#asoiaf marriage
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horizon-verizon · 6 months ago
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The same people who love to claim that "two years is a huge difference when you're a teenager" and so you no longer get to call Rhaenyra a childbride for being forced to wed at 16 but rather someone pRiViLeGeD enough to not be forced to marry until she's an adult and it's dishonest to deflect to her book age," sure like to swear that Alicent was married off at 14 while neglecting to mention that she's 15 by the time episode 2 rolls around and probably 16 by the time she marries Viserys. But... also it's apparently still 14 because that's when her father pushed her to marry but when Rhaenyra is pushed to marry years before she's forced to she's selfish for rebuffing men older than her father... I can't.
he's 15 by the time episode 2 rolls around and probably 16 by the time she marries Viserys.
Undecided but possible. Possible but undecided.
Bk!Rhaenyra is married at 17; show!Alicent is married either 15 or 16, as anon mentions. If you know/believe 17 is a child, then bk!Rhaenyra was a child bride as well. This argument is just so dumb and in bad faith, as it is exactly as anon says: those same people will argue 2 years is a lot when you are a teen. Both also clearly didn't want to marry the spouses assign ed to them--bk!Rhaenyra gets into an argument w/Viserys abt it and has to be threatened of loss of position.
I think people have a cognitive dissonance about it bc Alicent is shown to be winning Viserys at 14-15 and so they assign "child bride" at 14 often for her.
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asoiaf-bambii · 9 days ago
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𝔐arriage 𝔦n 𝔚esteros
MARRIAGE:
A marriage is a legally or formally recognised union, typically between two people. In most cases, it is a religious ceremony between one man and one woman who should not be more closely related than first cousins. The union involves the exchange of vows in the presence of sacred witnesses, such as a septon (for the Faith of the Seven), a heart tree (for the old gods), or a priest or priestess (for the Drowned God). The ceremony is followed by a feast where the bride and groom celebrate with their guests. The event concludes with the bedding, during which the marriage is consummated.
WEDDING CEREMONIES:
In Westeros, the wedding ceremony is a religious affair. The bride's father, or someone standing in for him, escorts the bride to her future husband and those officiating the marriage.
⋆ ─ Faith of the Seven: A septon presides over the ceremony, which includes prayers, vows, and singing, and takes place in a sept. The bride wears a maiden’s cloak in her house’s colours. The bride's father, or his representative, removes her cloak, allowing her husband to drape a cloak in his own house colours over her shoulders. This act symbolizes the bride’s transition from her father’s protection to her husband’s. The bride and groom then exchange vows, with the septon declaring them man and wife, proclaiming they are "one flesh, one heart, one soul, now and forever."
⋆ ─ Old Gods: The ceremonies are much shorter and involve no priests. The bride is escorted to her groom, who waits in front of the weirwood tree in the godswood. A ceremonial exchange follows, confirming the identities of the bride, the groom, and the person giving the bride away. The bride is asked to accept her husband, and upon her agreement ("I take this man"), the couple joins hands, kneels before the heart tree, and bows their heads as a sign of submission. After a moment of silent prayer, the couple rises, and the groom removes the maiden's cloak, placing his own cloak around the bride's shoulders. He then carries her to the feast in his arms. Some northmen believe that snow on a wedding day foretells a cold marriage.
CONSUMMATION:
In Westeros, the bedding occurs after the feast. The bride is escorted to her bedroom, often by the male guests, who undress her along the way while making crude jokes. The women at the feast perform the same for the groom. Once the bride and groom are in the bedchamber, they are typically left alone, though guests may gather outside the door, shouting suggestions. In some cases, witnesses may be present for the bedding, but the extent of their involvement remains unclear.
Women, especially noblewomen, are generally expected to be virgins on their wedding night. After some weddings, the bedsheets are displayed to show blood, proving the bride's virginity.
Although it is rare for a marriage to take place before the bride has had her first flowering, it does occasionally happen. However, bedding a bride so young is considered perverse.
Lords in Westeros once held the right to the first night, allowing them to bed newly-wed women before their husbands. Queen Alysanne persuaded King Jaehaerys I to abolish this practice, but it continues illegally in some parts of the North.
DIVORCE:
Vows spoken at swordpoint are not considered valid, and in theory, a marriage can not be declared if either person refuses to say the vows. However, issues of consent can still arise even when the vows are willingly spoken. In cases where lands are at stake, a lord might still claim the marriage as legal, even if it occurred under duress.
In the religion of the Drowned God, it is possible for someone to be married by proxy, without their consent, or personally saying the vows. However, if the marriage has not been consummated, it can easily be annulled.
In the Seven Kingdoms, marriages can be ended in various ways. A king has the authority to set aside his queen, even if she has borne him children, in favour of marrying another.
Under the Faith of the Seven, a marriage that has not been consummated can be annulled by the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Even if the marriage has been consummated, it can still be annulled, regardless of its length or whether children are involved. An annulment can be granted in the absence of either spouse, though it must be requested by at least one of them. The exact procedures of a Council of Faith remain undefined.
Another way to end a marriage is for the bride to join the Silent Sisters. Similarly, when a man takes the vows of the Night's Watch, his marriage is considered null and void.
POLYGAMY:
Before the Andals arrived in Westeros, Garland II Gardener, a King of the Reach known as the Bridegroom, had multiple wives. To marry the daughter of Lord Lymond Hightower, he set aside his other wives. According to the songs, Ronard Storm, a Storm King, had twenty-three wives.
Followers of the Drowned God may have only one rock wife, with whom they have trueborn children, but they are permitted to take multiple salt wives. Children born of salt wives are not considered bastards and can inherit if there are no heirs from the rock wife.
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⋆ ─ All my information comes from the A Wiki of Ice and Fire page!
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amartworks · 2 months ago
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shows up to Starfall with a newborn and tells a pregnant unmarried woman (possibly his or his dead brother's ex lover) that he killed her brother. Ned's honor has taken him to places i wouldn’t go with a gun
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lady-corrine · 6 months ago
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The marriage of Rhaenyra and Daemon was never a matter of politics. Not only were they already aligned on the same side by the marriages of their children that they arranged (therefore being pointless to marry themselves), but the manner in which the marriage itself happened — in secret with Rhaenyra already pregnant, completely disrespecting Laena's memory and Daemon being the prime suspect in Laenor's murder — was at the opposite spectrum of any wise political decision for either of them.
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fruitageoforanges · 11 months ago
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elia martell character of all time because she was playing the game of thrones AND WINNING — survived aerys, set up an alternate court on dragonstone, universally beloved even by most of robert’s anti-targ regime, was probably at least angling to get rid of aerys — but the literal song of ice and fire was being written around her and well. you can’t outrun your inevitable doom.
like. that’s elia’s tragedy, and what makes me so insane about her. she was in the wrong story. she was playing the game of court politics but ended up yoked to 300 years of targaryen collapse and dynastic rot instead. there’s nothing i love more than characters doing their best with the pieces they can see on the board, while the fact slowly dawns on them that the board is in the process of being swallowed by an eldritch monster.
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wodania · 7 months ago
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pov: you are tasked with raising the son of the man you fell in love with in your youth. he is a freak, but that might actually be your fault.
happy pride guys
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jeyneofpoole · 1 year ago
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the unequal marriage (after pukirev)
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dailysansastark · 7 months ago
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@sansastarkmonth2024 day 4: love/marriage.
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goodqueenaly · 5 months ago
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what do you think is the reason for baelor breakspear, the literal crown prince, marrying jena dondarrion, a lady from a very minor house in the dornish marches who presumably didnt like the dornish very much? could it have been daeron ii arranging this marriage to curry favour with dorne's enemies by marrying his very dornish son to a marcher lord's daughter and thus in a way simulating peace between the marchers and the dornish in the eyes of the realm? or could it have been a way to keep the blackfyre supporters in line assuming baelor married after the first rebellion, since one of the reasons for the uprising was anti-dornish sentiment?
Number one, I don’t think we can call the Dondarrions “a very minor House”. Indeed, Yandel himself counts the Dondarrions (alongside the Swanns, Selmys, and Carons) as one of “[t]he greatest of the Marcher lords” and refers to the Dondarrion seat of Blackhaven as “[a]mong the sternest of the Marcher seats … with its forbidding black basalt walls and bottomless dry moat”. Lord Harmon Dondarrion seems to have been of equal rank to Lord Tarly and Lady Caron, as all served as commanders during the campaign in Aenys I’s reign against the Vulture King, and Lord Dondarrion served as one of the three Marcher representatives at the wedding of Queen Alyssa and Rogar Baratheon. Queen Alysanne clearly considered the Dondarrions important enough to include on the royal couple’s tour of the Dornish Marches in 54 AC, and later a Dondarrion was one of the “dozen fresh young maidens chosen from amongst a hundred who coveted the distinction of serving as a companion to the queen [i.e. Alysanne]" - proof, I think, of the rank of the Dondarrions even relative to other Westerosi aristocrats. Notably as well in the main novels, Sansa thinks that while Jeyne Poole - herself an aristocrat, albeit an actually low-ranking and probably landless one - mooned after Lord Beric, the Lord of Blackhaven “would never look at someone so far beneath him”. 
Number two, it seems almost certain that Baelor and Jena were married prior to the First Blackfyre Rebellion. Valarr, their elder son, was not only old enough to joust as a knight at Ashford in 209 AC, suggesting that Valarr was at least 16 or so at that time, but was also big and tall enough for his nearly 40-year-old warrior father to plausibly borrow and wear his armor during the trial of seven, suggesting that Valarr was old enough to have reached his adult build and height. Personally, I think Baelor and Jena were married roughly around the mid to late 180s and Valarr was born around the late 180s, but whenever the actual wedding occurred, it’s impossible that Valarr was born in or after 196 AC, and as such his parents had to have been married ahead of the First Blackfyre Rebellion.
All of that said, why do I think Prince Baelor and Jena Dondarrion were married? Put very simply, I think Daeron II correctly recognized the fault lines of political factionalism in his kingdom and wanted to repair, rather than deepen, those divisions. From the beginning of his reign, King Daeron had very publicly advertised his desire to unite Dorne with the Targaryen kingdom. Not only was Daeron himself happily married to Myriah Martell, but as Yandel notes, “one of [Daeron’s] earliest significant acts after assuming the throne was to begin negotiations with his good-brother, Prince Maron, to unify Dorne under Targaryen rule” - negotiations which ended with the homage of Prince Maron and his wedding to the king’s sister, Princess Daenerys. Between the unique “significant rights and privileges” granted to the Dornish lords and the Prince of Dorne in particular in the peace accord, and the Dornishmen who were given places at court and “offices of note” under Daeron II, the king was making very clear that his government was openly and ardently pro-Dorne. 
Yet as Daeron II certainly realized, such courtly and political favoritism toward Dorne generally and House Martell specifically would hardly be received rapturously by the entirety of his realm. From the earliest days of the Targaryen monarchy, the dragonkings had, in the tradition of the Plantagenets and any number of other real-world monarchies, claimed dominion over Dorne, in title if not in fact. Daeron I had come closest, if relatively briefly, to making this paper crown of "King of the Rhoynar" a reality, and Daeron II’s own father Aegon IV had (albeit almost certainly for selfish and petty reasons) attempted to reignite (pun intended) the conquest of Dorne by House Targaryen. Daeron II’s pro-Dorne policies, then, were very much poised to be seen, at least by some of his subjects, as a jarring reversal away from a century and a half of Targaryen posturing and conquest and toward a political reality where the Dornish were, to borrow Yandel’s phrase, “rivals for the king’s attention or largesse”. That suspicion extended to Daeron’s heir: according to Yandel, “many men looked upon Baelor’s dark hair and eyes and muttered that he was more Martell than Targaryen”. This Martell-looking eldest son of a Martell queen, double first cousins with the future of the ruling dynasty of Dorne, may have seemed to suspicious factions to be the living guarantee that Martell, and more generally Dornish, royal favor was going to continue, if not indeed be increased, in the next generation of the Targaryen monarchy. 
The solution, I think, for Daeron II was to marry his eldest son and heir into one of the marcher lord dynasties. These families, founded explicitly according to Yandel to “[protect] the realm of the Storm Kings from the ancient enemies to the west and, especially, the south” and to “create a bulwark against incursions from the Dornish”, would almost certainly have been the most natural opponents of Daeron II’s pro-Dorne policies (and, given their famous pride, perhaps among the most vocal in their opposition). By choosing from among these lords for not just his daughter-in-law but the future (expected) Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and (expected) mother of the next king, Daeron II was making just as public a statement that his was not a client state of Sunspear but a united realm - one in which the proud marchers would have just as much opportunity for courtly favor and advancement as the Martells and other Dornish nobles did. The Dondarrions, and by extension any of their relatives and allies among the marchers, would be directly invested in the dynasty, with a tangible incentive for supporting Daeron II’s government (as opposed to, say, looking to Daemon Blackfyre as a rival for the throne). Too, if I can quote myself, the future (expected) royal children of Baelor and Jena, especially their (expected) eldest son and heir, “would be a microcosm of the peace Daeron sought”, as “Dornish blood and marcher blood, eternally spilled at the other’s expense, would mingle in a single person, a future king of the united state of Westeros”. 
One question I do have - though we’ll probably have to wait until Fire and Blood Volume 2 for an answer - is why Daeron II selected a Dondarrion rather than, say, a Swann or Caron. It could be that there were no daughters of the right age among any of other other prominent marcher families; it could be that Daeron II knew or liked Jena’s family more than he did, say, other marcher families; it could even be that Daeron chose the Dondarrions to temper the local geopolitical ambitions of the Swanns and Carons to each be counted “the oldest of the Marcher houses” and superior over the rest, with the king perhaps quietly reminding the Swanns and Carons that he had the power to humble as well as exalt. 
(Let's just hope that F&B Vol. 2 improves upon its predecessor and has Jena as an active, developed crown princess and would-be queen, rather than a walking womb or - ugh - another victim of death-by-childbirth.)
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horizon-verizon · 6 months ago
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 In the North, Serena Stark had been wed to her half-uncle, Edric, while her sister Sansa Stark had been wed to her half-uncle Jonnel Stark.
The marriage of step-relations is a contentious issue in Westeros. When Lyonel Hightower announced his intention to marry his stepmother, Samantha Hightower, the High Septon forbade the union and deemed it a form of incest. However, Lord Hightower kept Lady Sam as his paramour for thirteen years, fathering six children on her, until the subsequent High Septon reversed his predecessor's decision and allowed the couple to marry. - asoiafwiki.
This is fine, but Rhaenyra marrying her uncle is not okay🙄
Anon is using the wiki entires on Incest from the older fan wiki for AWoIaF.
I think that people want the incest to stop...but they already know that it never does when you reach Dany's place in the timeline/current day and they continue to watch/read from the franchise anyway. I'm not sure why they expect me to care when they have also paid the price of being a part of this cabal, other than they wish to feel like they are doing right...for people that do not exist and as if humanity is just a paper sponge that soaks in values from books as if they are also not accountable of what they make of it to justify doing some stuff w/in said world, like incest. IDK.
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amber-laughs · 1 year ago
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something about robb marrying a nobody from a nothing house after finding out his oldest and closest friend betrayed him only to be betrayed by her family too
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nobodysuspectsthebutterfly · 4 months ago
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Hi, I was wondering if you could answer a question I had about how much authority a lord has over his extended family members. Like if a lord wants to marry off one of his brother’s daughters, can he do so even if his brother refuses to agree? Who holds the most authority in a situation like that? Does it change depending on the status of the lord in question- like if he was a king, lord paramount or someone from a great house rather than a more typical lord?
Again re feudalism, a lord has as much authority as his vassals allow him, and vassals include family members. (And "allow" includes what they feel they must do per traditions and societal pressures.) Look at how Hoster Tully tried to marry off his brother Brynden to Bethany Redwyne. Brynden refused, and though this pissed off Hoster and strained his relationship with his brother, that's how he left it. A more cruel lord, who loved his brother less and his status more, might use more pressure to get his way. Lords are not bound by any law or custom to support their family members, so in the case you mention, that lord might then tell his brother "fine, then, you and your daughters have to leave". And faced with having to make his own way in the world while supporting his girls, the brother might bow his head and submit. Or maybe he would decide to be a hedge knight after all, or maybe he'd have in-laws he could look to for support, it all depends.
Though again re feudalism (because the feudal contract goes both ways), theoretically this brother could try to go over his lord brother's head and appeal to their overlord. See for example Lord Wyman Webber, who when faced with a daughter, Rohanne, who refused to marry per his command, instead wrote a will that said she had to marry within two years of his death or the lordship and the castle of Coldmoat would go to her cousin instead. It was asked within the story, couldn't Lady Rohanne appeal to her overlord, Lord Rowan, and have him override the will? Well, she tried, but that Webber cousin just happened to be married to Lord Rowan's sister, and so he upheld the will. But maybe in a different situation something could be done -- perhaps the overlord is known to be particularly noble, or perhaps this pressured brother has a connection to the overlord (maybe via his wife, maybe they were companions in battle or as squires). But still, the brother would have to take his daughter with him during this appeal, or he might return to find out she's been married off in his absence.
And as for the girl herself, could she not refuse? Even if she's underage, isn't it true, as Sansa thinks, "Not even the High Septon himself could declare a woman married if she refused to say the vows"? Well, we have Sansa's own example, where when she was faced with marrying Tyrion, Cersei told her she could be dragged to the altar and make a spectacle to be laughed at but they'd still make her do it anyway... and so Sansa submitted and said the vows. See also how Randyll Tarly forced his son Sam to join the Night's Watch. Sam didn't have to submit, there is no law saying he had to obey, but his father threatened to kill him if he didn't, and due to Sam's experience with his father's abuse (and what that abuse did to his personality), he fully believed him. Someone once asked me if an overlord could help there (though weirdly they mentioned Stannis, who wouldn't be able to do anything even if he wanted to), and the point I had to explain was that Sam was so beaten down by the abuse he never would have even considered going over his father's head, even if he could have somehow escaped his father's guards on the way north.
So with these examples, you can see where the status of the lord in question may change things -- a king, for example, has no overlords to appeal to. A lord paramount's brother could only appeal to the king. This status also changes what pressure the lord can bring to bear -- a very small lord may only have a sworn sword to threaten his brother with, a bigger lord could have a whole garrison, and the king would have not just the Kingsguard and the castle guard and the city guard but theoretically every lord and soldier in the country to use as pressure. Again, feudalism works both ways.
And generally none of this is even stated aloud. Everybody just knows the answer to "you and what army?" and so even family members understand what their lord pressuring them means. (Girls particularly innately understand this, along with patriarchal pressure; like Roslin Frey had no real choice at the Red Wedding but to obey her father, brothers, uncles, and cousins.) So, like so many things in ASOIAF's medieval-inspired era, the personal is the political. Only the personalities of the people involved, and their means of pressure or access routes to escape, are what truly defines what can happen in cases like this.
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toskarin · 11 months ago
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btw they robbed you of renly's kingsguard (the rainbow guard) literally wearing colour coded armour like a sentai team because HBO thought it looked gay
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rhaenin-time · 9 months ago
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Annoying people: Dany's going to lose it when she finds out about Jon and FAegon! She can't handle not being the super special only Targaryen and she's going to go mad with jealousy and insecurity.
Dany: The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.    
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martellspear · 3 months ago
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how did it end? x hoax x my tears ricochet — rhaelia
my twisted knife, my sleepless night, my win-less fight. This has frozen my ground. we hereby conduct this post-mortem // he was a hot house flower to my outdoorsmen. my only one, my kingdom come undone, my broken drum. You have beaten my heart // our maladies were such we could not cure them, and if I'm on fire, you'll be made of ashes too // even on my worst day, did I deserve, babe, all the hell you gave me? and so a touch that was my birthright became foreign
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westerosiladies · 7 months ago
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Sansa Stark Appreciation Week Day Four - Love/Marriage
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