#(i talk about how the reincarnation thing affects the context of their relationship lower down in the post)

[orcelito]

I've been working on Finally finishing Naruto Shippuden (after being a Naruto fan for nearly 15 years), & I just finished episode 420. And I have some THOUGHTS about the "Naruto is the reincarnation of Ashura" thing. This started as just me rambling for my normal liveblog posting, but I had a LOT of thoughts about this actually, so I am presenting them to u all Now.

So. Naruto meeting the Sage of Six Paths! Cool!!! I'm finally learning about Naruto being the reincarnation of Ashura, which... honestly is not a choice that I like very much. Narratively speaking, I mean. The Point of Naruto's journey was that he was the underdog, the bottom of his class, the orphan that everyone hated and made fun of. Through hard work and perseverance, he managed to drag himself from being a complete social outcast to someone generally really loved and respected. That's compelling!!! It means a lot!!!

But then the show is like. "Oh...actually, he's the son of the fourth hokage. And Also, he's the reincarnation of the son of the literal creator of ninshuu aka the precursor of modern ninjutsu." I mind him being Minato's son less as a narrative choice (for reasons I will get into shortly), but making him Ashura's reincarnation?? I've got Several things that bug me about that.

So First, for him being Minato's son. It's not like that's ever Actually given him any sort of status (since most people don't know), & Minato was also kind of just a random guy?? Just incredibly skilled, enough so to become the 4th hokage. And then there's also Kushina, descended from a very successful and very Feared clan that ended up almost entirely killed bc of that fear. Naruto being an Uzumaki means great power, huge chakra reserves (not even including the extra chakra he gets from Kurama), & some innate skills (that Naruto mostly didn't inherit, but one can play pretend sometimes). BUT ALSO, they were almost entirely killed off. He's a survivor of his clan's genocide that happened well before he was even born, and he doesn't even REALIZE it yet. So even though being Minato's son means he's the son of a very influential person, it doesn't give him the same leverage as being a Senju or Uchiha would. And the clan he Does belong to bc of Kushina does not give him status either, bc they're almost all fuckin Dead. And we know that Minato is a Namikaze, but as for what that actually *means*.... it's basically nonexistent. There is no mention of a Namikaze clan. Minato was just a prodigy in his own right.

SO.... All that is to say that while appending Naruto's orphan story with a "well, Actually, his parents were very powerful and well respected" does discount it a little bit, it's still not Especially unique in terms of what other people in their world may experience (there are other descendants of current and/or former kage + Many other powerful clans running around) OR in the benefits that it gives him (essentially nothing, outside of his physical strength and the inheritance of Kurama himself)(which inheriting Kurama did grant him access to IMMENSE power, but it also was the source of So Much of his suffering growing up, so I think it balances out).

The "reincarnation of Ashura, son of the Sage of Six Paths" thing tho... that one really kinda does. At that point, Naruto is no longer just the orphaned son of two respected shinobi & the current jinchuuriki of the Kyuubi (something special, but not entirely original, given that there are Other jinchuuriki who are descendants of powerful shinobi). He is now something that NO ONE ELSE ALIVE can be. It is saying that He, above Everyone Else, is special in this way. Outside of Sasuke lol, but I'll touch on that in a moment.

It just feels kinda cheap. It's cool I guess, but at this point it feels like we've completely lost the Plucky Orphan who works hard to overcome his circumstances plot. It's saying that he was Always one of a kind, he was Always destined to become Someone Special (or that he was, in fact, special the whole time). It removes the importance of his hard work in the equation. It makes it so that this is no longer something he earned for himself, but rather something that was a Given, since he is, of course, Ashura's reincarnation.

Cheap. It's cheap. And I don't like it.

Then we get into Sasuke being the reincarnation of Indra. Which I haven't gotten to that yet in the show, but I know from seeing it around. I do enjoy the sun and moon aesthetic between Naruto and Sasuke (so SO much, in fact), but. Making Sasuke the reincarnation of the Other son of the Sage of Six Paths is... frustrating? In several ways. There is of course the fact that Naruto and Sasuke have such extremely gay vibes (and Always Have), so making them the reincarnations of brothers so late in the story feels like an insult to anyone who reads their relationship in that way. Which to be fair, we do see Naruto mention at a few points that he thinks of Sasuke like a brother, but it's only a few points + feels like a kind of narrative cop-out. Sasuke himself said he doesn't think of Naruto in that way (though that could also be his self-denial speaking & it could change. Haven't gotten that far yet.), & I think there are much better choices for Naruto's "brother" figure (primarily Iruka, but people like Killer Bee and any of the other konoha 12 would be fitting too). Personally, it feels like Naruto was trying to put a name to his very strong feelings for Sasuke, & since he doesn't realize being gay is an option (since Kishimoto is clearly homophobic & made this ninja society to reflect that), he settled on Brother. But Sasuke is like "what the fuck? No, my only brother is Itachi." Instead, Sasuke has called Naruto his best friend. Which also doesn't fully encompass their relationship, but it's still closer than Brother.

So here we are, Kishimoto saying around 555 episodes into the plot (only 80 more to go) that they're actually the reincarnations of brothers. And not just any brothers. THE sons of the Sage of Six Paths. Incredibly influential, incredibly powerful, two sides of the same coin and very historically significant figures. Sasuke always had the "descended from an elite, yet disgraced clan" thing going for him, so in my opinion it doesn't hold the same kind of insult to his story that it does for Naruto. But it still feels like an insult to THEIR story.

Naruto and Sasuke were just two orphan boys. Their moms were best friends, but they didn't know that. They died when they were too young. But Naruto and Sasuke still gravitated towards one another. Understood each other like no one else. And got on each other's nerves like no one else. But that irritation stemmed from their genuine admiration of each other. They wanted to be able to beat each other. They became Rivals. And it was on their own terms. No one else pushed them together. Outside of them ending up on the same team, their entire relationship was fueled by their recognition of one another, Jealousy of one another, and the simple enjoyment of being around one another. They were the ones to decide the importance of their relationship. Sasuke recognizing Naruto as his closest friend & thus thinking he was the one he had to cut off to achieve power, and Naruto recognizing Sasuke as his first peer that acknowledged him, a precious bond he finally made, and thus someone he had to cling to FIERCELY. That was all them.

But here we are. They're a reincarnated set. The sun and the moon, but Officially. One could say soulmates in a way, in a non-romantic kind of context (considering the first iteration was a pair of brothers). While this is cool from a story standpoint, it really takes some significance away from their relationship to me. It makes it less of something they chose for themselves and more of a given. Pretty much just like Naruto being Ashura's reincarnation cheapens his own story, it cheapens their relationship too.

I dont want a story about two boys who were destined to be important to each other!!!! I want a story about two orphans who just happened to become important to one another thru a series of coincidences and personal choices. In that way, their relationship gains greater gravity bc it's born from their own hearts Alone. It's Naruto moving mountains for the sake of this boy he loves, and it's Sasuke finally coming back around bc of the force of Naruto's dedication. It means so much more than the implication that they were always meant to be a pair. So I really don't like this narrative choice.

[mischievouswritingblog]

Classicaloid Meta: A Look at Beethoven, Kanae, and ‘Love’

Hello! I’m not really apart of this fandom but I wanted to contribute a little something anyway. I enjoy making observations and doing a little theory and headcanon crafting. I hope that you enjoy! I’ll admit that when I was first watched the beginning of this series I didn’t expect to really stick with it. I love the idea and enjoyed the humor of it but I wished a few things were more explored depth. I will admit that this series ended up growing on and I grew really fond of some of the characters and the re-imaginings of the famous classical pieces. As I continued to watch the series though I began to notice that the writers did a great job with using historical references for each of the Classicaloids. I really have to give this series credit because these references subtle and easy to miss but if you know or do your research on the composers you can pick up on the clever jokes and references that are weaved in. For this bit though I wanted to look at something from one of my favorite episodes so far, Episode 19: “Love, And You Shall Die”.  (Spoilers ahead, turn back now if you don’t want to see them.)

This episode surprised me because of the bits between Beethoven and Kana. While there were very subtle references for a few the composers in this episode, Beethoven’s aversion to ‘falling in love’ is both hilarious and understandable. When you look at Beethoven’s past and his track record with ‘love’, you can understand why this ‘reincarnated’ version of Beethoven might want to avoid it as though it were the plague. (I’m going to put the rest of this under a cut since this became way longer than it was supposed to be.)

Historical Beethoven and Love:

It’s been said that Historical Beethoven was a hopeless romantic (in Bonn during his youth it was said that he was ‘always in love’), he fell in love with quite a few women during his lifetime. He never got married but varying accounts from various sources in his life suggest that he might have gotten really close once or twice.

There were probably quite a few reasons Beethoven’s love life was pretty much a clusterfuck of rotten luck. He was said to have a ‘brusque’ personality, a certain disdain for authority, and hated the aristocratic class system. However he was also said to have had bold ideas and redeeming qualities, and had many friends from various classes and walks of life.

In Beethoven’s time women were encouraged to learn music. Whether it be piano, singing or what have you. You have to keep in mind that there was little in terms of home entertainment and a woman with musical talent was seen as better marriage material. Beethoven taught a lot of women and ended up having a few close relationships and falling in love with a few of his students. Sometimes Beethoven kept his affections a secret, in other instances the feelings were mutual or he was outright rejected.

One of the reoccurring issues that stopped his relationships was the class system that he hated so much. You have to keep in mind that while Beethoven went down in history as a world famous musical genius in his time he was simply the bullheaded son of a lowly musician. Beethoven might have been able to move about aristocratic circles and had friends there but he was always considered ‘from the lower class’ and it followed him throughout his life.

There had been accounts and letters that pointed to Beethoven having relationships with women above his class even in nobility. He would dedicate quite a few music pieces to the women he had affections for. Some of his romances may have even led to some of the inspiration for a few of his musical pieces.

Another issue was his rebellious personality and his appearance. Beethoven had wild hair and his complexion was said to be dark and marred with scars from smallpox.

There is a story of Beethoven where he proposed to a singer named “Magdalena Willman” and was promptly rejected. It was said that she told him that he was “too ugly and half crazy.”

Things only got worse as Beethoven slowly became deaf over the years. He slowly withdrew himself from social events hoping to hide what was happening to him from the public. Letters to family were said to have shown growing paranoia of what people were saying about him and to him since Beethoven couldn’t always understand what they were saying. He eventually isolated himself and more than likely led to changes in his personality and furthering his eccentricity.

Classicaloid’s Beethoven and Love (Theories? Headcanons?):

(Important Note: From here I’m going to be going into theory and headcanon territory. A lot of this is based on my personal observations and opinions.)

So, with the historical side of things done I’d like to look at how this might reflect on the narrative. I will say right now I am really glad Beethoven isn’t fawning over women in Classicaloid. You see a lot of hints of his historical counterpart’s personality hinted at here and there. Beethoven in Classicaloid can be rebellious, wild, and is dedicated to his art. But in Episode 11 (not 19, surprisingly) we might have gotten the first hint of Beethoven’s issues with romance.

(Out of context this would look shippy, wouldn’t it?)

In this scene Beethoven is distracting Kanae from seeing a disaster that’s on the roof of her mansion. He’s trying to lead her back inside the house to buy the others time to clean the mess. One thing leads to another and Kanae misunderstands what the talk is about (Beethoven’s intense insistence doesn’t help matters). 

So Kanae get’s the wrong idea and thinks Beethoven’s looking to confess that he likes her. To which she responds:

(Beethoven at this point probably has no idea what she’s going on about but perhaps something about this conversation is starting to sound eerily familiar...)

( ...Ouch.)

Now this part is played up for comedic effect which is understandable and keeps the comedic tone of the show going. But it’s how Beethoven reacts after this moment that’s interesting.

He’s standing there all quiet, even the background music goes out, the comedic feel of the scene feels like it’s been cut short. With angle it’s set in we can get the feeling that either we as an audience are looking down on Beethoven or perhaps he feels like he’s being looked down on or feels small. Even Beethoven’s facial expression feels a little too serious for a simple comedic punch line.

This detail is one of the selling points of this scene in my opinion. The way his mouth is set you could get the feeling that he was hurt/upset by the rejection. It’s true that Beethoven wasn’t confessing or asking Kanae out at all but the situation might have stirred up some bad memories for him all the same.  Another example of this in Classicaloid’s writing is Mozart’s short memory scenes in Episode 12: J. S. Bach. In that episode the way that he was treated by the company brought back memories of his poor treatment by people that were probably his patrons.  Beethoven’s reaction to being talked down to and being mocked was probably set off just like Mozart. Though we didn’t get visuals like with Mozart, looking at history can help fill in the blanks. Beethoven wasn’t good with criticism, conformity, and the class system of his day. The way the producers were talking down to him was probably a lot like the people that would insult or talk down to him in his past life. With that in mind I think that it’s safe to say that some of the situations that the Classicaloids find themselves in quite possibly trigger memories. (I do have to wonder, if the more the Classicaloids remember certain events if it can change them over time?)

So, getting back on track! With what is known of historical Beethoven’s unlucky love life this scene could be seen as one of the many historical references/parallels that this series has sprinkled throughout it. At least that’s my take on it. So now, lets move onto episode 19.

Let’s take a look at the scene just after Liszt and Sousuke are taken away for ‘becoming a couple’. Below we see can see some of the expressions of the other’s reactions.

(Fun little tidbit: One fan pointed out that Schu’s line here is a reference and that he’s probably speaking from experience.)

Then we look at Beethoven’s reaction:

Quite a bit of detail is used in his expression here. He looks the most disturbed and maybe even scared by what he just saw. Even what he says here is a little interesting. On one hand he’s very disturbed by the situation and on the other he seems to be saying that a ‘fleeting fancy’ is not ‘true love’. (At least that’s my take on it.) It might also be a reflection on some of his own past self’s experiences of love. It’s true, I might be looking too deeply into this scene but at the same time the way the set up and the delivery are executed gives the sense that Beethoven’s reaction is a little more serious. Later we have a scene where Kanae finds Beethoven hiding under the cabinets under the sink while she was washing the dishes. 

He’s immediately blushing, this is a game he’s going to lose horribly. Get rekt Beto.

He’s royally screwed and he knows it. His own passion and love are basically being played against him. He’s going to lose and he’s going to drag Kanae down with him.

On one hand this scene is much more comical in tone and is cute. At the same time it could be a little telling as well. Historical Beethoven fell in love a lot and with women that society, at the time, would say he had no business getting romantically involved with.  Classicaloid Beethoven is falling in love with Kanae, while it’s probably because of the effects of the Musik it’s still an all too familiar situation. Then we finally get to the Bridge scene.

They then realize that they are set up in a situation that could potentially lead to a romance. Kanae is in danger, Beethoven saves her in just the right time and looks brave and even a little cool. 

With how the game is set up it’s clearly a trap but one they have to fall into if they want to get out of there. Still Beethoven is a bit reluctant to accept it.

When you look at Historical Beethoven for context his hesitation makes a little more sense. His past self had fallen in love so many times already and never got married in the end. Letting himself fall in love again in this new life, even if it’s just for a moment, might be a scary prospect for him. What if he can’t stop himself after the Musik has ended? What if he’s doomed to repeat the cycle of love and rejection all over again? But of course...

That moment of love hits him like a truck. And leaves him like this:

Which evolves into him claim that he only did it for the sake of his music and going into a full blown rant. 

So with that he’s trying to reason (probably with himself more than anything) that the ‘love’ he felt was strictly for sake of his art and nothing more. Nobody’s buying it.  While I don’t think it will get explored much further than that in series I rather liked those tidbits. I might be tempted to do a ficlet or two based around it when I get the time. But if there’s any headcanons or theories anyone wants to add or toss around with me I’d be glad to hear them! I love talking about stuff like that! Thank you for reading!