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thewertsearch · 4 months ago

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@relaxxattack asked: hi, maxx the troll romance guy again. ₊ ⊹ ☆ it’s finally my moment for me to bust out my big quadrant talk! as in, i had the time to sit down and write this. (and apologies in advance for subjecting you to this much nerdiness. hopefully, it’s at least somewhat illuminating, to make up for that). i’m not sure what your current opinions on troll romance are, but i wanted to discuss the idea that kismesissitude is inherently unhealthy / impossible to achieve by teenaged trolls. lots of people who read homestuck get very stuck on the idea that kismesissitude is a feeling of hatred. they run with their human assumptions of this word, imagining that a kismesissitude is an angry, horrible relationship of abuse and hurt. but, if you’ll bear with me, it’s actually shown throughout the comic that this is completely untrue. trolls do not use the word hate the same way that we do. in fact, this is pretty obvious, because they also continuously use the word “pity” in a completely different way than we do. each of these are actually more related to a completely different word: LOVE.

you can see, in this initial conversation surrounding quadrants, that trolls consider hate and pity to actually come from the same exact place (though they consider that a negative thing). you can also see in that conversation that you need a good mix of both for any of the quadrants to work. karkat calls vriska out on supposedly “hating people too much” in a way that would “make her a bad kismesis”. this tells us almost immediately off the bat that A. even other trolls consider vriska and tavros’s relationship unbalanced and unhealthy! and B. each quadrant needs a proper mix of emotions for a proper relationship. a lot of people assume that kismeses are “supposed” to kill each other, mainly because of the fate of jack noir and the queen. this, too, is a misunderstanding. jack noir and the queen, like mom and dad who they are explicitly paralleling, are meant to be regarded as tragic. both couples end in tragedy, as expected for almost every “parental figure” in homestuck; this is unrelated to their kismesissitude.

in fact, in this conversation eridan has with kanaya, it is stated that a kismesissitude that ends in deaths is an extremely rare, powerfully tragic romance that happens “once in ten thousand years”– and immediately after, it is stated that a kismesissitude that might become like this needs an auspistice. that’s right, trolls are so committed to healthy kismesissitudes that they have an entire system in place to stop them from becoming toxic. the vriska/kanaya/tavros auspisticism, while a failure on every conceivable level, was born out of the necessity that the other trolls considered vriska’s torment of tavros unhealthy. even among her fellow trolls, in a society that explicitly encouraged casteiesm and ableism, vriska’s treatment of tavros was still considered too toxic for a proper kismesissitude.

vriska and eridan, who were in a kismesissitude before vriska became bored of eridan, were allies in their roleplaying games. much like the ancestors they were emulating, (who even supposedly “cherished” their own black relationship!); they explicitly traded and shared their rewards and goods with each other because of their romantic relationship with each other, and were said to work together in flarp well enough to be feared by others. of course, they also competed with each other to be the best– because they are rivals– but rivalry does not constitute toxticity. they called each other “allies” and “competitors”. not enemies. though perhaps being enemies would be an interesting kismesis slowburn; in the end, two kismesis should not kill each other. they are on the same team. how could they not be, when trolls believe in one troll who is literally destined to be their perfect rival, a life partner who they must have a long-term relationship with in order to properly meet the alternian drone rules? killing each other makes no feasible sense.

as vriska and eridan talk about here, a rivalry between trolls is something fun for both of them. that is why they must hate each other “equally”-- they need to feel on equal footing, so that they can both have fun. that’s what a rivalry is for trolls. it’s fun! (fun fact: another definition of the word "rival" is "an equal"). (eridan’s pitch solicitation towards sollux is absolutely laughable in comparison. he throws meaningless, casteist insults, and sollux does not give a single fuck about him. as other trolls mention; this is very obviously fake. they are clearly not feeling anything mutual or respectful for each other. he merely is trying to goad feferi into an ashen retaliation with his shitty pitch advances, and it’s not even working.) and that brings me finally to john and karkat. i remember seeing confusion on this blog about the nature of karkat’s feelings– 'why is he helping john? doesn’t he ‘hate’ him? he must not REALLY feel pitch romance for him, and he’s just confused.' well you see, that’s the thing. the reason karkat’s first message to john was a love poem is because that is what kismesissitude is. it was karkat’s way of saying; “you’re special to me. i would like to bug you to see if you feel the same way.” it’s not as if strangely romantic healthy rivalries between teenagers are even an unheard of or new concept. they’re fairly common in television shows and anime; hell there’s even multiple tvtropes pages for them! it’s not impossible that two people in a story could have a healthy rivalry fun enough that they both end up missing it should it be gone. (looking at you, perry and doof.) it’s even more likely that teenagers, as vibrant and strange as their many emotions can be, could pull this off. of course, they make lots of mistakes. they’re young teenagers raised on the murder ableism planet. of course most of the shit they try to do is unhealthy. they make just as many earth-like mistakes with their hearts as they do with their spades. that doesn’t mean it’s impossible for them, or bad for them to try. especially since pairs like vriska and eridan seem to have even pulled it off! basically, what i’m saying is, they’re like sasuke and naruto (reference). let teenagers have hatecrushes! it’s cuter than you think! :P [if it isn’t obvious, this is all super lighthearted and silly. unfortunately it’s my brand to be the guy who’s REALLY passionate about troll romance. i sincerely hope this wasn’t too hard to read, and i’m really sorry about submitting such a long thing, but i couldn’t manage to cut it down any further 😭 have a great rest of your night/day!]

(Images added by me - partially for illustrative purposes, and partially because Tumblr tends to complain when a single block-quote is that large.)

Love love love this detailed breakdown. It outlines a blackrom framework which is a lot more nuanced than the infodump's original description of kismesissitude. There's a lot of really interesting stuff here, and I've actually been working on this response for the past week, while AFKing on my Minecraft server.

As you can imagine, I agree with many of the points raised here, and disagree with others. I think the best approach is to go through the essay point-by-point, and break down my thoughts.

lots of people who read homestuck get very stuck on the idea that kismesissitude is a feeling of hatred[...], imagining that a kismesissitude is an angry, horrible relationship of abuse and hurt. [...] it’s actually shown throughout the comic that this is completely untrue. trolls do not use the word hate the same way that we do. [...]

This one I just fully agree with. The Alternian concept of 'hate' isn't equivalent to ours, and they'll often use it in ways that are completely incompatible with our definition.

When Karkat 'fell in hate' with John, his actual antagonism was very obviously performative. As you mentioned above, several parts of his original rant wouldn't look out of place in a love confession.

Karkat doesn't just message John out of temporal obligation. There's a clear sense, even in their early conversations, that he's enjoying their interactions on some level. If his feelings here really are black romance - and there's no textual evidence that they're not - then this alone is enough to prove kismesissitude isn't true human hatred.

The trolls also use 'hate' in the human sense, too, which muddies the waters a little. It's even highlighted as a problem in-comic, with trolls having to disambiguate their hatred in conversation in much the same way humans disambiguate between platonic and romantic love.

they also continuously use the word “pity” in a completely different way than we do. each of these are actually more related to a completely different word: LOVE. you can see, in this initial conversation surrounding quadrants, that trolls consider hate and pity to actually come from the same exact place (though they consider that a negative thing).

As for pity, I'm still not entirely sure what it means to trolls. Unlike hate, it's only been brought up once, by Karkat.

His 'hate and pity' dichotomy isn't referenced anywhere else in the comic, and it's unclear whether he's describing an accepted fact of life, a sociological theory, or a trope from his beloved romcoms. I don't really have enough data to speculate.

you can also see in that conversation that you need a good mix of both for any of the quadrants to work. karkat calls vriska out on supposedly “hating people too much” in a way that would “make her a bad kismesis”. this tells us almost immediately off the bat that [...] each quadrant needs a proper mix of emotions for a proper relationship.

I believe your assertion here is that each quadrant requires both hate and pity. While definitely an interesting theory, I wasn't able to find canonical evidence that a healthy redrom requires hatred, or that a healthy blackrom requires pity.

I meant what I said, though - it is a compelling theory. If we do read troll 'hatred' as a type of friendly rivalry, then maybe it is important in redrom, serving as the 'spark' that keeps things fresh. Furthermore, if we read 'pity' as something bordering on affection, then it probably is necessary for a healthy blackrom.

I really like the space you're playing in, here. There is something to this idea, and I'd love for Karkat to elaborate on it.

[...] even other trolls consider vriska and tavros’s relationship unbalanced and unhealthy!

Text it! If the full Vriska/Tavros mess was public knowledge, basically everyone would consider Vriska's behavior beyond atrocious, blackrom or no blackrom. I'm not even sure if Eridan would be OK with it - and Gamzee, of course, is currently excluded from this discussion.

If the Veil's trolls are a representative sample of Alternian culture, then Vriska's 'blackrom' with Tavros is just as abusive there as it would have been on Earth. Even Alternia has limits.

a lot of people assume that kismeses are “supposed” to kill each other, mainly because of the fate of jack noir and the queen. this, too, is a misunderstanding. jack noir and the queen, like mom and dad who they are explicitly paralleling, are meant to be regarded as tragic. both couples end in tragedy, as expected for almost every “parental figure” in homestuck; this is unrelated to their kismesissitude. in fact, in this conversation eridan has with kanaya, it is stated that a kismesissitude that ends in deaths is an extremely rare, powerfully tragic romance that happens “once in ten thousand years”

This tracks, as well. If blackrom was allowed to end with murder, then there'd be a lot less soldiers being ferried off the planet every year. Alternian children are a resource to the Empire, and more murder-couples means less murder-platoons.

Vriska does think it would be acceptable for her to murder Tavros, but she frames it as a consequence of classism, not blackrom. This would be much more acceptable to the Empire, as a blueblood like Vriska is destined to be a high-ranking officer. She's not killing a partner, here - she's punishing insubordination.

– and immediately after, it is stated that a kismesissitude that might become like this needs an auspistice. that’s right, trolls are so committed to healthy kismesissitudes that they have an entire system in place to stop them from becoming toxic. the vriska/kanaya/tavros auspisticism, while a failure on every conceivable level, was born out of the necessity that the other trolls considered vriska’s torment of tavros unhealthy. even among her fellow trolls, in a society that explicitly encouraged casteiesm and ableism, vriska’s treatment of tavros was still considered too toxic for a proper kismesissitude.

I won't second-guess the utility of auspisticism in situations like this. It makes perfect sense that the role exists, and it certainly does an important job.

However, once again, I really don't understand the monogamy aspect. Helping a loved one escape a toxic or abusive relationship should not be a one-person job, and enforcing that requirement serves to sabotage what could have been a much more effective social role.

Like - imagine that, upon becoming VrisTav's auspistice, Kanaya's first action was to call for backup. If she was allowed to introduce additional auspistices to the situation, such as Aradia or Terezi, then Vriska wouldn't have been able to continue tormenting Tavros as soon as Kanaya turned her back. It takes a village, guys!

vriska and eridan, who were in a kismesissitude before vriska became bored of eridan, were allies in their roleplaying games. much like the ancestors they were emulating, (who even supposedly “cherished” their own black relationship!); they explicitly traded and shared their rewards and goods with each other because of their romantic relationship with each other, and were said to work together in flarp well enough to be feared by others. of course, they also competed with each other to be the best– because they are rivals– but rivalry does not constitute toxticity. they called each other “allies” and “competitors”. not enemies. [...] as vriska and eridan talk about here, a rivalry between trolls is something fun for both of them. that is why they must hate each other “equally”-- they need to feel on equal footing, so that they can both have fun. that’s what a rivalry is for trolls. it’s fun!

Eridan/Vriska is a relationship I wish we'd seen on-panel, because this one is really hard to picture. Eridan's personality doesn't feel at all compatible with Vriska's, and I don't understand what she saw in him.

Vriska is one of the smartest, most resourceful, most dangerous trolls around, and there was apparently a time she thought of Eridan as a rival. As an equal. All he really has to offer is an overpowered weapon, and Vriska's already got one of those.

Sure, she got bored later, but unless Eridan has some extremely hidden depths, she should have been bored from day one. How did their rivalry even work?

I think the problem here is that we haven't seen any non-toxic kismesissitudes. Vriska/Tavros is a nightmare, Equius/Aradia was mind control, Eridan/Vriska happened offscreen, and John/Karkat never happened at all. It's difficult to extrapolate what a non-awful kismesissitude might look like, when we've only seen the worst the quadrant has to offer. Actually seeing Vriska's spades with Eridan, instead of having it described second-hand, might help to clear this up, but that seems fairly unlikely at this point.

This, at least, is a problem that might solve itself. We've still got a lot of comic to go, and the passion its fandom has for the quadrants makes it clear that they're not going anywhere. I don't think I'll be able to pass my final judgement on kismesissitude until we've seen one that actually works. I really like the idea of a romance centered around friendly rivalry - I just wish the comic would show me one!

and that brings me finally to john and karkat. i remember seeing confusion on this blog about the nature of karkat’s feelings– 'why is he helping john? doesn’t he ‘hate’ him? he must not REALLY feel pitch romance for him, and he’s just confused.' well you see, that’s the thing. the reason karkat’s first message to john was a love poem is because that is what kismesissitude is. it was karkat’s way of saying; “you’re special to me. i would like to bug you to see if you feel the same way.” it’s not as if strangely romantic healthy rivalries between teenagers are even an unheard of or new concept. they’re fairly common in television shows and anime; hell there’s even multiple tvtropes pages for them! it’s not impossible that two people in a story could have a healthy rivalry fun enough that they both end up missing it should it be gone. (looking at you, perry and doof.)

Like, this sounds cool! You're describing a really fun version of kismesissitude, here - one which brings to mind Wright and Edgeworth, Sonic and Shadow, and a dozen other popular couples.

This interpretation would be less dangerous for teenagers - it certainly worked for Lumity - and again, I just hope we eventually see something like this on-panel!

#homestuck liveblog #full liveblog #act 5.2 #asks

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the-muppet-joker · 4 months ago

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Croaker is your other selfcest polycule Eve Adam and Vriska

Yes. But it is far more complicated than that.

You see, I have only discovered my Eve kin identity recently. Before that, I only felt the misplaced resentment from Adam towards Eve for him losing his rib for her creation. Now that Vriska has made me Bigender, I was able to unlock Eve from her prison within my subconcious and realize, as Adam, that he should have been hating God, not Eve as well as womenkind. Eve did not ask to be ripped out of Adam any more than Adam asked to be mutilated by God. But I digress. Reading homestuck has helped me process my feelings about religion and gender in a way therapy never could. It also helped me understand the unique relationship that Adam, Eve, and Vriska have within my twisted mind. Are you familiar with the quadrant system? If you are not, read all of homestuck before proceeding with the rest of this post. Basically, Vriska acts as the Auspistice for Adam and Eve, managing their previous resentment for one another and ensuring their rivalry does not spiral out of control. There is also an element of vacillation to this relationship. Adam and Eve are now sometimes able to challenge each other as respectful and erotic rivals, ocasionally shifting to a healthy kismesis relationship without Vriska's mediation. During this time, Vriska and Eve are matesprits, showing each other the beautiful love and appreciation that neither of them fully received in their source materials. Two women in love against all odds? A bold act of Dark Feminism. Additionally, Vriska and Adam will vacillate into wholesome moirails during this time. They talk each other out of their previous toxic behaviors, have fun, and are willing to express a more vulnerable side of themselves around one another. It is a complicated, but overall healthy and trusting dynamic between the three of them. And by the three of them, I mean just me as they are my three kin identities and live in my mind.

#Adam and Eve and Vriska

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triptychgardener · 16 days ago

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Oh also am I being a tad reductive when talking about the quadrants? Yeah absolutely. But I do think it's important to see what the comic actually says and demonstrates about relationships within these frameworks, rather than trying to find like. Some platonic ideal of a "TRUE" romance, or trying to figure out how the quadrants are actually *supposed* to work.

Like. We're supposed to take Meowrails as the platonic (no pun intended) ideal of a moiraillegience. They are quite literally used as The Symbol for it in comic (their typing quirks forming the <>).

And when we see their initial relationship online, it is... not great to say the least!

Equius is domineering and dismissive of Nepeta's agency, and is very explicitly *keeping her away from her friends* in this game, and keeping her with him, ostensibly for protection, a thing he does an awful lot despite Nepeta clearly being very capable (see him keeping Nepeta from FLARPing with the other teams. Even if that, in universe, may have been a good idea.)

And even though we do see softer moments between the two of them, and their relationships seems to have improved by the time we reach [S] Equius: Seek the highb100d, this is one of our FIRST demonstrations of a pair of moirails in the comic, designed to be indicative on the concept. In our other examples, Vriska seems barely cognizant of the idea that she's even IN a relationship with Kanaya to begin with, and it falls apart due to the boundaries between pale and red romance (boundaries that, like the human boundary between "friend" and "lover," are artificially constructed); Karkat and Gamzee failed so horribly that Karkat gives up, and it fails to prevent Gamzee from enacting more violence on Terezi; Feferi finds it utterly exhausting to constantly be preventing Eridan from committing violence, and rightfully breaks it off with him; and finally, Terezi is unable to prevent Vriska from inflicting a final and great violence upon herself at the end of the comic, especially when she wants clearly to be Vriska's everything.

For kismessitude, I keep seeing people groping around in the dark for what a True, Healthy Kismessitude is, and I really hope I don't have to tell you that you shouldn't build a relationship off of mutual hate. Our key example given for black romance is, well.

A relationship that literally always ends up with one member murdering the other. In both universes.

Also notable is that we almost never see a kismessitude where there *isn't* some significant power imbalance between the two parties. The Black Queen is Jack Noir's boss, Equius literally designs Aradiabot to be utterly subservient to him, and Gamzee specifically uses Terezi's disability and insecurity to trap her into a relationship with him.

A healthy rivalry or making fun jabs at each other is one thing. But a system is what it does, and kismessistude consistently produces abuse and often fatal violence between two people. The only one that ends without that violence is Eridan and Vriska. And that was just because Vriska didn't really care anymore.

Auspisticism is pretty rare in the comic, and even most of the characters don't seem to have a very strong grasp on the subject. Our example is... Kanaya auspisticizing between Vriska and Tavros.

Which mostly just feels like Kanaya is trying to stop Vriska from picking on Tavros, not facilitating a relationship.

Kanaya is kind of our Key Person here though, being described as "the vvillage twwo wwheel devvice" by Eridan when he is trying to proposition her to auspisticize between him and Vriska. It's a mediative position, that seems to mostly be used in attempts by Eridan to make women talk to him (getting Kanaya to mediate between him and Vriska, trying to get Feferi to mediate him and Sollux, both times unsuccessful because, again, they don't care.) It also exhausts Kanaya, she doesn't like it, and she's not very good at it, if there even is a good state to be in for auspisticizing, as anyone who's had to deal with polycule drama knows.

Ultimately, it's a way to offload the emotional baggage of a toxic relationship, either extant or imminent, onto a third party (always a woman for some reason! Funny that) because Alternian relationship structures seem designed to encourage violence and aggression for the purposes of imperialist expansion.

The REAL point where it matters is when Rose starts to get into Auspisticism, and we start to see when it can really go wrong.

During Game Over, while Gamzee is ACTIVELY BRUTALIZING TEREZI, Rose, who has been talking to both parties and trying to auspisticize, freezes.

Trying to understand this framework as an extant thing is actively causing her to undergo analysis paralysis. She sees, obviously, brutal violence being inflicted on her friend, but because she has positioned herself as the mediator of an obviously abusive relationship, the maintenance of this relationship is suddenly a priority in trying to navigate it. Her fear of getting in the way of what could be a "normal" relationship loses her precious seconds that may have ended up costing lives.

This sort of thing happens all the time. When you see a relationship as an object and a structure whose preservation is worth striving for, even when there is nothing to be gained by maintaining that relationship, it can leave you trapped in abusive and toxic scenarios. On Earth, the preservation of marriages beyond the point where one or both members of the contract get anything positive from it causes devastating unhappiness, inequality and abuse. The preservation of these structures has a purpose.

In America, as well as many other countries on Earth, the purpose of the institution of marriage is largely to put reproductive and financial power in the hands of men, and to construct the nuclear family along the lines which maintain structures like Christianity, capitalism and patriarchy. That has just historically been the case. Does that mean that no one should get married, or that no one can be happy in a marriage? Of course not. But people didn't fight for things like gay marriage, and are still fighting for marriage equality for disabled people and other groups, just for the sake of being "normal." They did it for a lot of reasons. Hospital visitation rights, the ability to have some say in what happens to their partners after death, insurance sharing.

But as the institution of marriage is expanding to include more people, we should really start questioning why these sorts of things are locked behind a contract that also assumes A Lot Of Things about two people that may not necessarily be true, i.e. a desire to live together, have sex, reproduce, share financial interests etc, when a more holistic approach to relationships where they aren't simply All or Nothing is going to make a lot of people a lot happier.

There's a couple of specific phrases in wider Homestuck Fanon that always bothered me. Those being that a relationship "is beyond or transcends quadrants" and that someone wants another person "in all four quadrants." Partially because it always seemed to just describe two people who really really love each other a lot, semantically similar to us calling something True Love but I digress. Like, in an ideal world, most relationships would transcend quadrants! Individual aspects of each type of relationship that are usually cordoned off should be available for you to pick and choose. The lines between a friend and a rival and a lover should be obliterated, but it's said instead to indicate when someone is No For Real In Love, when usually it's just two people who are human dating. There's a good swathe of people who seem to think that all the quadrants are bad EXCEPT for red which is the Normal Human Way Of Being In Love and is therefore good. I mean, this is kind of the whole thing the Candy timeline is based around, right? Everyone cordoning themselves off into neat little marriages, having babies and living in suburban houses with white picket fences.

And we all know how well that's going.

#long post #flashing lights #whooo this was a doozy.#anyways i think john and roxy getting a divorce and still being pretty amicable and. okay? ish to a degree #is indicative

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caligvlasaqvarivm · 5 months ago

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Is Eridan’s fake attempt for land dweller genocide just a manifestation of his guilt of orphaning all those trolls? He says he wants to kill them all so they will no longer have to deal the loss of losing their parent to some finned hipster asshole?

So Eridan's life pre-SGRUB is primarily concerned with one thing: it is his Duty as a violet-blood who is close to the Heiress to feed her lusus so that it doesn't throw a tantrum and Kill Everybody. It's a manifestation not of guilt, but of anxiety.

He describes the murder he commits in pursuit of this as "all i evver done practically," and we never see him participate in a hobby he enjoys - we learn he's a hipster because Karkat calls him one, he FLARPs to fill Gl'bgolyb's belly, and people have fought with me before, but I maintain that his "interest" in military history is also just a part of his posturing/something he reads like somebody would doomscroll, as it validates his anxiety, because he only ever talks about history twice, in the vaguest possible terms, and the first time, it's just part of him posturing at Kanaya, and the second time, he's literally just. Wrong? He's just incorrect?

CA: yeah go ahead and kiss us off but therell be blood on your hands CA: you could either play along as our auspistice and do a little mediating like you wwere fuckin hatched to CA: or wwatch she and me devvolvve into fuckin full fledged kismesisses the kind like you dont get once in ten thousand swweeps CA: you knoww thats wwhat it wwould be there wwould be rainboww rivvers runnin through star systems and all nebulizin like liquid firewworks CA: it wwill be beautiful and heartbreaking all at once CA: you should read up on your history instead of poring through that godawwfull sunny rubbish

CC: None of your plots to kill t)(e land dwellers ever work out, and every doomsday device you get your )(ands on turns out to be a piece of junk! CA: so CA: i got to keep tryin thats howw all the great military masterminds became great through upright persevverance

Like I just. Don't believe him when he says he's obsessed with military history when he doesn't seem to be able to name five specific battles, and thinks the main attribute a military leader needs to succeed is "persevverance". We know that Karkat's interest in romance is real because he brings it up more than twice and also starts infodumping about it to Vriska at one point, but Eridan only seems to mention it because he thinks he's supposed to care about it.

Which is pretty much, like, one of the biggest tensions in his character: how he feels he's supposed to act vs. how he actually feels about acting that way. He faces multiple pressures to be a certain person, which run counter to his actual feelings.

He has to be a murderer, because if he isn't one, then Gl'bgolyb will do a genocide on his entire species.

He has to be an unrepentant murderer, because they live in a horrible fascist murder-society where highbloods are supposed to kill lowbloods all the time for literally any reason.

He has to be the one getting his hands bloody because his ancestor, Dualscar, was also the Orphaner, and (especially highblood) trolls need to take up their ancestors' mantles.

He has to be rude and condescending to everybody else because that's how highbloods, and especially sea dwellers, have to act.

He cannot express compassion, sympathy, or pity, because sea dwellers and highbloods aren't supposed to act that way.

Magic has to be fake, because it's for shitty wigglers, and Eridan's not a wiggler anymore!

He has to be in a torrid pitch relationship because that was the most defining one Dualscar had, and he needs to complete Dualscar's unfinished business.

He has to be in a flushed relationship because Dualscar had an unrequited flushcrush on the empress, and he needs to complete Dualscar's unfinished business.

He has to hate the lowbloods because he's a highblood.

He has to hate the land dwellers because he's a sea dweller.

But wait! That's weird. He has to hate the land dwellers and lowbloods, but he's the one responsible for making sure they don't all die by keeping Gl'bgolyb full?

In truth, it would be all too easy to solve the land dweller problem once and for all. You'd just need to lighten up on the feeding schedule for a while. Maybe you'd be a little too busy to bother with that hassle for once? Or maybe you could happen to be off your game for a spell? It happens, even to the best sometimes. But nah. It would make her upset. More emotions. More problems. That's all you need.

And he has to be an unrepentant murderer even though he clearly feels more guilt for it than Feferi?

That should keep her happy for a while. And make a freshly orphaned troll somewhere pretty sad.

And you claim magic is fake idiot stuff for babies but you like it SOOOO much?

You also like MAGIC, even though you know it to be FAKE. Like a made up friend, the way wizards are. Made up make believe FAKEY FAKEY FAKES. It's still fun though.

So we can see that Eridan is basically being pulled two ways at all times.

On one hand, there's everything society says he needs to be: an unrepentant murderer, a military dictator, ruthless bloodthirsty sea-dwelling aristocracy, hater of all low bloods and land dwellers, Orphaner Dualscar's heir.

And on the other hand, there's the guy Eridan actually is: doesn't give a shit about the hemocaste, just wants friends and/or relationship partners, likes magic, like hipster stuff, kind of a tool, guilty and traumatized.

It doesn't help that the people he's surrounded by are the least likely to recognize his distress as distress - Feferi loooooves being a princess, Kanaya has never really voiced any strong opinions on the hemocaste because it largely doesn't concern her since she's a rare jade blood, and Vriska is doing a lot better than Eridan is at fitting the mold they were born into (not that she doesn't have problems, she's just doing better than Eridan, which is a low fucking bar). Even Karkat, because of his own hangups about being a mutant pariah, venerates the society he was born into, because he (wrongly) sees it as a means to gain validation so he can hate himself less. As a result, Eridan winds up with basically 0 support system, because pretty much every aspect of his life reinforces that the thing society says he should be is correct, and that there's something wrong with Eridan for being unable to meet that expectation.

Especially because, for at least all the "murderer" he's supposed to be, if he fails to meet that expectation, everybody dies. So it's not just that he's got a pushy lusus and a shitty society, like Vriska does, but that there's also the added weight that adhering to those expectations is literally, objectively, the correct thing to do, so long as he doesn't want literally everybody to die.

As a result, he's constantly trying to overcorrect his behavior and cognition to line up with what he thinks he's supposed to be. That's why he's constantly saying slurs even though he doesn't actually treat anybody differently for their caste. That's why he's constantly talking about murder and military history, even though he clearly doesn't enjoy doing either of those things. That's why he's always pushing this image of a big bad fascist wannabe, even though he actually wants to be a magic-slinging wizard.

The thing about genocide, for Eridan, is that he's already obsessed with genocide - the prevention of genocide. Keeping his species from being genocided is, without exaggeration, the most time-consuming pursuit in his life. BUT WAIT! He can't say, think, or believe that his actions are for the benefit of the land dwellers, because first of all, he feels kind of guilty about killing them, and second of all, because he's not allowed to express compassion to the people he's keeping safe. So between the stress, the cognitive dissonance, the anxiety, and the fact that Eridan doesn't really do a lot of introspection because he's so overwhelmed by emotion, his existing preoccupation with genocide is transmuted into something that's socially acceptable: "wanting all the land dwellers dead."

"[I]t would be all too easy." Indeed: if he ever slacks in his duties, they will all die. In fact, it's easier for him to let them die than to not. He clearly doesn't like doing all that killing, and it clearly makes him feel bad, and takes up a shitton of his time if nothing else, so it's probably occurred to him over, and over, and over, that maybe he should just... not! What if he just stopped.

Well, then everyone would die. Gl'bgolyb would raise her voice a little and it'd kill all the rust bloods, then the bronzes, the golds, the limes, the olives...

Wait! Is he feeling bad for them? He's not supposed to be feeling bad for the low bloods! Shit, shit, shit. Say a slur and then say something about how you WANT all the low bloods dead. PHEW. OKAY. SAFE. But that means you need to kill all the lowbloods. Because you said it, so it has to be true, and also, this is the way you're supposed to be. So, fuck, well, go commission a doomsday device. Okay, done. PHEW. It probably doesn't work, but nobody can say you didn't try! Hooray, you did it! You have performed a Sea Dweller Action! Oh it's time to go kill some people again. Damnit. Killing people sucks. It makes you feel bad, and it takes up so much of your time. What if you just didn't...

And we can see this with the way his lust for genocide is described. There's no mention of why he hates the land dwellers, no mention of how he believes society will improve with them gone, or even what they're doing that's so bad in the first place. He rambles at Feferi about "keeping the bloodlines pure" at one point, but this is clearly contradicted by him stating he wouldn't kill Kanaya, because what sort of friend would he be? (And the fact that he cares about Kanaya, Vriska, and the anon-blooded Karkat, who could be literally any blood color, at all!)

So yeah, like, the thing is, he doesn't want to kill them all. He even calls himself out for knowing his latest doomsday plot was a bust from the start:

You are almost starting not to care about this stupid doomsday device which probably won't even work. She probably KNOWS you know it won't work. She has probably put all the pieces together and knows it was an elaborate ruse to be in cahoots with her again.

And so does Feferi:

And here he is outright contradicting his stated goal of killing the land dwellers because, jegus, he'd never kill his friends:

CA: but somethin thatll kill all land dwwellers wwhat else wwould i be after GA: Can You Just For A Moment Entertain The Thoughts Of One Untouched By Megalomaniacal Derangement And Tell Me Why Id Want To Assist You With That CA: wwell CA: im not goin to vvery wwell kill you am i that wwould be fuckin unconscionable CA: wwhat kind of friend wwould i be

And a reminder that one of his closest friends at this point in time is Karkat, whose blood color is currently anonymous to his friend group, meaning he could be literally any blood color and Eridan wouldn't want him dead:

CC: You know, I'm not sure w)(y we never talk about our romantic aspirations. CC: We s)(ould more often. It is kind of -EXCITING! CA: shrug CC: Probably because you fill your gossip quota wit)( your nubby )(orned bro.

But Karkat also explicitly lumps himself in with the low bloods, so Eridan can't even use the excuse that Karkat might be nobility (but sea dwellers are still suppose to hate land dwelling nobility so that still wouldn't be a defense EVEN IF it was true):

CG: CHALK IT UP AS ANOTHER INFURIATING VICTORY FOR GUTTER BLOOD OVER ARISTOCRACY.

Because Eridan does not want to genocide the land dwellers. He's just anxious.

#eridan ampora #homestuck

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lime-bloods · 4 months ago

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i would LOVE a post on that. i have been thinking extensively about pitch romance and how deeply, cruelly toxic it is and how quadrants are in general. a lot of stuff is based in karkat's pov on it (and karkat is like. sooo biased love the guy to death but he is SO BIASED!!!) but sometimes it's in the narration and the existence of auspisticism & the fact that quadrants potentially existed on beforus trips me up as well...

this is a great question! and I suppose "the beginning" is probably the best place to start for a post about this, after all.

it's important to be aware that when we think of Beforus as a planet that is "good", this is not necessarily because it is wholly good by our own standards or even by the author's standards, but because it is good within Homestuck's philosophy, that the "good" is that which is "true" or "real", rather than what is "true" necessarily being good. to put this in another way - which I've only just recently begun to fully understand myself - Beforus being free of Lord English's corruption doesn't mean it's free of problems, just that it's problems are "real" problems, as opposed to fictional problems; they're reflective of problems we have on Earth.

pivotally, Beforus still has systems of gendered oppression, and in that sense it's clear how the intrinsically gendered violence of Alternia's quadrants would find their own place in Beforan society. it's just that in this context, these dynamics arise as part of complex sociological phenomena over thousands of years and aren't put in place solely for a specific purpose by an omnipotent time god, and as such won't necessarily manifest themselves in the exact same ways, or necessarily be "as bad". as with so many things in Homestuck, it's the idea at the core of the concept that's most important; kismesissitude and matespritship on Beforus should be recognisably the same idea as the quadrants on Alternia, just as they are recognisably the same "quadrants" practised by cherubs and humans, despite all of these arising from vastly different and largely disconnected cultural contexts.

the tendency for the same ideas to reliably bubble up to the surface again and again in different contexts is a central law of Homestuck's metaphysics: in the words of the reliable Doc Scratch, "there is essentially nothing new in paradox space." and it's relevant that Scratch is the one to relate this truism, because therein lies a crucial different in connotation between "storyteller" and "narrator"; it is not a narrator's job to invent new ideas, but rather to spin their own interpretation of what has already happened. this is why Scratch's ancestor stories are "troll fanfction"; he's writing an AU of characters who already lived on Beforus. we can only assume that, in the same vein, in "creating" Alternia's quadrants Scratch merely took those parts of Beforus that were convenient to his vision and amplified them to be all-important. (alchemy, as described by 9th century author Jabir ibn Hayyan, was the transmutation of one material into another by manipulating qualities that already existed within all matter, pushing some into the background and pulling others into the fore.)

it's easy to think of auspisticism, meanwhile, as unique among the quadrants in that it superficially seems to provide a service that is beneficial to all involved, and certainly towards Act 6 a lot of the children seem very interested in interpreting it this way. but in the narrative context in which it's introduced to us, I think it's clearly much more about control. as far as the ashen quadrant is concerned, what happens to the participants themselves is inconsequential; a successful ashen quadrant merely upholds the social idea of monogamy by stemming "widespread black infidelity." which is on its own a patently absurd idea: fidelity enforced by the race who practice punishable-by-death polygamy in order to mix all of their genes together in a single pool?! yes, it makes sense within the context of a nonsensically complicated alien reproductive process, but the nonsensical complicatedness of it all is entirely the point; the quadrants are designed to intersect in ways that not even the trolls themselves could ever fully understand. just as it's often impossible for a troll to distinguish between feelings that are platonic, pale or red, when Eridan attempts to "spark a rivalry wit)( [Sollux] to get [Feferi] to auspisticize [...] and pull us out of our quadrant" it's "t)(e oldest and lamest trick in t)(e book" precisely because it's the quadrant working exactly as intended! all of the quadrants serve to make relationships messier under the guise of making them more structured because messy relationships make for a great story, which is Alternia's fundamental purpose.

I think the Karkat point is worthy of another post deconstructing all the quadrants more broadly, because a lot of different things have been said about it already and it's worth getting into, but straightforwardly I think it must be understood that Karkat and "the narration" have fundamentally the same bias; the narrative wants us to take Alternia seriously because Alternia as a machine is a construction of the narrative for the purposes of the narrative, and Karkat wants us to take Alternia seriously because he's a massive stooge who has made his whole life's purpose out of buying into that narrative.

#homestuck #analysis #quadrants #romance #beforus #auspisticism #discussion

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dirkspanelcollection · 9 months ago

Text

Every page Eridan Ampora is in.

for your march Eridan editing needs.

+ all his (side of) pesterlogs (for fun)

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Pesterlog from page 2343

CA: kan make her talk to me do somethin

CA: your no good connivvin fuckin backstabbin girl crush thats wwho

CA: pshhhhhh that is a fuckin laugh and you knoww it evveryone does

CA: so help me out tell her to talk to me i think she blocked me you got to CA: wwhatEVVER you are so the vvillage twwo wwheel devvice wwhen it comes to auspisticing

CA: you cant let a grudge go by you wwont stick your busy stem betwwixt so get wwith the program fussyfangs

CA: wwho givves a shit wwhy she blocked me or about my fuckin manners come on youvve got a wway wwith her

CA: i figure if youre going to auspisticize any twwo brinesuckers wwho sneer at each other a funny wway you might as wwell make it official and be ours right

CA: she made me somethin per a prior arrangement

CA: she wwill delivver it wwhen wwe meet in this game but i dont knoww wwhat the logistics are yet

CA: im tryin to connoiter wwith her here but shes blowwin me off again fickle dirtscrapin landhag

CA: kan stupid wwhat do you think its a fuckin gizmo to bloww up the wworld or somethin

CA: ok wwell not that obvviously

CA: but somethin thatll kill all land dwwellers wwhat else wwould i be after

CA: wwell

CA: im not goin to vvery wwell kill you am i that wwould be fuckin unconscionable

CA: wwhat kind of friend wwould i be

CA: yeah go ahead and kiss us off but therell be blood on your hands

CA: you could either play along as our auspistice and do a little mediating like you wwere fuckin hatched to

CA: or wwatch she and me devvolvve into fuckin full fledged kismesisses the kind like you dont get once in ten thousand swweeps

CA: you knoww thats wwhat it wwould be there wwould be rainboww rivvers runnin through star systems and all nebulizin like liquid firewworks

CA: it wwill be beautiful and heartbreaking all at once

CA: you should read up on your history instead of poring through that godawwfull sunny rubbish

CA: yeah it does its important sorry but the fate of the race and purity of the bloodline is important excuse me for being concerned

CA: huh

CA: wwell ok

CA: ordinarily id call bullshit on terrible stinkin bs like that but i knoww you dont really lie about stuff

CA: unless its to yourself

CA: but thats wwhy i bother evven talking to you i wwouldnt evven be here SAYIN any of this otherwwise

CA: so did your clouds tell you that

CA: i got clouds and they dont tell me SHIT they hide nothin but misfortune and monstrosities

CA: fuckin pain in the ass fuckin clouds

CA: so howw do you knoww then

CA: ok wwell you are jacked tight the fuck into this thing in so many wways i dont knoww wwhat to say anymore

CA: wwhatevver wwe wwill just play and find out i guess

CA: so can you tell her to talk to me anywway

CA: god dammit

CA: she and me are teammates wwevve got to havve a powwwwoww or SOMETHING

CA: fuck

CA: fine i get it ill step off

CA: you dont wwant to be our auspistice cause you dont wwant to get locked into that sort of relation wwith her i can respect that

CA: yeah it is your real feelins run pretty awwful RUDDY methinks evverybody knowws it

CA: especially that assblood karkat he and me havve you so pegged about that its upright silly

CA: but its cool its totally fine dont wworry ill leavve you alone and givve you a shot

CA: wwhat

CA: wwhoa wwait wwho

CA: ok wwait did she talk to you today

CA: wwhat did she say

CA: or glub or wwhatevver

CA: WWWWHAT

CA: wwait

CA: did she actually say that

CA: in confidence

CA: can you copy exactly wwhat she said

CA: this is bullshit youre bee essing me in some wway awwful

CA: you dont lie but you do tease and ill tranfuse my kickass royal blood out wwith incontinent musclebeast discharge if i wwont knoww wwhen im gettin hooked

CA: awwww fuck

CA: see im tellin you

CA: you got to play your cards right CA: if youre not savvvvy about howw you define yourself to peopleCA: you can just splash into the moirail zone before you knoww wwhich wways upwwardCA: kan its hard

CA: being a kid and growwing up

CA: its hard and nobody understands

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Pesterlog from page 2446

CA: fef

CA: hey

CA: glub

CA: yeah

CA: hm

CA: wwhat

CA: nothins on my mind wwhy cant i just fuckin talk and glub at you for a reason i dont havve

CA: wwell fine but you dont wwant to hear it CA: uhuh wwhatevverCA: yeah wwell ok since wwe are the PALEST OF PALS A GUY COULD EVVER ASK FOR

CA: i wwill tell you

CA: evven though you wwill only humor me as usual since you dont agree wwith my agenda

CA: any of my agendas really

CA: none of the agendas

CA: none of them

CA: see

CA: more condescension

CA: you are goin to make a hell of an empress

CA: so

CA: i got to keep tryin thats howw all the great military masterminds became great through upright persevverance

CA: it isnt wwrong

CA: im not going to explain it to you again

CA: at this point all you need to knoww is its important to me

CA: and im doing it for us

CA: i mean our kind

CA: nobody understands not evven you

CA: pshh

CA: hemospectrum begs to differ

CA: wwhatevver

CA: i havve to keep an eye on em up here

CA: its all about tactics

CA: history is full of cases wwhere conquerers consort wwith members of the enemy in a mannerly wway before wwipin them out CA: evven goin as far as growwin fond a some

CA: its only civvilized

CA: all your feelins are fishy

CA: GLUBGLUBGLUBGLUBGLUBGLUB

CA: ill glub in wwhatevver dumbass bubbly soundin fishnoise i wwant to glub

CA: ok please lets just not get into the wwhole fuckin fish pun thing again ok

CA: like wwe get it wwe are nautically themed

CA: but yeah i dunno

CA: i dont knoww wwhy she ignores me i guess shes just bored wwith me

CA: wwe had it all set up for her to givve me this thing tonight that probably doesnt evven wwork but yeah maybe that wwasnt the point

CA: i mean you think wwe havve a pretty good rivvalry goin right

CA: or at least had

CA: it wwas pretty fuckin bitter and contentious for a wwhile there and there wwas some good chemistry i dont knoww wwhat happened

CA: it doesnt matter like i said shes bored shitless

CA: i guess im not as good a advversary as i thought

CA: ehhh

CA: wwell ok thanks for sayin so

CA: shrug

CA: maybe

CA: seems kinda

CA: odd though

CA: wwell those are my stupid feelins wwhat about yours

CA: seems to me like you get along too wwell wwith evverybody to be harborin any black sentiments

CA: yeah

CA: oh god

CA: uh

CA: ok fef

CA: this is NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS

CA: i gotta go

CA: be back later wwhen its time to play

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#dirkspanelcollection #homestuck panel #homestuck panels #homestuck #eridan ampora #feferi peixes

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felonsgenders · 2 years ago

Text

✦ quadrant based attraction - a revamp

the quadrant system is a model of attraction created by the webcomic homestuck. while someone has already broken down the quadrants into facets of attraction here, we figured we would take our own stab at it! (with permission from the original creator of course!) this is meant for anyone interested in the concept, although it helps to have prior knowledge! if you find this attraction model appealing, a wikipedia page exists that explains it well here, but we'll be going in depth ourselves under the cut!

and now for a more in depth explanation of quadrants and each facet of attraction! as you can see, there are four quadrants - matespritship or matespritian (heart), moirallegiance or moirallegian (diamond), kismesissitude or kismesian (spade), and auspisticism or auspistian (club).

they're divided into two groups: red romance fueled by love/positive feelings, and black romance fueled by negative feelings/hate. you can have multiple people in one quadrant, or only one, the concept of quadrants is polyamorous by default, but some choose to have only one moirail, kismesis etc. you can also have different sexualities for different quadrants! for example: you could be a gay man who is exclusively in matespritships with men, but could be in a moirallegiance with anyone of any gender. you could also be in an auspisticism with multiple genders, this is because both moirallegiance and auspisticism are usually based on platonic feelings as opposed to romantic or sexual. this does not invalidate the person's status as a gay man, it's just how they would do quadrants!

flipping or "vacillating" between quadrants is a natural occurrence as well. the feelings you may have for someone can be complicated and if you feel you'd want to be moirails with someone as opposed to in a kismesissitude or any other form of vacillation it's just something to talk over with your quadmate!

now, specifics for each quadrant will be under the cut!

dni link

red romance -

matesprites: matespriteship is closest to what we know as traditional romance, it is love for another person romantically and being in a relationship with them. it is also known as the flush quadrant. it's an alternative to traditional romance in the sense that it's a few new terms for how we view romance. singular: matesprite informal: flushmate verbal: i'm in hearts with x, i'm flush for x symbol: <3, ♥

moirails: moirallegiance is equated better in human terms to queerplatonic relationships, and it's an incredibly important quadrant. it is important to note that while close to a queerplatonic human relationship, it is still a form of romance and should be treated as such. moirails keep each other stable and grounded, they are there to help one another and they are extremely close. they participate in moirail based activities such as feelings jams, sessions in which the moirails will vent or talk about their feelings with support from their moirail. there are also shoosh paps, in which you shoosh someone to calm them and pap them as well (a little pat to ground them). your moirail also checks over relationships you have, they are in charge of keeping you safe as you are in charge of keeping them safe, it is a mutual support system based on deep love for one another! moirallegiance is a conciliatory quadrant, meaning it is typically not a sexual relationship, but every moirallegiance is different and has different boundaries/ways of existing! it's not all the fluffiest stuff, you can always have banter with your moirail, as long as deep down you both know how much you both care for one another. in the end it's all about how YOU work with your relationships! singular: moirail informal: palemate/diamond verbal: i'm in diamonds with x, i'm pale for x symbol: <>, ♦

black romance -

kismesis: a kismesissitude is a relationship founded on mutual respect and hatred. usually a kismesis is accompanied by underlying sexual attraction but you can be any orientation and have a kismesis. there are of course different ways to be in a kismesis with someone, but the general concept is that you both hate each other in ways that will build the other up, the constant one uppage of the relationship forces either kismesis to try and be a better person than they once were, either to prove a point or to rub it in the face of their kismesis. the most important thing to remember though is a kismesis is founded on respect just as much as it is hatred. without respect, it could very quickly turn abusive, which is obviously not okay. when dealt with healthily, a kismesis is a very good quadrant to have, it stabilizes the rest of your quadrants by giving you someone who you can be angry with and at, someone who will be angry with and at you, and someone who will constantly challenge you as a person. there is often times lots of banter/snarky remarks. singular: kismesis informal: pitchmate/spade verbal: I'm in spades with x, I'm pitch for x symbol: <3<, ♠

auspistice: an auspisticism involves three people: two people who would be in a kismesis and one who mediates between them. the auspice is in charge of making sure two in a hypothetical kismesis don't get out of hand and harm each other or others around them, as its an entirely possible occurance. when you are an auspice it is your job to make sure that your pair stay in line, if they don't there could be dire consequences and people could get hurt. the auspice is the only one feeling ashen for the pair, as the pair are constantly attempting to be in a kismesissitude. there are often feelings of fond exasperation towards an auspice's pair.

singular: auspistice informal: ashenmate/clubs verbal: I'm in clubs with x, I'm ashen for x symbol: o8<, ♣

#✧･ﾟ― ❛ shoot for the moon ★ our flags #✧･ﾟ― ❛ land among the stars ★ our terms #✧･ﾟ― ❛ out of this world ★ others terms #mogai #liom #mogai coining #liom coining #homestuck #homestuck quadrants #troll romance #matespriteship #moirallegiance #kismesissitude #auspisticism

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