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[Transcript] Season 3, Episode 8. Echo Review

The Stereo Geeks review Echo! The spin-off Marvel series is quite unlike the shows that have come before, and Ron and Mon had a lot of thoughts about it. We discuss the history of Maya Lopez, what worked for us in the show, what we would have liked more of, and why Maya 'Echo' Lopez is not like your average superhero.

What did you think of Echo?

Listen to the episode on Spotify.

Hello and welcome to a new episode of Stereo Geeks.

Today we're reviewing Echo.

And I'm Mon.

Echo is the first series under the Marvel Spotlight banner, which follows street level characters.

Essentially, it's made for non-MCU watchers who don't want to catch up on all the other stuff.

This has been a constant refrain from a lot of people that you just need to watch too many shows, too many movies to figure out what's going on.

This kind of explains why so much of the first episode of Echo is basically a recap of her adventures in Hawkeye.

Considering we only get five episodes of this show, it feels a little bit egregious for so much time in the first episode to have been dedicated to a recap.

Yeah, I have to say that one of the problems with this show is that it's quite short.

It's only five episodes.

I mean, you'd say four, considering the first one is really a recap.

If there is one criticism about this show that honestly I don't think anybody can escape, it's that it doesn't really feel like a full-fledged story.

It's half a story.

It's missing a lot of dynamics, a lot of explanations.

It's honestly missing a lot of motivations as well.

There are so many gaps.

And I'm not sure why.

You're saying this is the first show under a brand new banner.

You're saying this is basically not only just an introduction, but an entry into this sprawling universe that has been continuing since 2008.

And yet you don't actually respect it enough to give the writers, the directors, the characters the ability to tell a cohesive, full-fledged story.

And the fact that Echo, aka Maya Lopez, is the first indigenous protagonist in the MCU just makes this very weird optically.

Yeah, because to try and explain who Maya Lopez is, it's going to be a little bit tough.

She was introduced on Hawkeye, the Jeremy Renner show.

She was an antagonist.

There were connections between her and Kingpin.

Lots of excitement.

There's Kingpin in there, and she's got some kind of relationship to him.

And, you know, we see her making a very bold decision at the end of Hawkeye.

How does that affect her?

So I expected this show, which is a spinoff, to be not only telling us about Maya's history, but also who she is now, how she became the person who is connected to Kingpin.

Kingpin is a bad guy.

Anybody associated with him is a bad guy, but she's not.

Or is she?

So I just feel like there was a lot resting on this show, which four and a quarter episodes were never going to be enough.

But again, they could have done a lot, but it just seemed like there was too little time to actually give us an entire story.

What I really did like about Echo is the amount of history we learn of the Choctaw Nation.

This is basically where Oklahoma and Alabama are right now.

In the comics, Echo is Cheyenne.

She's not Choctaw.

And Alaqua Cox, the actor, is Menominee and Mohican.

I'm not entirely sure why they made this change, but I guess it works.

Also in the comics, Echo is deaf, but not an amputee.

The show actually adapted the character for Alaqua Cox's disabilities.

I think it's great.

I like the fact that they just quickly explain it away.

It's fine.

And we just move on with it.

I thought there were a few too many scenes where we were focusing on her prosthetic leg.

But then I was like, why not?

Well, that's actually something Alaqua Cox seems to have wanted to portray.

She wanted to make sure that people not only saw the prosthetic, but also that, you know, this is the person who has it and is using it.

And she was very, very insistent on not hiding it under her clothes.

So there's a few jokes about that in the show as well.

So I do understand it was like, oh, why another focus on this?

But that seems to be coming from the actor and not necessarily from a bad place.

So that's a good thing.

I am relieved to hear that.

And the thing is that there's so much action in this show.

And a lot of it, Echo is using her prosthetic leg to fight people.

And it looks really, really cool.

And it made me think we haven't seen anything like this before.

Even if we have, we haven't necessarily seen it from an actor who also has the same disability.

I think the show has got a lot going for it simply because it's doing this representation and it's doing it correctly, I would think.

That goes for the history of the Choctaw Nation that we get to see on the show.

So each episode is basically named after one of the ancestors and we keep building up, building up, building up until we reach Maya.

Everything will be explained when you watch the show.

But we get to see a lot of the history of the Choctaw Nation through these episodes.

I did try and look for a mythical Choctaw warrior called Shaafa.

I'm afraid she doesn't exist.

But in the second episode, they do play stickball, which was great to see.

It's basically what lacrosse is now.

And they actually allude to the fact that stickball was used to settle disputes at that time.

It was really very fun and exciting.

And of course, it has a story purpose as well.

Then in episode three, we get to see the Light Horsemen.

Unfortunately, I did search, but there were apparently no female Light Horse Police like we see in the show.

Well, none that we know of anyway.

Very true.

But the Light Horsemen were definitely a thing.

The show also has a lot of references to the comic books.

Yeah, let's talk about some of her similarities with her comic book counterpart.

She is related in quotation marks to Kingpin.

Her outfits, some of them have a sort of throwback to her comic book outfit.

And this is not a spoiler.

Everybody saw it in Hawkeye.

But when her father is killed, he leaves a bloody handprint on her face.

And the same thing happens in the comic books.

Noticeably, she does not have the handprint on her face as part of her uniform.

I'm okay with that.

I'm not sure what they were trying to do with that in the comics, but it's fine.

It's not in the show.

So in the comics, Maya basically has the ability to mimic anybody's movements.

She just has to see them at least once.

She does not appear to have those powers.

The powers that she does have is really her resourcefulness, her strength, her training.

So that's quite different.

I do understand why they changed that.

We do have a very similar character like that in the MCU.

But one of the things that confused me a little bit, or maybe it's because of my preferences, I don't know, there was something very real or realistic about Maya's story.

And then they have this sort of supernatural thing going on.

And I'm not sure I dug that as much as people might.

So I don't know how you felt about that.

So I was in two minds about it.

I really liked having somebody who didn't have any powers, who was literally just relying on her fists and her brain to get her through very sticky situations.

And when we did get to the part where there seemed to be something mystical about the energies around her, I thought maybe we didn't need this.

We have a lot of people who already have some kind of power, who can do something extraordinary.

Maybe we just needed somebody who was ordinary.

But I think the way it developed in the final episode, I really liked the direction they went.

I like that Maya is not the only one with this kind of power.

It just depends on who uses it for what purpose.

But I think a lot of our concerns about this particular story angle would have been addressed if there was maybe two, three episodes more.

We wouldn't have been thinking about it so much.

Yeah, I guess it kind of caught me by surprise because the two volumes that I read of Echo in the comics, yeah, that doesn't have any of this mystical stuff.

It has, of course, the connections to your past.

It was not written by an indigenous person, so not sure how authentic that was.

So apparently this is the first time that Maya Lopez, Echo has been created from an indigenous perspective, which is just shocking.

She was introduced in like 98 or something.

But I guess the reason why we're kind of excited about talking about this show are the characters.

I guess let's get into it.

Let's go first with Maya Lopez.

Alaqua Cox, her debut performance was in Hawkeye.

She was so good there, so good.

Now she's getting to carry an entire Marvel show.

She's fantastic.

It's unbelievable that this is just the second time she's actually in front of the screen.

Yeah, it just tells you when something is electric about an actor.

Her very first introduction in Hawkeye, I'm just like, I need to see more of this character.

And with every passing episode, I was like, okay, somehow we need to get more.

And I was really excited when they announced that Echo was going to be a show on its own.

I was disappointed when it turned out to be five episodes.

But having said that, Alaqua Cox is really brilliant.

Like, first, she's got resting bitch face, which is super relatable.

Like, her dad is dead.

Everything is going wrong.

Kingpin is a pain.

She is allowed to have resting bitch face.

But what I really loved about her is she imbues Maya with so much attitude.

It's just perfect.

She's perennially annoyed.

And she has these quirky little expressions when she's not happy with something.

And I feel like it's just so natural you don't see actors doing that.

So it feels like we're hanging out with a real person in a very difficult situation.

She's absolutely mesmerizing to watch.

I absolutely just loved seeing her in this show.

I honestly need to see more.

Like we need more of Echo in the MCU.

I don't care where she turns up.

I hope she turns up in everything.

Please.

She's just so fantastic.

I would love to see this character.

But Echo has this amazing community of people.

And when I say amazing, it's amazing because these people are so fantastic and I want to hang out with them.

But she doesn't always get along.

She doesn't agree with them.

They are annoying.

They've made mistakes.

And at the same time, you're like, I feel this person.

I get you.

I get why you're feeling this way, why you're acting this way.

It's a small, tight cast, but they're so good.

She's got two cousins, Biscuit and Bonnie.

Biscuit is a character who is a cliché, but he's so earnest.

He's Maya's biggest champion.

I love that about him.

And he's terrified of his grandmother, which is just so understandable.

And we have Bonnie played by Devri Jacobs, and we mention her because she recently voiced Kahuri on Marvel's What If.

She had a really small role, but I have to say, she has these looks, and I'm like, there is history here.

There is history, there is pain, and I really want to know more about this character who is so astute and so calm, but there's just like this boiling, surging sea of emotions beneath.

And the performance that really got me by Devri Jacobs was in the final episode.

We're not going to tell you what it was, but it's a short scene, but it's so good, so powerful.

And then we have Tantoo Cardinal.

She is a veteran.

She's the grandmother, but man, you do not want to cross this lady.

She's so, she's so good.

She has this no-nonsense, gonna-hit-you-where-it-hurts kind of attitude, which is just so fun.

And yet she has this really nice emotional scene with Alaqua Cox, which is just, it just really humanizes her.

Graham Greene, he plays Scully.

I think he had the best role.

Like, he's this cheeky, funny, Q-like character who's just bringing this kind of crazy cool energy to the show.

I love that.

But we've gotta talk about Chaske Spencer.

He plays Uncle Henry.

And this is a man who has so much history, just from his expressions, his emotions.

I just wanna know where has this character been and why haven't we seen his story?

What I also really loved about everybody around Maya, despite the fact that most of them haven't seen her for a long time, they've all kept up with sign language.

And I don't know whether that's because they weren't sure whether she'd come back and they wanted to be prepared or whether they just wanted to keep this skill.

But it's such a stark contrast with somebody else that Maya really is very fond of, who doesn't bother to learn the language, despite also knowing her for exactly the same length of time.

I wish we had some behind the scenes to find out how much time and energy it took for the actors to learn sign language so well, because it's very natural and very organic.

Yes, they do talk rather slowly when they're doing the sign, but it felt like they were actually conversing with Maya.

And I don't think, again, that we've seen anything like this before.

I would say in genre fiction, maybe not to this extent, where the extended supporting cast is doing as much heavy lifting with the language as the main character who knows the language.

What I liked about this show was that they play with the sound a lot.

The sound editing is very interesting.

There are points when they do cut out all the sound.

There's still music playing.

There are other times when they're like, yeah, okay, we're going to give the actors the time to speak.

So sometimes they speak out loud and they sign.

Other times it's just whispering and signing.

It adds to the atmosphere.

It adds to what Maya is feeling.

There is especially, again, that last episode, there's a lot to say about it.

In the last episode, there's a very important point when they cut out all the sound.

In fact, there are two important points.

But the emotional resonance of the second time when they remove the sound and there's just this intense, soft music at the back, it not only highlights the performances, but it puts you in Maya's shoes.

And you're like, how is she feeling with this person reacting the way they are?

And she can't hear them.

She can only see what this person is doing.

It was incredible.

That was a really incredible choice.

That last episode and the kind of scenes and technical decisions that they made me wonder if they could have actually pushed the envelope a little bit more.

How about an entire episode with just Maya's point of view?

No sound.

Let's experience the world as Maya experiences it.

I mean, we did see that on Only Murders in the Building, right?

We had that episode in the first season completely devoid of sound because we were in the shoes of the character who was deaf.

It was spectacular, spectacular.

And I just think that there should be more episodes and more shows and more productions making an effort to do different things to make us all understand what other people's experiences are.

Because honestly, a lot of folks just don't realize lived experiences are different for different people.

And how can they?

I mean, look at the MCU itself.

Some 30 or so properties, and the majority of them have been about one very narrow lived experience.

And we're already seeing so many people being like, oh, we didn't need this show, nobody needs this character.

Really?

Really, we have two indigenous characters in the MCU.

Maya and Kahhori.

That's it.

And so because we have Kahhori, we don't need Maya?

We don't need everybody in Maya's life?

Yeah, I have nothing to say to that.

If people can't see this and understand why this is just the starting point, it shocks me that this is even a conversation to be had.

It's amazing that we have this.

Because, you know, when you're watching this show, you realize that there's not just one perspective that they're changing.

Look at the kind of different sizes and shapes that the actors come in in this show.

No one comments on it.

And I was like at first thinking, yeah, you know, there are different communities where different sizes are de rigueur.

They're accepted.

Everybody just understands it.

But then I saw, oh, there's this other white lady bad guy who's also a little chubby.

And nobody comments on that either.

And I'm like, well, why can't we have this in every single property that we watch?

People are different shapes and sizes.

They live life.

Nobody comments on it.

They're just doing their own thing.

They are good.

They are bad.

Whoever cares.

This show just seamlessly does that.

The moment I saw the first fat character, my heart kind of sank, and I was waiting for somebody to say something rude or make a fat joke.

And then we had the antagonist who was a fat character, and I was like, oh, are they going to say something mean about her and nothing happened?

And then we see more fat people and nobody says anything, and there are no fat jokes.

And I was like, oh my God, is this how everybody else lives?

They're not making a statement.

They're just saying different people live in the world.

You live alongside them.

Why does it matter?

I'm just so impressed.

Were the creators even thinking about what they were doing?

I don't think so.

They were thinking about what they were doing for people who are indigenous, for people with disabilities.

I don't know if they were going as far as thinking, oh yeah, different shapes and sizes are respected in this show.

But I think it's because of that and the respect that the creators have for the characters and giving us this fully-fledged feeling of being part of this community.

And when I say community, it's like this community of people who love each other, hate each other, get annoyed with each other, make mistakes.

One of the things that we've probably not interrogated about superheroes is the fact that they rarely have families.

And if they do, it's like, you know, just because they're going to be in danger.

But Echo really delves into the fact that Maya's family is made up of real people.

They react to their anger, their pain.

They let it take them over.

Maya does the same thing.

But at the heart of it, they all still really, really love each other.

And I like the things that they didn't tell us.

You have these scenes, and they just mention something like, oh, okay, that's why it's happened.

I really like the thought that went into this.

But again, it makes me think I needed more time.

Like, where did Biscuit even come from?

And there's this revelation about Uncle Henry, and I was like, oh, really?

How come we had no inkling that this was happening?

And especially when you see the scenes where Maya is with Kingpin, young Maya and adult Maya, they are so powerful.

And it's weird to say that about somebody like Kingpin, because he's a scary guy.

Now, I'll be the first to admit, I did not finish watching Daredevil, five episodes, and I fell asleep during the sixth.

But Kingpin in this show is calm, cool, collected, and his every second on screen is menacing.

I'm actually beginning to think I should go and watch Daredevil now.

Look, Vincent D'Onofrio, the way he captured the menace and scariness of Kingpin is the reason why people are clamoring to see him again and have been ever since he went off screen.

And he is so good.

And what I liked about it is that his scenes with Maya are just so great.

Like you want to see more of them interacting with each other.

It's weird to say, but I kind of wish we'd seen more of Kingpin.

But only Kingpin and Maya together, not just, oh, let's see what Kingpin is up to.

For me, the reason why I was invested in Kingpin in this show is because of his scenes with Maya.

So you're right.

I don't really want to see Kingpin doing his own thing.

I'm not interested in that.

The reason why Maya and Kingpin scenes work so well is because her reactions to him are widely different from everybody else's.

And that is just something that needs to be seen for a longer time.

I think we could have actually done with an episode just on the two of them.

That's why I keep coming back to the same thing.

Why was this just five episodes?

I think we've come to the heart of the issue.

This show was clamoring to be a character study.

A character study of Maya, of her family, including Kingpin.

But what it ended up being was more plot heavy, with a lot of character study thrown in, but it was disjointed and disconnected.

So sometimes the motivations weren't there, or sometimes the emotional impact on the character was not felt at the right time.

I'm not saying whenever the emotional impact was felt, we weren't all tearing up.

But for example, in the first episode, little Maya goes through a lot, a shock load.

But she doesn't react at all.

Like is it dissociative?

Is it shock?

What is happening?

But we never come back to that.

The adults are reacting in a particular way, but not her.

Again, those are missing beats, perhaps because, well, most of the first episode had to be regurgitated, and the rest of the series had to be curtailed.

So there's those angles which really, it undermines the efforts of this show, and of the show's creators.

But that being said, the best part of this show are all these characters, including, I will say, Kingpin, which I never thought I'd be saying.

Now, Denofeo has also said that this show does lead into Daredevil Born Again.

Now, Born Again, if I'm not wrong, is also part of the Marvel Spotlight banner, which is strange because isn't this banner all about you don't need to have any knowledge coming in?

But this would be the third, fourth thing that Daredevil's in.

You know, if you take Defenders as a separate thing, I don't know if they're undermining their own cause.

So are you telling me that Daredevil: Born Again's first episode is going to be a recap of Daredevil and Defenders?

And maybe a bit of She-Hulk?

And also some Echo?

So basically it's going to be five shows in one.

But here's the thing, we all know it's not going to happen, right?

Echo will have to face that situation where, oh, okay, you know, we never saw anything about Echo, we don't remember her.

But oh, Daredevil, we know it by heart.

It's just the hypocrisy.

I know we're harping on about it a lot, but to get into Echo, you literally had to watch one show.

One show, people.

You needed to watch more to get to know Kingpin.

Sometimes the optics of what Disney and Marvel do is questionable at best.

On the one hand, I love the fact that Disney and Marvel are giving us so much time with Maya.

We need her.

We need her history.

We need everything that comes with her experiences in the world as a person with two disabilities.

But on the other hand, five episodes.

One thing I'll say about media, entertainment media, what it does is, it gives us an introduction to histories and stories we would have never thought to learn about or even know about.

So here, you and I are learning more about the Choctaw people.

With Miss Marvel, for example, a lot of people learned that there was the partition of India.

They never even knew about this imperialist history.

So I do think that entertainment media is a good way for us to ask questions we never knew.

So that's where a show like this, which brings in all these new voices, is so integral, is so important.

Despite the fact that you and I think it's like half a story, Echo lives by its characters.

This amazing group of characters who I would love to see again.

I don't know how we will.

Where will they show up?

Can we have a season two?

But despite the many story issues, and there are, we're gonna have to admit it, there are story issues, I would highly recommend everybody watch this show.

This is an amazing entry into the MCU canon.

At some point, I would love to see Maya hang out with the Avengers, whatever makeup of Avengers we are going to get.

And maybe finally come to some resolution with her family as well.

I just really need to see more of Maya, her family, her very visceral action scenes.

Give us a season two Marvel.

And that's it from us for today.

We hope you enjoyed listening to us talk about Echo and I hope you will give this show a shot.

Ron: You can find us on Twitter @Stereo_Geeks. Or send us an email [email protected]. We hope you enjoyed this episode. And see you next week!

Mon: The Stereo Geeks logo was created using Canva. The music for our podcast comes courtesy Audionautix.

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