#asoiaf knighthood

[iceywolf24]

Bran + the oath of knighthood

In the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave

Something about the way the raven screamed sent a shiver running up Bran's spine. I am almost a man grown, he had to remind himself. I have to be brave now. - Bran II ADWD

In the name of the Father I charge you to be just

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is." - Bran I AGOT

In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent

A good lord protects his people, he reminded himself. "I've yielded Winterfell to Theon." - Bran VI ACOK

In the name of the Maid I charge you to protect all women

Bran wanted to give the lady a hundred men to defend her rights - Bran II ACOK

[horizon-verizon]

Why does Jon Connington dislike Elia so much? She died in such a tragic way, yet he never has a kind word for her, not even in front of her 'son.'

DISCLAIMER: I could have been concise, but as I was writing all this, I came to a lot of realizations, so apologies in advance.

It's a very passive hatred and I think it's because he's uber-closeted at a level that's breathtaking. Wholly, it's a coping mechanism of and against queerness and misogyny the way with him for that. He's a bag of self contradictories and doesn't have much regard for his own life out of a deep sense of failure to perform an ideal he layers on top of his extant political function as one of the Targs' protectors. I often think about that one poem where the speaker's like "I am not in love with you, I am in love with being in love" when I try to think about Jon Con.

Like Cersei, he eventually pedestalizes Rhaegar and even more so after his death. He's made him into a paragon of male virtue and human appeal so he could continue to feel his desires are not abnormal. While Cersei does it because it was like she was as close to the sort of power masculinized in that world and denied to woman (which is just as a "visceral" thing, to have agency), Jon Con does it to affirm his own "lacking" masculinity. He is not totally comfortable with his own sexuality nor the yearning since he still has to go out into the world and "be a man". Through Rhaegar he definitely can at least privately express/validate that yearning and feel like a man but also close to "men" without having to really address it consciously or exposing it. By not really confronting the layers of himself "all the way" or as much as he could, he re-relies on that patriarchal definition and field of "manliness". It's close to having one's cake and eating it, too. A compulsion that replaces real connection; but it he kinda transformed himself into an all feeling automaton in the process in order to fulfill the compulsion to "sacrifice" his life to something like a higher purpose. And Elia was not a person-person but a means to further Rhaegar.

A)

This is a society where:

there is an emphasis on obedience, maintaining the social hierarchy, and obligation to one's "lord" or the gods, and yes the Faith of the Seven (the fictional Catholicism) informs the model of masculinity in Westeros, esp through the Andal chivalry and courtliness; the express/prove/practice the "greatest" form of love to either a lover or the gods or one's lord is to completely sublimate oneself to the gods'/lord's rule and wellbeing...which kinda came on conflict with the whole warrior-takes-all thing until the emphasis on fighting for a specific lord but it's self contradictory in its rigidity

men who may love to read without also swinging swords/being good at that and aren't maesters/are not studying to be one are close to "unmanning" themselves. Let's sit with that. Maleness is proving to other men you have "strength" and having control over as many bodies as one can...doesn't really lend into exploring oneself or seeing things to appreciate in others or nature, and aristocratic maleness (the primary-only ones allowed to use warfare to acquire resources) is the ideal/only "human" that exists or matters. A man's very health is treated one and the same as his "manliness", sometimes literally (some research reveals that having a mistress showed a ruler's very virality and prostitutes were "necessary" for men to relieve their pressing "urges" without becoming violent and disrupting the "order"--[at least]15th to 19th centuries). This sort of context breeds very emotionally stunted men who can really/mostly only objectify people and compartmentalize others and their own emotions. It breeds a certain inflexibility in men that close down their means of really being aware of their own actions' consequences or caring beyond THE GOAL. You also must dehumanize women.

Every person in this society who does not or can't conform to the conscripts placed on them according has had to develop ways to both perform their social "duties" while coming to terms with the limits of said duties on how they can express themselves, find intimacy, access resources or amenities, accrue social respect, etc. For men, that is military achievements and violence to show you can get material objects and/or protect your lord's best interests. One thing about Jon is that he's always been hungry for "glory" like many other men and boys, to make his "name" mean something and gain that sort of "love". Problem with this sort of masculinity is that it cyclically generates an insecurity in men & boys and compels them to disregard most other types of male affection other than those which "coincidentally" serve the higher lord.

GRRM informed us that Jon was gay not-so subtly. Unlike Laenor or Renly or Loras or the Daeron prince Olenna avoided marrying, Jon hasn't had a real lover (someone he shared a life with) to even help to alleviate this compelled loneliness that goes beyond having a lover. And I don't mean people he's slept with, I mean a man invested in his well being, always having his back and prioritizing him the way very close companions or partners do. This maybe Jon's most safe way of experiencing lover's love and "love" himself.

B)

So another thing about him coming from this phenomenon is he seems to want to have real male companions & "love" them in other ways than just romantically. But even male platonic affection is pretty restrictive as much as we have Ned and Robert's friendship...which we see in the first book is unsteady and false with every realization that Ned has about Robert.

Making up for that kind of stunted platonic love, the sensual (diff from sexual) affection he has for men & Rhaegar works to maintain that sense of intimacy he craves. Once when Rhaegar visited his family's lands, Jon says Rhaegar's music/voice moved women to cry, and they seemed to connect to something he is aware of in himself (again, other than his sexual attraction to men), but the men around Rhaegar do not or won't and thus cannot even fathom or detect. A certain "appreciation" for beauty in life or the capacity to observe such, which is a sensual experience in of itself. That would be a wonder to see in a man; the beauty is and has to be under a guise of male domination. Loras and Renly, that Daeron prince and his lover, and Laenor x Joffrely/Qarl still must live in secret, as open as it was, but theirs was a different sort of "hiding" bc they don't hide themselves from themselves to the extent that Jon does. I think that it is very likely that present-day! nor past!Jon may not grab that chance of love and companionship because the covertness of the love like Renly/Laenor/Daeron can no longer compare to the imagined satisfaction or fulfillment of his obligation to Rhaegar OR/AND it would mean he'd have to re-adjust some ideas of masculinity he doesn't want to re-adjust, and like I mentioned I think this guy feels the need to just hold on to every scrap of conventional masculinity to feel normal.

The men like his father certainly cannot care about such a visceral thing that exists in these people that makes them feel connected to something more then themselves but also exactly like themselves; his dad was way more eager to talk about lands with Rhaegar and acquiring them to care. So perhaps Jon also saw in Rhaegar's known melancholy disposition who didn't quite fit Andal-Faith patriarchal conventions a fellow outsider. The single-mindedness I mentioned could come from his own unwillingness to really let Rhaegar be a normal guy.

He def always tried to put his yearning to use into a source of the single-minded devotion to his political function to Rhaegar and his family as a protector. Rhaegar was good with the sword, but the symbol we readers and the world then see him through his songs and his harp; Rhaegar is a figure of poetry and emotion that is socially divorced or posed counter to warfare, and he like Dany or Lyanna moves between the gender binaries of this world. Rhaegar became the lynchpin to Jon's own understanding of what a "man" is through Rhaegar being a sort of portal to this "thing" that really many humans across identities feel, this sensual love for life and anything that could psychologically move you (you can't really "escape" music and thus music has always been a very "easy" spiritual device to transmit emotion).

Even before Rhaegar's death, I think he felt very indebted to and psychologically dependent on Rhaegar's wellbeing, which he conflated with political "success" through a legacy now that the actual man is dead. Rhaegar has to mean something so his own dedication might be "real". Rhaegar's death and then his failure to even perform this "simple" duty towards Rhaegar only inflated this devotion to this sort of devotion.

Rhaegar's family (Elia and the kids) is only as valuable as what they do for Rhaegar-the-heir, Rhaegar-the-man.

C)

Jon does express that Elia's death was horrible (A Dance with Dragons - "The Lost Lord"):

but it's less about Elia's suffering and how her suffering is part of the larger loss he and many people saw that the Targs and esp Rhaegar had. Elia is not really much of a person so much as a vessel or device AND a part of a whole.

She also got to be with Rhaegar and experience many more aspects of inaccessible intimacy he feels he can never have. Be sexually and emotionally (even if not exactly romantic) intimate with him in all the ways Jon Con never could. AND IN "PUBLIC" in ways he could never even if Rhaegar ever returned his feelings.

And after all that, she can't do the one thing that she/women in general in this society are socially "obligated" to do (A Dance with Dragons - "Griffin Reborn"):

I think that part of how he dealt/deals with his unrequited AND unfulfilled (read: "impossible") affections for Rhaegar--AND/OR men/human love in general--is that this and most marriages have the function that would benefit Rhaegar in getting him heirs, and Jon himself can "benefit" or be useful to Rhaegar as his and his father's Hand or protector. An expression of that affection-devotion, a tweaking of the lady and her courtly knight/lover from courtly and chivalric romance, but gay, or really queer. Because his secret yearning runs parallel to his sexuality and his sexuality fuels that sensual. yearning, it's queer as all hell. But he's so baked into the masculinity train, he also still carries the sexism.

If Elia, who's allowed to receive Rhaegar in those desired forms, can't even do "this one thing right", it's like a slap in Jon's face at times because that small nest, this group of people bounded by "duty" and practicing affections (Elia, Rhaegar, all of Rhaegar's closest friends, himself, Rhaegar's children) that he convinced himself to adopt as his existential purpose, is created for the man he idolized, or centered around him. As what this system designs that to be, as when if you need anything done you need heirs, connections, etc.

We also know Rhaegar had some sort of private goal, and every companion he had may not have told them expressly what it was but each more than likely wanted to anything they could to help him nonetheless perform it, which entails self sacrifice.

[horizon-verizon]

The Faith of the Seven is the origin and guide of many values in Westeros and it is the means by which to affirm its patriarchal structure through ideals of masculinity and womanhood. And it is a huge informant of the dynamics between the identities b/t man-woman, lord-vassal, the gods-humans, humans-animals as a black-and-white binary of ruler/source-subaltern/inferior (those who are recognized as having autonomy and authority over others versus those who live to serve & upkeep those with authority).

Criston is a warrior sworn to only the Monarch of the realm (protect them & those they are tasked to protect, keep their secrets, obey them, etc.) and part of the values Westerosis have is female submission and all that entails it maritally, military wise, etc. Andal, chivalric warrior tradition is to "protect" the ill, children, women and though protecting the vulnerable is necessary and important, part of how womanhood facilitates masculinity in Westeros is that a woman does not question or challenge much of masculinity. Rhaenyra does so by refusing to run away with Cole, who seeks to use marriage vows & them running off together to "restore" his own sense of honor while completely ignoring how this would destroy hers in the process. Patriarchy is the constant moving of goalposts to center the priorities and desires/needs of men. This is why he considers Rhaenyra a "whore" both in show and in the book. A "whore" or a "slut" is always a woman who refuses to limit/submit their body and their entire selves as a device for others sexually/reproductively.

So I disagree with the idea that sexism/misogyny is not why Cole hates Rhaenyra, since the point/root reason behind all this:

self-loathing that he projects onto Rhaenyra because it's easier than having to sit with his own guilt, so I suspect some of that does remain to him. His broken honor is something that can never be repaired, not entirely, (because he did do it. He broke his oaths, he sullied his honor, and he remains in the Kingsguard where that black mark must always be in the back of his mind) and I think on some level he is painfully aware that his honor cannot be repaired in its entirety and he hates that. Alicent provides him with a new oath, a way to redirect his fervency, a willing stand-in for the kind of relationship he wanted with Rhaenyra

is that he must put blame on the person who is not at fault for his own decision of choosing to break his own vows. It has to be Rhaenyra/a woman specifically bc said woman refused to give up her entire life just so he can feel better about a decision he made...instead of accepting that she wanted to do as many other men have already done: keep a side lover while ruling or anticipating rule and married for political alliance.

His "self-loathing" stems from his not being able to leverage his false victimhood against Rhaenyra, as that is the primary value of masculinity and being a warrior, which itself is masculinized in Westeros. He can't do so or force her bc Rhaenyra's being used to affirm Viserys' determination to make up for his own false prophesizing and use of Aemma for said prophecy/prophetic beliefs in needing a male heir. Viserys, the King, i.e., the highest "secular" authority and his direct "boss".

Rhaenyra has the protection/edge--unlike other women and girls if Cole had done the same to them--of her heirship/father/class. And she refuses to give up that edge not even some lord's daughters have when it'd be more convenient for Cole for her to do so.

With Alicent--who though the queen Consort also gives up much of her own possible powers (or what she can make of them, as bk!Alicent does often) to further Otto's both consciously and unconsciously--he's back to fighting for a "worthy" woman who herself is seeking to "restore" female submissiveness to a traditional, patriarchal (these are one and the same in Westeros, they can never be not) sociopolitical imperative: males determine female bodies' movements, purpose, etc. Politics and psychology are not unreciprocated, totally independent, mutually exclusive, un-informing, separate entities.

Alicent wishes to reinstate the feudal in order to feel as if she gets something out of the "deal" feudal patriarchy foisted onto her and other women. For her, he at least gets to be recognized as one who helped men to reinstate that power, thus she can finally be validated. (duty and sacrifice), and more than Aegon becoming king, it is about not letting a woman rise above the state of "second place" or her "natural" state as being the dependent/subject of/governed by/obedient/subordinate/attendant/collateral/secondary to/at the mercy of "man".

So yeah, Alicent "saved" Cole, bc Cole IS this need to subordinate women for this particular misogynist order that he inevitably bases his own worth on...that his vows he doesn't think critically about will always be based on.

do you think criston is still ridden with guilt even 10 years later for losing his virginity/honor or did he reclaim that when alicent granted him mercy and a new purpose but even now 10 years later that regained sense of chivalry and honor is somehow twisted by his misery/hatred for rhaenyra?

Oh anon, this is the juiciest of questions, thank you so much for asking.

I think on some level, his intense hatred of Rhaenyra has to stem from his sense of broken honor (and figurative loss of virginity), doesn't it? What I think is often missed in interpretations of his character is how much of it is self-loathing that he projects onto Rhaenyra because it's easier than having to sit with his own guilt, so I suspect some of that does remain to him. His broken honor is something that can never be repaired, not entirely, (because he did do it. He broke his oaths, he sullied his honor, and he remains in the Kingsguard, where that black mark must always be in the back of his mind) and I think on some level he is painfully aware that his honor cannot be repaired in its entirety and he hates that. Alicent provides him with a new oath, a way to redirect his fervency, a willing stand-in for the kind of relationship he wanted with Rhaenyra (sans quite as much romantic longing, I think, if only because he's been burned once and I doubt he wants to be again). She provides a shield of moral superiority, yes, but there is no way to repair what he had already done.

So, I suppose at the end of the day, Criston is so bitter because of this inner awareness that his newfound honor and moral superiority is a lie. And, in his mind, Rhaenyra made a liar out of him.

(As an addendum: I really do think one of the reasons, beyond guilt, that he's so bitter still is both because he's in the same castle as Rhaenyra (where they have to see each other) and also because he's close friends with Alicent. They both hate Rhaenyra, are forced into proximity with Rhaenyra, and undoubtably have radicalized each other's hatred of her over a ten year period. I think his guilt and misery over breaking his oath is the originating factor of his hatred but--have you ever had to be around someone you already didn't like? Because you will hate everything they do, even the stupid little things that don't matter. And ten years is a long time to let a hate like that fester into rot).

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

You are a knight in King's Landing and suddenly you bump into the Kingslayer, Ser Jaime, who starts one of his nerdy monologues about knights from the long forgotten past. Knights you didn't even know and you don't care about. But since he's the brother to the Queen and the uncle of the King (lol), you don't want to irritate him so you pretend to listen while you wish you were anywhere but there.

#justknightlythings

[sare11aa11eras]

Okay to further the argument: Ser Robert Strong/Gregor Clegane is both the worst Kingsguard and the pinnacle of the Kingsguard. He’s assaulted a Princess and murdered three members of the Royal Family (let’s leave aside the fact that the current Royal Family is not the same). He’s a serial killer. He is presented in Book One as the fundamental deconstructed truth of knighthood, the reason why the Hound exists and why Sandor can never be a knight. Gregor is the embodiment of the Lannister army in book 2. But then at the same time, he is the Kingsguard ideal— completely obedient, completely without thought, agency, interest, motivation, or qualm. Ser Gerold Hightower says that the Kingsguard are sworn to defend the king, not judge him. You know who will never judge the king? A brainless zombie. You know who can never object to a king’s order? A brainless zombie. You know who is really good at singlemindedly killing all physical threats?? A SEVEN FOOT TALL BRAINLESS ZOMBIE. Arys Oakheart almost got his charge killed because a hot girl told him to. Criston Cole started a civil war. Jaime Lannister killed the king to save the city. You know who’s not doing any of that? Robert Strong.

Visenya Targaryen had many legacies. Her son, Maegor the Cruel, bears a certain resemblance to Robert Strong, both being massive, strong, brutal, and cruel men with multiple wives, both probably the products of dark magic— which I find fitting because Robert Strong is the final essence of perhaps her most enduring legacy: the institution of the Kingsguard.

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

Randomly thinking about grrm’s deconstruction of knighthood in asoiaf and how ironic it is that the Night’s Watch - an organization known to be half full of murderers, rapists, thieves, and all sorts of criminals - is essentially in charge of defending all of humanity when shit hits the fan. Like westeros just scrambled ‘the lowest of the low’ together into a penal colony in the far north and is totally fine depending on them for their survival; though tbf, i guess part of it has to do with expecting these societal ‘others’ to give their not so valuable lives for the good of the realm, who really cares if they live or die because they’re out of sight and out of mind. And it’s kinda funny too when we factor in the kingsguard because it’s a far more respected institution than the NW presently, but it too has its fair share of monsters. Quite a few men of the kingsguard have been morally bankrupt individuals, and we even see how the men of the KG sometimes forget other people they should be responsible for because their one priority is the king (we see what happens when you put the people of the realm first and then are ostracized by it a la Jaime tho there’s more to it). Missing the forest for the tree is something both institutions share, making them quite similar. So it’s interesting how grrm flips the fantasy classic of the black knight vs the white knight. The black knight is often anti-heroic, if not straight up villainous, and is often made to be diametrically opposed to the valiant and ever good white knight. But asoiaf has white and black knights both be shown of great virtue and great vice. The white knights in this story really are no better than the black knights. I’d love to see how these two entities could intersect, i.e., what happens when a white knight eventually changes his cloak for a black one (*cough* Jaime *cough*) and how that falls into grrm’s deconstruction of the romance of chivalry, the extent of personal heroism, and perceived knightly virtue. Welp I don’t even know what point I’m trying to make anymore, I just wanted to talk about the KG and the NW because they’re really cool.

[horizon-verizon]

*EDITED REBLOG* 11/4/23

Revisiting this Topic: Rhaegar's Actions with Lyanna and Elia

Comments in this thread to Remember:

[winelover1989] it's because cheating is something everyone has actually experienced at some point in their lives so the visceral hate comes from a more personal place compared to the other stuff that horrifies people in more of a news way

[riana-one] Because no one tries to justify what Tywin or Gregor did to Elia while every insane shipper tries to justify, explain away, or defend what Rhaegar did to his wife and children.

[riana-one] Nationally humiliating his pregnant wife. Disappearing after kicking off a major war while leaving his wife and children unprotected and in the reach of Aerys.

[aemontargaryen-bloodraven] Just a warning, Riana-one has dedicated her life to Rhaegar bashing and calling Jon, a Blackfyre for some reason. Also, she is a fan of fics that has Eddard Stark getting Lyanna drugged and forcefully marrying her to Oberyn where she and Jon are constantly abused.

[riana-one] And here we have the disconnect. Rhaegar was not the 'victim', Rhaegar started the entire bloody affair. Disappearing with the Warden of the North's daughter and leaving the diplomatic crisis in the hands of his mad father who burned people alive for dinner theater was the equivalent of throwing a burning match into a barn with all his loved ones aside. You want to reframe the argument about infidelity?

[riana-one] What is worse is leaving your vulnerable wife and children alone, abandoned, and unguarded while a war rages and your mad father can get his hands on them. Aerys regularly savaged his sister queen so badly he maids thought a wild animal attacker her. Elia and her children were in danger, the minute they were ordered to leave Dragonstone. Even leading an army of Dornishmen, Rhaegar leaves his family to Aerys. Then he dies.

[riana-one] You want to minimize Rhaegar's actions but the sad truth that the only reason Elia and her children were in a position to be harmed by Tywin Lannister and his goons because Rhaegar. If Rhaegar hadn't run off with Lyanna, none of this would have happened. If Rhaegar had stuck around to face the Starks, none of this would happen. If Rhaegar had sent his wife and children to Dorne or Essos, none of this would happen. But you want Rhaegar to be the victim.

Tracking Rhaegar's, Elia, and Lyanna's Moves Right Before the Rebellion and During It:

281 A.C. -- Rhaegar gives Lyanna the winter rose crown of love and beauty instead of his wife Elia (presumably, if we traece other fans' ideas, bc of many things: he admired her disguised participation as the Knight of the Laughing Tree; wanted the Starks or Baratheons to become more invested through even their outrage [this was a person's theory]; with the said crown he might have seen a vision with winter roses and Lyanna in it and decided to take that risk in that moment to trigger events he thought he needed.)

281-282 A.C. -- Rhaegar leaves Elia and their kids at Dragonstone "with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands" (TWoIaF -- the Year of the False Spring). Where they had already been living, away from Aerys, presumably bc Aerys is fucking bonkers and Rhaegar wanted to protect his family from him!

282 A.C. -- around Harrenhal, Rhaegar and Lyanna disappear together, triggering her father and brother to travel to KL by themselves and Brandon (brother) calls out ""come out and die.", not knowing Rhaegar is not in the city -> Aerys tortures and burns both him and his father

(*later, c 282-283 A.C.) Aerys calls back Elia and her kids by his side with -> sometime between Rhaegar leaving and him coming back with his army, where he then speaks to Jaime about protecting the city (and presumably Elia & their kids)

c. 283 A.C. -- Aerys King Aerys sent Ser Gerold Hightower (the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard) to retrieve Rhaegar

283 A.C. -- Rhaegar returns to the crownlands and takes command of the Targaryen army after Jon Connington loses in the battle of the Bells

283 -- Battle of the Trident -> Rhaegar dies

283 A.C. -- Aerys sends pregnant Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstrone but keeps Elia and her kids with him in fear of the Martells betraying him

Current Thoughts (Which for the most part, hasn't changed)

A)

Rhaegar was dead before the Sacking of King's Landing, as the Battle of the Trident occurred before that sack. and way before that, before he met up with Lyanna, he had left Elia and their kids at Dragonstone, a place where anyone in his and her position would think they would be safe. After he did this, he traveled around with companions for a while.

It was Aerys who recalled Elia and her kids and used their lives to KL to use against his enemies and motivate Elia's uncle Doran--Prince of Dorne--to send his troops and aid him/Rhaegar just before the Battle of the Trident.

Sometime b/t the time Rhaegar left Elia at Dragonstone and when Rhaegar left with Lyanna. We still do not know what exactly Rhaegar what that conversation was like or what he was doing. He traveled around for a long seeming time before he met up with Lyanna in the riverlands.

He never anticipated, I think, that:

the Stark lord and his heir would travel themselves to the Mad King to ask for Rhaegar's punishment instead of some kind of messenger

Brandon Stark would be so brazen to ask for his death directly, triggering Aerys' paranoid violence and defensiveness

Instead of at least--he was going to face the "Mad King"--not calling out his heir to die if he was determined to go to KL with his father

Thus Rhaegar did not have that much reason to suspect that Aerys would even be able to viciously kill Brandon and Rickard, demand Ned's capture from the Arryns, thus triggering them all to call their banners in self-defense & begin the war, AND THEN call Elia back from Dragonstone.

Yes, his running away with Lyanna gave the Starks the motivation to find fault and seek "compensation" from Aerys. Just on the mechanical, practical sense of our knowledge Lyanna is the object on which these men (including Robert) rely for their political alliance.

B)

It seems like the real source of some eople's issue against Rhaegar is not his political decisions or times when he eschewed the political element for the more personal side but that he specifically cheated on Elia, the cheating alone. But his cheating--instead of plotting against him and Aerys and then endangering that plot for his romance with Lyanna--became the reason for his irresponsibility making way for evildoers to successfully carry out their goals. Thus, because he does not stick to his wife and stay close to her, he loses the sympathy of some readers.

If you hated him for just the cheating, valid, since (two things that may not be mutually exclusive, but we don't know for now):

Yes, cheating is wrong and yes Rhaegar cheating vs Elia or a woman cheating means something very different and more negative for the woman if we "reversed" it--His giving Lyanna the Crown at the tourney of Harrenhal while she was there and running off with her in any circumstance b/t her and Rhaegar does not look at all very good for Elia's reputation/her esteem in the eyes of the royal courts and other nobles, if nothing else, even if she vocally consented to any/all his extramarital affairs. Even with Elia being a Dornish noblewoman (Dornish people are less stigmatizing against illegitimate people and mistresses and extramarital sex), her being too ill/frail for sex, their marriage arranged, there being no real sign they were emotionally very very close, etc., her being physically frail while still having to passively and actively represent their kids/her own house in a nonDornish court where people would view her a bit differently, more pathetically, than they perhaps already did due to her health...It'd be harder for her to find and keep some respect in court, or a sense of power and control. Dwellordream writes this post about male vs female infidelity. However, we don't have proof of Elia feeling this way, but it is a valid conclusion to make bc of the circumstances of female vs male intimacies & allowances, the consequences towards their agency or political authority BUT this still doesn't place blame for the war nor her death solely on Rhaegar when it was Aerys' madness, the Stark father-brother, and the Lannisters who all created the setting for the war to happen in the first place, and Tywin, who gave the orders/allowed the Mountain to murder Rhaegar's family & rape Elia. It's crazy to blame the person who did not make the decisions or had final authority over others' actions. Though he

there is a possibility that if Elia did agree for Rhaegar to have lovers while she was frail in body, it's more because she wanted to survive by not getting pregnant again AS WELL AS her acceptance of extramarital lovers being more a male privilege in that nonDornish court--Rhaegar, with her out for the count, "inevitably" going to use that privilege and her not really having the "leverage" or incentive for him to reserve sex for her alone. However, like I said above, we don't have proof or substantial evidence of this, and I tend to go with the idea, that they had a fine marriage, she was too sick or lethargic to really play court either at KL or Dragonstone, and thus felt that she could not really gainsay or care about Rhaegar's romantic pursuits outside their marriage, lowering this in her list of priorities. (more below)

No, I don't think that the "cheating" (bc we simply don't know what was discussed here between Elia & Rhaegar) was moral, but neither do I think that Rhaelys happening & running away WAS THE ONLY nor even the PRIME REASON the war happened. It definitely was the catalyst for it, but the prime and direct cause? That's exaggeration and misplacement of responsibility for the sake of pushing forward nuclear-family monogamist principles for its own sake as if that were THE only right principle of behavior and family. The deaths of the two Starks by Aerys' were not solely Rhaegar's doing as they decided to approach Aerys in that manner despite knowing his craziness AND it is their deaths+their manner+Aerys demanding the lives of Ned & Robert that makes the second trigger for the war. It made Ned and Robert able to quickly use Jon Arryn to amass armies for self-defense. Rhaegar's decision to take Lyanna contradicted his plans for usurping the evil tyrant that is his father because it created a new problem--no one forced him to decide to be with Lyanna, but as one theory states, it's also possible he went to protect Lyanna (KotLT) from Aerys, who had been searching for the Knight since the Tourney at Harrenhal. Which makes the most sense to me.

And this is coming from a person who can't do any sort of ethical non-monogamy and gets nervous at the mere mention of such in relation to how I imagine relationships for myself. I would have rather Rhaegar gotten some message out to Elia or gotten into a conversation with her about this in the year before he flew away with Lyanna--and maybe he did, we don't even know!--and they come to an understanding that Elia, in her heart of hearts, was fine with but made her own set of boundaries for her own face.

The text never once explains or indicates how Elia herself feels about Rhaegar or Lyanna, but we have people claiming that she was emotionally wracked by this? Maybe, likely upset about her reputation or shocked, but we still don't know who this woman was by personality. With no PoV chapters, even fewer direct quotes from her marriage to Rhaegar to learning of his being with Lyanna, and anyone other than her own brother giving details about her facial expressions and body language when this and that event happened-> this is all speculation using on her heritage, her position, her health, and the arrangements of the marriage itself AND our own thoughts & knowledge about marriage, relationships, court life and women in it. One also cannot claim that she was something like Cersei was/would be, feeling totally humiliated, jilted of a perfect and glorious life, hating Rhaegar, etc. Nothing in the text gives strong enough evidence of what Elia thought. even her at the tourney, all we know for sure was that she was there. No details about her expression, what she said to Rhaegar after, nothing. We get more from Rhaegar and Lyanna than we do for her, bc Ned is a witness to Lyanna's final moments as Robert was for Rhaegar and we documentation of their personalities in more detail PLUS the constant winter blue rose symbolism.

But to say that someone maybe cheating on their spouse directly caused their death because they weren't there to protect them is myopic and if or any of all the factors out of Rhaegar's direct control, where the line between personal and political is in this event of Westerosi monarchy rides and it's a condition, and finally, Rhaegar's actions to take the throne for the sake of peace and preparing against the looming threat against pretty the entire world, of which we see Daenerys' visions and Jaime's memories prove.

C)

Then there is the idea that Elia is PoC and that the "white" Rhaegar was negligent of his PoC wife in favor of a white girl. Once again, their marriage was arranged. Rhaegar did not choose Elia, nor did she independently choose him. Her mother pushed for this marriage after the blunder of Tywin suggesting she marry Elia to Tyrion rather than Jaime.

The Dornish can be PoC (some are paler [paler skin, lighter hair and eyes] than others according to region), but they are NOT PoCs in the same way PoCs of real-life modern peoples are. At all. They are more like white Mediterraneans (Spanish and Italian), who northern EUs saw with distrust in real history. GRRM confirms such on his blog in answer to a question about it.

At the same time, in-world they have customs that make them "queer" enough to be Othered and resented for being outsiders "taking" positions that some in Daeron II's court thought were their court/office positions.

Thus AND still, we see no indication that Rhaegar dismissed Elia for her Dornishness.

That model of PoC female partner negligence depends on the circumstance of the couple coming from a background where they, at one point, freely and independently chose each other and worked to love each other romantically. Where is the evidence that Elia and Rhaegar saw each other as exclusive or had a romantic bond in a more personal sense?

In this world, aristocratic marriage doesn't always =/= a partnership and the marital sex used for producing heirs is not automatically indicative of an emotional bond or understanding of limits. Even with women not having the same ability to have open lovers in marriage as their husbands and any male [dwellordream], Elia herself is Dornish and there is the possibility that she would be personally more open to Rhaegar having a side lover than a nonDornish woman. But we simply do not know bc we barely know anything about her herself except in her younger years she had an active sense of humor and is more open/feels freer to tease or speak her mind (her interest in a lord I forget the name of before he farted).

Also, race is weird in ASoIaF, as it was and is in real life and always will be because race makes no rational sense.

First, both Andals and First Men first came from Essos just as Valyrians and Rhoynish people do and Essos is an analogue for the "Orient" (Asia) but somehow the religion of the Andals (analogue of Catholicism, which modern peoples associate the origins to Europe even though it actually originated in the Mid East). This does seem to try to mirror how there were Christian Africans. And the Summer Islanders are definitely African analouges by how the Westerosi (Daella and Cersei) mimic how medieval Europeans thought of actual Africans and their skin color/reactions to seeing them for the first time in their decidedly non-Westerosi attire. They also hold Pacific Islander cultural attributes and live on islands, physically isolated from the rest of the world except other, closer Islands. And instead of the First Men being like those indigenous groups in crossing a land bridge into a human/hominid land, they are the ones to war with hominids and perform acts of cultural extinction similar to Europeans vs indigenous folk.

This actually goes to establish that the Andals and FM are white analogs, but in the medieval ages and earlier, one's skin color didn't automatically equal that you were a completely different ethnic group. That was more about religion, customs, language, and who lives under what military leader. This is why Jewish people, for a long time, were considered people of their own "race" by eugenists and 15th-century Spanish blood purist authorities who wished to "cleanse" Spain of Muslim, ME, and African Moors and Jewish Europeans. And why, still today, Jewish people aren't considered white "enough" or white at all by some eugenicists, racists, or white people.

Skin-color-linked-to-location racism didn't really come in until people needed a more physical marker of inherent difference, and even then Jewish people were marked Other through religion.

While the Martells usually have darker features by being one of the "salty" Dornish that Daeron I categorized, there are Dornish people who are as pale as a Valyrian, have light-colored eyes like other Westerosi, etc. These are the "stony" Dornish of northern Dorne. The Martells are of the darker "salty" Dornish, and all Dornish have the Seven as their religion (unless we're talking about the Green blood), the same customs, and language (again not the Green blood), all under the Martells' authority. These are all exonyms Daeron I created when he attempted to conquer Dorne, which was at first successful but later was defeated and Dorne retained its independence.

There is no solid racial hierarchy in a consolidated, central state (yet?) and not any that mirrors the modern, real Western one.

Yes, there is xenophobia towards the Dornish from non-Dornish lords, esp in the marches. However, there is no apartheid, no legal nor economic segregation against Dornish or giving some Dornish subtler legal benefits to one people over the other people based on skin or else bc Dorne is still self-sustaining with its own armies. Specifically for there to be anti-Dornish feelings from every single noble, esp a Targ other than Aerys, at court. Unless we talk about Dornish migrants into Westeros, where of course we're going to see a lot more blatant discrimination ind and socially.

Some fraction of stormlanders, Reachmen, and Dornish all lived/live in the Dornish marches as they fought with each other for resources and in revenge trips. The Marches are a section of land:

of southern Westeros in the border region north of Dorne. The marches are predominantly in the southwestern stormlands and extend east to the Sea of Dorne, although much of the western marches are within the Reach People from the region are known as marchers, and they are ruled by marcher lords.

AND it is:

grassland, moors, and plains, with a portion of the Red Mountains to the east. The highlands of the marches have a cold climate

The "stony" Dornish AND the Dornish marchers of the Dornish marches tend to be lighter of skin and eyes like the Stormlanders, Reachmen, and Stomlander/Reachman marchers and they have the most in common with other Dornishmen -> and yet:

Marchers and Dornishmen each consider the other to be liars to be liars, and marchers consider the Dornish accent of the Common Tongue to be incomprehensible.

It's not accurate to say that the Martells or the Dornishmen are PoCs in the exact same way that African or Arabic people are PoCs in today's sociopolitical global community in light of all that. That would be like saying the Italians, Spanish, Welsh, Irish, Scots, are all PoCs just because they fought against Anglo-Saxons for independence and because the Anglo-Saxons Othered them for it. However, the Martells at least do seem to be able to be adapted as PoC bc of the skin color, which doesn't matter as much as the refusal to bar women from power?...confusion.

The Martells have been loyal (or really non-combative and have officially become a part of the 7 kingdoms) to Rhaegar's house ever since Daeron I's marriage and to this day seek revenge not against Daenerys or any Targ but Robert and especially Tywin for their betrayal and Elia/her kids' murders. Yes, Doran, Oberyn, and Lewyn Martell all look side at Rhaegar for leaving Elia at all for Lyanna, but the Martells have always been considered to be worthy persons to ally themselves with and to marry, with no feelings about skin or such from any Targ.

Well, maybe not Aerys II, who said that his granddaughter Rhaenys "smelled Dornish", but he was the one to seek out and approve of the marriage in the first place.

....All to say that Aerys' sentiment was not as endemic or indicative of actual systematic discrimination against Dornish peoples [discriminatory laws, economic exclusion, impoverishment of ethnic groups, none of this exists in Westeros specifically towards Dornish peoples]) NOR does Rhaegar ever express anti-Dornishness. That rather was a Baratheon or other stormlanders/marchers (and not much one else) in the time of Daeron II.

D)

Rather, Elia x Rhaegar are foils of the would be Robert x Lyanna and the Robert x Cersei pairings.

I think that we have a case of people trying to push forward a principle of relationships onto a grander political platform when the relationship is really only one bar of a ladder that's been constructed for a long long time. But they want to attack the cheating by making it the material of which the ladder is made of.

Did Rhaegar know of discontent against Aerys, including Tywin? Most likely, he wasn't incapable of observation and reasoning, but even then, how would he know that Tywin was so discontented as to want to or be close to stage a coup or turn his soldiers against the Targs in their moment of need? In the text, several times, it is expressed how much of a surprise it was, everyone expected the Lannister to back the Targs all the way through. We the readers may know, they don't. Pseudo-Dramatic irony.

And while Rhaegar knew there were probably enemies and who they were, he has no way of actually knowing that the Starks would think it wise to confront Aerys alone and head on, that Aerys would kill them in such humiliating and traumatic ways, that Tywin specifically as pretty much instantaneously ready to take them all on.

And his presence at KL would have helped at least marginally, but what if he had traveled at Aerys' own behest or gone on to other duties that took him far away from KL?

Wouldn't Tywin have also taken advantage then? Maybe it wouldn't have been the exact same way as what happened after Rhaegar and Lyanna dipped, but if the element Tywin wanted was Rhaegar's absence, there are ways other than Rhaegar's own decision to get him out of KL for a specific or inordinate amount of time and separate him from an army. It is said that Rhaegar's departure with Lyanna is the trigger and/or actual cause of the war, but again Tywin was likely always plotting against the Targs and biding his time, seeing what he could gain at every turn of the fighting. Rhaegar did make it easier by not being present, but is there true evidence that he would have won if he stayed at Dragonstone and followed Elia to KL? How would he have known there would have been a war triggered by the Aersy and the Starks in the exact way that it actually happened when it was very preventable on Brandon and Rickard Stark's end?

And concerning Aerys being a danger to Elia and her kids, was Aerys only ever dangerous to them once Tywin and Robert threatened him?! And even then, he left them alone, not abuse them. And how could he stop his king father from keeping Elia and their kids with him when it's obvious Aerys was determined to keep them close? What would readers have done, with a volatile, paranoid, but-in-the-highest-position-of-power directs that your family stays close to them during a war, what would readers have done? I wonder. As long as you don't rile or make Aerys/someone like him suspicious too much, your kids are safe.

Also, Aerys refused to take Elia and her kids to Dragonstone with Rhaella and his own son, Viserys, because he wanted to use her and those kids as hostages believing that the Dornish had betrayed him after the Battle of the Trident where the Targ army with the Dornish army lost. Aerys wasn't afraid of getting on Rhaella's "bad side" nor was wary of her because she literally had no power against him, no other persons who could help her, and was under his full authority. Earlier male Targ practice of denying/taking political authority or power away from their female relatives and long-storied Andal systematic patriarchal custom. Aerys didn't develop a solid hatred or suspicion of the Dornish Martells or Elia for him to actually try to hurt her to display his own authority. He wasn't in the mind of even getting the ire of the Martells, seeing as they were still allies, by mistreating Elia. and Lyanna as well, as she was betrothed already to Robert.

E)

Bringing Back an Accidentally Deleted Segment about the Custom of crowning the queen of Love and Beauty* (1/13/23)

Yes, if a knight is married/betrothed, he may crown his wife/betrothed. However, he's not required to do so. There are no official rules that he needs to; social, yes, official to the tourney or game, or by actual LAW by the monarch, absolutely not.

Knights have given the crown to those:

they just wanted to acknowledge as the leading lady of that tourney/gathering/the realm or to whom the tourney is honoring and thus gain favor with her...he could even amke requests through such means

the above but as a way of "agreeing" with tourney organizer and their house

through her, gains the favor of another prominent figure (this person could also be the one who organized and lead said tourney and could be her relative)

A hefty part of the reason for naming one's betrothed or wife or target of attraction Queen of LB is because marriages are political and about alliances and doing such is supposed to also publicly show that two families could/will join in some sort of alliance. It is to show the public the alliance between the two families/heads of houses. Marriage is a common way. So the prioritized reason that a scandal would happen if a knight were to name a woman (old enough not marry) TQoLaB would be he's transgressing such alliances or seemingly willingly putting his own families in danger, as his cheating would be seen as dishonoring not just his wife, but that BECAUSE the marriage is a political tool PLUS the treatment you give to the daughter of a house reflects on that house.

Examples of known queens of love & beauty before Lyanna in Westeros:

55 A.C: Daenerys, named by Simon Dondarrion -- Queen Alysanne & King Jaehaerys I's firstborn child, who died at 7-8 of the shivers

58 A.C.: Queen Alysanne, named by Ryam Redwyne of the Kingsguard (who couldn't marry bc of vows)

104 A.C.: Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen, 7 years old at the time, named by Ser Criston Cole (I don't think this was ever romantic mutually, nor that even if it was one-sided, Rhaenyr knew of Cole's feelings or at least their depth and how far he'd be willing to take them. But it's ope to interpretation.)

[unknown date] Queen Naerys, named by her brother Aemon the Dragonknight (could have been romantic depending on whether we can argue they were already or going to be romantic atp)

209 A.C.: Lord Ashford's daughter, 13 yrs old and would later have FIVE champions fight for her honor in the Ashford Meadow tourney to determine f she would keep that title

[unknown date] Princess Rhaella Targaryen (before she married Aerys), named by Bonifer Hasty -- this was romantic, and mutually so

281 A.C.: Lady Whent, who had been consistently the queen of Love and Beauty before the Harrenhal Tourney

The Chivalric Code, Courtly Love, and Medieval Noble Women

Numerous times, we learn that the knight of Westeros isn't too dissimilar form knights of real-world EU, nor is their code of conduct that dissimilar. Chivalry and courtly love, atp, also became deeply connecting and mutually affirming, the same for Westeros.

According to "The Knights’ Code of Chivalry", first recorded & described in the Song of Roland (1098-1100):

To fear God and maintain His Church

To serve the liege lord in valour and faith

To protect the weak and defenceless

To give succour to widows and orphans

To refrain from the wanton giving of offence

To live by honour and for glory.

To despise pecuniary reward

To fight for the welfare of all

To obey those placed in authority.

To guard the honour of fellow knights.

And courtly love:

The knight would be a humble servant to his lady, demonstrating loyalty, compliance, and selflessness. He would often perform acts of service and chivalry in her honor.

The knight would direct his love and devotion towards a noblewoman, whom he viewed as the embodiment of perfection and beauty. The lady was often portrayed as unattainable, inspiring, and motivating the knight.

Courtly love emphasized the knight’s ardent admiration and devotion towards the beloved. The knight pledged to serve and honor the special, often engaging in chivalrous deeds to prove his loyalty.

Courtly love exalted the beloved to perfection, often portraying them as an object of admiration and reverence. The special was seen as the epitome of beauty, virtue, and grace. This idealization of the beloved is an accurate representation of courtly love.

Courtly love, yes, was ideal for adults, but young girls were socialized to "matter" as "young ladies", and the attention towards their claimed/perceived "perfection" of femininity and grace can/did nominate them for being acknowledged as things like the TQoLaB:

Courtly love literature often idealized European women, presenting them as paragons of virtue, beauty, and wisdom. The concept of courtly love emphasized the beloved’s superiority regarding social rank and personal qualities. This portrayal challenged the negative stereotypes of women in medieval society, which often depicted them as subordinate or inferior. The elevation of women as objects of adoration and inspiration within courtly love narratives helped counteract these stereotypes and presented a more positive image of femininity. Courtly love created opportunities for women to exercise influence and agency within the confines of their societal roles. Women gained power over their suitors as objects of admiration and desire, shaping the relationship dynamics. The courtly love tradition often celebrated the beloved’s ability to inspire acts of bravery, poetry, and chivalry from their admirers. By occupying this influential role, women could exercise indirect authority and impact the behavior and values of the knights and troubadours who pursued them.

Now, why this was "elevating" for women, instead of being seen as bad at the time and moment? Before courtly love really took off and as people lived mostly in their castles, the dissemination of praise for the lady of the household/castle and wife of the lord was not expansive. Women were not as put in the public view nor understood of making subtle alliances, etc. Though chivalry & courtly romance do romanticize the noble lady she becomes a means to edify and reaffirm chivalric masculinity and patriarchal feudalism by making her the center/hub/patron of information...it also made her the principal and comparatively more central means for that, thus granted woman more authority and agency within the then framework. And girls are a part of that, being "trained" or just observing, but definitely still moving into those circles as they grow.

Elia

This isn't to say that Elia would have been a-okay with Rhaegar skipping past her--if they hadn't discussed it before, which no one can disprove, but since we can't prove it either...--but it is to say that Rhaegar did have a freer choice in who to name as TQoLaB. And this is where one theory comes into play, that Rhaegar POSSIBLY wished to make an alliance with the Starks and did it this way, acknowledging Lyanna's and unaware of how personally Robert would take that (yes, Robert had a choice and ability to not look at this as an "insult", that's machismo talking). We also have to remember that AWoIaF is written by Yandel, who obviously is trying to avoid crown censure or appeal to Robert and his later ruling sons--really the Lannisters giving power to him in the back scenes--and the Targs are a usurped dynasty....it would serve to keep to this particular narrative of RhaegarxLyanna being the MAIN reason why Robert went to war or how relations amongst several lords lead to a war-ready state before said war....when it certainly was not.

It's certainly better than making Elia out to be this victim of her husband's negligence OR abuse--a tired pattern in ASoIaf, if there. And again, I don't know if she became weak-willed seeing her humor and attitude before her marriage about some lord she was thinking of marrying before he either farted or burped.

It's possible that rather than being weak she was held back by the lethargy from being sick AND narrowly surviving 2 childbirths, so it would be "weak will" so much, again, as her prioritizing and/or her being okay with the affairs because of Dornishnesses. Until we get proof of otherwise, I prefer this reading to the totally helpless-to-cheating-victim story that also doesn't make sense anyway bc: 1) Rhaegar did what he could to protect her 2) cheating doesn't cause murders, murderers cause murders.

F)

Rhaegar seems to give Lyanna the crown of Love and Beauty not because he was in love with her right then & there (they literally had just met) or just because he was attracted to her.

Aerys sent him to capture the mysterious Knight of the Laughing Tree bc Aerys thought the knight was his enemy or a dangerous entity due to this disguise and the tree itself was laughing specifically at him. This is most likely how Rhaegar met Lyanna unofficially, him discovering her identity.

Some theorize that Rhaegar was not actually trying to hit on Lyanna through the crown so much as to offer her safety from Aerys. And this reasoning (according to the person) can go as far as why he took her to the Tower of Joy. I go with this theory.

As mentioned, Some say he wanted a stronger Baratheon-Stark alliance as his father has been growing suspicions of him and, again, he was plotting to make Aerys abdicate and he seems to have thought that giving the crown of LB would have complimented Robert and the Starks even with him being married to Elia and Lyanna betrothed because while it's expected that a knight gives that to his wife if he has one, he also can theoretically give it to any woman he wishes the favor of and dedicate his victory to (which could be political or personal, lines can be blurred). He already had the Martells as allies. However, the Stark father and brother and Robert were all outraged and that was easy to predict on Rhaegar's end, so it couldn't be this.

Some say that he admired her participation as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, had a vision or remembered one about winter roses being connected to her, that weirwood tree on the sigil, or her Starkness (old gods and weirwood association, the Starks are the Wards of the North and closest to that magic), and gave her the crown to tie themselves together in the future (or hint of one) he saw for whatever outcome he concluded. This could include the 1st theory about him wanting to protect her from Aerys but in my eyes, even that would be subordinate to my own estimation of why he did it.

I do not think Elia would be "okay" or indifferent towards his affair with Lyanna or that they had a kid together because that would present problems for how the Martells, Starks, and Lannisters all interact if Ned and Lyanna decided to make it known that this kid was Rhaegar's.

In any case, Rhaegar never annulled his marriage to Elia, so Jon/Aegon (if Lyanna's kid, which atp he def is) is definitely a bastard.

IF ELIA WAS CONCERNED OR ANGRY OR THREATENED BY RHAEGAR'S EXTERNAL ROMANCE(S): No, this kid would never have as much claim to the throne as Elia's kids, she wouldn't be upset with that specifically or how that could a legitimate kid with another noblewoman could endanger her kid. But Lyanna having her name and image smeared (her father and brothers and Robert are all very proud and virginity is a must for these knuckleheads' alliance) would present higher-risk complications for the Starks-to-Baratheons, and yes what happens with the war/rebellion.

[w/o considering Elia] Robert would never be able to look at Jon/Aegon and not think of Rhaegar, thus always exacerbating that relationship...if Robert had even allowed himself to not react immediately. It also would hurt the relationship between Ned and Robert bc Ned, no matter what would protect Lyanna, and had she lived, would most likely have sent her away and kept her location secret.

Over here thinking about how to some people the idea of "a man cheating on his good, devoted wife" is worst than anything that could ever happen.

I've seen way more people complain about Rheagar "cheating" on Elia than people complaining about Tywin or Gregor Clegane for literally murdering her. It baffles me.

[brienneevenstar]

jb rly not as problématique and degenerate as it could have been/antis think it is… jaime was 17 when he became kingslayer and if bri is supposed to be his mirror, she could’ve been 17, too, when they first met instead of 19

[iceywolf24]

It's interesting how we see in ADWD that Bran is dissapointed with what path Bloodraven is setting up for him as a Greenseer, he's let down by Brynden not being a super nice mentor and at the prospect of being stuck in that cave forever still yearning for Knighthood.

But even if Bran never fell he wouldn't have been satisfied being a Knight. For example if he got to be Barristan's squire like he was hoping he'd be dissapointed in his mentor when he fully learnt how Barristan and the other kingsguard stood by when Aerys did all the things he did.

Bran would've been discontented no matter what path he followed whether as Knight or Greenseer.

[visenyaism]

I haven’t rewatched S1 since absorbing HOTD discourse in recent weeks, and I feel like I’m forgetting something key about Cristin. A lot of people/posts seem to say that he’s a huge misogynist/bastion of the patriarchy/incel and this very well may be true but my main memory is him saying that Rhae is a c*nt once, which is bad ofc but not out of line with anything else rude that people say in-universe really (imo). I remember thinking that he seems like he really hates 1 woman in particular for reasons unique to him, but if this is true it doesn’t seem to make him any worse than anyone else in this world. HOWEVER, I only watched ep 8-10 once when they aired so may have missed key elements of his character.

i would argue the way he treated and talks about rhaenyra and alicent expose his wider belief on women like his madonna-whore complex the size of earth’s moon where you are made in the image of the maiden and must be spoken of with respect but the second you express sexuality or any other desire as a woman you become a manipulative spoiled cunty spider seductress. no middle ground. like his feelings about rhaenyra have little to no basis in who she is as a person she’s just the unfortunate vehicle in his mind for all of his insane thoughts about sex and gender and knighthood vows because they fucked once. also it’s the way that he violently enforces heteropatriarchy with his sword and body.

[ilynpilled]

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

A Storm of Swords - Jaime I

A Storm of Swords - Jaime III

A Storm of Swords - Jaime III

A Storm of Swords - Jaime IV

Jaime & Passive Suicidal Ideation

His statements and actions concerning the subject are framed as him not being afraid. But he is. He is afraid of what he has become, afraid of confronting himself, afraid of confronting the world, and he is afraid of having to live.

He should not be brave enough to die. He should be brave enough to live.

[ladystoneboobs]

[Sandor Clegane, to Beric Dondarrion:]"Say, make my horse a knight. He never shits in the hall and doesn't kick more than most, he deserves to be knighted. Unless you meant to steal him too." -Arya VII, aSoS

confirmation that stranger, the hound's vicious hellhorse, was classier than tywin lannister's warhorse, and that tywin's horse is especially unworthy of knighthood.

[wolf-saint]

Criston Cole // House of the Dragon "The White Cloak is a symbol of our purity, our fidelity,"

[g0lightly]

(image credits)

the hounds of harrenhal is a slow-burn brienne x sansa romance within a whimsical adventure with a good mix of found family + re-found blood family fluff. don’t get it twisted, this is still pretty plot heavy. since this is a rather expansive work, there are plenty of other eventual pairings such as gendry/arya and jon/satin (i hc jon snow as the most clueless bisexual to ever live and i love him) in addition to some surprises for later.

can you spot the jenny of oldstones and prince duncan of dragonflies reference(s) in the collage? in addition to rhyming with past asoiaf-verse love stories (dunk x rohanne, jenny x duncan, elissa farman x queen rhaena, lyanna x rhaegar), THOH draws on the persephone/hades abduction myth to subvert both the hound's offer to escape with sansa during the blackwater and littlefinger's "rescue" of sansa from king's landing.

for the purposes of the fic (curse you, abandoned five year gap), sansa's been aged up to robb's twin and two years have passed in-universe.

brienne becomes the newest wearer of the hound's helm after lem when jaime sacrifices himself to lady stoneheart following an escape plan gone very wrong. as the hound, brienne enters a tourney at the eyrie as a mystery knight to win some much needed coin to help the brotherhood without banners through winter. there, lady alayne arryn begs for help escaping a doomed marriage; brienne temporarily sets aside jaime's honor-saving mission for sansa to help her. petyr baelish announces that the hound has abducted sansa stark from the eyrie and advertises a large reward for her safe return. meanwhile, tyrion is trying to use his previous marriage to sansa to claim the vale for the mountain clans and daenerys. sansa hides out in the riverlands’ magical hollow hill with brienne and the brotherhood, falling in love as tensions within the realm build up to a second dance of the dragons amid a years-long winter. when love is the death of duty, what happens when your duty is to the one you love? this work will ultimately take place over the course of several years, weaving in new allies and foes for our star-crossed lovers as the realm moves from crisis to crisis. for generations to come, all of westeros will sing of harrenhal’s hounds and its witch queen. but life is not a song; in this story, it is far sweeter.

meta thoughts below the cut on why a future briensa is objectively one of the best ASOIAF ships in terms of thematic potential.

briensa has the best elements of the far more popular s*ns*n and br*ime ships except they're both teenagers and, crucially, brienne has never held sansa at knifepoint 🩵 no shade to either ship though bc the themes those relationships explore have sent brienne and sansa on journeys that have made them kind of perfect for each other; ie, the subversion of brienne being a protector to sansa rather than a threat is especially relevant if brienne is the next hound after lem!!! alexa play god bless the broken road

brienne is the hero sansa prayed for!!! sansa has learned to put more trust in disfigured people than "beautiful" people which means she can see brienne's beauty in a way she cannot!!! thematically it would be well supported yet subversive for sansa’s true knight and true love to be a jonquil darke type rather than a florian type 🥹 thematically i think the surest route to true love for sansa is a naerys + aemon situation so why not make it like alysanne and jonquil if they ✂️? it's not my fault grrm accidentally (?) wrote sansa as a closeted femme4butch!!!!

[amoratearte]

“As charming as he was hot-tempered, Prince Daemon had earned his knight’s spurs at six-and-ten, and had been given Dark Sister by the Old King himself in recognition of his prowess.”

Daemon Targaryen, the rogue prince, and Caraxes, the Blood Wyrm

[inwinterhell]

You know who two characters are that I really want to see each other again? Post-quiet-isle Sandor and no-hand Jaime.