#barthomeloi lorelei

[kaibutsushidousha]

Do you have any predictions on how Lorelei Barthomeloi's going to look like now that Dead Apostles Ancestors have gotten their buffs and Lord Trambelio has less than half of the od that Ciel has? How would you design the Aristocratic faction's big shot?

I don't have a direct answer to the question. I believe everything that was previously established about Lorelei's brand of magecraft is no longer applicable after the remake. So instead I'll use this convenient ask as a platform to write a post I've been meaning to write for a while. A commented translation of Lorelei's old profile focusing on what I believe still goes and what I believe no longer does.

Introduction: Barthomeloi Lorelei London's Clock Tower, a central institution of the Mage's Association, is the proud home of The Queen: the greatest mage in the present era. Clock Tower's assistant headmaster. The current Wizard Marshall, commanding a choir called Battalion of Clones. Her magecraft's element is wind.

This initial part I think is maintained in full. There is a huge asterisk on the Battalion of Clones, but I'll get to it when I reach the profile section that explains what the Battalion was.

She's also a vampire hunter who previously defeated 2 out of the 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors and handed them to the Church.

Her track record is confirmedly gone with the remake. Sorry, only Ciel is allowed to be cool now. But when Ciel is fighting Vlov, she mentions some madman who invades vampire lairs from the front door and challenges them to fair duels, and that's 100% Lorelei.

She's an orthodox mage with nothing unique about her magecraft, but since she has the highest value in every stat, she consistently produced excellent results in every situation. She believes simple is best. The archetype and perfect model of the idea that one who is strong enough doesn't need a special ability.

This part I can very confidently say is gone. I can even bring up two completely different reasons.

The point of Lorelei favoring high stats over gimmicks is to portray her as a mirror to nemesis Ortenrosse. And the point of pre-remake Ortenrosse thinking little of unique powers is that he was Brunestud's first follower and held too much respect for the moon man to devote himself to something beyond a vampire's basic kit. However, as of the remake, Principles are part of a vampire's basic kit. Having unique powers is now built into Brunestud's blueprint, so there's no reason for Ortenrosse to continue committing to being boring. Ortenrosse will have a power defined by his Idea Blood and the Barthomeloi will have a magecraft system suspiciously similar to Ortenrosse's Principle.

Nasu mentioned the Barthomeloi family once after establishing the remake lore. In Clock Tower 2015, the Barthomeloi are namedropped as the Lord family commanding the Department of Individual Fundamentals. Shortly after, Sanda established Individual Fundamentals is run by Solonea and Policies is run by Barthomeloi, with Nasu trying to clean up the retcon by saying in his blog that the Clock Tower 2015 line is just wrong. But it's very telling that at some point Lorelei was slated to Individual Fundamentals since studies to foster one's unique abilities are very much the opposite of what our beta version of the Barthomeloi family would be about (it does speak about Lorelei as an individual, but we'll get there).

In fact, her standard combat stance is to bring along 50 elite mages and slaughter the enemy by commanding and instructing them without a shred of disorder. She takes the form of a young empress conducting an orchestra. All troopers, unified by their unique lack of uniqueness, are first-class mages, with Lorelei herself being supposedly able to take on a Dead Apostle Ancestor in direct solo combat.

First, let's address the elephant in the room that with Ancestors being raised to the ballpark of gods, there's no way Lorelei can 1v1 them anymore. She could easily be stronger than McDonell and Karmaglyph, but the power gap can't be that big.

Now to the part that matters. The Battalion of Clones. I think the section above already makes my point clear enough. Lorelei taking Individual Fundamentals somewhere along her character retooling shows an abandonment of the "unique in their lack of uniqueness idea" angle.

What Lorelei ultimately got was Policies, whose most featured members are Goredolf and Hishiri. Both of them are mages who default to their unique abilities (Musik's metalized punches and Hishiri's Mystic Eyes), and Dolf is far from what anyone would call elite.

Of course, the answer could easily be that the Department is bigger than Lorelei's elite squad. You can be from Policies without being from the Battalion of Clones. In fact, you could say there's evidence for it, considering Goredolf from Policies first entered Chaldea with a group of exactly 50 mage followers. If he was part of the Battalion, it should be a group of 49 followers plus himself. Unrelated, the idea of Lorelei lending Dolf the Battalion still feels insane to me, even for an operation as big as entering another Lord's nest.

Anyways, the biggest argument against my ideas is that Fate/Labyrinth confirms that post-Remake, the Battalion of Clones still exists by this name despite the concept that names them, the idea that all 50 shared the same non-identity, being seemingly discarded. Much to think about.

Explanation: Assorted notes One of the Lords, the ruling class of London's Mage's Association. Her family has one of the oldest bloodlines in the association but their origin and style of choosing heirs is kept a secret.

This part touches the core of Lorelei's expected backstory in Tsuki 2, so I'm fully confident it stays. It's absolutely essential the Barthomeloi, this inexplicably ancient lineage of mages who carry this generational grudge against the oldest mage-turned-vampire while coincidentally sharing his core philosophies, does not want to reveal its origins. Haha, who could their originating ancestor possibly be?

They have some modicum of friendship with the fellow Lords of the Archibald family and only them.

This part says more about Kayneth than it says about Lorelei and her dad. There's not much I can say now, but I'll come back to this with a Kayneth appreciation tangent when I get to the line about Lorelei's personality so I can elaborate on the implications.

They left no written records of why their family is named Barthomeloi.

I'll say this stays as is. Nasu clearly has a really dumb wordplay 20 years in the making that connects the meaning of Barthomeloi to Ortenrosse and we know he wouldn't throw a stupid pun away.

The clan first appeared at the time of the Clock Tower's foundation, attained their Lord title through their powerful Blue Blood (noble Magic Circuits), and stood at the top for centuries since.

Changed. Case Files Material's timetable places the Clock Tower's foundation in the 500s and the introduction of the Barthomeloi in the 1000s.

Their current head sees the name Lorelei as nothing more than an appendage added to her name after she took over as the family head. They all only consider the sound "Barthomeloi" to be their name.

Lorelei growing up without her own name is a thing I'm 50/50 on. The bit seems to exist mainly as a thematic extension of the old Barthomeloi and Ortenrosse pursuit of a lack of individual identity. A Barthomeloi has to be the Barthomeloi ideal instead of their own person. Much like the instrumentalists in the Battalion of Clones were all clones of each other and therefore clones of nobody, the conductor is likewise raised to be a clone of previous conductors, tracing all the way back to the original, who in some major ways can't escape being a clone of Trhvmn Ortenrosse. And I already made clear that I consider this character trait to be dropped.

But. The purpose of the Department of Policies and the Clock Tower timetable establishing that the Barthomelois arrived laying the groundwork for the Clock Tower's aristocratic system shows that their unreasonably controlling aspects are still a core element of the Bartholomei character, meaning Lorelei being raised without a name is still a thing that can still happen even without the anti-individuality themes.

Perhaps due to the perfectionism beliefs on every generation's part, the Barthomeloi heads are raised exclusively within their manor, never appearing to others until they are fully accomplished mages. Nothing embarrasses them more the stepping into the big world without being ready for it. Consequently, at the moment they first step into the Mage's Association, they're already the commander of a department.

This part I feel like it stays at is. There's no need for it to be gone. This homeschooled ignorance can play into Lorelei's waifu side.

In a sense, they're more fervently aristocratic than the Dead Apostle Ancestors, and consider even their fellow Lords to owe obedience to a nobler, more capable blood. The only mages that the Barthomeloi heads see as their equals are the embodiers of First Magic.

This one is a bit that I absolutely need to stay as is because it's so much more interesting with newer context. The text says "embodier" rather than user, so it should refer to witches in general, and it's now established that (non-Meinster) witches in the modern era are regarded as living garbage by the world of magecraft at large. It's fascinating to me that the Bartholomei are defined by their dedication to their arbitrary social tier list and said list simply just

S: Barthomeloi, trash

D: Everyone else

F: Vampires REEEEEEEEEEE

She holds a peerless obsession for the king of the 27 Ancestors, the White-Winged Duke Ortenrosse, and is participating in an operation squad to thwart the Aylesbury Ritual that he has been arranging for the past few decades. She never engaged in early-stage sabotage for one reason: to lure out the White-Winged Duke and watch the mortified screams of the disgraced vampires as she thwarts the ritual mid-procedure.

Needless to say at this point, this is the part that needs to stay exactly as is. It's the conflict that gives her reason to be in Tsuki 2 and what the majority of her other character traits in this profile exist for.

Source: The Dark Six (title subject to change) She's the leader of the Mage's Association's Aylesbury Inspection League... except no other mages cooperate with her due to her excessively aristocratic principles, making our problem girl a solo leader. That's not how it works, dear. Due to her special upbringing, she has no interest or tolerance for domestic chores.

This is all purely Lorelei waifu points, so that will be kept intact.

Her personal principle was to measure someone's worth not by their personality, but by what makes them unique. Therefore, she's relatively interested in people with powerful talents.

I imagine this will stay, although it will be a lot less meaningful now, considering that Lorelei's innate interest in unique abilities will no longer be an antithesis to the anti-uniqueness tradition that was going to define the Barthomeloi and Ortenrosse.

This character is thoroughly aristocratic in her beliefs, however, because she believes her blood is the only noble one, she cares nothing about the other nobles. Lorelei sees no difference between the working class and the ruling class. What makes one from either category stand out is not their birth, but the individual abilities they learned.

Lorelei's most important waifu factor. Absolutely stays. But let's get to what really matters. Kayneth. The only guy who maintains a friendship with the Barthomeloi family. What does this say about him?

See, Kayneth is a genius who knows he's a genius and loves the feeling of that. He's prideful and loves boasting. He felt the need to replace a perpetual motion engine with a ball of mercury just so he could better brag about his aesthetics. His material profiles even cite his likes as "himself". His self-esteem is absolutely top-tier.

But as much as Kayneth loves praising himself, he always implies that he doesn't like being praised by others. The higher echelons of the world of magecraft are a field of equivalent exchange, where everyone only helps others for their own benefit and these kinds of deals that define Kayneth's upbringing are only worth trusting when both sides are on an even playing field. He 100% believes that he's special, but can't react positively to special treatment.

He's madly in love with Sola-Ui, a woman who treats him with cold indifference. He fails his relationship with Diarmuid because Diarmuid just wanted someone to deposit his loyalty on and Kayneth is unable to process an uneven relationship in good faith. So when Lorelei's profile tells us that Kayneth holds a major friendship with the guys who treat him the same way they treat the janitor, all I can think is "Yes!! This is so Kayneth!".

She is the typical archetype of the character who shoves away her human side as hard as she can... She is currently being considered for one of the main heroine slots, maybe...

With all the random mentions the Barthomeloi/Policies get, I feel like it's pretty much guaranteed at this point that Lorelei will be a main heroine in Tsuki 2. But with the remake being set in 2014 and Lorelei being defined as young and new at this, all the Barthomeloi mentions in Case Files and stuff should now be about her father (not that any of them said anything character-specific).

[typemoonsmashorpass]

[chuunijianghuyuri]

Barthomeloi Lorelei is my new favourite Type-Moon character I've never actually seen in a Type-Moon work and maybe never will lol.

[intrepid-fictioneer-7]

I didn't realize that trying to incorporate some of the Clock Tower's big shots would require so much obscure Nasuverse trivia. To anyone out there thinking that it might be a cool idea to feature other department heads in a scene, don't do that. Don't repeat my mistake.

Okay, so this budget meeting was the HARDEST part of this fic. I even made a note at the beginning, because it is ridiculous just how much the information about Clock Tower faculty is spread around various Nasuverse canons.

Not even Fate canons. I spent more than an hour just reading the obscure information about the department heads on Type Moon wiki.

Vice Director of Clock Tower? You won't know about her unless you read Tsukihime side materials. Or read wiki.

These are quotes from the Case Files oneshot Time Magic Is For All Intents And Purposes A Useless And Dangerous Magecraft, which you should absolutely read, and its companion author commentary.

I find these innocuous comments interesting. They aren’t wrong per se, I will be the first to admit as a Case Files fan that Clock Tower minutiae is not widespread knowledge. But I think they reveal a fascinating difference in fandom experience.

See, the author considers the  Vice Director of Clock Tower, Lorelei Barthomeloi, obscure, and she is, objectively. She appears in one short story for Tsukihime II, a game that never came out, has a profile in a side material encyclopedia, and is a blink-and-you-miss-it cameo in Carnival Phantasm. By all accounts, she is an obscure character...or she should be.

Because to me, and I’m certain many others in the fandom, Lorelei is basically Nasu fics’ equivalent of HP fanfics’ Daphne Greengrass: an obscure character in canon frequently used (and overused) in fanfics. Lorelei is not used the same way as Daphne (for one, I don’t think she is made the main character often), but she is often used in similar roles; notably, in Overpowered Shirou fics, she tends to be Shirou’s love interest or one of them as part of his harem. Usually, the scenario is that they meet while hunting Dead Apostles.

But you would only know this if you are familiar with how often Shirou is made overpowered, wanked, and turned into a Sue in fanfics, and the methods used. Especially if your exposure to Fate fanfics is on fanfiction.net, which is where they proliferate. However, if, as I suspect the author is, your sole and primary consumption of Fate fanfics is on Ao3, where the climate and culture tend to be completely different, you might have never read or heard of a Shirouwank fanfic, much less become familiar with its usual tropes. There are people in the fandom to whom “Incarnation of Sword” means nothing.

I don’t know, I just thought it was funny, after my initial surprised reaction:

“Clock Tower faculty is such obscure trivia...”

“Indeed, I don’t think the average fan would know about them since they are more prominent in Case Files, and...”

“...like the Vice Director!”

“...Lorelei? Obscure???”

It’s always refreshing to get humbled.

[reignsan]

Made a nicer to look at version of my earlier Lords of the Clock Tower post.

[fatebeastbirthorder]

Step. Step. Step.

A woman, an unexpected visitor, walked the halls of Chaldea. There was little physically unique about her, brown hair, brown eyes, an average chest. But she held herself as a leader, a ruler, a posture that could only be compared to the presence of Ozymandias, perhaps even Gilgamesh.

And she had the pure magical power that in a relaxed state, she was comparable to a mid-rank servant, though she clearly wasn’t a servant, only human, only a magus.

“Hark.” And yet she spoke with a commanding tone, her voice being carried across Chaldea... “It has been decided that you are no longer trustworthy, that you are naught but children who cannot be left alone, far too wild of cards to be trusted. So, a new order is to be established. 

Death is only the extremity. Punishments are likely. Complaints are to be written down and tossed into the incinerator to save time. Listen and obey and nothing will change. Rebel and be troublesome... And your pays will be ducked. Your internet will be taken. Your privileges will be reduced. Your budget will be cut. You are all responsible. Cause trouble and you may find your kitchen too low on food, or your master too poor to support everyone, your internet too slow to be used effectively.”

She stopped, she waited. “You are servants, heroes of the past, villains of the past even, if not mythology. I know you can find me. If you want to be the first to cause trouble and invoke punishment, then do it, I do not care for your opinions as long as you are troublesome. This has been an announcement by the Vice-Director of the Magus Association, Barthomeloi Lorelei.”

“I look forward to your obedience.”

[fandomriderx-1]

Fate has: 

Kayneth El-Melloi Archibald, 

His student and postmortem usurper, Waver Velvet, the Lord El-Melloi II,

His fiancé, Sola-Ui Nuada-Re Sophia-Ri

His niece, Reines El-Melloi Archisorte

Unrelated characters:

Darnic Prestone Yggdmillennia 

Inorai Valualeta Atroholm

Lev Lainur Flauros

Melvin Weins

Nigel Saward

Svin Glascheit

Bazett Fraga McRemitz

Greyon Ashborn

Kischur Zelretch Schweinorg

Barthomeloi Lorelei

Anime is great. Anime will be like “this is my character of ambiguous western descent. Their name is the most incomprehensible combination of made up sounds. And if not that, it is a name that has not appeared on a single birth certificate since 1773.

Code Geass went and said “most of these character hail from Future Sort-of-Britain, including our main character, who will be named Lelouch just like every single British person isn’t.” Then they decided to distract you from this by naming his love interest Shirley, cornering the market of 80+ year old grandmothers clutching their 3 bowls of strawberry sucker candy in delight. Code Geass didn’t even call it a day here they had one more trick up their sleeve and it was to name the third character in the group Rivalz, a name and a character which appeal to exactly no one.

Tiger and Bunny said “What should our western young-20′s heartthrob successful pretty-boy deuteragonist be named? What screams ‘young’ and ‘trendy’ and ‘brilliant’ and ‘sexy’? Barnaby. Barnaby Brooks. This is our Sex Symbol Barnaby.” I bet a bunch of ghosts from the 17th century were stoked about that one. I bet Barnaby walks into gift shops asking if they have any of the travel keychains in his name and he gets laughed out of the store. I bet Barnaby’s parents didn’t die, they just faked their deaths to get away from him seeing as they hated him enough to name him Barnaby.

I haven’t followed Attack on Titan in 7 years but yall have a character named Pieck Finger. That’s it that’s my roast.

[magiofdefloration]

Also I lied You want the full muse consideration list, including those I am uncertain if I can pull off?

Merem Solomon Ereshkigal Lancer Arturia EMIYArcher Arcueid Meltlilith MiyuVerse!Sakura (Berserker Card) Nightingale Zelretch Barthomeloi Lorelei Mordred Chloe Enkidu Hakuno Saber Alter Mitsuru Kokuto Mikiya Abigail Hokusai Roa Justeaze Lizrich von Einzbern Leysritt

But most of them are so sitational or there are just people who do them better that I don’t do much about them

[time-in-red]

I keep seeing the last name Bartholomew, especially in the context of the head of a school, and wanting to say "Barthomeloi". I go to wizard school since when?

[kaibutsushidousha]

Who is Yumina?

The First Magician. Mahoyo's Kuonji Alice's ancestor. All we know is that:

She's a witch.

She was born in the same day as Jesus.

Her direct successors are called Meinster.

She used the same magecraft Alice uses in Mahoyo.

She founded the Clock Tower's Botany Department when she was on her 500s.

She's the only mage Barthomeloi Lorelei respects.

Any mage worth their salt knows who Yumina is.

Those are only the concrete facts of course. With we want to get into speculation territory, it's very likely she's the one created the world's current ether, and mildly likely Calhin is her ghost.

[lorddeathofmurdermountain]

Harry Potter

Ron Weasley

Hermione Granger (actually kinda nice but I might be biased)

Versus

Lord Kayneth El Melloi

Sola-Ui Nuada-Re Sophia-Ri (above man's wife [kek])

(etc.)

The above three are protagonists. These two are side characters / antagonists

Or how about this.

Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore (aka Albus "too many damn names" Dumblydoor)

Versus

Kischur Zelretch Schweinorg

(or Lorelei Barthomeloi, or Olga Marie Animusphere, talking about "Directors" and "Headmasters", but of course we all know Zelretch is literally Dumbledore but Fate... Well, also Dumbledore but raving mad, a vampire, and willing to probably ditch people in another dimension just as a "silly prank")

And my final example. Even someone with a normal ass name is way cooler (both as a character and just the name). Waver Velvet? Dude went from snotty pushover to one of the most notorious mages in the Clock Tower. His best buddy? Literally Alexander the Great. And once again he's mostly a side character, he was a protagonist in Fate / Zero and in the Case Files but that's it iirc.

Well I am also biased as hell since I'm quite bitter towards the HP series, but eh. So while I am ranting a whole lot and acting like I soaked up all the knowledge of the world, anyone please feel free to ignore me. I might as well be a raving lunatic myself.

the virgin harry potter wizard names vs the chad nasuverse magus names

[reignsan]

Known Lords of the Clock Tower

McDonell Trambellio Elrod

Lord of Mystile, the Department of General Fundamentals. Head of the Trambellio family, one of the Three Great Families of the Mage’s Association. Head of the Democratic faction, which wants to see the Clock Tower be restructured into a system where talent supersedes lineage.

Rulfurus Nuada-Re Eulyphis

Lord of Eulyphis, the Department of Spiritual Evocation. Head of the Eulyphis family and father of Sola-Ui from Fate/Zero. Kayneth El-Melloi Archibald’s teacher. Part of the Aristocratic faction.

Kayneth El-Melloi Archibald

Former Lord of Kischur, the Department of Mineralogy. After his death it was taken over by the Meluastea family. Former head of the El-Melloi family and part of the Aristocratic faction. Also a lecturer for the Spiritual Evocation department. During his time as a student he showed off genius level talent; he was expected to form the greatest faction in the Clock Tower.

Marisbury Animusphere

Lord of Animusphere, the Department of Astromancy. Head of the Animusphere family and member of the Aristocratic faction. Passed over his daughter Olga Marie as his heir in favor of his student Kirschtaria Wodime. In the Grand Order timeline, won the 2004 Holy Grail War with Caster Solomon. In the Stay Night timeline, scrapped his plans to enter the Grail War upon learning the Grail was corrupted by Angra Mainyu.

Inorai Valueleta Atroholm

Lord of Valuay, the Department of Creation. Head of the Valueleta family, one of the Three Great Families, and a leader of the Democratic faction. The teacher of Touko Aozaki, Souren Araya, and Cornelius Alba from Kara no Kyoukai. Unlike most mages she embraces modern technology, including listening to rock music on her iPod.

Waver Velvet

Lord of Norwich, the Department of Modern Magecraft. Proxy head of the El-Melloi family under Reines El-Melloi Archisorte, and part of the Aristocratic faction due to the El-Melloi’s ties, though the Democratic faction wants him to join them as a “proof of concept.” His skill in magecraft is extremely poor, but his knowledge is second to none. All of his students reach high ranks in the Mage’s Association, bar none.

Barthomeloi Lorelei

Lord of the Department of Policies. Head of the Barthomeloi family, the most powerful of the Three Great Families. Head of the Aristocratic faction, which preaches family lineage as the most important thing to a mage. Second only to the Director in the Mage’s Association’s hierarchy. One of, if not the, greatest mages in the modern world.

Lords yet to be seen:

Solonea, Department of Individual Fundamentals: Lord ???

Chimera, Department of Zoology: Lord Gaiuslink

Brishisan, Department of Lore: Lord Brishisan

Yumina, Department of Botany: Lord Archelot

Jigmarie, Department of Curses: Lord ???

Astaire, Department of Archaeology: Lord Meluastea (also pulls double duty as Lord of Mineralogy after Kayneth’s death)