#before building these guys i wrote up a short google doc with just a couple words of personality for each of them which I think helped a lo
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got the band together! just about finished construction on nurgles humors. i may do a second pass to add some bonus nurglings or little details when the glue is all dry and I have some time but for now, I'm happy with everyones stances and general looks. only had to do additional putty surgery on one of my blightkings, since the belly I wanted didnt fit the legs/torso I still had- everyone else I could fit together just by chopping and sanding bits down so they fit.
the blightkings are as follows: spleen mulch, melancholic, carrying the dolorous tocsin and covered in bells. prius skurvax, phlegmatic, the icon bearer with the big insect arm. haxan globin, sanguine, the grinning guy with the nurgling bursting outta him. and icterus kanker, choleric, at the front with his two axes and big stomach mouth.
then of course we have have our leader, eucrasia hippocrux, along with their resident sorcerer tucked away back there, dyscrasia the humorless.
its really fun to build a warband with a stronger vision in place then my usual 'just wing it' style of mini builds! im also gonna try to reflect their character in the paint jobs, eventually. gonna build some test plaguebearers for painting practice before I commit to finishing the squad :)
#gutsys mini tag#nurgles good humors#warhammercommunity#warhammer fantasy#nurgle#i love the way Eucrasia towers over everyone.. he makes an awesome centerpiece for the warband#especially when surrounded by his blightkings#before building these guys i wrote up a short google doc with just a couple words of personality for each of them which I think helped a lo#building miniatures is all about Making Characters for me. its super fun to try to tell a story with your guys yknow?
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WRITING TIPS FOR PEOPLE WITH ADHD
You guys liked my other post with writing tips, so I thought I'd make a list for this too. I have ADHD combined type and I've written two novels and dozens of short stories, so here is what works for me!
If you have meds, take them a while before you start working and do something else. I like to play dress up games while I wait for them to kick in, because it's creative enough to wake up my brain. Doll Divine has really cool and artistic games. Only use activities that have clear end points so it's easier to stop when your meds have kicked in. Stay away from open world games or anything with an endless scroll.
Have special locations that you only use to write. Make sure you bring a flannel or jacket in case the AC is too cold, and bring headphones in case there's noises there. Try several different places until you find something comfortable. I like casual spaces where there's nooks and comfy chairs. Coffee shops are my go-to.
If you can't leave the house, sit in a particular spot in your room and make that your writing spot. Only sit in that spot when you're writing.
Speaking of headphones, rainymood.com is my go-to for drowning out noise. Usually I like background chatter, but if there's a buzzing fan or someone talking too loud on the phone, this site helps.
Start by re-reading what you wrote last time and making small edits. You might have to read it a few times before you can pay attention and that's okay. Just keep re-reading and making edits as you notice them until you feel more in the zone.
If you are at home, take breaks to put on music and jump around. I like Latin music for this purpose. If you're in public, try just walking around the building a couple times.
If I really can't get into it, for some reason it helps to take a break and make some tea. Green tea with ginger is calming enough to help me focus while also having a little boost of caffeine.
If you notice big changes need to be made and you can't relax until you deal with it but know it would take ages to fix, put it in a comment and move on.
If you want to get a big distracting section out of your way without totally deleting it, you can use a separate doc and copy paste it in there. Or download the SideNote add-on for Google docs.
Set reminders on your phone to eat and go to the bathroom in case you get too hyperfocused. I've forgotten to eat for entire days because I was writing, so it's good to have a back-up in case you go down the rabbit hole.
If you start getting really frustrated that you can't focus and you feel like you want to scream, take a break. Get a snack. Play sudoku. Make some coffee or tea. Sit outside. Be wary of checking your phone though, because it's easy to get wrapped up in that.
I tend to put all my usual fidget toys somewhere I can't get to them when I'm writing, because I find that if I pick one up to think, I can't put it back down to start typing. Everyone is different but look out for that and if you find them distracting you, set them aside.
Consider turning off your phone. If that's not an option, a lot of phones have a wellness feature that allows you to set app timers or turn your screen black and white. Consider setting your phone to go into wellness mode when it's time to write so it's less tempting.
Lastly, there are going to be days when it just doesn't work. Even with my meds, I sometimes just spend three hours beating my head against a wall and then go home. It's okay. Creative work is hard for anyone, especially when you're fighting your ADHD every step of the way. Don't beat yourself up and don't let it discourage you. Even if you didn't put anything down, you still spent some time thinking about writing, and that's worth something. Try again the next day and the day after and you'll get it eventually. The flow state is worth trying for.
Update: bolded some important items for accessibility
#writing#writing tips#writing help#writers#adhd#writing with adhd#adhd study tips#adhd studyblr#tips for writers#writeblr#studyblr
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Physical Therapy - Ch. 1 (Spencer)
WELCOME TO PHYSICAL THERAPY!! in honor of this bish starting physical therapy in real life (and missing it bc i can’t drive and my mom and i’s schedules not being synched on google calendar all the time) i’ve decided to write a fic about it. it will be a little series with a goal (yes, an end game) and it’ll be cute. some of it is based on actual things that happen and some is literally just the story. ENJOY.
gender: neutral
tw: nothing that i can think of
genre: fluff | angst
Description: After getting shot in the leg, spencer goes through physical therapy before he can get back in the field completely. What happens when he starts to fall for his physical therapy assistant?
__________________
Two honks at 6am meant that it was time for Spencer to get going. Derek was downstairs, in the car, waiting on boy wonder to crutch his way out of the apartment complex. Derek wasn’t sure how to feel about this trip considering he missed his early morning run for this but he knew how nervous Spencer was for his evaluation today so he didn’t mind as much as he could have minded.
Spencer was patiently waiting in a pair of very short shorts, mismatched socks, and running shoes. He threw on a t-shirt and looked in the mirror, noting how tired he looked. He hadn’t been sleeping well lately for some reason but he couldn’t be sure why. He combed out his hair one more time before he and his crutches headed to the elevators.
“Ready, kid?” Derek said, opening the front door for Spencer like a world class chauffeur would if Spencer was a celebrity.
“Ready as I’ll ever be,” Spencer mumbled.
In truth, Spencer was more than ready to get started on his physical therapy journey. He wanted to get back in the field full time, adrenaline pumping, connecting with victims, walking again. He didn’t mind the assisted mobility but it was hard for him to know that the best he could do sometimes was stay back in the office or hang out in Garcia’s batcave.
The car ride was filled with a comfortable silence between the two men. Derek was thinking about how he could make up his missed morning run by doing another type of high cardio workout while Spencer was just trying to figure out why it had to be him. He wouldn’t wish the frustration of his recovery process on anyone else on the team but the frustration of the recovery process just got to him on some days. Today was one of those days.
Derek pulled up to the physical therapy clinic sooner than Spencer hoped. Part of that was because Derek was a very fast driver while the other part was because Spencer wasn’t paying attention for most of the drive.
“You owe me one.” Derek said, completely joking. Well… Partially. That morning run was what kept him awake during the day, energizing him for work.
“Do you want to come in?” Spencer said, looking down at his hands in his lap.
Spencer’s hands were tapping his leg as he awaited Derek’s answer. He was nothing short of a nervous wreck on the inside. All he could think about was how much pain he would be in once the evaluation was over and the physical therapist had finished poking and prodding at his knee. He hated to think that it would be worse than everything else going on. Plus he still had to go to work today.
“Sure, kid.” Derek said.
Derek wasn’t going to sit in the car and do nothing the whole time so he might as well support his friend.
Climbing out of the car, the boys slowly made it to the sliding glass doors of the physical therapy clinic. Much to Spencer’s surprise, it was nothing like he originally imagined it to be. Some part of him thought it would somewhat resemble the clinic where his mother resided but it was completely different. There were floor to ceiling walls for over half of the first floor building. High tech equipment was stationed everywhere from anti gravity treadmills to hand bike motors, medicine balls and so much more. Spencer stood in the doorway, leaning on his crutches, while he took everything in. There was so much light in the air, it was almost like the feeling of recovery was airy and not meant to bog him down. This was a strange feeling for him to comprehend...
“You coming, pretty boy?” Derek called, taking a break from chatting with the pretty receptionist.
Spencer and his crutches walked over to the front desk and grabbed the paperwork that covered how much pain he was in today. He filled it out quickly, hoping to get everything over with sooner than later. He was already here so he might as well just finish everything quickly so he could get out of the place.
When he finished writing everything down, he returned the paperwork to the receptionist who slipped him a piece of paper and pointed to Derek. Spencer already knew it was the receptionist’s personal phone number and he didn’t even need to look at the paper. Sitting down, Spencer handed Derek to a very confused Derek before it hit him what it was. Derek winked at the receptionist, who blushed before answering the phone.
“Spencer?” A voice called his name shortly after he sat down.
It was nice to know that here, he didn’t have to be a doctor. He was just another person healing. He didn’t have to be smart, he could just exist.
“Good luck.” Derek said, noticing that Spencer’s hand was shaking in the slightest bit.
“My name is Nora and I will be your lead physical therapist.” The woman said, walking Spencer to a vacant padded table. It reminded Spencer of the types of tables you lay on when you get a massage.
He only got a massage once when Garcia got stood up on a couples’ massage date. He spent half of his part of the massage giving the masseuse facts about how their job could actually give them an infection from the amount of germs in the air and on the table. His delivery of facts caused the room to be incredibly uncomfortable and bleach the table very thoroughly. By the time he and the masseuse finished, only 5 minutes were left in the massage and Garcia was left horrified and amused at the same time.
“Don’t worry. We bleach the tables every time someone finishes a session.” Nora said, noticing the look on Spencer’s face. Spencer visibly relaxed and sat on the table.
“So, Spencer, tell me a little bit about yourself.” Nora followed up, pulling up a backless roller chair.
“Well, I was on a case and the unsub, unknown subject, shot at a dad but it ended up hitting me in the leg instead and…” Spencer paused, looking at Nora’s amused face.
“No, I mean tell me about you. Your hobbies, what you do for fun, things like that. I need to do a complete profile for you so I know how your quality of life has been affected and which exercises you can do at home so we aren’t pushing too fast.” Nora smiled at Spencer.
“I work.” Spencer said in a matter-of-fact tone. He didn’t really have anything else to say.
“Okay. So you’re a workaholic.” Nora wrote. She was about to ask a new question when you came quickly walking to Nora.
Spencer was left dumbfounded. There seemed to be a halo of light radiating around you, making you glow. He knew it was the sun finally rising but his brain short circuited as he continued to gaze at you.
“Hey Nora?” You said, looking down at your boss. “Mrs. Gillespi wants to know why you haven’t come back to check her form. She doesn’t trust me because, her words here, I ‘look like a child who doesn’t know their left foot from the color orange.’”
“Sure. Here, you can take over Spencer’s evaluation.” She handed you her clipboard.
You looked at the detailed notes on the paper and then up at Spencer, who looked like one of the youngest people here.
“It’s not often we get cute guys in this place. Other than Kyle. But Kyle’s an asshole who could almost be my dad.” You blurted, not realizing you said it outloud as soon as Nora left.
You noticed that he started blushing and looking at his converse and you realized that you said something. You usually spoke your thoughts out loud but the people you worked with were used to it so no one bothered to say anything.
“What?” You asked, confused.
“You called me cute.” Spencer said. “Which is fine. I don’t understand the appeal but I do believe that your blurting of what you perceive as a fact is a coping mechanism. It can also be tied to ADHD, which is a common mental disorder that causes your brain to impulsively say things.” Spencer paused, looking at your face.
“What?” You asked, again, confused.
“I’m not saying you have ADHD. I’m a doctor but not that kind of doctor. Although I could get another Ph. D. Prove my father wrong. And…” Spencer realized he was rambling.
“Cute and a talker.” You said, writing that down.
You wrote something down on the paper that Spencer couldn’t see but he was curious about.
“Let’s check out that leg.” You said, pulling out an instrument that looked like a compass.
You asked Spencer to move his knee certain ways and it wasn’t as bad as Spencer thought. You were gentle, soft even. Your hands were delicate and you ended the session massaging his leg and smiling at him.
“You were a good patient today, doctor Spencer.” You said, smiling at him.
Spencer blushed, unable to meet your eyes.
“You… I mean… I enjoyed our session.” Spencer said. “Which I don’t normally enjoy. Not that I’ve been shot before. Or had physical therapy. Or been here. Or even worked out really.”
“You’re funny, doc.” You smiled. “Your next appointment is Tuesday of next week according to the schedule so I guess I’ll see you then. I can’t wait.”
Spencer stared at you as he wondered why you were so excited.
“Why?” Spencer asked.
“It’s not every day I get the case for a cute guy who is smart and awkward. It’s almost like the heavens have answered my hopes and prayers.” You joked, looking up at the ceiling and putting your hand on your heart.
“I believe in science.” Spencer stated, grabbing his crutches.
“A man of science. Does it get any better? What’s your star sign?” You joked.
“Scorpio.” Spencer stated.
“Oop. All the scorpios I know have been some hoes. You better not be a hoe, doc.”
“I’m definitely not a gardening tool, if that’s what you’re referring to. Otherwise, I’d like to thing my lack of dating skills doesn’t qualify as being a… hoe? Although, I don’t believe in the use of the word to describe someone who enjoys spending time with multiple people. I’d like to think the use of the word is meant in jest and fun for a term of endearment.” Spencer stood up, balancing on his crutches.
“I’ll be the judge of that.” You said, walking slowly with Spencer to the front desk.
“What’s your name?” Spencer asked, turning to you. He realized that he never got your name.
“Y/n.” You smiled.
The clouds must have parted again because as soon as you turned to walk away from him, towards Nora, you were covered in another halo. And just like that, you were gone again.
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Future tag list:
@ellvswriting @sageandberries-png @l0ve-0f-my-life @rexorangecouny @kennedywxlsh
Want to be added? Tell me!
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FIC WRITER MEME
Tagged by @prince-luffy
AO3 name: DarkwingSnark
Fandoms: ...SEE, I’m in lots of fandoms. Or at least, I’ve written for them during hyper-fixation periods. Let’s see what AO3 says...
Batman: The Animated Series (20)
Batman - All Media Types (7)
Wander Over Yonder (Cartoon) (6)
DuckTales (Cartoon 1987) (5)
Penn Zero: Part-Time Hero (5)
Penguins of Madagascar (3)
James and the Giant Peach - Roald Dahl (3)
Darkwing Duck (Cartoon 1991) (3)
Disney - All Media Types (3)
Dan Vs. (2)
Milo Murphy's Law (2)
Randy Cunningham: 9th Grade Ninja (1)
The Batman (Cartoon) (1)
Lady and the Tramp (1955) (1)
Looney Tunes | Merrie Melodies (1)
Winnie-the-Pooh - All Media Types (1)
Alice in Wonderland (1951) (1)
Gummi Bears (TV) (1)
Winnie-the-Pooh (Disney) (1)
.... Honestly, I feel like there’s more that this list isn’t covering. Like Phineas and Ferb isn’t here and I wrote for that show too. And many of these can be simplified and condensed because they belong to similar fics.
Tropes: Depends on the fic. But as a whole, tend to write Romantic Comedies with a lot of slow burn. Mostly because... struggle is funny. People being dumdums and oblivious to the obvious is funny. Aaaaand also because it allows the episodic quality of shenanigans to occur.
Number of fics: Up and posted on AO3? 53. Does not include stuff on FF.net or that’s sitting in google docs begging to be finished.
Fic I spent the most time on: Not sure how to read this. Does it mean active man hours? Or does stuff like having a hiatus in-between count? Because TECHNICALLY ‘Real Value’ was started in high school, and I didn’t rewrite it and carry on the series (with Moonie) until many years later. There are also fics like ‘Growing Love’ or ‘Priorities’ that took a lot of time to do research. Like learning how to build a lawn mower so I could have a character believably break it apart for repairs.
....God I do a lot of research that doesn’t go into the actual fics. Because all I need, really, in the confidence of what I’m doing to be the character and describe an action here or there.
Fic I spent the least time on: Probably something drabble related? Or maybe the fic I did that was just me venting out emotions because I was feeling guilty? ‘A Mother’s Intuition’ was written and posted within a couple of hours.
Longest fic: Complicated. The longest thing written is technically an RP, NOT a story. (Different, trust me.) ‘What Happens in Gotham’ has a word count of 207,413. But fic wise at 89,022 word would be ‘The Constant Gardener’ .
Runner up being ‘Priorities’ at little over 87k.
Shortest fic: Drabbles? Uh, let’s see.. Probably from ‘Beauty and Your Worth’, as i think one was literally a paragraph long. ... Speaking of Gummi Bears, I wonder if I still have my notes on the GruffiGusto fic I wanted to write. Something to look into.
Most hits: Apparently ‘Fallen Hard’ at 5354
Most kudos: Also ‘Fallen Hard’ at 518. There... were more fans of Milo Murphy’s Law than I realised.
Most comment threads: ‘Fallen Hard’, 193 comments. ‘What Happens in Gotham’ following at 185.
Most bookmarks: .... that’s something people care about? I hardly ever bookmark things, since I read it in one go. But... I can look?
Ah.... ‘Fallen Hard’. 63
Total word count: 971,833 Oh hey! Almost a million. That’s something to celebrate.
Favorite fic I wrote: 'Knights of Dobenshire’. Hands down. (With ‘Heart of the Cards’ being very close.) I like writing road trip styled stories. It allows many things to happen within the narrative. BUT, ‘Knights of Dobenshire’ wins because it was such a satisfying conclusion of this build up, you know? Scrooge is finally no longer just putting up with the relationship with Fenton, but fully embracing it. That surprise feeling that hits him when he realizes, dear lord, he IS attracted to Fenton beyond affection.
It hits me more than a mutual pining because there I KNOW they will get together. But here? While writing with Moonie? I DIDN’T KNOW! I was worried in the end we’d have to write another fic to finally reach that step. Scrooge is stubborn and does what he wants, let me tell ya.
Fic you want to rewrite/expand on: 'Fallen Hard’, ‘Season of Miracles’, ‘Going with the Flow’, pretty much anything that isn’t complete. BUT, not posted, I really want to get back to more of the stories planned in the McCrack series. It was a ship I kinda made from the ground up, with nobody caring about it in the beginning. So it feels very important to see that series through.
Share a bit of a WIP or a story idea you’re planning on:
... Actually, I can share something from 'Donald’s Party (Working Title)’. @swampy-tiefling and I started. Just the first scene to get you guys hooked.
Donald took a deep breath of air from the doorway of the house and sighed, once again pleased to find himself at his home away from home. Traveling the seas and exploring the world with the navy were its own rewards, he supposed, but there would never be anything quite like the countryside-- the middle aged mallard having practically been raised on Grandma Duck’s farm. Donald Duck was happy to be on shore-- his naval carrier being docked for the week in Duckburg as they replenished supplies and took care of whatever repairs that were needed. Whatever excuse his bosses wanted to use were fine by him, he was just happy to not be scrubbing decks for a change!
That didn’t, however, mean he was able to rest and relax-- as the duck was startled out of his thoughts as somebody bumped into him. That somebody was his grandmother as she came to, just having caught her plate of cookies before they fell.
“My land, Donald! What in the world are you doing hiding here when you should be meetin’ and greetin’ the guests?”
Donald ignored the woman’s soft glare as he waved her off, using his other hand to steal a cookie in the process. Stuffing it in his mouth, he murmured out a response.
“Phooey, they’re just relatives.”
“Even more of a reason to go out and talk to them.” Before the sailor could argue, Grandma Duck placed the plate of treats into his hands. “And put these out on the snack table while you’re at it. Poor Fethry is looking peckish.”
Donald rolled his eyes, but otherwise did as he was told. Wasn’t it just like life to make him work at his own welcome home party? Walking towards the open yard where the party was taking place, it didn’t take long to reach the table, where his cousins were already gathered around as they chat.
This instantly caught the attention of the lankier duck, his gaze zoning in as he smiled widely towards Donald in greeting.
“Well if it ain’t the guest of honor, with snacks to boot!” Fethry leaned closer, his red hat wobbling with him as he continued to inquire. “Say, cuz, ya wouldn’t happen to know if these are gluten free, would ya?”
Donald gave him an unimpressed look.
“You’re not going on another crazy diet, are ya?” Though, in all honesty, he was more worried his looney cousin might try to drag him along-- and after months of eating nothing but mush, he would NOT miss out on his first chance to pig out on actual home cooked meals.
"Not crazy at all, actually!" Fethry grinned that goofy grin. "See, it's all right here; Gluten Free; It's the Way to Be' !" he shoved a rather lengthy-looking hard cover book in Donald's face. Donald had no choice but to stare at it, the words all blurring together from its close proximity to his eyes. The offending object remained there for only a second, however, before it was yanked back, the nutty mallard already busy flipping through it.
"Let's see, here, there's a fascinating chapter I think you should-- Don?"
Phew, that had been close. Donald was still in sneaking away mode, and jumped and yelped when he was tapped on the shoulder. Oh no. He'd been caught, after all. He slowly turned, with a forced, toothy grin, to face his fate.
A wave of relief washed over him when he saw his girlfriend, Daisy, smiling sweetly at him, instead.
“And where do you think you’re sneaking off to, Mister? You’ve been gone for so long, and here we are, with you haven’t even given me a kiss ‘hello’ yet.”
Now there was something Donald didn’t mind doing, as his girlfriend leaned in her face for her reward. Wrapping his arms around her, he planted the biggest of smooches to her temple.
“Gaww, I’m sorry Daisy. I really did miss you.”
This earned him a soft smile, as it was Daisy’s turn to kiss him on the forehead.
“And I missed you, hun. Now, tell me… why WERE you sneaking around?”
“Grandma put me on entertainment duty.”
“Well, �� his girlfriend began, “it IS your party, after all. They came to see you, seems fair to me.” This made the sailor groan as she looked at him unsympathetically. Rolling her eyes, the reporter sarcastically patted her boyfriend in comfort. “There there. Now don’t go sneaking off for real, the boys will be arriving soon. And Grandma tells me Uncle Scrooge will be bringing along a special guest.”
“Special guest?” Donald asked incredulously. “Like who?” This caused Daisy’s eyes to glimmer all the more in mischief, a look that told him that she knew something he didn’t know. And that something was big news, if he was reading her right.
“Oh, nobody TOO special, I suppose,” Daisy was stalling, and it was driving Donald up the wall. The duck woman continued her teasing. “Nobody except your uncle’s new date friend.”
"Date friend?" Donald practically exclaimed, prompting Daisy's grin to grow all the more smug.
"Yep! You've missed quite a bit since you've been away, you know."
"No kidding...well I'll be..." Donald was shaking his head, but he was smiling. Uncle Scrooge, dating, at his age... it was nothing short of a miracle. It was about time, too!
"Meanwhile, why don't you go say hi to the rest of the guests? I know it's hard..." she rolled her eyes. "but at least make an effort, okay? Thanks, hun!"
Donald's heart fluttered as she smooched his cheek, and left. He glanced out over the yard, and saw quite a few familiar faces; Gus, Ludwig, Gladstone... heck, even Gyro Gearloose had shown up!
He sighed, but this one wasn't a sigh of pure despair. It did feel nice to be home, surrounded by people who most likely cared, and his nephews were even going to show up soon. Not to mention, he'd get to tease his uncle for finally taking his advice on the whole dating thing.
That alone gave Donald the pep in his step he needed as he threw himself back into the party-- where he knew his crazed family would be waiting for him.
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date. | hwang hyunjin
this gif?? is a godsend??
pairing ↠ hyunjin x gender neutral!reader
genre ↠ some poorly-written fluff? slight enemies to lovers?? detective au!
wc ↠ 3234
summary ↠ friday evenings shouldn't be spent staring at case files. luckily, the universe has made plans for you.
warnings ↠ a biiit of swearing
a/n ↠ wow this is long overdue! hope you all enjoy reading this :') sorry in advance for the awkward spacing, i wrote this on a google doc first (and deleted it like a dumbass) so ig the copy+pasting got weird.
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Normally, Friday evenings would be spent at home, under several warm blankets and dim lights, your only company being a tub of Cookies and Cream ice cream, enough sweets to make your teeth ache and Chris Evans (he may be in your TV screen, but, for now, that presence is more than enough). But, clearly, Captain Woojin Kim has it out for you since he’s kept your squad and several others back to fish through a ship load of paperwork. You’re certain he’s adding more manila folders to your toppling pile each time you blink, your hands ache as you swap between signing papers and typing up incident reports.
Glancing at the clock on the wall, you notice it’s only been half an hour of filing, the clock’s hands ticking just past 5 o’clock. You reach for the mug of coffee that your Captain had so graciously gifted you before dropping the paperwork bombshell. Groaning at the realisation that your mug is now empty, you drop your head on the table. This wasn’t supposed to be a normal Friday evening; sure, filling in reports were different plans to your usual Netflix and chill, but on this particularly fine Friday, you actually had plans. Real plans. You hadn’t been extremely thrilled earlier this week for the blind date your friend had set up for you today, but now? Anything would be better than listening to Jisung repeat every single thing he was writing and typing and thinking. No amount of coffee could ever give you enough energy to deal with him.
You let out another groan, stretching your arms above your head, before grabbing your coffee mug to get a refill. Suddenly, you become a coffee boy as Jisung, Seungmin, Hyunjin, Felix and Minho -- who wasn’t even part of your team -- thrust out their arms, each of them holding an empty mug begging to be filled once more. Rolling your eyes, you walked straight past all of them to focus on your own mug. You laughed when they muttered curses, most choosing to continue with their reports. You set up the coffee machine, listening to its dull droning tone until the door swings open behind you.
“Thank you so much for the refill, y/n,” Hyunjin drawled, sarcasm slipping easily between his words, as he stood beside you.
“Anytime, Hyunjin.” You were not in the mood for Hyunjin’s quips -- especially not because he looked perfectly energetic when you could barely keep your eyes open. You huffed when the machine stopped working, letting out a long groan. “Stupid machine!”
“Step aside, let the master work his magic,” Hyunjin boasted, bumping you aside with his hip as he stretched his arms out in front of him, lacing his fingers together to crack them. He whacked the side of the machine harshly, grinning when it sputtered back to life, “That’s magic, baby!” He turned to you with a smirk, raising his eyebrows.
“Wow, that was so impressive.” You deadpanned, nudging him back in a similar manner. You placed your mug under the dispenser, pressing the button to fill it up.
“Worked like a charm,” his smirk never left and he turned to face you, leaning against the counter.
“Oh, definitely, I’m swooning,” you rolled your eyes -- a common gesture whenever you spoke to Hyunjin -- before grabbing your mug and stepping away.
“I knew you’d fall for me eventually.” He stayed unmoving, brown eyes practically teasing a reaction out of you.
And that was exactly why you could never have a proper conversation with the man. You’ve had your fair share of cocky men -- interrogating overconfident pimps was never your favourite task -- but at least you got paid to deal with those rich guys. There wasn’t enough money in the world to incite you into a willing conversation with Hyunjin. To the others, he was an absolute angel, going out of his way to help them, always cracking jokes to lighten the mood; to you, he was the devil’s incarnate: constantly looking for new ways to annoy you, taunting you at every possible instance -- the only time he’d gone out of his way for you was when he nitpicked through 5 of your cases, correcting any spelling mistakes and gaps. Long story short, Hwang Hyunjin was annoying. Great at his job -- there was no doubt about that -- but infuriating nonetheless.
“Anyway,” you sighed out, “goodbye, Hyunjin!”
Just as your free hand grabbed hold of the door knob, he yelled, “Wait!” Another sigh left you as you dropped the handle to turn around, raising a brow at him. A smirk briefly fluttered across his face, not quick enough for you to miss and it left you mentally questioning why you were still listening to him. “I heard you had a date tonight.” He watched you carefully, eyes meticulously observing every slight movement you made; you bit your tongue, not wanting to play into his games. When you gave no visible response, he continued, “Is it true?” He tilted his head innocently, but he was far from it, and you knew that.
You were sure he knew the answer to his own question, so why bother asking? To annoy you, of course.
“You’re a detective, work it out.”
-
Shutting your last folder, you heaved out a long sigh, rubbing the fatigue from your eyes. You were finally done. If you left now, you’d make it back to your apartment with enough time to shower before you needed to get ready and leave.
You grabbed the set of files you had just completed, pushing yourself away from your desk to put them away in the correct places. When you get back to your desk, Captain Woojin is there and you’re already dreading what he has to say.
“You’ve finished, right, y/n?”
Great. He probably had a ton of files in his office that needed completing, if the load in his hand was reflective of anything. He was probably watching and waiting -- like some sort of apex predator, a ravenous shark -- for someone to finish so he could dish out even more files, because who makes plans on a Friday evening? It wouldn’t hurt to lie to him, would it? No harm would be done, right?
“Yeah, I’m done.” You couldn’t lie. It would just hurt your conscience. Maybe this was a sign from the universe to not go on that blind date.
"Great, I can take those files for you, could you just drop this package off at the front desk?"
"Yeah, no problem." Could it be? Freedom? "Is that all?"
"Yes, thank you. Wouldn't want to keep your date waiting, right?"
The smile that had just started forming on your face was instantly wiped away when you saw the small grin on his face. He stacked the remaining files in his hand on Hyunjin's desk before leaving. You barely registered the snickers that left Hyunjin and Seungmin as you said your goodbyes and finally took leave.
Why did you ever think telling Felix about it was a good idea? Damn Detectives and their love for gossip.
-
It was a rush job but you made it on time. Getting home was fairly quick since you missed the rush hour traffic, and you're pretty sure that was the quickest you've ever showered and gotten ready in - if your date didn't appreciate all this effort, you were going to flip.
The place was fairly fancy -- low lighting, regal colours, the whole shebang -- and when the waiter led you to the reserved table, you couldn't help but look around at other diners' plates. Seriously, where was the rest of the meal? What was the point in having great tasting food if it barely filled you up? The pizza place a couple of blocks down seemed much more appealing right now, but you had to at least try to have fun today.
15 minutes. It had only been fifteen minutes but your eyes were drooping and your date still wasn't here. Once another ten went by, you picked up your phone and messaged the oh-so-amazing friend of yours that had set up this date in the first place.
You: chan???
You: hes not here and im tired, can i go home now??
Chan: He's not? :(
Chan: One sec, I'm messaging him
As you waited, you decided rubbing your freedom in Felix's face was a great pastime.
You: you still alive??
You: actually no, is jisung still alive or have you finally killed him?
Felix: killing him would just be more paperwork that my ass can't handle. I'm seeing folders every time i blink, put me out of my misery
You: you're still there??
Felix: lmao no, the Mins and i escaped, and Cap kicked Sung out when he started singing I Want It That Way
Felix: so your boy Hyunjinnie is the only one there ;^) must be a shit date if you're here texting me, but you could go in and keep him company if you know what i mean ;))))
You: i have no idea what you mean
After seeing the series of hearts and kiss emojis he sent you after, you came to the conclusion ignoring Felix was a much better pastime.
Chan: Shit
Chan: Asshole's not replying to me
Chan: I'm sorry y/n :/
Chan: Wtf he left me on read wtf
Chan: I'm pretty sure he's already given his card details to that place, rinse his money
After confirming with your waiter, who probably realised that you had been stood up, you decided to make good on what Chan said and buy some food. If the guy wasn't going to show up, you weren't just going to let an open tab go to waste.
You ordered two of the most expensive meals off the menu and a slice of cheesecake to lift up your mood.
-
Why did the precinct have to be there on your way back? As soon as you passed it, you remembered what Felix said about Hyunjin still being there. You wondered why he was staying back when the others had gotten out earlier, and you blame that reasoning alone for why you turned your car around and headed into the building.
He really was there. Legs on his desk, keyboard on his lap, typing with one hand and drinking coffee with the other, Hyunjin was a sight to behold. His shirt was crumpled, sleeves creased from being rolled up, and his hair was wild, sticking up at gravity-defying angles. You watched as his eyes skimmed over the text on his computer, unblinking even as he took another sip from the mug.
"Wow, you look like shit." You grinned, dropping the takeaway bags on your desk. You laughed when your presence startled him into jumping, coffee splashing down his forearm, chair rolling away from his desk, keyboard hanging dangerously over the edge.
"Y-You're back?"
"Clearly," amusement never left your eyes as you watched him fix his dishevelled state. You tossed the box of tissues on your desk to him and he smiled in thanks. Once he had finally wiped away the mess, picked up his keyboard and tamed his hair, he leaned back in his chair and swivelled to face you.
"Bad date?" The smirk on his face did nothing to make you forget the vision you just saw, and you would not let him have the upper hand.
"I just saw you singing Thank you, Next, don't try to mock me."
"I'll buy you coffee for a month if you don't tell the others?"
"Two months."
He huffed, but agreed anyway.
"And you have to get it from Carla's place."
"But that's so far away," he whined, pouting and all.
"I got the whole thing on video, so…"
"I'd be honoured to go!"
After a couple of minutes of (strangely comfortable) silence, you spoke up. "Have you even eaten yet?"
"Must've been a real bad date if you got takeaway," he snorted, rolling his chair to your desk before leaning an elbow on it, "What've you got?"
You pulled out the three containers, pushing one over to Hyunjin. "Ooh, Valentino's, how fancy." He rolled back to his desk, rummaging through a drawer to pull out the cutlery he had stashed there. You did the same as he shimmied back -- you had learned, rather quickly in your first week here, that it was best to keep your dishes safe in your desks if you wanted them to stay clean.
The food was still fairly warm as you ate, but, like all fancy restaurants, there was barely any food there to eat. Even after you split the cheesecake, you could feel your stomach on the edge of rumbling, and taking one look at Hyunjin told you he felt the same.
"You up for Chinese?" He grinned, licking away the remnants of cream from his fork, "I'll even pay."
"You done with your reports?" You glanced at his abandoned computer as he groaned.
"I hate Cap."
You laughed as he dragged a hand down his face, letting out a tired sigh. "He gave you more?"
"Well, yeah, sorta, I kinda asked for them."
"You deserve this then." You chuckled, curiously continuing, "Why'd you do that?"
At that, he chanced a glance at you before looking down at the fork he was twiddling between his fingers. "He was gonna give 'em to you, but I told him you had a date."
You narrowed your eyes at him, "Now why would you do that?"
He shrugged, as though he hadn't just lightened your load despite your rivalry, "You had plans, I didn't. Plus, you could use the break," then, in true annoying Hyunjin fashion, he smirked, "you look like shit."
You didn't dignify that with a verbal response, choosing to kick -- not so lightly -- him in the shin. You grinned at his yelped curse. He leaned down to rub his leg, pouting, "I was kidding- fuck, that hurts, you look…" he took the chance to scrutinise your appearance, eyes dancing with mirth as you shifted under his gaze. "You look okay."
"Okay?"
"Fine." He huffed, "you look fine. Alright. Decent. Nice."
He had rolled back to his desk before you could recognise his rising blush or form a reply. Was that supposed to be a compliment? He was so focussed on his screen now that you decided it must have been a compliment if he was shying away from you now. You smiled at that -- seriously, y/n? falling for the enemy? -- before you grabbed the used cutlery, going to the break room to wash them.
-
Once you finished washing up in the tiny sink, you headed over to Hyunjin. You hid your smirk when he tensed up ever so slightly as you dropped his cutlery on his desk; he took extra care in keeping his eyes on his screen, but you still noticed the slight hitch in the way he tapped at his keyboard, giving away his nerves to your trained eye.
Was he seriously still nervous about having given you a compliment? Did he regret it?
You said nothing, however, choosing to head back to your own desk before leaving the precinct. Without so much as a goodbye, Hyunjin watched -- eyes downcast, yet you'd never know -- as you walked away.
-
Hyunjin was a detective. A damn good detective, and he got your signal loud and clear.
Taking your reports from Woojin was a leap of faith, of sorts; he never intended on telling you that he took them -- or worse, why he really did -- but he thought that lightening your load on a Friday evening was a nice gesture and possibly a step in the right direction.
He thought, for once, the universe was working out in his favour, because even though he had piled on more work for himself than necessary, the stars aligned and you were brought back to him. God, his internal monologue was dramatic.
It was a crush. For the past three weeks and four days, Hyunjin had developed a somewhat crush on you. The teasing continued, of course, but the longing gazes he gave you -- which, thankfully, you never seemed to notice -- made him awfully aware of how much he liked spending time with you, even if you were spitting fire and mocking him.
But now, your rejection was blatantly obvious. Like a siren wailing right in front of him, he got the message. You completely ignored his compliment -- a sad attempt, really, but it was something -- and Hyunjin knew you knew what he was really hinting at (y/n, you look more than just okay, you look--) but words, it seemed, just weren't his forte, and he swivelled his chair away before he had to face the disgust that probably painted your face. And you said nothing. The silence that followed was deafening because he realised his shitty compliment -- yes, he'd finally come to terms that it was pathetic -- had made you feel so awkward, so uncomfortable, that you couldn't even speak to him; instead, he had to listen to water splashing, cutlery tinkling and you walking away.
--stunning.
-
He wasn't asleep. He had half a mind to just shove whoever kept poking him and not letting him wallow in his arms. He was allowed to be sad: the person he kind of, maybe, possibly, had feelings for had just up and left him alone in an empty squad room, he could pout for a few moments longer. The incessant nudges didn't poke through Hyunjin's bubble and it made him wonder, one, who the hell was still touching him? and two, what was the goddamn time, because he was sure the pokes had lasted forever and a day, and he still had two more reports to go over.
On a newly-thought-of third note, it made him finally aware of the scent of spices weaseling into his pity party.
His head snapped up, jaw dropping only slightly when he saw it was you.
Really and truly, you.
Holding Chinese from that one store just down the road.
Fucking finally, you muttered, but he was still shocked that you were here, on your own chair, but right beside him, with more containers actually filled to the brim with his favourite food from his favourite place.
But more importantly, you were right beside him.
"Dig in," you murmured, waiting for him to start eating first.
You were momentarily blinded by the grin he gave you, before he began eating and you followed.
After you finished eating -- hunger thoroughly sated -- you decided that maybe spending some more time with Hyunjin wouldn't be so bad.
No, you were only going to stay because technically these were your reports and you didn't want to owe him any favours he could use against you. It wasn't because two weeks and five days ago you had developed a small, barely there, practically non-existent, crush on the man beside you.
It certainly wasn't because you were totally aware now of the way he was smiling at you as you proofread the final report.
And it most definitely wasn't because his lips had your own turning up into a smile.
"You're staring." You said, eyes skimming through line after line of police work.
"I know."
"Why?"
"Because…" he trailed off, scooting the slightest bit closer as his arm snaked around the back of your chair so he could roll you even closer too, "you look--"
-
yo pls tell me wtf this is bc i have no idea. it's almost 4am, im at 11% but ya boi is done™ hope u liked this bc i had no idea where i was going with this, the idea was a lot cuter in my head but oh well :'')
#stray kids#hwang hyunjin#straykidznet#sk-writersnet#skzinc#stray kids scenarios#hyunjin scenarios#hyunjin x reader#stray kids fluff#hyunjin fluff#stray kids imagines#stray kids hwang#stray kids hyunjin#hyunjin#stray kids writing#kpop scenarios#kpop fluff#kpop imagines#kpop writing#detective au#enemies to lovers#hyj
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Hi :) This might sound weird haha but I adore reading you talk about your writing, it's really inspiring and I feel like I learn a lot of things every time I read you talk about it (you know I'm a fan of your style haha). And anyways while I was reading your answer to your last anon, this struck me: "when i was outlining that chapter i think the only line i dedicated to the actual fight itself was “and then they have a crazy knife fight (good luck future me)”" and I wanted to ask you (1/2?)
(2/3?) do you have like any tips for writing a multichapters fic? I guess from what you wrote here you outline the whole thing before you start with it? Or it depends or the story and sometimes you just go with the flow and see where it goes haha? Do you mind sharing some of your writing process of multichapter fics? :3 Bc I tend to get "bored" really easily and if I don't finish something in one sitting I usually never ever finish it. But also I'd like to learn how to take my time sometimes
(3/3) and idk maybe learning how to properly "get ready" to write something long would help haha. I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense at all but yeah in any case just thank you for blessing my nights with your fics and killing me over and over with feels, I'm sure I said it before but you (and all of the amazing writers this fandom is blessed with) are a true inspiration!!!
you are SO sweet to me i die fhflkdsjf
i’m gonna go ahead and throw 100% of my answer under the cut because i haven’t even started yet and i know this is about to be. So Long. i am sorry in advance lmao
there are a couple of different aspects to this ask that i want to touch on so i will be as brief as possible but as i have proven twice over tonight alone, i am really not capable of that lmfao
i’d say first and foremost, the biggest thing you can do to help yourself in this arena is figure out how to best discipline yourself. which SUCKS it’s like the worst most mom answer ever but in all honesty, developing discipline in writing is what separates the “i could write a book” people from the people who actually do write books. everyone is capable of writing, but not everyone has the discipline or patience to do so. long-form narrative requires even MORE discipline than a one-shot (or even a long one-shot) because it’s like you said, it requires the author to come back over and over and over again to write new material and edit existing material and figure out a way to cohesively connect everything they’ve written into one consistent narrative, and some people have a much harder time with that than others do. there’s nothing wrong with that either way!! the world needs short stories just as much as it needs longer stories. but if you’re wanting to work on writing longer-form narratives, working out a way to best discipline yourself should probably be your number-one goal.
that kind of brings me to my next point (and also ties in part of what i was talking about in that other ask) - comparing your writing style, your progress, your everything to other writers will only lead to heartache for you. when i first started reading and writing for b99 i came across a specific author (who is now one of my dear friends) whose fics were just. next-level works of art. and while i read through just about everything she’d written for b99 and LOVED every single one of them, i found myself getting more and more down on my own writing, because i knew i’d never be able to write like her. but the more comfortable and confident i got in my own writing, the more i realized that it’s less about writing more like That Person and more about developing my own style (my favorite comparison to make between my writing and hers now is that hers are like beautiful and intricate fairy tales, and mine are more of a smokey back room at a bar where a guy is sitting alone at a table and he says “come here and listen to this story.” they’re both Very Different, and perhaps have varying audiences, but one is not inherently Better Or Worse than the other). all of this to say, if you’re working as hard as you can and being really disciplined but still find yourself struggling with writing a multichap, THAT’S OKAY!!! there’s NOTHING wrong with that!!! your writing, however short or long, serves an INCREDIBLY important purpose within the fandom as a whole and no matter what, there will ALWAYS be an audience for your writing.
so okay as for the actual Advice!!! i actually have a couple of steps that i usually follow prior to actually Writing the first chapter of any long fic i’ve written (or am in the process of writing...@king and lionheart yikes). i have yet to really find any consistency in how i think of ideas for multichaps - so far the idea every multichap i’ve written has come from a different source (which is actually kind of Frustrating for reasons i won’t get into). but basically once i actually have An Idea, i’ll take a day or two to kind of think it over and flesh it out as much as possible. if it really starts expanding in detail and an actual Story constructs itself around the idea, i’ll move on to the next step, which is to find a few trusted mutuals here on tungle.corn and say “heyyYYY CAN I YELL ABOUT AN IDEA I HAVE FOR A SECOND” and then spill everything i’ve thought of so far. usually i can tell if an idea will live or die based on these conversations - if the other person is Into It and we start sort of developing the world within the chat, i know it’s time to really sit down and make an effort to pursue the fic. in that case, i will go and copy&paste that part of our chat into a google doc and i’ll build an outline in a separate doc. i used to despise outlines and i would refuse to do them in high school, but once i got into writing as a hobby and i started pursuing longer narrative forms, i tried once or twice to write a multichap without an outline and i just forgot a lot of the details i originally wanted to include, which left me feeling really frustrated with myself and with my writing. i came to realize that outlines kind of a necessary evil, so in writing them i made them as fun for me as possible (i.e. the “good luck future me” line from the king and lionheart outline i mentioned lmao). now i love them and i have them open at all times while i’m working on writing a new chapter.
so i know that i started this off by saying that writing multichaps requires a special kind of discipline, and i stand by that, but also...writer’s block and real life responsibility and just plain exhaustion are all Very Real Things, and they take precedent over keeping up with a publishing schedule (if you’re so inclined to make one of those for yourself). when i started writing king and lionheart, i didn’t know at that point that i would be headed back to school in the spring, and thought that i would have all the time in the world to write. right around november, i realized that i would be going back to school - that’s about the time i took an unofficial hiatus from writing king and lionheart, because i knew trying to keep up with writing that fic the way that i want it to be written and all of the intensive and demanding coursework was going to kill me. taking a step back from posting and coming back to it later is okay. i know i talk a lot about feeling guilty for not having an update for king and lionheart (and the cancer au before it) but in all honesty i know that it’s okay for me to take some time and deal with my real life. and, you know, it’s also okay to lose inspiration for a while and to take a step back until that inspiration comes back. i think it’s that fear of not being able to take longer breaks between updates that scares a lot of people off from even trying to write a multichap - as the queen of procrastination, i am here to tell you that it is 100% okay to start a multichap and to take a break and come back to it when necessary!
writing a multichap is very much like running a marathon - it requires a different kind of energy than a 400 meter sprint or a 1k fluffy oneshot. it’s gonna hurt and it’s gonna suck and there are gonna be times when you’re ready to just quit writing altogether. but there will be parts that are really fun and really easy and you’re gonna get some really great views along the way - and at the end when you cross that finish line and you’re able to check that “complete” box on ao3 before you post the last chapter, you won’t remember the parts that sucked. trust me!! i wouldn’t write as many as i do if the actual shitty parts of the writing process negated the good things that come from writing it and sharing it with other people!
it’s also worth noting that just because you get bored with an idea doesn’t mean that you can’t pick it up again later!!! honestly the first 2 or 3 paragraphs of on your heart like a tattoo sat in my google docs for MONTHS before i randomly decided one day to open it and take a crack at finishing it, and to this DAY i’m still getting people regularly commenting on it. every idea has its purpose and its place, even if it doesn’t always immediately seem like it.
i really hope this helps and i’m sorry if it doesn’t!!! you are such a kind and wonderful person and i absolutely adore you
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One of the more amusing family stories I sometimes tell is about a relative of mine, a few generations back, who moved in with another man after his wife died. Ooh, everybody goes. Salacious family gossip! Except the little town they moved to was actually Lily Dale Assembly, in upstate New York, which so far as I know is still one of the oldest continually running Spiritualist communes in the United States. Harry and Edward moved up there so that Edward, ex-model and former elder in the Presbyterian church, could start on what I think was his third career as a spirit medium. He channeled the spirit of an Edwardian actress named Lillie Langtry, also known as "the Jersey Rose". At this point, the whole 'shacked up with his boyfriend' thing has become the least interesting part of the story, and people begin to look at me funny. My parents fucked things up in many respects, several of them so egregious that I haven't spoken to them in years, but I want to give credit where credit is due. They never sat us down to have a talk about how some boys like boys and some girls like girls, and they were all people just like anyone else. It was stupidly obvious. My mother talked about "Harry and Edward" in the same tone she used for "Aunt Helen and Uncle Bob". Except friendlier, as Uncle Bob was known to be a lecher who eyeballed the teenage cousins, and we mysteriously saw a lot less of him after I was about twelve. I was probably in college -- so, old enough for my own friends to start coming out -- before I thought about it long enough to realize how unusual this was. There are a lot of families where I never would have heard about Harry, because they would have disavowed any knowledge of his existence as soon as they found out about his "friend". Tracing LGBT+ relatives can be tricky. They tend to lack a lot of paperwork that straight couples would have. Not just legit marriage certificates -- which don't always exist -- but a lot of other records that are predicated on the assumption that there is a marriage certificate, somewhere. Fifty years ago, John Doe and Roberta Roe could move halfway across the country together and apply for an apartment as "Mr. and Mrs. John Doe", and nobody would ever check. The only way to get that information, pre-internet, was to find out where the marriage would have been officiated, write to the appropriate county clerk (with a processing fee enclosed), and wait 4-6 weeks to see if you got an illegible photocopy or a 'no such file exists' form letter back. No landlord was going to do that. They'd look at you, make a snap judgement on whether you were likely to grow forty tons of weed in their rental property, and ask if you had first, last, and deposit. After you have a lease as "John and Roberta Doe", you can start getting utility bills, phone lines, library cards, checking accounts, even state IDs, depending on where (and when) you were. My own parents are a good example of how this works. My mother used her maiden name right up until she was lying in a hospital bed with a newborn (me), and the nuns filing the paperwork were confused by the concept of putting a different surname down for mother and child. My mother, who was understandably short on patience, finally relented and told them to use Dad's name for everybody. (In her words, "I was afraid they were gonna lose you.") They weren't legally married until I was three, and they only did it because we had moved from Little Canada to a state that even today spits in the face of social progress, and Dad's new health insurance wouldn't otherwise have covered anybody else. Mind you, my college FAFSA papers said they'd been filing taxes as married since 1978. My mother was never one to let a little thing like federal tax law prevent her from doing as she damn well pleased. In Harry and Edward's case, we do have some documentation: Harry wrote memoirs. My mother had a copy, and I've read it. They're mostly about the spirit medium stuff, but there's a fair bit about life as well, and they were hilariously domestic. You would have to engage in mental gymnastics of a phenomenal order to read the two of them as anything but a couple. I seem to recall Harry's daughter either writing to or visiting them in Lily Dale; according to the family, she was mainly just happy her father had settled down with someone who could cook, so he'd stop living on scrambled eggs and spaghetti. I've had no luck so far finding a copy of my own. Partly because it was privately published by someone who evidently went out of business 30+ years ago, but mostly because I didn't have any full names for anybody. The family has only ever referred to Harry as "Uncle Doc Harry". He wasn't a doctor of anything, but he did have an MSW, and for that time and that branch of the family, that was a pretty high-falutin' education. I'm still not sure if he was my great-uncle or my great-great-uncle. My grandfather was from a gigantic Irish Catholic farm family, where there were so many kids with such a range of ages that the eldest grandkids used to babysit their youngest aunts and uncles. It was without a great deal of hope that I prodded the Lily Dale Assembly at about 2 am one night, via their Facebook page. Yes, they have a Facebook page. Of course they have a Facebook page. Another thing you have to consider when nosing around after your queer kin is how to frame it. Somewhere conservative, I probably would have inquired after Harry, mentioning at some point that he used to share a house with someone named Edward. The Assembly, though? The Spiritualists are justifiably proud of their history of being early adopters of things like women's suffrage, feminism, and universal civil rights. They attract a lot of weirdos because they treat the weirdos like valid human beings. I was asking after people who would still be in the living memory of older residents, and a town like Lily Dale would have remembered them as the boring middle-aged married couple. So I just asked about my relatives, plural, Harry and Edward, and mentioned the ghost actress, figuring it would have been pretty unique even for a place like that. I expected to get a teenage intern, who had no idea what I was talking about, but could at least give me some way to get in contact with the town registrar or whatever a Spiritualist commune has. No. Oh, no. Whoever was answering their messages knew exactly who I was talking about, because they used to live across the street. Not only told me where the two of them went, but described the house they bought when they moved out of town in the early '90s. What the actual fuck. Thus armed with useful things like surnames, I went off to Google some more. I still haven't had any luck finding the book; when I first read it, online shopping was already a thing, and I found it eerie as hell to be physically holding a book that had no listing on Amazon. It has an AISN now, as someone evidently sold a signed copy on Amazon once, but no ISBN, and therefore no WorldCat entry. If it exists in any library I can get to, I'm not sure I have any way to ask for it. I can't find their obituaries, either -- my guess is they ran in the newspaper of the small town they lived in after Lily Dale, but the online archives have a big gap between 1989, when their microfiche scans end, and the 2000s, when someone bothered building them a website. If they have headstones, nobody's taken pictures of them for FindAGrave.com. I threw their names at Spokeo and WhitePages and the like, to see if whoever survived longest had moved elsewhere to be with other family, and made an interesting discovery. Directories like that scrape data from other places. Mailing lists, public records, that sort of thing. Most people have at least one "AKA" listing, where they did or didn't use their middle initial for something, or went by Kathy instead of Katherine. Harry seems to have really been Harry, never Harold, which fits with the family naming habits. I did dig up a middle name, and it does tally with the one on the picture of the book cover on Amazon out-of-stock listing, so at least I know I'm tracking the right guy. So far as I can tell from his AKAs, Edward never went by Ed or Eddie -- but he did, at some point in his life, go by Harry's surname. It's exactly the sort of middle finger to convention I would expect from any relative of mine, really. Fuck you, mainstream society, we're married. One of the places it's noted is on a profile for one of the ancestry services that says it was created and maintained by his brother, so at least some of his family seems to have treated them the same way Harry's did. It actually makes me wonder if they had some sort of commitment ceremony at some point. (Beyond signing a joint mortgage on at least one house, I mean. Those are way harder to get out of than a marriage.) There wouldn't be any records filed with the State of New York -- although there's always the chance they were smart enough to file legal papers giving power of attorney and leaving their estate to the other one -- but if it happened in Lily Dale, the Assembly might have noted it. from Blogger https://ift.tt/2zVc9Bw via IFTTT -------------------- Enjoy my writing? Consider becoming a Patron, subscribing via Kindle, or just toss a little something in my tip jar. Thanks!
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Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results
Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results
Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing
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John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Garrett Moon. He is the CEO and Co-Founder at CoSchedule. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, “10x Marketing Formula: Your Blueprint for Creating ‘Competition-Free Content’ That Stands Out and Gets Results.” So Garrett, thanks for joining me.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, thanks John. Thanks for having me on.
John Jantsch: So we have been saying for I don’t know, it seems like a decade, that content is king, and I guess there’s a lot of business owners that are out there still saying, “Is it really?” So, what are we missing?
Garrett Moon: I think that’s kind of been a good summary of some of the things I’ve been seeing going on in the industry, and as I’ve been talking to people at conferences, and just fellow marketers, that for last year or so, that’s the kind of question we’re asking. Is content marketing really driving ROI? Is it really giving our business the value that it needs to be giving?
I feel like in a lot of ways there’s a lot of disappointment and frustration with some of those results and returns. I think about Gartner’s Hype Cycle, and I’m sure it’s something a lot of people are familiar with, but it’s just a way that Gartner maps out how a new piece of technology is adopted.
It’s just this really, when something new comes out, you get some people very excited about it, and it generates a lot of hype, and a lot of talk, and a lot of big ideas, and it drives a lot of adoption very quickly. But what happens once you reach that apex, you have something called the trough of disillusionment, which is just as quickly as it went up, it goes right back down, and people are disappointed with the results that they’re getting from that new piece of technology.
I think with content we’ve hit that a little bit, right? We’ve adopted it, we’ve got the budgets for it, we’ve built the teams for it, but it’s not always giving us the results we want, and that’s the questions that we’re asking right now.
John Jantsch: I guess there’s a couple of things. Before we called it content marketing, I was producing content around the turn of the century, and it got a lot of attention. It drove ROI like crazy, because there just wasn’t that much competition. So, I mean, I think a couple of things are going on. I think two things. First off, we’re just saturated now. I mean, there’s just so much of it, because everybody got the message, but I think the other thing, too, is a lot of marketers just interpreted it as more was better. I think that’s exacerbated the problem.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think one of the things I talk about in the book is something called competition free content, and really what that is is about starting to see, it’s coming to exactly what you’re saying here, where you need to start looking at the industry, not that you’re just producing marketing that goes out and does its job, but your marketing itself is actually competing against other folks’ marketing.
I think in the content world, when you’re maybe in the old advertising days, if you’re doing direct mail or you’re doing TV, it’s really easy to think about that stuff, but when you’re self-publishing, when you’re using content, you forget that that content is in competition with everybody else in your industry. They’re all doing content marketing, too, you know?
It’s not like it used to be, where the only, in your world of competitors, if you’re the one on Facebook, or if you’re the one doing content marketing, no one else is. It was a big improvement. It’s not that way anymore. Now they’re all there already, so you’ve got to do something that differentiates yourself from the crowd for it to actually work.
John Jantsch: I think another thing that I run across a lot is that people have trouble wrapping their heads around the different intent for maybe different kinds of content, that there’s awareness content, and trust building content, and education, and insight, and nurturing, and even referral content.
I think that’s the part that not all of content is created equal or has a specific intention, and that’s a part I think where people really miss the boat on this ROI.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think some of that just comes from we’re publishing content, and that’s the goal, versus really thinking about where in my customer’s journey is this targeted at, and what is the exact call to action? I always think of it like this. Like, if you published a piece of content, and when your reader finishes consuming that content, or listener or whatever it is, and you only could have them do one thing afterwards, what would that one thing be, right?
Like, that I think, that one question can really help clarify that. It’s sort of a way to short circuit what it might be, because they might say, “Well, if I could just get an email address after that content, or as they consume that content, that’d be good enough for me,” right? Like, “I want them to join our audience so we can have communication,” or, “I want them to follow me on some network” or, “I want them to purchase something,” right?
That’s a whole different type of thing, but it can help you focus that content much more quickly.
John Jantsch: I think the thing that the early part of that journey is where I see people really struggle with. A lot of people get, “I want to sell something to somebody” but a lot of times all people know is they have a problem. They have not attached that problem to any solution or any approach at all, and so getting people to write content that articulates that we know the problem in your life seems to be the hardest content, but I think it’s the most effective.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely agree. Absolutely.
John Jantsch: How do you get, when you start thinking about awareness content, that to me many times just has to be about, “Hey, we know your problem,” how do you get people to focus on that? Because a lot of times, that will have absolutely nothing to do with your product or service.
Garrett Moon: For sure. One of the frameworks I like is something we call content core, and it’s just an exercise that we’ve developed, and we did internally in a variety of different formats. We’ve boiled it down to this topic that we call the content core. What it is really about doing is figuring out what are the content topics where there’s this overlap?
On one side, you need a content topic that is going to solve a problem that a customer has, right? I think the word customer to me is very important there. Not that a reader has, not that just some guy or gal searching the internet, but it’s actually a customer. What problems are your customers, the ones that actually end up putting money in the cash register, what problems are they experiencing?
Then, where do those problems overlap with the value that you provide as a business? In terms of how do their problems overlap with your solution? And not your solution in terms of content, exclusively, but actually your solution as a business, or as a service, or an organization, whatever you might be.
Really seeing where those overlap is the key, and now what you have to do is back out and say, “Okay well, how do I help them solve that problem in a way that provides value? We’re not getting away from the traditional ideas of content marketing here. We’re looking to provide the value. In fact, we go so far as CoSchedule is, we’ll actually provide you with a perfectly great solution for that.
One example is we have a feature on our … We make marketing software, and we launched a feature that helps our customers plan marketing campaigns. The problem that they have is, well, a lot of times when they’re planning marketing campaigns that are multifaceted, there’s multiple moving parts, emails and blog posts, and social, and all these different things, they’re spread out across all these different tools.
So, for them, it was really difficult to see, to have single visibility on how this campaign is doing. Is the team producing it? What are the results we’re getting? That single point of visibility was the problem. So, what we did was we actually wrote a series, several different posts that were all focused on that exact problem, right? How to manage marketing projects so you don’t go crazy, right? Like, how to keep everything from your one marketing campaign in one place, and our content actually provided an Excel spreadsheet, I think it was like a Google Doc document that you could use for planning and managing those items.
So, CoSchedule certainly could help them. That’d be one possibility, but we also provided a completely independent, fully serviceable solution that helped ease their pain point. It’s a way where you can meld that problem versus solution, but still provide that real value, and a connection to your brand. The win there is that they’re associating the solution to that problem with your brand versus just providing you traffic and clicks, which is relatively easy to get these days.
John Jantsch: I think what you just outlined there has become the bar to entry, and I think that’s maybe one of the challenges, is that people maybe aren’t willing to go that far.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, and I think that’s true. I think sometimes early days, you settle for those parallel topics that I talk about. The ones that run parallel to your business, and they’re these types of things where your audience is interested in this. For CoSchedule, that might be something like 10 free marketing tips, right? Our 10 free best marketing ideas, just like a list post or something, where it’s relatively generic content, and our audience is certainly interested in it. They like to consume that, they might even share it, but it doesn’t really connect them with the value that we provide as a company. Doesn’t connect them to why we exist.
So, I think it’s sometimes, it’s just making that leap, getting passed that parallel stuff and into the type of content that really can dig in and provide value and results for the business.
John Jantsch: When you plan content, and we can unpack your four phases of planning, execution, publishing, and analysis. We probably should do that, but when you plan content, how do you reconcile the fact that I think content is really what powers just about every channel? I think it powers advertising, it powers email, it powers social, it powers PR. Do you plan this core content or content core, I’m sorry, to be adaptable to all of those channels?
Garrett Moon: That’s a great question. I think it sort of does, and we’ve always done that exercise on more of a creating content for our blog, right? Is a primary source of where everything’s beginning. But I think inevitability it all bleeds over. There’s a lot of times where we’re working on lists and ideas for topics for our blog or for eBooks or something like that, and it’ll start to bleed over into some of our paid efforts. Those ideas will start to carry over and we’ll start building landing pages and paid campaigns.
It definitely bleeds over into how we do email, so I think so much of that is driven by the core content pieces that you’re creating anyhow, that it just ends up bleeding over rather than having to be something that you focus on doing. I think if you really find good content core topics, I think as a marketing team, it will just naturally focus you on the right stuff, and that will carry over.
John Jantsch: Yeah, I have been saying for a couple of years that I think content really is the voice of strategy, so I think that’s a good way to encapsulate that.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I like that.
John Jantsch: So let’s talk editorial calendars then. First off, I’m going to ask you if you think just about everybody needs one, but then also, how do people manage the fact that, really when it used to just be an offline spreadsheet even, maybe is how people did it originally, but then we started bringing in all of these online places. We had something in WordPress, we had stuff that we were doing in email, we had visual components that we were getting produced, so how do we bring it all together and then keep it inside of the overall marketing plan?
Garrett Moon: Well, for a lot of teams, I think that editorial calendar becomes the marketing plan, right? Really the thing we talk about, and we do, is if you really take the time and focus yourself on the right core topics and the right ideas, and the right things for your audience, all of this stuff falls into place.
We don’t really need the 30-40 page marketing plan, like we used to. We do need a strategy, we need to understand what channels our customers are using, and what’s going to be most effective. We need to understand that, and sure, we can write it down, but we need to put ourselves into a place where we’re not doing a marketing plan that’s going to tell us what we need to do for the next year, right? But we need maybe an editorial calendar and a short strategy that’s going to tell us where to focus on for the next three months so that we can say, “Okay, did this work? And how is the next three months going to work? How are we going to adapt and how are we going to shift?”
I think a couple of those things become these really important framing concepts. Content core is really good, kind of gets you on the right foot, and then you start taking that into the calendar, and now you have your action plan. I love this idea, I think one of the most powerful piece of a calendar is that it separates strategy from action. I think that’s a really important change, or important part of the process, right?
You have to set some time strategy, and then you need to set some time aside to execute it. That doesn’t mean you don’t come back and see and measure and look, and see how it went, and evaluate. You definitely have to do that, and we have a process for that as well, but that calendar gives you the ability to take your strategy, put it on paper, or on a drag and drop interface, and then execute it with a lot of focus and get it out there on time.
It’s that accountability side of making sure you hold to that strategy. For everybody that’s going to vary a little bit. Like, how far you want to plan out, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, 2-3 months, depending on what you’re doing, will vary. But it gives you that solid place to execute and if you’ve spent the right amount of time on strategy and you reflect on it at the right times in the year, it should be a very focused calendar for you.
John Jantsch: What in your opinion should a content team look like today? Now, I know that that’s relative maybe to the size of the organization, but what functions maybe should a team have, even if it’s all being done by two people or something?
Garrett Moon: Yeah. It’s a great question, ’cause I think a lot of times we think of content as, we think of the content, right? Is it audio content? Is it video content? Is it written content? Probably most traditionally you think of the written side of things. So you certainly need writing, but the real thing about it is more and more you’re seeing content teams, like now, they’re owning social, they’re owning 100% of social. They’re owning email, like 100% of the email program with a company is ending up on that team.
Because the content becomes the driver of all of those things, right? Where the content goes, it’s driving the social, it’s driving what we’re talking about on email. So now you have all of these components that you need to do. You’ve got to be writing, you’ve got to have some good social chops, you’ve got to know email. There’s a lot of technical pieces of that, but now you’ve got to figure out how to measure that and analyze it.
You have to have a strategy, and somewhat of a technical side, or at least the ability to understand the data you’re looking at and how to piece things together, but be able to strategize on that. A content team today, it’s a multi discipline team. I mean, it’s not one or two things. It’s five, six, seven different things that they have to be really good at.
John Jantsch: I tell you, where I see a ton of growth is I see a lot of organizations hiring videographers and editing teams, because they’re just capturing so much video now.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, and I mean, we’re doing the same thing around here all the time. The iPhone’s a great companion for that, but eventually you have to standardize it a little bit.
John Jantsch: You did a number of interviews for the book, and I’m not going to ask you who your favorite interview was, but maybe point out a couple of people that you think are doing a great job with this 10x approach, with their content.
Garrett Moon: Yeah. Well, it wasn’t an interview, but one of my favorite examples of just a 10x … One of the things we talk about is just these 10x ideas, and part of that is a 10x idea versus a 10% idea, and this is part of where the whole framework for the book comes from. Really, what we’re after as marketers is not 10% growth per se, right? 10% growth kind of means you did something and it was good, and it probably moved the needle a little bit, but it’s really hard to tell, and if you keep doing it, it might slowly get there.
But really what you’re looking for is these 10x jump-aheads. Like, you need to skip ahead and multiply your results by 10 times, and they’re the holy grail, right? They’re not easy to get to. It’s like, how do you make an ad viral? Well, there’s no guarantees, right? But you’ve got to try and find some of those projects, and one of the ones I talk about is a company called Groove.
I like it ’cause they’re this startup that was doing content marketing, and they found themselves into this exact situation that we were talking about before, where, “Hey, we’re doing content marketing. We have a content marketing blog.” It’s a customer support tool, GrooveHQ is the URL, and I think they had a good number of subscribers, 5000-10,000 email subscribers, or something like that. So, for a small startup, pretty successful.
But the CEO, Alex Turnbull, wrote the team one morning and said, “Hey guys, our blog sucks. We’ve got to do something.” Basically what he was saying is, “This is plugging along and it’s doing okay, but this is not going to get us to jump ahead. As a company, we need to make some big jumps in revenue, in growth, in awareness, if we’re going to be able to get ahead in our marketplace, ’cause there’s a lot of support tools out here. We’ve got to make a difference.”
They took down that entire blog and what they ended up launching was something that started to tell their story. I love this because it’s something only they could do. They provide support software that by and large is going to be purchased by startups like a CoSchedule or something like that, where we provide a software solution to our customers, and we need to provide them with customer support. Pretty simple.
They just started talking about their journey as a startup. They published their numbers, they started talking about the things that worked for them in terms of growth, in terms of fundraising, in terms of how they structured their board. All of these different things just became wide open and visible to their audience, and within the first week, they added 5000, I think it was first eight days, 5000 email subscribers to their list.
They more than doubled their list in about a week, by changing that topic. It’s just this great leapfrog moment for them where they were able to do something that no one else could do, no one else was willing to talk about this stuff, but they were, and allowed them to change the whole conversation, and get out of that rut of doing “regular” content marketing, and doing something completely different.
John Jantsch: So, one of the ideas behind the book is that this was a bit of a retelling of your experience at CoSchedule. So, if I’m not putting words in your mouth. Give us the 50,000 foot view of how you applied 10x marketing to your content at CoSchedule.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I mean, the story, me and my co-founder ran a marketing agency and had a lot of the problems that many marketers do on a day-to-day basis, and thought, “There’s got to be a better way to do it.” We were web developers and software creators, so that’s the direction we went in. But when we launched a tool, we started just like everybody else. No subscribers, no followers, no customers.
We had to go from zero to somewhere very, very quickly, and the number one process I think we always focused on was this concept of 10x versus 10%. Like, it’s just something that even today, as CoSchedule’s over 60 people, it’s still something that we have a regular conversation about.
It was, as a team, in both of our, when it came to developing a product, when it came to doing marketing, we have to figure out how to constantly prioritize our biggest opportunities and make sure they’re getting the attention they deserve. I think it’s a hazard for anybody, I think it can especially become a hazard for marketing teams, because there is a lot on your plate. There’s a lot of people out there telling, “Oh, you have to get on Snapchat. Oh, you have to get on Instagram. You have to do this.”
All of those things become these 10% things that really remove focus from your team, and when you remove focus, you remove the opportunity for those big growth. You may be able to see continued growth, like I’m not saying it’ll go away completely, but you lose the opportunity for those big 10x jumps, punch through on your results.
I’d say that framework was probably one of the biggest things where we just constantly were good at like, “Okay, what are all the projects we’re working on right now? Let’s put ’em on a whiteboard. Let’s grade ’em. How hard are they? Are they a one for really easy, and a three for really hard, and how much time they take? Then, do these things have the opportunity to grow our results by 10 times? Yes or no?”
If they didn’t, these were something that had to come off the board, and we’re just going to say, “You know what?” We talked about video content, video was one of those for us early on. This is something everyone’s saying we should do, it’s gotten popular, this was a couple of years ago. It’s gotten popular, we should probably consider it, but you know what? At the end of the day, it’s really hard for us, because we don’t have an internal video team, and you know what? What we’re really good at is written content, so we need to double down there and we just need to let video go for now, and we’ll come back to it when we have more resources, and we’ve..
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Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results
Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing
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John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Garrett Moon. He is the CEO and Co-Founder at CoSchedule. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, “10x Marketing Formula: Your Blueprint for Creating ‘Competition-Free Content’ That Stands Out and Gets Results.” So Garrett, thanks for joining me.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, thanks John. Thanks for having me on.
John Jantsch: So we have been saying for I don’t know, it seems like a decade, that content is king, and I guess there’s a lot of business owners that are out there still saying, “Is it really?” So, what are we missing?
Garrett Moon: I think that’s kind of been a good summary of some of the things I’ve been seeing going on in the industry, and as I’ve been talking to people at conferences, and just fellow marketers, that for last year or so, that’s the kind of question we’re asking. Is content marketing really driving ROI? Is it really giving our business the value that it needs to be giving?
I feel like in a lot of ways there’s a lot of disappointment and frustration with some of those results and returns. I think about Gartner’s Hype Cycle, and I’m sure it’s something a lot of people are familiar with, but it’s just a way that Gartner maps out how a new piece of technology is adopted.
It’s just this really, when something new comes out, you get some people very excited about it, and it generates a lot of hype, and a lot of talk, and a lot of big ideas, and it drives a lot of adoption very quickly. But what happens once you reach that apex, you have something called the trough of disillusionment, which is just as quickly as it went up, it goes right back down, and people are disappointed with the results that they’re getting from that new piece of technology.
I think with content we’ve hit that a little bit, right? We’ve adopted it, we’ve got the budgets for it, we’ve built the teams for it, but it’s not always giving us the results we want, and that’s the questions that we’re asking right now.
John Jantsch: I guess there’s a couple of things. Before we called it content marketing, I was producing content around the turn of the century, and it got a lot of attention. It drove ROI like crazy, because there just wasn’t that much competition. So, I mean, I think a couple of things are going on. I think two things. First off, we’re just saturated now. I mean, there’s just so much of it, because everybody got the message, but I think the other thing, too, is a lot of marketers just interpreted it as more was better. I think that’s exacerbated the problem.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think one of the things I talk about in the book is something called competition free content, and really what that is is about starting to see, it’s coming to exactly what you’re saying here, where you need to start looking at the industry, not that you’re just producing marketing that goes out and does its job, but your marketing itself is actually competing against other folks’ marketing.
I think in the content world, when you’re maybe in the old advertising days, if you’re doing direct mail or you’re doing TV, it’s really easy to think about that stuff, but when you’re self-publishing, when you’re using content, you forget that that content is in competition with everybody else in your industry. They’re all doing content marketing, too, you know?
It’s not like it used to be, where the only, in your world of competitors, if you’re the one on Facebook, or if you’re the one doing content marketing, no one else is. It was a big improvement. It’s not that way anymore. Now they’re all there already, so you’ve got to do something that differentiates yourself from the crowd for it to actually work.
John Jantsch: I think another thing that I run across a lot is that people have trouble wrapping their heads around the different intent for maybe different kinds of content, that there’s awareness content, and trust building content, and education, and insight, and nurturing, and even referral content.
I think that’s the part that not all of content is created equal or has a specific intention, and that’s a part I think where people really miss the boat on this ROI.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think some of that just comes from we’re publishing content, and that’s the goal, versus really thinking about where in my customer’s journey is this targeted at, and what is the exact call to action? I always think of it like this. Like, if you published a piece of content, and when your reader finishes consuming that content, or listener or whatever it is, and you only could have them do one thing afterwards, what would that one thing be, right?
Like, that I think, that one question can really help clarify that. It’s sort of a way to short circuit what it might be, because they might say, “Well, if I could just get an email address after that content, or as they consume that content, that’d be good enough for me,” right? Like, “I want them to join our audience so we can have communication,” or, “I want them to follow me on some network” or, “I want them to purchase something,” right?
That’s a whole different type of thing, but it can help you focus that content much more quickly.
John Jantsch: I think the thing that the early part of that journey is where I see people really struggle with. A lot of people get, “I want to sell something to somebody” but a lot of times all people know is they have a problem. They have not attached that problem to any solution or any approach at all, and so getting people to write content that articulates that we know the problem in your life seems to be the hardest content, but I think it’s the most effective.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely agree. Absolutely.
John Jantsch: How do you get, when you start thinking about awareness content, that to me many times just has to be about, “Hey, we know your problem,” how do you get people to focus on that? Because a lot of times, that will have absolutely nothing to do with your product or service.
Garrett Moon: For sure. One of the frameworks I like is something we call content core, and it’s just an exercise that we’ve developed, and we did internally in a variety of different formats. We’ve boiled it down to this topic that we call the content core. What it is really about doing is figuring out what are the content topics where there’s this overlap?
On one side, you need a content topic that is going to solve a problem that a customer has, right? I think the word customer to me is very important there. Not that a reader has, not that just some guy or gal searching the internet, but it’s actually a customer. What problems are your customers, the ones that actually end up putting money in the cash register, what problems are they experiencing?
Then, where do those problems overlap with the value that you provide as a business? In terms of how do their problems overlap with your solution? And not your solution in terms of content, exclusively, but actually your solution as a business, or as a service, or an organization, whatever you might be.
Really seeing where those overlap is the key, and now what you have to do is back out and say, “Okay well, how do I help them solve that problem in a way that provides value? We’re not getting away from the traditional ideas of content marketing here. We’re looking to provide the value. In fact, we go so far as CoSchedule is, we’ll actually provide you with a perfectly great solution for that.
One example is we have a feature on our … We make marketing software, and we launched a feature that helps our customers plan marketing campaigns. The problem that they have is, well, a lot of times when they’re planning marketing campaigns that are multifaceted, there’s multiple moving parts, emails and blog posts, and social, and all these different things, they’re spread out across all these different tools.
So, for them, it was really difficult to see, to have single visibility on how this campaign is doing. Is the team producing it? What are the results we’re getting? That single point of visibility was the problem. So, what we did was we actually wrote a series, several different posts that were all focused on that exact problem, right? How to manage marketing projects so you don’t go crazy, right? Like, how to keep everything from your one marketing campaign in one place, and our content actually provided an Excel spreadsheet, I think it was like a Google Doc document that you could use for planning and managing those items.
So, CoSchedule certainly could help them. That’d be one possibility, but we also provided a completely independent, fully serviceable solution that helped ease their pain point. It’s a way where you can meld that problem versus solution, but still provide that real value, and a connection to your brand. The win there is that they’re associating the solution to that problem with your brand versus just providing you traffic and clicks, which is relatively easy to get these days.
John Jantsch: I think what you just outlined there has become the bar to entry, and I think that’s maybe one of the challenges, is that people maybe aren’t willing to go that far.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, and I think that’s true. I think sometimes early days, you settle for those parallel topics that I talk about. The ones that run parallel to your business, and they’re these types of things where your audience is interested in this. For CoSchedule, that might be something like 10 free marketing tips, right? Our 10 free best marketing ideas, just like a list post or something, where it’s relatively generic content, and our audience is certainly interested in it. They like to consume that, they might even share it, but it doesn’t really connect them with the value that we provide as a company. Doesn’t connect them to why we exist.
So, I think it’s sometimes, it’s just making that leap, getting passed that parallel stuff and into the type of content that really can dig in and provide value and results for the business.
John Jantsch: When you plan content, and we can unpack your four phases of planning, execution, publishing, and analysis. We probably should do that, but when you plan content, how do you reconcile the fact that I think content is really what powers just about every channel? I think it powers advertising, it powers email, it powers social, it powers PR. Do you plan this core content or content core, I’m sorry, to be adaptable to all of those channels?
Garrett Moon: That’s a great question. I think it sort of does, and we’ve always done that exercise on more of a creating content for our blog, right? Is a primary source of where everything’s beginning. But I think inevitability it all bleeds over. There’s a lot of times where we’re working on lists and ideas for topics for our blog or for eBooks or something like that, and it’ll start to bleed over into some of our paid efforts. Those ideas will start to carry over and we’ll start building landing pages and paid campaigns.
It definitely bleeds over into how we do email, so I think so much of that is driven by the core content pieces that you’re creating anyhow, that it just ends up bleeding over rather than having to be something that you focus on doing. I think if you really find good content core topics, I think as a marketing team, it will just naturally focus you on the right stuff, and that will carry over.
John Jantsch: Yeah, I have been saying for a couple of years that I think content really is the voice of strategy, so I think that’s a good way to encapsulate that.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I like that.
John Jantsch: So let’s talk editorial calendars then. First off, I’m going to ask you if you think just about everybody needs one, but then also, how do people manage the fact that, really when it used to just be an offline spreadsheet even, maybe is how people did it originally, but then we started bringing in all of these online places. We had something in WordPress, we had stuff that we were doing in email, we had visual components that we were getting produced, so how do we bring it all together and then keep it inside of the overall marketing plan?
Garrett Moon: Well, for a lot of teams, I think that editorial calendar becomes the marketing plan, right? Really the thing we talk about, and we do, is if you really take the time and focus yourself on the right core topics and the right ideas, and the right things for your audience, all of this stuff falls into place.
We don’t really need the 30-40 page marketing plan, like we used to. We do need a strategy, we need to understand what channels our customers are using, and what’s going to be most effective. We need to understand that, and sure, we can write it down, but we need to put ourselves into a place where we’re not doing a marketing plan that’s going to tell us what we need to do for the next year, right? But we need maybe an editorial calendar and a short strategy that’s going to tell us where to focus on for the next three months so that we can say, “Okay, did this work? And how is the next three months going to work? How are we going to adapt and how are we going to shift?”
I think a couple of those things become these really important framing concepts. Content core is really good, kind of gets you on the right foot, and then you start taking that into the calendar, and now you have your action plan. I love this idea, I think one of the most powerful piece of a calendar is that it separates strategy from action. I think that’s a really important change, or important part of the process, right?
You have to set some time strategy, and then you need to set some time aside to execute it. That doesn’t mean you don’t come back and see and measure and look, and see how it went, and evaluate. You definitely have to do that, and we have a process for that as well, but that calendar gives you the ability to take your strategy, put it on paper, or on a drag and drop interface, and then execute it with a lot of focus and get it out there on time.
It’s that accountability side of making sure you hold to that strategy. For everybody that’s going to vary a little bit. Like, how far you want to plan out, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, 2-3 months, depending on what you’re doing, will vary. But it gives you that solid place to execute and if you’ve spent the right amount of time on strategy and you reflect on it at the right times in the year, it should be a very focused calendar for you.
John Jantsch: What in your opinion should a content team look like today? Now, I know that that’s relative maybe to the size of the organization, but what functions maybe should a team have, even if it’s all being done by two people or something?
Garrett Moon: Yeah. It’s a great question, ’cause I think a lot of times we think of content as, we think of the content, right? Is it audio content? Is it video content? Is it written content? Probably most traditionally you think of the written side of things. So you certainly need writing, but the real thing about it is more and more you’re seeing content teams, like now, they’re owning social, they’re owning 100% of social. They’re owning email, like 100% of the email program with a company is ending up on that team.
Because the content becomes the driver of all of those things, right? Where the content goes, it’s driving the social, it’s driving what we’re talking about on email. So now you have all of these components that you need to do. You’ve got to be writing, you’ve got to have some good social chops, you’ve got to know email. There’s a lot of technical pieces of that, but now you’ve got to figure out how to measure that and analyze it.
You have to have a strategy, and somewhat of a technical side, or at least the ability to understand the data you’re looking at and how to piece things together, but be able to strategize on that. A content team today, it’s a multi discipline team. I mean, it’s not one or two things. It’s five, six, seven different things that they have to be really good at.
John Jantsch: I tell you, where I see a ton of growth is I see a lot of organizations hiring videographers and editing teams, because they’re just capturing so much video now.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, and I mean, we’re doing the same thing around here all the time. The iPhone’s a great companion for that, but eventually you have to standardize it a little bit.
John Jantsch: You did a number of interviews for the book, and I’m not going to ask you who your favorite interview was, but maybe point out a couple of people that you think are doing a great job with this 10x approach, with their content.
Garrett Moon: Yeah. Well, it wasn’t an interview, but one of my favorite examples of just a 10x … One of the things we talk about is just these 10x ideas, and part of that is a 10x idea versus a 10% idea, and this is part of where the whole framework for the book comes from. Really, what we’re after as marketers is not 10% growth per se, right? 10% growth kind of means you did something and it was good, and it probably moved the needle a little bit, but it’s really hard to tell, and if you keep doing it, it might slowly get there.
But really what you’re looking for is these 10x jump-aheads. Like, you need to skip ahead and multiply your results by 10 times, and they’re the holy grail, right? They’re not easy to get to. It’s like, how do you make an ad viral? Well, there’s no guarantees, right? But you’ve got to try and find some of those projects, and one of the ones I talk about is a company called Groove.
I like it ’cause they’re this startup that was doing content marketing, and they found themselves into this exact situation that we were talking about before, where, “Hey, we’re doing content marketing. We have a content marketing blog.” It’s a customer support tool, GrooveHQ is the URL, and I think they had a good number of subscribers, 5000-10,000 email subscribers, or something like that. So, for a small startup, pretty successful.
But the CEO, Alex Turnbull, wrote the team one morning and said, “Hey guys, our blog sucks. We’ve got to do something.” Basically what he was saying is, “This is plugging along and it’s doing okay, but this is not going to get us to jump ahead. As a company, we need to make some big jumps in revenue, in growth, in awareness, if we’re going to be able to get ahead in our marketplace, ’cause there’s a lot of support tools out here. We’ve got to make a difference.”
They took down that entire blog and what they ended up launching was something that started to tell their story. I love this because it’s something only they could do. They provide support software that by and large is going to be purchased by startups like a CoSchedule or something like that, where we provide a software solution to our customers, and we need to provide them with customer support. Pretty simple.
They just started talking about their journey as a startup. They published their numbers, they started talking about the things that worked for them in terms of growth, in terms of fundraising, in terms of how they structured their board. All of these different things just became wide open and visible to their audience, and within the first week, they added 5000, I think it was first eight days, 5000 email subscribers to their list.
They more than doubled their list in about a week, by changing that topic. It’s just this great leapfrog moment for them where they were able to do something that no one else could do, no one else was willing to talk about this stuff, but they were, and allowed them to change the whole conversation, and get out of that rut of doing “regular” content marketing, and doing something completely different.
John Jantsch: So, one of the ideas behind the book is that this was a bit of a retelling of your experience at CoSchedule. So, if I’m not putting words in your mouth. Give us the 50,000 foot view of how you applied 10x marketing to your content at CoSchedule.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I mean, the story, me and my co-founder ran a marketing agency and had a lot of the problems that many marketers do on a day-to-day basis, and thought, “There’s got to be a better way to do it.” We were web developers and software creators, so that’s the direction we went in. But when we launched a tool, we started just like everybody else. No subscribers, no followers, no customers.
We had to go from zero to somewhere very, very quickly, and the number one process I think we always focused on was this concept of 10x versus 10%. Like, it’s just something that even today, as CoSchedule’s over 60 people, it’s still something that we have a regular conversation about.
It was, as a team, in both of our, when it came to developing a product, when it came to doing marketing, we have to figure out how to constantly prioritize our biggest opportunities and make sure they’re getting the attention they deserve. I think it’s a hazard for anybody, I think it can especially become a hazard for marketing teams, because there is a lot on your plate. There’s a lot of people out there telling, “Oh, you have to get on Snapchat. Oh, you have to get on Instagram. You have to do this.”
All of those things become these 10% things that really remove focus from your team, and when you remove focus, you remove the opportunity for those big growth. You may be able to see continued growth, like I’m not saying it’ll go away completely, but you lose the opportunity for those big 10x jumps, punch through on your results.
I’d say that framework was probably one of the biggest things where we just constantly were good at like, “Okay, what are all the projects we’re working on right now? Let’s put ’em on a whiteboard. Let’s grade ’em. How hard are they? Are they a one for really easy, and a three for really hard, and how much time they take? Then, do these things have the opportunity to grow our results by 10 times? Yes or no?”
If they didn’t, these were something that had to come off the board, and we’re just going to say, “You know what?” We talked about video content, video was one of those for us early on. This is something everyone’s saying we should do, it’s gotten popular, this was a couple of years ago. It’s gotten popular, we should probably consider it, but you know what? At the end of the day, it’s really hard for us, because we don’t have an internal video team, and you know what? What we’re really good at is written content, so we need to double down there and we just need to let video go for now, and we’ll come back to it when we have more resources, and we’ve..
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Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results
Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results
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John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Garrett Moon. He is the CEO and Co-Founder at CoSchedule. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, “10x Marketing Formula: Your Blueprint for Creating ‘Competition-Free Content’ That Stands Out and Gets Results.” So Garrett, thanks for joining me.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, thanks John. Thanks for having me on.
John Jantsch: So we have been saying for I don’t know, it seems like a decade, that content is king, and I guess there’s a lot of business owners that are out there still saying, “Is it really?” So, what are we missing?
Garrett Moon: I think that’s kind of been a good summary of some of the things I’ve been seeing going on in the industry, and as I’ve been talking to people at conferences, and just fellow marketers, that for last year or so, that’s the kind of question we’re asking. Is content marketing really driving ROI? Is it really giving our business the value that it needs to be giving?
I feel like in a lot of ways there’s a lot of disappointment and frustration with some of those results and returns. I think about Gartner’s Hype Cycle, and I’m sure it’s something a lot of people are familiar with, but it’s just a way that Gartner maps out how a new piece of technology is adopted.
It’s just this really, when something new comes out, you get some people very excited about it, and it generates a lot of hype, and a lot of talk, and a lot of big ideas, and it drives a lot of adoption very quickly. But what happens once you reach that apex, you have something called the trough of disillusionment, which is just as quickly as it went up, it goes right back down, and people are disappointed with the results that they’re getting from that new piece of technology.
I think with content we’ve hit that a little bit, right? We’ve adopted it, we’ve got the budgets for it, we’ve built the teams for it, but it’s not always giving us the results we want, and that’s the questions that we’re asking right now.
John Jantsch: I guess there’s a couple of things. Before we called it content marketing, I was producing content around the turn of the century, and it got a lot of attention. It drove ROI like crazy, because there just wasn’t that much competition. So, I mean, I think a couple of things are going on. I think two things. First off, we’re just saturated now. I mean, there’s just so much of it, because everybody got the message, but I think the other thing, too, is a lot of marketers just interpreted it as more was better. I think that’s exacerbated the problem.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think one of the things I talk about in the book is something called competition free content, and really what that is is about starting to see, it’s coming to exactly what you’re saying here, where you need to start looking at the industry, not that you’re just producing marketing that goes out and does its job, but your marketing itself is actually competing against other folks’ marketing.
I think in the content world, when you’re maybe in the old advertising days, if you’re doing direct mail or you’re doing TV, it’s really easy to think about that stuff, but when you’re self-publishing, when you’re using content, you forget that that content is in competition with everybody else in your industry. They’re all doing content marketing, too, you know?
It’s not like it used to be, where the only, in your world of competitors, if you’re the one on Facebook, or if you’re the one doing content marketing, no one else is. It was a big improvement. It’s not that way anymore. Now they’re all there already, so you’ve got to do something that differentiates yourself from the crowd for it to actually work.
John Jantsch: I think another thing that I run across a lot is that people have trouble wrapping their heads around the different intent for maybe different kinds of content, that there’s awareness content, and trust building content, and education, and insight, and nurturing, and even referral content.
I think that’s the part that not all of content is created equal or has a specific intention, and that’s a part I think where people really miss the boat on this ROI.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think some of that just comes from we’re publishing content, and that’s the goal, versus really thinking about where in my customer’s journey is this targeted at, and what is the exact call to action? I always think of it like this. Like, if you published a piece of content, and when your reader finishes consuming that content, or listener or whatever it is, and you only could have them do one thing afterwards, what would that one thing be, right?
Like, that I think, that one question can really help clarify that. It’s sort of a way to short circuit what it might be, because they might say, “Well, if I could just get an email address after that content, or as they consume that content, that’d be good enough for me,” right? Like, “I want them to join our audience so we can have communication,” or, “I want them to follow me on some network” or, “I want them to purchase something,” right?
That’s a whole different type of thing, but it can help you focus that content much more quickly.
John Jantsch: I think the thing that the early part of that journey is where I see people really struggle with. A lot of people get, “I want to sell something to somebody” but a lot of times all people know is they have a problem. They have not attached that problem to any solution or any approach at all, and so getting people to write content that articulates that we know the problem in your life seems to be the hardest content, but I think it’s the most effective.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely agree. Absolutely.
John Jantsch: How do you get, when you start thinking about awareness content, that to me many times just has to be about, “Hey, we know your problem,” how do you get people to focus on that? Because a lot of times, that will have absolutely nothing to do with your product or service.
Garrett Moon: For sure. One of the frameworks I like is something we call content core, and it’s just an exercise that we’ve developed, and we did internally in a variety of different formats. We’ve boiled it down to this topic that we call the content core. What it is really about doing is figuring out what are the content topics where there’s this overlap?
On one side, you need a content topic that is going to solve a problem that a customer has, right? I think the word customer to me is very important there. Not that a reader has, not that just some guy or gal searching the internet, but it’s actually a customer. What problems are your customers, the ones that actually end up putting money in the cash register, what problems are they experiencing?
Then, where do those problems overlap with the value that you provide as a business? In terms of how do their problems overlap with your solution? And not your solution in terms of content, exclusively, but actually your solution as a business, or as a service, or an organization, whatever you might be.
Really seeing where those overlap is the key, and now what you have to do is back out and say, “Okay well, how do I help them solve that problem in a way that provides value? We’re not getting away from the traditional ideas of content marketing here. We’re looking to provide the value. In fact, we go so far as CoSchedule is, we’ll actually provide you with a perfectly great solution for that.
One example is we have a feature on our … We make marketing software, and we launched a feature that helps our customers plan marketing campaigns. The problem that they have is, well, a lot of times when they’re planning marketing campaigns that are multifaceted, there’s multiple moving parts, emails and blog posts, and social, and all these different things, they’re spread out across all these different tools.
So, for them, it was really difficult to see, to have single visibility on how this campaign is doing. Is the team producing it? What are the results we’re getting? That single point of visibility was the problem. So, what we did was we actually wrote a series, several different posts that were all focused on that exact problem, right? How to manage marketing projects so you don’t go crazy, right? Like, how to keep everything from your one marketing campaign in one place, and our content actually provided an Excel spreadsheet, I think it was like a Google Doc document that you could use for planning and managing those items.
So, CoSchedule certainly could help them. That’d be one possibility, but we also provided a completely independent, fully serviceable solution that helped ease their pain point. It’s a way where you can meld that problem versus solution, but still provide that real value, and a connection to your brand. The win there is that they’re associating the solution to that problem with your brand versus just providing you traffic and clicks, which is relatively easy to get these days.
John Jantsch: I think what you just outlined there has become the bar to entry, and I think that’s maybe one of the challenges, is that people maybe aren’t willing to go that far.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, and I think that’s true. I think sometimes early days, you settle for those parallel topics that I talk about. The ones that run parallel to your business, and they’re these types of things where your audience is interested in this. For CoSchedule, that might be something like 10 free marketing tips, right? Our 10 free best marketing ideas, just like a list post or something, where it’s relatively generic content, and our audience is certainly interested in it. They like to consume that, they might even share it, but it doesn’t really connect them with the value that we provide as a company. Doesn’t connect them to why we exist.
So, I think it’s sometimes, it’s just making that leap, getting passed that parallel stuff and into the type of content that really can dig in and provide value and results for the business.
John Jantsch: When you plan content, and we can unpack your four phases of planning, execution, publishing, and analysis. We probably should do that, but when you plan content, how do you reconcile the fact that I think content is really what powers just about every channel? I think it powers advertising, it powers email, it powers social, it powers PR. Do you plan this core content or content core, I’m sorry, to be adaptable to all of those channels?
Garrett Moon: That’s a great question. I think it sort of does, and we’ve always done that exercise on more of a creating content for our blog, right? Is a primary source of where everything’s beginning. But I think inevitability it all bleeds over. There’s a lot of times where we’re working on lists and ideas for topics for our blog or for eBooks or something like that, and it’ll start to bleed over into some of our paid efforts. Those ideas will start to carry over and we’ll start building landing pages and paid campaigns.
It definitely bleeds over into how we do email, so I think so much of that is driven by the core content pieces that you’re creating anyhow, that it just ends up bleeding over rather than having to be something that you focus on doing. I think if you really find good content core topics, I think as a marketing team, it will just naturally focus you on the right stuff, and that will carry over.
John Jantsch: Yeah, I have been saying for a couple of years that I think content really is the voice of strategy, so I think that’s a good way to encapsulate that.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I like that.
John Jantsch: So let’s talk editorial calendars then. First off, I’m going to ask you if you think just about everybody needs one, but then also, how do people manage the fact that, really when it used to just be an offline spreadsheet even, maybe is how people did it originally, but then we started bringing in all of these online places. We had something in WordPress, we had stuff that we were doing in email, we had visual components that we were getting produced, so how do we bring it all together and then keep it inside of the overall marketing plan?
Garrett Moon: Well, for a lot of teams, I think that editorial calendar becomes the marketing plan, right? Really the thing we talk about, and we do, is if you really take the time and focus yourself on the right core topics and the right ideas, and the right things for your audience, all of this stuff falls into place.
We don’t really need the 30-40 page marketing plan, like we used to. We do need a strategy, we need to understand what channels our customers are using, and what’s going to be most effective. We need to understand that, and sure, we can write it down, but we need to put ourselves into a place where we’re not doing a marketing plan that’s going to tell us what we need to do for the next year, right? But we need maybe an editorial calendar and a short strategy that’s going to tell us where to focus on for the next three months so that we can say, “Okay, did this work? And how is the next three months going to work? How are we going to adapt and how are we going to shift?”
I think a couple of those things become these really important framing concepts. Content core is really good, kind of gets you on the right foot, and then you start taking that into the calendar, and now you have your action plan. I love this idea, I think one of the most powerful piece of a calendar is that it separates strategy from action. I think that’s a really important change, or important part of the process, right?
You have to set some time strategy, and then you need to set some time aside to execute it. That doesn’t mean you don’t come back and see and measure and look, and see how it went, and evaluate. You definitely have to do that, and we have a process for that as well, but that calendar gives you the ability to take your strategy, put it on paper, or on a drag and drop interface, and then execute it with a lot of focus and get it out there on time.
It’s that accountability side of making sure you hold to that strategy. For everybody that’s going to vary a little bit. Like, how far you want to plan out, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, 2-3 months, depending on what you’re doing, will vary. But it gives you that solid place to execute and if you’ve spent the right amount of time on strategy and you reflect on it at the right times in the year, it should be a very focused calendar for you.
John Jantsch: What in your opinion should a content team look like today? Now, I know that that’s relative maybe to the size of the organization, but what functions maybe should a team have, even if it’s all being done by two people or something?
Garrett Moon: Yeah. It’s a great question, ’cause I think a lot of times we think of content as, we think of the content, right? Is it audio content? Is it video content? Is it written content? Probably most traditionally you think of the written side of things. So you certainly need writing, but the real thing about it is more and more you’re seeing content teams, like now, they’re owning social, they’re owning 100% of social. They’re owning email, like 100% of the email program with a company is ending up on that team.
Because the content becomes the driver of all of those things, right? Where the content goes, it’s driving the social, it’s driving what we’re talking about on email. So now you have all of these components that you need to do. You’ve got to be writing, you’ve got to have some good social chops, you’ve got to know email. There’s a lot of technical pieces of that, but now you’ve got to figure out how to measure that and analyze it.
You have to have a strategy, and somewhat of a technical side, or at least the ability to understand the data you’re looking at and how to piece things together, but be able to strategize on that. A content team today, it’s a multi discipline team. I mean, it’s not one or two things. It’s five, six, seven different things that they have to be really good at.
John Jantsch: I tell you, where I see a ton of growth is I see a lot of organizations hiring videographers and editing teams, because they’re just capturing so much video now.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, and I mean, we’re doing the same thing around here all the time. The iPhone’s a great companion for that, but eventually you have to standardize it a little bit.
John Jantsch: You did a number of interviews for the book, and I’m not going to ask you who your favorite interview was, but maybe point out a couple of people that you think are doing a great job with this 10x approach, with their content.
Garrett Moon: Yeah. Well, it wasn’t an interview, but one of my favorite examples of just a 10x … One of the things we talk about is just these 10x ideas, and part of that is a 10x idea versus a 10% idea, and this is part of where the whole framework for the book comes from. Really, what we’re after as marketers is not 10% growth per se, right? 10% growth kind of means you did something and it was good, and it probably moved the needle a little bit, but it’s really hard to tell, and if you keep doing it, it might slowly get there.
But really what you’re looking for is these 10x jump-aheads. Like, you need to skip ahead and multiply your results by 10 times, and they’re the holy grail, right? They’re not easy to get to. It’s like, how do you make an ad viral? Well, there’s no guarantees, right? But you’ve got to try and find some of those projects, and one of the ones I talk about is a company called Groove.
I like it ’cause they’re this startup that was doing content marketing, and they found themselves into this exact situation that we were talking about before, where, “Hey, we’re doing content marketing. We have a content marketing blog.” It’s a customer support tool, GrooveHQ is the URL, and I think they had a good number of subscribers, 5000-10,000 email subscribers, or something like that. So, for a small startup, pretty successful.
But the CEO, Alex Turnbull, wrote the team one morning and said, “Hey guys, our blog sucks. We’ve got to do something.” Basically what he was saying is, “This is plugging along and it’s doing okay, but this is not going to get us to jump ahead. As a company, we need to make some big jumps in revenue, in growth, in awareness, if we’re going to be able to get ahead in our marketplace, ’cause there’s a lot of support tools out here. We’ve got to make a difference.”
They took down that entire blog and what they ended up launching was something that started to tell their story. I love this because it’s something only they could do. They provide support software that by and large is going to be purchased by startups like a CoSchedule or something like that, where we provide a software solution to our customers, and we need to provide them with customer support. Pretty simple.
They just started talking about their journey as a startup. They published their numbers, they started talking about the things that worked for them in terms of growth, in terms of fundraising, in terms of how they structured their board. All of these different things just became wide open and visible to their audience, and within the first week, they added 5000, I think it was first eight days, 5000 email subscribers to their list.
They more than doubled their list in about a week, by changing that topic. It’s just this great leapfrog moment for them where they were able to do something that no one else could do, no one else was willing to talk about this stuff, but they were, and allowed them to change the whole conversation, and get out of that rut of doing “regular” content marketing, and doing something completely different.
John Jantsch: So, one of the ideas behind the book is that this was a bit of a retelling of your experience at CoSchedule. So, if I’m not putting words in your mouth. Give us the 50,000 foot view of how you applied 10x marketing to your content at CoSchedule.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I mean, the story, me and my co-founder ran a marketing agency and had a lot of the problems that many marketers do on a day-to-day basis, and thought, “There’s got to be a better way to do it.” We were web developers and software creators, so that’s the direction we went in. But when we launched a tool, we started just like everybody else. No subscribers, no followers, no customers.
We had to go from zero to somewhere very, very quickly, and the number one process I think we always focused on was this concept of 10x versus 10%. Like, it’s just something that even today, as CoSchedule’s over 60 people, it’s still something that we have a regular conversation about.
It was, as a team, in both of our, when it came to developing a product, when it came to doing marketing, we have to figure out how to constantly prioritize our biggest opportunities and make sure they’re getting the attention they deserve. I think it’s a hazard for anybody, I think it can especially become a hazard for marketing teams, because there is a lot on your plate. There’s a lot of people out there telling, “Oh, you have to get on Snapchat. Oh, you have to get on Instagram. You have to do this.”
All of those things become these 10% things that really remove focus from your team, and when you remove focus, you remove the opportunity for those big growth. You may be able to see continued growth, like I’m not saying it’ll go away completely, but you lose the opportunity for those big 10x jumps, punch through on your results.
I’d say that framework was probably one of the biggest things where we just constantly were good at like, “Okay, what are all the projects we’re working on right now? Let’s put ’em on a whiteboard. Let’s grade ’em. How hard are they? Are they a one for really easy, and a three for really hard, and how much time they take? Then, do these things have the opportunity to grow our results by 10 times? Yes or no?”
If they didn’t, these were something that had to come off the board, and we’re just going to say, “You know what?” We talked about video content, video was one of those for us early on. This is something everyone’s saying we should do, it’s gotten popular, this was a couple of years ago. It’s gotten popular, we should probably consider it, but you know what? At the end of the day, it’s really hard for us, because we don’t have an internal video team, and you know what? What we’re really good at is written content, so we need to double down there and we just need to let video go for now, and we’ll come back to it when we have more resources, and we’ve..
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John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Garrett Moon. He is the CEO and Co-Founder at CoSchedule. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, “10x Marketing Formula: Your Blueprint for Creating ‘Competition-Free Content’ That Stands Out and Gets Results.” So Garrett, thanks for joining me.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, thanks John. Thanks for having me on.
John Jantsch: So we have been saying for I don’t know, it seems like a decade, that content is king, and I guess there’s a lot of business owners that are out there still saying, “Is it really?” So, what are we missing?
Garrett Moon: I think that’s kind of been a good summary of some of the things I’ve been seeing going on in the industry, and as I’ve been talking to people at conferences, and just fellow marketers, that for last year or so, that’s the kind of question we’re asking. Is content marketing really driving ROI? Is it really giving our business the value that it needs to be giving?
I feel like in a lot of ways there’s a lot of disappointment and frustration with some of those results and returns. I think about Gartner’s Hype Cycle, and I’m sure it’s something a lot of people are familiar with, but it’s just a way that Gartner maps out how a new piece of technology is adopted.
It’s just this really, when something new comes out, you get some people very excited about it, and it generates a lot of hype, and a lot of talk, and a lot of big ideas, and it drives a lot of adoption very quickly. But what happens once you reach that apex, you have something called the trough of disillusionment, which is just as quickly as it went up, it goes right back down, and people are disappointed with the results that they’re getting from that new piece of technology.
I think with content we’ve hit that a little bit, right? We’ve adopted it, we’ve got the budgets for it, we’ve built the teams for it, but it’s not always giving us the results we want, and that’s the questions that we’re asking right now.
John Jantsch: I guess there’s a couple of things. Before we called it content marketing, I was producing content around the turn of the century, and it got a lot of attention. It drove ROI like crazy, because there just wasn’t that much competition. So, I mean, I think a couple of things are going on. I think two things. First off, we’re just saturated now. I mean, there’s just so much of it, because everybody got the message, but I think the other thing, too, is a lot of marketers just interpreted it as more was better. I think that’s exacerbated the problem.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think one of the things I talk about in the book is something called competition free content, and really what that is is about starting to see, it’s coming to exactly what you’re saying here, where you need to start looking at the industry, not that you’re just producing marketing that goes out and does its job, but your marketing itself is actually competing against other folks’ marketing.
I think in the content world, when you’re maybe in the old advertising days, if you’re doing direct mail or you’re doing TV, it’s really easy to think about that stuff, but when you’re self-publishing, when you’re using content, you forget that that content is in competition with everybody else in your industry. They’re all doing content marketing, too, you know?
It’s not like it used to be, where the only, in your world of competitors, if you’re the one on Facebook, or if you’re the one doing content marketing, no one else is. It was a big improvement. It’s not that way anymore. Now they’re all there already, so you’ve got to do something that differentiates yourself from the crowd for it to actually work.
John Jantsch: I think another thing that I run across a lot is that people have trouble wrapping their heads around the different intent for maybe different kinds of content, that there’s awareness content, and trust building content, and education, and insight, and nurturing, and even referral content.
I think that’s the part that not all of content is created equal or has a specific intention, and that’s a part I think where people really miss the boat on this ROI.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think some of that just comes from we’re publishing content, and that’s the goal, versus really thinking about where in my customer’s journey is this targeted at, and what is the exact call to action? I always think of it like this. Like, if you published a piece of content, and when your reader finishes consuming that content, or listener or whatever it is, and you only could have them do one thing afterwards, what would that one thing be, right?
Like, that I think, that one question can really help clarify that. It’s sort of a way to short circuit what it might be, because they might say, “Well, if I could just get an email address after that content, or as they consume that content, that’d be good enough for me,” right? Like, “I want them to join our audience so we can have communication,” or, “I want them to follow me on some network” or, “I want them to purchase something,” right?
That’s a whole different type of thing, but it can help you focus that content much more quickly.
John Jantsch: I think the thing that the early part of that journey is where I see people really struggle with. A lot of people get, “I want to sell something to somebody” but a lot of times all people know is they have a problem. They have not attached that problem to any solution or any approach at all, and so getting people to write content that articulates that we know the problem in your life seems to be the hardest content, but I think it’s the most effective.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely agree. Absolutely.
John Jantsch: How do you get, when you start thinking about awareness content, that to me many times just has to be about, “Hey, we know your problem,” how do you get people to focus on that? Because a lot of times, that will have absolutely nothing to do with your product or service.
Garrett Moon: For sure. One of the frameworks I like is something we call content core, and it’s just an exercise that we’ve developed, and we did internally in a variety of different formats. We’ve boiled it down to this topic that we call the content core. What it is really about doing is figuring out what are the content topics where there’s this overlap?
On one side, you need a content topic that is going to solve a problem that a customer has, right? I think the word customer to me is very important there. Not that a reader has, not that just some guy or gal searching the internet, but it’s actually a customer. What problems are your customers, the ones that actually end up putting money in the cash register, what problems are they experiencing?
Then, where do those problems overlap with the value that you provide as a business? In terms of how do their problems overlap with your solution? And not your solution in terms of content, exclusively, but actually your solution as a business, or as a service, or an organization, whatever you might be.
Really seeing where those overlap is the key, and now what you have to do is back out and say, “Okay well, how do I help them solve that problem in a way that provides value? We’re not getting away from the traditional ideas of content marketing here. We’re looking to provide the value. In fact, we go so far as CoSchedule is, we’ll actually provide you with a perfectly great solution for that.
One example is we have a feature on our … We make marketing software, and we launched a feature that helps our customers plan marketing campaigns. The problem that they have is, well, a lot of times when they’re planning marketing campaigns that are multifaceted, there’s multiple moving parts, emails and blog posts, and social, and all these different things, they’re spread out across all these different tools.
So, for them, it was really difficult to see, to have single visibility on how this campaign is doing. Is the team producing it? What are the results we’re getting? That single point of visibility was the problem. So, what we did was we actually wrote a series, several different posts that were all focused on that exact problem, right? How to manage marketing projects so you don’t go crazy, right? Like, how to keep everything from your one marketing campaign in one place, and our content actually provided an Excel spreadsheet, I think it was like a Google Doc document that you could use for planning and managing those items.
So, CoSchedule certainly could help them. That’d be one possibility, but we also provided a completely independent, fully serviceable solution that helped ease their pain point. It’s a way where you can meld that problem versus solution, but still provide that real value, and a connection to your brand. The win there is that they’re associating the solution to that problem with your brand versus just providing you traffic and clicks, which is relatively easy to get these days.
John Jantsch: I think what you just outlined there has become the bar to entry, and I think that’s maybe one of the challenges, is that people maybe aren’t willing to go that far.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, and I think that’s true. I think sometimes early days, you settle for those parallel topics that I talk about. The ones that run parallel to your business, and they’re these types of things where your audience is interested in this. For CoSchedule, that might be something like 10 free marketing tips, right? Our 10 free best marketing ideas, just like a list post or something, where it’s relatively generic content, and our audience is certainly interested in it. They like to consume that, they might even share it, but it doesn’t really connect them with the value that we provide as a company. Doesn’t connect them to why we exist.
So, I think it’s sometimes, it’s just making that leap, getting passed that parallel stuff and into the type of content that really can dig in and provide value and results for the business.
John Jantsch: When you plan content, and we can unpack your four phases of planning, execution, publishing, and analysis. We probably should do that, but when you plan content, how do you reconcile the fact that I think content is really what powers just about every channel? I think it powers advertising, it powers email, it powers social, it powers PR. Do you plan this core content or content core, I’m sorry, to be adaptable to all of those channels?
Garrett Moon: That’s a great question. I think it sort of does, and we’ve always done that exercise on more of a creating content for our blog, right? Is a primary source of where everything’s beginning. But I think inevitability it all bleeds over. There’s a lot of times where we’re working on lists and ideas for topics for our blog or for eBooks or something like that, and it’ll start to bleed over into some of our paid efforts. Those ideas will start to carry over and we’ll start building landing pages and paid campaigns.
It definitely bleeds over into how we do email, so I think so much of that is driven by the core content pieces that you’re creating anyhow, that it just ends up bleeding over rather than having to be something that you focus on doing. I think if you really find good content core topics, I think as a marketing team, it will just naturally focus you on the right stuff, and that will carry over.
John Jantsch: Yeah, I have been saying for a couple of years that I think content really is the voice of strategy, so I think that’s a good way to encapsulate that.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I like that.
John Jantsch: So let’s talk editorial calendars then. First off, I’m going to ask you if you think just about everybody needs one, but then also, how do people manage the fact that, really when it used to just be an offline spreadsheet even, maybe is how people did it originally, but then we started bringing in all of these online places. We had something in WordPress, we had stuff that we were doing in email, we had visual components that we were getting produced, so how do we bring it all together and then keep it inside of the overall marketing plan?
Garrett Moon: Well, for a lot of teams, I think that editorial calendar becomes the marketing plan, right? Really the thing we talk about, and we do, is if you really take the time and focus yourself on the right core topics and the right ideas, and the right things for your audience, all of this stuff falls into place.
We don’t really need the 30-40 page marketing plan, like we used to. We do need a strategy, we need to understand what channels our customers are using, and what’s going to be most effective. We need to understand that, and sure, we can write it down, but we need to put ourselves into a place where we’re not doing a marketing plan that’s going to tell us what we need to do for the next year, right? But we need maybe an editorial calendar and a short strategy that’s going to tell us where to focus on for the next three months so that we can say, “Okay, did this work? And how is the next three months going to work? How are we going to adapt and how are we going to shift?”
I think a couple of those things become these really important framing concepts. Content core is really good, kind of gets you on the right foot, and then you start taking that into the calendar, and now you have your action plan. I love this idea, I think one of the most powerful piece of a calendar is that it separates strategy from action. I think that’s a really important change, or important part of the process, right?
You have to set some time strategy, and then you need to set some time aside to execute it. That doesn’t mean you don’t come back and see and measure and look, and see how it went, and evaluate. You definitely have to do that, and we have a process for that as well, but that calendar gives you the ability to take your strategy, put it on paper, or on a drag and drop interface, and then execute it with a lot of focus and get it out there on time.
It’s that accountability side of making sure you hold to that strategy. For everybody that’s going to vary a little bit. Like, how far you want to plan out, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, 2-3 months, depending on what you’re doing, will vary. But it gives you that solid place to execute and if you’ve spent the right amount of time on strategy and you reflect on it at the right times in the year, it should be a very focused calendar for you.
John Jantsch: What in your opinion should a content team look like today? Now, I know that that’s relative maybe to the size of the organization, but what functions maybe should a team have, even if it’s all being done by two people or something?
Garrett Moon: Yeah. It’s a great question, ’cause I think a lot of times we think of content as, we think of the content, right? Is it audio content? Is it video content? Is it written content? Probably most traditionally you think of the written side of things. So you certainly need writing, but the real thing about it is more and more you’re seeing content teams, like now, they’re owning social, they’re owning 100% of social. They’re owning email, like 100% of the email program with a company is ending up on that team.
Because the content becomes the driver of all of those things, right? Where the content goes, it’s driving the social, it’s driving what we’re talking about on email. So now you have all of these components that you need to do. You’ve got to be writing, you’ve got to have some good social chops, you’ve got to know email. There’s a lot of technical pieces of that, but now you’ve got to figure out how to measure that and analyze it.
You have to have a strategy, and somewhat of a technical side, or at least the ability to understand the data you’re looking at and how to piece things together, but be able to strategize on that. A content team today, it’s a multi discipline team. I mean, it’s not one or two things. It’s five, six, seven different things that they have to be really good at.
John Jantsch: I tell you, where I see a ton of growth is I see a lot of organizations hiring videographers and editing teams, because they’re just capturing so much video now.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, and I mean, we’re doing the same thing around here all the time. The iPhone’s a great companion for that, but eventually you have to standardize it a little bit.
John Jantsch: You did a number of interviews for the book, and I’m not going to ask you who your favorite interview was, but maybe point out a couple of people that you think are doing a great job with this 10x approach, with their content.
Garrett Moon: Yeah. Well, it wasn’t an interview, but one of my favorite examples of just a 10x … One of the things we talk about is just these 10x ideas, and part of that is a 10x idea versus a 10% idea, and this is part of where the whole framework for the book comes from. Really, what we’re after as marketers is not 10% growth per se, right? 10% growth kind of means you did something and it was good, and it probably moved the needle a little bit, but it’s really hard to tell, and if you keep doing it, it might slowly get there.
But really what you’re looking for is these 10x jump-aheads. Like, you need to skip ahead and multiply your results by 10 times, and they’re the holy grail, right? They’re not easy to get to. It’s like, how do you make an ad viral? Well, there’s no guarantees, right? But you’ve got to try and find some of those projects, and one of the ones I talk about is a company called Groove.
I like it ’cause they’re this startup that was doing content marketing, and they found themselves into this exact situation that we were talking about before, where, “Hey, we’re doing content marketing. We have a content marketing blog.” It’s a customer support tool, GrooveHQ is the URL, and I think they had a good number of subscribers, 5000-10,000 email subscribers, or something like that. So, for a small startup, pretty successful.
But the CEO, Alex Turnbull, wrote the team one morning and said, “Hey guys, our blog sucks. We’ve got to do something.” Basically what he was saying is, “This is plugging along and it’s doing okay, but this is not going to get us to jump ahead. As a company, we need to make some big jumps in revenue, in growth, in awareness, if we’re going to be able to get ahead in our marketplace, ’cause there’s a lot of support tools out here. We’ve got to make a difference.”
They took down that entire blog and what they ended up launching was something that started to tell their story. I love this because it’s something only they could do. They provide support software that by and large is going to be purchased by startups like a CoSchedule or something like that, where we provide a software solution to our customers, and we need to provide them with customer support. Pretty simple.
They just started talking about their journey as a startup. They published their numbers, they started talking about the things that worked for them in terms of growth, in terms of fundraising, in terms of how they structured their board. All of these different things just became wide open and visible to their audience, and within the first week, they added 5000, I think it was first eight days, 5000 email subscribers to their list.
They more than doubled their list in about a week, by changing that topic. It’s just this great leapfrog moment for them where they were able to do something that no one else could do, no one else was willing to talk about this stuff, but they were, and allowed them to change the whole conversation, and get out of that rut of doing “regular” content marketing, and doing something completely different.
John Jantsch: So, one of the ideas behind the book is that this was a bit of a retelling of your experience at CoSchedule. So, if I’m not putting words in your mouth. Give us the 50,000 foot view of how you applied 10x marketing to your content at CoSchedule.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I mean, the story, me and my co-founder ran a marketing agency and had a lot of the problems that many marketers do on a day-to-day basis, and thought, “There’s got to be a better way to do it.” We were web developers and software creators, so that’s the direction we went in. But when we launched a tool, we started just like everybody else. No subscribers, no followers, no customers.
We had to go from zero to somewhere very, very quickly, and the number one process I think we always focused on was this concept of 10x versus 10%. Like, it’s just something that even today, as CoSchedule’s over 60 people, it’s still something that we have a regular conversation about.
It was, as a team, in both of our, when it came to developing a product, when it came to doing marketing, we have to figure out how to constantly prioritize our biggest opportunities and make sure they’re getting the attention they deserve. I think it’s a hazard for anybody, I think it can especially become a hazard for marketing teams, because there is a lot on your plate. There’s a lot of people out there telling, “Oh, you have to get on Snapchat. Oh, you have to get on Instagram. You have to do this.”
All of those things become these 10% things that really remove focus from your team, and when you remove focus, you remove the opportunity for those big growth. You may be able to see continued growth, like I’m not saying it’ll go away completely, but you lose the opportunity for those big 10x jumps, punch through on your results.
I’d say that framework was probably one of the biggest things where we just constantly were good at like, “Okay, what are all the projects we’re working on right now? Let’s put ’em on a whiteboard. Let’s grade ’em. How hard are they? Are they a one for really easy, and a three for really hard, and how much time they take? Then, do these things have the opportunity to grow our results by 10 times? Yes or no?”
If they didn’t, these were something that had to come off the board, and we’re just going to say, “You know what?” We talked about video content, video was one of those for us early on. This is something everyone’s saying we should do, it’s gotten popular, this was a couple of years ago. It’s gotten popular, we should probably consider it, but you know what? At the end of the day, it’s really hard for us, because we don’t have an internal video team, and you know what? What we’re really good at is written content, so we need to double down there and we just need to let video go for now, and we’ll come back to it when we have more resources, and we’ve..
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Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results
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John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Garrett Moon. He is the CEO and Co-Founder at CoSchedule. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, “10x Marketing Formula: Your Blueprint for Creating ‘Competition-Free Content’ That Stands Out and Gets Results.” So Garrett, thanks for joining me.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, thanks John. Thanks for having me on.
John Jantsch: So we have been saying for I don’t know, it seems like a decade, that content is king, and I guess there’s a lot of business owners that are out there still saying, “Is it really?” So, what are we missing?
Garrett Moon: I think that’s kind of been a good summary of some of the things I’ve been seeing going on in the industry, and as I’ve been talking to people at conferences, and just fellow marketers, that for last year or so, that’s the kind of question we’re asking. Is content marketing really driving ROI? Is it really giving our business the value that it needs to be giving?
I feel like in a lot of ways there’s a lot of disappointment and frustration with some of those results and returns. I think about Gartner’s Hype Cycle, and I’m sure it’s something a lot of people are familiar with, but it’s just a way that Gartner maps out how a new piece of technology is adopted.
It’s just this really, when something new comes out, you get some people very excited about it, and it generates a lot of hype, and a lot of talk, and a lot of big ideas, and it drives a lot of adoption very quickly. But what happens once you reach that apex, you have something called the trough of disillusionment, which is just as quickly as it went up, it goes right back down, and people are disappointed with the results that they’re getting from that new piece of technology.
I think with content we’ve hit that a little bit, right? We’ve adopted it, we’ve got the budgets for it, we’ve built the teams for it, but it’s not always giving us the results we want, and that’s the questions that we’re asking right now.
John Jantsch: I guess there’s a couple of things. Before we called it content marketing, I was producing content around the turn of the century, and it got a lot of attention. It drove ROI like crazy, because there just wasn’t that much competition. So, I mean, I think a couple of things are going on. I think two things. First off, we’re just saturated now. I mean, there’s just so much of it, because everybody got the message, but I think the other thing, too, is a lot of marketers just interpreted it as more was better. I think that’s exacerbated the problem.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think one of the things I talk about in the book is something called competition free content, and really what that is is about starting to see, it’s coming to exactly what you’re saying here, where you need to start looking at the industry, not that you’re just producing marketing that goes out and does its job, but your marketing itself is actually competing against other folks’ marketing.
I think in the content world, when you’re maybe in the old advertising days, if you’re doing direct mail or you’re doing TV, it’s really easy to think about that stuff, but when you’re self-publishing, when you’re using content, you forget that that content is in competition with everybody else in your industry. They’re all doing content marketing, too, you know?
It’s not like it used to be, where the only, in your world of competitors, if you’re the one on Facebook, or if you’re the one doing content marketing, no one else is. It was a big improvement. It’s not that way anymore. Now they’re all there already, so you’ve got to do something that differentiates yourself from the crowd for it to actually work.
John Jantsch: I think another thing that I run across a lot is that people have trouble wrapping their heads around the different intent for maybe different kinds of content, that there’s awareness content, and trust building content, and education, and insight, and nurturing, and even referral content.
I think that’s the part that not all of content is created equal or has a specific intention, and that’s a part I think where people really miss the boat on this ROI.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think some of that just comes from we’re publishing content, and that’s the goal, versus really thinking about where in my customer’s journey is this targeted at, and what is the exact call to action? I always think of it like this. Like, if you published a piece of content, and when your reader finishes consuming that content, or listener or whatever it is, and you only could have them do one thing afterwards, what would that one thing be, right?
Like, that I think, that one question can really help clarify that. It’s sort of a way to short circuit what it might be, because they might say, “Well, if I could just get an email address after that content, or as they consume that content, that’d be good enough for me,” right? Like, “I want them to join our audience so we can have communication,” or, “I want them to follow me on some network” or, “I want them to purchase something,” right?
That’s a whole different type of thing, but it can help you focus that content much more quickly.
John Jantsch: I think the thing that the early part of that journey is where I see people really struggle with. A lot of people get, “I want to sell something to somebody” but a lot of times all people know is they have a problem. They have not attached that problem to any solution or any approach at all, and so getting people to write content that articulates that we know the problem in your life seems to be the hardest content, but I think it’s the most effective.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely agree. Absolutely.
John Jantsch: How do you get, when you start thinking about awareness content, that to me many times just has to be about, “Hey, we know your problem,” how do you get people to focus on that? Because a lot of times, that will have absolutely nothing to do with your product or service.
Garrett Moon: For sure. One of the frameworks I like is something we call content core, and it’s just an exercise that we’ve developed, and we did internally in a variety of different formats. We’ve boiled it down to this topic that we call the content core. What it is really about doing is figuring out what are the content topics where there’s this overlap?
On one side, you need a content topic that is going to solve a problem that a customer has, right? I think the word customer to me is very important there. Not that a reader has, not that just some guy or gal searching the internet, but it’s actually a customer. What problems are your customers, the ones that actually end up putting money in the cash register, what problems are they experiencing?
Then, where do those problems overlap with the value that you provide as a business? In terms of how do their problems overlap with your solution? And not your solution in terms of content, exclusively, but actually your solution as a business, or as a service, or an organization, whatever you might be.
Really seeing where those overlap is the key, and now what you have to do is back out and say, “Okay well, how do I help them solve that problem in a way that provides value? We’re not getting away from the traditional ideas of content marketing here. We’re looking to provide the value. In fact, we go so far as CoSchedule is, we’ll actually provide you with a perfectly great solution for that.
One example is we have a feature on our … We make marketing software, and we launched a feature that helps our customers plan marketing campaigns. The problem that they have is, well, a lot of times when they’re planning marketing campaigns that are multifaceted, there’s multiple moving parts, emails and blog posts, and social, and all these different things, they’re spread out across all these different tools.
So, for them, it was really difficult to see, to have single visibility on how this campaign is doing. Is the team producing it? What are the results we’re getting? That single point of visibility was the problem. So, what we did was we actually wrote a series, several different posts that were all focused on that exact problem, right? How to manage marketing projects so you don’t go crazy, right? Like, how to keep everything from your one marketing campaign in one place, and our content actually provided an Excel spreadsheet, I think it was like a Google Doc document that you could use for planning and managing those items.
So, CoSchedule certainly could help them. That’d be one possibility, but we also provided a completely independent, fully serviceable solution that helped ease their pain point. It’s a way where you can meld that problem versus solution, but still provide that real value, and a connection to your brand. The win there is that they’re associating the solution to that problem with your brand versus just providing you traffic and clicks, which is relatively easy to get these days.
John Jantsch: I think what you just outlined there has become the bar to entry, and I think that’s maybe one of the challenges, is that people maybe aren’t willing to go that far.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, and I think that’s true. I think sometimes early days, you settle for those parallel topics that I talk about. The ones that run parallel to your business, and they’re these types of things where your audience is interested in this. For CoSchedule, that might be something like 10 free marketing tips, right? Our 10 free best marketing ideas, just like a list post or something, where it’s relatively generic content, and our audience is certainly interested in it. They like to consume that, they might even share it, but it doesn’t really connect them with the value that we provide as a company. Doesn’t connect them to why we exist.
So, I think it’s sometimes, it’s just making that leap, getting passed that parallel stuff and into the type of content that really can dig in and provide value and results for the business.
John Jantsch: When you plan content, and we can unpack your four phases of planning, execution, publishing, and analysis. We probably should do that, but when you plan content, how do you reconcile the fact that I think content is really what powers just about every channel? I think it powers advertising, it powers email, it powers social, it powers PR. Do you plan this core content or content core, I’m sorry, to be adaptable to all of those channels?
Garrett Moon: That’s a great question. I think it sort of does, and we’ve always done that exercise on more of a creating content for our blog, right? Is a primary source of where everything’s beginning. But I think inevitability it all bleeds over. There’s a lot of times where we’re working on lists and ideas for topics for our blog or for eBooks or something like that, and it’ll start to bleed over into some of our paid efforts. Those ideas will start to carry over and we’ll start building landing pages and paid campaigns.
It definitely bleeds over into how we do email, so I think so much of that is driven by the core content pieces that you’re creating anyhow, that it just ends up bleeding over rather than having to be something that you focus on doing. I think if you really find good content core topics, I think as a marketing team, it will just naturally focus you on the right stuff, and that will carry over.
John Jantsch: Yeah, I have been saying for a couple of years that I think content really is the voice of strategy, so I think that’s a good way to encapsulate that.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I like that.
John Jantsch: So let’s talk editorial calendars then. First off, I’m going to ask you if you think just about everybody needs one, but then also, how do people manage the fact that, really when it used to just be an offline spreadsheet even, maybe is how people did it originally, but then we started bringing in all of these online places. We had something in WordPress, we had stuff that we were doing in email, we had visual components that we were getting produced, so how do we bring it all together and then keep it inside of the overall marketing plan?
Garrett Moon: Well, for a lot of teams, I think that editorial calendar becomes the marketing plan, right? Really the thing we talk about, and we do, is if you really take the time and focus yourself on the right core topics and the right ideas, and the right things for your audience, all of this stuff falls into place.
We don’t really need the 30-40 page marketing plan, like we used to. We do need a strategy, we need to understand what channels our customers are using, and what’s going to be most effective. We need to understand that, and sure, we can write it down, but we need to put ourselves into a place where we’re not doing a marketing plan that’s going to tell us what we need to do for the next year, right? But we need maybe an editorial calendar and a short strategy that’s going to tell us where to focus on for the next three months so that we can say, “Okay, did this work? And how is the next three months going to work? How are we going to adapt and how are we going to shift?”
I think a couple of those things become these really important framing concepts. Content core is really good, kind of gets you on the right foot, and then you start taking that into the calendar, and now you have your action plan. I love this idea, I think one of the most powerful piece of a calendar is that it separates strategy from action. I think that’s a really important change, or important part of the process, right?
You have to set some time strategy, and then you need to set some time aside to execute it. That doesn’t mean you don’t come back and see and measure and look, and see how it went, and evaluate. You definitely have to do that, and we have a process for that as well, but that calendar gives you the ability to take your strategy, put it on paper, or on a drag and drop interface, and then execute it with a lot of focus and get it out there on time.
It’s that accountability side of making sure you hold to that strategy. For everybody that’s going to vary a little bit. Like, how far you want to plan out, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, 2-3 months, depending on what you’re doing, will vary. But it gives you that solid place to execute and if you’ve spent the right amount of time on strategy and you reflect on it at the right times in the year, it should be a very focused calendar for you.
John Jantsch: What in your opinion should a content team look like today? Now, I know that that’s relative maybe to the size of the organization, but what functions maybe should a team have, even if it’s all being done by two people or something?
Garrett Moon: Yeah. It’s a great question, ’cause I think a lot of times we think of content as, we think of the content, right? Is it audio content? Is it video content? Is it written content? Probably most traditionally you think of the written side of things. So you certainly need writing, but the real thing about it is more and more you’re seeing content teams, like now, they’re owning social, they’re owning 100% of social. They’re owning email, like 100% of the email program with a company is ending up on that team.
Because the content becomes the driver of all of those things, right? Where the content goes, it’s driving the social, it’s driving what we’re talking about on email. So now you have all of these components that you need to do. You’ve got to be writing, you’ve got to have some good social chops, you’ve got to know email. There’s a lot of technical pieces of that, but now you’ve got to figure out how to measure that and analyze it.
You have to have a strategy, and somewhat of a technical side, or at least the ability to understand the data you’re looking at and how to piece things together, but be able to strategize on that. A content team today, it’s a multi discipline team. I mean, it’s not one or two things. It’s five, six, seven different things that they have to be really good at.
John Jantsch: I tell you, where I see a ton of growth is I see a lot of organizations hiring videographers and editing teams, because they’re just capturing so much video now.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, and I mean, we’re doing the same thing around here all the time. The iPhone’s a great companion for that, but eventually you have to standardize it a little bit.
John Jantsch: You did a number of interviews for the book, and I’m not going to ask you who your favorite interview was, but maybe point out a couple of people that you think are doing a great job with this 10x approach, with their content.
Garrett Moon: Yeah. Well, it wasn’t an interview, but one of my favorite examples of just a 10x … One of the things we talk about is just these 10x ideas, and part of that is a 10x idea versus a 10% idea, and this is part of where the whole framework for the book comes from. Really, what we’re after as marketers is not 10% growth per se, right? 10% growth kind of means you did something and it was good, and it probably moved the needle a little bit, but it’s really hard to tell, and if you keep doing it, it might slowly get there.
But really what you’re looking for is these 10x jump-aheads. Like, you need to skip ahead and multiply your results by 10 times, and they’re the holy grail, right? They’re not easy to get to. It’s like, how do you make an ad viral? Well, there’s no guarantees, right? But you’ve got to try and find some of those projects, and one of the ones I talk about is a company called Groove.
I like it ’cause they’re this startup that was doing content marketing, and they found themselves into this exact situation that we were talking about before, where, “Hey, we’re doing content marketing. We have a content marketing blog.” It’s a customer support tool, GrooveHQ is the URL, and I think they had a good number of subscribers, 5000-10,000 email subscribers, or something like that. So, for a small startup, pretty successful.
But the CEO, Alex Turnbull, wrote the team one morning and said, “Hey guys, our blog sucks. We’ve got to do something.” Basically what he was saying is, “This is plugging along and it’s doing okay, but this is not going to get us to jump ahead. As a company, we need to make some big jumps in revenue, in growth, in awareness, if we’re going to be able to get ahead in our marketplace, ’cause there’s a lot of support tools out here. We’ve got to make a difference.”
They took down that entire blog and what they ended up launching was something that started to tell their story. I love this because it’s something only they could do. They provide support software that by and large is going to be purchased by startups like a CoSchedule or something like that, where we provide a software solution to our customers, and we need to provide them with customer support. Pretty simple.
They just started talking about their journey as a startup. They published their numbers, they started talking about the things that worked for them in terms of growth, in terms of fundraising, in terms of how they structured their board. All of these different things just became wide open and visible to their audience, and within the first week, they added 5000, I think it was first eight days, 5000 email subscribers to their list.
They more than doubled their list in about a week, by changing that topic. It’s just this great leapfrog moment for them where they were able to do something that no one else could do, no one else was willing to talk about this stuff, but they were, and allowed them to change the whole conversation, and get out of that rut of doing “regular” content marketing, and doing something completely different.
John Jantsch: So, one of the ideas behind the book is that this was a bit of a retelling of your experience at CoSchedule. So, if I’m not putting words in your mouth. Give us the 50,000 foot view of how you applied 10x marketing to your content at CoSchedule.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I mean, the story, me and my co-founder ran a marketing agency and had a lot of the problems that many marketers do on a day-to-day basis, and thought, “There’s got to be a better way to do it.” We were web developers and software creators, so that’s the direction we went in. But when we launched a tool, we started just like everybody else. No subscribers, no followers, no customers.
We had to go from zero to somewhere very, very quickly, and the number one process I think we always focused on was this concept of 10x versus 10%. Like, it’s just something that even today, as CoSchedule’s over 60 people, it’s still something that we have a regular conversation about.
It was, as a team, in both of our, when it came to developing a product, when it came to doing marketing, we have to figure out how to constantly prioritize our biggest opportunities and make sure they’re getting the attention they deserve. I think it’s a hazard for anybody, I think it can especially become a hazard for marketing teams, because there is a lot on your plate. There’s a lot of people out there telling, “Oh, you have to get on Snapchat. Oh, you have to get on Instagram. You have to do this.”
All of those things become these 10% things that really remove focus from your team, and when you remove focus, you remove the opportunity for those big growth. You may be able to see continued growth, like I’m not saying it’ll go away completely, but you lose the opportunity for those big 10x jumps, punch through on your results.
I’d say that framework was probably one of the biggest things where we just constantly were good at like, “Okay, what are all the projects we’re working on right now? Let’s put ’em on a whiteboard. Let’s grade ’em. How hard are they? Are they a one for really easy, and a three for really hard, and how much time they take? Then, do these things have the opportunity to grow our results by 10 times? Yes or no?”
If they didn’t, these were something that had to come off the board, and we’re just going to say, “You know what?” We talked about video content, video was one of those for us early on. This is something everyone’s saying we should do, it’s gotten popular, this was a couple of years ago. It’s gotten popular, we should probably consider it, but you know what? At the end of the day, it’s really hard for us, because we don’t have an internal video team, and you know what? What we’re really good at is written content, so we need to double down there and we just need to let video go for now, and we’ll come back to it when we have more resources, and we’ve..
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Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results
Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results
Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing
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John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Garrett Moon. He is the CEO and Co-Founder at CoSchedule. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, “10x Marketing Formula: Your Blueprint for Creating ‘Competition-Free Content’ That Stands Out and Gets Results.” So Garrett, thanks for joining me.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, thanks John. Thanks for having me on.
John Jantsch: So we have been saying for I don’t know, it seems like a decade, that content is king, and I guess there’s a lot of business owners that are out there still saying, “Is it really?” So, what are we missing?
Garrett Moon: I think that’s kind of been a good summary of some of the things I’ve been seeing going on in the industry, and as I’ve been talking to people at conferences, and just fellow marketers, that for last year or so, that’s the kind of question we’re asking. Is content marketing really driving ROI? Is it really giving our business the value that it needs to be giving?
I feel like in a lot of ways there’s a lot of disappointment and frustration with some of those results and returns. I think about Gartner’s Hype Cycle, and I’m sure it’s something a lot of people are familiar with, but it’s just a way that Gartner maps out how a new piece of technology is adopted.
It’s just this really, when something new comes out, you get some people very excited about it, and it generates a lot of hype, and a lot of talk, and a lot of big ideas, and it drives a lot of adoption very quickly. But what happens once you reach that apex, you have something called the trough of disillusionment, which is just as quickly as it went up, it goes right back down, and people are disappointed with the results that they’re getting from that new piece of technology.
I think with content we’ve hit that a little bit, right? We’ve adopted it, we’ve got the budgets for it, we’ve built the teams for it, but it’s not always giving us the results we want, and that’s the questions that we’re asking right now.
John Jantsch: I guess there’s a couple of things. Before we called it content marketing, I was producing content around the turn of the century, and it got a lot of attention. It drove ROI like crazy, because there just wasn’t that much competition. So, I mean, I think a couple of things are going on. I think two things. First off, we’re just saturated now. I mean, there’s just so much of it, because everybody got the message, but I think the other thing, too, is a lot of marketers just interpreted it as more was better. I think that’s exacerbated the problem.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think one of the things I talk about in the book is something called competition free content, and really what that is is about starting to see, it’s coming to exactly what you’re saying here, where you need to start looking at the industry, not that you’re just producing marketing that goes out and does its job, but your marketing itself is actually competing against other folks’ marketing.
I think in the content world, when you’re maybe in the old advertising days, if you’re doing direct mail or you’re doing TV, it’s really easy to think about that stuff, but when you’re self-publishing, when you’re using content, you forget that that content is in competition with everybody else in your industry. They’re all doing content marketing, too, you know?
It’s not like it used to be, where the only, in your world of competitors, if you’re the one on Facebook, or if you’re the one doing content marketing, no one else is. It was a big improvement. It’s not that way anymore. Now they’re all there already, so you’ve got to do something that differentiates yourself from the crowd for it to actually work.
John Jantsch: I think another thing that I run across a lot is that people have trouble wrapping their heads around the different intent for maybe different kinds of content, that there’s awareness content, and trust building content, and education, and insight, and nurturing, and even referral content.
I think that’s the part that not all of content is created equal or has a specific intention, and that’s a part I think where people really miss the boat on this ROI.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think some of that just comes from we’re publishing content, and that’s the goal, versus really thinking about where in my customer’s journey is this targeted at, and what is the exact call to action? I always think of it like this. Like, if you published a piece of content, and when your reader finishes consuming that content, or listener or whatever it is, and you only could have them do one thing afterwards, what would that one thing be, right?
Like, that I think, that one question can really help clarify that. It’s sort of a way to short circuit what it might be, because they might say, “Well, if I could just get an email address after that content, or as they consume that content, that’d be good enough for me,” right? Like, “I want them to join our audience so we can have communication,” or, “I want them to follow me on some network” or, “I want them to purchase something,” right?
That’s a whole different type of thing, but it can help you focus that content much more quickly.
John Jantsch: I think the thing that the early part of that journey is where I see people really struggle with. A lot of people get, “I want to sell something to somebody” but a lot of times all people know is they have a problem. They have not attached that problem to any solution or any approach at all, and so getting people to write content that articulates that we know the problem in your life seems to be the hardest content, but I think it’s the most effective.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely agree. Absolutely.
John Jantsch: How do you get, when you start thinking about awareness content, that to me many times just has to be about, “Hey, we know your problem,” how do you get people to focus on that? Because a lot of times, that will have absolutely nothing to do with your product or service.
Garrett Moon: For sure. One of the frameworks I like is something we call content core, and it’s just an exercise that we’ve developed, and we did internally in a variety of different formats. We’ve boiled it down to this topic that we call the content core. What it is really about doing is figuring out what are the content topics where there’s this overlap?
On one side, you need a content topic that is going to solve a problem that a customer has, right? I think the word customer to me is very important there. Not that a reader has, not that just some guy or gal searching the internet, but it’s actually a customer. What problems are your customers, the ones that actually end up putting money in the cash register, what problems are they experiencing?
Then, where do those problems overlap with the value that you provide as a business? In terms of how do their problems overlap with your solution? And not your solution in terms of content, exclusively, but actually your solution as a business, or as a service, or an organization, whatever you might be.
Really seeing where those overlap is the key, and now what you have to do is back out and say, “Okay well, how do I help them solve that problem in a way that provides value? We’re not getting away from the traditional ideas of content marketing here. We’re looking to provide the value. In fact, we go so far as CoSchedule is, we’ll actually provide you with a perfectly great solution for that.
One example is we have a feature on our … We make marketing software, and we launched a feature that helps our customers plan marketing campaigns. The problem that they have is, well, a lot of times when they’re planning marketing campaigns that are multifaceted, there’s multiple moving parts, emails and blog posts, and social, and all these different things, they’re spread out across all these different tools.
So, for them, it was really difficult to see, to have single visibility on how this campaign is doing. Is the team producing it? What are the results we’re getting? That single point of visibility was the problem. So, what we did was we actually wrote a series, several different posts that were all focused on that exact problem, right? How to manage marketing projects so you don’t go crazy, right? Like, how to keep everything from your one marketing campaign in one place, and our content actually provided an Excel spreadsheet, I think it was like a Google Doc document that you could use for planning and managing those items.
So, CoSchedule certainly could help them. That’d be one possibility, but we also provided a completely independent, fully serviceable solution that helped ease their pain point. It’s a way where you can meld that problem versus solution, but still provide that real value, and a connection to your brand. The win there is that they’re associating the solution to that problem with your brand versus just providing you traffic and clicks, which is relatively easy to get these days.
John Jantsch: I think what you just outlined there has become the bar to entry, and I think that’s maybe one of the challenges, is that people maybe aren’t willing to go that far.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, and I think that’s true. I think sometimes early days, you settle for those parallel topics that I talk about. The ones that run parallel to your business, and they’re these types of things where your audience is interested in this. For CoSchedule, that might be something like 10 free marketing tips, right? Our 10 free best marketing ideas, just like a list post or something, where it’s relatively generic content, and our audience is certainly interested in it. They like to consume that, they might even share it, but it doesn’t really connect them with the value that we provide as a company. Doesn’t connect them to why we exist.
So, I think it’s sometimes, it’s just making that leap, getting passed that parallel stuff and into the type of content that really can dig in and provide value and results for the business.
John Jantsch: When you plan content, and we can unpack your four phases of planning, execution, publishing, and analysis. We probably should do that, but when you plan content, how do you reconcile the fact that I think content is really what powers just about every channel? I think it powers advertising, it powers email, it powers social, it powers PR. Do you plan this core content or content core, I’m sorry, to be adaptable to all of those channels?
Garrett Moon: That’s a great question. I think it sort of does, and we’ve always done that exercise on more of a creating content for our blog, right? Is a primary source of where everything’s beginning. But I think inevitability it all bleeds over. There’s a lot of times where we’re working on lists and ideas for topics for our blog or for eBooks or something like that, and it’ll start to bleed over into some of our paid efforts. Those ideas will start to carry over and we’ll start building landing pages and paid campaigns.
It definitely bleeds over into how we do email, so I think so much of that is driven by the core content pieces that you’re creating anyhow, that it just ends up bleeding over rather than having to be something that you focus on doing. I think if you really find good content core topics, I think as a marketing team, it will just naturally focus you on the right stuff, and that will carry over.
John Jantsch: Yeah, I have been saying for a couple of years that I think content really is the voice of strategy, so I think that’s a good way to encapsulate that.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I like that.
John Jantsch: So let’s talk editorial calendars then. First off, I’m going to ask you if you think just about everybody needs one, but then also, how do people manage the fact that, really when it used to just be an offline spreadsheet even, maybe is how people did it originally, but then we started bringing in all of these online places. We had something in WordPress, we had stuff that we were doing in email, we had visual components that we were getting produced, so how do we bring it all together and then keep it inside of the overall marketing plan?
Garrett Moon: Well, for a lot of teams, I think that editorial calendar becomes the marketing plan, right? Really the thing we talk about, and we do, is if you really take the time and focus yourself on the right core topics and the right ideas, and the right things for your audience, all of this stuff falls into place.
We don’t really need the 30-40 page marketing plan, like we used to. We do need a strategy, we need to understand what channels our customers are using, and what’s going to be most effective. We need to understand that, and sure, we can write it down, but we need to put ourselves into a place where we’re not doing a marketing plan that’s going to tell us what we need to do for the next year, right? But we need maybe an editorial calendar and a short strategy that’s going to tell us where to focus on for the next three months so that we can say, “Okay, did this work? And how is the next three months going to work? How are we going to adapt and how are we going to shift?”
I think a couple of those things become these really important framing concepts. Content core is really good, kind of gets you on the right foot, and then you start taking that into the calendar, and now you have your action plan. I love this idea, I think one of the most powerful piece of a calendar is that it separates strategy from action. I think that’s a really important change, or important part of the process, right?
You have to set some time strategy, and then you need to set some time aside to execute it. That doesn’t mean you don’t come back and see and measure and look, and see how it went, and evaluate. You definitely have to do that, and we have a process for that as well, but that calendar gives you the ability to take your strategy, put it on paper, or on a drag and drop interface, and then execute it with a lot of focus and get it out there on time.
It’s that accountability side of making sure you hold to that strategy. For everybody that’s going to vary a little bit. Like, how far you want to plan out, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, 2-3 months, depending on what you’re doing, will vary. But it gives you that solid place to execute and if you’ve spent the right amount of time on strategy and you reflect on it at the right times in the year, it should be a very focused calendar for you.
John Jantsch: What in your opinion should a content team look like today? Now, I know that that’s relative maybe to the size of the organization, but what functions maybe should a team have, even if it’s all being done by two people or something?
Garrett Moon: Yeah. It’s a great question, ’cause I think a lot of times we think of content as, we think of the content, right? Is it audio content? Is it video content? Is it written content? Probably most traditionally you think of the written side of things. So you certainly need writing, but the real thing about it is more and more you’re seeing content teams, like now, they’re owning social, they’re owning 100% of social. They’re owning email, like 100% of the email program with a company is ending up on that team.
Because the content becomes the driver of all of those things, right? Where the content goes, it’s driving the social, it’s driving what we’re talking about on email. So now you have all of these components that you need to do. You’ve got to be writing, you’ve got to have some good social chops, you’ve got to know email. There’s a lot of technical pieces of that, but now you’ve got to figure out how to measure that and analyze it.
You have to have a strategy, and somewhat of a technical side, or at least the ability to understand the data you’re looking at and how to piece things together, but be able to strategize on that. A content team today, it’s a multi discipline team. I mean, it’s not one or two things. It’s five, six, seven different things that they have to be really good at.
John Jantsch: I tell you, where I see a ton of growth is I see a lot of organizations hiring videographers and editing teams, because they’re just capturing so much video now.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, and I mean, we’re doing the same thing around here all the time. The iPhone’s a great companion for that, but eventually you have to standardize it a little bit.
John Jantsch: You did a number of interviews for the book, and I’m not going to ask you who your favorite interview was, but maybe point out a couple of people that you think are doing a great job with this 10x approach, with their content.
Garrett Moon: Yeah. Well, it wasn’t an interview, but one of my favorite examples of just a 10x … One of the things we talk about is just these 10x ideas, and part of that is a 10x idea versus a 10% idea, and this is part of where the whole framework for the book comes from. Really, what we’re after as marketers is not 10% growth per se, right? 10% growth kind of means you did something and it was good, and it probably moved the needle a little bit, but it’s really hard to tell, and if you keep doing it, it might slowly get there.
But really what you’re looking for is these 10x jump-aheads. Like, you need to skip ahead and multiply your results by 10 times, and they’re the holy grail, right? They’re not easy to get to. It’s like, how do you make an ad viral? Well, there’s no guarantees, right? But you’ve got to try and find some of those projects, and one of the ones I talk about is a company called Groove.
I like it ’cause they’re this startup that was doing content marketing, and they found themselves into this exact situation that we were talking about before, where, “Hey, we’re doing content marketing. We have a content marketing blog.” It’s a customer support tool, GrooveHQ is the URL, and I think they had a good number of subscribers, 5000-10,000 email subscribers, or something like that. So, for a small startup, pretty successful.
But the CEO, Alex Turnbull, wrote the team one morning and said, “Hey guys, our blog sucks. We’ve got to do something.” Basically what he was saying is, “This is plugging along and it’s doing okay, but this is not going to get us to jump ahead. As a company, we need to make some big jumps in revenue, in growth, in awareness, if we’re going to be able to get ahead in our marketplace, ’cause there’s a lot of support tools out here. We’ve got to make a difference.”
They took down that entire blog and what they ended up launching was something that started to tell their story. I love this because it’s something only they could do. They provide support software that by and large is going to be purchased by startups like a CoSchedule or something like that, where we provide a software solution to our customers, and we need to provide them with customer support. Pretty simple.
They just started talking about their journey as a startup. They published their numbers, they started talking about the things that worked for them in terms of growth, in terms of fundraising, in terms of how they structured their board. All of these different things just became wide open and visible to their audience, and within the first week, they added 5000, I think it was first eight days, 5000 email subscribers to their list.
They more than doubled their list in about a week, by changing that topic. It’s just this great leapfrog moment for them where they were able to do something that no one else could do, no one else was willing to talk about this stuff, but they were, and allowed them to change the whole conversation, and get out of that rut of doing “regular” content marketing, and doing something completely different.
John Jantsch: So, one of the ideas behind the book is that this was a bit of a retelling of your experience at CoSchedule. So, if I’m not putting words in your mouth. Give us the 50,000 foot view of how you applied 10x marketing to your content at CoSchedule.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I mean, the story, me and my co-founder ran a marketing agency and had a lot of the problems that many marketers do on a day-to-day basis, and thought, “There’s got to be a better way to do it.” We were web developers and software creators, so that’s the direction we went in. But when we launched a tool, we started just like everybody else. No subscribers, no followers, no customers.
We had to go from zero to somewhere very, very quickly, and the number one process I think we always focused on was this concept of 10x versus 10%. Like, it’s just something that even today, as CoSchedule’s over 60 people, it’s still something that we have a regular conversation about.
It was, as a team, in both of our, when it came to developing a product, when it came to doing marketing, we have to figure out how to constantly prioritize our biggest opportunities and make sure they’re getting the attention they deserve. I think it’s a hazard for anybody, I think it can especially become a hazard for marketing teams, because there is a lot on your plate. There’s a lot of people out there telling, “Oh, you have to get on Snapchat. Oh, you have to get on Instagram. You have to do this.”
All of those things become these 10% things that really remove focus from your team, and when you remove focus, you remove the opportunity for those big growth. You may be able to see continued growth, like I’m not saying it’ll go away completely, but you lose the opportunity for those big 10x jumps, punch through on your results.
I’d say that framework was probably one of the biggest things where we just constantly were good at like, “Okay, what are all the projects we’re working on right now? Let’s put ’em on a whiteboard. Let’s grade ’em. How hard are they? Are they a one for really easy, and a three for really hard, and how much time they take? Then, do these things have the opportunity to grow our results by 10 times? Yes or no?”
If they didn’t, these were something that had to come off the board, and we’re just going to say, “You know what?” We talked about video content, video was one of those for us early on. This is something everyone’s saying we should do, it’s gotten popular, this was a couple of years ago. It’s gotten popular, we should probably consider it, but you know what? At the end of the day, it’s really hard for us, because we don’t have an internal video team, and you know what? What we’re really good at is written content, so we need to double down there and we just need to let video go for now, and we’ll come back to it when we have more resources, and we’ve..
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John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Garrett Moon. He is the CEO and Co-Founder at CoSchedule. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, “10x Marketing Formula: Your Blueprint for Creating ‘Competition-Free Content’ That Stands Out and Gets Results.” So Garrett, thanks for joining me.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, thanks John. Thanks for having me on.
John Jantsch: So we have been saying for I don’t know, it seems like a decade, that content is king, and I guess there’s a lot of business owners that are out there still saying, “Is it really?” So, what are we missing?
Garrett Moon: I think that’s kind of been a good summary of some of the things I’ve been seeing going on in the industry, and as I’ve been talking to people at conferences, and just fellow marketers, that for last year or so, that’s the kind of question we’re asking. Is content marketing really driving ROI? Is it really giving our business the value that it needs to be giving?
I feel like in a lot of ways there’s a lot of disappointment and frustration with some of those results and returns. I think about Gartner’s Hype Cycle, and I’m sure it’s something a lot of people are familiar with, but it’s just a way that Gartner maps out how a new piece of technology is adopted.
It’s just this really, when something new comes out, you get some people very excited about it, and it generates a lot of hype, and a lot of talk, and a lot of big ideas, and it drives a lot of adoption very quickly. But what happens once you reach that apex, you have something called the trough of disillusionment, which is just as quickly as it went up, it goes right back down, and people are disappointed with the results that they’re getting from that new piece of technology.
I think with content we’ve hit that a little bit, right? We’ve adopted it, we’ve got the budgets for it, we’ve built the teams for it, but it’s not always giving us the results we want, and that’s the questions that we’re asking right now.
John Jantsch: I guess there’s a couple of things. Before we called it content marketing, I was producing content around the turn of the century, and it got a lot of attention. It drove ROI like crazy, because there just wasn’t that much competition. So, I mean, I think a couple of things are going on. I think two things. First off, we’re just saturated now. I mean, there’s just so much of it, because everybody got the message, but I think the other thing, too, is a lot of marketers just interpreted it as more was better. I think that’s exacerbated the problem.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think one of the things I talk about in the book is something called competition free content, and really what that is is about starting to see, it’s coming to exactly what you’re saying here, where you need to start looking at the industry, not that you’re just producing marketing that goes out and does its job, but your marketing itself is actually competing against other folks’ marketing.
I think in the content world, when you’re maybe in the old advertising days, if you’re doing direct mail or you’re doing TV, it’s really easy to think about that stuff, but when you’re self-publishing, when you’re using content, you forget that that content is in competition with everybody else in your industry. They’re all doing content marketing, too, you know?
It’s not like it used to be, where the only, in your world of competitors, if you’re the one on Facebook, or if you’re the one doing content marketing, no one else is. It was a big improvement. It’s not that way anymore. Now they’re all there already, so you’ve got to do something that differentiates yourself from the crowd for it to actually work.
John Jantsch: I think another thing that I run across a lot is that people have trouble wrapping their heads around the different intent for maybe different kinds of content, that there’s awareness content, and trust building content, and education, and insight, and nurturing, and even referral content.
I think that’s the part that not all of content is created equal or has a specific intention, and that’s a part I think where people really miss the boat on this ROI.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think some of that just comes from we’re publishing content, and that’s the goal, versus really thinking about where in my customer’s journey is this targeted at, and what is the exact call to action? I always think of it like this. Like, if you published a piece of content, and when your reader finishes consuming that content, or listener or whatever it is, and you only could have them do one thing afterwards, what would that one thing be, right?
Like, that I think, that one question can really help clarify that. It’s sort of a way to short circuit what it might be, because they might say, “Well, if I could just get an email address after that content, or as they consume that content, that’d be good enough for me,” right? Like, “I want them to join our audience so we can have communication,” or, “I want them to follow me on some network” or, “I want them to purchase something,” right?
That’s a whole different type of thing, but it can help you focus that content much more quickly.
John Jantsch: I think the thing that the early part of that journey is where I see people really struggle with. A lot of people get, “I want to sell something to somebody” but a lot of times all people know is they have a problem. They have not attached that problem to any solution or any approach at all, and so getting people to write content that articulates that we know the problem in your life seems to be the hardest content, but I think it’s the most effective.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely agree. Absolutely.
John Jantsch: How do you get, when you start thinking about awareness content, that to me many times just has to be about, “Hey, we know your problem,” how do you get people to focus on that? Because a lot of times, that will have absolutely nothing to do with your product or service.
Garrett Moon: For sure. One of the frameworks I like is something we call content core, and it’s just an exercise that we’ve developed, and we did internally in a variety of different formats. We’ve boiled it down to this topic that we call the content core. What it is really about doing is figuring out what are the content topics where there’s this overlap?
On one side, you need a content topic that is going to solve a problem that a customer has, right? I think the word customer to me is very important there. Not that a reader has, not that just some guy or gal searching the internet, but it’s actually a customer. What problems are your customers, the ones that actually end up putting money in the cash register, what problems are they experiencing?
Then, where do those problems overlap with the value that you provide as a business? In terms of how do their problems overlap with your solution? And not your solution in terms of content, exclusively, but actually your solution as a business, or as a service, or an organization, whatever you might be.
Really seeing where those overlap is the key, and now what you have to do is back out and say, “Okay well, how do I help them solve that problem in a way that provides value? We’re not getting away from the traditional ideas of content marketing here. We’re looking to provide the value. In fact, we go so far as CoSchedule is, we’ll actually provide you with a perfectly great solution for that.
One example is we have a feature on our … We make marketing software, and we launched a feature that helps our customers plan marketing campaigns. The problem that they have is, well, a lot of times when they’re planning marketing campaigns that are multifaceted, there’s multiple moving parts, emails and blog posts, and social, and all these different things, they’re spread out across all these different tools.
So, for them, it was really difficult to see, to have single visibility on how this campaign is doing. Is the team producing it? What are the results we’re getting? That single point of visibility was the problem. So, what we did was we actually wrote a series, several different posts that were all focused on that exact problem, right? How to manage marketing projects so you don’t go crazy, right? Like, how to keep everything from your one marketing campaign in one place, and our content actually provided an Excel spreadsheet, I think it was like a Google Doc document that you could use for planning and managing those items.
So, CoSchedule certainly could help them. That’d be one possibility, but we also provided a completely independent, fully serviceable solution that helped ease their pain point. It’s a way where you can meld that problem versus solution, but still provide that real value, and a connection to your brand. The win there is that they’re associating the solution to that problem with your brand versus just providing you traffic and clicks, which is relatively easy to get these days.
John Jantsch: I think what you just outlined there has become the bar to entry, and I think that’s maybe one of the challenges, is that people maybe aren’t willing to go that far.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, and I think that’s true. I think sometimes early days, you settle for those parallel topics that I talk about. The ones that run parallel to your business, and they’re these types of things where your audience is interested in this. For CoSchedule, that might be something like 10 free marketing tips, right? Our 10 free best marketing ideas, just like a list post or something, where it’s relatively generic content, and our audience is certainly interested in it. They like to consume that, they might even share it, but it doesn’t really connect them with the value that we provide as a company. Doesn’t connect them to why we exist.
So, I think it’s sometimes, it’s just making that leap, getting passed that parallel stuff and into the type of content that really can dig in and provide value and results for the business.
John Jantsch: When you plan content, and we can unpack your four phases of planning, execution, publishing, and analysis. We probably should do that, but when you plan content, how do you reconcile the fact that I think content is really what powers just about every channel? I think it powers advertising, it powers email, it powers social, it powers PR. Do you plan this core content or content core, I’m sorry, to be adaptable to all of those channels?
Garrett Moon: That’s a great question. I think it sort of does, and we’ve always done that exercise on more of a creating content for our blog, right? Is a primary source of where everything’s beginning. But I think inevitability it all bleeds over. There’s a lot of times where we’re working on lists and ideas for topics for our blog or for eBooks or something like that, and it’ll start to bleed over into some of our paid efforts. Those ideas will start to carry over and we’ll start building landing pages and paid campaigns.
It definitely bleeds over into how we do email, so I think so much of that is driven by the core content pieces that you’re creating anyhow, that it just ends up bleeding over rather than having to be something that you focus on doing. I think if you really find good content core topics, I think as a marketing team, it will just naturally focus you on the right stuff, and that will carry over.
John Jantsch: Yeah, I have been saying for a couple of years that I think content really is the voice of strategy, so I think that’s a good way to encapsulate that.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I like that.
John Jantsch: So let’s talk editorial calendars then. First off, I’m going to ask you if you think just about everybody needs one, but then also, how do people manage the fact that, really when it used to just be an offline spreadsheet even, maybe is how people did it originally, but then we started bringing in all of these online places. We had something in WordPress, we had stuff that we were doing in email, we had visual components that we were getting produced, so how do we bring it all together and then keep it inside of the overall marketing plan?
Garrett Moon: Well, for a lot of teams, I think that editorial calendar becomes the marketing plan, right? Really the thing we talk about, and we do, is if you really take the time and focus yourself on the right core topics and the right ideas, and the right things for your audience, all of this stuff falls into place.
We don’t really need the 30-40 page marketing plan, like we used to. We do need a strategy, we need to understand what channels our customers are using, and what’s going to be most effective. We need to understand that, and sure, we can write it down, but we need to put ourselves into a place where we’re not doing a marketing plan that’s going to tell us what we need to do for the next year, right? But we need maybe an editorial calendar and a short strategy that’s going to tell us where to focus on for the next three months so that we can say, “Okay, did this work? And how is the next three months going to work? How are we going to adapt and how are we going to shift?”
I think a couple of those things become these really important framing concepts. Content core is really good, kind of gets you on the right foot, and then you start taking that into the calendar, and now you have your action plan. I love this idea, I think one of the most powerful piece of a calendar is that it separates strategy from action. I think that’s a really important change, or important part of the process, right?
You have to set some time strategy, and then you need to set some time aside to execute it. That doesn’t mean you don’t come back and see and measure and look, and see how it went, and evaluate. You definitely have to do that, and we have a process for that as well, but that calendar gives you the ability to take your strategy, put it on paper, or on a drag and drop interface, and then execute it with a lot of focus and get it out there on time.
It’s that accountability side of making sure you hold to that strategy. For everybody that’s going to vary a little bit. Like, how far you want to plan out, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, 2-3 months, depending on what you’re doing, will vary. But it gives you that solid place to execute and if you’ve spent the right amount of time on strategy and you reflect on it at the right times in the year, it should be a very focused calendar for you.
John Jantsch: What in your opinion should a content team look like today? Now, I know that that’s relative maybe to the size of the organization, but what functions maybe should a team have, even if it’s all being done by two people or something?
Garrett Moon: Yeah. It’s a great question, ’cause I think a lot of times we think of content as, we think of the content, right? Is it audio content? Is it video content? Is it written content? Probably most traditionally you think of the written side of things. So you certainly need writing, but the real thing about it is more and more you’re seeing content teams, like now, they’re owning social, they’re owning 100% of social. They’re owning email, like 100% of the email program with a company is ending up on that team.
Because the content becomes the driver of all of those things, right? Where the content goes, it’s driving the social, it’s driving what we’re talking about on email. So now you have all of these components that you need to do. You’ve got to be writing, you’ve got to have some good social chops, you’ve got to know email. There’s a lot of technical pieces of that, but now you’ve got to figure out how to measure that and analyze it.
You have to have a strategy, and somewhat of a technical side, or at least the ability to understand the data you’re looking at and how to piece things together, but be able to strategize on that. A content team today, it’s a multi discipline team. I mean, it’s not one or two things. It’s five, six, seven different things that they have to be really good at.
John Jantsch: I tell you, where I see a ton of growth is I see a lot of organizations hiring videographers and editing teams, because they’re just capturing so much video now.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, and I mean, we’re doing the same thing around here all the time. The iPhone’s a great companion for that, but eventually you have to standardize it a little bit.
John Jantsch: You did a number of interviews for the book, and I’m not going to ask you who your favorite interview was, but maybe point out a couple of people that you think are doing a great job with this 10x approach, with their content.
Garrett Moon: Yeah. Well, it wasn’t an interview, but one of my favorite examples of just a 10x … One of the things we talk about is just these 10x ideas, and part of that is a 10x idea versus a 10% idea, and this is part of where the whole framework for the book comes from. Really, what we’re after as marketers is not 10% growth per se, right? 10% growth kind of means you did something and it was good, and it probably moved the needle a little bit, but it’s really hard to tell, and if you keep doing it, it might slowly get there.
But really what you’re looking for is these 10x jump-aheads. Like, you need to skip ahead and multiply your results by 10 times, and they’re the holy grail, right? They’re not easy to get to. It’s like, how do you make an ad viral? Well, there’s no guarantees, right? But you’ve got to try and find some of those projects, and one of the ones I talk about is a company called Groove.
I like it ’cause they’re this startup that was doing content marketing, and they found themselves into this exact situation that we were talking about before, where, “Hey, we’re doing content marketing. We have a content marketing blog.” It’s a customer support tool, GrooveHQ is the URL, and I think they had a good number of subscribers, 5000-10,000 email subscribers, or something like that. So, for a small startup, pretty successful.
But the CEO, Alex Turnbull, wrote the team one morning and said, “Hey guys, our blog sucks. We’ve got to do something.” Basically what he was saying is, “This is plugging along and it’s doing okay, but this is not going to get us to jump ahead. As a company, we need to make some big jumps in revenue, in growth, in awareness, if we’re going to be able to get ahead in our marketplace, ’cause there’s a lot of support tools out here. We’ve got to make a difference.”
They took down that entire blog and what they ended up launching was something that started to tell their story. I love this because it’s something only they could do. They provide support software that by and large is going to be purchased by startups like a CoSchedule or something like that, where we provide a software solution to our customers, and we need to provide them with customer support. Pretty simple.
They just started talking about their journey as a startup. They published their numbers, they started talking about the things that worked for them in terms of growth, in terms of fundraising, in terms of how they structured their board. All of these different things just became wide open and visible to their audience, and within the first week, they added 5000, I think it was first eight days, 5000 email subscribers to their list.
They more than doubled their list in about a week, by changing that topic. It’s just this great leapfrog moment for them where they were able to do something that no one else could do, no one else was willing to talk about this stuff, but they were, and allowed them to change the whole conversation, and get out of that rut of doing “regular” content marketing, and doing something completely different.
John Jantsch: So, one of the ideas behind the book is that this was a bit of a retelling of your experience at CoSchedule. So, if I’m not putting words in your mouth. Give us the 50,000 foot view of how you applied 10x marketing to your content at CoSchedule.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I mean, the story, me and my co-founder ran a marketing agency and had a lot of the problems that many marketers do on a day-to-day basis, and thought, “There’s got to be a better way to do it.” We were web developers and software creators, so that’s the direction we went in. But when we launched a tool, we started just like everybody else. No subscribers, no followers, no customers.
We had to go from zero to somewhere very, very quickly, and the number one process I think we always focused on was this concept of 10x versus 10%. Like, it’s just something that even today, as CoSchedule’s over 60 people, it’s still something that we have a regular conversation about.
It was, as a team, in both of our, when it came to developing a product, when it came to doing marketing, we have to figure out how to constantly prioritize our biggest opportunities and make sure they’re getting the attention they deserve. I think it’s a hazard for anybody, I think it can especially become a hazard for marketing teams, because there is a lot on your plate. There’s a lot of people out there telling, “Oh, you have to get on Snapchat. Oh, you have to get on Instagram. You have to do this.”
All of those things become these 10% things that really remove focus from your team, and when you remove focus, you remove the opportunity for those big growth. You may be able to see continued growth, like I’m not saying it’ll go away completely, but you lose the opportunity for those big 10x jumps, punch through on your results.
I’d say that framework was probably one of the biggest things where we just constantly were good at like, “Okay, what are all the projects we’re working on right now? Let’s put ’em on a whiteboard. Let’s grade ’em. How hard are they? Are they a one for really easy, and a three for really hard, and how much time they take? Then, do these things have the opportunity to grow our results by 10 times? Yes or no?”
If they didn’t, these were something that had to come off the board, and we’re just going to say, “You know what?” We talked about video content, video was one of those for us early on. This is something everyone’s saying we should do, it’s gotten popular, this was a couple of years ago. It’s gotten popular, we should probably consider it, but you know what? At the end of the day, it’s really hard for us, because we don’t have an internal video team, and you know what? What we’re really good at is written content, so we need to double down there and we just need to let video go for now, and we’ll come back to it when we have more resources, and we’ve..
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John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Garrett Moon. He is the CEO and Co-Founder at CoSchedule. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, “10x Marketing Formula: Your Blueprint for Creating ‘Competition-Free Content’ That Stands Out and Gets Results.” So Garrett, thanks for joining me.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, thanks John. Thanks for having me on.
John Jantsch: So we have been saying for I don’t know, it seems like a decade, that content is king, and I guess there’s a lot of business owners that are out there still saying, “Is it really?” So, what are we missing?
Garrett Moon: I think that’s kind of been a good summary of some of the things I’ve been seeing going on in the industry, and as I’ve been talking to people at conferences, and just fellow marketers, that for last year or so, that’s the kind of question we’re asking. Is content marketing really driving ROI? Is it really giving our business the value that it needs to be giving?
I feel like in a lot of ways there’s a lot of disappointment and frustration with some of those results and returns. I think about Gartner’s Hype Cycle, and I’m sure it’s something a lot of people are familiar with, but it’s just a way that Gartner maps out how a new piece of technology is adopted.
It’s just this really, when something new comes out, you get some people very excited about it, and it generates a lot of hype, and a lot of talk, and a lot of big ideas, and it drives a lot of adoption very quickly. But what happens once you reach that apex, you have something called the trough of disillusionment, which is just as quickly as it went up, it goes right back down, and people are disappointed with the results that they’re getting from that new piece of technology.
I think with content we’ve hit that a little bit, right? We’ve adopted it, we’ve got the budgets for it, we’ve built the teams for it, but it’s not always giving us the results we want, and that’s the questions that we’re asking right now.
John Jantsch: I guess there’s a couple of things. Before we called it content marketing, I was producing content around the turn of the century, and it got a lot of attention. It drove ROI like crazy, because there just wasn’t that much competition. So, I mean, I think a couple of things are going on. I think two things. First off, we’re just saturated now. I mean, there’s just so much of it, because everybody got the message, but I think the other thing, too, is a lot of marketers just interpreted it as more was better. I think that’s exacerbated the problem.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think one of the things I talk about in the book is something called competition free content, and really what that is is about starting to see, it’s coming to exactly what you’re saying here, where you need to start looking at the industry, not that you’re just producing marketing that goes out and does its job, but your marketing itself is actually competing against other folks’ marketing.
I think in the content world, when you’re maybe in the old advertising days, if you’re doing direct mail or you’re doing TV, it’s really easy to think about that stuff, but when you’re self-publishing, when you’re using content, you forget that that content is in competition with everybody else in your industry. They’re all doing content marketing, too, you know?
It’s not like it used to be, where the only, in your world of competitors, if you’re the one on Facebook, or if you’re the one doing content marketing, no one else is. It was a big improvement. It’s not that way anymore. Now they’re all there already, so you’ve got to do something that differentiates yourself from the crowd for it to actually work.
John Jantsch: I think another thing that I run across a lot is that people have trouble wrapping their heads around the different intent for maybe different kinds of content, that there’s awareness content, and trust building content, and education, and insight, and nurturing, and even referral content.
I think that’s the part that not all of content is created equal or has a specific intention, and that’s a part I think where people really miss the boat on this ROI.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think some of that just comes from we’re publishing content, and that’s the goal, versus really thinking about where in my customer’s journey is this targeted at, and what is the exact call to action? I always think of it like this. Like, if you published a piece of content, and when your reader finishes consuming that content, or listener or whatever it is, and you only could have them do one thing afterwards, what would that one thing be, right?
Like, that I think, that one question can really help clarify that. It’s sort of a way to short circuit what it might be, because they might say, “Well, if I could just get an email address after that content, or as they consume that content, that’d be good enough for me,” right? Like, “I want them to join our audience so we can have communication,” or, “I want them to follow me on some network” or, “I want them to purchase something,” right?
That’s a whole different type of thing, but it can help you focus that content much more quickly.
John Jantsch: I think the thing that the early part of that journey is where I see people really struggle with. A lot of people get, “I want to sell something to somebody” but a lot of times all people know is they have a problem. They have not attached that problem to any solution or any approach at all, and so getting people to write content that articulates that we know the problem in your life seems to be the hardest content, but I think it’s the most effective.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely agree. Absolutely.
John Jantsch: How do you get, when you start thinking about awareness content, that to me many times just has to be about, “Hey, we know your problem,” how do you get people to focus on that? Because a lot of times, that will have absolutely nothing to do with your product or service.
Garrett Moon: For sure. One of the frameworks I like is something we call content core, and it’s just an exercise that we’ve developed, and we did internally in a variety of different formats. We’ve boiled it down to this topic that we call the content core. What it is really about doing is figuring out what are the content topics where there’s this overlap?
On one side, you need a content topic that is going to solve a problem that a customer has, right? I think the word customer to me is very important there. Not that a reader has, not that just some guy or gal searching the internet, but it’s actually a customer. What problems are your customers, the ones that actually end up putting money in the cash register, what problems are they experiencing?
Then, where do those problems overlap with the value that you provide as a business? In terms of how do their problems overlap with your solution? And not your solution in terms of content, exclusively, but actually your solution as a business, or as a service, or an organization, whatever you might be.
Really seeing where those overlap is the key, and now what you have to do is back out and say, “Okay well, how do I help them solve that problem in a way that provides value? We’re not getting away from the traditional ideas of content marketing here. We’re looking to provide the value. In fact, we go so far as CoSchedule is, we’ll actually provide you with a perfectly great solution for that.
One example is we have a feature on our … We make marketing software, and we launched a feature that helps our customers plan marketing campaigns. The problem that they have is, well, a lot of times when they’re planning marketing campaigns that are multifaceted, there’s multiple moving parts, emails and blog posts, and social, and all these different things, they’re spread out across all these different tools.
So, for them, it was really difficult to see, to have single visibility on how this campaign is doing. Is the team producing it? What are the results we’re getting? That single point of visibility was the problem. So, what we did was we actually wrote a series, several different posts that were all focused on that exact problem, right? How to manage marketing projects so you don’t go crazy, right? Like, how to keep everything from your one marketing campaign in one place, and our content actually provided an Excel spreadsheet, I think it was like a Google Doc document that you could use for planning and managing those items.
So, CoSchedule certainly could help them. That’d be one possibility, but we also provided a completely independent, fully serviceable solution that helped ease their pain point. It’s a way where you can meld that problem versus solution, but still provide that real value, and a connection to your brand. The win there is that they’re associating the solution to that problem with your brand versus just providing you traffic and clicks, which is relatively easy to get these days.
John Jantsch: I think what you just outlined there has become the bar to entry, and I think that’s maybe one of the challenges, is that people maybe aren’t willing to go that far.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, and I think that’s true. I think sometimes early days, you settle for those parallel topics that I talk about. The ones that run parallel to your business, and they’re these types of things where your audience is interested in this. For CoSchedule, that might be something like 10 free marketing tips, right? Our 10 free best marketing ideas, just like a list post or something, where it’s relatively generic content, and our audience is certainly interested in it. They like to consume that, they might even share it, but it doesn’t really connect them with the value that we provide as a company. Doesn’t connect them to why we exist.
So, I think it’s sometimes, it’s just making that leap, getting passed that parallel stuff and into the type of content that really can dig in and provide value and results for the business.
John Jantsch: When you plan content, and we can unpack your four phases of planning, execution, publishing, and analysis. We probably should do that, but when you plan content, how do you reconcile the fact that I think content is really what powers just about every channel? I think it powers advertising, it powers email, it powers social, it powers PR. Do you plan this core content or content core, I’m sorry, to be adaptable to all of those channels?
Garrett Moon: That’s a great question. I think it sort of does, and we’ve always done that exercise on more of a creating content for our blog, right? Is a primary source of where everything’s beginning. But I think inevitability it all bleeds over. There’s a lot of times where we’re working on lists and ideas for topics for our blog or for eBooks or something like that, and it’ll start to bleed over into some of our paid efforts. Those ideas will start to carry over and we’ll start building landing pages and paid campaigns.
It definitely bleeds over into how we do email, so I think so much of that is driven by the core content pieces that you’re creating anyhow, that it just ends up bleeding over rather than having to be something that you focus on doing. I think if you really find good content core topics, I think as a marketing team, it will just naturally focus you on the right stuff, and that will carry over.
John Jantsch: Yeah, I have been saying for a couple of years that I think content really is the voice of strategy, so I think that’s a good way to encapsulate that.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I like that.
John Jantsch: So let’s talk editorial calendars then. First off, I’m going to ask you if you think just about everybody needs one, but then also, how do people manage the fact that, really when it used to just be an offline spreadsheet even, maybe is how people did it originally, but then we started bringing in all of these online places. We had something in WordPress, we had stuff that we were doing in email, we had visual components that we were getting produced, so how do we bring it all together and then keep it inside of the overall marketing plan?
Garrett Moon: Well, for a lot of teams, I think that editorial calendar becomes the marketing plan, right? Really the thing we talk about, and we do, is if you really take the time and focus yourself on the right core topics and the right ideas, and the right things for your audience, all of this stuff falls into place.
We don’t really need the 30-40 page marketing plan, like we used to. We do need a strategy, we need to understand what channels our customers are using, and what’s going to be most effective. We need to understand that, and sure, we can write it down, but we need to put ourselves into a place where we’re not doing a marketing plan that’s going to tell us what we need to do for the next year, right? But we need maybe an editorial calendar and a short strategy that’s going to tell us where to focus on for the next three months so that we can say, “Okay, did this work? And how is the next three months going to work? How are we going to adapt and how are we going to shift?”
I think a couple of those things become these really important framing concepts. Content core is really good, kind of gets you on the right foot, and then you start taking that into the calendar, and now you have your action plan. I love this idea, I think one of the most powerful piece of a calendar is that it separates strategy from action. I think that’s a really important change, or important part of the process, right?
You have to set some time strategy, and then you need to set some time aside to execute it. That doesn’t mean you don’t come back and see and measure and look, and see how it went, and evaluate. You definitely have to do that, and we have a process for that as well, but that calendar gives you the ability to take your strategy, put it on paper, or on a drag and drop interface, and then execute it with a lot of focus and get it out there on time.
It’s that accountability side of making sure you hold to that strategy. For everybody that’s going to vary a little bit. Like, how far you want to plan out, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, 2-3 months, depending on what you’re doing, will vary. But it gives you that solid place to execute and if you’ve spent the right amount of time on strategy and you reflect on it at the right times in the year, it should be a very focused calendar for you.
John Jantsch: What in your opinion should a content team look like today? Now, I know that that’s relative maybe to the size of the organization, but what functions maybe should a team have, even if it’s all being done by two people or something?
Garrett Moon: Yeah. It’s a great question, ’cause I think a lot of times we think of content as, we think of the content, right? Is it audio content? Is it video content? Is it written content? Probably most traditionally you think of the written side of things. So you certainly need writing, but the real thing about it is more and more you’re seeing content teams, like now, they’re owning social, they’re owning 100% of social. They’re owning email, like 100% of the email program with a company is ending up on that team.
Because the content becomes the driver of all of those things, right? Where the content goes, it’s driving the social, it’s driving what we’re talking about on email. So now you have all of these components that you need to do. You’ve got to be writing, you’ve got to have some good social chops, you’ve got to know email. There’s a lot of technical pieces of that, but now you’ve got to figure out how to measure that and analyze it.
You have to have a strategy, and somewhat of a technical side, or at least the ability to understand the data you’re looking at and how to piece things together, but be able to strategize on that. A content team today, it’s a multi discipline team. I mean, it’s not one or two things. It’s five, six, seven different things that they have to be really good at.
John Jantsch: I tell you, where I see a ton of growth is I see a lot of organizations hiring videographers and editing teams, because they’re just capturing so much video now.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, and I mean, we’re doing the same thing around here all the time. The iPhone’s a great companion for that, but eventually you have to standardize it a little bit.
John Jantsch: You did a number of interviews for the book, and I’m not going to ask you who your favorite interview was, but maybe point out a couple of people that you think are doing a great job with this 10x approach, with their content.
Garrett Moon: Yeah. Well, it wasn’t an interview, but one of my favorite examples of just a 10x … One of the things we talk about is just these 10x ideas, and part of that is a 10x idea versus a 10% idea, and this is part of where the whole framework for the book comes from. Really, what we’re after as marketers is not 10% growth per se, right? 10% growth kind of means you did something and it was good, and it probably moved the needle a little bit, but it’s really hard to tell, and if you keep doing it, it might slowly get there.
But really what you’re looking for is these 10x jump-aheads. Like, you need to skip ahead and multiply your results by 10 times, and they’re the holy grail, right? They’re not easy to get to. It’s like, how do you make an ad viral? Well, there’s no guarantees, right? But you’ve got to try and find some of those projects, and one of the ones I talk about is a company called Groove.
I like it ’cause they’re this startup that was doing content marketing, and they found themselves into this exact situation that we were talking about before, where, “Hey, we’re doing content marketing. We have a content marketing blog.” It’s a customer support tool, GrooveHQ is the URL, and I think they had a good number of subscribers, 5000-10,000 email subscribers, or something like that. So, for a small startup, pretty successful.
But the CEO, Alex Turnbull, wrote the team one morning and said, “Hey guys, our blog sucks. We’ve got to do something.” Basically what he was saying is, “This is plugging along and it’s doing okay, but this is not going to get us to jump ahead. As a company, we need to make some big jumps in revenue, in growth, in awareness, if we’re going to be able to get ahead in our marketplace, ’cause there’s a lot of support tools out here. We’ve got to make a difference.”
They took down that entire blog and what they ended up launching was something that started to tell their story. I love this because it’s something only they could do. They provide support software that by and large is going to be purchased by startups like a CoSchedule or something like that, where we provide a software solution to our customers, and we need to provide them with customer support. Pretty simple.
They just started talking about their journey as a startup. They published their numbers, they started talking about the things that worked for them in terms of growth, in terms of fundraising, in terms of how they structured their board. All of these different things just became wide open and visible to their audience, and within the first week, they added 5000, I think it was first eight days, 5000 email subscribers to their list.
They more than doubled their list in about a week, by changing that topic. It’s just this great leapfrog moment for them where they were able to do something that no one else could do, no one else was willing to talk about this stuff, but they were, and allowed them to change the whole conversation, and get out of that rut of doing “regular” content marketing, and doing something completely different.
John Jantsch: So, one of the ideas behind the book is that this was a bit of a retelling of your experience at CoSchedule. So, if I’m not putting words in your mouth. Give us the 50,000 foot view of how you applied 10x marketing to your content at CoSchedule.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I mean, the story, me and my co-founder ran a marketing agency and had a lot of the problems that many marketers do on a day-to-day basis, and thought, “There’s got to be a better way to do it.” We were web developers and software creators, so that’s the direction we went in. But when we launched a tool, we started just like everybody else. No subscribers, no followers, no customers.
We had to go from zero to somewhere very, very quickly, and the number one process I think we always focused on was this concept of 10x versus 10%. Like, it’s just something that even today, as CoSchedule’s over 60 people, it’s still something that we have a regular conversation about.
It was, as a team, in both of our, when it came to developing a product, when it came to doing marketing, we have to figure out how to constantly prioritize our biggest opportunities and make sure they’re getting the attention they deserve. I think it’s a hazard for anybody, I think it can especially become a hazard for marketing teams, because there is a lot on your plate. There’s a lot of people out there telling, “Oh, you have to get on Snapchat. Oh, you have to get on Instagram. You have to do this.”
All of those things become these 10% things that really remove focus from your team, and when you remove focus, you remove the opportunity for those big growth. You may be able to see continued growth, like I’m not saying it’ll go away completely, but you lose the opportunity for those big 10x jumps, punch through on your results.
I’d say that framework was probably one of the biggest things where we just constantly were good at like, “Okay, what are all the projects we’re working on right now? Let’s put ’em on a whiteboard. Let’s grade ’em. How hard are they? Are they a one for really easy, and a three for really hard, and how much time they take? Then, do these things have the opportunity to grow our results by 10 times? Yes or no?”
If they didn’t, these were something that had to come off the board, and we’re just going to say, “You know what?” We talked about video content, video was one of those for us early on. This is something everyone’s saying we should do, it’s gotten popular, this was a couple of years ago. It’s gotten popular, we should probably consider it, but you know what? At the end of the day, it’s really hard for us, because we don’t have an internal video team, and you know what? What we’re really good at is written content, so we need to double down there and we just need to let video go for now, and we’ll come back to it when we have more resources, and we’ve..
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Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results
Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results
Transcript of How to Create Content That Stands Out and Gets Results written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing
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John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Garrett Moon. He is the CEO and Co-Founder at CoSchedule. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, “10x Marketing Formula: Your Blueprint for Creating ‘Competition-Free Content’ That Stands Out and Gets Results.” So Garrett, thanks for joining me.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, thanks John. Thanks for having me on.
John Jantsch: So we have been saying for I don’t know, it seems like a decade, that content is king, and I guess there’s a lot of business owners that are out there still saying, “Is it really?” So, what are we missing?
Garrett Moon: I think that’s kind of been a good summary of some of the things I’ve been seeing going on in the industry, and as I’ve been talking to people at conferences, and just fellow marketers, that for last year or so, that’s the kind of question we’re asking. Is content marketing really driving ROI? Is it really giving our business the value that it needs to be giving?
I feel like in a lot of ways there’s a lot of disappointment and frustration with some of those results and returns. I think about Gartner’s Hype Cycle, and I’m sure it’s something a lot of people are familiar with, but it’s just a way that Gartner maps out how a new piece of technology is adopted.
It’s just this really, when something new comes out, you get some people very excited about it, and it generates a lot of hype, and a lot of talk, and a lot of big ideas, and it drives a lot of adoption very quickly. But what happens once you reach that apex, you have something called the trough of disillusionment, which is just as quickly as it went up, it goes right back down, and people are disappointed with the results that they’re getting from that new piece of technology.
I think with content we’ve hit that a little bit, right? We’ve adopted it, we’ve got the budgets for it, we’ve built the teams for it, but it’s not always giving us the results we want, and that’s the questions that we’re asking right now.
John Jantsch: I guess there’s a couple of things. Before we called it content marketing, I was producing content around the turn of the century, and it got a lot of attention. It drove ROI like crazy, because there just wasn’t that much competition. So, I mean, I think a couple of things are going on. I think two things. First off, we’re just saturated now. I mean, there’s just so much of it, because everybody got the message, but I think the other thing, too, is a lot of marketers just interpreted it as more was better. I think that’s exacerbated the problem.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think one of the things I talk about in the book is something called competition free content, and really what that is is about starting to see, it’s coming to exactly what you’re saying here, where you need to start looking at the industry, not that you’re just producing marketing that goes out and does its job, but your marketing itself is actually competing against other folks’ marketing.
I think in the content world, when you’re maybe in the old advertising days, if you’re doing direct mail or you’re doing TV, it’s really easy to think about that stuff, but when you’re self-publishing, when you’re using content, you forget that that content is in competition with everybody else in your industry. They’re all doing content marketing, too, you know?
It’s not like it used to be, where the only, in your world of competitors, if you’re the one on Facebook, or if you’re the one doing content marketing, no one else is. It was a big improvement. It’s not that way anymore. Now they’re all there already, so you’ve got to do something that differentiates yourself from the crowd for it to actually work.
John Jantsch: I think another thing that I run across a lot is that people have trouble wrapping their heads around the different intent for maybe different kinds of content, that there’s awareness content, and trust building content, and education, and insight, and nurturing, and even referral content.
I think that’s the part that not all of content is created equal or has a specific intention, and that’s a part I think where people really miss the boat on this ROI.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely. I think some of that just comes from we’re publishing content, and that’s the goal, versus really thinking about where in my customer’s journey is this targeted at, and what is the exact call to action? I always think of it like this. Like, if you published a piece of content, and when your reader finishes consuming that content, or listener or whatever it is, and you only could have them do one thing afterwards, what would that one thing be, right?
Like, that I think, that one question can really help clarify that. It’s sort of a way to short circuit what it might be, because they might say, “Well, if I could just get an email address after that content, or as they consume that content, that’d be good enough for me,” right? Like, “I want them to join our audience so we can have communication,” or, “I want them to follow me on some network” or, “I want them to purchase something,” right?
That’s a whole different type of thing, but it can help you focus that content much more quickly.
John Jantsch: I think the thing that the early part of that journey is where I see people really struggle with. A lot of people get, “I want to sell something to somebody” but a lot of times all people know is they have a problem. They have not attached that problem to any solution or any approach at all, and so getting people to write content that articulates that we know the problem in your life seems to be the hardest content, but I think it’s the most effective.
Garrett Moon: Absolutely agree. Absolutely.
John Jantsch: How do you get, when you start thinking about awareness content, that to me many times just has to be about, “Hey, we know your problem,” how do you get people to focus on that? Because a lot of times, that will have absolutely nothing to do with your product or service.
Garrett Moon: For sure. One of the frameworks I like is something we call content core, and it’s just an exercise that we’ve developed, and we did internally in a variety of different formats. We’ve boiled it down to this topic that we call the content core. What it is really about doing is figuring out what are the content topics where there’s this overlap?
On one side, you need a content topic that is going to solve a problem that a customer has, right? I think the word customer to me is very important there. Not that a reader has, not that just some guy or gal searching the internet, but it’s actually a customer. What problems are your customers, the ones that actually end up putting money in the cash register, what problems are they experiencing?
Then, where do those problems overlap with the value that you provide as a business? In terms of how do their problems overlap with your solution? And not your solution in terms of content, exclusively, but actually your solution as a business, or as a service, or an organization, whatever you might be.
Really seeing where those overlap is the key, and now what you have to do is back out and say, “Okay well, how do I help them solve that problem in a way that provides value? We’re not getting away from the traditional ideas of content marketing here. We’re looking to provide the value. In fact, we go so far as CoSchedule is, we’ll actually provide you with a perfectly great solution for that.
One example is we have a feature on our … We make marketing software, and we launched a feature that helps our customers plan marketing campaigns. The problem that they have is, well, a lot of times when they’re planning marketing campaigns that are multifaceted, there’s multiple moving parts, emails and blog posts, and social, and all these different things, they’re spread out across all these different tools.
So, for them, it was really difficult to see, to have single visibility on how this campaign is doing. Is the team producing it? What are the results we’re getting? That single point of visibility was the problem. So, what we did was we actually wrote a series, several different posts that were all focused on that exact problem, right? How to manage marketing projects so you don’t go crazy, right? Like, how to keep everything from your one marketing campaign in one place, and our content actually provided an Excel spreadsheet, I think it was like a Google Doc document that you could use for planning and managing those items.
So, CoSchedule certainly could help them. That’d be one possibility, but we also provided a completely independent, fully serviceable solution that helped ease their pain point. It’s a way where you can meld that problem versus solution, but still provide that real value, and a connection to your brand. The win there is that they’re associating the solution to that problem with your brand versus just providing you traffic and clicks, which is relatively easy to get these days.
John Jantsch: I think what you just outlined there has become the bar to entry, and I think that’s maybe one of the challenges, is that people maybe aren’t willing to go that far.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, and I think that’s true. I think sometimes early days, you settle for those parallel topics that I talk about. The ones that run parallel to your business, and they’re these types of things where your audience is interested in this. For CoSchedule, that might be something like 10 free marketing tips, right? Our 10 free best marketing ideas, just like a list post or something, where it’s relatively generic content, and our audience is certainly interested in it. They like to consume that, they might even share it, but it doesn’t really connect them with the value that we provide as a company. Doesn’t connect them to why we exist.
So, I think it’s sometimes, it’s just making that leap, getting passed that parallel stuff and into the type of content that really can dig in and provide value and results for the business.
John Jantsch: When you plan content, and we can unpack your four phases of planning, execution, publishing, and analysis. We probably should do that, but when you plan content, how do you reconcile the fact that I think content is really what powers just about every channel? I think it powers advertising, it powers email, it powers social, it powers PR. Do you plan this core content or content core, I’m sorry, to be adaptable to all of those channels?
Garrett Moon: That’s a great question. I think it sort of does, and we’ve always done that exercise on more of a creating content for our blog, right? Is a primary source of where everything’s beginning. But I think inevitability it all bleeds over. There’s a lot of times where we’re working on lists and ideas for topics for our blog or for eBooks or something like that, and it’ll start to bleed over into some of our paid efforts. Those ideas will start to carry over and we’ll start building landing pages and paid campaigns.
It definitely bleeds over into how we do email, so I think so much of that is driven by the core content pieces that you’re creating anyhow, that it just ends up bleeding over rather than having to be something that you focus on doing. I think if you really find good content core topics, I think as a marketing team, it will just naturally focus you on the right stuff, and that will carry over.
John Jantsch: Yeah, I have been saying for a couple of years that I think content really is the voice of strategy, so I think that’s a good way to encapsulate that.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I like that.
John Jantsch: So let’s talk editorial calendars then. First off, I’m going to ask you if you think just about everybody needs one, but then also, how do people manage the fact that, really when it used to just be an offline spreadsheet even, maybe is how people did it originally, but then we started bringing in all of these online places. We had something in WordPress, we had stuff that we were doing in email, we had visual components that we were getting produced, so how do we bring it all together and then keep it inside of the overall marketing plan?
Garrett Moon: Well, for a lot of teams, I think that editorial calendar becomes the marketing plan, right? Really the thing we talk about, and we do, is if you really take the time and focus yourself on the right core topics and the right ideas, and the right things for your audience, all of this stuff falls into place.
We don’t really need the 30-40 page marketing plan, like we used to. We do need a strategy, we need to understand what channels our customers are using, and what’s going to be most effective. We need to understand that, and sure, we can write it down, but we need to put ourselves into a place where we’re not doing a marketing plan that’s going to tell us what we need to do for the next year, right? But we need maybe an editorial calendar and a short strategy that’s going to tell us where to focus on for the next three months so that we can say, “Okay, did this work? And how is the next three months going to work? How are we going to adapt and how are we going to shift?”
I think a couple of those things become these really important framing concepts. Content core is really good, kind of gets you on the right foot, and then you start taking that into the calendar, and now you have your action plan. I love this idea, I think one of the most powerful piece of a calendar is that it separates strategy from action. I think that’s a really important change, or important part of the process, right?
You have to set some time strategy, and then you need to set some time aside to execute it. That doesn’t mean you don’t come back and see and measure and look, and see how it went, and evaluate. You definitely have to do that, and we have a process for that as well, but that calendar gives you the ability to take your strategy, put it on paper, or on a drag and drop interface, and then execute it with a lot of focus and get it out there on time.
It’s that accountability side of making sure you hold to that strategy. For everybody that’s going to vary a little bit. Like, how far you want to plan out, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, 2-3 months, depending on what you’re doing, will vary. But it gives you that solid place to execute and if you’ve spent the right amount of time on strategy and you reflect on it at the right times in the year, it should be a very focused calendar for you.
John Jantsch: What in your opinion should a content team look like today? Now, I know that that’s relative maybe to the size of the organization, but what functions maybe should a team have, even if it’s all being done by two people or something?
Garrett Moon: Yeah. It’s a great question, ’cause I think a lot of times we think of content as, we think of the content, right? Is it audio content? Is it video content? Is it written content? Probably most traditionally you think of the written side of things. So you certainly need writing, but the real thing about it is more and more you’re seeing content teams, like now, they’re owning social, they’re owning 100% of social. They’re owning email, like 100% of the email program with a company is ending up on that team.
Because the content becomes the driver of all of those things, right? Where the content goes, it’s driving the social, it’s driving what we’re talking about on email. So now you have all of these components that you need to do. You’ve got to be writing, you’ve got to have some good social chops, you’ve got to know email. There’s a lot of technical pieces of that, but now you’ve got to figure out how to measure that and analyze it.
You have to have a strategy, and somewhat of a technical side, or at least the ability to understand the data you’re looking at and how to piece things together, but be able to strategize on that. A content team today, it’s a multi discipline team. I mean, it’s not one or two things. It’s five, six, seven different things that they have to be really good at.
John Jantsch: I tell you, where I see a ton of growth is I see a lot of organizations hiring videographers and editing teams, because they’re just capturing so much video now.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, and I mean, we’re doing the same thing around here all the time. The iPhone’s a great companion for that, but eventually you have to standardize it a little bit.
John Jantsch: You did a number of interviews for the book, and I’m not going to ask you who your favorite interview was, but maybe point out a couple of people that you think are doing a great job with this 10x approach, with their content.
Garrett Moon: Yeah. Well, it wasn’t an interview, but one of my favorite examples of just a 10x … One of the things we talk about is just these 10x ideas, and part of that is a 10x idea versus a 10% idea, and this is part of where the whole framework for the book comes from. Really, what we’re after as marketers is not 10% growth per se, right? 10% growth kind of means you did something and it was good, and it probably moved the needle a little bit, but it’s really hard to tell, and if you keep doing it, it might slowly get there.
But really what you’re looking for is these 10x jump-aheads. Like, you need to skip ahead and multiply your results by 10 times, and they’re the holy grail, right? They’re not easy to get to. It’s like, how do you make an ad viral? Well, there’s no guarantees, right? But you’ve got to try and find some of those projects, and one of the ones I talk about is a company called Groove.
I like it ’cause they’re this startup that was doing content marketing, and they found themselves into this exact situation that we were talking about before, where, “Hey, we’re doing content marketing. We have a content marketing blog.” It’s a customer support tool, GrooveHQ is the URL, and I think they had a good number of subscribers, 5000-10,000 email subscribers, or something like that. So, for a small startup, pretty successful.
But the CEO, Alex Turnbull, wrote the team one morning and said, “Hey guys, our blog sucks. We’ve got to do something.” Basically what he was saying is, “This is plugging along and it’s doing okay, but this is not going to get us to jump ahead. As a company, we need to make some big jumps in revenue, in growth, in awareness, if we’re going to be able to get ahead in our marketplace, ’cause there’s a lot of support tools out here. We’ve got to make a difference.”
They took down that entire blog and what they ended up launching was something that started to tell their story. I love this because it’s something only they could do. They provide support software that by and large is going to be purchased by startups like a CoSchedule or something like that, where we provide a software solution to our customers, and we need to provide them with customer support. Pretty simple.
They just started talking about their journey as a startup. They published their numbers, they started talking about the things that worked for them in terms of growth, in terms of fundraising, in terms of how they structured their board. All of these different things just became wide open and visible to their audience, and within the first week, they added 5000, I think it was first eight days, 5000 email subscribers to their list.
They more than doubled their list in about a week, by changing that topic. It’s just this great leapfrog moment for them where they were able to do something that no one else could do, no one else was willing to talk about this stuff, but they were, and allowed them to change the whole conversation, and get out of that rut of doing “regular” content marketing, and doing something completely different.
John Jantsch: So, one of the ideas behind the book is that this was a bit of a retelling of your experience at CoSchedule. So, if I’m not putting words in your mouth. Give us the 50,000 foot view of how you applied 10x marketing to your content at CoSchedule.
Garrett Moon: Yeah, I mean, the story, me and my co-founder ran a marketing agency and had a lot of the problems that many marketers do on a day-to-day basis, and thought, “There’s got to be a better way to do it.” We were web developers and software creators, so that’s the direction we went in. But when we launched a tool, we started just like everybody else. No subscribers, no followers, no customers.
We had to go from zero to somewhere very, very quickly, and the number one process I think we always focused on was this concept of 10x versus 10%. Like, it’s just something that even today, as CoSchedule’s over 60 people, it’s still something that we have a regular conversation about.
It was, as a team, in both of our, when it came to developing a product, when it came to doing marketing, we have to figure out how to constantly prioritize our biggest opportunities and make sure they’re getting the attention they deserve. I think it’s a hazard for anybody, I think it can especially become a hazard for marketing teams, because there is a lot on your plate. There’s a lot of people out there telling, “Oh, you have to get on Snapchat. Oh, you have to get on Instagram. You have to do this.”
All of those things become these 10% things that really remove focus from your team, and when you remove focus, you remove the opportunity for those big growth. You may be able to see continued growth, like I’m not saying it’ll go away completely, but you lose the opportunity for those big 10x jumps, punch through on your results.
I’d say that framework was probably one of the biggest things where we just constantly were good at like, “Okay, what are all the projects we’re working on right now? Let’s put ’em on a whiteboard. Let’s grade ’em. How hard are they? Are they a one for really easy, and a three for really hard, and how much time they take? Then, do these things have the opportunity to grow our results by 10 times? Yes or no?”
If they didn’t, these were something that had to come off the board, and we’re just going to say, “You know what?” We talked about video content, video was one of those for us early on. This is something everyone’s saying we should do, it’s gotten popular, this was a couple of years ago. It’s gotten popular, we should probably consider it, but you know what? At the end of the day, it’s really hard for us, because we don’t have an internal video team, and you know what? What we’re really good at is written content, so we need to double down there and we just need to let video go for now, and we’ll come back to it when we have more resources, and we’ve..
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