was actually destined for this the whole time'. which just... i just really don't like it.

[orcelito]

I've been working on Finally finishing Naruto Shippuden (after being a Naruto fan for nearly 15 years), & I just finished episode 420. And I have some THOUGHTS about the "Naruto is the reincarnation of Ashura" thing. This started as just me rambling for my normal liveblog posting, but I had a LOT of thoughts about this actually, so I am presenting them to u all Now.

So. Naruto meeting the Sage of Six Paths! Cool!!! I'm finally learning about Naruto being the reincarnation of Ashura, which... honestly is not a choice that I like very much. Narratively speaking, I mean. The Point of Naruto's journey was that he was the underdog, the bottom of his class, the orphan that everyone hated and made fun of. Through hard work and perseverance, he managed to drag himself from being a complete social outcast to someone generally really loved and respected. That's compelling!!! It means a lot!!!

But then the show is like. "Oh...actually, he's the son of the fourth hokage. And Also, he's the reincarnation of the son of the literal creator of ninshuu aka the precursor of modern ninjutsu." I mind him being Minato's son less as a narrative choice (for reasons I will get into shortly), but making him Ashura's reincarnation?? I've got Several things that bug me about that.

So First, for him being Minato's son. It's not like that's ever Actually given him any sort of status (since most people don't know), & Minato was also kind of just a random guy?? Just incredibly skilled, enough so to become the 4th hokage. And then there's also Kushina, descended from a very successful and very Feared clan that ended up almost entirely killed bc of that fear. Naruto being an Uzumaki means great power, huge chakra reserves (not even including the extra chakra he gets from Kurama), & some innate skills (that Naruto mostly didn't inherit, but one can play pretend sometimes). BUT ALSO, they were almost entirely killed off. He's a survivor of his clan's genocide that happened well before he was even born, and he doesn't even REALIZE it yet. So even though being Minato's son means he's the son of a very influential person, it doesn't give him the same leverage as being a Senju or Uchiha would. And the clan he Does belong to bc of Kushina does not give him status either, bc they're almost all fuckin Dead. And we know that Minato is a Namikaze, but as for what that actually *means*.... it's basically nonexistent. There is no mention of a Namikaze clan. Minato was just a prodigy in his own right.

SO.... All that is to say that while appending Naruto's orphan story with a "well, Actually, his parents were very powerful and well respected" does discount it a little bit, it's still not Especially unique in terms of what other people in their world may experience (there are other descendants of current and/or former kage + Many other powerful clans running around) OR in the benefits that it gives him (essentially nothing, outside of his physical strength and the inheritance of Kurama himself)(which inheriting Kurama did grant him access to IMMENSE power, but it also was the source of So Much of his suffering growing up, so I think it balances out).

The "reincarnation of Ashura, son of the Sage of Six Paths" thing tho... that one really kinda does. At that point, Naruto is no longer just the orphaned son of two respected shinobi & the current jinchuuriki of the Kyuubi (something special, but not entirely original, given that there are Other jinchuuriki who are descendants of powerful shinobi). He is now something that NO ONE ELSE ALIVE can be. It is saying that He, above Everyone Else, is special in this way. Outside of Sasuke lol, but I'll touch on that in a moment.

It just feels kinda cheap. It's cool I guess, but at this point it feels like we've completely lost the Plucky Orphan who works hard to overcome his circumstances plot. It's saying that he was Always one of a kind, he was Always destined to become Someone Special (or that he was, in fact, special the whole time). It removes the importance of his hard work in the equation. It makes it so that this is no longer something he earned for himself, but rather something that was a Given, since he is, of course, Ashura's reincarnation.

Cheap. It's cheap. And I don't like it.

Then we get into Sasuke being the reincarnation of Indra. Which I haven't gotten to that yet in the show, but I know from seeing it around. I do enjoy the sun and moon aesthetic between Naruto and Sasuke (so SO much, in fact), but. Making Sasuke the reincarnation of the Other son of the Sage of Six Paths is... frustrating? In several ways. There is of course the fact that Naruto and Sasuke have such extremely gay vibes (and Always Have), so making them the reincarnations of brothers so late in the story feels like an insult to anyone who reads their relationship in that way. Which to be fair, we do see Naruto mention at a few points that he thinks of Sasuke like a brother, but it's only a few points + feels like a kind of narrative cop-out. Sasuke himself said he doesn't think of Naruto in that way (though that could also be his self-denial speaking & it could change. Haven't gotten that far yet.), & I think there are much better choices for Naruto's "brother" figure (primarily Iruka, but people like Killer Bee and any of the other konoha 12 would be fitting too). Personally, it feels like Naruto was trying to put a name to his very strong feelings for Sasuke, & since he doesn't realize being gay is an option (since Kishimoto is clearly homophobic & made this ninja society to reflect that), he settled on Brother. But Sasuke is like "what the fuck? No, my only brother is Itachi." Instead, Sasuke has called Naruto his best friend. Which also doesn't fully encompass their relationship, but it's still closer than Brother.

So here we are, Kishimoto saying around 555 episodes into the plot (only 80 more to go) that they're actually the reincarnations of brothers. And not just any brothers. THE sons of the Sage of Six Paths. Incredibly influential, incredibly powerful, two sides of the same coin and very historically significant figures. Sasuke always had the "descended from an elite, yet disgraced clan" thing going for him, so in my opinion it doesn't hold the same kind of insult to his story that it does for Naruto. But it still feels like an insult to THEIR story.

Naruto and Sasuke were just two orphan boys. Their moms were best friends, but they didn't know that. They died when they were too young. But Naruto and Sasuke still gravitated towards one another. Understood each other like no one else. And got on each other's nerves like no one else. But that irritation stemmed from their genuine admiration of each other. They wanted to be able to beat each other. They became Rivals. And it was on their own terms. No one else pushed them together. Outside of them ending up on the same team, their entire relationship was fueled by their recognition of one another, Jealousy of one another, and the simple enjoyment of being around one another. They were the ones to decide the importance of their relationship. Sasuke recognizing Naruto as his closest friend & thus thinking he was the one he had to cut off to achieve power, and Naruto recognizing Sasuke as his first peer that acknowledged him, a precious bond he finally made, and thus someone he had to cling to FIERCELY. That was all them.

But here we are. They're a reincarnated set. The sun and the moon, but Officially. One could say soulmates in a way, in a non-romantic kind of context (considering the first iteration was a pair of brothers). While this is cool from a story standpoint, it really takes some significance away from their relationship to me. It makes it less of something they chose for themselves and more of a given. Pretty much just like Naruto being Ashura's reincarnation cheapens his own story, it cheapens their relationship too.

I dont want a story about two boys who were destined to be important to each other!!!! I want a story about two orphans who just happened to become important to one another thru a series of coincidences and personal choices. In that way, their relationship gains greater gravity bc it's born from their own hearts Alone. It's Naruto moving mountains for the sake of this boy he loves, and it's Sasuke finally coming back around bc of the force of Naruto's dedication. It means so much more than the implication that they were always meant to be a pair. So I really don't like this narrative choice.

[bonefall]

now these are bones opinions and ive only seen like 3 episodes of naruto before i got bored but i gotta say: it IS weird that the show puts SO much emphasis on naruto coming from nothing and then makes his dad like, the ninja-president cause it feels like naruto is only impoverished bc the narrative needs to LOOK like it's important that he's in poverty

Smarter, more Naruto-centric blogs have discussed this odd retcon than I, but Nonny... let me just give you a sampler of how weird the retcon was.

(ALL of this is a retcon btw. We learn nearly everything about Naruto's lineage in one fell swoop.)

We find out that Naruto is actually the son of Kushina Uzumaki and Minato Namikaze.

Kushina Uzumaki is one of the last known members of a super powerful bloodline who was renowed for being special vessels of "Tailed Beasts."

Not only are Uzumakis powerful and renowed, Kushina being a survivor of the collapse of a nation, but any other Vessel who lets lose a tailed beast out of their body typically dies. (Unless you're gaara, then ur protected by being a main character)

She was known as the newest vessel of the Nine-Tailed Fox, which is basically like Konoha's very important nuclear warhead. Having a nuclear warhead is a major political consideration for ALL nations as a deterrant against invasion.

Minato, meanwhile, was the Hokage. President Dictator of Konoha.

These Are Both Well Known People. These Are Political Figureheads.

And also Kushina and Sasuke's mother were personal friends. Sasuke's mom was aware her friend was pregnant.

But when a Vessel gives birth is apparently becomes a moment of weakness during which the Tailed Beast can pop out. They take precautions, but You Can't Thwart Stage One

Nine-Tailed Fox kills a bunch of people in its rampage and Minato seals the beastie into a baby before dying (this part is not a retcon this is established from like the 1st chapter)

But it turns out that actually Minato and Kushina did it together and put the beastie into THEIR OWN baby.

But this makes NO sense in hindsight... like, at all.

His last name is Uzumaki and NO ONE KNEW?

He NEVER LEARNED what an Uzumaki is?

He looks JUST like Minato, too, spitting image. And no one knows.

THE PREVIOUS DICTATOR PRESIDENT

In spite of it being KNOWN that Minato was married to the previous Nuclear Warhead Holder.

This one shows up with a Nuclear Warhead of his own and no one puts two and two together

Sasuke's Mom also never approaches the very obvious child of her friend. Only person in the whole village with her last name. Born around the same time that her pregnant friend vanished.

Making Tailed Beasts into Nuclear Warheads was also a mistake because why the hell is no one trying to kidnap this unwanted WEAPON if having and using them is a major political consideration???

But no we gotta make Naruto the specialist boy to have ever been born and he's so amazing and perfect and always destined for greatness because of his birth. Who cares how little sense it actually makes.

It's like Kishimoto wanted to have his cake and eat it too; have Naruto both come from poverty and humble beginnings, but also have been the chosen one all along who was always going to become the big damn hero. Frustrating.

[tekka-dan]

I've notice that Naruto and Sakura have very similar flaws and negative character traits.

I have to agree with you on this however I’d also like to state that just because two characters have similar traits [be that positive or negative] doesn’t inherently mean that they are destined to be together. 

Their main character traits consist of selfish, inconsiderate, and manipulative. These are the negative traits. However they also have positive traits: both of them have unwavering loyalty, devotion, tenacity and admiration. 

Focusing on the negatives in their attritibutes would paint the solid picture that they are so opposite of other characters that they belong together when in actuality that’s just mild traits that they happen to have in common, nothing more and nothing less, really. When you focus on their positive attributes, it kind of paints them in better lightning. 

The main flaw of Sakura and Naruto’s worst character flaw (selfishness) is that they are some of the only characters I know to acknowledge this within themselves, be aware of it and do nothing about it to change this behavior.

Starting with Naruto, on various occasions Naruto relays that he’s selfish to an extent and that he knows what’s best for others simply because it validates him in some way. I don’t need to break this down to heavily but the major flaw is that Naruto contradicts himself directly after he admits this about himself. I can’t find the damn image but there’s a scene where he’s speaking to Sakura in regards to rescuing Sasuke and he openly tells her “I know it’s selfish to assume what’s best for Sasuke or even know how he’s feeling” this was the line I was waiting to read and connect with, I was going to revel in Naruto’s acknowledgment of his actions through chasing Sasuke against his will all this time. But then, he finishes his spiel directly after that line with “But that’s why I’ll do everything it takes to bring Sasuke back!!”

Like this fool just had a whole revelation about what made him selfish and he does a complete 360 with this bafoonery mindset. Like how do you miss your own damn point while making a point? This was sort of when I gave up on Naruto as a character because he wasn’t learning anything from his behavior or actions and he wasn’t even trying to. Like to put it into perspective: that’s like me taking someone’s cupcake and eating it despite the fact it wasn’t mine to begin with. Well I’m aware that the cupcake wasn’t mine and I acknowledge that I’m an asshole for eating something that wasn’t mine—then I turn around and do the exact same shit. I learned nothing at all. Even though I pointed out my biggest flaw, I just did the exact same thing refusing to change. That’s what I mean by Naruto and this scene, he acknowledges that he knows nothing about how Sasuke feels and goes on to negate even attempting to understand how he even feels. “I know sasuke doesn’t wanna come home, but I’m gonna make him come home anyway!!”

Sakura was no better because aside from enabling Naruto to feel validated by not considering Sasukes feelings, she was doing the exact same thing. I know I stated that their [implying I mean both Naruto and Sakura] worst trait is their selfishness but in Sakura’s case it’s both Selfishness and Manipulativeness. 

We all know all too well the first canon scene in which Sakura confesses to Sasuke her love for him and then to take her with him on his departure from the village. We can analyze this scene all day but it comes down to the fact that Sakura really didn’t consider Sasukes feelings because she was being selfish into thinking of her own.

 However it worsens into adulthood because then Sakura goes on telling people her heart was taken by another man and it’s like in what universe did Sasuke ever remotely confirm that they were together / a thing / going to be a thing / to have her tie herself down to him? Like that’s the manipulative bullshit Sakura pulls that I’m talking about. 

Naruto and Sakura have so many positive traits but when you contrast them to their negative traits it’s so hard to overlook and excuse them. The only good thing I can say about their negative traits is that it’s the one thing Kishimoto did right; keeping their characters loyal to their attributes. However the bad thing I would say about contrasting their negative and positive traits is that Sakura’s unwavering love is manipulatively obsessive and Naruto’s unwavering devotion is unhealthy self validation. Like their positive traits exist and they are beautiful but when you mix them, it’s dangerous and unbecoming. 

I like Sakura and Naruto as characters despite their flaws though nonetheless. I wouldn’t like them as people but I can tolerate them as characters.