#base serpent

[nightmaresyrup]

That stupid snake skin in Bonny village, to feed your brain worms.

"Give me your firstborn and I give you powers to survive jar," or another shaman that escaped then became another god-queen.

[damehimari]

Mother...

Was this thy unholy design?...

to turn mine conquest into a prison of time?...

Messmer's tone change hurt my soul.

[katyahina]

Romina, Scarlet Rot and God of Rot interpretation? What is the Abyss and what 'stagnation' has to do with Scarlet Rot?

(This is a reply for an ask I've got on my other blog) Anon I am sorry I am THIS late, I swear it was just me deliberately avoiding progressing in the DLC because I didn't want it to end + bad timing :pensive: But thank you for leaving this ask because I did want to discuss her as soon as I've met her!

What Happened:

She WAS a victim on Messmer's tyranny, and shown in the second trailer ( x )! Moreover, she originally appears to be from Belurat; not only this trailer shows Messmer specifically burning it, but also this is the exact previous scene before Romina appears:

So I am getting an impression that originally, these buds appeared in Belurat, and somehow Romina knew to relocate them somewhere else:

+ Also, if anyone here can read Japanese please let me know because I've heard that a more accurate translation would be 'she found a divinity and clung to it' or something alike! Here is the Japanese text:

全てを焼かれた教会で ロミナは異形の神性を見出し 禍々しい、朱い腐敗に縋った

焼け跡に���また蕾が芽吹くように

Abyss and Stagnation in this:

My initial interpretation was that originally, this type of buds was growing IN Belurat, and then what she saved got relocated in Rauh Ruins, but "within the scorched remains" part makes it sound as though their fate was being decided right in the moment of the tragedy! So, somehow, what later became Scarlet Rot appeared within the ruin! After all, Formless Mother is another precedent of a god originating from the tragedy:

But why would a plant-insectoid life sprout within the fire? So, basically, I'll dive into headcanons territory for this post, but hear me out! We are not sure what the 'Abyss' is, however.. what IF, when Messmer gets a bit TOO into using his powers, the power of Abyssal Serpent is capable of opening sort of a 'gateway' into somewhere else, and some kind of horror might escape that 'Abyss'?

+ I need to add that Abyss of the serpent plaguing Messmer and Abyss of the woods tormented by Frenzy are different things though; whereas serpent's Abyss is 深淵 meaning literally an abyss, Woods' Abyss is 奈落 that means Naraka (Hindu Hell)! His serpent is AKTUALY named Base Serpent, but he refers the 'Abyss' in his Stage 2 transition: '光無き、深淵の蛇が'. ( x ) In fact, his dialogue in both English and Japanese original suggests the 'Abyss' is a PLACE, where Base Serpent comes from! The mysterious space without light!

Look I can't help using this meme just deal with it fdsgfdgs So, let's say that Messmer got so unhinged that the gravity of his powers still opened up the Abyss a little, even despite the seal Marika gave to him!

The next interesting thing is that there are no traces of Scarlet Rot in Belurat, despite Romina presumably releasing/creaing it right on that spot! There ARE poisoned swamp, the illness that turns people into fly-men, and even giant Spider Scorpions that are a variant specifically developed because of Romina:

+ they likewise deal regular poison, not Scarlet Rot! Some of them developed the wings as well:

So it is more likely that what Romina allowed to live (to the worse or to the better you decide) was not yet the Scarlet Rot itself, however it developed INTO it later, together with her. But what was freed that day and what left its traces in Belurat, as well as spreading across more of the Shadow Realm with at least two villages full of man-fly sickness, was 'stagnation'!

It is a concept commonly addressed across other Fromsoft's games, specifically the stagnation of water 穢れ (kegare)! Poison and Scarlet Rot are connected through themes of poison AND stagnation of water! It is what becomes a poisonous swamp, one of the most Rot places is literally named Stillwater Cave and all that. Scarlet Rot is a 'stronger' version of the venom that becomes of stagnation!

^ (looking through this ( x ) model view video) Additionally, Romina features not only part of the scorpion but also part of the centipede, and centipedes were used as a symbol of human dregs in Sekiro and Bloodborne!

I've also noticed that Blood of Formless Mother, Scarlet Rot and Deathblight are all connected by shared themes of plantlife and spontaneoutsly sprouting winged insects! With the cursed blood, flowers quite literally grow from it and flies spawn from impurities within festering blood swamps. Deathblight are literally roots with multiple flies spawning along them + often getting to fly free too. Scarlet Rot IS associated with flowers and butterflies, and whereas Malenia herself never got insectoid wings (since wings of Goddes of Rot ARE the butterflies, like stated by Romina's incantation), her knights did:

(Close look by Zullie the Witch ( x ) as I've never took a picture)

These three scourges feel like three ugly siblings to me fsdhhfds Needless to mention that Blood Oath, Scarlet Rot and general poison incantations are crammed into the same category, and Death ones aren't here only because they're sorceries!

More interestingly, in Rauh Ruins we find not only Scarlet Rot, but also the Bloodfiends (so, the Formless Mother guys) AND Deathblight:

^ I forgot to take the picture as a proof that the Dancing Lion in Rauh uses Deathblight, so here is screenshot from this ( x ) video of battling it! There are NO Deathroots anywhere near its arena, however it summons Basylisks in the second stage and deals Deathblight damage itself! Divine beasts, additionally, are Belurat thing too!

So, we have all three of these 'affiliations' in Rauh Ruins, giving a strong impression that it is full of Belurat survivors! Whereas the man-flies sickness is found here too, Romina, Bloodfiends and death-dealing Dancing Lion all feel like they've went separate Pokemon Eevelution from the same initial 'stagnation' concept that is the sourse of fly sickness fhhsdgfds I think that either 1) it is exactly what I just joked about, and stagnation is able to naturally develop into one of these stronger "branches" over time or 2) it develops into something specific under influence of an outer god; Deathblight doesn't need 'Prince of Death' since Outer God of Death IS a thing!

Survivors of Belurat here found their affiliations, initially getting afflicted by the "clean" form of it, fly sickness Romina allowed to escape and live!

^ So yeah @ second anon, I do also think that Romina in Rauh guards what is left of her civilisation! Such as one of like, two Dancing Lions and other Hornsent that unfortunately got manfly sickness too! Except, she is not antagonistic to the Scarlet Rot or sees it as her tragedy, but on the contrary: she sympathised with it!

I know it sounds more like a fairytale than an solid theory, but my impression is that a lot of 'waste' goes into the Abyss space and supposedly should have been burnt by the Base Serpent forever! Not as something inherently evil, but just a natural part of the course of life! Eiglay is the God-Devouring serpent, too! Both of them serve as the forces that ensure everything and everybody meets their end eventually, they might even be related! Again, Dark Souls for one had ten Primordial Serpents! We know three here (Base Serpent, Winged Serpent and God-Devouring Serpent) but it could be still a throwback like Fromsoft loves doing!

I think maybe someone, at some point, believed that living forever was a better idea and might have "killed" Base Serpent and Eiglay both! As we know from Rykard's last words though, 'serpent never dies' and he probably was right!

^ Whereas Eiglay had to grow back from a tiny snake again, Base Serpent settled in Messmer's body being so tiny that it could curl behind his eye! Both needed to recover their former power, so whatever eventually slipped in the Abyss was free to persist, rot further and escape back into the living world given the chance!

+ bonus:

Trina ends up having a lot of petals and flowers as part of her body, not unlike Romina, whereas Miquella had insectoid wings at the moment of being kidnapped! The same trademarks of the 'stagnation' again!

I questioned whether it was just Crucible at first, since it also features flowers and wings! In the DLC we've learned that the Fell God himself was connected with the Crucible (Furnace Visage) and Radagon has his red hair due to the curse of his Fire Giants (Giant's Red Braid) 🤔 But.. crucibles are MANY things. It is also horns, spikes, feathered wings, scales, you name that! A LOT of aspects of organic life and not just these two! So I think the Crucible Curse is safe to stay within Morgott and Mohg, and this more likely refers to Miquella himself getting infected at some point! Whether it was having sucked Scarlet Rot out of Freya's wound, or napping in the Haligtree that was getting slowly scarlet-rotten, or both! Sure there are no traces of it left when he becomes a God, but Trina was discarded before that of course! Alternatively, he was a victim of stagnation himself due to not being able to age physically. He, himself, was a lot like Scarlet Buds that are "never to bloom". Endless child state of a body and buds that can't bloom are like eggs that can't hatch but will go terribly bad over time.. what is MORE stagnant?

Who is the God of Rot and why the pink color?

Another side of Romina is a tail of a scorpion, and the giant variant of Spider Scorpions is said to be the result of her actions! At the same time, God of Rot itself was scorpion-like!

I think this makes it... oddly coincidential, that God of Rot is a scorpion at least partially, whereas scorpions are native for the Shadow Realm AND were important animals for Belurat! Like I said before, Belurat strangely has no signs of Scarlet Rot for a place where Romina presumably created/unleashed it!

So, maybe rather than God of Rot already existing as is, it received a particular form in the 'outside' world! I'd say the same for Formless Mother, but her form is ABSENSE of form kind of fdhshdfs Maybe 'receiving the character' is a better way to describe it! Formless Blood, Scarlet Rot and most likely Deathblight didn't exist "outside" but developed from the shared source, and their gods (at least two of them) were born thanks to people! God of Rot might have manifested from a giant scorpion Romina took special care of, or a scorpion who got the 'divine' energy for another reason since giant variants are still not JUST in Rauh! Again, like how Formless Mother manifested in the shadow of a corpse of someone else! The Scarlet Rot became a thing thanks to Romina, developing within her over time!

Again, this is just my idea that Outer Gods are "born" in "our" world rather than simply exist as is, especially since 'outer' is just a type of gods meant to be discerned from Marika's family and who are like Lovecraftian mythos! I just think so because the scorpions connection is a bit too coincidential! It is not necessary!

Eiglay is a God-Devouring Serpent, not Demigod-Devouring Serpent, however, so I think in either case her purpose had more to do with not letting guys like this to ruin the world! Things just must die eventually, not endlessly exist via endless rot/rebirth cycle not allowing for any truly new life to sprout. It makes it double awesome that Base Serpent, and maybe even Eiglay herself, are connected with the fire element as fire itself is ALSO not just an evil force of destruction! It is meant to help the nature to "clean" so it doesn't rot; this power simply must be kept in check to not burn SO much that there is nothing left to be born from the ash and ruin *looks at Frenzied Flame*

Lesbian flag colors joke aside, it seems that color pink is a mark of lacking the master and/or the capacity to bloom! I do think that blooming is a thing only a Demigod is able to do! +remember that Millicent is a unique sprout of Malenia, carrying more of her signs as a Demigod than other girls!

Orange/red is the color of 'true' Scarlet Rot, and you could see even God of Rot itself was orange from Scorpion's Stinger look! It craves the buds that will bloom to grow stronger and increase, similarly to how Formless Mother craves wounds!

+ I also think that Bloodflame is the mark of more "perfect" form of the same concept similarly, as it becomes self-cleaning this way! It similarly could only be accomplished by getting a Demigod (Mohg) involved, whereas regular Bloodfiends are using just the blood itself! Then, Deathblight was not receiving the big roots as we could witness by Dancing Lion in Rauh, without getting a Demigod (Godwyn) involved! The cringe triplets........

________________________

So in the conclusion, Romina reached out for the 'twisted divinity' she witnessed somewhere in the middle of the ruin of everything she knew before, similarly to how Bloodfiends chose to revere the 'twisted deity' found in a corpse of their ancestor as they've lost everything! These two affinities have connotation with strong misery, and it is additionally confirmed by how Millicent can only bloom if she experiences the pain of betrayal! Some sinister power only appears within a lot of pain and death, but on itself it is just "flowers and wings", and a concrete God is born in the place it appears at, depending on the circumstances. It needs the miserable person as much as the miserable person needs it; a call is nothing without the receiver. Together, they define more specific purpose and affinity for it to continue existing and poisoning everything!

...not 100% sure that Deathblight is just as similar, because how do you birth death? Maybe it similarly came to be through the first person to die (Nito, you?????)

P.S.: I'll be damned if the water Dancer Fairy didn't originate from Rauh and simply freaked out upon seeing Romina telling the God of Rot "may you find your worth in the waking world" fsdhfhds

[katyspersonal]

If you defeat Messmer the hornsent will say that the snake emerging from him is a "sublime scene" or something similar i wonder is the snake is something that has been considered as holy/ divine by the hornsent. + What is the deal with abyss serpent? Marika was so afraid of it she banished her son for it, i know gameplay doesn't necessarily equal lore but the Abyssal serpent doesn't seem to be that dangerous

;-; This is like the third time I forget to answer an ask and only remember about it when I get a similar one I am so sorry dhfhsd

As for the Vengeance-Seeking Hornsent, I think it was either a sarcasm or expression of satisfaction to see how monstrous Messmer was with his own eyes, given the place of that line in the full dialogue:

That being said, it doesn't exclude seeing the Base Serpent as divine either! It could always be sort of both, a bit like how Fell God is both revered and feared/dreaded!

I actually touched upon the 'Abyss' and Base Serpent in my post diving into what happened with Romina recently ( x ), so for the starters I'll copy a small bit from it to prevent the confusion! Ymir states that Marika's roots are 'in madness' and flowers on the painting of Midra's Manse in its past are the same as in Shaman's Village, but just in case the 'abysses' are not the same:

I need to add that Abyss of the serpent plaguing Messmer and Abyss of the woods tormented by Frenzy are different things though; whereas serpent’s Abyss is 深淵 meaning literally an abyss, Woods’ Abyss is 奈落 that means Naraka (Hindu Hell)! His serpent is AKTUALY named Base Serpent, but he refers the 'Abyss’ in his Stage 2 transition: '光無き、深淵の蛇が’. ( x ) In fact, his dialogue in both English and Japanese original suggests the 'Abyss’ is a PLACE, where Base Serpent comes from! The mysterious space without light!

So, the Abyss is the place without light, the 'hole' within what Greater Will entails and embraces:

@val-of-the-north also says that it further proves that Frenzied Flame is basically a "sibling" or the second side of the same coin, as its "face" likewise has a black hole at the centre!

Elden Ring itself is light, the blue stars controlling humans and the amber stars controlling Demigods are light, Erdtree and the greater tree predating it are light... Light is the essence of life and the orders, not even just the Golden Order however it has been THE order for a while! Messmer and Queelign repeat that all "lightless" should burn in his flames, and they are doing it for the sake of Marika's beliefs. So, the 'lightless' part of the issue is very important! It is fearsome as something they cannot fully control, it is antithesis for life the way they know it and they are used to! At the same time, no longer seeing the light is something grace-given lifeforms fear (Iris of Occultation)!

However, another, and arguably more important aspect of why Base Serpent is something feared, is Marika's fear of fire! For one, she went at war with the Fire Giants because they might have burnt her precious Erdtree, and she'd lost everything again:

(+ Also worth to note that the Fire Monks that peer into flame and go 'hmmm actually..... 👀' and get blinded discover the Bloodstar, and Alberich who did the same by blinding self is "heretical" sorcerer! That's why I think Lightless Abyss is not empty but various horrors live in it, and Formless Mother appeared from it too! Again, not the point of this post as I already talked about it in Romina post I linked earlier)

Another precedent was burying the Nomads because Shabriri said that they were worshipping Frenzied Flame:

(From the video that recovers Kale's quest ( x ))

There is also this:

I assume the prophesy has to come from the Hornsent in some capacity! Like maybe when the Two Fingers gave her aid to ascend to Godhood, she already knew from the Greater Will (?) that she won't rule forever! Ranni and Miquella both refer to the ages they want as 'thousand years voyage', so perhaps any era being set on the timer is a common sentiment! The Age of the Erdtree logically must end with the Erdtree being burnt, of course, and there is Empyrean Grandam who is a Hornsent..

I am yet not sure whether Melina is Gloam-Eyed Queen "killed" and reborn, making her instead an adopted daughter to keep her fire under control or she is a real daughter but stripped from her true power and body because of the fear of fire or both! I just think that back then, looooong before Marika could've predicted the thorns created by Radagon needed to be burnt, Melina being so "downgraded" for someone who is her daughter also had to do with the fire!

Messmer getting discarded is just an extension of it. Or her not willing to deal with the fear of the Erdtree getting potentially burnt because of the Base Serpent's fire!

As for whether it is an "evil" power? I likewise don't believe so! Fromsoft always makes 'eldrich' Gods either powers of nature or just creatures far from humans' concepts that just vibe! It is Gods who are basically just humans with too much power who can be evil and cause havoc, like Gwyn and his family and Marika and her family! Base Serpent is not "evil", it is a force of nature; necessary inferno to burn the nature, so it doesn't rot and later can be born anew from the ruins! INRI means 'Iesvs Nazarenvs Rex Ivdæorvm', but it also has an occult interpretation: 'Ignis Natura Renovatur Integram' ('All nature is regenerated by fire')! I believe Messmer has to be not only Marika's firstborn but also have special position compared to other Demigods, because he is "necessary" evil. A "promised" end to Marika's reign, who maybe is not even cursed but rather hard-coded to be this way by the Greater Will itself.. because Base Serpent comes from the Abyss inside it, Fell God on the other hand is not connected with serpentine stuff! When Messmer gets rid of Marika's eye, he promises oblivion that you and him will fall into, which again refers to the lightless Abyss.

The only evidence to Base Serpent being dangerous is that it has to be kept in check by the Winged Serpent:

It is not inherently evil, but it IS chaotic! It would not know when or where to stop or how to take the pace, much like the element of fire itself who simply burns whatever it meets on the way! And yet again, how "evil" can a force of nature be? It is "evil" for those who don't want to burn, but that's it and it is not a moral value but a (reasonable) fear! Burning things needs to be smart and balanced, or else it will just be 'Frenzied Flame at home'!

_____________________

Anyways thank you for asking so much!! I love discussing this particular topic a lot actually! +I assume Eiglay is a similar kind of serpent, but specifically promised death of Gods (maybe Outer Gods specifically, even) rather than Demigods and various things mortals built and birthed! Maybe she is even a sister of Base Serpent of sorts

[wraith-caller]

Regarding your concerns over Eiglay and Messmer's inclusion in the story, I should note that a skin belonging to Eiglay is found within the Land of Shadow, in Bonny Village. So there seems to be more to the picture we just don't know about.

Yes, there's definitely some sort of overlap going on! they just become confusing for me. The placement of the snakeskin in bonny village being somewhere of such emotional significance to marika and messmer, paired with its proximity to the 'o mother' gesture, initially made me think this was a skin shed by the base serpent. however, comparing the base serpent to eiglay's shed skin from the base game, they have very different facial structures. the bonny village skin def looks more like eiglay, which leaves me wondering why is this place at all significant to her? there's further overlap given the implications of rykard's presence in the land of shadows - we can find abductor virgins there, and it is almost certainly the 'foreign land' that he met tanith in. rykard may have also brought certain hornsent design notes back with him to the volcano manor(there are spiraling columns there somewhat similar, though not identical, to those found in belurat). his boss room is also reminiscent of enir-ilim and the divine gates themselves, with dead bodies so plentiful they're used almost like building material. and there are even winged serpents in the manor, though again it must be noted they look quite distinct from messmer's. so where's that leave things? was eiglay roaming the land of shadows long before it was sealed off, and this is where rykard first learned of her? possibly! she's ancient, after all. but is there anything else of her here, and why has her skin remained in that village after such a long time? the man-serpent ashes say, "It is said that long ago, the elder serpent that dwelled on Mt. Gelmir devoured a demigod..." so she came to settle in Mt. Gelmir sometime before the shattering. maybe she was simply prowling LoS for gods to eat, in a time where there were more of them to go around? but if so, what has she got to do with the base serpent, if anything? they seem so very distinct from each other, not just in form but intention. eiglay consumes gods and can birth children, the base serpent is an accursed entity whose presence can be subdued and is found only in messmer. rykard's melding with eiglay is far more gruesome than what's going on with messmer, even after he removes marika's seal. she just seems so much more her own entity, whereas the abyssal serpent is entirely connected to messmer.

[wiltkingart]

messssmer

[drenched-in-sunlight]

Death, Serpent and the maiden.

(this is like my 3rd time rebranding my Godwyn design my god…. But i think he should be a little bit unsettling, as a treat.)

[ami-fly]

abyssal serpent, shorn of light.

[mittsushi]

Embrace thine oblivion, as shall I

[crumblingfaggotazula]

Base Serpent Messmer

[gebo4482]

Messmer - Closer Look by BonfireVN #3

[folkdevilism]

Messmer's Right Eye | Details [X]

[damehimari]

Base Serpent

I offer my life Cursed in this shrine Broken roots entwined And I feel my insides breaking down I bury it in time I want to be part of light..

music really channels something in me to paint how I am feeling.

[karpachev]

Everything can be used as an arrow if you (are stupid enough) leveled str

Your typical target practice gone wrong, gone fiery✌️ Explanation's under cut

So i got this stupid silly idea while playing the dlc. So you know that Messmer's spear r2 is an explosion basically. Yeah, i randomly thought what if it can SHOT AS A HARPOON XD And greatbows can fire harpoons as an arrow, so... i feel stupid lmao

[eldenbiscuit]

Finally found that prattling pate in the Impaler’s Catacombs

[ngc7009]

Embrace thine oblivion, as shall I...