#asoiaf marriage

[horizon-verizon]

The same people who love to claim that "two years is a huge difference when you're a teenager" and so you no longer get to call Rhaenyra a childbride for being forced to wed at 16 but rather someone pRiViLeGeD enough to not be forced to marry until she's an adult and it's dishonest to deflect to her book age," sure like to swear that Alicent was married off at 14 while neglecting to mention that she's 15 by the time episode 2 rolls around and probably 16 by the time she marries Viserys. But... also it's apparently still 14 because that's when her father pushed her to marry but when Rhaenyra is pushed to marry years before she's forced to she's selfish for rebuffing men older than her father... I can't.

he's 15 by the time episode 2 rolls around and probably 16 by the time she marries Viserys.

Undecided but possible. Possible but undecided.

Bk!Rhaenyra is married at 17; show!Alicent is married either 15 or 16, as anon mentions. If you know/believe 17 is a child, then bk!Rhaenyra was a child bride as well. This argument is just so dumb and in bad faith, as it is exactly as anon says: those same people will argue 2 years is a lot when you are a teen. Both also clearly didn't want to marry the spouses assign ed to them--bk!Rhaenyra gets into an argument w/Viserys abt it and has to be threatened of loss of position.

I think people have a cognitive dissonance about it bc Alicent is shown to be winning Viserys at 14-15 and so they assign "child bride" at 14 often for her.

[valyriandreamer]

𝔐arriage 𝔦n 𝔚esteros

MARRIAGE:

A marriage is a legally or formally recognised union, typically between two people. In most cases, it is a religious ceremony between one man and one woman who should not be more closely related than first cousins. The union involves the exchange of vows in the presence of sacred witnesses, such as a septon (for the Faith of the Seven), a heart tree (for the old gods), or a priest or priestess (for the Drowned God). The ceremony is followed by a feast where the bride and groom celebrate with their guests. The event concludes with the bedding, during which the marriage is consummated.

WEDDING CEREMONIES:

In Westeros, the wedding ceremony is a religious affair. The bride's father, or someone standing in for him, escorts the bride to her future husband and those officiating the marriage.

⋆ ─ Faith of the Seven: A septon presides over the ceremony, which includes prayers, vows, and singing, and takes place in a sept. The bride wears a maiden’s cloak in her house’s colours. The bride's father, or his representative, removes her cloak, allowing her husband to drape a cloak in his own house colours over her shoulders. This act symbolizes the bride’s transition from her father’s protection to her husband’s. The bride and groom then exchange vows, with the septon declaring them man and wife, proclaiming they are "one flesh, one heart, one soul, now and forever."

⋆ ─ Old Gods: The ceremonies are much shorter and involve no priests. The bride is escorted to her groom, who waits in front of the weirwood tree in the godswood. A ceremonial exchange follows, confirming the identities of the bride, the groom, and the person giving the bride away. The bride is asked to accept her husband, and upon her agreement ("I take this man"), the couple joins hands, kneels before the heart tree, and bows their heads as a sign of submission. After a moment of silent prayer, the couple rises, and the groom removes the maiden's cloak, placing his own cloak around the bride's shoulders. He then carries her to the feast in his arms. Some northmen believe that snow on a wedding day foretells a cold marriage.

CONSUMMATION:

In Westeros, the bedding occurs after the feast. The bride is escorted to her bedroom, often by the male guests, who undress her along the way while making crude jokes. The women at the feast perform the same for the groom. Once the bride and groom are in the bedchamber, they are typically left alone, though guests may gather outside the door, shouting suggestions. In some cases, witnesses may be present for the bedding, but the extent of their involvement remains unclear.

Women, especially noblewomen, are generally expected to be virgins on their wedding night. After some weddings, the bedsheets are displayed to show blood, proving the bride's virginity.

Although it is rare for a marriage to take place before the bride has had her first flowering, it does occasionally happen. However, bedding a bride so young is considered perverse.

Lords in Westeros once held the right to the first night, allowing them to bed newly-wed women before their husbands. Queen Alysanne persuaded King Jaehaerys I to abolish this practice, but it continues illegally in some parts of the North.

DIVORCE:

Vows spoken at swordpoint are not considered valid, and in theory, a marriage can not be declared if either person refuses to say the vows. However, issues of consent can still arise even when the vows are willingly spoken. In cases where lands are at stake, a lord might still claim the marriage as legal, even if it occurred under duress.

In the religion of the Drowned God, it is possible for someone to be married by proxy, without their consent, or personally saying the vows. However, if the marriage has not been consummated, it can easily be annulled.

In the Seven Kingdoms, marriages can be ended in various ways. A king has the authority to set aside his queen, even if she has borne him children, in favour of marrying another.

Under the Faith of the Seven, a marriage that has not been consummated can be annulled by the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Even if the marriage has been consummated, it can still be annulled, regardless of its length or whether children are involved. An annulment can be granted in the absence of either spouse, though it must be requested by at least one of them. The exact procedures of a Council of Faith remain undefined.

Another way to end a marriage is for the bride to join the Silent Sisters. Similarly, when a man takes the vows of the Night's Watch, his marriage is considered null and void.

POLYGAMY:

Before the Andals arrived in Westeros, Garland II Gardener, a King of the Reach known as the Bridegroom, had multiple wives. To marry the daughter of Lord Lymond Hightower, he set aside his other wives. According to the songs, Ronard Storm, a Storm King, had twenty-three wives.

Followers of the Drowned God may have only one rock wife, with whom they have trueborn children, but they are permitted to take multiple salt wives. Children born of salt wives are not considered bastards and can inherit if there are no heirs from the rock wife.

⋆ ─ All my information comes from the A Wiki of Ice and Fire page!

[amartworks]

shows up to Starfall with a newborn and tells a pregnant unmarried woman (possibly his or his dead brother's ex lover) that he killed her brother. Ned's honor has taken him to places i wouldn’t go with a gun

[lady-corrine]

The marriage of Rhaenyra and Daemon was never a matter of politics. Not only were they already aligned on the same side by the marriages of their children that they arranged (therefore being pointless to marry themselves), but the manner in which the marriage itself happened — in secret with Rhaenyra already pregnant, completely disrespecting Laena's memory and Daemon being the prime suspect in Laenor's murder — was at the opposite spectrum of any wise political decision for either of them.

[fruitageoforanges]

elia martell character of all time because she was playing the game of thrones AND WINNING — survived aerys, set up an alternate court on dragonstone, universally beloved even by most of robert’s anti-targ regime, was probably at least angling to get rid of aerys — but the literal song of ice and fire was being written around her and well. you can’t outrun your inevitable doom.

like. that’s elia’s tragedy, and what makes me so insane about her. she was in the wrong story. she was playing the game of court politics but ended up yoked to 300 years of targaryen collapse and dynastic rot instead. there’s nothing i love more than characters doing their best with the pieces they can see on the board, while the fact slowly dawns on them that the board is in the process of being swallowed by an eldritch monster.

[wodania]

pov: you are tasked with raising the son of the man you fell in love with in your youth. he is a freak, but that might actually be your fault.

happy pride guys

[jeyneofpoole]

the unequal marriage (after pukirev)

[agentrouka-blog]

Actually, Cat's marriage deal for Arya isn't that bad.

A young boy - her own age - so far down the line of succession that he would reasonably be expected to join the court of his higher ranking wife's brother - their king! - and take up some post there in his service. Under the influence and in the vicinity of Arya's family.

That's a great deal better than marrying higher into the line of succession to an older man and having to actually live at the Twins.

Cat did the best she could and it was not bad at all.

[horizon-verizon]

 In the North, Serena Stark had been wed to her half-uncle, Edric, while her sister Sansa Stark had been wed to her half-uncle Jonnel Stark.

The marriage of step-relations is a contentious issue in Westeros. When Lyonel Hightower announced his intention to marry his stepmother, Samantha Hightower, the High Septon forbade the union and deemed it a form of incest. However, Lord Hightower kept Lady Sam as his paramour for thirteen years, fathering six children on her, until the subsequent High Septon reversed his predecessor's decision and allowed the couple to marry. - asoiafwiki.

This is fine, but Rhaenyra marrying her uncle is not okay🙄

Anon is using the wiki entires on Incest from the older fan wiki for AWoIaF.

I think that people want the incest to stop...but they already know that it never does when you reach Dany's place in the timeline/current day and they continue to watch/read from the franchise anyway. I'm not sure why they expect me to care when they have also paid the price of being a part of this cabal, other than they wish to feel like they are doing right...for people that do not exist and as if humanity is just a paper sponge that soaks in values from books as if they are also not accountable of what they make of it to justify doing some stuff w/in said world, like incest. IDK.

[goodqueenaly]

Does it seem odd that when Robert Arryn brings up the hope of marrying 'Alayne' the issue of them being officially stepsiblings isn't brought up? Does this indicate that it is considered acceptable in the 7K or could it just mean that it doesn't occur to Sansa as they're merely cousins or she doesn't feel that Robert is really able to understand this? After all, Lyonel Hightower had trouble with the Faith over marrying his stepmother. Though if we're looking for real-world analogues, in Islam stepsiblings is permissible but stepparents aren't.

A couple things.

Number one, when Lysa first mentioned the marriage between Robert and Sansa (when the latter was disguised as “Alayne Stone”), she did so knowing full well who “Alayne” really was:

“I … [sic] I am married, my lady.”

“Yes, but soon a widow. Be glad the Imp preferred his whores. It would not be fitting for my son to take that dwarf’s leavings, but as he never touched you … [sic] How would you like to marry your cousin, the Lord Robert?”

(It goes without saying, of course, that this proposed marriage was never so much as formally announced, much less actively planned, in the brief period between Sansa and Littlefinger’s arrival and Lysa’s murder.)

Number two, whether or not Robert ever learned from his mother that he would marry “Alayne” someday, I wouldn’t take the beliefs of young Robert as any sort of accurate reflection on Westerosi politico-religious statutes or tradition regarding marriage. Having lost essentially the only woman in his life, not to mention the only person who ever showed him anything resembling affection (a full critical review of her parenting notwithstanding), Robert has very clearly taken to Sansa-as-Alayne as a sort of surrogate mother. Being all of eight, not to mention very sheltered and infantalized by his mother, Robert does not have a real, practical idea of what marriage in a Westerosi context means; for Robert, marriage to Sansa-as-Alayne would mean “sleep[ing] in the same bed every night” while Sansa-as-Alayne would “read [him] stories”, “sleep[ing] and kiss[ing] and play[ing] games” with him - that is, essentially what Robert already did with or wanted from Sansa-as-Alayne. Robert isn’t thinking about what the Faith of the Seven or Westerosi law would say about marriage between step-siblings (or, maybe to put it more accurately, a stepson and a bastard daughter); Robert is trying to keep close to Sansa-as-Alayne as the only person giving him some modicum of comfort, stability, and love as his mother had.

Indeed, to that point, Sansa-as-Alayne underlined the impossibility of their union for Robert:

She put a finger to his lips. “I know what you want, but it cannot be. I am no fit wife for you. I am bastard born.”

“I don’t care. I love you best of anyone.”

You are such a little fool. “Your lords bannermen will care. Some call my father upjumped and ambitious. If you were to take me to wife, they would say that he made you do it, that it was no will of yours …[”]

…

Alayne stroked his fingers. “There, my Sweetrobin, be still now.” When the shaking passed, she said, “You must have a proper wife, a trueborn maid of noble birth.”

“No. I want to marry you, Alayne.”

Once your lady mother intended that very thing, but I was trueborn then, and noble. “My lord is kind to say so.” … “Any child of ours would be baseborn. Only a trueborn child of House Arryn can displace Ser Harrold as your heir. My father will find a proper wife for you, some highborn girl much prettier than me. You’ll hunt and hawk together, and she’ll give you her favor to wear in tournaments. Before long, you will have forgotten me entirely.”

Again, because none of this has ever gone beyond the imaginations of Lysa or Robert, it is impossible to say whether the aristocracy of the Vale, much less anywhere else in Westeros, would have reacted to a betrothal ostensibly between Robert and “Alayne Stone”. (And I say “ostensibly” because even in Littlefinger’s current nuptial scheme, Sansa is going to reveal herself as Sansa Stark, rather than “Alayne Stone” at her wedding to Harry Hardyng.) It is interesting to point out that Sansa-as-Alayne’s argument to Robert isn’t that they can’t marry because his stepfather is (officially) her natural father, but that they can’t marry because this marriage would be seen as too ambitious and tyrannical a move by Littlefinger - not necessarily mutually exclusive ideas, but certainly not synonymous either. That’s not to say Sansa is any more versed in the nuances of Westerosi law and/or the doctrines of the Faith to know whether or not this marriage would also be unlawful in the eyes of man or the Seven, of course, but at bare minimum we can say that Sansa-as-Alayne’s instinct with Robert regarding this marriage is to cite the gulf of rank between them, and the perceived influence of Littlefinger, rather than any idea that such unions are objectively forbidden.

(And, when it comes to Westeros legal-religious tradition, I don’t think GRRM has really put much thought into it, as indeed I’m not sure, for example, what the High Septon could or would have done about Samantha Tarly’s allegedly incestuous marriage. Generally speaking, I don’t think GRRM puts very deep thought into the religious and legal details around rules for marriage, much to my curiosity and sometimes chagrin.)

[dailysansastark]

@sansastarkmonth2024 day 4: love/marriage.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Hi, I was wondering if you could answer a question I had about how much authority a lord has over his extended family members. Like if a lord wants to marry off one of his brother’s daughters, can he do so even if his brother refuses to agree? Who holds the most authority in a situation like that? Does it change depending on the status of the lord in question- like if he was a king, lord paramount or someone from a great house rather than a more typical lord?

Again re feudalism, a lord has as much authority as his vassals allow him, and vassals include family members. (And "allow" includes what they feel they must do per traditions and societal pressures.) Look at how Hoster Tully tried to marry off his brother Brynden to Bethany Redwyne. Brynden refused, and though this pissed off Hoster and strained his relationship with his brother, that's how he left it. A more cruel lord, who loved his brother less and his status more, might use more pressure to get his way. Lords are not bound by any law or custom to support their family members, so in the case you mention, that lord might then tell his brother "fine, then, you and your daughters have to leave". And faced with having to make his own way in the world while supporting his girls, the brother might bow his head and submit. Or maybe he would decide to be a hedge knight after all, or maybe he'd have in-laws he could look to for support, it all depends.

Though again re feudalism (because the feudal contract goes both ways), theoretically this brother could try to go over his lord brother's head and appeal to their overlord. See for example Lord Wyman Webber, who when faced with a daughter, Rohanne, who refused to marry per his command, instead wrote a will that said she had to marry within two years of his death or the lordship and the castle of Coldmoat would go to her cousin instead. It was asked within the story, couldn't Lady Rohanne appeal to her overlord, Lord Rowan, and have him override the will? Well, she tried, but that Webber cousin just happened to be married to Lord Rowan's sister, and so he upheld the will. But maybe in a different situation something could be done -- perhaps the overlord is known to be particularly noble, or perhaps this pressured brother has a connection to the overlord (maybe via his wife, maybe they were companions in battle or as squires). But still, the brother would have to take his daughter with him during this appeal, or he might return to find out she's been married off in his absence.

And as for the girl herself, could she not refuse? Even if she's underage, isn't it true, as Sansa thinks, "Not even the High Septon himself could declare a woman married if she refused to say the vows"? Well, we have Sansa's own example, where when she was faced with marrying Tyrion, Cersei told her she could be dragged to the altar and make a spectacle to be laughed at but they'd still make her do it anyway... and so Sansa submitted and said the vows. See also how Randyll Tarly forced his son Sam to join the Night's Watch. Sam didn't have to submit, there is no law saying he had to obey, but his father threatened to kill him if he didn't, and due to Sam's experience with his father's abuse (and what that abuse did to his personality), he fully believed him. Someone once asked me if an overlord could help there (though weirdly they mentioned Stannis, who wouldn't be able to do anything even if he wanted to), and the point I had to explain was that Sam was so beaten down by the abuse he never would have even considered going over his father's head, even if he could have somehow escaped his father's guards on the way north.

So with these examples, you can see where the status of the lord in question may change things -- a king, for example, has no overlords to appeal to. A lord paramount's brother could only appeal to the king. This status also changes what pressure the lord can bring to bear -- a very small lord may only have a sworn sword to threaten his brother with, a bigger lord could have a whole garrison, and the king would have not just the Kingsguard and the castle guard and the city guard but theoretically every lord and soldier in the country to use as pressure. Again, feudalism works both ways.

And generally none of this is even stated aloud. Everybody just knows the answer to "you and what army?" and so even family members understand what their lord pressuring them means. (Girls particularly innately understand this, along with patriarchal pressure; like Roslin Frey had no real choice at the Red Wedding but to obey her father, brothers, uncles, and cousins.) So, like so many things in ASOIAF's medieval-inspired era, the personal is the political. Only the personalities of the people involved, and their means of pressure or access routes to escape, are what truly defines what can happen in cases like this.

[amber-laughs]

something about robb marrying a nobody from a nothing house after finding out his oldest and closest friend betrayed him only to be betrayed by her family too

[toskarin]

btw they robbed you of renly's kingsguard (the rainbow guard) literally wearing colour coded armour like a sentai team because HBO thought it looked gay

[rhaenin-time]

Annoying people: Dany's going to lose it when she finds out about Jon and FAegon! She can't handle not being the super special only Targaryen and she's going to go mad with jealousy and insecurity.

Dany: The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.    

[martellspear]

how did it end? x hoax x my tears ricochet — rhaelia

my twisted knife, my sleepless night, my win-less fight. This has frozen my ground. we hereby conduct this post-mortem // he was a hot house flower to my outdoorsmen. my only one, my kingdom come undone, my broken drum. You have beaten my heart // our maladies were such we could not cure them, and if I'm on fire, you'll be made of ashes too // even on my worst day, did I deserve, babe, all the hell you gave me? and so a touch that was my birthright became foreign