#because I wasn't very nice to dean in this review

[saltygilmores]

Thoughts While Watching Gilmore Girls, Season 3, Episode 13, Part 1, Aka Pickle- Gate

Lorelai and Rory are informing the Grands about their plans to traverse Europe after Rory graduates.

Two screen shots with incredible future meme potential. Emily: Richard, they want to sleep in a park like a couple of squirrels! What are people going to think when they see a grown woman bunking down with a bunch of 20 year olds? Lorelai regularly bunks down with a certain 18 year old boy here at home, soo... Time to prove me right, Predictable Gilmore!

Speaking of squirrels..

Hey look everyone, it's Dean. Let's point and laugh at him. Ha ha! He looks so stupid! LOL! I hope he takes his helmet off and a chunk of cinderblock falls on his head and renders him permanently comatose! lmao! Please tell me this is the episode where Dean asks Jess for extra pickles so Jess threatens to filet him and dump his lifeless body in a ditch.

Okay Patricia, I'm going to need you to chill. And where is my barf bucket? Time to simultaneously cross off "Miss Patty is Horny" and "Dean and Jess Sexual Tension" off my episode Bingo card (which I've been spotty about remembering to complete).

You know, the general sentiment seems to be that Miss Patty is absolutely slaying, but if she thinks this doofwad is worth wasting that pickup line on. it's likely she hasn't actually gotten laid in years. Or she might want to get checked for cataracts.

Jesus. Patty and Lorelai should both be on some kind of sex offender registry.

Oh Lucas. You sure know how to make a girl swoon.

Luke: This book just talks about fancy tablecloths and dish design and nothing about the food. Jess: You're going through a lot for this lawyer. Luke: She's not just a lawyer, she's also a lady, a very nice lady who probably expects good food on fancy plates and sparse yet elegant decor. This is what you do when you're dating.

Okay, sooo, no good food, fancy plates or elegant decor for Rory. Got it. Here's what Jess and Rory eat from:

IT'S PICKLE TIME!

Let's keep score, shall we? Of who comes out on top (snicker snicker) in this interaction.

This might be the one and only great snappy comeback that AmyShermanPalladino has ever assigned to the character of Dean. Dean delivers a brutal verbal blow. Jess is not completely unphased. He's clearly a bit shooketh, but probably just because Dean is hella annoying and is invading his personal space. He lets it go. 1 point to Dean. In Dean's defense, it wasn't actually that lengthy an order, certainly not "an order for the entire state of Connecticut" as Jess calls it (it was only 6 burgers) but it shouldn't have been a problem for Jess if he were just writing it down like the good little diner monkey he is. No points added or subtracted for either fella. Dean didn't really didn't do anything wrong, and Jess should have been doing his job.

Half a point to Jess for this quip. Could have used a little more spice, but a solid effort.

AMAZING. Calling Jess a female while also observing the job he does. 1 point to Dean because I started imagining Jess in a 50's diner waitress getup after that. Dean is at 2, Jess is at .5. Come on dude, you gotta catch up.

MEOW! Dean is on fire! With homoerotic longing, that is. Aching, yearning, crushing. Another point award to Dean, who stands at 3 points and Jess stagnates at a measly .5. Okay, okay, I'll bump the "Taylor's Errand Boy" quip up to a full point. 3 to 1.

Luke is lucky this place existed before Yelp reviews were a thing.

Half a point for Jess doing the bare minimum and writing down the order, and also because he's a cutie patooty. Dean stands at 3, Jess at 1.5.

Okay, when Dean first gave the order, it stood at a reasonable six burgers. It's now ballooned to over 15 overly complicated sandwiches, PLUS four hot dogs, two salads, five fries, five onion rings, an order of pickles, and a partridge in a pear tree. Half a point back to Jess, because he's been bamboozled and this order is truly fucking insane. This is why online ordering was invented. Lacking that, you don't just pull up to a restaurant and place an insane order like this on the spot. You call ahead, Dean Boy. It's just good manners, which you are sorely lacking. Even if he can write down the order, who's going to cook all this stuff so quickly? You know this place is woefully understaffed and Luke and Caesar are the only two people who cook for this entire place. 3 to 2.

Damn, Dean! You're really killing it today. Making up for all those years of hilariously stupid "You're the one who's going" and "you're wearing a tie" insults. Metaphorically killing it, that is. Jess is doing some actually killing. You should be scared. 4 for Dean vs 2 for Jess.

He's killed before and he's killed again Dean. Do you want to end up like Shane, Dean? This is how you end up like Shane. You might not be so lucky to be reincaranted after your death as a graceful yet vengeful bloodthirsty swan either. You should probably back down and take your order to Denny's instead. Due to the sheer insanity of threatening to filet a customer over some pickles ,Jess wins, of course.

AN UNEXPECTED NOPE! Bless. D: These men work for Taylor which means if you get it wrong they're going to send it back. You could be making this order until you die. (psssst, Dean, you know Jess isn't actually the one cooking the food, right? You goof a doof. This is only going to be a burden on poor Caesar I guess because Luke just skedaddled a few minutes ago). Also, both of you will have the good fortune to escape Stars Hollow and probably not die there. Rory, on the other hand. J: (with a knowing, homocidal smirk): Reads back entire order.

[frazzledsoul]

I found an interesting poll on Buzzfeed from a few years ago.

Let's see how this stacked up.

These results are SHOCKING! Luke and Lorelai win by a mile. RIP, Team Dean.

Again, SHOCKING! Mostly because that many people were willing to vote for Christopher, but otherwise the Diner Man wins.

Again, I am BLOWN AWAY by these results! Mostly because how on Earth do people rationalize a Rory/Dean ship working out? Even Marty makes more sense.

But who cares? It's a Team Jess world.

Rory comes in fourth behind Lorelai, Sookie, and Luke and barely outranks Jess. That's weird. I was told I wasn't allowed to prefer other characters to her or criticize any of her decisions. Huh. Funny how that goes.

Huh. I think the whole "stealing a boat because I received a bad performance review" aspect of her behavior is far more concerning than taking a break from college (and no, receiving criticism from someone she admired was not a justifiable reason for her actions, Rory doesn't have the right to break laws every time she's upset).

Ultimately, I'm not sure that fancy degree meant a lot in the long run since Lorelai is basically indifferent to Rory choosing to have other people support her and coast on her trust fund/wealthy lover's money twelve years later. But Rory is a grown adult, Lorelai can't make her go back to college, maybe she should have just...dealt with it? IDK. Just talking sense here.

Affairgate takes the prize here, as it should. No, sneaking around with your married ex and eventually fucking him (and then running off to Europe to cavort around on your grandmother's dime so no one finds out) isn't justified because Rory was bored, lonely, and thought she should be with Dean instead of Lindsey. You don't have a right to another woman's husband just because you want to feel better about yourself. And yes, a summer with a single if financially struggling Jess was a more moral and practical choice in every aspect. Rory isn't entitled to use Dean and Lindsey as her playthings when she's not as good at adapting to upper-class life as she used to be. After all, she has an ability to escape to that life to outrun her bad decisions. They don't. She had an ability to avoid the affair for weeks before it happened and she didn't. So yeah. Stupid, selfish, shallow behavior that helped ruin a marriage, hurt a completely innocent person, and it should not have taken her two years to say she regretted it.

Anyway, got off track there for a minute. We already know how I feel about Yale (not that big of a deal by itself).

Blurting out she was pregnant on her mother's long-awaited wedding day. Yes, that was really, really selfish. Was it the worst thing she even did in AYITL, though? Really, there's so many other options. There's also cheating on her own boyfriend with an engaged Logan, slacking on or quitting all her projects, moving home without asking and refusing to get a job, throwing an unholy tantrum because Lorelai didn't want her to exploit her private life in the exact way Rory wanted and shutting her out for weeks, having unprotected sex with her still-engaged ex even though she knows he's committed to getting married and getting pregnant....okay, other than the affair, the pregnancy reveal is probably the worst thing that she does, but there are so many other options.

I feel the fourth option shouldn't count here because not wanting to become homeless because of termite infestation is completely reasonable. There were really...so many other terrible decisions.

Affairgate is still the worst, though.

I know Luke/Lorelai fans who were very upset about their story because it ruined the endgame they had in their heads, but that's the problem with trusting ASP. I liked it, personally. My expectations were not high.

Rory's storyline was awful and if it's true that Alexis has shot down revival plans because she refuses to participate, I don't blame her.

I think the story has a perfectly nice ending that didn't require a lot of work for fans to dream up the exact ending they wanted and it should have stayed that way.

[bobabearstuff]

PasswordVN: more stuff I liked

Recently I published a written review for the visual novel Password, and despite some issues I had with the game's writing and design I gave it an overall strong recommendation for anybody with a keen interest in niche furry games. It was charming, had a memorable cast and was loaded with mystery and character drama, with its story primarily exploring themes of grief and trauma, set against a pseudo-science horror backdrop. Today I'm going to be talking about things that I wasn't able to fit in to my original review, either because I simply forgot or there was no way to talk about them without heavy spoilers. This isn't going to be nearly as formal or organized: just a rough stream of consciousness list of things I liked. To re-iterate there will be heavy spoilers concerning things like late-game reveals, CGs and the ultimate outcome of the story. If you've yet to complete Password or intend on playing it for yourself then you might want to stop reading now. Now without further ado, here's some more stuff I liked about Password, along with a few things that I didn't.

Dave: Dave is probably my favorite character in the game with Benson coming in at a close second (please marry me). His arc is the strongest and it's pretty clear that Grizz knew what his audience would connect with the most. Initially he's mostly shut-off and disinterested, and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot to his character, but this is purposeful. As the story progresses we get glimpses of Dave's internal struggles with loss and depression and come to understand why he's the way he is. Dave spends most of the second act folding under the pressure of having to save his companions while managing his own grief, and at a few points it becomes almost too much for him to bear. Things come to a head after a brush with death sends him in to a panic attack; following this he's forced in to a corner by his friends and with Tyson's aid is able to revisit the day his father died. During the flashback we get a great sense of Dave's personality prior to the incident and how withdrawn he's become by comparison. David bids his son a knowing final farewell and we're then treated to a sequence of CGs that are so effective at communicating the story that the dialog and narration become mostly obsolete. Cut back to the present and the dam breaks-Dave finally allows himself the room to grieve and comes to realize that with his friends to support him, the future could be a whole lot brighter. As the story progresses in to its later parts more and more of Dave's old self starts to bleed through, and by the end it's apparent that he's back to his former self: a nervous crybaby that's a bit daft and leans on his friends for support, but one that's compassionate, selfless to a fault and infectiously excitable. …….he is also very cute.

Dean: He is also very cute.

Thanatos: Thanatos is an absolute little bastard goblin man and I love him for no reason other than his snide personality and I can't fully articulate why, even taking in to account his absolutely integral role in the story. To be frank his sprites really help sell him for me (yes, even that one) and it just goes to show how much more of an impact a character can have from visuals alone.

Orlando smooch: This CG…is really cute. I especially like its associated scene in-game because it has one of my favorite exchanges ("But you're my gay problem"). He's best girl, don't @ me.

The mobsters: These two are great and manage to strike a nice balance between affable and utterly deplorable. Jack is the most compelling of the three and his single-minded psychosis makes him a great foil to Dave and the cast. I also enjoy the narrative's approach to Memphis as the big bad: he doesn't appear until very late in the game and even then, only on specific paths so the game compensates for that lack of presence by playing up his strength and influence. He's blunt and inelegant, and is generally thought of as not terribly smart either. On the other hand he's ridiculously physically strong to the point that a direct assault no matter how well organized is bound to have a few casualties. In addition he also has the position and power to make the law look the other way on a whim. It's a great example of how even a fool can be a force to be reckoned with. He's an almost insurmountable obstacle and the perfect test of Dave's "nobody gets left behind" motto, and it also helps reinforce just how tethered Orlando is to the family business-you can't help but feel bad for him.

My only real complaint lies with Dom, who seems to have gotten the short end of the stick in terms of development. He's primarily there to be the muscle and stop Jack from going bonkers, and while I want him to fold me like a pretzel he's just not nearly as interesting as the other two -he doesn't really contribute a ton to the overall plot and feels mostly extraneous. The game could function well enough without him but he's hot so he can stay.

This CG: is the coolest fucking thing I've ever seen in my entire life and I want Benson to have my babies.

Trapped: The narrative is very careful about making sure all of the bases are covered here. As the story escalates the manor is suddenly cut-off from the outside world; electronics are jammed and the only road down the mountain becomes inaccessible, effectively leaving the cast stranded. Finding an old map to help navigate the woods or taking their chances at scaling the debris are kind of moot options with a trio of violent mobsters patrolling and watching the manor like hawks. The game even punishes you if you try to escape down the mountain too early: Jack shows up and runs poor Dave through before sort of just nonchalantly discarding him over the cliff. Though the manor group has the advantage of numbers this is undercut by none of them being able to fight their way out of a paper bag excluding Benson who's well past his prime. All of this paints a dire picture for the circle of friends and really helps set the tone for the rest of the story, and also once again reinforces how much of a brick wall Memphis is.

This CG: is up there as one of my favorites and it marks a notable jump in quality for the art, with the scene rather creatively lit by the phone on the desk. While Hoss is my least favorite of the bunch this is admittedly a very sweet moment.

Tyson: While I could be snarky here and make some derisive comment about tossing Ty on to the pile of overdone "my wolf" OCs the fact of the matter is his character mostly steers clear of that trope, in spite of ticking off many of its boxes. His character route is a very cathartic one that manages to tickle the "I can fix him" part of my brain-he's the most troubled and flawed of the cast, and his route explores some pretty heavy topics like consent and child abuse that's both physical and sexual in nature. That last part is pretty heavily alluded to early on and having it more definitvely confirmed frames that one moment on day 8 in a new light. Tyson's decision to coerce Dave in to the bedroom is indefensible and the story makes that apparent, but it is one of the best examples of the game's approach to making sure every plot thread has a reason or purpose. Ty is violent and mean-spirited because that's all he's ever known, with the Halloways being the only ones to ever show him any love. In turn that makes his relationship with Dave all the more interesting; the two share a mutual, almost familial understanding of one another to such a degree that even words become dispensible. Tyson is also attracted to Dave, an idea that's mostly new and frightening to him given the history he has with his father, but the thought of losing Dave is even more horrifying-a fact that's made apparent during one of the game's bad paths where he breaks down and tearfully pleads to Dave to lead him away from the manor. It's such a brief moment and yet it's easily one of my favorites in the game, and I'd love to see how it'd look illustrated, but I'm getting off track. Tyson's feelings of attraction for Dave often manifest in the worst ways with him becoming extremely hostile or outright violent towards him for his continued probing and concern-even playful banter about his sexuality by other members of the cast is enough to make him rather aggravated, and his breed as a wolfdog is another sore spot for him, with it serving as an inescapable reminder of a mother who abandoned him.

He eventually manages to muster the courage to confess his love to Dave in a fashion that's both amusing and awkward, fittingly so. This scene had the potential to be plain uncomfortable but writing is smart enough to play up the humour to help it feel more balanced. It's refreshing then to see Tyson acting reflective by the time the A ending rolls around, with him resolving to become a better person thanks to Dave's unwavering and compassionate support. While Dave might have my overall favorite character vote, his chemistry with Ty is unabashedly some of the most engaging in the game.

This CG: is the cutest of all the cute shit and is pretty much contender for favorite in the game. I especially like how brain dead Tyson looks juxtaposed against Dave and his disgustingly adorable smile. He's absolutely beaming here and honestly, good, he's earned it. I'd also like to mention the absurd number of illustrations in Password-even if you're willing to count the Balcony and other such similar CGs with small variations as only one there's still close to 90 of these damn things. Grizz is a trooper.

The interrogation: I'm honestly stunned I didn't at least mention this one in passing in the review proper. The interrogation with Oswin is the most interactive segment of the game and it's all down to your own curiousity and creativity to milk whatever you can out of the pig. He'll answer numerous questions ranging from the manor's layout, its security system, his thoughts on certain characters-the list goes on. On my playthrough of the beta I only managed to squeeze out about a dozen or so answers before pressing on but I know full well there are plenty more hidden away. If you're like me and don't have the patience to really wrack your brain Oz is even kind enough to throw you a few suggestions to help you get the ball rolling. There's even a set of fun joke questions you can sling his way, though many of these are pretty secretive or specific so you likely won't stumble in to too many on your own. While I'm not really a huge fan of this part on a more personal level that simply has to do with the fact that I suck at these things-I'm still impressed by the amount of forethought and detail here and it's for a section that can very easily be skipped over if you simply don't feel like partaking.

This CG: is also very cute. While the balcony illustration and all of its variations are pretty memorable this one in particular stands out as a favorite for the expressions alone. Dave ain't having it this morning.

Benson: I've already briefly mentioned how much I like Benson but in truth, it's not that deep. He's cool, handsome and has this gentlemanly old-world charm. In addition his unyielding loyalty and care of the Hammonds, especially Oz is outright inspiring, and his continued protection of Dave and co. is equally admirable, often being at the expense of his own well-being and health. It's implied that this sort of labour is just a trifle to Benson in spite of his age, owing to his murky history as an assassin, which the game smartly leaves the details of up to your own imagination. We don't really see too much interaction between Oswin and old Benny but we still get a great sense for the bond the two have, with Benson having been less of a servant or guardian and more of a father figure. His death near the end of Path A is pretty heart-breaking and going over it again in preparation for this definitely made me a little misty-eyed. I'd also like to interject something here and say that while I've been critical of Password's prose in the past, there is one area where it excels, and that'd be characters with a prim or proper speech pattern. Any characters like Benson or the Hammonds that exhibit a certain degree of poise or gravitas sound pretty natural and the writing managed to nail them pretty much every time. This next CG is very-Oh god, please don't do this to me.

Dave's death: Without a doubt, this is the story's dramatic peak. We all knew this was coming since the game's content warning screen and it still managed to hit hard. Initially I was worried that the game would lean more in to its horror elements and end poor Dave in a much more violent and gory manner-thankfully Grizz had the sense and taste to not do that. It also has my favorite set of lines in the whole game; up until this point Dave's convinced he's been left for dead and nobody's coming to help. He's let off by Memphis and gang but not before Jack gives him a parting gift in the form of a lethal stab wound-after meandering around the woods in the dark Dave is led out by what appears to be the spirit of his father, and for a brief moment it even seems like he just might get away alive-then reality punches you in the nuts and says "nope"! Dave's final words are to simply express that he's happy that he didn't get left behind, to which a tearful Tyson swears that he never would. This scene is devastating and works so well because the game took its time to develop and flesh out Dave's character-it's evident that a lot of care was put in to this sequence to make sure it would impact so hard. Then there's also the reveal of Roswell as the true master of the vault near the end (called it), making it a real 1-2-Fuck you gut punch. If I was in the business of crying over video games like a sap, then I'd say I did like a small child, but that'd never be the case...

Roswell's smugface: Do I really need to elaborate on this one?

Now here's some stuff that I liked not so much!

The True ending: In my review I said that the game's ultimate conclusion was one of its weaker points, but that's not an entirely accurate statement. This is a perfectly functional and satisfying ending for how it ties up the more general story: everybody lives and Dave finally gets to be happy, and things end on a hopeful note, the implication being that with his other lived experiences having crossed over, Dave is able to help his companions work through their problems. Consequently this means Dave is able to break through Tyson's shell right away and get him to admit his feelings. I could make the argument that this sort of cheapens Tyson's character development, but not enough for it to seriously bother me. Realistically if the game absolutely had to settle on one single romance by the end, Tyson makes the most sense given his history with Dave, and while he isn't my favorite, he's far and away Password's most popular character so I imagine this'll sit well with most people. That bad boy bogan charm is pretty hard to resist. Initially I assumed the game went with this because it was simply trying to cater to fans but that's actually not the case-a little bird told me that it was part of the plan from the start. My problem here is that forcing the player to settle in to a fixed romance at the end undercuts a big part of the appeal for me and I imagine a fair few other people as well-what was the point of having all those romantic options if they were just going to get handwaved away at the end? If Password was a more linear or kinetic affair from the start that only had one set romance, or if the true ending was left vague enough that the reader could reasonably imagine Dave hooking up with any one of his potential suitors at the end then this might have worked. It's definitely a thing that sticks out to me, especially in a game like this that's otherwise pretty well constructed.

Oz ends it all: (Yes, I know that's not what the above illustration is about, bear with me) This is something that only happens on one of the game's offshoot bad paths. Having experienced an overwhelming amount of loss in a short span spurs Oswin to take the only way out he can see. This should be an absolute ball-kick and it almost gets there; the problem here is that the scene is very rushed and happens too quickly. This moment really needed time to breathe; a line or two of dialog where Dave stands shellshocked reflecting on what just happened. It also sort of just gets disregarded after it happens, with it seemingly having very little lasting impact; if you saw somebody end themselves, no matter how detached you are, you would not be this okay-least of all Dave who's already an emotional wreck.

Dave's blackouts: This is an odd one-for the first half of the story many scenes are ended by Dave blacking-out or mysteriously appearing elsewhere with no apparent explanation. At first this happened often enough that I assumed it was deliberate build-up to some sort of shocking revelation about Dave having weird out of body experiences or somesuch, but that doesn't seem to have been the case. This mostly gets dropped in the second-half of the story and seems to have had no real pay-off that I can discern, which in hindsight just makes it seem like an awkward way to end or tie scenes together.

Action: In my review I said that the narrative's weakpoint lied in it prose and no scenes make that more apparent than the showdowns with Memphis that bookend paths A and B. This could have just been a result of me becoming fatigued with the game's writing style by this point but these sequences in particular are very messy and disjointed feeling: they feel less like fluid fights and more like somebody picking their commands and waiting their turn like in an RPG, and they're probably my least favorite aspect of Password overall. Conveying engaging action in a game that primarily relies on text and static assets to tell its story is admittedly a pretty difficult thing to do so I'm willing to give the game the benefit of the doubt here and provide a comparison to illustrate how this sort of thing can be better done.

In Case of Emergency, (which is another great visual novel that I highly recommend) pulled off its climatic fight scene in a much more convincing way. For one there's a brevity and snappiness to the narration and dialog here, which is something that characterises the game at large and happens to tie in well with the pace an action sequence demands. Secondly character sprites also change and get progressively bruised and bloody and by the end of it you really start to get the feeling that everybody's tired and just wants to go home. Finally you're given several prompts in the form of dialog choices over the course of the fight and while they're ultimately just there for flavour and don't impact the battle in any meaningful way that small amount of faux-player interaction helps put you in the thick of it. Honestly I could probably gush all day about ICOE but that'll have to wait for another day. Lastly here are some more personal nitpicks-these things aren't serious faults and are mostly specific to me so take them with a grain of salt or twenty.

Whammy: For the uninformed author Grizz has an OC or fursona by the name of Rami who also happens to be a character that exists in Password's universe. He's mostly only mentioned in passing a few brief times as a part of certain character backstories, and while this is miles away from a self-insert story, having known Grizz in the past definitely made this a bit distracting. Not enough to spoil the story, but enough to briefly draw me out of it before I was able to set it aside.

The medals: These always felt a bit understated-they're more or less shoved in to the background and their importance isn't really emphasized until much later on. Initially when I picked the game up a few years ago I kind of forgot they were a part of the story every time until Dave and co. happened to stumble in to one-there's very little fanfare and they don't get much in the way of visual representation, and the game doesn't keep track of them for you enough, at least not in an easily accessible way. You won't know which ones you have unless you jot down notes or until after the very end of path A at which point the rat'll tell you. A number or set of icons as part of the user interface would have helped-having to rush through the Thanatos scene to check feels a bit clunky. You'll also need to explore most of the game's dead-end paths and run through at least a good chunk of each character's route to collect them all; this is fine for completionists like me who plan on doing everything anyway but a bit of a helping hand for those of us who are less inclined would have been appreciated. A synopsis or timeline that keeps track of which paths you've taken and which you've yet to explore would have been handy, both for refreshing people on where they are in the story and for knocking out missing medals.

Hot chip and lie: This is going to come across as harsh but I need to get it off my chest. I don't care about Hoss. His personal struggles never once resonated with me and I couldn't have been less interested in his weeb antics or his lying superficial pretty-boy arse. If there's one character where "I just don't get it", it's definitely him. Don't take this too seriously-it's based entirely on my own overly-opinionated personal preferences. And with that, I think I'm done. Sorry if I came across as overly critical or petty but keep in mind I'm not here to demean anyone-game development is an incredibly difficult job and I don't mean to downplay the amount of planning and effort that went towards Password. Truth be told I want to see the game succeed and be the best it can be-as silly or dramatic as it might sound Password does hold a special place in my heart and I happened to be exposed to it at just the right point in life. I'll be hoping for its success and wishing Grizz all the best for the future. And of course, thank you for reading.

[bustyasianbeautiespod]

Episode 104 Transcript: Endings Are Hard, But Then Again, What Isn’t

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello, it's Grey.

C: Hello, it's Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show many, many times...

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian! For this episode, we do have a very special one, obviously. [C laughs] It’s 5.22: "Swan Song," written by Eric Kripke and Eric Gerwitz, directed by Steven Boyum. I'm surprised it's a Steve Boyum edit. Or director.

C: Yeah, it's usually a Robert Singer situation.

G: Usually, it's fucking Robert. I guess it's fucking Steve this time. Nice one.

C: Steve, who directed "The End" and "The Song Remains the Same."  Both pretty good episodes.

G: Yeah. This episode, obviously, is good. [laughs]

C: It's pretty good.

G: It's pretty good. For a long time, I really pushed back against the idea that Supernatural should have ended in Season 5. The pushback comes from the thing that I still do believe, that Supernatural as an experience is the entire show. Supernatural as an experience does have to include Season 9 at the very least, you know?

C: R- Season 9?

G: Yeah, for me, Season 9-

C: The one that made you quit? [G laughs]

G: No, Season 11 is the one that made me quit. Don't lie to the Internet.

C: Wait. I thought, was it- I thought it was- Okay. Yeah. 'Cause I was like, "It was a season where Cas was super miserable." [G: Yeah, Season 11.] But he's super miserable in a lot of seasons. [G: Yeah.] Season 11, he was miserable because of Casifer?

G: Yes. Or like, he wasn't in the season. He was only half in the season because the other half, he's like, in his own brain, imprisoned by Lucifer in his body.

C: Yeah. You made it through Season 7, though.

G: Yeah. But the thing is like, there's like, different kinds of miseries, and I think the Season 11 misery was like, specifically hard-hitting for me. That's why it made me so miserable. [C: Yeah.] Versus like, Season 9, where it was miserable, but like, Cas was like, he believed in himself, [both laugh] and he was like, trying, versus in Season 11 when he was just so depressed and miserable, and I was like, "Well, that sucks! I'm gonna stop watching the show!" That's not true. I watched until Season 12, but I've lost heart. I was just holding on for the bit. [laughs] That's irrelevant. Now, I think I understand the idea of like, "It should have ended in Season 5." Supernatural, the experience, should have gone on, and it did go on, and that's like, the crux of it, that it did go on. But Supernatural, the story that they set out to tell, yeah. This is it. [C: Yeah.] And Sam should have not come back, and this should have been it. It is actually a very good conclusion to many of the things Supernatural was trying to tell. I mean, I'm speaking so much. What are your thoughts, opinions, violent reactions, etc?

C: I really don't have much. I just sat for 42 minutes. And I was like, "Okay. TV." [laughs]

G: Aw, really? [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] I was really into it, I think maybe because of the throwback of it all or something. Yeah, I mean, a lot of the things that charmed me with it are like, the things that when I first watched this, I didn't really think about or consider [C: Right.] or really internalize. And now I'm like, older, and I've had more experiences in life, and it's like, "Wow! It means something different!" Just like "New Partner" by Palace Music from that one Anthropocene Reviewed episode.

C: Yeah. It's a pretty good song.

G: Well, what did you know about this episode before going in?

C: Sam has to drink a bunch of jugs of demon blood so that Lucifer can possess him.

G: Which we don't even see. [laughs] Kind of wild. [C: Yeah.] Like, they really DGAF about this now.

C: Yeah, yeah. Dean drives over to where the final battle is gonna take place to be with Sam because he wuvs him. Sam has flashbacks about toy soldiers and shit in the Impala, which causes him to be able to take back control and jump into the pit with Adam. Before that-

G: Yeah. On SPNblr, they put a Phoebe Bridgers song over it, and they're like, "Wow! It fits perfectly!" but I hate Phoebe Bridgers so like, I don't give a fuck. I just wanted to bring it up because I thought you would maybe care.

C: I think I've probably seen that video. [G: Yeah.] Was it with "I Know the End"?

G: Yes, I think so.

C: Before that, Lucifer explodes Cas with his brain, but Cas comes back and heals Dean, who's bloody and kneeling on the floor, and Dean asks if he's God. Dean promises Sam that he'll go and have a normal life with Lisa, [G: "Go have a normal life!"] and also Cas brings him back soulless, and Chuck smirks and is revealed to be God for real for real. [G laughs]

G: [laughing] I'm laughing so much at my own joke, and it's so not funny. You didn't even laugh.

C: You just said, "Go have a normal life," but with some emphasis on certain words?

G: [laughing] Yeah, well. I think I'm going through something [both laughing] completely unrelated to this episode. Okay, yeah. I mean, that's pretty much the whole episode. Was there anything that you saw, and you were like, "Oh! Didn't know that." or "Oh! That surprised me!"?

C: Um... no. [G: Not really. Okay.] I think I didn't know about the Chuck narration framing device being throughout the episode.

G: Oh, really? That was always something that I really liked about this episode. I quite liked it. I did find at the end that it kind of falls apart, the idea that Chuck is like, writing the book or a book when he starts explaining the themes and motifs to you. [both laugh]

C: Like, "They died for family."

G: "It's for famiwy!" But yeah. [laughs]

C: Like, was it, though? Like, it was, but was it? [G: I don't know.] I mean, I don't really see how Sam, jumping into the pit was for family.

G: I did also think about the fact that he was like, "Oh, the thing about endings is everyone's gonna be pissed at you no matter what, and like, there's always going to be plot holes and stuff." And it's like, this is not like- Like, you can just fix those things, I think. [C laughs]

C: You don't have to do it.

G: It's just so fascinating to be watching this now, knowing how Supernatural will eventually end, [C: Bad.] which is that it's going to be a highly controversial, honestly godawful finale. And it's like, yeah, well, that sucks. This one was good, though, so, end of an era. Honestly, I feel so old is how I feel watching this episode. I'm like, "I've been a Supernatural fan for so long. I have been doing this podcast for what feels like just a blip of my life, but it's also been quite a while!" [C: Yeah.] I don't know. I feel a bit haggy, as people would say. [C laughs] We're one-third of the way. [C: Yes.] Have you thought about that? [C: Yes.] Yes. We've already gone through two universities Zoom rooms. [C: True.] And we'll go through maybe a bit more. Let's see. That's actually why you need to go to grad school.

C: I need to get into grad school so I can have a Zoom Business account.

G: It's not for literally any other reason other than to have a a university account on Zoom. [C: Yeah.]

-

G: We start the episode. It's "Carry On, My Wayward Son." And I will admit-

C: It's not good.

G: - it does get to me. [C: Oh.] No!

C: I thought you were gonna admit that this "Then" sequence is like, not good in any way.

G: I mean, the "Then" sequence was fine. I don't think it's particularly good or bad. I think it's whatever.

C: I don't think they had any themes or motifs in it. [G laughs]

G: Yeah, exactly. I mean, they were trying to do like, family, I think.

C: It was a summary at best.

G: Which is- "They were trying to do family, I think" is like, the thesis of Supernatural.

C: How was it family? It was just them killing a bunch of things to music.

G: They like, hug, and they're like, "Wow, we're brothers." They don't actually say that. They just hug. The brothers part is implied. [C laughs]

C: The hugging brothers, yeah.

G: Anyway, I do think "Carry On, My Wayward Son" is something. I don't know.

C: Yeah, it's a song that exists. That's what it is.

G: No, I mean, I like that there's a Supernatural song. I do. And I know that I'm speaking to the choir or maybe I'm speaking to the guillotine crowd, [both laugh] but like, I love Supernatural. And it's nice that it has things to it. [both laughing] Which is the bare minimum. The bare minimum of a show-

C: Yeah, okay. Having an unofficial theme song is a way to have the show stick in your mind and imbue some things with significance. Sure, yeah.

G: Yeah. You know, sometimes, you'll meet a Supernatural fan, and you'll have nothing whatsoever in common in thoughts, beliefs, values, etc. [C laughs] But you both are affected by this song in ways inexplicable, so I think that's fine.

C: Yeah. [laughing] Remember that time [G: What?] you said Dean's sex dream had two women in it, so the song should have been "Cherry Pies" instead of "Cherry Pie"? [G laughs] There are two sons in Supernatural. I think the song should be "Carry On, My Wayward Sons." [G screams] And in some ways, there's five brothers in Supernatural, which makes it even more important that it should be "Carry On, My Wayward Sons."

G: [laughing] Yeah, exactly. It should have been- we need to change the rock and roll music genre as a whole. And the two ways we're gonna do is to change "Cherry Pie" to "Cherry Pies" [C: Yeah.] and "Carry On, My Wayward Son" to "Carry On, My Wayward Sons."  "Carry On, My Wayward Children," you know? Gender neutral.

C: Yeah. Supernatural doesn't have anybody who's like the first sister, though. [G: Yeah, this is true.] Charlie, maybe?

G: But she's like a sister that Dean never had, so Dean doesn't have her as a sister. [both laughing] I don't know. Why is it that there's no sis- [laughing] What happened to all the sisters in Supernatural? [both laughing]

C: Who knows?

G: Who knows?

C: Jo?

G: Yeah, she died. They all got pushed out by the band Kansas is what happened. [C: Yeah.] The "Then" sequence is whatever. I just like talking about the the song.

C: [laughing] I just remembered how [G: What?] the jokes about Cas murdering the band Kansas before the finale, so that they could form at the planned party in the finale in Heaven?

G: [laughing] Supernatural is kind of a bad show.

C: I'd watch a miniseries slasher spinoff where Cas kills the band Kansas.

G: You know what? I would actually think I'd watch a documentary of what happened in the Season 15 writers room and production team of Supernatural. [C: Yeah.] I think I would be curious, and I would want to watch it. [C: I don't think it's big enough-] Release the tapes, or whatever. Isn't that a thing? Like, people were like, there's a-

C: They were saying that to Jackles about the Destiel confession, yeah.

G: Yeah. So true. Release the #tapes or something. I think it's #ReleaseTheTapes. Also, I can stop making hashtag jokes. They're like, not funny. [C laughs] But you know. We start the episode, as you said. And we continue it, as you said, with a voiceover from Chuck. And he is- this is like, him typing on his computer, and he's writing the show or writing this part of the book. It is always so fascinating to me the idea that like, every episode is a book. I mean, I suppose, whatever. It's like Nancy Drew or something.

C: Yeah. His voiceover is over some grainy footage of like, a car manufacturing plant. He says that there was like, a really famous car that rolled off the line at a plant in Jamesville, and three days later, there was another car that no one gave a fuck about, but it was, in fact, the most important car- no, the most important object in the universe! And this car is the Impala. He says that the first owner was an alcoholic with two ex-wives and spent-

G: - Sal Moriarty, which is an On the Road reference.

C: Ah. Yeah, that's right, that's right, 'cause-

G: I tried to read that book, you know?

C: How was it?

G: I didn't finish it. It was okay. I didn't finish it. Yeah, there was one scene- there's only one thing I remember from that book, which is that Dean Moriarty, he was like, the suave lover boy or whatever. They visited a friend who is so proud that he bagged a hot lady as a girlfriend. [C: Okay.] And so they're like, sitting down, and he's like, bragging about his hot girlfriend, and then Dean is just like, in the corner, like, bored or whatever. And then, as they are about to go, like, the group of friends, he turns to the girlfriend, he points to his watch, and he symbols 3, as in with his hand. And then he comes back later at 3 PM, and they have sex. [laughs] [C: Okay.] That's the only thing I remember. Maybe it's a wonderful book, but you know, I don't know, 'cause I didn't finish it.

C: Yeah. It inspired Supernatural. How good could it be? [G: This is true.] Apparently, on weekends, he would drive around, giving Bibles to the poor, and then after that the car ended up, at Rainbow Motors, which we saw in 4.03. It shows the flashback of John buying her-

G: Buying it, yeah.

C: - and Dean advising him to do so. "That's where the story begins and where it ends."

G: You know, they tried to do this thing where they're like, "Oh, where it begins is where it ends" by like, also putting it in Stull Cemetery in Lawrence, and it's like, what's this corny- Like, it's so funny to me that it's like, "Oh, this is where it begins and where it ends," and by "it" they mean like, the Apocalypse. And it begins in Lawrence, Kansas [laughing] 22 years ago or whatever? I don't know. It's kind of stupid, honestly. But okay, slay.

C: Yeah, I did groan when he said that the Impala was the most important car - no, object - in the universe. Like, yeah, I guess it stopped the Apocalypse. Well, why couldn't you say that toy soldier was the most important object in the universe? There are many things involved in that that were an important thing in the universe.

G: I do think there is like a- I feel like they missed a beat a little bit where they're trying to say that like, it's important because it was love and like, [C: Yeah, and their home.] how, you know, Sam and Dean saved the world because they loved each other, and they saved the world because they loved this car. And you know, and it's like, stuff like that. But the way the framing is like, "Oh, it's the most important. It's where it all began. It's the most important thing. Sam and Dean are the most important people." And it's like, okay, so are they important because of a fundamental importance? Or are they important because they love things and each other? Like, what is it?

C: And also, the little interlude where he's like, "Lucifer doesn't care what car they drive." It kind of came out of nowhere, and I don't think they really brought it home in any way.

G: Actually, I like that line. I would disagree with you. [C: Okay.] What do you mean they didn't bring it home, though? I'm interested in that.

C: I get what they were trying to do. It's like, "Lucifer doesn't love" [laughs] or whatever. [G: Yeah.] But like, I don't know. Whatever. Who cares? [laughs] is what I feel about that. And also, he does in the scene with Michael, I think, so, I don't know about that.

G: You know what? That entire portion, I was thinking, "How the fuck are we- like, Crystal and I, gonna talk about this?" [C: Yeah.] It's such a weird scene, and I have no idea what they were trying to do, really.

C: "Let's not fight, pwease!"

G: "Let's not fwight!"

C: It's like, okay, well, maybe they should negotiate the the stuff where you're starting the Apocalypse if you're gonna be doing the "let's not fight" thing. Is it just he leaves, and you continue ending the world? What are the terms?

G: Yeah. I think what they were trying to do there is that like, Lucifer thinks he knows everything about Sam and Dean, and he does, but like, he doesn't understand what those things mean. So like, he knows that they have this car but like, he doesn't care, and he doesn't consider that this is something they care about and can change the trajectory of their lives forever. So yeah. I think that's what I was trying to do, and I like that. And I think I also like that- I mean, it was revealed to us. But like, the things that make the story of like, the Lego bricks and the toy soldier, like, these are things that we're not privy to in the story. Like, we are privy to it now, but it implies a larger, grander life for Sam and Dean that we are not privy to, and yeah, I think that's the point of it. The existence of their life outside of this story. And I think that's what makes this episode so charming. It's like, yeah, they're like, we are told all of these things, but at the end of the day, there are things that we just won't know or won't understand. And that's pretty cool!

-

G: We are now in the salvage yard, and they have a heart-to-heart where Dean tells Sam that "Yeah, you can do- like, I'm in with your plan." And Sam asks like, "Okay, so you're gonna let me say yes now?" And Dean says, "No, I'm not gonna let you do anything. You can choose what to do. If it's what you want to do, then it's what you want to do, and I'll back you up."

C: Yeah, which is nice. I did like this line. [G: Yeah.] And he cuts it with a joke where he says, "You're a grown- well, overgrown man," which feels right. [G: Yeah.] I feel like he would need to make a tall joke in order to get through these sentences.

G: Yeah. And this part, it did get to me. Whatever. [C laughs] It always gets to me when they do this like, "You're my little brother!" [laughs] bullshit.

C: They did this four episodes ago. Like, if he just stopped there, it'd be fine. When he kept talking, I was like, "You did this four episodes ago."

G: I think it's because this is the episode where we see it in action. Like, Dean always says this shit. He always says like, "You're my little brother" or whatever. [C laughs] But like, this is the episode where we see that. Like, we see him, I don't know, staying with Sam in there and like, telling him that, like, "I'm here. It's okay."

C: Wait, this speech isn't "You're my little brother." This speech is "I've always treated you like my little brother in a way that denied you autonomy, so I'm gonna stop."

G: Uh, yeah, you're right. So I'm talking about scenes from later on. [laughs]

C: - that are completely unrelated to the thing he's saying right now.

G: No, I think- I think- I don't know. I think there's just something to Dean's character where, okay. So like, ugh, I'm gonna get emo, whatever the fuck. [both laugh] But you know, the concept of Dean as a character who took care of his little brother is, of course, very prominent in the show. I don't know. I think when I was younger, I didn't really understand it, mostly because when I was youngerm I was the youngest in our family, so I didn't have like, a little sibling, and so I always thought of it as like, you know, it's the same deal. Like, I have older siblings. I get it. But I do think it is like, such a different experience to have a person in your life that you think of as someone you take care of, and I think that is something that I have taken for granted in terms of Dean's characterization. Like, I do think it's something. And like, you know, in this scene, he talks about how he thinks it's his job to take care of Sam because Sam's like, not a baby anymore. So that's like, that shouldn't be their relationship anymore. But yeah, I don't know. I think Dean- like, if Sam and Dean, like, Sam and Dean, I don't know. I think the problem with their dynamic is that Dean thinks of himself as Sam's parent, but Sam wants Dean to be his older brother, which, those are like, very different things, right? [C: Yeah.] And I mean, it's difficult for them because they have a complicated childhood. Yeah, I just think, like, I don't know. There's this one poem that I came across a while back, and it's something about how like, this older father talking to his son, and the son- the poem describes his son as like, having a receding hairline, so he's also old now. And he tells his son, like, "Oh, calm down on the bread because they have big portions here. You don't want to get full too fast." And the kid turns to his dad and goes, "Are you really like, telling that to me? Like, I'm like, an adult or whatever. It's such a funny thing to say to an adult. You say that kind of shit to children." And then the poem goes like, "Sometimes, when we're walking and there's a curb, I still like, reach out for your hand." And like, yeah. I feel like that is kind of like Sam and Dean’s dynamic. You know, whatever. Whatever. Whatever. [laughs]

C: You're allowed to have feelings even if I don't.

G: Yeah, that's true. Well, yeah, it gets to me. I don't know. It's not gotten to me before in the past, I think, because I just it wasn't something I could connect with, but yeah.

C: [laughs] You couldn't couldn't with it four episodes ago when he said literally the exact same words?

G: No, I just- no, I just- well yeah, I couldn't, because it wasn't placed in the context of like, what happens later in this episode or at least not so directly. Yeah. I think here's a lot to Dean's insecurity about like, "Oh, I love Sam so much, and I have dedicated so much of my life and my mental energy and everything to taking care of this 'kid.' And to Sam it's like, nothing." But like, I think that is the dynamic of a parent and a child a lot of the time. And so, yeah. I've been thinking about that with Sam and Dean.

C: What is "to Sam, it's like nothing" mean?

G: To Sam, he wants to get out of here. His vision is to be separate from Dean and etc. And I think, you know, the idea of like, "This is not a person who's like, not my responsibility anymore." is something that every parent has to go through eventually, right? But like, I think with Dean, it's difficult, because he's not Sam's parent. He is four years older than Sam, something something child development, something something blah blah blah, [C laughs] but also, I think when it is apparent, I think even when you're older, there is still the idea of like, "This is a person who is supposed to give me guidance even if I am a person on my own, etc etc. My parent is still here to give me guidance." And because Sam and Dean, their relationship didn't transcend to that dynamic because they are not father and son, they're brothers, that's the crux of why their relationship is so complicated and difficult. And I- I feel for it, you know?

C: So you feel like it's Dean thinking himself of himself as Sam's parent that caused all the hurt over Sam wanting to leave?

G: I think it's that he is like, he is conflating those relationship roles, I think, is the reason. Like, he wants a peer, he wants a friend, he wants a brother, but at the end of the day, Sam, their dynamic is so parental, often so parental, that it just- it's difficult for it to work out that way.

C: Okay. Sure. I feel like- [laughs] I mean, in my experience, parents like it when you go to college. [laughs] No, but I guess- I don't know. I feel like, yeah, okay, I think what you mean about the conflating makes sense. He has the feeling responsible for Sam part, and then the brother and friend part of like, "Let's stick togethah forevah," [G: Yeah.] so that's what causes the problem.

G: Yeah, like, he wants to be BFFs with Sam, but also, he thinks of himself as someone who raised the kid. And those are like, difficult concepts to combine together. Yeah.

C: Yeah like, the raising makes him feel like Sam owes him something like, obedience or companionship?

G: Yeah. Yeah. [C: Yeah.] And it's difficult to let go of those dynamics, I suppose. Well yeah, I mean, it does get to me.

C: They had four years to get over it, I think. [laughs]

G: Well, he had two years because the Supernatural timeline is fucked up, but yeah.

C: Right. They may have talked at college for the first two years, or that could have just been a script mistake.

G: I don't know. It's something that I think about because- I mean, whatever. I think I talk about my siblings a lot this show, but I do have like, a younger sibling who's a kid. Like, an 8-year-old.

C: Yeah. Quite a different age difference than Sam and Dean.

G: Of course. But like, I also think about like, the concept of like, you know, being a parent versus being a sibling and like, how we ought to- how do you do that. And like, with Sam and Dean, obviously, as I keep on saying, Dean is just four years older than Sam. And like, I don't know, I was thinking about- Sorry, I'm just rambling. [laughs] [C: No.] Well, I was thinking about way back, we had an episode where there was like, something homophobic that Sam says to Dean, and you went, "Yeah, it sucks that he says this, but this is just how they talk, and I'm assuming Dean started it when they were kids." And I think at the time I was like, "Yeah, you're right." But like, I gave it a little bit of a think, and I'm like, "Wait, Dean's also a kid." [laughs] [C: Yeah?] You know, that's the thing about them. It's like, I think also that's why maybe it's also difficult for Sam to hold Dean accountable. Like, he can't find it in himself to think of Dean as somebody who has caused him hurt or whatever, because it's like, well, Dean was a child, also. And I'm sure that adds even more complexity on how Sam specifically thinks of his situation.

C: Did Dean cause him hurt when they were both children?

G: No, I just mean like, they have, like, a messed up dynamic and I feel like if you have a parent you have a messed up dynamic with, you're able to be like. “Well, they were an adult, and they should have known better than to be a person who tries to be best friends with their kid who they're also raising, and now, I don't know, like, etc etc. They're finding it difficult for me to go to college or whatever." [laughs] But like, with Dean, it's like, Dean was also a kid.

C: I mean, Dean was 22 by that point, but yeah. [laughs]

G: My point is like, the development. [C: Okay.] Like, yeah, he was 22 at the time, but like, [C: The development of the dynamic that led to that.] the dynamic started when they were kids, etc. It's like, when you're an adult parent, you have the benefit of [laughs] not being a kid when those dynamics start.

C: Yeah. Dean asks Sam if this is really what he wants, and Sam says that "I let him out. I've got to put him back in." And Dean goes like, "Okay, that's it, then." So like, it's like, a personal responsibility/guilt thing, I suppose, is how they're establishing it. So then there's the title card, and there's a scene implies that they've bled out a bunch of demons. Bobby asks if Dean's okay, and Dean says, "No." And they look through some newspapers, and there are a few omens around, but the one that stands out to Dean is a [G: Detroit.] temperature drop in Detroit, which is where Lucifer said that Sam was going to say yes in "The End." So then they start driving there. Cas is asleep in the back seat, and he looks adorbs.

G: Yeah, [laughs] Dean says, "He's so cwute!" [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] And he is, so it's fine. And it is fine even if he's not. I just find it so fascinating that like, [laughs] the way they frame this scene was Dean being like, "Aw!" And Sam going, "Okay, loser."

C: "He's dying, Dean."

G: [laughs] "Maybe have some sensitivity to the fact that he's losing his powers, Dean." [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] Kind of true. Kind of real. I think if Sam listened to our podcast, where every single time Cas goes into heat, we're like, "Aww, Cas!" he would be like, "You guys should kill yourselves or something." Sam wouldn't say that. But maybe he would. Maybe he should, even.

C: They're talking about Detroit. Dean has a bad feeling about it because of the predestiny, and he's also worried that Lucifer knows about the rings. [G: Yeah.] And Sam goes like, "Dean, like, serious talk time. You know I'm not gonna come back after I fall into a big hole." And Dean’s like, “Yeah, I know.” And Sam goes, “Okay. So you have to promise me something.” And Dean's like, “Oh, yeah, of course, anything!” [G laughs] And Sam says, “You have to promise not to try to bring me back.” [G laughs]

G: Dean go, "What?"

C: Dean is shocked.

G: He's shocked and upset that Sam said this.

C: Yeah, which I do like. [G: Yeah.] Sam's like, "I'm not coming back," and he's like, "Yeah yeah yeah, of course I know that." And he's like, "And you're not gonna try to bring me back?" And Dean's like, "What. the fuck. is wrong. with you?"

G: [laughs] Exactly.

C: But yeah, I don't know. It's nice that he had all of this like, turmoil and stuff, and also the entire time, he didn't even consider that like, he wouldn't be trying for the rest of his life to bring Sam back or whatever. [G: Yeah.] He was this upset, and he didn't even think it was gonna last that long, or it would last that long but like, the whole time, he'd be trying to make it not. So yeah, Dean's very upset and saying that he didn't sign up for that because Sam's gonna have such a bad time in Hell.

G: Yeah. Which I did- I think, like, I don't know. The thing about Supernatural is kind of like, it kind of really ignores a lot of like, Dean's Hell situation. Like, he did go to Hell for couple of months- or no, forty years. [laughs] I don't know why I said couple months.

C: It was a couple months on Earth. It was forty years in Hell. You weren't wrong.

G: Yeah, yeah. And so like, yeah, I feel like this is like a- not like a callback to it, but like a thing for Dean to consider that I have forgotten also. That like, yeah, Sam is gonna suffer, and Dean is going to have an acute understanding of that suffering.

C: And Sam has an understanding of like, your brother being dead long-term [G: Yeah.] and sort of having to give up on bringing him back. [G: Yeah. Aw.] So yeah, they're both talking from experiencing what the other is about to go through, and that's nice. That's fun. At least Sam had a trial run. He had “Mystery Spot.” Dean's trial run was just the end of Season 2, and that was like, for two days. Yeah, Sam says that it's too risky to try to get him out of the Cage given that Lucifer will also be in there. He says that Dean has to do it, and that what he should do afterwards [both laugh] is find Lisa, [G: Yeah.] "pray to God she's dumb enough to take you in," and then have a normal life where he goes to barbecues and football games.

G: He makes Dean prommy! [C: Yeah, he does.] You know how like, there are people who are like, gay Dean truthers. [C: Uh-huh.] This is the one concession I will make. Like, I understand why you think that with this whole Lisa situation.

C: Huh. 'Cause it feels like he- 'cause the point is that he didn't go there because he really wanted to?

G: Yeah like, he went there because he's trying to live up to Sam's expectation of a normal American life or whatever, and-

C: He also went there of his own volition against Sam's will in 5.17.

G: Oh yeah, he did say, "Whenever I think of a future, blah blah blah, [both laugh] I think of you guys."

C: Yeah, that was all him, baby.

G: Yeah, maybe Dean is bisexual, as I have always previously believed and continue to believe. Sorry, gay Dean truthers.

C: And maybe he's straight as I have always- [G laughs] I don't actually believe that. [G: Yeah.] This Lisa fixation is- I mean, that's just the writers being like, "That is what is easiest for us to do." Also, I'm sure just knowing that Dean loves Lisa was helpful for Sam as a, you know, "I don't have to think that- I mean, I care about his well-being, but I am glad I get to offload this onto somebody." But also, Bobby is like, there.

G: There was Bobby, in fact. And later, Sam does tell Cas to take care of these two or something. [laughs] [C: Uh-huh.] Incredibly funny.

C: Yeah, he was just trying to cover all of his based. Yeah. Such a good scene. Deanlisa and Cobby endgame for the world.

G: [laughing] He was like- Maybe Sam was like, "Yeah, maybe Dean is gay. [C laughing] So like, just in case, I'm gonna tell Cas to take care of him or something."

C: Yeah, yeah. Cover all the based.

G: Yeah. It is so fun to me that Cobby is just a duo this episode! [C: Yeah.] Like, everything that they do, they do together, and they can't- I mean no, they have this conversation in the car with Cas in the backseat. That's the only exception. Cas didn't ride with Bobby. But later on-

C: Yeah, he rides with Bobby to Stull Cemetery, yeah.

G: Yeah, later on, they're together. And then like, when Dean calls Chuck, Bobby and Cas were like, hanging out. And then when Dean is like, "I'm gonna go!" they go from some side of the road towards Dean, and they're together! It's so cute. Cobby is real.

C: Yeah, it is cute. I do feel a bit Rufus-baited, though. I thought he was at least gonna be in the montage at the end just because [G: Yeah, we have Rufus this season.] we have Bobby on the phone multiple times this season, and he goes, "And by the way, I'm on the phone with my best friend Rufus!" so I don't know. It seems like he should have shown up in the montage at the end, but he did not.

-

G: The scenes are incredibly short. I didn't notice. I'm only feeling it now. We don't really- it makes sense because they're trying to culminate to a long scene, so. [C: Yeah.] They are now like, in the place where Sam is bound to say yes. Is that true? Is Detroit in Chicago?

C: In Detroit. No, I think the transcript is wrong. Detroit is in Michigan.

G: That's so weird. I always thought it was in Chicago too for some reason. Maybe this transcriber is Filipino. Shout-out! They're in there. They're standing in front of the building. And they're like, "Wow, this is it." And the first goodbye is between Sam and Bobby, where Bobby says, “I'll see you around, kid.” [both laugh] And Sam's like, "Okay, well, whatever." [laughs] And Bobby goes, “You fight him tooth and nail, okay? Like, keep swinging. Don't give an inch." And Sam says, “Yes, sir,” and I was like-

C: Fascinating.

G: My first thought honestly was like, "John is more of a father to Sam than Bobby is!" [laughs] [C: For real.] Like, Bobby doesn't deserve to be called the "yes, sir" because that's for his father that he has a terrible relationship with, [C laughing] and Bobby is not his father, and the relationship is bad, so it doesn't count.

C: For fucking real. I also felt this way.

G: [laughs] That's literally not your father.

C: Later, when Lucifer is like, “I'm your real family,” [laughs] I think I also started laughing. [G laughs]

G: He's like, "I'm like a father to you."

C: I don't know. Supernatural will just throw the word "family" around. Like, it means nothing. [laughs] Yeah, Lucifer's more of a fathers to Sam than Bobby.

G: It is actually impressive how much Bobby like, kind of DGAF about Sam. [C laughs] Like, what started out as a joke has become the reality of the situation, and that's his coworker.

C: Yeah, I mean, okay, I guess you could just view him as carrying himself- Like, maybe last episode, he was like, “I'm just respecting Sam's wishes to jump into that big hole. So that's why I'm having this talk with Dean, and I'm like, I do care that he's gonna die [G: Yeah.], but, yeah, I'm gonna put that aside to respect his plan [G: Yeah.] and his competence or whatever," but also, [laughs] like, does he care?

G: I think there is also the aspect of we can view it as he was talking to Dean in that scene. So we're not really supposed to see it as like, Bobby's perspective. We're supposed to see it as Bobby trying to convince Dean, which is of course different, so.

C: Yeah, but I think it says something that he thinks that Dean-

G: This is how Dean is gonna be convinced, yeah.

C: Yeah, that once he realizes that he's just doing this because he's afraid of losing Sam, he'll change his mind. Which I guess he did, so.

G: Yeah. I mean, me defending Bobby and saying that he actually does love Sam as a son is like- You know when you're in a debate team, and they put you in the homophobic side, [both laughing] so you have to fight for homophobia or whatever? That's how I feel defending Bobby. It feels like I'm defending homophobia. I think he doesn't love Sam at all. Well, whatever. [C laughing]

C: I think he does a little bit. I think he just doesn't care that much, or if he cared about Sam, he would care about him more in a "how does this affect Dean?" way before he thinks about how it affects Sam. [G: Yeah.] Which is the whole show also, so.

G: I mean, I think at some point Bobby tells Dean like, "You're my favorite." Or maybe I invented it in my head. Anyway, it's implied in the entirety of the show, [laughs] so we know it.

C: Yeah, he doesn't need to say it for us to know that it's true. [G: Exactly.] Bobby's a little teary as they hug, though. That's something.

G: It's true, it's true. And Sam does his next goodbye to Cas. [C: Ah!} And he goes, Sam goes, "Take care of these guys, okay?" And Cas, very solemnly, with his beautiful frowny face, goes, "That's not possible." [both laughing] Sam was like, a little taken aback. He's like, "Oh." And then he goes, "Humor me." And Cas goes, “Oh, I was supposed to lie. Oh, okay!” [C laughs] And then he puts on his most corny, tired, and played-out smile-

C: Yeah, he twists his mouth just to one side.

G: Yeah. And he goes, "Sure... Like, they'll be fine." [both laugh] And Sam literally tells him to shut the fuck up, which is kind of real of him.

C: Yeah, he's smiling, though. It's a nice moment.

G: It cheered him up, yeah.

C: Yeah. And they didn't even shake hands! Sam held out his hand for a handshake. He wanted a 4.07 callback, but Cas didn't even do it!

G: Cas didn't even grab Sam's hand with both of his hands, which is the most important thing. [C: True.] I do find it fascinating that Cas is like, barely a character this episode. [C: Yeah.] He's not even around. Yeah. And I don't know. I think it is fascinating that we end the show- and I mean, the thing is like, at this point, Cas is just some other guy in the show still. And like, you know, as I've said a million times in the past, later on in the show, he's going to be a lot more of a presence, and he's going to be- like, when he's in an episode, he's like, Mr. B Plot or Mr. A Plot, like, it's the entire episode, versus in Season 4 and 5, where he just shows up for short increments, and it’s quite irregular and stuff. And so I get it. I get that he's not that big of a deal yet this season, so like, he's not gonna be such a huge presence in the finale. I think what I want to say is that I am a little bit impressed that they have him here if that's the case. I don't know. I think I find it fascinating that he has been elevated to Bobby status so quickly. Yeah. That's it, really.

C: It'd be weird if he wasn't here.

G: Why would it be weird?

C: We've just been fairly involved in the whole Apocalypse fight thing.

G: Yeah, and they are- I think with him and Dean, they are trying to do kind of a foil situation with what happens to them at the end. [C: Mm.] Is that true? You know, I don't actually know what foil means.

C: Like, they're like opposites or like, contrasts in-

G: Yeah, okay, well, they are. And you know, Cas got everything that he wanted and he got everything back versus Dean, who lost everything. They were trying to do something with that. And when he was like, “Do you want peace or freedom?” that was something, too. [C: Yeah.] So like, yeah, you're right. There is like, a point, a storytelling point to Cas's presence. Love him! [C: Yeah.] We're gonna go to Season 6, and we're gonna be kind of miserable, but that's gonna be true for the rest of the show. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] And most of the show before, so I don't know.

-

C: So finally, it's down to Sam and Dean. So he goes over to the jugs of demon blood, and he asks Dean, "You mind not watching this?" And Dean walks away, and we the viewers also don't watch this 'cause it cuts to when he's done. [G: Yeah.] Can you believe in Season 4, Cas was like, “If Sam drinks too much demon blood, he'll become a monster and a killing machine!" and he literally chugs four jugs right now, and like-

G: He's normal, yeah.

C: He's normo. Like, he seems a bit more focused than usual. That's about it.

G: Yeah. I mean, also, like, I think he was just focusing on not vomiting at up, honestly. [C: Yeah, honestly.] What is the digestion timeline of demon blood?

C: Yeah no, I don't think you can- Yeah, how could he have drank that much without having to piss in between?

G: I mean later, when Lucifer's like, “No, I actually know what's happening,” and Sam makes that distressed face, and he's like, “I don't know what you're talking about!” he was actually trying not to vomit. That's why he was making that face. [C: For real.] Four gallons, though. At least. Concerning.

C: Concering. So yeah, Sam says, "Let's go," and Dean go into a building while Cobby are outside watching. So Sam shouts for the demons to come get them. They get taken upstairs where Lucifer is. We got another Chuck voiceover where he talks about Sam and Dean’s history with the Impala. There's a little army man figurine that Sam put in the ashtray. [G: In the back, yeah.] There are Legos that Dean shoved into the vents, and you can still hear them rattle when they turn the heat on in the car. And he says that even when Dean rebuilt the Impala, he made sure all those things were still there. I don't know how that's possible, but okay.

G: I also- I'm not sure how it's possible, but I find the idea endearing.

C: Yeah, maybe he had to go out and buy new Legos to cram in.

G: For real. And a new toy soldier that's not actually the toy soldier Sam used. He just had bad memory as a child.

C: Yeah. And he said that it was the blemishes that made the Impala beautiful. And then he says, "The devil doesn't know or care what kind of car the boys drive."

-

G: We go to Lucifer, and he does this thing where they're inside a room and it's like, it looks like it's freezing because there's condensation in the window, and then he like- I mean, when he breathes on the thing, there's like, something. And then he draws on the window. What Greek letter is this? It's psi?

C: I should know this.

G: Let's see. "Trident Greek letter." [typing]

C: I don't know if it is a Greek letter, you can like, style a phi-

G: It is. [C: Really? Let me check.] The Greek letter psi, the shape of a trident or pitchfork.

C: Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, you're right.

G: He could just be- Ah! Maybe he's just [both] drawing a pitchfork.

C: Because he's the devil.

G: [laughing] Because he's the fucking devil! [C: Yeah.] I was actually trying to figure out, what does psi mean? What is this? Because I was thinking he could draw the omega symbol so it could be like, the end, you know? But he's not gonna draw the omega symbol, and I feel like I would know if he drew the omega symbol, [laughs] honestly.

C: Yeah, I think people would be talking about this.

G: Yeah. Anyway, he's like, “Oh, yeah, it's cold. Sorry. Most people think I burn hot. It's actually quite the opposite,” which, you know, I think I've heard people talk about this as like, "Wow, so cool." I think it's whatever. [laughs]

C: I think I've heard that in the context of like, "The Cage must have been very, very cold," and I do think it's interesting to think about the psychological impact of just freezing and freezing for 200 years.

G: Yeah. Lucifer, his face is falling apart. He doesn't look- when was the last time we saw him, actually? [C: Um...] Was it really in “Abandon All Hope”?

C: I don't think so. Let me- He was in “Hammer of the Gods.” [laughs]

G: Oh my god, you're right!

C: Remember "Hammer of the Gods"? [both laugh] I try not to.

G: I try also not to. Was he already- did he already have, like, sores on his face at that time? [C: Yeah.] He did?

C: Yeah, I think he had them in "Abandon All Hope," too, [G: Really?] because he was like, "Sam, this isn't my true vessel. So that's why this is happening."

G: Ah, okay. Well, I think maybe they did a little bit more of it this episode or something.

C: Yeah, I think so.

G: Sam immediately is like, "I'm going to say yes." And then Lucifer is like, “Oh, excuse me?” And then Sam closes his eyes and squints a little bit, and then the two demons beside them, they like, explode. [C laughs]

C: By little light effects.

G: Yeah, they explode with light. They don't explode bloody like Cas later. Their head blows up like a bulb.

C: Yeah, but not in any way where [G: - it's cool, yeah.] any parts of it go anywhere. There's just a little light that explodes over their head, [G: Yeah.] and then they fall down intact.

G: Yeah. But yeah, and this person's like, "Damn, okay. You're for real, for real." And Sam says, "Okay, we understand. We just want the deal of the century. I give you a free ride. You keep me safe. You keep Dean safe. You bring back our parents." [C laughs] Hilarious. So fucking true.

C: So, okay, the implication is- Okay. So Lucifer ends the entire world. The earth is empty and burned to a crust, and then it's Sam, Dean, Mary, and John just standing there?

G: They don't end the world. Like, that's not the intention of the fight.

C: True, it'll just- things will- well, but also like, if Lucifer wins, all the demons are gonna come up onto Earth to hang out and presumably kill everybody.

G: Yeah, but like, Lucifer also hates the demons, so like-

C: That's true, that's true. So that's not actually part of his plan. He's going to kill all the demons, as Crowley thinks. [G: Yeah.] So like, what is the aftermath?

G: I have no idea. And I mean, obviously, Sam's bluffing, so it's not like this is something he put a lot of thought into, perhaps. [C: Yeah.] But Lucifer immediately is like, "Okay, can we  drop the act? I know that you have the rings." And Sam is like, "Oh, no, I'm gonna frow up!" Like, he looks so distressed, and he puts on his most like, "Oh, no! I'm going to pretend I'm not upset, but I'm so upset it's unreal!" voice, and he goes, "I have no idea what you're talking about!" [both laugh] And I understand that he's like, having the worst day of his life, [C: Yeah.] but yeah, maybe Sam should enter acting school or something. [C: Yeah, he should take a workshop.] Not because he's good, but because specifically because he's bad. Lucifer's like, "No, yeah, I know everything that's happening. It's pretty fun. Like, battle in your head. If you win, then you win. If I win, then I win. Let's do it!" And Sam is like, "Yeah, we don't really have a choice. No matter what, even if he knows, we can't do anything else." So he says yes, and there is a bright light that like, emanates from Lucifer, and then we cut to Bobby and Cas hanging out outside, and they see the light like, bursting out the window, which I thought was pretty cool. And yeah, back in the room, Dean is still there, and Sam is collapsed on the floor. And Dean tries to wake him or something, and then he also opens the portal. And, oh my god, there's a chant. That's what Death was talking about. [C: Yeah.] I thought Death just thought Dean was so stupid.

C: Didn't know how magnets worked. [laughs] Yeah.

G: Yeah. [laughs] But apparently, there's a fucking thing that they need to say. Sorry for insulting literally everyone last episode. [both laugh] Yeah. Dean throws it to the wall, and he does his chant, and then there's a hole in the wall just like the show. The variety show.

C: It's fun that the Cage doesn't actually go into.the ground.

G: Go down, yeah.

C: Like, yeah, like, that hole is completely just through a bunch of walls and then out into the air or some shit.

G: Sam kind of wakes up, and it's like, "Oh, it's Sam!" and he's like, "Oh, I can feel him! Okay, I need to jump now, because it's like, our only chance!" And then he goes to the portal, and he hesitates a little bit, and then he like, smirks. And then, you know, we realize that it's actually Lucifer! He turns around and tells Dean, like, "I'm actually Lucifer!" Then he gets the fucking Horsemen rings, and then he disappears, but for some reason, Dean has the rings later. No, Sam has! [C: No, Sam has.] He gets it from his pocket. You're right. And by "you're right," I mean me. [C laughs] Lucifer tells Dean, "I told you it was always gonna happen in Detroit, and it did." That is a fun thing. Lucifer disappears, and Dean's there. And yeah, Lucifer spares Dean, which he makes a point of mentioning to Sam later.

-

C: Right. We're over to Sam and Lucifer, and they're in like, some dark building, and there's some demons. They're standing in a circle. And Lucifer has a little monologue time or a dialogue time where he's looking in a mirror, and he's talking to Sam, but he also allows Sam to communicate. Yeah, so there's a mirror, and it's kind of broken, and in the mirror, it's Sam with his dialogue and expressions and things, and then, when we cut to the non-mirror view, then that's Lucifer, yeah.

G: Yeah. What do you think of this scene? I thought it was- I mean, obviously they had to do something to get Sam and Lucifer to talk. [C: Yeah.] [laughs] So we take what we can get, is how I feel about this scene. [laughs]

C: Yeah, I think it's fine. [G: Yeah.] Yeah, I don't know what else they would have done.

G: Yeah, that's how I feel too. I think it's a little bit corny, but like, whatever. It's what they ought to do.

C: Yeah. What's your assessment of Jared Padalecki's acting as Lucifer abilities?

G: I think it's fine. [C: He is fine.] I think in the Stull Cemetery scene, it's great. I think in these scenes, it's a little bit less good, but it could also just be that I have seen the Stull Cemetery scene so many times, so like, I just know- you know, I'm just more familiar with it or something.

C: Which part of the Stull Cemetery scene?

G: Like, the entire scene.

C: But like, including the conversation with Michael at the beginning?

G: Yeah. No, no, actually, the conversation with Michael was kind of stupid. I think I didn't really think about Lucifer's acting at that scene because all I could think of was like, "Wow! This conversation is so stupid!"

C: Yeah, you're like, "Look at these two fuckass guys in the middle of fuckass nowhere, [G laughs] and they're in the most fuckass guy outfits ever." [G laughs]

G: Yeah. The thing about it is like, I think they were trying to do like, "An apocalypse just looks like a normal day" or whatever. [C: Yeah, the mundanity of whatever.] The mundanity of it all. And it kind of works. It also is just kind of funny. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, like, they are so powerful, but it was just a dude running at a dude, and then the other dude running at a hole. [both laugh]

G: I think it's not the mundanity of the what it looks like, actually. I think it's just that their heart is not even into it. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, I don't think Jake Abel could actually convey the like, magnitude or gravity of like, having Michael in him.

G: And then also just like, the whole like, "Oh, I don't really want to do this, [C laughing] but I have to." And it's like, "Noo, but we have to!"

C: "I have to because of my daddy."

G: "I also don't want to do this, and you don't have to do it." And you know, it's like, you're going to fucking destroy the earth, and you don't even give a fuck. Like, your heart's not even into it.

C: Yeah. You've been doing a lot of stuff to lead up to this point, Lucifer. [G: Yeah.] Like, if you didn't want to do the fight, you could have also just not done the rest of it. [laughs]

G: Like, you know, like, I think so much of it is they're just dragging their feet. They're like, "Ugh, fine! We have to fight. Whatever." And it's like, you know. [laughs] It's like Staged Season 3? [both laugh] Should we mention that? But like, in Staged Season 3, how like, the entire show is about how they don't want to do the show anymore. That's what like, this Michael and Lucifer conversation sounds like.

C: There's a scene. Lucifer's thing is that he smirks, and Sam's thing is that he's upset. So he tells Sam that he's not the bad guy here, and Sam's like, "I'm gonna fucking kill you!" And Lucifer's like, "Who are you actually angry with? Me? Or yourself?" [laughing]

G: They're always trying to do this shit. [laughs] Like, what is this bullshit? "Are you actually mad at me?"

C: I feel like he's angry at Lucifer because of how he killed a bunch of people. [laughs] That's how I feel. [G laughs]

G: So real. "Are you mad at me, or are you mad at yourself because you can't stop me?" Like, I'm mad at you. [laughing] Like, what are you talking about?

C: "Dean, who really started the Apocalypse? Sam, who was completely led astray, or you, who didn't stop him?" [G laughs] [G: So true!] Supernatural said, "Inaction is action," and that part is true. Thank you, Supernatural, for these valuable life lessons. Yeah, also, Lucifer makes a Star Wars reference where he calls Sam "young Skywalker." And I don't know. It's whatever. Many people have said that it's annoying how much demons and angels reference pop culture throughout the rest of the show, and it fucking is. Like, why did you decide all of them talk like Dean Winchester?

G: I mean, it's the reason why Cas stands out, obviously, but also like, I thought what you were gonna say is that like, Supernatural is inspired by [both] Star Wars.

C: That's true. He did say that.

G: [laughing] Did you say "Star War"? Kind of true. Kind of real.

C: No. I think I said Star Wars. But I was about to say a sentence that had "Star War" in it, so maybe you just sensed that.

G: Yeah, what was the sentence?

C: "I've only watched like, five minutes of a Star War, and that's my entire experience with that franchise." [G: Yeah.] So I can't tell how much inspo was actually taken. I'm a little bit more okay with Lucifer making pop culture references because I feel like his thing is that he's like, just childish and annoying in like, a very mundane way. Like, I feel like the pitchfork on the condensed glass was also part of that. Yeah, he's doing a bunch of horrible things to people, and he doesn't really care, 'cause he's just having like, a very fun kids' show time in his head about it, yeah.

G: Childish understanding. So you think that's like, negative or positive? I missed-

C: No, I think that's an interesting way to do it. [G: Ah, okay.] That's why I'm more okay with her making references to like, pop culture, especially like, [G: Yeah.] pop culture that's [laughs] not very deep or whatever.

G: You know, later in Supernatural, at some point, that's how he tries to get Jack on his side. Like, he tells him, "We can go to the stars, like in Star Wars," and then he does like, a lightsaber motion.

C: Okay, that's a little bit annoying, honestly. [laughs] I'm imagining it, and it seems annoying.

G: No, I think it's Jack who brings it up. He's like, "Wait. Like in Star Wars?" [both laughing] And he's real for that. [C: Aw, yeah.] If you tell me to go to the US, I'll be like, "Wait. Just like in Supernatural?" and I'd go.

C: Yeah. You would want to go to a place that was like in Supernatural? [G laughs]

G: I just- I'm interested in the culture. You know how people are like, "I want to go to India because like-"

C: By people, you mean a very specific Robert Sean Leonard? [both laugh]

G: Does Robert Sean Leonard- what did he say? I'm gonna look up ideas for that. I always thought that was hilarious. But he was like, "Yeah, I want to go to India. I've been recently interested in the culture."

C: [laughs] "I've been really interested in the culture recently."

G: Yeah. And that's how I feel about the United States. [C: Yeah.] I'm really interested in the culture, and I don't want to do that city shit. I want to go to the fucking Wisconsins of the world.

C: [laughs] Yeah. I think they have good cheeses in Wisconsin.

G: Oh, he says, "I've been reading up a lot about it. It seems interesting." [C screams]

C: You know, it's more than the writers of "Hammer of the Gods" ever thought to do. [both laughing]

G: Yeah. I don't think any writer from "Hammer of the Gods" ever opened up a book about India.

C: But yeah, but I guess apparently Sam is meant to be just angry at himself or whatever. Which is fine.

C: I do think that it is fascinating- like, how they conclude this scene. Okay, let's go through the scene.

C: Okay, so the rest of the scene, he's been waiting for Sam a long time, and he tells Sam that he has to admit that he can feel exhilaration while he's being possessed because the two of them were made for each other. And he says, like, Sam always felt odd and out of place in his family. It's just 'cause he's gay, man.

G: Yeah, just like Luke Skywalker. No, Luke Skywalker is like, an orphan, I think. [laughs]

C: Well, he's also gay. I thought you were just talking about the gay part.

G: Yeah, his Chanel boots and everything.

C: He says, "Why shouldn't you have? They were foster care at best. I'm your real family." And Sam goes, "No! That's not true!"

G: "I'm your reaw famiwy." [both laugh] Yeah, I mean, I feel the thing is like, with Sam and Lucifer, it could be interesting, this whole thing, whatever. It's also just not handled well at all.

C: If they talked more before this.

G: Yeah. Like, they don't do much with it, and etc. And that's a bummer, because it's a theme that they keep on trying to harken back to like in the future. They will keep on doing this shit where Lucifer is like, "No, you're secretly grateful for me," or like, "No, you feel secretly connected to me" or whatever. And as the audience, you're supposed to think, "Is that true?" or something. I don't know. I didn't really think much of it until, you know, people started talking about it. So I don't know. Maybe I will think it in the future.

C: And he says that, "All those times you ran away, you weren't running from them. You were running towards me.” That's kind of a fun line.

G: Horrible!

C: No? What? [G: I mean, it's horrible-] It's horrible feelings-wise, which makes it a good line. [G: Yeah.] And then he says, “But I'll be good. I spared Dean. I'll bring your parents back. I want you to be happy.” And yeah, I think he does do well with the creep factor in this particular exchange. I don't know. The Sam and Lucifer relationship will continue throughout, and there's like, a rape element that becomes more and more explicit throughout the show as well, right? [G: Yeah.] Yeah. And I think that is a natural follow-up from all of this like, "I know what you want, admit it, blah blah blah." [G: Yeah.] Yeah, and also just the whole possession being sexual assault thing that they've established since Season 1 or 2. I don't know. I feel like we have all these scenes where it's like, "Sam, like, you know, deep down inside, there's something wrong with you, and like, you belong with Lucifer and demonkind and all that stuff." And I think the only place where we actually saw that in a way that felt like, Sam-driven instead of other people saying stuff and you're just supposed to go like, "That is how he really feels!" is “When the Levee Breaks.” And I don't- was that- He talks about feeling wrong the whole time when he was a kid, but I feel like the element of like, "And you feel right and whole with Lucifer, with demon blood," I don't think that was really-

G: Explored, yeah.

C: - explored in 4.21, and I feel like it needed to be in order for me to believe that part of Sam feels that Lucifer is his weal famiwy.

G: Yeah. And I think I think an interesting thing that Lucifer does is he- it's raining so hard, so I'm probably gonna have a hard time ending this part. [C: Aw, horrid.] But like, there's something interesting Lucifer does is he starts with the big things, and then he gets it smaller and smaller and smaller until it's true, and then he's like, "Ah, since that's true, the entire thing is true. Oh, you feel you were running towards me, and like, I make you whole, and I'm actually your true family, etc." And then, like, Sam says, “I don't want anything from you.” And then Lucifer is like, "Really? Not even a little bit?" And then later, when Sam kills all of the demons who are in his life, we are, I think, to believe that Sam feels kind of good about it. [C: Yeah.] And then, so now, Lucifer has established that this is something Sam did like, or did enjoy, and then now, it gets into Sam's head that like, "Wait. So all are all of those bigger things true?" when those things are like, not related, you know? [C: Right.] But because Lucifer connects them, that's like, where the whole manipulation thing comes in. I think it's like, really interesting, honestly. Like, I really think it's really interesting. Like, the way this conversation plays out where he he just goes from big thing to small thing and how like, that manifests into Sam- I don't know. It's a complicated- I think because this is one of the things that's Supernatural actually does deal with with complexity, I think for ways that I do not agree with, for reasons I do not agree with, but they do deal with it with some complexity. Like, the whole Lucifer and Sam situation. And so it is something that I feel like an extra something of care when talking about. Because like, a lot of the time, a lot of the other dynamics in Supernatural are pretty straightforward. [C: Right.] Versus this one where the things that Lucifer is doing are like, I think actual things that actual people in the world do or experience, and so it feels a lot more difficult to talk about. You know what I mean? [C: Yeah.] Yeah. So I don't know. I think I have kind of shared this kind of sentiment in the past. But how the Lucifer and Sam relationship plays out like in Season 7 in the visions that Sam has of Lucifer, and also in Season 13, those conversations are not really things I am incredibly excited to do [laughs] just because I feel like this is something that does need a lot more complexity of thought about things that are sensitive topics.

C: Right. He also describes the feeling that Sam feels as exhilaration [G: Yeah.], which I think is a good choice for manipulation because, like, all of exhilaration is like, you know, like, [G: Nervousness.] high heartbeat, nervousness, and it's very easy to say that someone's upset- [G: Mistake-] to say that it's exhilaration. [G: Yeah. Yeah.] And especially after killing a bunch of people that you kinda are angry at, that is probably something that you could think of yourself as feeling.

G: Yeah. I mean, Supernatural, honestly, yeah, they do do this. They provide Lucifer and Sam a interesting dynamic. I just don't think they like- just because Sam's characterization is always on the like, [laughs] like, they're always doing a terrible job at it, you know? And so I just- I don't know. I think I feel a little bit more dubious about what Supernatural is trying to actually tell us with scenes like this, just because historically, they have had- they have not had a good rapport with Sam's character. And that that is a little bit frustrating to me. It's a lot frustrating, honestly.

C: Yeah. So Sam says, "I don't want anything from you." And Lucifer goes, "Really? Not even a little payback?" And all the demons who are there, Sam starts to recognize them as people who have been throughout his life. There's like, an elementary school teacher. There's [G: Some guy.] his friend Doug, his prom date Rachel.

G: And it is kind of wild to me that, like, Rachel is in a gown. Like, everyone's-

C: Yeah, in a white gown.

G: [laughing] Rachel is in a white gown. You're in prom? A white gown? [C laughs]

C: Yeah, wait, is this meant to be her the prom outfit that she was in?

G: I think that is supposed to be the implication, that it's like a prom outfit. I think it's still stupid. I don't think that should be her outfit now as a demon who's walking around. But yeah, I think the implication is that is her prom outfit, in which case, terrible prom outfit. A white dress? I didn't go to prom. So maybe that's actually a wonderful dress.

C: I'm trying to remember what other people who went to prom have worn. I think some people do wear white. Yeah, he says, "Sam Winchester, this is your life," and that Azazel's gang has just been here the whole time manipulating him the whole time. "I know how you feel about them. Me too. What do you say you and I blow off a little steam?" Okay, wait, so he hates them because he just hates demons in general?

G: Yeah? No, no, no, I think it's because, you know, they're like, manipulating him and stuff.

C: No, I mean, Lucifer hates them. Like, when he says, "Me too."

G: Ah. Yeah, I suppose so. I think he does.

C: Okay, yeah. 'Cause I feel like he was maybe trying to frame it in like a "How dare they manipulate you since you were young. We hate them for the same reason."

G: "I'm the only one who can manipulate you!" [laughs]

C: Exactly, "Even though I told Azazel to go up and manipulate you!" I think he just hates them because he hates demons, but I think that he is trying to frame it to Sam like, "And because I want you to be happy and I'm trying to protect you or whatever, don't think too hard about why they were following you in the first place."

-

G: Dean, Cas, and Bobby are outside a like, TV store or whatever, and they're watching the television, just like, in Tian Mi Mi, or the movie Comrades: Almost Lovers, a beautiful movie. Go watch it. It's featuring Maggie Cheung, the most beautiful woman of all time. Cas is like, "Yeah, we're fucked. I don't know what to tell you." [both laugh] Dean is like, "What are we gonna do?" And he's like, "Let's just drink a fuckton and die."

C: Wait, [laughing] you missed when Cas says, "It's starting," and Dean says, "Yeah, you think, genius?" and [both] Cas goes, "You don't have to be mean!" [both laughing]

G: Yeah, he like, turns around a bit. He like, he moves his body away from Dean, he moves his head away.

C: [laughing] Yeah, it's so cute!

G: "You don't have to be mean!" So true. [C: It's so fun! Yeah.] After his alcohol comment line, Dean says, "Okay, Bukowski." And I think because of this this line, I tried to read a Charles Bukowski book. [C: Wow!] Yeah, I didn't make it. I don't think it's for me. [laughs]

C: I haven't read any Bukowski, so maybe it's for me, or maybe it's not for me.

G: Yeah, I think I don't like books that are... misogynistic. [both laughing] I mean, I don't even remember which Bukowski-

C: What a weirdo! You don't like books that are misogynistic?

G: No, but like, I feel like there are limits. Because, for example, I read a lot of Kurt Vonnegut, [C: Yes, I was about to bring that up.] and I think Kurt Vonnegut has a lot of misogyny in his books. I think because with Kurt Vonnegut, if you read his books one at a time, I think there is a- it becomes more swallowable. It's more palatable. Like, you can go like, "Well, that sucks that this is how women are written," but you can still turn the page, right? I think there are other authors where that's quite impossible to do. And I'm not sure if Bukowski is one of them, but there was a time in my life where every time I read a misogynist, I was like, "Let's not do this. I don't want to do this." Yeah. And also like, with Kurt Vonnegut, I think the reason why I have a very, very, very, very strong aversion to his other books other than the ones I read is because I just read the ones I read in sequence, so like, you know, all the misogyny is like- it's like, so obvious the patterns of it. So yeah.

C: I just skimmed a Charles Bukowski poem, and it was decent. So maybe. It also felt a little misogynistic, though. [laughs] But yeah, I don't know if Dean was referring to his books or his short stories or his poetry.

G: I mean, what are the- I think we we should have started doing a book recommendations in Supernatural, like, let's just keep a list. I think that would be a fun thing to do. Books mentioned in Supernatural. Books that are referenced in Supernatural. And for me, the number one is, of course, the Vonneguts, just because I am actually a fan. And then, I don't know. At some point Dean talks about Aesop, and Sam’s like, “Wow, you're a genius!” [laughing]

C: Yeah, Dean's talking about like, The Odyssey, and Sam's like, "Oh my god, what?"

G: At some point, someone calls him a beach read, and he goes, "Beach read? Lady, I'm Tolstoy," but that is also a thing that he says.

C: Oh yeah, I remember that. I'm incredibly annoyed by it.

G: Yeah. I just really hate when Sam and Dean say "lady" as like, a replacement for a name. Like, I think that's incredibly rude. And also, if anyone else says it, I also don't like it. [laughs] It's not just Sam and Dean. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, they should replace it with "ma'am." That would be fun.

G: I liked it when Sylvia Plath says it in one of her poems that starts, "Lady, your room is lousy with flowers," but that's my only exception, just like Paramore. Anyway, Dean calls Cas a slur. [laughs] [C screams] I asked prior to recording, I asked Crystal what the status of "sissy" as a slur is. I think it is a slur.

C: I said that I don't really think it is, but I think-

G: Different environments, different communities, yeah.

C: Yeah, I also- I don't know. I feel like the word slur, I don't always know what it means, because I feel like people use the word slur to mean different things, but yeah.

G: Yeah. Going to do linguistics blah blah blah in this one. But I don't know. I mean, obviously, the way it is used here is derogatory. [C: Yes.] And okay, so the line is, "You listen to me, you junkless sissy. We are not giving up." I think the combination of those words, "junkless" [C: Yes.] is like, obviously, it's trying to do something with regards to like, "You're unmasculine." [C: Mm-hm.] Yeah, I just- I don't know. Two episodes ago, we talk about how they say "fag" in Supernatural, but it's all obviously not used as a slur in the show. [C: Yes.] Like, the author maybe was like, "Haha!" Tongue-in-cheek, "Hehehe, we said it." But like, in the context of the show, if this was just a conversation that happened in front of me, I'd be like, "Yeah, that's not a slut." But here, like, it's so very obviously said with vitriol.

C: Derision, yeah.

G: Yeah. So, horrible! It did perk me up. I was like, "Oh, okay." [laughs] I think "perk me up" is not the word. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, I don't think it made your dick hard.

G: No, you know, like, my head was down. It rose up, so yeah. [laughs] Did you say "it made your dick hard"?

C: Yeah. [laughs] It perked you up. It made your dick hard.

G: [laughs] Is that what "perk you up" means?

C: It can mean "cheered up," but I think sometimes people also mean arousal when they talk about it. But yeah, I think "sissy" is often a term applied to gay men and trans women, and I think that the "junkless" aspect of it like, definitely touches on the latter some more.

G: Yeah. And again, I don't know. No, I mean, like, because of the way we talk about "fag" for example, it's like, it is a slur, but like, you know, it's used lovingly in many communities. And like, yeah, I don't know. Maybe that's true for this also, but doesn't make it not a slur, you know?

C: Yeah, yeah, I've heard some people self-identify using "sissy."

G: Yeah. Anyway, all of that. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] I was just surprised. And this is like, this episode was in 2010, so I think we also need to keep that context in mind, maybe? I don't know.

C: Maybe? I don't know what was acceptable to say.

G: I don't know the etymology of etc, yeah.

C: Yeah. I'm gonna check if this is the first time this word was used in Supernatural. Dean said it in 2.11.

G: Really? How?

G: He uses it as an adjective. He says that old school haunted houses have "fog, secret passageways, and sissy British accents." [G: Interesting.] [laughs] Interesting, yeah. I can see why that would pass us by, though. Like, I feel like it's not used as vitriolically as it is here.

G: Yeah. Well, I mean, [laughs] I think everything is a slut if you say it harshly enough. But also, that's not true. But like, this one. It's true for this one.

C: I think this one, because it has a history of being used to mock queer people.

G: Yeah. So Dean asks Bobby like, "Bobby, do you have any ideas?" And Bobby just goes, "Nope. We're going to fucking die!" And then we go back to Lucifer and Sam, and now there's like, multiple dead bodies on the floor.

C: Yeah, they really focus on Rachel because of the red blood stain on the white dress.

G: The red dress, yeah. And it's like, in the middle of her torso, too, and I kind of was like, "Is it in the lower abdomen, just like in every other other woman in Supernatural?" But I don't think it was. I think it was like, higher up in the torso. But yeah, Lucifer asked Sam, like, "Are you having fun yet?" And I think Sam looks guiltily, or something. Anyway, so we have another Chuck voiceover. And he says, like, "In between jobs, Sam and Dean would sometimes get a day, sometimes a week if they're lucky, and they would have just like, you know, free time. And they would use that time to make some money." And he says, like, "Sam used to insist on honest work, but now he hustles pool like his brother."

C: What was the honest work that he did for a day?

G: What jobs was Sam doing? I mean, you can like, do construction work for a day, I think.

C: Yeah, I think factories and shit sometimes will just hire people.

G: Factories, really?

C: Maybe? I don't know. That sounds right, but I don't know.

G: I don't think that's right, yeah. I think you need a rigorous health exam for that.

C: But construction work, you don't need to?

G: I don't know. I mean, I'm Filipino. I don't know about American life. But like, yeah. I mean, you can just show up to a house and be like, "I'm going to build you a cabinet," [laughs] and then you do it. I don't know. "I'm gonna fix your plumbing or something." [laughs]

C: Huh, yeah, perhaps. Maybe Sam was a scab. [G: Yeah, for real.] Maybe every single time he insisted on honest work, it was 'cause-

G: [laughing] It was completely dishonest, yeah. I mean, I think you would need- I think here, the requirements for any job, but also factory job specifically, it's like, you need a police clearance, and you need all of the tax bullshit, and then you need a health examination, including an X-ray, because they're checking that you don't have tuberculosis. [C: Mm.] So yeah, I don't think he can go in for that unless he has those ready. But then again, it's like, one day, come on? How's he even gonna get paid? Is it at the end of the day pay?

C: Cash, I guess?

G: Yeah, but they usually do that at like, the 15th and the 30th, I think.

C: Well, if it's a job position where everyone's expected to only be there for a day.

G: Are you sure that factory work you can do for a day?

C: I don't know if this is true. [G: I find it highly dubious.] I don't think that it's true.

G: What other jobs does Sam do? What is his honest work?

C: I don't know. Did he go around knocking on doors, asking if they wanted their lawn mowed? [both laugh]

G: "Can I mow your lawn?" What if he had a sickle? Maybe he was like, one of those guys who was like, "You don't actually need a lawnmower. You need a sickle."

C: I'm going on the website Labor Works USA, and they have partnerships with various companies that offer same day pay [G: Oh, that's cool!] and temporary work. Yeah. And the industries that they have listed are assembly and manufacturing, which does imply factory work, and then construction and food service - food service makes sense. Like, if someone needs like, an extra hand for catering or something.

G: Yeah, yeah. Oh my god, maybe Sam is a caterer!

C: Yeah, maybe so. Landscaping, machine operations, moving and package handling, packaging, site cleaning and waste removal, warehouse and distribution, and housekeeping and janitorial services. I do think you have to apply to join this like, organization, though, so they probably do vet you at some point. But maybe Sam did join, at some point, [laughs] an org that has partnerships with various temp jobs. Who knows? Yeah. Maybe if you stand outside a restaurant during like, rush hour, you can be like, "Can I come in for a quick shift?"

G: I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true.

C: I'm sure there's like, a lot of restaurants that will just- I'm pretty sure there are restaurants that like, will- if it's just not a very formal system.

G: You work for tips kind of thing? [C: Yeah.] Yeah, okay, I see that.

C: But yeah, I don't know. Anyway who has experience getting one-day jobs, let us know.

G: Maybe he was doing open mics. [C laughs] So true. Go, Sam.

C: Yeah. That's an honest days' work. Yeah, no, like, Dean was hustling pool, and Sam was doing an open mic.

G: In the same bar! [laughs] They were doing it in the same place. Yeah, Chuck says, "They drove a hundred miles for an Ozzie show, two days for a Jayhawks game." I did find these ones very charming. I found them very charming. I think it's so charming. I don't know. What is the Jayhawks?

C: I'm looking it up, and I'm seeing a band, but they said "game"? Oh, it's a Kansas... basketball? Oh, all of the teams from the University of Kansas are called Jayhawks, so it could be any sport.

G: Oh, yeah, that's fun! So they're going back to Kansas. [C: Yeah.] That's so cool! That's pretty cute. Love that.

C: That is cute that they developed some loyalty to the University of Kansas.

G: Yeah. And here I was asking what NBA team Dean supports or whatever, and he has always been a collegiate basketball guy.

C: Oh, and they're located in Lawrence, Kansas, too. So yeah.

G: "When it was clear, they'd park her in the middle of nowhere, sit on the boot, and watch the stars for hours without saying a word. It never occurred to them that sure, maybe they never really had a roof and four walls, but they were never, in fact, homeless." [C laughs] And Chuck's like, "That's really good!" and I'm like, "I don't know, man." [laughs]

C: Yeah, I think the point is that they wrote that, and they were like, "This is kind of bad." And they were like, "Let's just have Chuck lampshade that it's bad." [G laughs]

G: Yeah, anyway, I think this is the first time where we see Chuck actually typing this shit. He's actually quite jolly in disposition, but his phone rings, and he picks it up, and like, he answers it by going, "Mistress Magda?" Yeah, but it's not Mistress Magda. It's Dean. And they like linger on this joke and won't let it go.

C: For so long! [G: Yeah.] Dean just saw Sam like, get possessed by Lucifer and then disappear. [G laughs] And Bobby and Cas have both told him that the world is gonna end.

G: And Dean's like, "Okay, so what's that about?"

C: "Okay. But what's Chuck's relationship status?" It's 'cause he knows that Sam and Chuck were sorta involved, [G: Yeah.] and he's sort of just trying to suss out how badly Chuck is gonna to take the news.

G: Yeah, I think when when Dean was like, “Yeah, Sam said yes,” and Chuck says, “I know,” maybe Dean was like, "What? I thought you guys were in love!" [both laugh] [C: Yeah, exactly.] But maybe they're not anymore.

C: The Mistress Magda thing is 'cause Supernatural has an ongoing joke that Chuck is unmasculine and uncool, so that means he would be sexually submissive. [G: Yeah.] Yeah.

G: I think it's also a part of it is also that he pays for sex work, which Supernatural has always had a weird thing about, yeah. [C: Yeah.] It's a sign of like, lack of-

C: Real men can just get pussy by themselves or whatever, yeah. Though, I mean, in 5.03, I feel like it was treated more neutrally.

G: What's happening in 5.03?

C: The Cas "Free to be You and Me” thing.

G: I'm not sure what you're talking about.

C: With Chastity?

G: Ah, okay, okay. I think I was thinking about "The End." Yeah, I was like, "Where's that in 'The End'?" But you literally said "Free to Be You and Me," and I completely skipped over it.

C: Yeah, I said 5.03 and then I said "Free to Be You and Me," yes.

G: [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Dean is asking like, “Oh, what happened to Becky?” And Chuck's like, “Oh, yeah, it didn't work out. I had too much respect for her.”

C: What does that mean? I think th ejoke is that he wasn't attracted-

G: "If I respected you less, I may be able to stay in a relationship with you more." Like, what? [laughs]

C: I mean, respect has been used in like, “99 Problems” as like, a “Oh, sorry. I'm not actually gonna be attracted to you in front of your dad.” so like, I think that's just like, a euphemism for "I didn't want to fuck her."

G: Yeah, no, I mean definitely, that's what this is for.

C: Yeah, which is, yeah, unfortunate. I still don't understand why that's the language chosen.

G: Yeah, I think the implication here is like, I don't know. "I just didn't like her."

C: But he did, like, very much so in "The Real Ghostbusters."

G: Want to have sex with her?

C: Wasn't he doing his whole pining after her thing the whole episode?

G: I think he was just pining after the idea of like, someone liking him.

C: Why Becky?

G: Who knows? Why anyone, Crystal? [C laughing] [C: Fair.] Well, to answer your question honestly, it's because Becky is already into the show and also into Sam and Dean, and I think Chuck felt a little bit of ownership over those things. Like, "Well, if you like them so much, you should like me." [C: Perhaps so.] Yeah. But why anyone, Crystal? [both laugh] Yeah. And Dean just keeps on pressing. He just keeps on pressing. And Chuck eventually has to go, "Well, I mean, this can't be the reason why you called." [laughs] And I don't know. Dean says, "Yeah, Sam said yes, blah blah blah. Did you see what like, what's gonna happen after?" And Chuck is like, “The angels are keeping it very top secret. But I saw it, anyway, and it's tomorrow, high noon, Stull Cemetery." High noon is like, 12? Is that true?

C: Noon is 12, so I would assume.

G: Yeah. High noon is 12, but you smoke some weed. [laughs] Dean immediately recognizes this Stull Cemetery because it's in Lawrence, and Chuck says, “Well, it has to end where it started, I guess.” Chuck also says that like, there's no way to do all of this unless we have the rings and stuff and that he doesn't know what's gonna happen. But obviously, we know that's not true because he wrote extensively about the car. [C: Yeah. Yep.] Imagine if like, the car lost gas in the middle of the trip, and Dean has to hijack another car, and then he just dies [laughs] [C: It'd be over.], and the world ends, yeah. So fun.

C: So Dean's by the Impala, and Cas and Bobby show up. And Bobby's like, “You have a look on your face that indicates you're gonna do something stupid. Can you just give up, please?” [G: Pwease?] And Dean's like, "No, I need to go talk to Sam because it's Sam!" And Cas is like, “Don't do this. The only thing you're going to see out there is Michael [both] killing your brother." Lot of faith in Michael winning here. [laughs] And Dean says, “Well then, I ain't gonna let him die alone." And you care about this line.

G: Yeah. It matters to me.

C: Yeah. It is, I think, a well-placed line for people to care about.

G: And like, you know, it's the entire thesis of the scene in Stull Cemetery. And like, that's important. That matters to me. [laughs]

-

C: Now, we're at Stull Cemetery.

G: [laughs] We have the stupidest conversation in all of the earth. [C: Yeah.] Yeah, and maybe even other planets.

C: Yeah. And Lucifer's acting very different during this conversation. Like, he's not doing his whole smirky thing anymore.

G: He's doing like, a kicked puppy vibe.

C: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like- I think it makes sense, but I think the issue is that it's too similar to Sam that like, I feel like [G: Yeah.] it didn't work as much for me because I need there to be a clearer delineation between the characters.

G: And the thing is, they were trying to do something with like, "Oh, this is how Lucifer is similar to Sam" or something. I don't know, actually, what they're trying to do.

C: Maybe. I think they were maybe trying to do that. But like, I feel like with this TV show format where Jared Padalecki is playing both of them, I feel like the main thought is gonna be, "Is he like, not able to act as a different guy?" Yeah, Lucifer says it's good to see him, and Michael's like, "Yeah, it's good to see you, too. Can't believe it's finally time!" [laughs] And Lucifer's like, "I don't really want to do this." And Michael's like, "Yeah, I don't wanna do this either." [laughing] And Lucifer's like, "So like, why are we doing this?" And Michael says, "I have no choice after what you did." He doesn't even say what he did. [laughs] What did he do?

G: Yeah. I was waiting for that because I was waiting for-

C: Yeah, what did he actually do? He's been doing stuff now, but what did he do back then? He said he refused to bow to humans. That's not doing anything. That's saying a sentence. What did he do?

G: Like, the thing is, what I was waiting for is some sort of explanation of like, what actually occurred. Because like, Lucifer really does have this kind of like, "I'm the underdog. I was the wronged party." Like, every single thing that Lucifer has said this entire season has been like, “But don't you see? I'm actually the sad one!” That's his entire vibe. And so what you would expect to happen here is if they're going to continue to have Lucifer be the bad guy is for that to be like- that idea to be demolished. That like, "No, you just think- you just think you're the victim. But actually, what you did was like, so vitriolic, and you just delude yourself into thinking it's fine." But like, that's like, not the vibe of this conversation at all. [C: Yeah.] Like, this conversation ends, you're like, "I'm kind of on Lucifer's side." [both laugh] Like, what's that about?

C: Yeah. I don't know. It's- yeah. I mean, I don't think we're supposed to be strongly on Michael's side. Like, I think we're supposed to think he's like, a tightwad or whatever. [G: Yeah.] But I just feel like it would be expected that he says what Lucifer did. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] It would be helpful.

G: I think the implication is that he made God angry, but like, who give a fuck?

C: Yeah, yeah, he does- Yeah, that is the- So after "what you did" was "you made our dad mad, and then he walked out on us"? [G: Yeah.] Okay, I guess that's an interesting enough concept to explore. But like, so what did he do that made him angry? [laughs]

G: [overlapping] No, but like, what did he do to God, then?

C: Yeah. [laughs] What'd he do, though?

G: And like, the thing is like, again, if they were trying to do something interesting with Lucifer and Michael, they could have done it. It's just impossible to do now at the last episode of this season, and we don't see Michael again until Season 15, and like, you know what I mean? Like, if they try to develop-

C: Season 15? Well, we see AU Michael earlier, but yeah.

G: Like, if we tried to develop stuff more, like, it would be fine. If we know what Lucifer-

C: Yeah, but the only development is just, "And they're just like Sam and Dean! How? They're brothers!"

G: Yeah, that's what they're trying to do here. They're just trying to have, like, someone who will follow orders and someone who will not. And it's like, "Okay, well, is there more to anything?" [C: Yeah.] And I'm saying the whole thing about how it could have been interesting because it really could have been interesting, you know? You could have had a more complex Lucifer and a more complex Michael, but they just didn't develop it, and now they expect us to care, and like, well, we don't. [both laugh] Also like, I do find it so fascinating that here, it's real that Michael kind of doesn't want to do all of this shit, and I remember at some point in the season, I was like, “Wow, Michael's not really putting in any effort to get to Dean.” [C laughs] I think he was just kind of hoping that nobody says yes. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] He was like, "I don't really GAF. If Dean doesn't want to say yes, who am I to judge him? I also don't want to say yes."

C: Yeah. Zachariah was the only one who cared. [G laughs]

G: Literally, I think Zachariah was- I think maybe what happened is that Michael had a really, really, really enthusiastic subordinate. [C: Yeah.] And he was like, “Man, I can't disappoint this guy. I have to pretend I give a fuck.” [C: Mm-hm.] And the way he was like, “Oh, how I'm gonna show that I give a fuck is to be like, 'If you don't do this. I'm gonna kill you!'” [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] Zachariah's like, "Nooo! He's gonna kill me for real!"

C: He's like, “I really hope he doesn't do it so that I can kill him, and then there's no one who wants to do it.” [G laughs] [G: Literally.] Yeah, Lucifer goes, "What I did? What if it's not my fault?" And he goes, "Think about it. Dad made everything, which means he made me who I am. God wanted the devil." Okay, you will never be “Bug Like An Angel” by Mitski, so move on. Yeah, Lucifer says that he doesn't see the point of them fighting, like, “Is this just one of God's tests? We're brooothers! Let's just not do it!”

G: I mean, the point that they're trying to make here is freedom and choosing your own path, [C: Yeah.] veering off your fate, like F-A-T-E, etc etc. I just find it so fascinating that like, the thing that Cas says later is, "Peace or freedom." And it's like, for here, it's like, if you do one, you do the other, so I don't know.

C: Yeah, if you guys don't fight, then there will be peace because the Apocalypse will stop.

G: Yeah, and you will do it through the power of free will. So I don't know. I think they kind of trip a little bit in this entire conversation. Like, it's just mind-boggling. I don't know what they were trying to do.

C: Yeah. I don't know. Maybe if both of them walk off the chessboard, Lucifer's gonna continue sending storms everywhere or whatever, so it won't be peaceful? [G laughs] Who knows? Michael says that he can't step off because he's a good son, and he has his orders, and he's not gonna rebel like you. And he says that Lucifer always blames other people, and that they were all together and happy as angels, but in-

G: And this is like, a part where I was like, "That could be interesting." Like, Lucifer, is unable to take accountability for anything. And like, I think that that like, applies to how we have seen him prior. Like, he never talks about anything he did as anything that could possibly be wrong. He doesn't, you know, etc. Except here, it just looks like he's right to not blame himself, you know? I don't know. So stupid.

C: Yeah. So what Michael says is that he betrayed them and made God leave, and Lucifer's like, "No one makes him do anything. [G: Lucifer's like, "That's not my problem."] He's doing this to us." And then Michael says, “Let me throw in another Dean parallel. You're a monster, Lucifer, and I have to kill you!” [both laugh]

G: Which is something Dean literally says, right?

C: [laughing] Basically, I think! Well, it was like, "If you weren't my brother, I'd hunt you" or something. And also, I'm sure he says “monster” at some point.

G: Yeah. And he does have to kill Sam at some point in Season 2, yeah.

C: Yeah, all that. And Lucifer's like, "Okay, fine. Let's fight." And then we get, honestly, just a very corny theme.

G: I- shut the fuck up! [laughs]

C: It's a bad song, the car is going slow-

G: The song is bad.

C: And the cut is like- [laughing] I love the way that- Okay, I'll just do. Dean-

G: [laughing] Can I say first- Can I say something first, before you decimate this scene to pieces? [C: Yeah.] I love this scene. [C laughs] I love this bit. I think when Dean put that tape on the deck, I was smiling the entire time, and when he was driving, I was smiling the entire time. And I think a part of it is that it's a bright scene, and I was like, "Wow, we're in daytime! Love the sun!" But also, it's wonderful, I think, the whole vibe of it, of like, yeah, there's some dude- We had just had this really serious, mind-boggling conversation, and now there's this dude with a tape and a terrible song going through there. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. So there's a guy with a tape and a terrible song. His name is Dean Winchester.

G: He's going through here, yeah.

C: And he's going through here, yeah. So he's gotten to the cemetery, I assume, and he's like, "I want a soundtrack. [laughs] I want a diegetic soundtrack. I'm about to witness my brother die, [both laugh] but what I really want to do outside the cemetery is put a tape in with just a song that's bad!"

G: " - is associate a terrible song to his death, and I will never be able to listen to it, which is fine, because it's terrible."

C: - it's so bad, yeah. [laughs]

G: This is why he chose a terrible song. If he chose a good song, he'll be like, "This is a song I can never listen to again!"

C: Yeah, "I've ruined this song forever!" It's "Rock of Ages" by Def Leppard.

G: This is why you should only listen to terrible music when you begin a relationship, by the way. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. That is real.

G: [laughing] Just like me and Will Wood. [C laughs] Except I still listen to him, so.

C: The song begins with like, just a talky part that isn't cool or energizing or anything. [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] And he starts driving incredibly slowly. I myself have had to speed the scene up for AMVs, [both laugh] [G: No!] so I have a special hatred of it. [G: So true.] I just think if you're trying to do a slow and deliberate thing, don't do this song. And if you're trying to do a cool thing, don't have him drive so slow. Also, his dialogue seems to indicate that they're trying to do a cool thing.

G: Ah. I don't know. I think it was- I don't know. I think it was normal.

C: Well, I think it sucked! [laughs] Yeah. So he drives. And it's so nothing. It's like, the wheels going over the bumpy grass incredibly slowly.

G: The wheels in the Impala go round and round.

C: They sure do. And Dean gets out of the car, and he goes. “Howdy, boys. Sorry, am I interrupting something?" Cut to commercial. We come back. Dean is in the car.

G: There's no music. [C laughs]

C: [laughing] He opens the door, and he goes, "Hey! We need to talk." [laughing]

G: And the music is done. They cut through-

C: [laughing] Like, he came out, he was like, "Am I interrupting something?" The song kept going, he was like, "Wait wait wait. Give me a second." [laughs]

G: He was like, "Wow! This song actually does suck for real."

C: [laughing] Yeah, that just has to be what happened. That's what happened in between when there was the cut to commercial. [G: For real.] I just think this is a very obvious mistake, and I don't see how this couldn't have been caught in the editing.

-

G: Now, we're in the cemetery for real for real. We were also here for real for real earlier, but like, it was a stupid scene.

C: Yeah, we were here the whole time. Dean drove like, 10 feet. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. Anyway, Dean says, "We need to talk." And Lucifer's like, "Yeah, no, this is so stupid." And Dean's like, "No, I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to Sam." But Michael is like, pissed that Dean is here and is like, "Yeah, you you have to not be here. You have no right to be here." And Dean says, "Adam, if you're in there somewhere, I am so sorry." [laughs] At least he apologized!

C: Yeah. I think it was nice that he said that, but then he forgot about that guy for ten seasons, so.

G: Yeah. Michael says, "Adam isn't home right now," and Dean goes, "Well then, you're next on my list. But you know, right now, I need to talk to Sam." But Michael's real pissed, really furious. He goes, "You little maggot. You are no longer a part of this story!" But Cas goes, "Hey, assbutt?" What do you think of this? What do you think of this word? Do you like it? I've heard people not like it.

C: I think it's fun. I mean, I think I encountered it before I had the knowledge and feeling to form an opinion on it, so it's just like, part of who Cas is as a person to me.

G: Yeah. I think- I don't know. I think maybe that's true for me, too. It's just like, I don't know. I think it's cute. I think it's fun. But yeah, it's cuts to Cas and Bobby [laughs], and they're standing-

C: Yeah, they drove here together!

G: Yeah, and Cas is holding a Molotov cocktail, and he throws the bottle directly at Michael, like, directly at Michael's body. And also it's like, a Molotov cocktail of holy oil, I think, or holy fire. [C: Yeah.] And [laughing] Dean just looks back and goes- Oh, wait, and Michael erupts into flames. And Dean turns back and goes, "Assbutt" And Cas is just like, "Uh." And he goes, "He'll be back and upset, but you have your five minutes." But Lucifer, looking at this, goes, "Castiel. Did you just Molotov my brother with holy fire?" [laughs] And then it cuts to Dean, who gives Cas like, a little bit of a "Uh..." side-eye. He's like, "Um, so how are you gonna get out of here?" And Cas just goes, "Haha, [both] uh... no?" [both laugh] [C: So important.] And he's doing that same- he has the same vibe of when he told Sam, "No, it'll be fine."

C: "Everything's gonna be okay!"

G: Yeah. He has one lying face. Lucifer says, “No one dicks with Michael but me,” and he explodes Cas into a puddle. Not even a puddle. It's like, so everywhere. It’s like a fine mist of blood and goo and meat and everything. Anyway, we get the Dean reaction face where he looks at this, and he looks shocked, which is kind of funny, because later, when Bobby dies, Dean looks at it, and goes, "Noo!" [both laugh] So like, I don't know, the juxtaposition of those is pretty funny to me. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] But yeah, Lucifer starts trying to attack Dean, but then, yeah, Bobby shoots, and Lucifer twists his neck via air, and he dies. [C: Yeah.] And Dean goes, "[both] Noo!" Yeah. And then, like, Dean starts trying to crawl up the hood of the Impala or something. And then Lucifer, like, grabs him by the legs so that he can start punching, and he punches him to hell and back.

C: It's honestly kind of funny. The way the punches are cut feels like a comedy skit.

G: [laughs] Yeah. Anyway, what happened at some point, like, Dean falls to the ground beside the Impala. Dean starts calling out for Sam, but Lucifer is like, "No, yeah, he's in here, but, you know, we're going to feel every crack of your bone." Just like me in the morning. [C laughs] And yeah, he says, "We're gonna take our time." But then Dean, like, holds on to Sam's jacket, and he goes, "Sam, it's okay. It's okay. I'm here. I'm not gonna leave you." And he just like, repeats this for a bit. Like, he's really beaten the fuck up, and Lucifer's still going at him. And then suddenly, as Lucifer raises his fist for that final blow, he catches site of the little [laughs] replacement army guy [C laughs] that Dean put in the ashtray that Sam put in the ashtray before Dean did. [laughing] Wait, this joke escaped me completely. But I mean, like, yeah, there's the army guy there. The way they do it is like, yeah, it's there. And then we like, zoom in on Sam's eye, and there's a glint in in his eye that looks so obviously [C: Fake.] edited in. It looks bad! It looks horrible! And then we just have this quiet- this like, incredibly quiet scene. Is there background music? I don't think there was. But it was just this incredibly quiet scene where, like, you know, Lucifer and now Sam has his fist raised up, and he's looking at the little army guy, and we just get a bunch of flashbacks, and it is- At first, it was like, all of the times that are like Impala-relevant. So like, carving their initials on it, you know, stuff like that, and all the toys, and I don't know, the cassette tape collection. You know, stuff like that. Sleeping in the car, going through the car, Sam brushing- yeah. Did we ever see them carve their initials, aside from here? I don't think so. I think this is like, the first time.

C: Yeah, I mean, they do it when they're kids, and they'll do it in the Bunker table-

G: No, yeah. But I mean, we've never seen the carved initials like, ever.

C: Yeah, I don't think so.

G: Yeah. I mean, they bring it up in, you know, the finale finale. Or at least the pre-finale. They bring it up in 15.19, where they carve- [laughs] what did they carve?

C: Castiel and Jack?

G: I think they put CW- [laughs] No. They put SW, DW, MW, Jack, and Castiel. Or Cas, I think.

C: I think it was Castiel.

G: I'm sure it's Castiel. You know why? Because if they put "Cas," they would have made it double S, [C: Yeah!] and I would have rioted. [C laughs] I don't know. I think it's a fun thing. I think it's a fun thing, the carving, specifically. The flashbacks slowly turn from like, moments in the car to moments with Dean. So now we have scenes that are not in the car, but it's Dean. And like, it's actually like, quite emotional. Like, I felt like, "Aw!" Like, "The show's ending!" you know, when I was watching this scene. And then they did this really horrible editing choice [laughs] where the final scene is a scene where Dean like, hugs Sam in- when he comes back to life in "All Hell Breaks Loose," but they slow it down, so it's a really janky slow motion. [C laughs] So there's just this like, hype-up of- And like, the cuts become faster and faster too. So like, they are building up to something. It falls- it doesn't fall flat. I still think it's flies a little bit, but it's just flies lower than it should have otherwise if they used a more not slow-motion version of this scene. But okay. Go AMV makers or something. [C laughs] Anyway, yeah, we go back to Sam, who is now Sam. And he unclenches. [C laughs] It's him. And he goes, "It's okay. It's okay, Dean. It's gonna be okay. I got him." And then he gets the ring, puts it on the ground, he does the chant, and he looks so scared, and I think that's what got to me. Like, he does look so scared, like, about to jump into this thing. And as he's about to, Michael, like, comes in, and is like, "No! We can't do this. We can't do this." And eventually, like, Michael tries to get Sam to not jump, but Sam just grabs him in with him. [C: Yeah.] And the earth swallows him, and it closes up, and that's it. [C: Yep.] End of story. [C: Goodbye.] If this show ended here, this would be the last we see of Sam. [C: Yes.] And it is quite an affecting thing to think about because we start the story with Sam. Like, this is Sam's story.

C: They never treated it like Sam's story.

G: Yeah. But you know, like, if this was the final episode of the show, and it was just like, okay, start to end, like, we started out with Sam. And like, you know, Sam had an apple pie life or whatever. He was in college. That was like, barely apple pie. That's like, apple tart, maybe. [both laughing] He had an apple tart life, and yeah, and like, you know, he was safe, and he was there and had a girlfriend, which I'm only mentioning because it's important, not because I support the role of misogyny in Supernatural- [C laughs]

C: Well, I do! [G laughs]

G: Yeah, every time you mentioned Jess, it's in support of the role of misogyny in Supernatural.

C: Yeah. I'm nodding my head to show that I agree with misogyny in Supernatural.

G: Yeah. And then his last scene is, he just gets swallowed up by a hole in the earth and dies. And not even just dies, like, is miserable forever. Like, it sucks! [C: Not good.] And I don't know. Yeah, it's truly something. It's something. Yeah. I just wanted to say that.

C: I don't know. I guess it would just be framed as like, a tragedy, obviously. But like, what is the framing? Like, is part of it like, "Well, he made his mistakes, and now he's paying for it," or is it-

G: I don't think so. [C: Yeah, it's just-] I think it's like, "What are the choices we make? And you can make the right choice." And in this case, Sam made the right choice to jump into that thing, etc, and the world was saved, but like, you know, he's gonna be suffering in a cage forever, and Dean's miserable and alone, and Cas is going back to the place that rejected him, and Bobby's back to being by himself. And, you know, it's like, these concepts of, like, "What does it mean?" Like, yeah, you can do the right thing, [C: Right.] but none of that guarantees a happy ending. In fact, maybe even doing the right thing means subsuming yourself into the fact that you're never gonna be happy. [C: Yeah.] And that's- I think that's something. [C: Yeah. I suppose.] Wow. Sorry! A bummer! [laughs]

C: I mean, if it ended here, it wasn't meant to be a tragedy, which is meant to be a bummer.

-

C: Yeah, Dean's still kneeling on the ground where he was when Sam came back, and Cas shows up, and Dean goes, "Cas, you're alive?" And Cas says, "I'm better than that." and he heals Dean by touching him on the forehead, and Dean gets up.

G: I think there's something to, as I said earlier, like, Dean, like, loses everything, right? [C: Yeah.] Like, he lost Sam-

C: Yeah, he points it out on the car convo, too.

G: Yeah, and lost Bobby. But like, in that scene, he was like, in the car conversation, he was like, actively losing Cas, too. Like, this was somebody he connected with, and now, he's just gonna go back to Heaven. And I don't know. This one- I'm bringing this up here because the "Cas, you're alive?" is like a, you know, "If Cas is alive, then I haven't lost everyone." And then he brings back Bobby, and it's like, "Well, I haven't lost everyone! At least Bobby's here. At least Cas is here," and then he loses those too. And like, by choice, it seems like.

C: Would we say he loses Bobby? I feel like both of them just decided not to hang out. [laughs] Like, it's kinda on them.

G: Yeah, maybe he was like, "Oh, you never even loved my brother." [both laugh] Maybe Bobby was like, "What a good thing that Sam succeeded. Wow!"

C: Yeah, "Hell yeah!"

G: "I knew he had it in him to throw himself into a burning pit in Hell or whatever," and Dean's like, "Dude. Have some sensitivity! I'm mourning." And Bobby was like, "Wait, why are you mourning? I thought you were afraid of like, losing. You just lost your brother!"

C: "Losing, not losing Sam!" [both laugh] Yeah, that's why they don't talk.

G: And Dean was like, "I need to go."

C: So true. Yeah. It seems like more of a choice that's like, "Sam wanted me to live a normal, apple pie life with Lisa, and that means that I'm not gonna talk to any hunters anymore. Bye!" [G: So true.] Yeah. How would Cas have fit into this apple pie life? [G: I don't know.] Sam wanted Dean to go back and like, go live with Lisa and all that shit, but he also wanted Cas to watch over him. Yeah. When Cas was looking at Dean raking leaves, that wasn't about Destiel. He was just following his promise to Sam. [both laughing] Yeah, he was like, "I fucking hate doing this, but I told the love of my life Sam Winchester that I would."

G: Yeah, like, if Dean was secretly gay but he had to be straight to like, keep his promise to Sam, [laughing] Cas is secretly straight, but he had to keep his promise to Dean, and that's why he did all of that?

C: He's secretly straight? [G: Yeah.] Okay, so there's no love for Sam that's causing this.

G: No, yeah, no love for Sam other than, um, I don't know.

C: Brotherly?

G: He prommied! He prommied! [C laughs] He has respect for the promise. He has respect for the lie.

C: He has too much respect for Sam, and that's why he's following the promise and not fucking him. [G laughing] [G: Exactly!] So yeah, Cas heals Dean, who stands up and says, "Cas, are you God?" Kind of a crazy line. What did he mean by that? Dean has had a lot of issues with God this season. Is that related at all to this statement? [G: What is he asking here?] Does he actually believe this for a second, and yeah, also, what is he asking?

G: I think maybe he thought- he did believe it for a second.

C: And that Cas had been God the whole time? And how did he feel about that?

G: I think it's also a little bit wishful thinking, maybe. Like, if Cas is God, [both] he'll bring Sam back or something.

C: Yeah, like, "I thought that God was like, a completely detached figure who didn't give a fuck. But he was here the whole time."

G: Yeah, [laughing] "But if God wanted to fuck me, [C laughs] maybe he'll bring back my brother!" [C: Literally.] And he did! He literally did! [both laughing] But he's not God, he's an angel, so he only brought back Sam's body, not his soul. So true!

C: Yeah. Exactly. Cas says, "That's a nice compliment." which is also an interesting idea.

G: And he's smiling a little bit. He's doing a beatific smile or whatever the fuck.

C: Yeah, yeah. I love when Cas does a beatific smile. I don't think he's done one this whole season.

G: I don't think so too, and he was miserable.

C: But now that he has his powers back, he feels superior again in some way. He's not miserable, and he feels he has the right to beatifically smile. He goes like, "No, but I think he brought me back, new and improved." And he fucking resurrects Bobby. Does he lose his resurrection powers right after this episode? Because I feel it'd be very helpful if he continued to have them for Season 6.

G: Maybe Bobby is not dead. Maybe he just had a broken neck, but he was on the verge of dying. [C laughs] I don't think so. [C: Okay, sure.] I don't think that's true, because your spinal cord does the- what's that? The breathing-

C: Yeah, the brain needs to connected-

G: - the unconscious- What the fuck is that called? The things that you do that you don't think about?

C: The... autonomic functions. So yeah, Bobby's alive, and then we go to the Chuck voiceover in Chuck's house, and he's finishing up the manuscript. And he goes, "Endings are hard, and everyone hates all endings. The fans are always gonna bitch. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] And it's supposed to add up to something, which also makes it hard." [laughs] And then-

G: Imagine like, reading a book, [laughing] and this is like, how it ends. [C laughing]

C: Yeah, you're going to the ending, and it's like, "It's hard to write these because you're fucking annoying!" [G laughs] Anne Rice would do this. Anne Rice would say that you're interrogating the text from the wrong perspective.

G: What are you talking about?

C: Yeah, have you seen that? Apparently- I haven't read any of The Vampire Chronicles, but one of the books called Blood Canticle came out, and it was like, universally panned because it's just bad, and she like, wrote an Amazon review of her own book that was incredibly long, and all of it was like, "You guys don't know what the fuck you're talking about! I can't believe you don't recognize art! [G: So true.] Like, oh, you're telling me I should have gotten an editor? I don't use editors because I know I'm better than them," etc, etc. And one of the opening things is that she says, "You guys are interrogating the text from the wrong perspective." and I think that's the phrase that stuck from that review. But yeah, Chuck would do that.

So yeah, we now have a Dean and Cas, Cas and Dean scene in the Impala, and Dean's driving. Cas is sitting next to him. And Dean asks, "What are you gonna do now?" And Cas says, "Return to Heaven, I suppose. With Michael in the cage, I'm sure it's total anarchy up there." And Dean goes, "So what? You're the new sheriff in town?" And Cas smiles beatifically.

G: And Cas is like, "Ya." [laughs] Cas goes, "Ya, I suppose I am!"

C: Yeah, he says, "I like that" first.

G: [laughs] What's his problem? What is his problem? Let's do a Cas analysis right now.

C: What is his problem? He spent like, a season feeling absolutely miserable as he lost his powers little by little.

G: Yeah. And then he was proven right, so, that's why.

C: Yeah. And also, he was like, "God doesn't care about me. God doesn't wuv me," etc etc. [G: Yeah.] And he got all his powers back. God said, "You're my favorite special little angel," and kissed him on the forehead. [G: Yeah.] And he's like, "Thank God, I don't have to feel as depressed as I did last year when I was hanging out with all these fuckass guys. Goodbye!"

G: Oh, that's true. He probably does associate Dean with like, negativity, because he's like, "Yeah, this is the person that made me experience doubt." And like, that's not true, but Cas thinks it is, you know what I mean? [C: Yeah.] He does think that-

C: Yeah, 'cause he went from like, the lowest like, "Let's all get drunk and die as the world ends" to like, "Oh my god! Like, God loves me, God cares, I have my powers back. He like, wants this for me. I want this for me. Like, I don't want to hang out with this guy anymore. He ruined my life!" [G: Yeah.] Yeah, I mean, I think he still has a fondness for Dean, but I think there's just like a, you know, "That was then. That was my lowest. He was there for me at my lowest. Now, I'm at my highest. I don't need him." [G: Yeah.] Yeah.

G: Well, he will be there in all of your further lowests Cas, but only because [laughs] he will shove your face into the mud face-first. [both laughing]

C: Ex-act-ly. I think there's a fondness. I think there's also just a sense of superiority and moving on. Like, he's like, "God, as my therapist, said that I shouldn't talk to you anymore."

G: Yeah. And like, I think now, more than ever, Cas thinks like, "Oh. I'm an angel, and this is some guy." [C: Yeah.] And that's a sentiment of his that will continue on for a bit and will be the backbone of Season 6. So yeah, I think it's cool that we see it then here. That like, there's already inklings of that here.

C: So yeah, Dean goes, "Wow. God gives you a brand new shiny set of wings, and suddenly, you're his bitch again." Yeah. And Cas does say that he doesn't know what God wants. "I don't know if I can return. It just seems like the right thing to do." So okay, I think we were maybe overstating God's importance regarding his change of heart, but-

G: No, I mean, it's purpose. I think God's part of it, too, for sure. Like, God did bring him back, and that is a big thing. But like, he's chasing the sense of purpose, and he thinks the sense of purpose was given to him by God. Like, I don't think it's a we're attributing too much or anything.

C: Well, he says he doesn't know what God wants exactly.

G: Yeah, but like, "If God gave me my skill, I need to use it." That kind of thing.

C: Yeah. I think that does make sense. Everyone in Heaven hates him and wants him to die. It's incredibly funny that he was like, "I'm gonna go up and I'm gonna rule everybody!"

G: Yeah. Well, he was like, "Well, God said, 'Fag, you will forever.' And so who give a shit if everybody want me to die?"

C: Exactly. And Dean says, "If you do see him, tell him I'm coming for him next." And Cas was like, "Oh, you're angry!" [laughs]

G: He's kind of shocked. [laughs] It's so funny. [C: Yeah.] He's like, "You're angry." and he's saying this like it's a reveal. [laughs]

C: Yeah, he's like, "Wait, aren't we like, good? Like, I'm cruising. I'm living my best life. I brought your Bobby guy- that one? He's back. Like, we all knew your brother was gonna die. Like, what's up?" Dean goes, "That's an understatement." And Cas says, "He helped. Maybe even more than we realize." And yeah, Dean says explicitly, "[both] That's easy for you to say, because he brought you back. But what about Sam? And what about meeee?"

G: Yeah. "Where's my grand prize?"

C: "All I got is my brother in a hole."

G: Yeah. And Cas says this line that like, is kind of iconic to me. Also doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't know. They're trying to do something. He says, "You got what you asked for. No paradise, no Hell. Just more of the same. Admit it, Dean. What would you rather have? Peace or freedom?" And he says it, "Peace... or freedom?" [both laugh] He's really selling it.

C: He's practicing for his TED Talk.

G: Yeah, we go to Dean, but like, as he turns his head to talk to Cas, Cas has disappeared, and Dean goes, "Well, you really suck at goodbyes. You know that?" [C: Yeah.] I mean, it is incredibly funny that Dean was like, "What about Sam? What about me?" And Cas is like, "Well, you made your choice, Dean." [both laughing] And then he seemingly immediately goes to the Cage to bring back Sam!

C: No, that is so true! [laughing] Yeah, no, at what point was Cas like, "Okay, it's Cage time." Like, did he go to Heaven first for a while, and he was like, "This kind of sucks!"

G: "This is kind of boring. I need an adventure." [laughs]

C: Like, "I'm kinda bored. Let me just nip down to the Cage for a second." Or yeah, was it just like, "Dean, you have to accept that Sam is gone... forever. Oh my god, he's gonna be soo happy when I surprise him next week!" [both laughing] Like, I guess he also didn't know that he was gonna succeed. Maybe he just wanted to be like, [G: Give it a shot, yeah.] "I'm gonna say something so wise. It's gonna leave Dean in a really emotionally stable spot if I try and fail. I think this is gonna be what's really gonna help him throughout the rest of his life in case I die down there." So what is it that- Okay, like, Dean asked for this, when?

G: Asked for what? What are you talking about?

C: "You got what you asked for, Dean"? Like, what is he talking about, and also when did he ask for it?

G: No Dean's just general idea that like, Heaven shouldn't exist.

C: True. Still exists?

G: What?

C: But it still does exist.

G: I don't know. I mean for Dean, it's- I don't know. I don't know.

C: No, no, no. "No, Paradise, no Hell" is just the outcomes of the Lucifer/Michael fight. [G: Apocalypse, yeah.] That's what he's talking about. There we go. Okay, yeah. He didn't want the fight to happen. The fight didn't happen. [G: Yeah.] And that means that the earth is going to stay the same. [both] Yeah. "Peace or freedom." What is peace to this situation?

G: I have no idea. Is peace-

C: Is it when Heaven wins the fight? Is that what peace is?

G: Yeah. But like, I don't know. I think you can argue that this is peace and freedom. Like, yeah, Dean's out of the hunting life. He's fine. He's miserable, but he's fine. I mean, you can make the argument that peace doesn't necessarily mean happiness, and yeah. I don't know. It's just like, it falls a bit flat. Maybe that's the reason why. Cas is like, "Oh, this argument is not working. I think I need to get Sam out of the Cage." [laughs] Yeah. So we have more of a voiceover. Chuck is going like, "Yeah, this is the last time Dean and Bobby are going to see each other for a very long time." It's not that long. [laughs] Also like, this is cut by like, Dean and Bobby having a hug and like, Dean driving away. And Chuck says, "Bobby's going to be hunting a rugaru next week, but Dean won't be. And Dean didn't want Cas to save him. Every part of him-"

C: Very interesting 4.01 callback. I was surprised that it happened here.

G: Also like, it's just an interesting way to put it. [C: Yeah.] "Dean didn't want Cas to save him." He was still alive. Was he gonna die of injuries?

C: Oh, I thought he was talking about 4.01.

G: No! He was talking about just this!

C: 5.22. Just now? [G: Yeah, yeah.] He's gonna die from being punched in the face?

G: He wants to die and find a way to bring Sam back. I mean, he can get CTE, so [laughs] he'll die a long while from now. I think it's just an interesting way to say that Cas saved him. Like, I don't think that's true, necessarily.

C: I think if they wanted this to work, he had to be dying a little bit harder by the time Cas showed up.

G: Like, I think it could be fine to have him like lying on the ground obviously dying of injuries or something. [C: Yeah.] And then Cas shows up and like, he's back to life. But yeah, apparently, every part of him, every fiber he's got wants to die or find a way to bring Sam back, but he isn't gonna do either. He's not gonna die, ever? [both laugh] "Because he made a promise." Yeah. And the promise manifests itself by Dean knocking on Lisa's door. And it's like, night, and Lisa opens the door, and she like, looks a bit shocked, and Dean is like, wearing a very sheepish smile. And he goes like, "Hey. If it's not too late, I think I'll take you up on the beer." And Lisa goes, "It's never too late." Shut the fuck up! [both  laugh] I'm so sorry. It's not her fault that she's a woman in Supernatural.

C: Yeah. And also, we said that we'll try to analyze her more like a real person [G: Yeah.] rather than a woman in Supernatural because she's going to be in so much of Season 6 that it doesn't make sense to dismiss her every time she's on screen. [G: Yeah, okay, so.] But it is hard. [laughs] But yeah.

G: I think right now, what we ought to do is just discuss this as it is right now, which is that it's a really stupid thing that Supernatural did. And like, we need to get it out of our system here, because in Season 6, I think it's our responsibility, I think, to like, engage with the Lisa storyline as benevolently towards Lisa as possible or something. [C: Yeah.] Yeah, this is so stupid. [both laugh] And like, you know, Dean steps in, and then, like, Lisa hugs him, and goes, "It's okay. It's going to be okay."

C: Like, are you his mommy? What is this? [laughs]

G: What is this? And it's just like, this is what I was trying to compare with earlier with Sam with like, Jess, but the thing with Sam and Jess in their apple tart life was that like, Jess doesn't know anything. And like, Sam wasn't in active trauma mode in college, which is a very different dynamic from Dean and Lisa, where Lisa knows that stuff happened, but doesn't know anything about anything about it. And it's like, having to play the role of being like, careful and walking on eggshells around this guy while she is also taking care of a child. Which like, I don't know. It's just an incredibly different dynamic. And like, I understand that what they're trying to do is that "it's not just Lisa, it's the family!" Like, she has a kid. And I remember when they were trying to do the Lisa thing earlier this season, and we both said that like, why not Cassie? And it's like, that's probably for the best, because if it was with Cassie, that's gonna be a toddler. And it's like, maybe it's better that it's like, a 13- or 12-year-old kid.

C: Is he really that old?

G: I think so. 12? Yeah?

C: I'm gonna look up Ben Braeden. Well, no, okay. He had a fling with Lisa nearly 9 years prior, and then there's the 9 months of pregnancy, so he was probably turning 8 in season. [G: Yeah.] So yeah, I guess he's 10 to 11 now. [G: Yeah.] Yeah.

G: But yeah, I mean, so the point is to have a kid. But yeah, I don't know. It's just, the way they characterize Lisa is like, what is this?

C: She's just been here waiting for him the whole time.

G: She's just been here waiting for him, like, yeah. And I don't know. Again-

C: This is also how they characterize Kate Milligan.

G: Yeah, I'm trying to- I guess I'm gonna try to hold out severe judgments until Season 6, so.

C: Yeah, I think the way I have to approach it is just like, "This is what I see on screen. What is the type of person who would be like this?" and then try to just fill that in with a complete person. [G: Yeah.] Like, okay. Say she has been waiting for Dean the whole time. Like, why do we think that is?

G: Yeah. I don't know. [laughs] I think maybe she just got freaked out by Dean last time, and it's not like she was waiting for Dean. It was more of a, "Oh, thank god this guy I thought was going to kill himself or something is alive!"

C: Yeah. But I also feel like if you're someone who cares or is nervous about it, like, you start  throwing a bunch of questions, right? There's a kind of franticness that she just doesn't represent because she's just meant to be this calming presence.

G: Yeah, that's the thing.

C: No, okay, I'm getting off the- Okay. I need to think of her as a real person.

G: Because they've done Amelia with Jimmy, so like- Oh my god, Jimmy's dead. RIP. But like, they did Amelia, and they did her well. [C: Yeah, I liked her.] I think her characterization was like- she felt like a person who was actually experiencing this shit. But like, for some reason, they just completely missed the mark on Lisa. At least here, yeah.

C: Yeah. And I get- Okay, she finds out monsters are real, and Dean saves her son's life. I get like- I don't know if you're sort of unsatisfied, I get like, making a big deal of that in your head, especially because it was like, linked with an extremely stressful time of her life, and like, her learning a lot of new things about the world. I get like- I don't know. Sort of putting Dean on some sort of hero hot guy pedestal after that. And then, yeah, he comes by. He worries her a lot. And then he comes back. I think there's enough adrenaline associated with him that she might just be like, "Okay, yeah, let's be chill and try to have him stay." But I don't know. Is that the vibe? What is the vibe? I don't know. I mean, apparently, she talked about him to her friends before Season 3 as the best lay she's ever had, [G: Yeah.] so she has had a long term sort of thing for Dean.

G: I think, okay. You know what? I berate her so much. If I was in her position, I think I'd let- not Dean, but like, you know, a person who is [laughs] akin to Dean in my life, into my life. I think maybe I'll do it, so I don't know.

C: Yeah. Like, you're worried about this person. This person is also exciting and [G: Yeah.] you're kind of bored.

G: Yeah, or like, I don't know. But like, I think because we know for a fact that this isn't just like, helping Dean get back to his feet or something. It's- Dean will be the dad of the family now.

C: Yeah, she wants them to be Ben's dad. I think it's at that point where I start being like- Yeah.

G: Like, yeah, maybe I'll let this theoretical Dean into my life. But if I had a theoretical child, I won't be like, "Yeah, you can stay here forever and ever, and also, you're the father of this kid." Or the mother. I don't know. Gender diversity. [laughs]

C: Yeah, like I'd put you up in a hotel for a few weeks.

G: I think it's like, you can stay over for a bit until you get back to your feet, and I'll help you find a job if you want to do that, I'll help you find an apartment or something.

C: Yeah. And if during that time, he proves himself to be really good with Ben, and they like, fall into bed together a few times also, then I can see them getting to where they are in Season 6. But the immediacy doesn't make sense.

G: Yeah, I think what it is is that it just is like, a foregone conclusion that they're gonna be a family now, is the thing that bothers me. [C: Yeah.] Because if it was like, Lisa helped Dean back to his feet, and then, in Season 6, months or years later, they have ended up becoming a romantic couple, I'll be like, "Yeah, that makes sense. Why not?" But like, here, it's like, they just go right into it. Like, are they gonna fuck later tonight? [laughing] Like, what's the situation? What is the situation? What is the situation? What is the situation? I don't know.

C: I could not tell you. See, I feel like all of my making Lisa seem like a real person things involve, like, Dean sort of being an exciting fling thing that maybe develops more later. But yeah, this is very much like, "Here he is. My husband, home from the war." [G laughs]

G: You don't even know the guy! Well, whatever. I think we should move on 'cause etc. It like, zooms out slowly, and then Chuck goes, "So, what's it all add up to? It's hard to say. But me, I'd say this was a test for Sam and Dean. And I think they did alright." And then there's like, flashbacks, whatever. Yeah. "Up against good, evil, angels, demons, destiny, and God himself, they made their own choice. They chose family. And well, isn't that kind of the whole point?" No, it's not! It's hope! [both laugh] Yeah, you're lying to me!

C: You wrote that, Chuck. You should know.

G: Yeah. Anyway, you know, stuff's happening. Then we go back to Chuck, and he writes, "The End." And then he goes, "No doubt, endings are hard. But then again, what isn't?" [laughs] No, he says, "Nothing ever really ends, does it?" And then he like, gives a little bit of a smile, and then he disintegrates into the air. And he's God. RIP. No, not RIP. [C laughs] Amen? I don't know. [both laughing]

C: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's that.

G: I think it's Amen.

C: I'm a little confused by what he means by, "they chose family."

G: Yeah, [laughing] I did say we should discuss it, but now that we're here, I'm like, "I don't know." I don't know.

C: Okay, it's been a test for Sam and Dean. Okay, the test was is Dean gonna grow up and trust Sam enough that like, he's not gonna prevent Sam from doing this. And is Sam's-

G: [laughing] And is Sam gonna shove himself into a pit?

C: - love for Dean strong enough that he'll be able to wrest control back from Lucifer and throw himself into a big old hole? [G laughs] That's the test?

G: [laughing] I don't know. It-

C: And choosing family means respecting your brother from Dean and-

G: [laughing] But only if he wants to die. In other ways, you shouldn't respect him. [C: Uh-huh.] I don't know. I don't know. I mean- yeah. I think, no. Actually, you know what. In further analysis, I think what he's saying is that they made their own choice, and that is the point. In that they chose family- The point is the choice, not the family.

C: But like, how did they choose family, though?

G: Secret! [both laughing] I don't know. I think they chose family in that Dean decided that even if it means he'd die, he won't let Sam die alone. I think that's it.

C: Okay, sure. And then that is how Sam was able to wrest back control, 'cause Dean was there. [G: Yeah.] Or the Impala was there. [G: Yeah.] Literally, if Bobby had just driven the Impala over, and then stood to the side, it would have been fine, too. [laughs]

G: So yeah, I think the point is the choice, not the family.

C: Okay. Sure. Alright. I see it.

G: Hashtag abortion rights or whatever. [C: Yeah.] Yeah. So we go back- This scene, it boggles my mind. So we go back to Lisa's house, and we're like, looking through the window, and like, Dean is inside, and Lisa is on the counter, preparing food. And then she goes and like, serves the the food. And, like, Ben is also on the table.

C: Help in the kitchen, Dean.

G: Dean is drinking whiskey. [C: Yeah.] Why?

C: 'Cause- Yeah, she offered him a beer, so it doesn't really make sense.

G: I mean, I understand that people can drink whiskey, in houses, even, but like, it's dinner time. You're about to eat. You're about to eat. You've not done anything yet. You're about to eat. There's a kid in front of you. [C: Yeah.] Who- like, Lisa offered him whiskey?

C: Dean's looking off to the side away from Ben also, which is like, I feel like if your mother decides that you just have a new dad now, like, that new dad now should take some effort to talk to you. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] He's literally ignoring the child, swigging whiskey, and Lisa's like, "Yes. This is what I want."

G: I don't know what is it with the alcohol that really- Do you understand where my hesitation comes from? And also like, do you think it's reasonable? Like, he shouldn't be drinking whiskey here, I think, is my opinion.

C: Like, in this scene? In her house? In front of the kid? What's your particular objection.

G: Well, it's before the- I think whiskey is like, that's after food.

C: Oh, okay. [both laugh] That was it?

G: This is just a gourmet thing. No, but like, I think it's like, after food, and it's like, not with the children. I don't know. Because if this was wine, I'd probably be like, "It's fine." But I think whiskey is much more stronger than wine. [C: Yeah.] And I just, I don't know. Because I don't wanna come in here and be like, "If you're an alcoholic, you should like, not be near your children at all." Like, that's- 'Cause I'm afraid that it's gonna come off like that, right? [C: Uh-huh.] And that's why I'm asking like, do you think this is like, an appropriate thing for me to say? I just think like, again, it falls into the idea of like, Lisa, what is she doing? And what is Dean doing? And what is Ben thinking? I don't know. If you're a kid, and then some just random guy shows up, and he's like, I don't know, "I'm gonna be here for a while," and then he's drinking whiskey like, on the dinner table, it's like, have some courtesy. Have some decorum. I don't know. What do you think.

C: I think it is probably- like, on best behavior, one probably wouldn't do that. I think there are different norms in different families about like, drinking and the presence of children and all that. I think it's fine that he's doing it.

G: You think so? Okay.

C: And I don't think that Ben would necessarily think too much of it. I think that it speaks to a level of trust that Lisa has in Dean that I don't think is entirely earned. Yeah. I mean, it is kind of odd that it's the last shot of the season. [G: Yeah.] But I guess the point is just Dean's in a lot of pain, and he won't be able to fully commit himself to this. I think that the discomfort might be like, it's purposeful. [G: Intentional.] Yeah.

G: Okay. But the discomfort makes sense, you think?

C: I think you are supposed to- I think they do make it pretty clear that he's like, not looking at Ben while he's drinking. I think it is meant to be like a thing where he's not able to commit himself fully. But also, they are so in love with the idea that it's a given that they're just going to be a family now that it is kind of hard to know if the discomfort is intentional. I think the point is just Dean is in pain is the main point, and I don't know if there's an additional point.

G: But they also just drink whiskey all the time, so it could mean absolutely nothing. [laughs]

C: Yeah, I mean, they drink beer more than whiskey, but yeah, they do drink whiskey sometimes.

G: Yeah. Okay, well. [laughs] We zoom out of the house, and then there's like, a streetlight, and then it zaps out, and then there's someone beneath it. And then, like, we go to that someone. [laughs] And it's Sam, watching this entire thing. He's already back! [both laugh]

C: No, I'm so confused.

G: [laughing] It's been like, a day.

C: How was he in there for 200 years if this is tonight? Unless it was later?

G: I've been saying. I have been saying.

C: Is this meant to be like, a time skip?

G: I don't think it's a time skip. I think it's like, at most three days later. [laughs]

C: Okay, 'cause I thought this was like, tonight, right? Which means that Sam was in there for, like, what? Five hours? [both laughing] Well, okay, let's see. This confrontation happened at high noon, and he went in at like, around 12:07 or whatever because Michael was only gone for like, a few minutes. And then it's night. It's like, dinner time. So it's like, 7PM? So Sam was in there for like, seven hours?

G: Yeah, it is so incredibly funny to me that like, I don't know. When Cas was talking about- or when Anna was talking about- or I don't know, when the both of them were talking about  how Cas got Dean out of Hell, Cas was like, "Oh, yeah, I lost an entire garrison. It was so difficult. We were like, on a time crunch, and we still didn't make it." And then he got Sam out in seven hours? [laughs]

C: Wait, wait, that implies- were they fighting through Hell for the whole like, four months or whatever while Dean was gone? Two months? [G: I think so, yeah.] Okay, I mean, I guess the Cage- maybe there's a shortcut to it.

G: [laughs] He just literally opened it up again with the rings and then just went in. So true.

C: No, that's true, because Dean pocketed the rings, right? So Cas could have just slipped them out of his pocket and done the incantation and then went in.

G: So true. Go, Cas.

-

G: Well, what did we think about this episode? I found it interesting. [C: It's fine.] I found it fun to talk about. I found it fun to watch. I found it pivotal. [C laughs] I found it influential. [laughs]

C: I found it fine. [G laughs]

G: Etc. Okay, Best Line/Worst Line. I would say my best line are the combo of Dean being like, "It's okay, it's okay, I'm here." and then Sam going, "It's okay. I got him." Like, those two lines, you know? I don't know. I think it's the "It's okay" part of it where they're like, trying to comfort each other where, you know, for Dean, it's like, "It's okay. You're not gonna die alone." For Sam, it's like, "It's okay. I'm going to be able to do this thing," which I think also reflects, like, their perspective on their roles and their priorities, etc.

C: Yeah, yeah, that's nice.

G: Wow! Analysis. [laughs] I'm so annoying! Okay, let's go.

C: I don't think I have any analyses. Best lines- I don't know. I think Lucifer was appropriately creepy with "All those times you ran away, you weren't running from them. You were running towards me." [G: Towards me!] And I think Cas was very cute when he went, "Oh, you want me to lie. It's gonna be okay!" [laughs]

G: So true. He is cute. I think my worst line is like, when Michael was like, "After what you've done?" [both laugh] or whatever, and then just never elaborated. It just makes Michael sound so vindictive.

C: Yeah. I didn't like when Dean called Cas a maybe slur.

G: Oh, yeah. He did call Cas a maybe slur. [C laughs] Spreadsheets. Okay. Misogyny, there is, and it is fundamental to the episode.

C: Yeah. But also, are we gonna end up putting points in every Season 6 episode where Lisa is present? Or should we just get all the Lisa points out of our system right now?

G: I think we can figure out what they're doing and how they're doing it, etc. Like, I think we can find a way to interface with nuance, etc. [C: Yeah.] I think the misogyny here is three. Yeah?

C: Yeah, that makes sense to me. Go for it.

G: Racism, I think, is 0?

C: Yes, I don't remember anything.

G: And homophobia. I do think that is here.

C: Yeah, I think "junkless sissy" should count as a homophobia. It's also a transmisogyny, but that would be included under misogyny, and we already gave it 3.

G: I think it's a 3. I think 1 and 2 is like, casual stuff. This one feels elevated from casual.

C: Huh. I mean, he calls Sam a pansy in Season 2, also, right? What did we give that?

G: I don't know. What episode is that?

C: Uh, "Tall Tales"? Season 2. Oh, we were only giving points per occurrence and not magnitude back then, so.

G: A failure in our duty and action.

C: I feel like I'm fine with a 3. I feel like I wouldn't have gone for a 3. I would have gone for a 2. But I'm fine with a 3.

G: Okay, let's do it. Okay, IMDb. Who's winning? Or we shouldn't say because, like- It's me. But like- [laughs] Next week. It's for next week's season ender wrap up. [C: Yeah.] Okay, so what's your guess?

C: It's high. [G: Of course.] 9.4.

G: Ah. Can I be honest? That is also my guess. Do you wanna guess something different for it?

C: So you're just gonna win because you're currently winning, and we'll have the same point differential if you vote the same as me? [G: Yeah.] I see.

G: Yeah, no, but I'm honest! I'm honest. I have integrity as a person and a podcaster.

C: You know what? I'm gonna change mine. I'm just gonna go big or go home. [G: Okay.] I'm gonna say 9.6, even though that's absolutely wrong.

G: How about I go bigger than you? [laughs]

C: No! [laughing] You're free to do whatever you want.

G: Okay, I'm going to go 9.7. No, I'm gonna go 9.8. Go big or go home. [C laughs] Is that too high? I feel like that's insane.

C: It's definitely not a 9.8, and I don't even think it's a 9.6, which is why I said a 9.4.

G: Okay, I'll put 9.8

C: What I should be doing is, I should be calculating the biggest point differential- or the smallest point differential I need from you in order for my average to actually reach yours, right?

G: Okay, let's do it. Sure, yeah. Figure it out.

C: I just think that'll take long, and I don't want to, actually. [G laughs] But that would be the right strat.

G: Okay, let's see. Okay, I'll see it now. So your guess is 9.6, and mine is 9.8. If it's lower than 9.6, you have a pretty good chance, I think, maybe. [C: Maybe.] I don't think it's lower than- I think it's actually exactly 9.6. [C: Really?] Yeah. Okay, [both] let's see. Oh! It's a 9.7! [laughing]

C: Oh my god! Look at that! World peace. Well.

G: World is a wonder, even. [C: Yeah.] Well, there's many user reviews.

C: Yeah, I'd assume so.

G: People enjoy it. "5 years in the making. Amazing." "The finale that should have been." Shut the fuck up. But it's true. [laughs] But you shouldn't say it!

C: "Most of us can't say enough about how terrific the show was, with the exception of one classy genius who felt that the episode was too emotional and that Dean should end up with a skanky chick." What is the- I don't understand. I want to know the source. I want to know what they're summarizing as this.

G: This one did make me feel feelings. This was in November 20, 2020- which is November 21 for you guys. It's just November 20 for me. It goes, "Sam and Dean and Cas and Bobby deserved this ending. An ending with emotion and meaning." And I'm like, "Aw!" The finale was so bad. [C: Yeah.] Yeah. At least you're gonna give a fuck, [laughs]  just because it's so horrible. [C: It's true.] "Power of love." So true. "It all started with a car." Yeah, I think there's like, a lot of people after the finale going like, "This is what the ending should have been like." I don't know. People are just into it. Oh, this one says, "I don't get the hype." Let's see, what's your input? "I would say the episode was beautifully done and written well, especially how it started with talking about Baby, but as a serious ending, I don't like it because it has one brother in Hell and one above, and just like the actual series finale that I also don't like, it's not how I would want it to end." That's your problem! [C laughs] People are into it. This one says, "Anticlimactic. The show is starting to run out of ideas. [C: What?] It has done that a long time ago."

C: Well. It's gonna be a while.

G: That's pretty much it. Wow, we are done with Season 5!

C: Someone keeps calling the Lucifer!Sam "Lusamfer," [laughs] which is kind of fun.

G: Isn't it Samifer? Isn't that what they say?

C: Samifer's also the ship name, though, isn't it? [G: Ah.] So I feel like some people use it to say the guy, and some will use it to say the ship name. Lusamfer is a way around that, I suppose. [laughs]

G: Yeah. Okay, well, that’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be doing a Season 5 wrap-up episode with a very special guest, so check that out, wait for it, etc.

C: Yeah. [G: Yeah!] Not like, a celebrity, though. Does it make it seem like it’s a celebrity? They’re a celebrity to me, but they're not a genuine celebrity.

G: They're a celebrity to me, but they’re not Misha Collins. [C: Yeah.] Thank god. [both laugh] Yeah. Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts.

C: Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, which is where our outtakes live, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com.

G: You can email us any feedback, comments, or inquiries at bustyasianbeautiespod@gmail.com. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

[guitar music]

[godsofhumanity]

SUPERNATURAL 8.16 “Remember the Titans” | REVIEW

OVERVIEW: Sam and Dean Winchester encounter a man who seems to die once a day and then get resurrected only to discover that he is the Greek titan Prometheus.

RATING: 6/10. i have been WAITING to get up to this episode because i like Prometheus a lot!! storyline was meh but the characterisations were pretty good, i thought.

AVAILABLE AT: prime

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THINGS I LIKED:

Prometheus. i like the way his character was very humble and calm. he wasn't violent just.. sort of well-adjusted. and i think that suits Prometheus' character really well.

the idea of Prometheus' curse being transferred to his mortal son.. that was pretty tragic but Prometheus' whole family is so cursed so i thought it wasn't too much of a stretch.

also, physically speaking, Prometheus' actor may not have been Greek, but he was a believable Prometheus to me.

Prometheus forgetting why he saved humanity and Sam having a bit of a heart-to-heart where he's like "you did the right thing, even though the cost was huge"... Prometheus is like, my favourite Greek guy ever.. he's so good and kind and self-sacrificing... and finally there's a character here acknowledging that.

additionally- Prometheus is the guy who gave up everything to save the world, and Sam & Dean are supposed to be the mortal men who give up everything to save the world, so i feel it was very natural for Prometheus, Sam & Dean to meet each other and work well together. many times, the Winchesters meet these ancient deities and they're just blood-thirsty and vile, and need to die, but that wasn't the case in this episode and i like that. it made sense.

Zeus' portrayal!!!!!!!!! again, not Greek, but his black suit, the clean beard,, the cockiness. a very believable Zeus i thought. he also stomps his foot and lightning erupts to throw back the Winchesters and Prometheus- -and it just looked cool. very nice.

another thing about Zeus-- it's pretty refreshing to see him in media and for once he's not flirting with anybody/anything. this is Zeus in full rage, Zeus as a king, Zeus as a deliverer of justice. it was good.

Sam acknowledging Artemis as their like "patron" since she's the goddess of the Hunt. also Sam making a joke that Artemis and Prometheus' relationship is unknown because she never told Homer or Hesiod.. that was a funny little nod, i appreciated it.

THINGS I DIDN'T LIKE:

the invention of Drakopoulos as an Ancient Greek hunter who tangled with Zeus back in the day... this kinda.. the name was supposed to be humorous but honestly i didn't laugh. it was just kinda out of the blue-- there weren't any dragons in the episode so idk why they named him that. i know they needed him to move the plot along but meh.

Artemis. Artemis' number one defining characteristic is that she's a virgin huntress. and in this episode, she's head over heels in love with Prometheus.... but in the lore, Artemis and Prometheus don't have like any interaction at all. if she was Athena, this may have made a little more sense, but yeah no. not Artemis. it was just strange. also with the full leather outfit and all-- she was obviously supposed to be some sort of badass spy girl but Artemis hates being "womanly" idk. it just didn't make sense.

also ain't no way Artemis is the one to kill Zeus. that's delusional. she couldn't even defeat Hera.. how's she going to defeat Zeus with her bow and arrow lmfaooo.

[bluephoenixdruidicprincess]

Supernatural 15x20, Carry On -- Review

Alright, we’re at last here. I can’t believe it. And what a waste of time that episode was! It seems “the finale” did indeed keep to task with the rest of the season, in a season of “meh” episodes, the finale continued to be a “meh” episode. Actually, I can’t even really call this a finale. Last week’s episode was the finale, this episode was the epilogue, a very subpar fanfiction-esque epilogue. And I make the fanfiction comment with a very heavy heart. I love fan fiction, I love that we can continue the stories we love through fan fiction and sometimes, a lot of fanfiction can be better than its source material. But also, sometimes, fanfiction has a tendency to be one-note. Fanfictions have a tendency to focus and hone in on one aspect of the story and tell just THAT story and the epilogues in these fanfics usually reflect that. Very one-note, only give regard to the main thing they honed in on the story. And there’s nothing really wrong with that but the weight of the story does feel less and kind of empty, the story doesn’t feel fleshed out and so in the epilogue, you don’t really feel a sense of closure and that’s what this episode felt like...and the series finale for a legacy show like this shouldn’t feel like that. 

But let’s cease with the rambling and get on with this. There will probably be spoilers, So definitely if you haven’t seen the episode yet and you don’t want to be spoiled, skip this post. Although granted, I don’t know how you’re online reading this and also have somehow managed to avoid spoilers. Teach me your ways, please!

As I’m sure most of you are aware, the finale isn’t great. It’s not even really a particularly strong episode. I felt things watching it and even cried a couple of times but that’s because my sensitive ass will cry at anything even slightly tear-jerky. I definitely understand why a lot of the fandom doesn’t like this episode. But also unfortunately, I’m not too surprised that the episode turned out like this. Disappointed but not surprised. When you think about how networks operate, it makes sense. Though our fandom is big and vocal, all that matters to the CW execs is that people come back to the CW. Now granted, some of us may be forever turned off to the CW because of this incident but those numbers aren’t going to mean anything to the CW. Because as large as we are as a fandom, the general audience is much larger and that’s who the CW execs are trying to keep. The general audience, a lot of them aren’t going to be paying attention to the finer story beats, to the subtext, to the meta, to the foreshadowing. No, the general audience just wants something that’s mildly entertaining they can turn the tv onto while they cook dinner or wash the dishes or whatever. It hurts but this finale was not meant for the fandom. It was for the general audience. And if I take my fandom goggles off, I can see how this finale might be satisfying to the general audience who don’t really have too big of an investment. 

But also looking at this episode from a critical standpoint, I can also tell this episode  is empty, its lacking in emotion. And I say this as the girl that cried mid-way through this episode. Because while I was crying and I was sad for Sam but then I was also happy for Sam, even though I was crying through these moments, I also wasn’t feelaing anything beyond the base emotion of happiness for a character or sadness for a character. When a story makes me get emotional I’m crying because of all sorts of conflicting emotions and I’ll forever go back to those tear-jerker moments whenever I feel like I need a good cry -- Tommy’s death on Arrow, Jenna’s death in TVD, Fred’s death in Angel, the Season 2 finale of The 100. All of those things not only made me cry because I felt things for the characters but also because there was a story element that reverberated inside of me, something about it made me feel alive and glad to be alive so I could experience it. So while I was crying for Sam’s loss of Dean, while I was crying tears of happiness when Sam was finally living the life he always wanted, the story felt empty to me and I couldn’t truly be happy with what I was feeling. And when it comes right down to it, while this finale meets all the basic standards it needs to in order to be a finale, that’s all it does. There isn’t anything special about it. It makes callbacks to how it began, it has just enough nostalgia to get by and it creates an ending for the characters. But that’s all it does. It meets the bare minimum to be a finale and I”m disappointed in that. I haven’t been loving this show for a few seasons, really since season 12, but I still kept on hoping the show would pull itself together long enough for at least a memorable season finale. As bad as they were, I will still always remember the finales for Game of Thrones or How I Met Your Mother. Supernatural’s finale was so uninspired, I don’t even really care to remember it. 

But let’s talk about what happened in this finale. First, some good points. I liked that we did see Sam openly mourning Cas and Jack. My Sastiel heart lived for that. And I’m also very happy Sam was able to live the life he wanted. I’m also very happy that Cas is not still stuck in the Empty, however, I do admit that if he was broken out so easily, it really kind of detracts from the initial sacrifice he made for Jack and for Dean and Sam. 

Things that I did not like, that essentially things were just kind of the same as in Season 1. You know, Sam gets his apple pie life but I kind of wish there was a little more of spark to that kind of life. Like this was something we talked about my blog a long time ago about a possible endgame for Sam but let’s say the Winchesters did kind of open like an organization for hunting monsters. Like, Sam could handle the legal aspects of something like that. He could go to law school and he could represent victims that were put in tough situations because their bodies were possessed or their on the line for a crime they didn’t commit because no one believes that a monster killed their loved one. So I just kind of wish we had gotten kind of a catch to Sam living his apple pie life. Living that life, doing what he always wanted to do, but also still helping people the way that Sam feels he needs to help people. So I wish we’d kind of gotten something more along those lines. I also don’t like that it takes Dean actually dying for Sam to feel like he has Dean’s permission to finally live that life. At first, I was going to feel sorry for Dean for dying in such a dumb way, but screw that. Dean put all of his self-hatred and baggage and dragged Sam down with him and made Sam feel like crap for even dreaming about something different. So Dean, you and that rusty nail deserve each other. I don’t even want to ship you with Crowley anymore. The ship you deserve is with Rusty Nail. 

So uh, let’s talk about Dean now and the return of Jenny the Vampire. I  completely forgot she existed. But yeah, she was a thing but she’s so loosely connected to Dean and Dean’s character arc, it’s like, there’s a lot of other monsters that would make more sense for Dean to die at the hands of. Like in Season 7 I believe, when Dean killed Sam’s friend in front of her son and he told the son that when he gets older, feel free to come after Dean. That would make more sense and have a kind of literary weight to it. Dean’s death would’ve been the result of his own actions and decisions years prior when he killed that woman on a whim. Dean and Sam could’ve come back from the vampire nest, after dropping the boys off, maybe they stopped at gas station to get some food and as Dean is walking around the corner to a bathroom, that’s when the now grown kid pops up in front of him and as Dean has a flashback to the kid and what he did to that kid, the kid stabs him in the heart like Dean did to his mother. 

Now the two brothers ending up in heaven together and presumably spending eternity together, while this may be a wincest or bibros wet dream, to me, I don’t know, it kind of feels pathetic. I mean, don’t get me wrong. I love my brothers and I absolutely would go to the ends of the earth for them and I will mourn their deaths, but I also don’t want to be defined by them. I don’t want to feel like they’re so intrinsically a part of me that I need them in order to be truly happy or completed. While it might be nice to see them when I go to heaven, I would hope that I had grown to a point that there are also other things to me that are important that I would like to experience in heaver, you know? Plus, this whole ending feels like a slap in the face for what the show is most well-known for: found family and “family don’t end in blood”. The finale basically says, yes, family does end in blood, my blood is my soulmate basically. And I don’t really like that. 

Let’s talk about Cas and I don’t even have to be a Destiel shipper to be angry about how Cas was treated. I understand what they did in 15x18, and it does make a certain amount of literary sense, but considering there was no sense of closure to the act and it really kind of falls flat. And it makes you think, “so if what Cas needed in order to be truly happy was to admit that he loved his family” well, didn’t he already do that back in season 12? So it just kind of makes 15x18 feel kind of pointless. Yes, 15x18 was something that needed to happen for Cas and it made literary sense but that was only the first part of what his ending needed to be. The second part of his ending was hearing it back. Not necessarily a love confession from Dean (you all know Destiel is a thing of the past for me, I don’t ship them anymore) but what Cas needed to hear back was that his family loved him. We know they loved him but his own insecurities stopped him from truly feeling and believing it. And that’s the part the show missed and that’s what makes 15x18 fall flat and it makes Cas’s character arc feel incomplete. 

And also, it’s really sad to think that Sam never got to say goodbye to Cas. That’s something that Sam must feel very unresolved about and why he just lets the guilt eat up at him about it. My Sastiel heart needs one more final SamCas heart to heart. 

But I think that’s all I got for this episode. What grade would I give this episode. A big solid F-...I ‘m just kidding. It wasn’t that bad but nor was it anything great either. As I mentioned, the finale did what it needed to in order tom meet the bare minimum requirements for a finale, so honestly, I’d probably give this episode a D+. It meets the standards but it also doesn’t execute them very well so I don’t feel comfortable giving it a C. 

[jerrylevitch]

Hi , can you shed some light on this book that was an expose on Jerry. It was destined for release I believe around 4/5 years ago . I understand that Richard Lertzman has unfortunately died, but William Birnes ( who co write the book) is still with us. So I’m curious as to why the book was scrapped. Was pressure put on the publishers by Jerry’s family, not to print it?? I know there was several delays initially for the release date. Hope you can provide us with an explanation, thanks

There is no love lost for Rick Lertzman who I openly despised, and had open arguments with online for 4 yrs. I feel sorry for his death though. I guess what I learned from his passing and reading certain comments, is that he didn't realize that he was a very polarizing figure just like Jerry. Many people that interacted with him online found him to be rude, abrasive, a liar, and a denier of facts. As in he denied books (Patti Lewis' book) existed, or video footage existed and tried to gaslight me. I showed him the book, and he changed his tune.

This is a story about Danny Thomas that is an urban legend and he was choosing to apply it to Jerry, when it has been applied to lots of celebs who were under glass tables being shitted on by hookers.

When I told him that was a story indeed attached to Danny Thomas, as well as other inaccuracies he was spewing and wanted his sources, he said that he knew the real Jerry and didn't need sources.

Sure he didn't need a source for anything he wasn't present for, which was everything in JL's life. He met him once or twice?

Above is another example of him verbally abusing listeners or people in the comment section, that disagreed with him.

Yet there are people out there that find him as such: "He will be remembered as the brilliant, kind, funny author / historian / podcaster and larger than life personality that he was." And yes there were people calling him the kindest person they had ever met in the comment section on his fb page. Every one of us is the villain in someone's story, just know that. Of course people say sometimes about Jerry "Well he was nice to me." I think that goes for many people, unless we're 100% kind to everyone. I think some people can still hate us for whatever reasons even then. lol Rick Lertzman is certainly a villain in my story.

Too bad Rick couldn't be more understanding of celebrities and mental health. Too bad he couldn't see that he too could be an asshole.

Anyway....

I'm not sure if there was any pressure by Jerry's family not to print it. Honestly, I kept doubting he even wrote the book completely. The announcement on the Life and Times of Hollywood fb page seems to imply he didn't finish. Did I mock Rick on Twitter for him changing release dates for 4 yrs? Yes I did. I also mock Rick Sapphire for his book, which also seems to change release dates every 6 months. Rick Sapphire has a vendetta against Jerry, ever since he was fired for stealing. I have called him out on fb and am surprised that he hasn't blocked me yet for calling him a thief.

Rick Lertzman had no problem telling outright lies about Jerry, so I wouldn't have trusted anything in his book. He once posted that Dean broke up the team basically because "How bisexual hijinks destroyed his partnership with Dean Martin!"

HOLLYWOOD CLOSET! Jerry Lewis — Screen Legend’s Secret Gay Life How bisexual hijinks destroyed his partnership with Dean Martin! - The Life & Times of Hollywood (thelifeandtimesofhollywood.com)

That one makes me laugh to some degree, but it's really just offensive. Also there was not source or piece of evidence for any gay or bisexual hijinks. Sad. I was really looking forward to it. lol Also he clearly thought gay and bisexual are the same thing. They are not.

He posted absolute tabloid trash at times; and his copy and paste writing style on his blog posts which annoyed people, also transferred to his books apparently. I just saw some reviews a few weeks ago on his Mickey Rooney book.

Also he yelled at my friend once about The Day the Clown Cried. HE LITERALLY TRIED TO SAY THAT IT WAS NEVER FILMED OR THAT HE FINISHED PRINCIPAL PHOTOGRAPHY. I guess the footage from the films, that I inadvertently released from the Der Clown documentary wasn't real, and it didn't go viral. He and Harry Shearer go to the same school of lies and gaslighting. Let's just say I'm glad that his book won't come out. I don't like that he passed away, to prevent it from being released. I feel sorry. The man lost like 2 wives and a son or something within ten yrs. Maybe that's why he was bitter.

I think any factual and non-factual garbage on Jerry will come out in Rick Sapphire's book. I think both will be in there just to hurt Jerry, like Rick has continually done for over 15 yrs. So if you're looking forward to garbage, it will all be there.

[supernaturalnovelsandmore]

Supernatural Novel: The Unholy Cause

Welcome to my review of the fifth Supernatural novel, The Unholy Cause

Author: Joe Schreiber

Timeline: Set after Episode 5.08 Changing Channels but before Episode 5.16 Dark Side of the Moon

Location: Mission's Ridge, Georgia

Synopsis: As the pressure mounts for the upcoming apocalypse, Sam and Dean head to the historic town of Mission's Ridge, GA, where the Civil War is less about the past and more about the present. With interference from Castiel, demons, and Judas Iscariot himself, how can Sam and Dean prevent a major catastrophe from befalling this small town?

Review: ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Warning: Spoilers abound!

After the last book, I was really hoping to see an improvement in this one, and boy did I! I've finally hit the Supernatural tie-in novel I was hoping to read from the beginning! It read like an actual episode, I could hear the actors speaking through the character's words, and I really couldn't find anything that contradicted canon.

In addition, the actual storyline was compelling and the side characters interesting. With the other novels I've reviewed, it's taken me most of the day to read them because I kept getting distracted. This one, I read straight through without stopping. I love reading a book like that!

Side note: This novel does dive in to Christian theology and the story of Judas Iscariot (who betrayed Jesus). If you are uncomfortable delving into that portion of Christianity, you may not want to read the book or this review (though my review notes about that will be minimal).

Now, since I don't have any canon vs. non-canon comparisons to make, today's review is simply going to be a list of my favorite scenes and how certain scenes relate to what's going on during this period in Season 5.

Cameo!

Sam and Dean are informed of the case by one Rufus Turner! He's only in it for a brief bit, but he's still funny as heck asking the police to pay his dry-cleaning bill.

We get a nice character introduction of enigmatic (clueless) Castiel who's trying to heal Civil War reenactors who are understandably frightened of him. He's still searching for God at this point, but we also get this nice character beat for him:

"I walked the battlefields of the South a hundred and sixty years ago," Castiel replied, a faraway look entering his eyes. "I moved among the men and brought their souls to glory. And now..." Something moved over his face for just an instant, so rare and brief that Dean almost didn't catch it; a flicker of hope. "And now," he repeated, "I'm healing again."

Of course, Dean has to explain that none of the reenactors actually need healing and he goes back to being determined to find a 'First-order witness' - someone who broke bread with Jesus Christ.

I found this part surprising within the book, but as I thought about it, it made more sense. The TV series has to tread a very careful line with Christianity so as not to offend a bunch of viewers, but the books have a much smaller audience and can take these liberties. Personally, I was fine with it. They didn't go too deep and stuck with the witness being Judas (who doesn't exactly have a great reputation to begin with).

There's a fantastic brotherly moment where Sam shares the sheriff's name (Jack Daniels) and they then go back and forth trying to guess what this Jack person is like i.e., fat vs. skinny, bald vs. hairy...

Dean: "Nam vet. Buford Pussar type. From Walking Tall." Sam: "Deliverance refugee. Civil citations all over his desk."

One of things I love about this book is the brother's relationship. This banter and other character beats really feel authentic as opposed to the prior novels. (I won't spoil what the sheriff is actually like - needless to say, they play a major role in the book.)

Just a few pages later from this great banter, we're back to the drama as Sam and Dean argue about a nightmare Sam had that he can't remember, but which could be relevant to the case.

"What's this about Dean?" Sam demanded, "Is it about you not trusting me? Because if it is, there's not a whole lot of places we can go from there." "Yeah, you're my brother," Dean said. "But you're also Lucifer's prom dress, and if he's seeding your dreams with hints about the master plan, then maybe it might be a good idea for you to look at 'em as close as possible. That's all I'm saying."

And of course, Dean gets concerned about Sam as they split up to cover more ground. It's music to my ears! There are a number of other conversations like this that really emphasize the strained relationship Sam and Dean display in Season 5.

Another surprising character beat is the influence of Lucifer on Sam because as he's doing research at the local historical society, Sam (and the historian) are surprised to find out he can read Coptic, an ancient Egyptian language. It startles Sam and once again emphasizes how different he is.

At a particularly gruesome crime scene (a mass grave), there's a brief moment with Dean that really shines as he looks down on the skeletons in the mass grave and finds a similarity to what he did in Hell:

Because that was what he did after spending years down there, doing what he'd done... Through sheer force of will, Dean shoved those notions aside...Now more than ever he didn't want that experience contaminating the way he looked at the world... not that he had a choice. Hell had been his Vietnam. It had stamped its mark on him for all eternity, and no amount of denial or self-imposed ignorance was going to change that.

There's an additional moment of traumatized Dean that I wish they could have shown in the tv series:

Sam: "Are those bloodhounds?" Dean didn't answer... When Sam finally caught a look at his brother's face, he saw that Dean's cheeks and forehead had gone absolutely white, as if every drop of blood had been sucked away... "They're not hellhounds, Dean, they're just dogs..." Dean didn't answer. He was still listening to the barking and howling noises coming closer, crashing through the undergrowth. He seemed paralyzed by the sounds.

There are more to these Dean passages, (too much to copy), but I really like that we see actual effects of past experiences.

There's also a nice scene with Sam and a young teenager that really highlights his ability to connect with kids around that age (of which we see later in the TV series):

"My brother and I grew up without a Mom, too," Sam said... "It wasn't always easy... Not everybody gets that." "I still dream about her sometimes, you know? Even though I was young when she... when it happened," Nate blinked at Sam. "Weird, huh?" "Are they good dreams?" "Yeah." "Then it's good. That's your way of remembering her."

The last third of the book is very action-oriented and has multiple instances of hurt Sam and hurt Dean, with the requisite caring from each brother.

Once again, I've gone on too long, but I'll end with a couple of favorites: Humor:

The sheriff glanced out the window, (referring to Baby) "And haul that piece of crap car to the impound lot. I don't want it cluttering up my street." "Woah!" Dean snapped, a sudden rush of anger rising in his face. "Watch your damn mouth. You can't just---"

Drama:

"This is blood money," Sam reached into his pocket and pulled out the Shekel. "Bobby says the only way anybody gets their hand on this..." The rest of the sentence was getting stuck in his chest, and he made himself finish it, "is by betraying someone you love." Dean stared at him. "Dean..." "Look," Dean broke in. "Don't get too hung up on it, okay? It doesn't necessarily mean anything," he stood up and brushed off his jeans. "Whatever happens between us, we'll deal with it then..."

Thanks again for reading! I'll be back again next week with War of the Sons!

[caranfindel]

Recap review 15.16: “Drag Me Away (From You)"

Is this title a reference to "Africa" by Toto?

THEN: Mrs. Butters! I hope you're enjoying your life out there in the woods. Other worlds are gone. Dean is tired of being a hamster. Jack's going to die. Cas told Dean and is looking for another way.

NOW: A guy named Travis checks into a crappy hotel. He has requested a particular room - "doctor's orders." He was here a long time ago. "Welcome back," says the not-very-welcoming clerk. I think we've been here before too; this corridor looks awfully familiar. Travis psychs himself up to unlock the door. The room is ugly and orange and classic Supernatural, in an early seasons way that I miss. Travis drinks whiskey out of a bottle and then gets a text from someone named Caitlin, who is worried about him going back to that place. Travis fiddles with a large pendant and tries to convince himself that whatever happened in this room wasn't real but GUESS WHAT, TRAVIS. A creepy dead child emerges from the closet, causing Travis to drop his bottle, and holds the broken whiskey bottle up to Travis's throat. Screams of horror!

Title card!

Impala. The guys are seven hours away from "back here," wherever "here" is. Sam defends their trip, saying "Travis was a friend." Dean expositions for us that Travis cut his own throat with a whiskey bottle (hmmmm!) and that they haven't seen him in 25 years. So, ten years before the pilot? (Ignoring the skipped years, as we always do.) When Sam was 12 and Dean was 16? That's a long time ago. Dean complains that they've missed funerals for closer friends - friends who were hunters, which tells us Travis was not - but Sam says they don't have much else to do right now, since Chuck is "off world," Jack's hanging around the bunker waiting for Billie's orders, "and Cas just bailed, I guess. He didn't say anything to you? About why he left?"

Oh, Sam! Your brother is a lying liar who LIES! Dean denies he and Cas had a fight (and lord, I love that Sam asked, considering their pointless tiff at the beginning of the season) and says it's just "Cas being Cas." Right on cue, Cas texts Dean.

Did you tell Sam yet?

Sam berates Dean for looking at his phone while driving, which is a little funny, since Dean routinely does things that are slightly more dangerous, but he has a point.

But seriously, let's unpack this. Cas doesn't want Jack to die. And yet Cas didn't enlist as an ally the only other person who would try as hard as he would to stop that from happening. He's had all this time to call Sam, to text Sam, and instead he's just asking Dean if Dean told him? Why?

(I know why. Stupid plot reasons.)

It's going to take a lot to drag me away from you; there's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do.

Crappy hotel. We haven't actually been informed of their location, other than it's more than seven hours away from the bunker. (I know. No one else cares. Move along.) "It looks smaller," says Sam. So they've been here, not just to this mysterious unnamed town, but to this actual hotel. “Yeah, or we're bigger," says Dean. So they haven't been here since they were young. And it must not have been a great visit, because neither is thrilled about being back.

The guys open their car doors, and then we see two pairs of knock-off Converse exiting the car, which is nicely done. Teenchesters! It's January 1993, and the boys are being dropped off at the hotel/beer store. Sadly, Dean isn't played by Dylan Everett. I know I hated on the kid when he was in Bad Boys, but the way he channeled Jensen in the Hansel and Gretel episode just made me fall in love with him. Young Dean is annoyed that he doesn't get to go on the hunt with John, and points out that Sam doesn't need him, since he himself was babysitting Sam when he was the age Sam is now. "I'm pretty sure that's illegal," says Sam, as if he didn't live through A Very Supernatural Christmas and has forgotten that yes, Dean did babysit him for multiple days at a time when he was 12. I kinda like young Sam here. He's no Colin Ford, but he's not bad.

Sam's being cagey about wanting to just go to the room, and trying to hide something under his jacket. Badly. So of course Dean grabs it. It's a 2-year-old guide to colleges that he stole from their previous hotel. "I thought your imaginary friend told you it was bad to steal," Dean says, and oh, thank you Continuity Fairy for remembering Sully.

Wait? You think you're gonna go to college? Yeah. Why not? Why not? Why? Cause that's what normal people do. Right. Because WE'RE normal. Whatever. We barely go to school. So if you think places like that will even think about letting a dumbass like you in? Come on. This, Sammy? This is our life.

OH SAM. Sad Winchester music plays as Sam unpacks his weapons in the ugly hotel room and contemplates his future, or lack thereof. Meanwhile, Dean is pleased to find an old vending machine in the hallway. The same one was present in the NOW. Probably the same candy from 1993. He presses some buttons and gives it a nudge and voila! Free candy. He's surprised by a teenage girl who tells him to freeze, and I don't really think 16-year-old Dean Winchester would be so nervous just because another teenager caught him stealing from the vending machine. I think he would have laughed it off.

{Sidebar: Drinks cost $1. Isn't that a bit much for 1993 prices? Discuss.}

The girl asks Dean to show her the trick and introduces her little brother, Travis. So first it's weird that she introduces Travis but doesn't give her own name, and second it's weird because oh, holy crap, Travis is a live version of the dead kid from the NOW. So if this is the dead friend Travis, that means he was haunted by... a dead version of him as a child? That's new. I'm into it. The girl introduces herself as Caitlin (Caitlin of the text message!) and says her mother works at the hotel.

2020. Present-day Caitlin sits sadly in a diner. She recognizes Dean instantly, even though earlier this season, people made a big deal about Dean not looking like his 15-year-old ID photo but OKAY. She gets some nice Winchester hugs and tells them how rocky Travis's last 25 years have been. He was in therapy, which helped until he did some "immersion therapy" and checked into (duh duh duh) room 214. She also confesses that the funeral was last week, but she lied because she was afraid they wouldn't come. "I think she's back," she says. So Caitlin hasn't seen them for 25 years, and she knows they hunt monsters, and she thinks they'd be more likely to come because of a funeral for someone they met 25 years ago and haven't communicated with since and not because a monster needs killing but OKAY.

Maybe she just wants to take the time to do some things she never had.

1993. Wait a minute. It just occurred to me that 1993 isn't 25 years ago. That would be 1995. (Someone please check my math. It's not a strong point.) So did Sam and Dean actually see Caitlin and Travis two years after all of this happened? Or are we playing fast and loose with the timeline? Or counting the two missing years somehow?

NO ONE CARES. MOVE ALONG.

1993. Travis tries Dean's vending machine trick, but a scary monster lady inside the machine grabs his hand. When Dean and Caitlin show up, there's no evidence of the scary monster lady, but I bet Travis will never eat another My Delight bar.

2020. Room 214. Sam runs the EMF meter while Dean reads the coroner's report. He calls it "open and shut," because Travis's fingerprints were on the broken bottle. Because, of course, dead child Travis and alive-at-the-time adult Travis had the same fingerprints. Caitlin is still convinced he wouldn't have killed himself. But they've found no EMF, no hex bags, nothing to indicate monsters. Dean thinks coming to this room might have just been too triggering.

1993. Dean has unsuccessfully tried to contact John. Why, asks Caitlin? Because monsters are real and we kill them, says Dean. "It's kind of the family business," he says, giving young Sam a significant look. Don't you forget it, kid. He asks about any other weirdness in town, and it turns out there are three missing children.

2020. Caitlin is disappointed that the Dean who believed in her brother's monster 25 years ago doesn't believe now. But he thinks it couldn't be the same monster, because it preyed on kids. And there are no missing or mysteriously dead kids in town. And he killed it.

1993. The Scooby gang gathers to research the case. Sam, bless his researching little heart, uses candy to mark relevant spots on a map. And there's an abandoned cannery in the area. Bingo! Dean goes off to kill the monster on his own, even though they don't know what it is. He's got a gun and a knife and he figures that will kill whatever it is. Oh, Dean. I don't think your father would agree. He refuses to let Sam come, telling him to stay here and "be normal." Cold, dude. He also rebuffs Caitlin's decision to come. "This ain't the freakin' Goonies. None of you has been on a hunt before. Just stay. I got this."

{Sidebar: Didn't Sam leave Sully to go on a hunt? Wouldn't that have been before this?}

Abandoned cannery. As Dean picks a lock to break in, Caitlin shows up. Girl's got gumption. Although she gives Dean a hard time the entire time, so I don't think she's such a great partner. At one point he tells her to stay back and she actually listens, which is convenient, because it means she doesn't see the pile of things obviously taken from the missing children. Along with a key to their very own hotel, for room 107. He pulls back a tarp, and we don't see what's underneath, but we know it's horrifying. He quickly leaves the room and tells Caitlin he didn't find anything. "She's not here."

While this is happening, Sam and Travis are playing Boggle back at the hotel. See, children, back in the day, we didn't have Words With Friends or Wordscape. We had analog.

Sam comes up with sam kill you now which is gloriously freaky even though you're not supposed to use proper names, and now I want a fic with a ghost threatening Sam through a word game. (Actually, on rewatch,Sam isn't one of the words he found, he just wrote his name at the top of his list.) Travis has come up with an equally chilling set of words: dead death kill you now.

I'm hoping to find some old forgotten words or ancient melodies. But if Dean had been playing, I'm pretty sure he would have found PIE.

Then the board starts jumping and I'm all ready for it to very clearly spell out something very threatening, but all we get are a few minor changes.

But if anybody wants to interpret, I’m here for it.

Then the lights go out, the Boggle game explodes, and the monster shows up behind Travis. She grabs him, but Dean enters just in time. He swipes his knife at her, cutting off several of her fingers. One is wearing a large ring. Then he stabs her and she disintegrates, leaving the ring on the floor. Also, it's the first time I've noticed Dean is wearing the Samulet. Aw. Better days, friends.

2020. Dean stalks down the hall. Something flashes through the hall behind him. "Sam?" he says. Not Sammy. A figure appears at the end of the hall. As the lights flicker, it quickly (creepily!) shows up in front of him. Oh, it's young Dean! Dead version! "Hey, Dean. I've been waiting for you." He nods at a knife in Dean's hand. "You know what you have to do. You failed. Say hi to Travis." Dean sinks to his knees and holds the knife to his abdomen, but before he can plunge it in, we hear Sam say "Dean?" Dean's vision clears and the knife in his hand disappears. So, there was never a knife? Meaning he couldn't have actually committed hara kiri here in the hall? No threat, then? "She's right," he says. "Caitlin's right."

Hurry boy, she's waiting there for you.

Bar. Dean apologizes to Caitlin for not believing her, and blames himself for Travis's death since he didn't kill the monster after all. "Second chances," says Sam, kind of lightly given the circumstances. Sam starts to head out to check the lore, but Dean reveals that the monster has a nest. Which he saw, along with a bunch of bodies, when he was a kid. He didn't tell them "because I'd never seen anything like that before." I actually think he'd probably seen worse at that point, but maybe not a pile of teenage victims. Anyway, he called the cops about the bodies and then "shoved it down the old memory hole." He apologizes to Sam for not telling him earlier.

"No, man, it's okay," says Sam. "I mean, you were just a kid. We were both just kids. And hell, we used to keep a lot of secrets from each other." Yeah, it's a good thing you don't do that any more, isn't it?

You can't hide your lyin' eyes, Dean Winchester. Which is a completely different song, but from around the same time period, so.

Dean says he'll get food while Sam and Caitlin look into the lore. And if I were Caitlin I'd be all, lore, right, but sadly I'm not.

Next we see Dean back at the diner. "Let me do two burger meals, one veggie burger meal, and, cause I know my brother's gonna ask, do you have arugula salad? Or kale?" I love this, I do. Unfortunately, Sammy's gonna get iceberg lettuce. With ranch. As the waitress walks away, she reveals Billie sitting next to Dean, which is also nicely done.

Billie's annoyed that Dean is working a case. She tells him Chuck just destroyed the last of his other worlds, so he'll be back soon. And she's given Jack his final orders to transform him for the Big Bang 2.0.

Yeah, filling him up with your cosmic TNT so he can die. How'd you talk the kid into that one? I told him the truth. Jack killed your mother, and all he wants is your forgiveness. And I surmise that the only way he can get that is ending God and freeing you from the - what did you call it - hamster wheel. Was I wrong?

Oh. Dammit. She's not wrong, and I guess this is why it was so important to let us know a couple of episodes ago that Dean still hasn't quite forgiven Jack. And I see, in my completely unspoiled way, how it's going to play out. Dean's heart will grow three sizes and he'll forgive Jack and decide he doesn't want him dead after all... just like the end of s14. Just exactly like that.

Well. On to better things. Like Sam, in a less orange version of room 214, sitting in front of a computer. Pity he hid this dark red shirt under a jacket. It looks nice. Very nice.

Sleeves rolled up, even. Damn, boy. Bless the rains.

Caitlin says she's sorry this is his life, and asks if he ever wants to be normal. Oh, Caitlin. It seems like a simple question, but it's not. “Well, we help people, you know?" he answers. "Save them." I mean, not your brother, but you can't win them all.

Diner. Billie tells Dean he won't see her again until the end. "According to Chuck's book, I'm not in this part of the story." Billie seems to put a lot of faith in those books of hers, considering that the one about Dean and Michael was completely wrong. {Sidebar: Or was it? Discuss.} She wants his assurance that they don't have a problem, and he is happy to assure her that he wants Chuck dead, damn the cost.

"And your brother?" she asks. And I love the way Dean looks down into his lap, like a little boy caught in a lie, when he says "He'll get there."

A sweet little boy who is a lying liar who lies. You know that you must do what's right, Dean.

Billie is not happy, at all, to hear that Sam isn't in on the plan. That's a loose end, and she doesn't like loose ends. She warns him to get his crap together.

{Sidebar: Have we ever seen Billie happy? Discuss.}

Hotel. Sam figures out the monster is a baba yaga - a witch that feeds on fear. The giant ring she wears is technically her heart, and is the source of her power. Caitlin notices that the ring worn in an old illustration is the same ring Travis had. Must be some kind of scary accurate illustration. Also, Caitlin must have better eyesight than me, because I can't tell anything about a damn ring. Anyway. Their mom found the ring in the vacuum cleaner and gave it to him. The stone was broken, but he liked the ring and wore it on a chain around his neck. He actually had it fixed a few weeks before he fell onto a whiskey bottle. Sam remembers that Dean cut her fingers off, and theorizes that stabbing her didn't kill her, losing her ring did. Apparently the power of the ring was in the stone, then? But Travis presumably replaced the stone? So why would the replacement stone have any power? Anyway, Sam goes on for a while without realizing Caitlin has actually left the room, which is kind of cute. Caitlin goes out to her car and opens a box marked New York State Coroner, so at least we know what state they're in.

(NO ONE CARES. WE KEEP TELLING YOU, NO ONE CARES.)

It contains Travis's last effects, but the ring isn't on its chain. Frustrated, she shut the box and the trunk and oh, crap. There's grown up dead Travis. "Hey, Sis." He holds up the ring. "Are you looking for this?" Scream!

Dean arrives with his bag of iceberg lettuce with ranch dressing and other assorted meals. Sam's on the phone trying to get hold of Caitlin, but she's not answering the phone. He explains to Dean that they didn't kill the baba yaga, they just damaged her source of power. Dean calls the ring her Precious because he knows I love it when he makes Lord of the Rings references. Sam says her nest must be nearby because all of her attacks have happened at the hotel, and the guys split up. First we see Sam at the front desk, where he hears an odd noise. Ooooh, is Sam gonna be the hero? Will Sam be the one who finds the monster? (Spoiler alert: you have seen this show before, right?) No, Sam finds the front desk clerk hiding in the storeroom with a bong.

We do, at least, get a nice anxious swallow as Sam hears only whispers of some quiet conversation. With a bong.

Dean, on the other hand, walks by the haunted vending machine, listens to someone's Casa Erotica rental, and then notices a door swing open in a very menacing way. "I've seen this movie before," he says. Hee! You've been in this movie, dear. Oh, he's in room 214. Except he's suddenly back in the abandoned cannery. But this time when he pulls back the tarp over the monster's nest, the dead kid underneath is Sam. Yikes! He jumps back, horrified. I like it. Finally he finds poor dead grown Travis. He shoots him, but of course it does nothing. Travis, aka the baba yaga, agrees that he normally eats kids, but right now he's starving. Honey, it's okay. You don't have to be starving to want to take a bite out of Dean Winchester. Or just a loving little nibble. We all understand.

In the real world, Sam walks down the hallway. He hears the struggle in room 214 and we see Caitlin unconscious on the bed as Dean fights the witch. Sam runs in, knife drawn, and this is where he gets to kill the monster, right? Ha ha ha nope. He does stab her, though, which distracts her to the point that Dean can remove her ring and crush it. She goes up in green flames. Mission accomplished!

Aftermath. Caitlin thanks Dean and asks if he was scared. "Always am," he says. She remarks that he's changed, since old Dean wouldn't have admitted it. What, a 41-year-old man isn't exactly like the 16-year-old you knew for a few days? Shocking. Then she says "What do they say about getting older? You tell the truth more because you know that lies, they don't make anything better." NO CAITLIN, THEY DON'T SAY THAT. NO ONE SAYS THAT. LITERALLY NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THAT ABOUT GETTING OLDER.

He turned to me as if to say, no, Caitlin, that's not a thing.

1993. Caitlin hugs young Dean. He gives her his number in case anything ever happens that's... "you know." {Sidebar: Cell phones weren't really a thing back in 1993, so what number did he give her? And how did it still catch up with him 25 years later?} Sam asks if he ever found the other victims of the monster and he says he didn't. It's a theme! Then the Impala pulls up, but before they get in, Dean stops Sam and says "About the college thing..." And my heart sank. Because I knew Dean was going to tell him it was okay if he wanted to go to college, that he was good enough and smart enough (and gosh darn it, people like him... sorry, I couldn't resist) and that he'd probably do great. And I did NOT want to hear this bit of retconning. So I was very pleasantly surprised when Dean just said "I don't know, but we do make a good team, right?" Then the boys climb into the Impala. We can only see John's arm, but if they'd let Matt Cohen direct this episode instead of last week's, we could have seen all of him, and that would have been an even more pleasant surprise. Oh well.

2020. Impala. Sam tries to call Cas, and Dean tells him to hang up.

I got an update. While you and Caitlin were researching, Billie paid me a visit. What? It's go time. Chuck's done with all the other worlds and he'll be here any day, and when he does, we gotta act fast. And there's something else. Something else? Jack's gonna die. Apparently it was always part of Billie's plan, Jack's known this whole time. And he's ready to sacrifice himself, so in order to kill God and Amara, Jack has to die. Wait, so Billie just told you this while you were grabbing burgers? No. Cas did, before we left. Before we even got the call about Travis. So you've been sitting on this. What the hell, Dean? I thought we were past stuff like this! I know, Sam- I can't believe you, you know that? I mean, how can you keep me in the dark about something so huge? Because I knew you couldn't handle it! You didn't trust Billie's plan, and then when we found out about Amara, you started second-guessing. You raised these ethical questions! I shouldn't? Jack's gonna kill himself and I should just shut up about it? Yes! No! This is how we end Chuck, okay? This is the only way we'll ever be free! So I'm sorry, Sam, you don't get a choice! We don't get a choice! Oh, WE. ... Look, man- Stop, all right? Just stop. Please. I'm sorry I had to- Don't. Don't. Don't. Just, just drive her. Just drive.

Ouch! Sam's face, when he realizes Dean's been hiding this from him. It makes my heart hurt. And thus we end, on a car ride very different from the one we began with.

Frightened of this thing that I've become.

So, I was pleasantly surprised to get another MotW case with very little mytharc. But not real thrilled to have the brothers at odds. And dumbfounded at Cas's inexplicable failure to talk to Sam about Jack's planned death. (Yes, I know, it's explicable, but "stupid plot reasons" isn't something I accept.) All in all, it could have been worse, I guess. But is "could have been worse" good enough when we're so close to the end? (The irony is that there is at least one Buckleming episode waiting for us, and I'm sure I'll be dying for "could have been worse" after that one.)

Anyway. Please help me stay unspoiled, including episode titles and casting information. And remember, I love you all as sure as Kilimanjaro rises like Olympus above the Serengeti.

[saltygilmores]

Thoughts While Watching Gilmore Girls, Season 1, Episode 18 ("The Third Lorelai")

In my review of this episode on Twitter in 2020 I said, "There was nothing to mock in this episode" and I didn't pen any thoughts on it. Hmm. I'm going to rewatch it anyway. Richard's mother comes to visit. Paris likes Diet Logan but Diet Logan likes Rory and none of that makes any sense. Yep, it's a pretty calm episode. But I very much appreciate a break from the (admittedly mild) drama. So here is a quick breakdown. The Gilmores have a maid named Siri (yes, like the little robot that lives inside the Iphone). I liked this dog statue.

Louise saying "A lady-in-waiting may not be a political office, but at least they get all the sex" is a vibe. Rory tells Tristan that Paris is crazy about him (according to Rory, Paris thinks he's "amazing". Why?) and he should ask her out. He does and she accepts. Oh, this date is totally going to backfire and end up slapping Rory in the face somehow (I can't remember how exactly, but I can see it coming from a mile away). RG: Dean was so special and nice, and he made me nauseous. Well we finally agree on one thing about Dean (the last part). Paris is acting like a shivering chihuaha quaking in her boots over her date with an annoying boy she's a total mismatch with and Rory is the confident one taking Paris under her wing. Huh. It feels weird. LG: I don't care if Rory buys a house or a boat or the Elephant Man's bones.

Nah she'll just steal a boat. Paris left 5 answering machine messages for Diet Logan after their date. What is with this show and excessive answering machine messages? Tristan tells Paris he wants to be "just friends" and Paris is highly displeased. He mentions that Rory set them up. Paris explodes at Rory when she sees her a minute later. Yep, this just hella backfired on Rory Gil. No more shivering chihuahua. When Rory speaks to Diet Logan we are to believe that DL wasn't interested in Paris because he likes "Someone else". Aka Rory. Whatever. The last episode left off with Rory crying into two Costco-sized beach pails of Ben and Jerry's ice cream over her breakup with Dean, but the breakup is only briefly mentioned to Paris and Lorelai doesn't address it at all. She still hasn't given Rory that awful post-breakup speech. Jess arrives in 8 episodes.

[nicolewoo]

I’ve been Dreaming about you

Pairing: Joe Anoa’i X Reader

Warnings: None

Fluff Fluff Fluff

It was a silly radio call in contest.... Win tickets to Smackdown live plus backstage passes. I grabbed my friend, Laura, to go with me.

We were escorted back stage before the show started, and got to see the set up. Our tour guide, Danny,  led us through the arena's backstage area showing us everything from catering to dressing rooms to the gorilla. It was definitely worth going early for the full tour. We learned about how medical set up, how the wardrobe department worked, even a little about the broadcasting. I was eating it all up.

Laura was a little less enthusiastic. In truth, she was only interested in the talent.... particularly Braun Stroman. So when she wasn't paying attention to the tour and noticed an open door, she peeked her head in. I went to pull her back to the tour when my eyes locked with Roman Reign's eyes. He was in the room seated on a table in the back of the room surrounded by other talent. Of course, Dean Ambrose and Seth Rollins were next to him. It was a mere second before the door closed behind us, but it was enough to.... connect? Was that the right word?

Oh please! I was being crazy. Roman can have any girl he wants. I'm sure he was just surprised at seeing a new face backstage or bored of whatever meeting he was in. Either way, I knew that was going to be the best moment of the night. I focused back on the tour guide and enjoyed the rest of our tour.

Then we took our seats ringside. I'd had good seats before, (4th row, 7th row) but I'd never been in the front row before, and we were seated just at the corner of the ramp and the ring. We had the perfect view of everything. Some of the talent even slapped my hand as they made their way down the ramp.

Nia Jax beat Ember Moon in a killer match. Laura nearly squealed when Braun Stroman came out, and I practically had to wipe her mouth as she drooled over his every move. As he slammed Baron Corbin into the mat, I swear I heard her growl in desire. He wasn't my first choice, but if she liked him, that's fine by me.

There was one more match.... The Shield vs Jinder Mahal, Bobby Lashley and Dolf Ziggler. This was going to be one hell of a match, and as the music began and the “heels” started their way to the ring, the crowd got louder. It was infectious. I was getting more excited, as the crowd got hyped.

When The Shield's music hit, the crowd began looking for where they were entering through the crowd. Normally, they were across from the cameras at the top of the first tier of seats. The whole crowd looked there, and then looked around. They were nowhere to be found. As the crowd found them, they turned toward us. I looked behind me to find the Shield headed straight for us. Their normal “security” followed behind with our tour guide, Danny who looked very out of place.

As soon as Roman found me, he locked eyes with me. All three of the Shield members looked upset, but I saw one corner of Roman's mouth quirk up when he saw me. “Is he smiling at you?” Laura asked me. I couldn't answer. I was completely stunned by his eyes. Roman only looked away from me to watch where he was walking. I watched as they jumped the barricade next to us and as Roman stared at me from the ring. “Why are they all looking at you?” Laura asked again.

I tore my eyes away from Roman for a moment to see that she was right, Dean and Seth were looking at me too, although they looked unhappy to see me. “Girl, what the hell is going on?”

I was getting ready to tell her I didn't know when a hand tapped my shoulder, “Y/N,” I turned to find Danny, the tour guide. He handed me a note. I opened it and scanned it quickly.

Please stay after the show. Danny will come get you. I need to talk to you, Roman Reigns.

“What the fuck?” Laura said eyeing the note over my shoulder.

She looked from me to Danny who simply shrugged. “I was just told to give her the note and come get her after the show. He didn't explain it to me, and I've never seen anything like this. Not from Roman” He said. “I'll come back for you after this match.” He said as he walked away.

I looked up to the ring. The Shield was hamming it up.... drinking in the adoration of the crowd, but before taking his corner with his brothers, Roman looked at me again. He mouthed PLEASE to me, and I nodded yes. The corner of his mouth curled up in a smirk again.

The match seemed to go on forever. The fans cheered as the talent put on a great show, and everyone was completely wrapped up in the show.... except me. I was so confused. I was pretty sure Roman looked at me a few more times before he got tagged in. Once he entered the ring though, he was completely focused on what he was doing, which is good. I don't want to see anyone get hurt.  Honestly, I didn't want Roman to get hurt.

I watched as he speared, super man punched and dominated the rest of the match, finally pinning Dolf. As the Shield exited up the ramp, Roman was sure to come to me and hold my hand for a split second before exiting.

It was time. Danny would be by to take us backstairs soon. The wait was frustrating. We watched as the arena emptied out almost all the way. Laura talked about the show and how great it was, but she could tell I was..... what was I? Confused? Shocked? Scared? She could tell I was off... that my mind was backstage already. She tried to distract me, but it didn't work.

I was just about to give up on Danny when I saw him come down the ramp. “I'm sorry I took so long.” He said as he moved the barricade so we could come through. Distracted or not, I was still fan-girling about walking up the ramp, about being backstage, about the whole day. Instead of walking in to the gorilla, Danny took us to a side entrance. We ended up back in the room where I'd first seen Roman.

We were reviewing the pictures Laura had taken of the show when I heard a voice behind me, “Ladies?” I turned to see Seth and Dean. They didn't look mad anymore, but they didn't look happy either. They looked.... leery. “What are you doing here?” Seth asked.

Was I in the wrong place? “I... uh.... Danny brought us here.” I said meekly.

“No. What are you doing at the show tonight? How did you get a tour backstage?” Dean asked rather rudely.

The tone of voice made Laura bristle, and I saw a protective vibe come over her, “She won tickets from a radio station.” She said it as she took a step in front of me like a mama bear protecting her cub.

I stepped in front of her then, “Mr. Rollins, Mr. Ambrose is everything ok?” I asked as nicely as I could.

“Actually,” Seth started, “I'm Colby Lopez. This is Johnathan Good. Mr. Anao'i, that's Roman's name, will be out soon. He is still showering. What’s your name?” Seth sounded much calmer now. “I'm sorry if we sounded like jerks. We're just looking out for our brother.”

I'm sure my confusion showed on my face. “I’m Y/N. What are you talking about?”

“Doll,” It was Dean/Johnathan this time, “Ya gotta understand. Our brother is special. We want to make sure you're not some sort of gold digger.” I waited for him to start laughing, because this was obviously a joke.

“Gold digger?” Mama Bear Laura said, stepping between me and the two men. “All this woman has done is come take a tour and see a show. She won those tickets fair and square.” Her voice got louder the more she talked.

I placed a hand on her elbow, “Calm down, Laura. Let's find out what's happening before we go on the attack. I looked to the other men as I drew Laura back to stand beside me. “Mr. Lopez, Mr. Good, We aren't hiding anything. We don't have some secret agenda. We won tickets, we came, then Danny brought us back here. That's all.”

“Is it?” Seth said turning a chair and straddling it so he was sitting backwards on it, but facing me. He crossed his arms over the back.

“Back down, Colby!” Roman's voice boomed from the door behind me. “Sorry, they're a little over-protective.” He said calmly to me. I turned to find him freshly showered in slacks and a button down shirt, hair up in a bun. Our eyes locked on each other's again. “Hi,” he reached to shake my hand, “I'm Joe.”

He towered over me, but instead of finding it scary, I felt safe in front of him. “I'm Y/N.”I answered.

Joe's voice got softer as he talked to me. “I don't have a lot of time here. We are headed to Kansas City tonight, but I had to talk to you.” Logically, I figured that Joe was trying to get a booty call, but looking into his eyes, I saw something else. Something I couldn't decipher. “These guys have agreed to wait ½ hour to leave so we can talk.” He gestured to Dean and Seth. “Can we... uh... can we talk alone?” He asked tentatively.

“No.” Laura said. I chuckled at that.

“At ease, soldier.” I laughed to her.

“I'm not leaving you alone with him.” She demanded.

I looked to Joe who grinned slightly. “Laura, can you and the guys go out into the hall? We'll keep the door open, mom.” I teased her.

Dean chuckled with me and Seth gathered he and Laura up. “Come on, I'll buy you a cup of coffee.” Seth offered to Laura.

Once they were all gone, I felt a sense of relief. No more evil looks from The Shield brothers and no more over-protective Laura.

Joe motioned to a chair, “Have a seat.” Part of me was on high alert... wondering what the hell was going on, but when I looked at Joe, I calmed down. Something about him just seemed so comforting.  We both sat down at a little table. “I...... uh....” He stopped talking. He just chuckled to himself as he looked down to the floor. “Sorry.” He looked back up and I saw a blush starting to form on his cheeks. “I.... I don't know how to say this. It sounds crazy, even in my head.” He struggled to find the words. “I've been” he paused “dreaming about you for months.”

I was stunned. Truly stunned. “What?” I asked.

“I don't know how else to say it. I've been dreaming about you for months.... actually.... for over a year.” He said again. He stood up and started pacing for a second, but then sat back down and looked at me. “For a year now, I've dreamed about you..... your hair, your voice. Three or four times a week.”

Surely this was a pick up line. It had probably worked dozens of times on other women, but not with me. And yet, as I looked at him, all I saw was him being vulnerable. “Are you serious?” I asked.

“I am.” He looked down and shook his head in disbelief. “I've been dreaming about you for over a year. I never thought you were a real person, until I saw you tonight. I don't know what to do now that I found you, but I do know I want to get to know you.”

Ok. I resigned myself to the fact that he was trying to hook up. This had to be an act.  I opened my mouth to talk, but couldn't figure out what to say.

“Like I said, the guys have given me a half hour to figure this out. So, first, can I have your phone number?” He smiled up as he handed me his phone. Still stunned, I grabbed his phone and typed in my number. “Say something, please.” Joe pleaded.

“I... I don't know what to say.” I admitted which made him smile warmly and something about the smile made me melt a bit inside. “Is this..... are you trying to hook up with me?” I hadn't meant to say that out loud, but there it was.

Joe laughed harder. “No.... Listen, I'm not kidding. I've honestly been dreaming about you. Now that I found you, I don't know what to do, but I know that I can't let you go until we figure this out. I'm not looking for a hook up.”

His smile was infectious. “Good.” I smiled back at him.

He reached out and took my hand between his, “I know this sounds insane. Trust me, I feel insane saying it out loud. Seth and Dean are really concerned about me. They've been hearing me talk about you... well... the dreams about you, and then I just see you. It's.... I don't know. It's something.”

“It's something alright.” I had to admit, I loved the feel of his big hands holding mine.

He chuckled again. “Lets start with this. Do you live here in St. Louis?” he asked.

“Actually, I live across the river in Illinois. It's about a 20 minute drive here.”

He looked surprised and pleased. “Can I come visit you on Tuesday?” he asked suddenly.

I was stunned yet again, “What?”

“I have Tuesday and Wednesday off. Can I come see you? I'd like to take you out on a date. Maybe take you out to dinner?” he rubbed a thumb over my knuckles. “I'll stay at a hotel. I'll be happy to get you a room if you don't want to drive back and forth or not. It's up to you.”

“Are you serious?” I asked. “We just met.”

“He's serious,” I heard Seth say. “We've been hearing about you forever.” I looked to find Seth, Laura and Dean coming back in the room. “He's got it bad for you.”

The comment made Joe blush again and he looked down at the floor before taking a breath. “He's right. I don't know how or why, but I know.......I don't know..... I just need to get to know you.” He smiled so warmly at me with a look of slight embarrassment. It made me melt a little more.

“They've been telling me all about his dreams.” Laura said as she handed me a bottle of water. “He's telling the truth.” She reassured me.

I thought for a second before I tried to answer, “Well,” I looked into his eyes “Yes. Yes we can go out to dinner on Tuesday.”

That made Joe smile even more. “All right! Ok, we've got a bit more time. Tell me everything about yourself.”

I laughed a bit, “My whole life in what... 15 minutes?”

He laughed with me. “How about just some things...... What do you do for work? What do you do for fun? Are you  wrestling fan?”

“Oh yeah she is,” Dean interrupted, “I saw her following the match closely. She even winced when you took the kick to the chest from Dolf and landed wrong. She knows wrestling.” He was incapable of standing still... instead he paced back and forth. “She knows.”

I smiled and nodded at Joe. “Yes. I follow wrestling. I have for a few years.” I answered. I work for a marketing firm, and I love to paint.”

“Painting... like art?” Joe asked. I nodded yes.

“What do you do for a living?” I joked.

Joe just laughed. He looked up to Seth, “How does Finn say it?” He looked back to me, “I wrestle grown men in my underwear.”

We all laughed at that, which seemed to calm our friends who were now hovering over us. I felt  like we had chaperones. Laura and Seth took a seat at a table on the other side of the room, and Dean paced between the two tables anxiously.

Joe and I settled into a conversation. We talked about our lives and our beliefs, and time flew by.

“Joe.” Seth called from across the room. “5 minutes.” He warned, which shocked both of us.

“Ok, Like I said, these guys want to get to Kansas City.” He stood up, taking my hand in his again and leading me to stand. He turned so he was between our friends and us, and his broad frame almost completely blocked them out. “I can't believe you're real.”

“I'm real. I promise.”

“Can I text you later tonight?” He asked shyly.

“Yes.” I shook my head at him. He stared into my eyes for a second before bending down to give me a chaste kiss on the lips which brought a big smile to my face.

“Thank you,” He said. “We'll make plans for Tuesday over the phone, ok?” I nodded in agreement.

“Come on, loverboy!” Seth's words broke us up. “You can talk to her on the phone.”

Joe pressed a sweet kiss to my forehead and said goodbye.

Laura and I were left in the room..... both confused a bit.... me a little weak in the knees.

“What the fuck?” She asked.

“I don't know.” I answered her.

We started walking out to our car, “Do you believe this whole dreaming of you thing?” She asked.

I thought for a minute before I answered. “I think I do.” I answered.