#bc I also know Tolkien was very Catholic

[mxliv-oftheendless]

So I’ve started reading The Silmarillion and I don’t know if anyone else noticed this but the story of Aulë creating the Dwarves without Ilúvatar knowing, then in his shame and reverence for Ilúvatar being ready to destroy them, then Ilúvatar stopping him and letting the Dwarves live…

Am I tripping or is that supposed to be an allusion to the Bible story of Abraham and Isaac??

[essenceofarda]

can anyone recommend a *women* hosted or at least, mostly hosted by women podcast about tolkien's works that is not from a Christian perspective? I know this is a very niche ask lol 😅

I'm wanting a tolkien podcast to listen to, but tbh (and this is not hate on men in general lol) but I'm kinda tired of the majority of tolkien-themed podcast being from a very male-centric perspective lol

And the only podcast I could find that is hosted by women seemed to be a bit Christian/catholic/religious focused/from that perspective. which is not really my cup of tea (i don't mind podcasts that TALKS about Tolkien's faith bc i don't think you can really fully separate that from his work, i just don't want the podcast itself to be a "Christian podcast" lol)

Honestly I'd start one myself if I could find some other women (or feminist men/nb folks/anyone) who are interested in exploring Tolkien's work , especially if they were also into more diverse representations of Tolkien's work and middle earth in general etc.

so anyway, if you know of any podcasts that fit this very niche, very specific qualifications, send me a reply or ask with more details??

:)

[samthepotterhead]

now I finally know why he was called estel in a fanfic. I thought there was another reveal behind it, but aragorn was actually the revealed name. btw this is actually name no. 5 (!) that I know of. I was not kidding with the 15 names.

I think it's very responsible of tolkien to introduce arwen to aragorn only when he is 20 and has lived with her father for 18 years, which prevents it from being a grooming situation (even though she is still much older than him) and (socially) incestuous. and even elrond is like "no you are way too young". very nice. I have a feeling though, if this was gender flipped, he would've fewer qualms about this, especially considering aragorn's mother seems to have been super young (probably in her early teens) and his father 58 when they married… but I love that arwen and aragorn's relationship is now explained, even though I personally don't understand why this isn’t woven into the lotr story.

maybe I'm overinterpreting, aragorn and arwen sounds a lot like tolkien and his wife too, no? I know he mostly based beren and luthien on their relationship, but him being orphaned as a child, younger (and maybe a little naive), from different backgrounds (catholic vs protestant), them not being able to be together bc of their guardians, then getting engaged but parted by a war, and then finally ending up married sounds very parallel. but Idk maybe this all applies to beren and luthien as well.

I love that this series actually tells the whole story of most of the characters and through that forms a bridge between fantasy and the reality of life and death, but it's so sad to read somehow :( I'm assuming tolkien did this on purpose to end his life's work (and prepare for his own end). but it's also sad (if aragorn and arwen are indeed based on his own marriage) to think he thought he would die before his wife. but then he had to live without her for a couple of years and I'm sure felt not unlike arwen is described here, withering.

so yeah, as you can tell I have familiarized myself with tolkien’s biography as well in the last few weeks...

[weepylucifer]

PLEASE tell me about your strong Tolkien feelings

i hope catholic hell exists only for him so that he can go there. just so that he knows the god he spent his life revering does not want anything to do with him. and i hope that when i die, as a reward for having been a good satanist in my youth, lucifer lets me go there and just look at him. bc jirt hell is also kira mayhem weepylucifer heaven, it's a very efficient system

i'm kidding but from having studied him, i've assembled a portrait of just this profoundly ignorant man who did not know what was going on ever apart from his own field of study and immediate lived experience, who reacted to any whisper of critique by doubling down, who'd rather twist himself into a pretzel trying to retcon elements of his earlier writing to make it coherent than admit that some stuff he'd written earlier wasn't that well thought through, and because of an impact he admittedly never planned for or expected, the entire genre of fantasy is only now slowly beginning to unravel the mess of racist and imperialist themes it inherited from him. and i'm kinda tired of it frankly

he could have done ANYTHING else with orcs. he was making it up. why this. why this.

[raeazure]

explain the tolkien racism

Tolkien was a white British man born in 1892. So there's some baggage with that. He was also an academic and devout Catholic era, meaning he was part of some historically not-forward thinking institutions. But due to the fact he was in the fucking trenches during WWI, he had learned a new perspective on human life and the value of it. Being at the Somme will do that to ya I guess. Anyway, after spending the rest of WWI too emaciated for service, he starts to Think and more importantly he starts to Write. And even though he scraps it and goes "oh this is stupid", he recycles a lot of these ideas when he begins to build out Middle-Earth.

So here's the thing about those recycled ideas. Tolkien was a young man confronting his preconceived notions of reality, but he also deeply loved his homeland. And I think that really, his struggle to reconcile his background with these new ideas is why Tolkien and race gets weird.

For example, he wanted to model his orcs after a cultural shorthand for evil, so he used the imagery of WWI anti-German propaganda. Except he doesn't really believe the Germans are evil, and he knows that imagery was actually based on Mongolian caricatures (the reason why is whole other topic). But since he is using it as an abstract for evil, he thinks it's okay. This is why he has letters to his son that both state "yeah the Orcs were based on Mongolians" and also "btw I know you're in WWII but don't fall for propaganda". The core of it was that he recognized those things were bad, but thought that placing these ideas into fantasy divorced them from the reality they came from.

This is a very brief explanation of this topic bc people have argued about it since LotR was published. I find it disingenuous to claim he was wholly and deliberately racist, but I also don't believe his works were somehow exempt from the racist culture he lived in.

[spookyjarchivist]

gotta say, looking into tolkien’s views on women is so fucking funny bc he is both way ahead of the times and also very much of the time in the dumbest way possible

tolkien: u cannot help being man or woman, the body does not always reflect this inclination either

me: … okay missing a couple things but good for a sheltered english catholic cis guy born in the 1800s

tolkien: women are 100% capable of all the things men are, physically and mentally

me: yes!! absolutely!! you get it!

tolkien: shame they have no motivation for it bc they are naturally inclined due to their gender to want to be in the house

me: OH COME ON

better yet, check out his Catholic GuiltTM about being poly and COMPLETELY NOT UNDERSTANDING that it’s a-okay and not inherently sinful to have attraction for multiple people AND WANT to be with multiple people at the same time

note, he doesn’t seem to have a problem with the feelings themselves but the want to act on them and actually acting on them, which is… interesting,,, dude i know u know about homosexuals and likely were okay with them if not being what we would consider bi/pan today yourself, wtf was samfrosie at the end of the fucking book meant to be then???? is it nothing and u just needed to distract from the gay?? what is happening???

anyway imagine if he actually managed to get to intersectional feminism instead of doing his weird little essentialist thing, like it’s astonishing how feminist his works are despite him having these odd ideas, better than most media ive consumed made in this day and age, jackson’s movies are actively less feminist than the books, what the fuck

[whats-taters-precious]

ok ik this is just a dream but this is actually something I kinda think about a lot: the duality of lotr audience. It might just be me, but it seems more politically diverse than most other audiences. Like, someone saying theyre really into lotr can be met with "lol yeah that makes sense" even in two wildly different contexts. Oh you're catholic homeschooler? yeah I could've guessed you're a lotr nerd. Oh youre a raging homosexual? yep go figure you love lotr.

And I just find that contrast really interesting bc you cant say the same for other fandoms like star wars or marvel. And sure, you could say a lot of leftists and conservatives like those too bc, well, does everyone does. Just like lotr. But no, I don't mean it like that. For marvel and star wars its not a well known thing, like a almost stereotype, that gay people especially like them or that conservatives especially like them, whereas with lotr, at least in my experience, it is like that. As someone who was raised conservative and took a sharp left turn (lol), I feel like I notice it a bit more

a LOT of right, religious, and/or conservative people adore lotr bc it’s a cool fantasy piece that’s also clean and wholesome and—here’s the main attraction for the religious people I mentioned—written by a devout Catholic who ingrained many Christian elements and themes into it. Plus, as Tolkien fought in WWI, it also has a lot of wartime, brothers-in-arms themes, which we all know conservatives are all about. This all makes sense for why it attracts the audience I mentioned. Being a hardcore lotr fan is almost a given in those circles. Ive spent a lot of time in such circles and believe me when I'm talking mega fans

Interestingly enough, I’ve noticed that it also heavily attracts the opposite political spectrum, like leftists and the lgbtq community. Their appeal is a little less clear for me to explain, which is ironic as it’s just as familiar to me as the former but I’ll try my hand at it. It seems like queer ppl like the fantasy genre more than straight ppl (not to get deep but I reckon it has something to do with escaping the unkind realities of this world </3), and lotr is THE fantasy series. Then it unashamedly portrays soft affection between men--and also badass powerful women--which not only is appreciated by ppl who are tired of societal restraints and expectations of gender norms, but it allows ppl to read said affection as romantic if they so wish. Lotr is a story about hanging onto hope and love in the face of darkness, and that's something a lot of queer people resonate with.

and then theres the crossover of these two worlds that may play a part in lotr having two wildly different categories of fans: the individuals that started in the first and hopped over into the second. I fall into this one as do several friends of mine. We grew up in the religious culture where lotr/tolkien was praised by both authority figures and peers, but even after we left that life behind we still clung to the magical land of middle-earth.

idk. i might just be more aware of this duality bc I've experienced both sides--and thus, the power of frequency illusion--but its just an odd experience to witness this shared intense passion for a franchise between two groups of very different people

I was getting coffee with my coworker, who is kind of right-wing and I said jokingly, "You know, I'm awfully leftist," and he said, "Yeah, I figured that the moment I learned you're a fan of the Lord of the Rings."

[galsinspace]

Y'all ever think about how Maedhros' suicide was not just the choice to end it all, the inability to live with himself - elven suicide is different than real human suicide because they don't get an end as we know it. He knew he would go to the Halls of Mandos upon death. There's no real escape in it for him. He decided to face judgement.

In a way, Maglor disappeared more than Maedhros did. You could argue Maglor was the one who could not face everything he'd done

[iseulsoda]

People I believe to be chaotic academia

Van Gogh

Listen to the man speak:

• I put my heart and my soul into my work, and have lost my mind in the process

• I would rather die of passion than of boredom

• I feel there's nothing more truly artistic than to love people

(He is my spirit animal and I don't accept any comments about it, it's not arguable)

He painted this:

He looked like this:

JRR Tolkien

• Man came up with The Lord of The Rings during WAR

• And it's ALL a catholic analogy??? He was like "let's invent an entire universe just to yk write my thoughts about my faith (he was a hardcore catholic) and all the traumas of war" instead of just going to therapy?? If this is not chaotic academia I'm done.

• He got beef with Disney bc he already knew they were shady and wouldn't let them make a movie out of TLOTR, he said that he sincerely hated Disney movies

... I recognize his talent, but he has always seemed hopelessly corrupted. Although in most of the 'images' that come from his studies there are admirable or charming passages, the effect of all of them is unpleasant to me. Some have made me nauseous ...

Disney's name is not mentioned in that letter, but it refers to a trickster man who is willing to let the less experienced down, believed to have been in reference to Mary Poppins and the controversy over the PL Travers book adaptation. — Javier Flores for IGN

• Literally invented a language. Literally. Like. For real.

Saint Lawrence

• Guy was grilled alive and said "I'm well done on this side. Turn me over!" and now he's the patron saint of barbecues, cooks, chefs and comedians.

Do you really need any other reason

It is said that Lawrence gave the church’s treasures to the poor and the sick before his arrest

"One of the seven deacons of the city of Rome under Pope Sixtus II who were martyred in the persecution of the Christians that the Roman Emperor Valerian ordered in 258"

And I believe that anyone who has faith is a rebel, so great for him, mostly when being persecuted and discriminated — So Chaotic Academia

I won't stop romanticizing religion freedom? Religion is chaotic academia and you won't ever change my mind

Apparently very smart and sassy but also very kind so

Sherlock Holmes

• ??? Tell me I'm wrong. I dare you.

• Messy af

• and a genius

• I was broken when I was told he didn't exist

How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?

My name is Sherlock Holmes. It is my business to know what other people do not know >>>>

Education never ends, Watson. It is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.

Da Vinci

• the definition of why do one thing

• again, messy af:

• crazy man vibes

• painter, anatomist, architect, paleontologist, artist, botanist, scientist, writer, sculptor, philosopher, engineer, inventor, musician, poet and urban planner

"It had long since come to my attention that people of accomplishment rarely sat back and let things happen to them. They went out and happened to things."

"I have been impressed with the urgency of doing. Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Being willing is not enough; we must do."

"Just as food eaten without appetite is a tedious nourishment, so does study without zeal damage the memory by not assimilating what it absorbs."

"Poor is the pupil who does not surpass his master."

[theelvenhaven]

Okay, but since according to Tolkien canon sex=marriage for elves bc they form a bond that way and unless that bond is broken by both parties it stays (but also bc Catholicism). So now I remember all the funny ways kids that went to Catholic school pushed the line and engaged in borderline lewd stuff but never actually got to third base, and putting all that on elves.

Or elves being very touchy/kissy in general and trying out all they can and how far can they push bc who is not young (also they do have a sort if timer on that according to tnome)

10.04.2021

For elves when they form that bond it actually cannot be broken from what all Tolkien has stated. The only way that bond can be broken is if one elf has died and stays in the Halls forever. But other than that there’s no way for the bond to be broken.

I don’t know if they’d push or risk bonding in such a way.

If we go strictly by canon; I don’t think they’d be very lewd because sex and sexual activity is so incredibly sacred to them since it leads to this eternal unbreakable bond that they have with their partner.

NOW for your own personal headcanons that strays from original headcanons is a ton of freaking fun. And I could picture a couple -cough- Celegorm -cough- pushing the limits like that.

[galadhremmin]

since it sounds like you got some hostile anons, just wanted to say - 1000% agree on your A/A analysis and it puts in words a niggling dread that I had always felt abt them! Yes, it’s the danger of falling in love w the idea of an echo of something grander: several steps removed from what is realized. her death always seemed framed as genuinely awful to me; it only does Tolkien a service to acknowledge ambivalence towards mortality in his narratives. [1/2]

[2/2] also. Completely unironically would love to read anything you write for arwen/Daeron, Arwen/glorfindel, Arwen/Gildor :D spitefic is extremely satisfying to write; most fic I write is just “these are my Hot Takes about this character” but in a prettied up narrative form LOL. (On that note - cannot stand the ubiquitousness of airhead slutty twink finrod. literally it’s just bc he’s diplomatic and likes jewelry ….. it’s fun in moderation but when that is the dominant fandom take ????)

(this ask is about this and this post)

So I'm really, really behind on my inbox--- but this was such a sweet message, I appreciate it! ♥ 

I'm not really the right person for these pairings lolol-- though I might do unrequited/stalker Daeron/Arwen. Unless you count some old Athrabeth reaction fics that are really just about mortality I have never written het romance, so it would be a new experience at least.

I feel like there is a lot more to Tolkien's attitude to mortality than just unambiguous 'death is a gift' yes-- even aside from the fact that you can see his ideas change over time (including those about death and how he wanted to represent it in his Secondary World)-- but also Arwen and Aragorn's story is just fascinating because it's not B&L-- how plays out in a world that is simultaneously retrieving/healing fragments of its ancient past and losing them forever

love in the ruins, in echoes of an old song full of half-remembered names, seeing spectres of ancestors in each others' faces...

Uhm anyway Finrod! I don't know how that became such a widespread fanon either. I suppose people associate a love for jewelry with femininity, femininity with being an airhead (yikes)? But he's not a character in a modern western setting, and I guess I just associate his love for jewelry with how a lot of high-status men wore jewelry in various ancient cultures.

In Athrabeth he seems friendly but pious and not very encouraging of horniness, to Andreth's deep regret ('for one day of the flame' like... girl we get it. you had the hots for Aegnor. but oh my god don't talk about daydreaming of a one-night stand or his brother or will just invite himself to your shared afterlife 'my brother -- and me;) ')(ok I'm joking but yeah-- it can really work in some fanfics but that's just because some people are good writers!).

(okay admittedly I have joked about the suspiciously blond Beorian village near Nargothrond due to mortal LaCE loophole jokepost and written Tom/Finrod myself-- i think adventurous in every single way Finrod is very funny... but that's in part funny to me because it's not the impression I got from Athrabeth at all, and because parts of LaCE sounds like a faintly nightmarish catholic fantasy to me).

[sicilitude]

FULL NAME:   Viola Lucia Benedetta Messina NICKNAME(S):  Vi, Vivi, some of the neighbor kids call her auntie Vi AGE:  2800-something. She lost track the second time the calendar changed on her.  BIRTHDAY:  She insists that she doesn’t have one.  SPECIES:  immortal representation of a particular Mediterranean island’s sense of self 

NATIONALITY: Legally Italian, but she insists on Sicilian. This is in opposition to the laundry list of nationalities she’s had in the past, and that’s not even including ethnicity  GENDER:  woman  PREFERRED PRONOUN(S):  she/her ORIENTATION:  Bi, technically with a historic tendency towards women RELIGION:  Roman Catholic, previously Muslim, Greek Catholic, and various assorted kinds of Pagan  OCCUPATION:  Orange Farmer  STATUS:  a bit unstable, but it’s fine. She can handle it  FANDOM:  I, don’t know if h*talia counts? It’s been so long and I’m apparently so far removed from like, basic assumptions about what nations are, what they do, what their biology is, etc.  FACE CLAIM: she doesn’t really have one. I’ve used Sophia Lauren and Simonetta Stefanelli (for a younger Vi), but I’m haunted by a few paintings of a Neapolitan girl by John Singer Sargent and I just can’t get over them, and can’t find someone with the same energy 

                RELATIONSHIPS:

PARENTS:  her mother is Ancient Greece, and she doesn’t know her father. She’s suspected Phoenicia and Carthage but her mother never told her. All she knows for certain is that Rome, in fact, is not her real dad.  SIBLINGS: Obviously this can get a little wishy-washy depending on who I’m working with in an RP context, but by default, Vi’s half-siblings (that she’s aware of, at least) are Byzantium, Hellenistic Egypt, the Vatican, and the Greek City States. She marries into/winds up being step siblings with South Italy and Lombardy. Technically, this makes Venice and modern Greece her nephews, modern Egypt and the rest of North Italy her great-nephews/nieces/etc, and slap a big ole question mark on the rest of Europe bc Rome adopted a lot of kids but also, as previously stated, he’s not her real dad. The list gets more complicated if (like she suspects) Phoenicia or Carthage happened to be her real dad, in which case we start to pull in certain bits of North Africa and the Middle East and here is where my woes begin 

SIGNIFICANT OTHER(S):  she’s had a few human lovers who really stuck with her, namely her first husband and a very lovely girl from 1500. The two nations of note include my HRE (it didn’t go very well tho) and ofc the lovely  @arancioamore  CHILDREN: she’s had a few human children in the past through various arrangements, but no immortal ones. She has adopted @coruscato‘s NYC too, and adores her rich son   ENEMIES:  ah. Hah. Ah-hahahahahaahhhhhhhhhh, listen. Even if they (the norse, the normans, the french, the spanish, the UK, the other Italians, the US, the Mediterranean, the Russians, certain Germans, etc, etc) don’t remember that they use to have a beef, she does, she remembers, and she probably hasn’t really gotten over it yet. She’s pretty good at ignoring it and putting off confrontation. Would she call any of them her enemies? Not out loud. Would she plot to humiliate them at a bake sale or wittily put them down? Probably.  As for humans, currently, she’s in a feud with one of her thick-headed neighbors. Neither of them remember why, and mostly they just compete for the love of their other neighbors, but he absolutely counts. And she’s got a thing against the water company. 

               PHYSICAL TRAITS:

EYE COLOR(S): dark brown, almost black  HAIR COLOR(S): brown-black HEIGHT:  5′3″ BODY BUILD:  stout, stocky, like one of tolkien’s dwarves.  NOTABLE PHYSICAL TRAITS:  she’s missing her left pinkie and part of her ring finger. On her face, her eyes are notable for how wide and dark they are, 

            PHOBIAS AND DISEASES:

PHOBIA(S):  the open sea, claustrophobia, aerophobia, Equinophobia,  Catagelophobia  MENTAL DISEASE(S):   I’m not really prepped to diagnose her with anything, but she’s got trauma, and some anxiety from it.  PHYSICAL DISEASE(S):  not really. She gets a bit of a stiff back some days, and sometimes she gets a stuffy nose in the winter, but she’s pretty sturdy. 

                  PERSONALITY:

USUAL MOOD/EXPRESSION: She tends to be fairly cheery and welcoming, isn’t afraid of teasing, and leans quite heavily on her pride and domesticity. 

                       MISC:

SKILLS:  most domestic things, like cooking, baking, running a household, sewing, mending, embroidery, etc. She’s quite good with domesticated animals (except for horses and Goat, but he’s an exception to a lot of things), and she’s quite good at getting herself out of trouble.  HOBBIES:   teasing and fussing over her family members, quilting, going for nice walks with her dogs, that sort of thing ANIMAL:  she has her big ol mastiff, her little hound, a handful of barn cats that she keeps an eye on, and Goat. 

                       STATS:

COMPASSION:  8/10 EMPATHY: 9 /10 CREATIVITY:  7/10 MENTAL FLEXIBILITY:  8/10 PASSION/MOTIVATION:  6/10 EDUCATION:  2/10 STAMINA:  7/10 PHYSICAL STRENGTH:  6/10 BATTLE SKILL:  2/10 INITIATIVE:  2/10 RESTRAINT:  1/10 AGILITY:  3/10 STRATEGY:  8/10 TEAMWORK:  5/10

tagged by: @gebrochener-adler thank you <3  tagging: @ehrendame @starspanglcd @stadslichten @arancioamore @coruscato forrrrrr Sean? Or whoever you’re in the mood for 

[kyelek]

𝐂𝐞𝐥𝐞𝐠𝐨𝐫𝐦 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐋𝐮𝐭𝐡𝐢𝐞𝐧 (𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐢𝐫 𝐥𝐨𝐯𝐞 𝐨𝐫 "𝐥𝐨𝐯𝐞", 𝐩𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐬)

Lúthien, who is discovered by Celegorm’s hound while fleeing through the forest, reveals herself shortly after to Celegorm and he seems thus:

For reference and comparison, Beren is just the same:

So Lúthien is beautiful and loveable, and it happens fast but I don’t think we may say it’s trivial bc of how quick it is; because if you said it isn’t genuine of Celegorm, at first, you would need to say it’s also not genuine of Beren.

Celegorm is a prince of the Noldor, and he is also called the fair and we know the Eldar care much about names and naming — he is also a son of Fëanor and one of the most proud. And he’s in love now. And he would believe, for all his great qualities ( and I mean the truly great, besides that damning Oath he swore and losing Himlad he still has a lot going for him; maybe even more now because he’s taking Nargothrond ), that Lúthien would love him too, of her own. That she would see him as a prince and herself as a princess, to rule whatever realm together. That he would only need to charm her away from thoughts of Beren. Indeed his motivation is his own love.

Lúthien, I think, does not find Celegorm and Curufin as her captors until she is at Nargothrond, and they don’t let her from the room they’ve given her (.......they didn’t just... chuck her in an actual prison cell). This is where The Silmarillion diverges into its final form from drafts, and where I go back to the drafts for my own portrayal and understanding of the story.

Celegorm withholds from Lúthien for reasons that are not yet his motivation to stay her, but because he doesn’t wish to reveal what he knows of Finrod’s and Beren’s quest — neither to her, nor the people of Nargorthrond — because all that he knows but hasn’t said is his claim to blame. In the Lay of Leithian — even more than in the Silm — it’s Curufin who immediately and more so than Celegorm puts forth politics.

------ You can say Tolkien’s concept for (Elven) marriage is very catholic and over-the-top idealized, but, for the Eldar, I tend to agree in a way because they are idealized beings to begin with. We have sex that supposedly does not happen without marriage, and so if you boil it down to sex = marriage (both ways even) it’s kind of a krass idea, but here in rp I’ll take it for my own portrayals at least. For that reason, and for the reason that the “spiritual” in all of Tolkien’s legandarium, but again especially among the Eldar, is so greatly empathised, I tend not to agree with the concept of arranged/forced marriages (for political goals, etc.) being known or practiced among them. Because even the seemingly most basic , yet most important thing — conceiving a child — among the Elves, needs conscious effort from both mother and father; in theory there are no accidental pregnancies or children from rape or other deception*. And so, no arranged marriages in the most traditional sense — of parents choosing partners for each others’ children, regardless of love — would even come to fruition; among Tolkien’s elves there’s just no good reasoning for it. ------

But, even so, didn’t Celegorm and Curufin seek to force Thingol to give Lúthien’s hand to Celegorm?? Yes, yes they did... but Thingol and not Lúthien herself:

They would have sought to force Thingol to let Lúthien marry in the same sense that Beren sought his agreement, if he brought the Silmaril.

And they, Celegorm and Curufin, surely thought that Celegorm may win Lúthien’s love — were convinced that his great qualities would win her in time — so that only her father would be the one actually pressured.

------ There is Curufin’s brief interaction with Eöl, where for once, thank you very much Pengolodh, he gets out looking fairly a good character and not a mere villain; Curufin, for his part, does not accept Eöl as kin because he forced Aredhel and had no blessing from her father either. So he — and presumably Celegorm just as well — find this important. ------

And might not Lúthien, if she married, and married if Thingol received a Silmaril, at least marry someone who held a claim to them? A son of Fëanor?

Alas, they were too frikkin haughty and Lúthien loved Beren, and not Celegorm. And Thingol took their word sent to him as a threat because he already had beef with the sons of Fëanor.

So Celegorm sought marriage to Lúthien out of love, not politics ( Curufin a little more so; who might have thought in his own way that he could convince Lúthien marriage to his brother would be best for her ), at least at first, and wanted to seduce her, not force; but she did not forget Beren.

*I don’t wanna talk about Eöl here, though.

[arofili]

as of only a couple years ago, it was the norm that people who reblogged and prioritized reblogging diverse art and graphics, and who wrote and reblogged fanfiction that highlighted the fanon that particular characters aren’t white, were significantly more likely to be safe. and by “safe” I mean antiracist, pro-LGBT rights and LGBT content in fanworks, and interested in debunking the idea that hardline conservative Christianity had to be accepted as the bedrock for Tolkien’s canon. people who primarily or solely reblogged art featuring white characters were significantly more likely to be racist, sexist, homophobic, trad Catholic, or all of the above

I'd never thought of it that way before but you're very right - and in addition to an influx of white content, there's also been an influx of homophobic and transphobic content (some of it more obvious than others)... I'm also on Silm twitter and I'm very glad my platform there is much smaller, partially bc I can salt more openly, lmao, but also because it's soooo easy to attract the Worst People to your tweets.

I know that for some users at least there was a standard of “never reblog fanart of white versions of particular characters“ specifically as a rejection of bigoted fans and a sign of their views on the canon.

I've also never considered this but it makes a lot of sense! I don't know if it's something I personally could stick to, especially not now, but it's definitely something to consider.

what this means for me is that everyone reblogging and interacting with white art has now broken down that system of signaling, which has led to a profound sense of insecurity and wondering why I’m suddenly not welcome. I’m realizing now, as I write this, that the majority of the fandom probably wasn’t aware they were doing that in the first place, while I’ve been curating my follow list based  entirely on how often people interacted with white fanart since at least 2018.

now I’m curious to see if anyone else has been doing the same thing, actually.

That makes a lot of sense. If I ever was doing that, I certainly wasn't doing it consciously - and I still feel sort of new to the fandom despite having been around in the Tolkien fandom since 2015 and having shifted mostly to Silm content in 2019...so idk, I wasn't really aware of the diveristy conversations in the Silm fandom (I'm thinking about Fingon and the Nolofinweans in particular) when they were happening. I've heard about it from other fans, but I was mostly in a Hobbit movies bubble at the time. (And all the movie fandoms are just - incredibly white, thanks to PJ's racist casting.)

But also, I am white myself, so I don't have the same kind of awareness for this as others might. It is something I try to look for consciously, though I'm not perfect, and being a person marginalized in ways other than race I do know the feeling of having to constantly be on the lookout for bigotry, and having to guess based on subtle clues if a person is unsafe. I know lots of people who draw characters white by default who I don't think are actively malicious - but that doesn't make them safe, either, because it's a sign they're not interrogating their personal biases.

This has turned into a bit of a ramble, so I'll stop now, but - yeah, you're absolutely right to feel frustrated about this, especially since it's not a problem that can be easily solved :/

this is much more of a personal complaint than a deep musing on the nature of fandom as a whole, and since it is personal I welcome other perspectives and I would appreciate discussion about it. mostly, I want to speak about this because it’s more immediately painful to me than even the Finrod-as-Mighty-Whitey situation, and I’d welcome anything anyone else has to say.

I’ll begin with the point I’m trying to make: it’s extremely alienating to see people pay lip service to the concept of wanting a diverse vision of Arda and then primarily reblog or engage with fanart where everyone, even characters with relatively long-established fanon where they’re black or brown, is white. it feels hypocritical, and is frankly one of the most upsetting parts of being on Tumblr. it keeps me out of character tags, and makes me wonder if being part of the wider community is worth it when I’m not interested in furthering that aesthetic.

I’m not saying that the act of giving engagement to these pieces is inherently racist. the situation is significantly more complex than that, and no one (as far as I know) is actively doing this on purpose. I want to have a conversation about this, not come out swinging.

I’m aware that for whatever reason the Tumblr fandom is going through a period of “everyone is white”, and that as a result for characters like Fingon the only art that’s getting made is of white people. I also understand that since these are books, everyone is free to interpret characters however they please.

what I am saying is that I don’t understand why there’s not been more pushback against that shift. when the idea to make Arda more diverse first emerged, it seemed to be a welcome change that made left-leaning online fandom spaces more inclusive and took a stand against the more vocally racist groups who love Tolkien’s works for explicitly racist reasons. even though this blog is new, I’ve been a lurker here for a long time, and I’m not sure what’s changed that means suddenly we’re all not just tolerant of but glorying in the presence of overwhelmingly white (and heterosexual, but that’s a topic for another day) fanart and fancasts.

I suppose it was unrealistic of me to assume that a largely white fandom was actually invested in racially diverse visions of the cast of these books, instead of merely going with the flow. there’s also a chance that several people have simply left the fandom, and the new artists aren’t aware of long-standing traditions. but this shift makes me (and, I’m going to guess, many other fans of color) feel alienated and unsafe. it makes me wonder why anyone bothered supporting diversity in Arda in the first place, why they crafted a space I felt comfortable in only to pull the rug out from under me. a commitment to diversity doesn’t just mean highlighting creators of color or joining in on the zeitgeist. it means consciously prioritizing nonwhite depictions of characters, or at the very least giving them equal space with white ones. it means following and engaging with editors and gif makers and graphic makers and fanartists who focus on representations of a nonwhite Arda. it also means learning how to spot which artists are (consciously or unconsciously) racist in their depictions of the characters, and not engaging with those people.

I am aware these are irrational emotions, and I’m inviting conversation because I would like to get a better understanding of the reality of the situation. in fact, the above paragraph is as kind as I can manage to be because I know I’m being irrational. but I gave voice to my feelings because I wanted people who might not be aware of how upsetting it is to be told “you’re not welcome” simply because you only ever see people who look like white Europeans in a space that is not required to be inherently white or inherently European. I can take vocal racism and dismissal from people who I already know are going to dislike me. finding out that spaces explicitly framed as inclusive and welcoming when it comes to racial diversity don’t seem to be interested in prioritizing the inclusion of characters of color is more upsetting than being told “you’re a racist for saying Finrod is often depicted as a white savior” (something I was, in fact, actually told, and something I’m still attempting to understand).

the simple fact that I feel as if this space is inherently less welcoming to me does not automatically mean that there is actual hostility. I also know that there are older works, and that the characters who are most popular right now were always seen as white, regardless of whether or not they actually were white in the text.

but I would like to say that going into a character tag and only seeing white faces is extremely disheartening. it used to be the truth that any number of conceptions of a character were present. why can’t we go back to that?

[garden-ghoul]

I can’t believe it’s not the Shibboleth of Fëanor

“starting early out of fear that another farcical thing will prevent me from reading the shibboleth”

Chris’ notes on the shibboleth begin by saying that he has left out a huge number of phonology notes, which I sort of resent although I wouldn’t have read them anyway. Look Chris, if someone has made it here they’re probably enough of a linguistics nerd that they could get SOMETHING out of those. Don’t be a wimp.

Wait, did the exiled Noldor all speak Sindarin while they were in Beleriand? Like all of them? Maybe this shibboleth essay will clarify what the difference actually is between Quenya and Sindarin--I was under the impression that the latter was a language specifically invented and spoken by the green elves in Ossiriand, although I don’t know whether I ever had a reason for thinking that. “In any case, it is impossible to believe that any of the Noldor ever became unfamiliar with the sound þ,” Tolkien assures us. He then goes on to imply that this is ONLY because the Vanyar and Teleri still remembered what þ was. 

Anyway, let’s look at how it went down. Feanor was one of the chief linguistic loremasters (!) at the time. This guy is such an obnoxious polymath. He really does have a tiny hammer for the metaphors. Tolkien mentions that his mom Miriel has Very Good Enunciation and is also ridiculously good at embroidery. I’m not sure whether that second one will be relevant, but she is very adamant on continuing to use þ rather than s because that’s how it was when she was a kid. And she makes her whole family use þ too, at the very least when pronouncing her name (Þerinde, or needlewoman)

Feanor loved his mother dearly, though except in obstinacy their characters were widely different.

Ugh. I’m 100% sold on Feanor and Miriel now. This is the cutest shit. I also want to register how glad I am that elves have milk names. I’m wondering what culture Tolkien got that from, because he only really seemed to be into Germanic and Celtic cultures and I haven’t heard anything about that there? omg here’s an even better quote about them:

While she lived she did much with gentle counsel to soften and restrain Feanor. Her death was a lasting grief to him, and both directly and by its further consequences a main cause of his later disastrous influence on the history of the Noldor.

Word of the author says if Miriel had been around Feanor wouldn’t have done so much stupid shit. Should have! thought about what his mom would say! instead of killing hundreds of people at Alqualonde huh!!

Miriel cites the birth of Feanor as the cause of the weariness that made her want to be dead. She assures him that it’s because he’s just too great, but that’s still got to hurt. Having your mom publicly acknowledge that she invented death because she was so tired of you she wanted to die. Holy fuck!

The Valar are ultra dismayed by this, because they keep asking her when she’ll come back to her body and she keeps going “leave me alone!!” and Not Actually Wanting To Be Alive is the one and only disease they can’t heal! Also Finwe is depressed now. The Valar panic. While Finwe is just walking all over Aman because he’s too depressed to stay in one place he walks into Indis, a local(ish) Vanya, and realizes she has had a crush on him for centuries. The process of deciding that they want to get married is handwaved in 5 words, and they go ask the Valar if it’s actually okay. The Valar think leaving Finwe to mourn forever is cruel and letting him get married again is illegal. Y’all. who made the laws. Who made them? Was it you, Manwe?

Since this has nothing whatsoever to do with linguistics anyway I’m going to interject my own thing about the Athrabeth. Andreth made the point that if the fea and hroa aren’t united by love, the body is like a chain. Obviously Miriel’s fea and hroa are not united, and she perceives her son as a chain of duty keeping her on Arda! She has the depression, just like every human, but everyone is super confused by this because depression was supposed to be invented for humans a long time from now. That is--the Eldar were not supposed to be able to “get tired of things.” This is addressed by Andreth’s “grown-up children” comment; elf psychology is fundamentally different from human psychology. What this means is that Miriel invented being mentally ill, I guess. “Just try yoga!” everyone told her, but she insisted on staying dead. Truly a hero of our time.

While I was sidetracked, the Valar made a ruling that Miriel can never ever return to her body now, even if she gets un-depressed. This is another one of those bewildering Catholic things, I guess, where it seems more just to condemn someone to death than to allow a divorce. Or like, their godly DNA was just written too Catholic for them to be able to understand the concept. Anyway Feanor blames Indis for taking his mother away Forever, even though he should really be blaming Manwe, and instantiates a Grudge against her and her children.

Into the strife and confusion of loyalties in that time this seemingly trivial matter, the change of þ to s, was caught up to its embitterment, and to lasting detriment to the Quenya tongue. Had peace been maintained there can be no doubt that the advice of Feanor, with which all the other loremasters privately or openly agreed, would have prevailed. But an opinion in which he was certainly right was rejected because of the follies and evil deeds into which he was later led. He made it a personal matter: he and his sons adhered to þ, and they demanded that all those who were sincere in their support should do the same. Therefore those who resented his arrogance, and still more those whose support later turned to hatred, rejected his shibboleth.

This is really funny to me? Like he was such an asshole that everyone started using s just to spite him. Even Indis of the Vanyar (a þ people if there ever was one) started using s!! It’s like she was trying to aggravate him! No, actually, literally all the Noldor were using s at this point, and Indis just wanted Finwe to like her. When in Rome, et c. Feanor not only thought this was a personal slight toward his mother, he also thought it was a PLOT of the Valar, inspired by ‘fear of his powers’ to ‘oust him from leadership of the Noldor.’ Holy fuck, man, I don’t even know what to do with you. Nobody would care if you didn’t make such a big deal out of it. This is some curse of the Uchiha bullshit right here, he’s just making up reaþons to be mad bc of Loþt Love.

So Feanor tells all his kids that they are better than everyone elþe because they use þ. Now I have to wonder about Nerdanel and how that courtship went. Preþumably he told her she had to þtart uþing hiþ shibboleth or elþe they couldn’t get married.

Oh, look! A bit about Galadriel! She is considered the greatest of the Noldor, which is pretty great, and also understandable considering she is the only one who didn’t get herself killed for a stupid reason. She is the tallest person, like, ever and “a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar.” Also her hair was so messy that the light of Telperion and Laurelin got caught in it, unfortunate. Feanor was so astonished by the idea of being able to catch the light of the Trees that he kept bothering her for “a tress” (isn’t that like, a lot of hair?). No sorry he must have asked for a treþþ.

From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save only Feanor.

She ended up following Feanor to Beleriand primarily so she could thwart him at every turn, I love her. She is also too proud to ever renounce her exile and return to Valinor... for like seven thousand years. By the end of the Third Age she was wise enough, finally, to go back. We jump back to when she was just a baby to note that even though her father Finarfin used þ since he hung out with the Teleri all the time and she was therefore raised in a þ household, Galadriel hated Feanor so much that she used s anyway.

After this there are some notes on  names! Answers a question that always made me roll my eyes, “why does everyone’s names sound the same??” Elda kids were given a father name at birth that sounded like their dad’s name, and later were given a mother name that described their character because all moms are prophets. What the fuck. They might also get an after name that describes some characteristic or accomplishment, as well as potentially a self name if they just want something cooler (stares at Turin).

The 'true names' remained the first two, but in later song and history any of the four might become the name generally used and recognized. The true names were not however forgotten by the scribes and loremasters or the poets, and they might often be introduced without comment. To this difficulty - as it proved to those who in later days tried to use and adapt Elvish traditions of the First Age as a background to the legends of their own heroes of that time and their descendants - was added the alteration of the Quenya names of the Noldor, after their settlement in Beleriand and adoption of the Sindarin tongue.

I know this difficulty well, as a guy who has read some fanfiction. Introduced  without comment indeed.

We ALSO get an answer to the Finwe/Olwe/Ingwe/Elwe question! That suffix derives from ewe, meaning person. So they were Hair Person, ??? Person, Top/Chief Person, and Star person. Except no those are just speculations, and probably the Eldar didn’t all have to have “meaningful” names, which I like. aaahahahaha also the reason they came up with Sindarin names for everyone is because they were Sensitive To Aesthetics and felt really weird saying a Quenya name when speaking Sindarin. Elves!!

It turns out we’ve been using Feanor’s Sindarin name this whole time! Partially Sindarinized. Whatever. Now I understand about Feanaro I guess. On to his half-siblings: Findis was just a portmanteau baby, UNFORTUNATE. It also turns out the Finwe just straight up named EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS SONS FINWE. And later added something when it became clear what they were good at; Feanor got kuru- (craft?), Fingolfin got nolo- (wisdom), and Finarfin got ara- (nobility, bc he was nice). The reason Feanor’s name sounds different from his half-siblings is that he Sindarinized his mother name and they their father names. Like of course he only wanted to be known by his mother name. THAT GUY.

No sorry I got this wrong, this is awful; Finwe (father name) Nolofinwe (mother name) --> Fin Golfin --> Fingolfin in Sindarin.

Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwe to Nolofinwe before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwe, and so enraged Feanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships.

SCREAMS. THIS IS SO DUMB. FEANOR NEVER STOPS GETTING MAD ABOUT HOW PEOPLE PRONOUNCE WORDS. Finarfin only prefixed his name after his brother’s death meant that he was supposed to be the next king, so I guess there was a long period where you had Fingolfin and Arfin. All Fingolfin’s sons got -kano suffixes, meaning ‘minor commander,’ transliterated into Sindarin as -gon. And HERE we find the information that Fingon “wore his long dark hair in great plaits braided with gold.” And I feel Triumph, because I have discovered a valid origin for another fandom Thing I kind of thought was totally arbitrary. SO much is made by this fandom of one-sentence throwaways, but I guess that’s what you have to do when nine out of ten sentences are about linguistics.

There’s some stuff about Arafinwean names I don’t care about too much, except for Aegnor--this was his mother name, Aikanaro, meaning ‘fell fire.’ Partially because he had Fire In His Eyes (indicating he loved to fight) and also his hair was stiff and stood up on his head like fire. Holy shit I love this he has gone up the to-draw list by like 5 places.

Ooh and it says Turgon reestablished Quenya as Gondolin’s lingua franca, that’s just so Turgon. 

Lastly (I hope) let’s take a look at some Curufinwean names. Recorded largely for my own future reference because I’m assuming the two people reading this already know. [Maedhros] Nelyafinwe (’the third Finwe’ since his father and grandfather were also named Finwe) Maitimo (’hottie’) Russandol (’copper-top’ for his red hair; grandpa Mahtan had the nickname ‘fox’). also notes that he wore a copper circlet. [Maglor] Kanafinwe (’strong-voiced Finwe’) Makalaure (’a metaphor about harps’) [Celegorm] Turkafinwe (’no one’s neck’s as incredibly thick as Finwe’) Tyelkormo/Tyelko (’hasty’) Curufin is just Kurufinwe, his dad’s own name bc he’s the favorite child and also pretty good at crafting I guess. Mother name is Atarinke (’little father,’ because his only characteristic is how much he is just like Feanor) [Caranthir] Morifinwe (’dark Finwe’ because he has black hair) Carnistir (’aww he’s blushing’) (don’t you mean Carniþtir?) [Amras] Pityafinwe (’little Finwe’ awww) Ambarussa (indicating that he and his twin also have red hair, which I am enormously smug about predicting, still) [Amrod] Telufinwe (’last Finwe’; when Feanor said NO MORE KIDS)  Ambarto

So basically they all used their mother names except Curufin. Veeeery interesting.

The story is that Nerdanel named the twins BOTH the name Ambarussa and when Feanor begged her to at least give them different names (’look! I made minimum effort! you do it too!’) she said “I will change one of their names to Ambarto, by lottery.” Later she prophecies that one of them will not set foot on Middle Earth and he... names the dead twin with her extra name when he gets burned alive with the ships. Also of significance here, I think, is that Curufin is the one he recruited to help him burn the ships, because he only trusts himself. Fucked up.

[vardasvapors]

gurguliare replied to your post:                   crocordile replied to your post:                  ...                

   ‘veiled soon-to-be-ex-catholic hysteria’ is SUCH a LOOK    

Real talk: practical theodicy is the most ... fascinating thing in a world where the metaphysical questions about souls and afterlives and whether or not god and angels etc exist and what they are like, 90% directly answerable. The faith aspect is pushed like, waaaaaaay back to this tiny sliver of content covering ‘why does it happen THIS way for US and THIS way for YOU’ and ‘but what about the far future tho’ and ‘okay but like, OUTSIDE the universe there’s...?’ and things, because most of the rest of it is just, confirmed in-universe fact! Cut out the middleman, just expose the important non-semantics! it’s really great. also: “And for that reason I said that if your tale is true, then all in Arda is vain, from the pinnacle of Oiolossë to the uttermost abyss.”

Finrod.... :((((((

   also andie sorry for clarifying at your clarifications endlessly but don’t acknowledge this apology or we’ll never escape    

I’M SORRY about clarifying your clarif-- okay no

linguisticparadox replied to your post:                   gurguliare replied to your post:                ...                

   I was gonna be mad until you amended it to “beloved twit” bc I love Finrod with all my heart and soul    

sjhdfbsd YES an important distinction (finrod = literally my favorite silm elf...technically I sooooort of sliiiiightly love galadriel and elrond more, but only in lotr not in the silm, i don’t really consider them silm characters, and silm and lotr characters are apples to oranges for me)

actualmermaid replied to your post:                   crocordile replied to your post:                  ...                

   I am so much of a Feanorian fan that I went and had their symbol tattooed on my body but in what universe are they textual underdogs, like. really. they have the best stuff in the book but making them 100% sympathetic and always justified in everything they do robs them of most of what makes them compelling in the first place    

It’s like, the Godfather if the Corleones really were a respectable olive oil business or smth. idk. that’s a dumb example. but just yeah, 100% this.

kareenvorbarra replied to your post:                   crocordile replied to your post:                  ...                

   “the narrative is biased against the feanorians” discourse is still one of the most puzzling things i’ve ever seen in this fandom    

I just have to sit down and chinhands sometimes. Like. Do you know the sheer number of characters I would kill to have half as much juicy in-text character-clarification and focus and description and nuance and dialogue and filled-in timeline details as the Feanorians....(I mean, I GUESS Finrod technically gets several times more dialogue than any other Finwean except maybe Galadriel (in lotr), but still...? that’s, a philosophy debate? whereas the whole narrative is focused around the Feanorians’ tragedy - yes, all about tragic flaws and self-destructiveness etc of course, but it’s still written/presented as MUCH more similar to...Turin rather than Sauron, for example)

psychopompious replied to your post:                   actualmermaid replied to your post:               …                

   also seeing as I adore the Arafinwions, maybe I’ve finally found the answer to why I can’t write any of the Feanorions to save my life (with the lone exception of Celegorm, but does he really count)    

djhfsjf you know Celegorm IS kind of a weird standout one isn’t he? I wonder what it is about him…I was always very taken with his hippie animal-talking Orome fanboying nature guy aesthetic + psycho murderer who just like stands up and yells about shit to rile people up and just grabs ppl he thinks are hot bc he wants them and like, yells curses at his horse and dog when they don’t obey him like idk he’s fantastic man, and v different from most evil tolkien characters….tolkien is really into the sneaking/scheming sweet-voiced hidden villainy thing and Celegorm is, so not that