#as you can tell I don't care for Greek myths very much OR the way they dominate culture

[hypodermicfroggy]

Iconoclast

A good tragedy begins, like so many With the shadow of an eagle Cast over an old sailor's home.

His faith had been lost ages ago Beaten out of him By father and fatherland both

Despite the scars of wars fought With enemies both home and abroad He tries to find peace anyway

For what can all of the finery And all the riches of Olympus compare To the simple joys of love and family?

And his wife is not of this land or its gods She is bronze-skinned, her features proud She is not one to be made to bow

To be so brazen, so content without the gods Of course there would be a punishment Because to err is human, but jealousy is divine

The daughter that grows within his wife is not his But neither of them know That she was conceived by a reflection

At least, not until the day When he would be brought back to memories Of bloody and burning battlefields

The bird that soars over his home now It casts no shadow, for it is a beast Of jewel-like feathers and brilliant flame

It screams, echoing them as they burn The hundreds of unblinking eyes in its tail A hateful accusation amidst the mocking sound

And the sailor is left with nothing But the ashes of his life and love Carried away on the rivers of Phlegethon

Any other man would have simply been broken Fallen to his knees and wept then and there Begged the gods for forgiveness

But the sailor, though he weeps He does not prostrate and debase himself She did not bow, and neither would he.

As many tragedies as there are People love the stories of heroes just as much Men who fight back against monsters and tyrants

And the sailor knew, since his own youth There has been a whole host of tyrannical monsters Ruling over this place for many years

He speaks not to oracles of what to do He does not raise an army He does not beseech gods of other lands

Instead he walks alone Fixated on his skyward destination Cloud-hidden Olympus, home of the gods

And in that home, drunk on their ambrosia and power They laugh with such confidence Amused by this one mortal's determination

Obstacles are put in his path Some natural, a great deal not Things to liven up the entertainment

Only one of their number does not laugh She is the eldest, the wisest, and closest to man And knows what they've brought on themselves

Is it her protection that lets him make his journey? Or is it his fury that pushes him on The way a storm, fittingly, pushes ship to shore?

The answer is unknown But beasts and barricades do not deter him Pain and punishment do not scare him away

Until at long last, the sailor is there Standing where no mortal has before In the hall of the gods

They could have cast him out easily But instead he is kept among them A fool to dance until they tire of him

And it is on that sacred mount That he meets the others Who have also been 'blessed' by the gods

The heroic Heracles Who never asked to be his father's son And lost his own family for it anyway

The youthful Ganymede Kept eternally beautiful by his immortality With eyes that betray his millenia of service

The wandering Callisto A maddened beast pacing the skies Forsaken by the ones she thought loved her

The sweet Europa, and outcast Io Neither can bear the feasts of sacred beef But for very different reasons

And so many others, children and consorts Playthings of the powerful Kept in beds and prisons both

There are those who claim That man was crafted In the image of their gods

This is meant to imply, of course That there is a trace of divinity Within all of us

But the sailor sees the true nature of the gods - When he is subject to their tumult, Their moods, and whims, and vices

He knows now, it is not a compliment He knows instead it is a damnation Of his kind and themselves

To be cast in their image Simply means being just as corrupt and contemptible As the most wretched of mankind is

= o = o = o = o = o = o =

When he walks off the mountain His hands are drenched in ichor And he is no longer alone

Behind him walk ten, a hundred, a thousand All those who the gods claimed as theirs Once again free to live without fear

And he whispers as he bares his gold-stained teeth Feathers caught between them Like a feral wildcat glutted from one of its hunts

'Long live the king of the gods For the king of the gods is dead.'

[dootznbootz]

allow yourself to be a little arrogant! if you were to claim that you know more than most people about a specific character from greek mythology, which character would it be?

*puts on the hat of arrogance so I can take it off right afterward*

Penelope 😅 😂

Like most of what we find of her is in the Odyssey, and even then, in my opinion, Homer I almost feel purposefully makes her a bit of an enigma. As we're in Odysseus' "POV" most of the time, and it's kind of a "She tricks the trickster, she tricks the narrator, she tricks the suitors, she tricks the reader, etc."

But even with this lil bit of "sneakiness" with her, we still get so many hints of her character and who she is and I adore it 🥹

Even then she has a lot of background lore that is just SOOOO much fun to play with. Her being of Naiad descent (whether 50-75% depending on what myths you go with), her many brothers and one sister, Her dad being a racer, her being cousins with Helen, Castor, Pollux, Clytemnestra Sparta itself, And that's just background lore!!!! There's so much to play with and that makes it so fun!

And well, like, I KNOW I'm the reason for a big boom of "Water Wife" lol 😅 Were there "Naiad Penelopes" before I came back on Tumblr? YES! :D Absolutely! I'm definitely NOT the first "Naiad Penelope" person!

But I DID create "Water Wife" AND I know I help cause more Water Pennys to be in the world >:3 Even if folks weren't directly inspired by me, they probably got it from someone else who was! :3 and I know my headcanons are often being used by others.

*The hat of arrogance droops a lil on my head so it becomes a lil bit of the sad arrogance hat*

I sometimes don't really like that I'm like, "the biggest, loudest Penelope fan", you know? ;~;

I know I'm not the only Penelope fan <3 I know there are others. Many lovely fans and creators :3 This isn't to negate them and the love and works. <3

But in fandom in general, In some ways, I...I'm a lil sad that like, a lot of the info that some people have on her in the fandom I know is because of me 😓 Like...Why did it take someone else to be a nerd about her for others to be a nerd about her, you know?

Like, it makes me happy that people are finally giving her love and seeing a lot more fics and headcanons with her as a focal point but like, I'm sad feeling like I started it in fandom (again, Penelope HAS been praised throughout the ages after all) recently. Why did it take ME to get others so nuts about her? Why do I see most folks caring about her simply because Odysseus and Telemachus do?

It's like, there are many Odysseus bloggers, there are a few Telemachus bloggers (Hi! :D ), but there are few, (if really many others) blogs that are like "most stuff I do is Penelope, Odysseus and others are there sometimes but It's mostly Penelope in here".

(granted I have not really...looked too much recently as it started making me sad to think about her not getting a lot of love) I am also very picky. I won't stand for cardboard Penelope who is only there to prop up her husband and/or thinks he "cheated" or have Odysseus cheat. Penelope, and women in general, are not props for their husbands/sons.)

As like, I got most of my info FROM the Odyssey AND just simply looking stuff up about her and Sparta and her family. And so I get this lil feeling of "...We both read the same book, why did it take me pointing out that Penelope is constantly wishing violence on the suitors for people to know that she does that? Why did you think that Penelope didn't come up with the archery contest when it explicitly says she did?"

And it's not like, even a feeling of "gatekeeping" or wanting to be like "You're a Penelope fan, huh? Well then tell me the names of all her possible brothers? >:(" It's more like a

Me: "I love Penelope!" Person:"YEs! I love Penelope too!" Me: "Yippee! Can you tell me about your Penelope? :D I love all Penelopes! I wanna talk about her!" Person: "Well, she's more quiet and reserved but that's her secret >:3 she strikes when you least expect it!" Me: "YES!!! That's so fun! I have her 'Likeminded' with Odysseus and she's silly, reckless, hotheaded just like he is :D Can you tell me some headcanons about her? What do you have for her childhood? I'm really excited!" Person: "Oh I don't have much for her childhood actually." Me: "That's okay! Do you wanna brainstorm together? Maybe bounce some ideas so you can get some down?" Person: "Oh no, that's okay. I've got all I need,as I really only have her when she meets Odysseus." Me: "o-oh okay.:'D "

As like...I dunno. When you love a character, you wanna meet others who also will ramble nonstop about them too, you know?

I sometimes feel like, idk, some folks are like "Think up Penelope headcanons for us! :D " especially as like... I've had that whole "Oh no, I've got all I need!" experience more than once :')

Ngl, like, part of the reason I go so "apeshit" about her is yeah, because I am, but also like, in hope more people will join me? Which yeah! People have! And that makes me happy!

But even then, I just... I DO like this joke, don't get me wrong, but with how whenever I fangirl about her, people are like, "Found Odysseus" and yippee! :D I think it's fun to be called Odysseus!

But also like...Why does it still tie back to him? Why is it still about Odysseus? (even my own tag of "Shot by Odysseus" is still technically about him! (I'm keeping it because I'm stupid but still)) Why aren't Odysseus fans called "Penelope" then? She loves him just as much, right?

I think there's more "OdyPen fans" than there are Penelope fans. Because most Penelope stuff HAS to do with Odysseus, and it's usually like, STILL centered around him. Which is really weird to me, as I don't know how you can be a big Odysseus fan without being an equally big Penelope fan. They are way way too intertwined to not be equally talked/headcanoned/etc. about in my opinion. They're like the same person imo in a way lol.

In my opinion, you cannot bring up Odysseus without mentioning Penelope, you cannot bring up Penelope without mentioning Odysseus.

It's literally like that in the Odyssey. (Explain that part of Homer's passage here.)

...So why are there so many fics with Odysseus doing so much without Penelope, and yet, very few Penelope fics that don't have much of anything to do with Odysseus?

*takes off hat of arrogance*

And like...I'm a goober just like every other fan, you know? I'm not some "mastermind". All my "good" headcanons are simply loving her and thinking about her often. It's...not hard to love a character. I just rotate her around a lot. :3

[nysus-temple]

Dionysus' lesser-known myths [or perhaps you do know them, but i will tell you about them anyway]

Some of these myths have already been shown in my blog, but i decided to bring some of them up again in a more elaborated way, plus some new too. Perhaps you've heard of them, perhaps you haven't, but i can tell you i haven't seen them much around here.

And my job isn't reading your minds, it's about writting essays, so here we go.

1. Ampelos (Αμπελος):

According to Nonnus of Panopolis, Ampelos was a satyr (tho not many art represents him as such) who loved Dionysus, and was loved by him as well. Not much of a surprise, since we do know many gods had male lovers.

The problem is that, we're still talking about a satyr, we know how those guys are and act. According to Nonnus, Ampelos was riding a bull while mocking Selene, angrily, she sent a gadfly to sting the bull. The bull ran and threw Ampelos all over the place. Nonnus describes it as a very gore-like death.

Dionysus, upset, ended up turning Ampelos' corpse into a grape vine, and from there, he created wine with his blood... THANKFULY, it was the blood.

Roman mosaic with Ampelos and Bacchus.

2. Midas (Μίδας):

"But Nysus, everybody knows Midas" yes yes, but do you KNOW the actual Greek myths? Or do you know the later, VERY later-on version that appears in Wikipedia? Midas never turned his daughter into gold in the folklore, for example.

Midas was a foreign king who married a greek woman, he was the king of Phrygia, and according to Pausanias, he had a daughter named Zoe. I have absolutely nothing about her except this.

Anyways, going to the important part: Silenus, a companion of Dionysus who used to be one of his foster fathers, got lost while he was... Kind of drunk ( come on, Dionysus can't keep an eye on everyone 24/7 ). Some peasants found him and took him to King Midas, who, as a very loyal follower of Dionysus, recognized Silenus and took care of him. When Dionysus arrived in order to take him back, he thanked Midas and said he would give him in return anything that he wished for... And here it comes: Midas wished to be able to turn everything that he touched to gold, and Dionysus agreed, even though he felt sorry he hadn't thought of it twice.

Midas was happy turning stuff into gold, obviously. But when he touched food and it turned into gold as well and he was unable to eat, he returned to Dionysus asking him to turn it back to normal.

Surprisingly, Dionysus didn't say "no" or "live with the consequences"; he told him to wash himself in the river Pactolus, and, good enough, the gold thingy dissappeared.

I don't have this myth fully narrated by a Greek, instead, from a latin author. The good thing tho, thanks to Herodotus and Pausanias, i know it's realiable.

Monument dedicated to Midas, in the old Prhygia ( now part of Turkey )

3. The Minyades (Μινυάδες):

According to Plutarch, king Minyas had three daughters ( whose names i honestly don't know, they appear in Ovid's Metamorphosis ). He tells that Dionysus appeared in the form of a maiden to invite them to the Dionysian Mysteries, since the rest of the women had already gone there. And they declined, politely, but still declined. This is one of those moments in which we see Dionysus' weak points, no justified anger. They neglected the cult, but had nothing against it anyways.

Still, for him, that wasn't enough.

He drove them mad, like very. Something that for Plutarch was even worse than death, apparently. They even killed their own children and ate them (yikes) dismembering them like Dionysus was once dismembered. The sisters were wandering around the mountains, without Dionysus caring at all.

Until finally, Hermes took pity on them, and turned them into bats, freeing them from the madness.

One of the Minyades showing the dismembered body of her son - Étienne-Barthélémy Garnier

4. Zeus' lighting bolts

This one is short, so i'll get to the point.

We all know what Nonnus' was up to when writing about Dionysus. He said in his work that Zeus recognized him (when being Zagreus) as his heir. Since when he was still a little kid, he was able to climb to his throne and to hold Zeus' lightning bolts. Of course, then the very well-known myth of Hera calling the titants to dismember Dionysus arrives here, since she wanted no heir to the throne.

Things happen, you know.

5. Lykurgos (Λυκοῦργος):

Remember when i talked about this guy in the anger essay? Wellp, here he is again, it's the same, but i'll elaborate on him a bit more.

He was a thracian king, and when he heard that Dionysus was going to Thracia, he ordered to trap all of his female followers in a prison.

Yes, only the women. I guess no men followed Dionysus in Thracia during his reign, not like i can ask him about it.

OF COURSE Pentheus 2.0 would imprison the FOLLOWERS of the god of MADNESS. Of course...

Dionysus got angry ( what a surprise ) and sent a drought towards Thracia + making Lykurgos go mad. It's not Dionysus if he doesn't punish you by making you go mad.

He then proceed to tell the people that the only way to stop that punishment was by killing Lykurgos, and, well, they did. They all killed him, and were freed from the punishment.

Dionysus then stopped the drought, he kept his word, indeed.

Lykurgos attacking his own wife after being induced into madness

6. The punishment of the titans

You think they got away? No, the fuck, of course they didn't.

After Zeus' found out what had happened to Dionysus (Zagreus), he imprisoned them in Tartatus, which caused Gaia to be all sad again, since many of her children had already been imprisoned there. What she did was, as scary as Gaia has always been, burning down everything she could.

The only way Zeus could take pity on her in order to stop that, was by sending a flood.

7. Coresus (Κόρησος):

Callirhoe was a Calydonian woman who scorned Coresus, a priest of Dionysus, who threatened to afflict all the women of Calydon with insanity as the good Dionysus priest he was.

The way to stop this was with a sacrifice, to kill the woman who scorned him. Coresus was ordered to sacrifice her, but he killed himself instead since apparently, he was in love with her and couldn't do it.

Callirhoe was overcome with remorse, and cut her throat at a spring that later received her name.

As always.

Coresus sacrificing himself to save Callirhoe - Jean-Honoré Fragonard

8. The Frogs (Βάτραχοι):

At this point, this isn't lesser-known anymore, and i'm not the biggest fan of Aristophanes' work (i love Euripides way too much, oops) but i'll still summarize what Dionysus has to do with this play.

Dionysus, as the god of theatre he is, wanted to bring back to life one of the great tragedy authors. And he descends to Hades for that, it's a way to mock his connection with it, this is still a comedy.

And after a poetry slam, Aeschylus is chosen in preference to Euripides. Smh, fucking Aristophanes, way to put your preferences.

9. Orpheus' death:

I'm not gonna elaborate on this one THAT much, since i wanna save it for the Apollo & Dionysus essay i have unfinished, which was the second most voted one and it might take more time to finish it.

In any case, do you know all these modern retellings in which they paint Dionysus as the "chill, calm, who only wants to party" dude? And Apollo as the "feral, envious, angry" dude? Well, ya'll are wrong...

Dionysus killed Orpheus due to his jealousy of Apollo's worship. I'm leaving you with this sentence, wait for the other essay to know why Dionysus and Apollo are so complex in terms of feelings. Or, at least, i will try to elaborate on it.

Apollo welcoming Dionysus to the sanctuary of Delphi, which they shared.

10. Dionysus IS physically incapable of getting drunk, live with it:

SHOCK i know. So if i see any of ya'll saying he's drunk 24/7, you better have your testament written.

NONNUS OF PANOPOLIS. DIONYSIACA. LITERAL TEXT: "Only to Dionysus gave Rhea the amethyst that saves the drinker from the chains of madness."

Yes, obviously going for scientifict facts, this doesn't work. It was believed in this world that the amethyst would prevent people from getting drunk. But this is mythology, Dionysus is a god, he can't get drunk even if he wanted to. And it's not like he should, he needs to keep an eye on his followers 24/7. Or do we want to remember what happened to Silenus?

Dude, how the hell do i have to tell you all, that in all text in which people were drinking for honoring Dionysus, they always stopped saying "he wouldn't like to see us this way" HE DOESN'T WANT YA'LL DO GET DRUNK. THAT'S NOT HOW HIS MADNESS WORKED

No. The women in the Bacchae are not ✨girlboss slaaaaay✨ they were feral women. The madness Dionysus used to punish Pentheus and the Theban women is NOT something you should idealize. Euripides didn't want ya'll to call him an icon because "omg the Bacchae is so progresive" GUYS... NO. IT'S NOT ABOUT THAT. It's about showing Dionysus' wrath. Of showing why like with any other god, he's feared.

The Greek gods are not your free playground OC's. You can't invent their sexualities or gender identities just for yourself. They're important figures of a culture and country that still lives. If you want an icon to feel identify with, create one. But don't go around there saying Dionysus is genderfluid JUST because you like seeing him young. No.

I know, personally, genderfluid people, and all of them agree THIS is wrong. I already had the whole pronouns drama with Dionysus, don't start over again with this. Please.

* AHEM * In any case... Hope you enjoyed !

I needed to work A LOT for this essay, since most of these myths weren't listed with sources. Whenever you wanna write a guide about folkore or anything similar, please, list your sources ! i don't want anyone else to go through the pain of needing to research though the catacombs of information JUST to confirm one sentence. Because i went trhough that, there's a reason why i've been researching about Dionysus for more than three years already and i still don't have everything. Thanks for your support and essay requests as always, it makes me INCREDIBLY happy to see so many of you willing to learn about a figure that has been so underappreciated and reduced into nothing like Dionysus, and who is still being misinterpreted to this day.

As always, reblogs would be very appreciated, it's the way people can find my blog for something else than copypaste incorrect quotes, and i always appreciate that kind of support. Of course i do this "por amor al arte" as i would say in Spanish, but still takes time and effort and i'm just a university student. I still will need A LOT of time to be able to work into something more accesible to everyone for the Greek folklore.

For now, this small Tumblr pieces is what i can give. But as always, thank you and χαίρε Διόνυσον 🍇

[esta-elavaris]

What is your novel about?? Or if you don’t want to give too much away- does it have a genre or vibe? I’m so curious ahah 💞

So I'm superstitious and I don't get into like, synposes of the novel when people ask about it, BUT I'm more than happy to say what I can! I'm thrilled when folk are interested in it, even when I can't say a whole lot.

I have been kind of like, test-running different aspects of it in my fics just to see how those aspects will be received - so I'd say that if you like Catch the Wind, Here, Where Fire Grows, and Little By Little, odds are you'll vibe with the novel. It features pirates, with a lot of Viking influences mixed in there, there's a magic system and there are deities that are like, actual characters in the story rather than just vague concepts. I also play around a lot with the concept of fate, how fate can be linked to self-fulfilling prophecy and how avoiding it sometimes is what makes it happen (my Ancient Greek Tragedy course at uni still lives in my mind rent-free), what makes someone a god in comparison to just a very powerful being (and which, if either, should be worshipped), and how different cultures have different concepts of history, and the line between history and myth. There's also a theme of magic versus technology, the way some atheists look down their noses at believers, and some strong Tolkien inspiration with one specific race.

I feel like my own paganism really shines through, too, because a lot of the magic in it has ties back to the sort of practises you see in the real world - crystals and sigils and the like, along with how current-day pagans worship their gods. But I'm very careful not to get preachy about it - hence the gods being actual characters, and imperfect ones at that.

It's very exciting to me, it's the sort of universe I could see myself writing in for the rest of my life (and happily would!) because there are just so many stories to tell within it.

It's also uhhhh stupidly fucking long. Which is the hurdle I'm facing right now, but it's fine. Worst, worst case scenario if no agents want it after a couple of years of querying, I'll self-publish it or post it on patreon or something. It will be out there in one form or another.

[taking-thyme]

My experiences with my Deities so far

Apollo: I’ve found that Apollo just likes to show up and sit with you places. It’s his way of checking in on you. One of my friends actually did a tarot and pendulum reading for me and Apollo apparently recognized me as one of his children which, like, holy shit dude. But seriously, Apollo is super loving. He’s always just kind of around, either because you feel his energy or you see crows and ravens basically everywhere. He also has a very protective energy, I feel like he would get super mad if any of his devotees are mistreated, which definitely fits with his myths. It’s super cliché but the only way to describe how you feel with connecting with him is sunny. My body feels a lot lighter and almost like it’s glowing, and I feel more at peace. This applies to most deities, but you really get the sense with Apollo that he wants you to feel good and he’ll do whatever he can to make that happen. Also he’s fuckin gorgeous. And he really likes apples for offerings, he always asks for them. 

Artemis: Artemis has such a cool energy. I feel like she’s that badass older sister that leans against walls and gives really damn good advice. When I connect with Artemis I just feel way cooler than before, like I can take on anything. Like I could fight any man and win. But don’t get me wrong, she definitely has a softer side. She’s adamant about me taking care of myself and doesn’t want anything bad to happen to me. I deal with a lot of terrible anxiety, and she’s always super reassuring that nothing will happen to me and if it does, she will smite something. Artemis gives me confidence. I also feel really called to help wildlife when I connect with her, which is fitting of course. She has some of the most protective energy out of all my deities - they all love and protect me of course, but Artemis is the most adamant about it. Probably because she knows that helps with my anxiety. I don’t know man, she’s just so badass and supportive and reassuring. She also likes apples. I also get the vibes that the Greek Gods can be a little more vague with their answers than the Norse or Celtic pantheons, but not in a bad way, just in a “you need to figure this out yourself” way, which I can respect and appreciate. 

Cernunnos: Has an incredibly wise and ancient energy. I've found he's very clear with what he wants during tarot readings, he will tell you exactly what you need to work on and do. Cernunnos is also very adamant about self care, probably because I don't do it enough, oops. He has this rule where, if you take something from the earth, you must give something back. Like when you pluck a flower, say thank you or water the ground where it stood. It takes a bit to get into the swing of doing that but you'll have such a better relationship with the land once you do. Whenever I connect with him I feel so much calmer and level-headed than usual. He's also very insistent that I meditate more often. 

(He wanted me to use this picture lmao I love him)

Thor: 100% the deity I feel most casual with. Every time I make an offering or connect with him, I immediately feel so much more chill and laid back. We make jokes with each other a lot. Also he's the biggest hype man of my entire life. If there's a major life event going on, he will send a storm or some thunder to let you know he's with you. At my High School graduation there was a lightning storm in the distance and on my last day of school he sent me a truly apocalyptic looking storm to show his support. Also, and I don’t know if this is just me, but Thor is also a massive flirt. He will compliment you and likes to be flattered right back. That seems to be a running trend with the Norse gods, they like being flattered. But they, and especially Thor, absolutely return the favor.

[kidspawn]

this isn’t meant to be mean or anything but. “tag pjo spoilers” the books have been out for 18 years??? obviously i know some people are only just getting introduced to pjo but if they look up pjo on ANY socmed platform, there’s going to be posts dating back years full of spoilers? i think it’s common sense not to look into the tags of show you don’t want spoiled.

When I refer to tagging PJO spoilers, I'm referring to common etiquette for new posts when an adaptation is being made. While the books have been out for years, the tv show has not. There are some spoilers that will genuinely ruin the experience for people watching the show for the first time - people who, for whatever reason they chose, may decide NOT to read the books. I'm referring to tagging relevant spoilers (which I'll list some examples below) not just... everything. I'm not saying go through all our old posts and tag everything, but I am saying to think about tagging newer content!

People will watch the show on its own. It is a piece of media that will stand alone. Some may decide to read the books and it's not fair for them to go into it with spoilers. If they want to dip into the tag to discuss a new episode, I'd hope they wouldn't be bombarded with spoilers from recent posts.

People going into fandom for the first time have every right to experience the story spoiler-free for the first time, and while lifelong fans like us have no obligation to, I'd hope we would all have the compassion to cultivate a positive experience for PJO newcomers! We have the ability to cultivate a safe and wonderful place to enjoy this world! Why should we not?

If they want to go into the Percy Jackson and the Olympians tag and talk about the episodes, where they think the plot will go - why should they not have that right? Why should book readers gatekeep the fandom and prevent them enjoying this show? If they don't want to blacklist tagged spoilers or willing engage in posts marked with spoilers, that's one thing, but it's common etiquette to acknowledge that, in this environment, we can take a simple step and tag spoilers. It doesn't really take very long.

Hopefully, if they feel this is an accepting and warm fanbase, they'll decide to read the books. If not, who cares? They still deserve to read the story. The idea of "the books have been out long enough!!" is, frankly, a little "holier-than-thou" and condescending. It implies that you're only a real fan if you've read the book prior - which just isn't true!

There are some elements of the story that we can tease online (Dr. Kane, Blackjack, any Nico or Bianca reference, etc.) but there's a lot that forms the fabric of the story Rick Riordan and the team behind this show is trying to tell.

Some examples of spoilers I mean when I say to censor/tag: (You'll notice this is just a list of spoilers that would ruin the story to know ahead of time)

Luke betraying Percy (this one is pretty obvious to tag)

Luke's ultimate fate (I've seen this one get spoilers)

Kronos being the final villain (that's a well-written mystery in the books, unless you're like me and obsessed with greek myth)

Ares being a villain fake-out

Hades being a villain fake-out

Tyson being a cyclops and Percy's brother

Bianca Di Angelo. Specifically, her decision to join the hunters and her literal death.

Zoë's death. Zoë's backstory.

Most things Nico related. His villain fake-out in the fourth book, especially. That was so well written in the books. I ADORE Nico, he's my first little guy. He's so cool, and I want to see people fall in love with his arc in the same way we all got to!

Hate to say it, Nico is a walking spoiler lol.

Thalia coming back!! That was such a fun twist!

Pretty much the entire plot of the last book. I hate to say it, but that book is so well-written. There's so much foreshadowing. So much care put into crafting the story to erupt into what is one of the BEST books in the riordanverse, imo.

Notice I'm not saying anything too obvious - like certain character relationships (Percabeth is fair game, its iconic!) or even letting people know where the book differs. I'm talking about major plot elements. Major plot spoilers. If your friend was reading the books for the first time, what would you refrain from telling them?

Of course, there's no obligation to tag or censor your spoilers. I'm not telling anyone to do that. It's a gentle suggestion. I'm going to tag spoilers. That's just my choice, and i hope other people do but I'm not going to enforce it or start fights about it.

I do understand that if people want to avoid spoilers completely, they should stay away from main fandom spaces, but there are certain aspects of fandom that should be safe - like, somewhere online to gush about the show between seasons!

To reiterate: I'm not upset when people aren't tagging spoilers, I just think it'd be nice! Percy Jackson is one of the best fandoms I've been involved in! I hope other people experience that warmth and joy! One way to do that is by helping craft a courteous and spoiler-free experience.

[fluffykitteninabox]

Hey... I'm curious about something. How do you and your family treat Greek mythology and superstitions? 👀

Do you believe in them to a degree? If there were Gods and Goddesses, why wasn't it a full religion?

I hope this isn't rude. I'm more than happy to talk about mine.

Don't worry, it's not rude

Sorry, this took so long, it's a surprisingly hard question to answer because I needed to think about how I view Greek mythology vs how the rest of the world sees it and this accidentally turned into a rant 😅

also some of my opinions might be considered controversial but... I don't care! lol I guess the 5 Greek followers I have can unfollow me if they don't like this or whatever 😂

Anyway have some sparkles because this is kind of long oops ✨✨✨

WARNING: me trashing on Americans

The Greek pantheon was like any other religion in ancient times, but it's not really treated like one anymore. The main religion of Greece now is Orthodox Christianity, and the largest religious minorities are Islam and Catholicism. My parents and I are atheists. I'm certain there's still people that practise it, but they would probably be seen as foolish by the general public.

We are taught part of our mythology in school at the age of 8 (unless they changed it idk 😂). It isn't taught like a religion, but more like fairytales.

The way it's taught is very lacking in my opinion. Instead of explaining for example how sexism influenced the creation of these myths and what a giant asshole Zeus was, we are just told Hera was "the jealous type" and that's why she's the antagonist in most of the stories she appears in.

Achilles and Patroclus were definitely gay, but no one ever talks about it. According to our school books, they were just really close friends! In fact, this specific topic is avoided so much that I first heard about it from foreigners on the internet! A lot of people deny this, even saying that "friendship was just different back then, it was deeper"!! I'm sorry sir, I don't think I'd ever ask to be buried with the ashes of my just a friend™ no matter how close we were! Technically speaking there's nothing explicit in the original text, but Aeschylus, Phaedrus, Plato and Alexander the Great all read it as a romantic relationship and the first 3 even had their own headcanons about it, so that's enough for me!

I'm guessing a lot of these depend on what type of teacher each person has, and it's been a long time since I was 8, so teachers might be more open about it now, but if you just read the 3rd year history (mythology) school book this is the content you'll get. I don't think withholding this information is done because it's being taught to kids, it's not a "they're 8, so they wouldn't understand sexism". That would be a silly argument considering our mythology is filled with incest, rape and gore, which our school books very openly mention throughout. They are just trying to avoid it.

From 9 and up, we are taught more actual history than mythology. We focus on real historical figures and events, so most of the less know myths get forgotten. At 13-15 we're taught the Odyssey and the Iliad (by Homer), and Helen (by Euripides). Yes, that is in fact the order that they teach us these 🙃!! Supposedly it goes from easier text to harder text for each year, but I personally think that's stupid because the story is completely backwards now, and we get it translated to modern Greek anyway, so what's the point of telling it backwards???? It's not convenient, it's confusing! Anyway, these are taught in a similar way to literature. We analyse the text and characters and all that.

Ages 16-18, I honestly have deleted most of these from my brain tbh 😂. OK, not exactly, the first and third year are more historical texts and philosophy. The second year we do another play, Antigone (by Sophocles). Actually wait, the first one was about a war and there was a ton of political intrigue in there, and it was super interesting. The third one was more about philosophy.

The plays aren't exactly the same as mythology, it's more like fanfiction about historical figures and gods! I mentioned them because..... I just like them lol

I kind of deviated a lot from what you actually asked me and answered more generally. For me and my parents specifically, religion isn't really something we participate in. My grandma is very religious though. She used to go to church every Sunday before covid. Now she watches it from the TV (there's a specific Christian chanel that broadcasts church service from different parts of the country). I personally hate how brainwashed some people are by Christianity (including my grandma). Thankfully, we haven't reached American levels of religious fanaticism.

Mythology isn't really something that's on our minds often. My grandma didn't go to school, so I doubt she knows much about it. My parents probably learnt some of it. Outside of the school environment, ancient Greek mythology isn't really a topic most people think about (maybe I think about it more than the average Greek person, because I'm an art student and a bit of a history nerd). But even then, I've seen more about Greek mythology from people who treat it like a fandom on the internet and make AUs with their characters and stuff like that. Now, I know I made jokes earlier about fanfiction and headcanons, so this is probably going to sound very hypocritical of me...

However, Homer's poems and other ancient Greek plays are not the same as myths. They're not treated the same. They are theatrical performances based on historical events/figures. I don't care much about people's modern interpretations of these, because they are fictional stories. Now, myths are also fictional, I even compared them to fairytales at the start. But they were still based on ancient people's religious beliefs. People practised it as a religion, they had rituals and traditions, some of which are still done today (though they have changed and evolved over time). The myths were more like the framework for what the Gods represented in their lives. Kind of like how most Christians don't believe the events in the Bible literally happened.

I'm fine with people taking inspiration from a myth and doing a modern retelling as long as they're respectful. I've seen some modern, more feminist retellings of Medusa that I personally really liked. I've even thought of making my own version of Arachne (=spider) but without the religious propaganda and classist undertones.

What I'm not ok with, is people wearing bedsheets to "dress up as Greek"! I'm sure you can probably relate to this because Americans do this with a ton of cultures. If you want to "dress up as Greek", do this:

I'll respect you more!!

(this is obviously a joke, don't do this either, you'll get laughed at. This dude is part of a parody show)

And secondly, I'm not ok with people taking mythology and twisting it into something completely unrecognisable that doesn't even seem like it's from the culture it was based on. Basically, Americans shouldn't be allowed to make movies about other people's cultures!!! Ok, I'm exaggerating, but if you're going to do something based on mythology/religion of some other culture, you need to do proper research and be as respectful as possible.

Good example: Dreamworks-Prince of Egypt, 1998

Even as an atheist who was only taught religion in school, I can tell this is a very respectful adaptation. The team that made this met with religious experts to make sure they got it right.

Bad example: Disney-Hercules, 1997

This is the most American a Greek myth has ever been! It's more like Superman than Heracles. Don't do whatever the fuck Disney did here guys. I'm actually planning on tearing this film apart in a future review, so I'm not going to say anything else right now.

I'm not saying don't make changes. Greek mythology is very "fluid" in a way. Every myth has multiple versions, with minor or major differences between them. Changes are fine, even making a parody is fine. But I think the end result shouldn't just resemble its inspiration on a superficial level. It's not enough to have your characters wear a tunic and sandals and have them say Zeus instead of God every couple of sentences. The important part is why a particular myth exists. What is the original message? What does the story/character represent? That needs to be kept the same, otherwise the adaptation won't be an adaptation anymore. It will be a different story disguised as an adaptation. At that point, you should just make an original story.

Alright last thing and then I'm done talking I swear 😂!

You also asked about superstitions.

Here's a small list:

if you spill coffee it's good luck

if your right palm is itchy, you'll get money, but if your left palm is itchy, you'll give money. The first one is usually interpreted as like: "you'll find coins on the street or win one of those scratch lottery tickets". The second one is like: "a sign that the electricity bill is coming, or you need to pay rent". (my dad believes this one)

if you're born on Saturday, it means you're lucky (I was born on a Tuesday 😔)

evil eye: a curse when someone "glares" at you/has bad intentions. If you have blue eyes you're immune to this, otherwise you can wear an evil eye charm. (this comes from the Middle East, I think. You might know about this, because there's a ton of different countries that believe it. I personally just like the charms)

when you visit a house for the first time, you need to enter with your right foot first for good luck. If you enter with your left, it's like wishing bad luck for the people who live there. This is also done for the first person to visit the house on New Year's Day.

if you enter a place from one door you can't leave from another door, you have to use the same one. (supposedly it ruins your matchmaking if you do that)

if you're talking with someone, and you say something simultaneously, you say "touch red" and then you need to touch something red before you continue speaking. (I remember doing this a lot as a kid)

if you talk about something bad happening hypothetically, you knock on wood or say the phrase "knock on wood", so it doesn't happen

if you get served the last drop of wine, you get bitches 😎!!

There are a lot of traditions that are really old that a lot of people still follow, even if they're not religious or the tradition comes from a different religion. I'll tell you one of my favourites that's relevant right now. Every first of March people in a lot of Balkan countries (Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, North Macedonia and others) wear a bracelet made from intertwined red and white threads. This is worn for the whole month of March, and it is supposed to protect you from getting burnt by the sun. At the end of the month, we take them off and leave them for swallow birds to use in their nests. Swallows are believed to bring spring.

hand reveal lol:

If you read this far, you are a legend.

It's your turn now. How do you and/or your family view Philippine mythology? What about the people in general? And also, do you have any traditions for spring?

[alatismeni-theitsa]

https://at.tumblr.com/gothhabiba/i-wonder-how-many-of-the-people-beginning/693hipjn05t1

isn't the situation basically the same here?

Kind of but also not exactly I think. I personally resort to arguments like "I don’t know how to explain to you that Dante’s Inferno is not the same as your 100k word slowburn enemies-to-lovers Destiel pornographic coffeeshop AU" because these types of people think so simplistically that they are not going to grasp it otherwise.

I mean, they can't even separate the context of fanfiction from the context of a culture organically developing its traditional stories imbued with local spirit. When they equate the two, they clearly haven't researched how cultures value ancient stories and why they keep them. And I don't owe them a full education on the matter, since the simple thought of another culture being different from theirs never crossed their mind. So, cue the above argument.

I support and value fanfiction, and I very much consider it literature. Good and valuable literature. Masterpieces have been written on fanfiction sites. And sure, fanfic can show us a lot about the modern age. For example... it can tell us that many modern westerners writing Greek myth fanfiction don't give a shit about Greek culture and the gods and other heritage figures, and how this notion spread to other countries through uscentrism 🤷 Just because it can be researched, it doesn't mean the results will always be noble and wholesome.

I also think that saying Greek ancient works and stories are "a bunch of classics written by old white men and canonised by other old white men" has misogynistic undertones because it doesn't acknowledge the big role of women in oral storytelling. Like, c'mon hasn't your grandma ever told you a local fairytale or the story of a saint from her community??

It isn't the whiteness or the maleness that makes these stories valid. Like... for real?? That's such a USian take. How tf cares. We value them because it's our damn heritage, because, no matter what, that's all we have from our ancestors! People, just swift your point of view, okay? Not everything must be understood on your own terms. Sometimes... foreign people exist. If you can't see their way, if you can't accept their values, how tf you are gonna write something about ancient foreigners and the beings they revered the most???

Aaaanyway, my point is, I am not on any of the sides completely. I just want people to get some context when I use that argument.

Ok guys, you won. In 2023 the Mahabharata has the same cultural value as Destiel Coffeeshop AU. Case closed. 🎇🎇🎇🎇

[kebriones]

are you against mythology retellings? if yes, would you mind telling me why? (in my opinion they are harmless and each one of them adds something new to the ‘source material’) just asking since i’ve seen a lot of classicists harassing people just minding their business and having fun 💀

-Absolutely not at all! I came very near to spending all my savings to go watch hadestown a couple years back, and at the very beginning I even enjoyed lore olympous (the story lost me at some point).

-Do I think they're harmless? No story is harmless and all of them are. It depends on what you consider harm.

-I don't think they add to the source material. If we're talking about ancient greek mythology specifically, it's been dead and burried for centuries. Whatever new is created, is a modern thing and seperate, in my opinion.

-However, it is the very nature of mythology, that people are meant to make their own stories inside it freely. If anything, I enjoy retellings, and even more than retellings I absolutely love the taking of characters (heroes gods, whatever) and making completely new stories with them. "retellings" as a concept can fall into the trap of trying to fix myths, to make them more palatable and enjoyable to a modern audience, which is what rubs me the wrong way.

-But there's no storytelling police so that's up to me to avoid reading those stories of course. Others may enjoy them, and not everyone has to care about the historical contexts or original messages of specific myths. I certainly think there are benefits to it and personally I find it adds to the enjoyment , but each person enjoys different things. I have spent many years stewing in my overprotective feelings towards ancient greek mythology but recently I decided I just want people to have a nice time. I'm also trying to teach myself to understand that other people are completely different to me, so if I find somethign sickeningly bad and others like it, that's just how subjective things work. So I might complain, half-jokingly always, about stuff but it's just to blow off steam and deep down i'm chill about everything.

I specifically don't like what I've heard about the song of achilles, plus I'm extremely, extremely biased when it comes to the iliad, so I am very picky about retellings for that specific part of mythology. the iliad has been my baby since I was very young and it's the one thing I allow myself to be completely crazy over, so when I say I cannot get through the movie troy because it's too painful, I 100% mean it. if you enjoy it, that's great. I will complain and bitch about it forever. I slept with that book under my pillow for my entire childhood and to have some randos come and spend millions to butcher it and drag its corpse like achilles dragged hector, for the whole world to see is too much.

As a last point. I think sometimes with retellings, especially of ancient greek mythology, we're a bit too sensitive because it has been too oftenly taken out of its cultural context and used willy-nilly to tell stories that reflect nothing greek, be it modern or ancient. It is a flashy topic for people to use however they want, and it's been changed to fit western cultures so so much, that I wish people would just leave it alone. Ancient greek mythology isn't about flashy god powers, it's about the values and experiences of a culture (or more correctly, multiple cultures), whether those align with modern ones or not, but when "retellings" are first and foremost made to be sold as products, the stories have to be altered to hell, to be nice and tame for the audience, to sell well. Which is a whole other discussion.

so yeah that's why I prefer all-new stories that maybe use mythological characters, over straight up retellings. But, as most ancient greek myths were very regional, had a million variations of which we know a tiny amount of, and were told and made for a long period of time, I don't think that retellings now are in any way inherently bad. But all the nice marble aesthetics (tm) and hot dudes will not fix a bad story, is what I wish people understood. Also I wish they didn't think they know or even claim to like the mythology from having read only retellings.

Anyways I am not a classicist, I am a fine arts student, so I might be saying absolute nonsense, my brain is too fried. on the other hand, i am born and raised in greece, and I have grown up with these myths everywhere around me and I really like them, so I have a lot of feelings about them, but that doesn't really mean anything. And I haven't noticed much harassing going on (lots of complaining, but that's the lifeblood of the internet) but then again I'm here on tmblr only a very short time. That all said, I absolutely do not condone harassing people for what they enjoy, especially for things that can only "harm" the person doing it, like reading stories.

[udaberriwrites]

Annie! I'm baaaack! For this third ask...

Tell me about Hades - specifically, Hades, Dusa, and Persephone!

Dusa

1: sexuality headcanon

She's canonically ace, which was great! I headcanon her as heteroromantic as well :D

2: otp

My girl is in a QPR with Zagreus and living her best life 😎

3: brotp

With Megaera! As I said before their friendship make sense to me. Meg's direct approach and self-confidence would likely register as safe for Dusa, especially because she'd know that Meg doesn't suffer fools lightly, so if she chooses to hang out it's because Dusa is worth it.

4: notp

I don't outright hate any ship, but there are none that call me either -- see 2.

5: first headcanon that pops into my head

She has a little cubicle up in the rafters where no one else can find her if she needs a few minutes to herself. It is lovingly decorated and very cozy.

6: favorite line from this character

"Friends, for all eternity."

7: one way in which I relate to this character

How adamant she is about earning what she has when it comes to her work; her dedication is admirable.

8: thing that gives me second hand embarrassment about this character

Being unable to hold a long conversation with Zagreus without fleeing... I just wanna give you nectar and be your friend T-T

9: cinnamon roll or problematic fave?

Cinammon Roll in Chief at the House of Hades, it says so in the administrative chambers somewhere.

Hades

1: sexuality headcanon

I jus can't see any of the Greek gods as portrayed in Hades caring all that much about gender and sexuality as mortals understand it.

2: otp

Probably a romantic relationship with Persephone and a QPR with Nyx. But Hades/Nyx/Persephone is great, as is Nyx/Persephone with Hades as their supportive bff.

3: brotp

With Charon, on account of him being the only deity that isn't constantly trying his patience. Also, with Cerberus, because he's the bestest boy.

4: notp

Zagreus and Melinoë. I know,Greek myth didn't shy away from that at all, but the game makes a point of having Zagreus not be his own uncle AND great-uncle so... let's keep it that way xD

5: first headcanon that pops into my head

He keeps snacks on one of the drawers on his desk and waits until no one is looking to indulge. It is the worst kept secret in the house (Hypnos regularly pilfers some whenever Hades leaves)

6: favorite line from this character

"Be still. These waters... teeming with Poseidon's river denizens. That one there, before me... it's been taunting me, I think, for quite some time." <-- Inner dork alert

7: one way in which I relate to this character

Going in to work is hard sometimes xD

8: thing that gives me second hand embarrassment about this character

Him losing repeteadly to his son... until you unlock Extremer Measures 😵

9: cinnamon roll or problematic fave?

Probably more problematic fave than cinammon roll. He's not winning any "Father of the eon" awards,that's for certain.

Persephone

1: sexuality headcanon

Same as Hades, gender is very much not a factor when it comes to attraction (she still enjoys peeking at Achilles' pectorals from the corner of her eye, she isn't blind, thank you very much)

2: otp

Same as before, any Hades/Nyx/Persephone combination is awesome.

3: brotp

With Nyx and/or Hades if not romantic. Also, with Hypnos, because the house can really use someone who's able to lift everyone's spirits and she finds him funny.

4: notp

Again, with Zagreus or Melinoë, they are her kids after all.

5: first headcanon that pops into my head

Skelly was Demeter's lover and thus her father. After dying, he made a pact so he could keep watch over his godly family.

6: favorite line from this character

"My heart soars, knowing you live. Then it breaks, that our time together was so brief." ☹️

7: one way in which I relate to this character

She's getting the whole family back together or so help her--!

8: thing that gives me second hand embarrassment about this character

Did she and Zagreus talk or just stare at each other in awestruck silence for literal hours in some of those cutscenes??

9: cinnamon roll or problematic fave?

Has people fooled into believing she's the cinammon roll of the triad. She raises more hell than the other two combined.

[spacedykez]

yknow what i feel like talking about my personal worldview. so why not. disclaimer this may include the following: negative views of religion, anti-religious sentiment, general negativity towards all belief systems (particularly Christianity), very scientific discussions of life/the human body, existentialism, bleak outlooks, death, morbidity, and the like. read at your own risk.

look. okay. i'm just gonna start this off by sayin: i respect your right to believe what you believe. and i don't have a problem with people practicing religion. i am also probably harsh and unfair towards religion as an idea. i Am sorry for that.

however. i simply Do Not Understand most religion. now okay right away: do Not bother trying to advertise your religion/beliefs to me. its not gonna work.

mythology, as concept, can be explained as people finding supernatural explanations for natural phenomenons. the greek story hades and persephone explains why the seasons happen. the greek god zues explains why we have thunderstorms. ra the Egyptian sun god explains why the sun rises and sets. the greeks have Apollo as an explanation for the same phenomenon.

religion, to me, follows similar patterns of belief. it is explaining why the world is what it is. and a lot of religious stories can be explained by natural phenomenon. i LOVE reading about the eruption of santorini, a volcano in the mediterranean sea, and how the fall of the minoan civilization, the story of the seven plagues in Egypt, the tale of Atlantis and a variety of other mythological/religious stories can be attributed to it.

but the issue is, it makes me skeptical. if so much of religion and mythology can be disproven and attributed to real events and phenomena, why believe these stories? science can explain most of what mythology can. and do you know what science has? proof. evidence. i trust what science has taught me, because it makes sense. it works together, and it can be proven.

so to me, religion? is a myth. a belief. it's not true. i respect that you are allowed to believe what you want. yeah. but i don't. these myths, these stories? yeah, jesus was a real person. was he the son of god? no, i don't believe that. did the seven plagues really happen? kind of. they are exaggerations, based on a real story that can be explained by Science.

to me? why would i believe that religion is anything more than another story? and why do we place so much importance on making political decisions based on it, when it's a lie?

and in all honesty? i don't like christians. i don't like christianity. block me, attack me, i don't care. as people? yeah. christians can be my friends, they can be good people. but their religion?

fuck it, man.

this is probably going to get me attacked, so just let me explain. i hate christianity because it pushes itself onto other people. i hate it because it's used as an excuse to justify stripping rights from other people. i hate it because it believes that i am drowning, that i am lost, that i am lesser, because i don't believe in it.

you know what i can respect? i can respect people believing in things that i don't believe in or understand that just want to be respected. that just want to live their lives. admittedly. i do Not know a Lot about the beliefs of anyone besides christians. maybe other religions are different in this way. maybe they're the same.

but i hate christianity with a burning passion. because it tells me that i am lesser if i don't buy into, in my eyes, their myth.

okay, religion rant over. i just wanna say on a similar note: i don't believe in the supernatural. i don't believe in ghosts, soulmates, reincarnation. i don't understand it. i don't buy it. spiritual stuff? astrology? nah. but i don't hate them. mostly. believe whatever lies you want as long as you don't try to force me to believe in them.

so if i don't believe in anything supernatural? what do i believe, then?

i believe- know? in my eyes, this is fact. this is what science tells me, and science can provide proof. i know that we are made of cells. i know that we are a complicated collection of electric and chemical signals that work together to create our world.

i don't think there's anything supernatural about the world. yeah its a bit bleak. but it's how the world is, really. it's mundane, and it's often far more random and physical than we think.

we are all matter, moving around on this planet. i like to think we are made of stardust. no, it's not true. but it's not inaccurate. on a base level, we are made of the same 92 elements that stars are made of. and it brings a little smile to my face to think that we are stardust, even if i know it's just a twisting of the truth for the sake of poetry and comfort.

and what is death? death is terrifyingly mundane. death is not supernatural, or magical. there is no after death. one day your brain will stop working in the mysterious ways it does, stop sending signals through your neurons, and that will be it. all that is You will be gone. and there are no souls, no reincarnation, nothing to bring you back again. you are gone.

yes. that's as scary to think of as it sounds. i don't like thinking of death. i don't like how easy it is to break the delicate balance of cells inside a human and kill them. but humans are, when it comes down to it, nothing special. we are simply cells, communicating. and yeah. its impressive to think about how humans work, in a more scientific way. maybe we're not magic, but it sure seems magical, how cells work, doesn't it? how millions of atoms come together, assemble, to make you the human that you are?

to end this on a happier note, i don't believe in magic. i don't believe in religion. but i do find meaning in life. it's about the little things, about the million different things that we consider mundane, that are really astonishing.

it's about the little weed that grows through the cracks in the pavement against all odds, trampled by rough feet and still growing despite that. it's about the casual intimacies of human life; the kind strangers you meet and the way that people are so beautifully human. about how we, as a species, want to create, and share, and be happy and make others happy, and love and be loved. i think that's a beautiful thing, really.

it's about the beauty and intimacy of nature; of the rivers and streams that flow consistently, year after year, about the mountains that are pushed up by the earth and the gentle waters of the ocean lapping against the shore. water is powerful and powerless; it erodes rock and destroys homes and yet we need it for life. and i think that the world contains a million intimacies that have a meaning far beyond than the lies we make up to explain them.

[marybeatriceofmodena]

#how could you say something so controversial and so brave#i'm going to raise the stakes further and say that the reason people decry Hades/Persephone...even if it's often phrased in a way to#acknowledge the pain that many women in Ancient Greece and Rome underwent...is actually REALLY misogynistic#and REALLY simplistic as far as the way that women in Ancient Greece and Rome thought of their situations#(again. we KNOW that there were sympathetic depictions of Hades/Persephone IN THE CLASSICAL ERA)#what's better -- for a woman to be centered (even if it's softening an often-unpalatable story) or for her suffering to be erased ENTIRELY#so that two soft bois can be in love#...at least the Hades/Persephone retellings....care about Persephone#they care about her consent#and a lot of the people decrying them strike me as not...understanding why teenage girls in particular might find themselves drawn to it#'don't you KNOW it's a story about suffering'#OF COURSE THEY KNOW. THEY LIVE IT.#it has the same vibes of anyone 'reminding' women that romance novels aren't reality#WHO WOULD IMAGINE?

I could kiss you, honestly. And I mean this with respect lol.

Like, I think people really need to understand that myths *aren't* supposed to be dogmatic. If you ask an Arthurian expert what the correct version of Morgan Le Fay's character is, you'll probably get an eyeroll. You can't compare myths to something like Catholic theology that's very strict in nature (and even then, there are debates happening within that field of study - St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Bonaventure had disagreements regarding Mary).

Myths *are* a reflection of the society and its mores at the time where it's told. Yes, you could say the Ancient Greek story of Persephone's abduction was a reflection of the general anxiety mothers felt about their daughters' marriages, as portrayed by Demeter. That being said, there's nothing ""wrong"" with portraying Persephone wanting to run away from her mother's home and find power as the Queen of the Underworld and as Hades's wife - I'd definitely have an issue if the retellings centered on Hades and them being all "ah pooh poor misunderstood Hades is lonely and doesn't know how to ask a girl out".

I think the current retellings are an echo of teenage girls and young women feeling disconnected from their parents. Hades and the Underwold are not so much a representation of them choosing the Patriarchy(tm) because they don't know any better, but of everything they desire but that they may be perceived as selfish for choosing. There is something appealing about Persephone choosing to eat the pomegrenate and then letting people believe she was tricked into doing it. It's a reverse Eve - none of the accountability that comes with making such a choice (Eve is punished, Persephone gets to lie and be perceived as faultless), but there are benefits to it - you go from being the Maiden (Kore) to the Destroyer of Light (Persephone), female rage that becomes sacred and part of your nature. And mind you, ultimately, there are a lot of retellings of Persephone's story that I've disliked. I don't think they stemmed from misogyny or *gasp* silly women unable to calm their hysterical ardours to soothe their loins and who turn to silly novels!

I don't like anything Madeline Miller has put out, but that's ultimately subjective. I can see why it resonates with people. I do have an issue with people assuming that her novels are the "correct" interpretation of the Illiad or the Odyssey - they're not. Unless she has stated otherwise, I don't think she set out to do that either. Jean Anouilh didn't set out to tell the "correct" version of Antigone's story, he simply wanted to make a point about the Résistance in 1940s occupied France by recontextualizing her story. Same goes with William Shakespeare, with Christopher Marlowe, with Jean Racine, with Anaïs Mitchell, and I'm skipping a bunch.

tl;dr Just stop being a killjoy and don't read what you know is going to give you the ick, jfc.

I'm gonna choose violence today but. You don't get to put Madeline Miller on a pedestal and then simultaneously decry the current state of Hades/Persephone retellings.

[thek1ngtalks]

Meeting...

Percy Jackson

Youre a bit of an oddball in camp. You were 15 when you were found, completely by accident. A saytr protecting another kid ran into you and that's the only reason he noticed you were a demigod.

You're,,, painfully normal, actually. Which, in a world of demigods and monsters, is in itself weird.

Being normal isn't a bad thing though. It's kept you and your parent safe, which is why they didn't put you on an immediate evac out to camp.

Sadly, your no monster streak was ruined as a frizzy red headed girl and a boy who looked like he tried to skate as a job while graffiting walls on the weekend broke into the band room you were trying to practice in

Great way to start off your highschool years, I assure you.

The redhead gives you a once over but deems you unimportant and starts trying to wedge herself between the wall and a bass drum.

The skater glanced between you and the red head before reluctantly joining her, hiding behind a bunch of bongos. They start whispering to each other, though it fails since you're pretty sure the red head's never whispered before

Your face pinches as you listen to them talk and like any normal person, you assume they're both crazy. Greek myths, what a joke.

Then, as the skater boy is about to reveal whatever big secret he's keeping, two cheerleaders step into the room. You vaguely remember them welcoming you in, although they called you a fish and stared at you funny.

Blah blah, they attack you, the skater boy– who the evil vampire ladies conveniently tell you the name of, Percy saves you both and then the school is on fire. Whoops?

Anyways, Percy brings you with him to camp, very shortly shows you around before things start getting crazy. Some centaur dude is on trial, Percy leaves for a quest and is dead for a little before he crashes his own funeral, overall a weird couple weeks.

After hiding in the Apollo cabin during the fight, handing things to the healers as they work, things seem to settle for a little.

He does come to see you to apologize for not being a very good guide and offers to show you a more detailed, and far more fun, intro to camp

That's when you start getting to know Percy more. His quirks, his skills, even his odd love of blue food.

He seems to seek you out often, answering only once that it's because you make everything so average.

You realize that with Percy's luck, everything is in extremes. When you're around though, he gets a break. If you can give him even a few minutes of peace, you don't really mind him calling you average (okay you still kinda do)

When you both inevitably start dating, no one's surprised. A few seemed disappointed they lost the apparent bet on Percy's love life, but no one was shocked considering how much Percy doted on you when you were around.

He also called you his good luck charm more than a few times, especially when you weren't around

Nico Di Angelo

You were a young mortal, emphasis on were. You had been a follower of the Chthonic Gods and with a life devoted to them, you got a bit of a cushy death.

You became a servant to Persephone, who had only needed a few extra hands temporarily and didn't care to dismiss you when things calmed down again. Obviously you don't remember much of your life but you were living a good death, so you weren't upset.

You had become an almost right-hand to her majesty, still a strong devote to her husband gave you a bit of a leg up in that regard.

And as her right-hand, she often gave you tasks she knew you could handle, you just weren't expecting to have to take care of a dandelion.

It definitely isn't one of the harder tasks she's had you do but it is more confusing. She had expressed that if one petal were to fall from it, Hades himself would send you to Tartarus, which is definitely NOT on your To Do List, so you've wisely took them to heart

You made sure to take it with you everywhere, taking care to keep the soil moist and talking to it often. You're not sure if it's helping but not a single petal has fallen yet, so you're positive that you're doing something right.

It's only after two weeks of this schedule that Persephone calls you to her room and tells you to bring the plant. Of course you listen

You're more than a little embarrassed when she turned the dandelion back into a broody teen, one who refuses to look back at you as he begins arguing with Persephone

Persephone dismisses you and the brooding boy takes that as his cue to leave with you, still avoiding your face

He thanks you for taking such good care of him and offers his name —Nico— but nothing else before he shadowtravels away

Over the next few weeks you find small trinkets from the overworld left in your room, in the spot you had left Nico's dandelion form.

After a month of this, you are walking with Persephone as she heads to her garden and are faced with 3 demigods

Your eyes meet Nico's and he seems embarrassed again before he begins arguing with Persephone again

You are ordered to help them navigate the underworld in search for Hades's newest symbol of power and Nico actually starts looking at you, talking to you, and being normal

He's quite nice and he doesn't seem to hold anything against you, which is nice. You get along a lot better when he can actually respond and after retrieving the sword, you ask Nico to drop his gifts off in person so that you can actually see him more.

It's barely a few years later when Nico leads you out of the Underworld in the midst of Thanatos being missing, apparently having already gotten Persephone's permission but oddly tight-lipped about how (he coughs up petals for a week)

As a human you begin aging again with small parts of your past coming back. Nico is delighted when you remember your name and makes sure to say it to you at least once a day in case you ever forget it again.

You follow him wherever he goes, even to Tartarus, and all of his friends are surprised when you announce your dating, only because they thought you already were

Nico has apparently been horribly obvious in his adoration of you and you're much the same

{《☆》}

[I was supposed to write a platonic soulmate shortfic with like 10 characters and accidentally wrote this instead. Congrats, I guess. (I'm still gonna write the other one, you can't stop me)]

[L0v3, k1ng]

[spirits-child]

Why people hating on Zeus equals to hating on a whole ancient society and... it's kinda dumb

If you have been in the part of social media that discusses ancient religions or ancient mythology you might know Zeus is hated badly. If you worship Zeus like I do I’m pretty sure you are aware of how many people actually waste times of their live doing bad jokes of how every woman on ancient Greece was pregnant with Zeus's kid or another type of bullshit, and I’m tired of that. There are already like 100 posts on other Zeus worshippers giving their take on this topic but you know what? I want to be the 101 so here I am. I’f you hate Zeus I ask you nicely to grab your coffee, water, tea, whatever, sit and read this post.

this post is written with a target audience of people who do not have much knowledge aside from the myths and what social media say, I’ll be including the very basic theological and cultural aspects of Ancient Greece in this post so let’s consider this a baby course into epithets and the human kind changing their ethic code through time. 

Before we officially start I'm sure some Zeus haters already have arguments to throw at me as soon as they finish reading this post so let me tell you, as a MUN delegate who's obsessed with debate, some argument starters I won't even read if you start a sentence with them:

"I believe or I think" I'm sorry but I don't care about your personal biases I want facts.

"X media thing portrays" x media or x author is not a reliable source of information, unless it's a historian with good background resources or reliable sources I won't even take it in mind

"In other religions..." this is hellenism not other religions

"But in x myth" myths are not literal

"But x deity" all deities are different

Anyways, let’s start with what’s a myth, the merriam webster dictionary says a myth is  “a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural”. My religion teacher back on catholic school also added to this definition a “moral code or cultural reflection religions implied into their followers”, and it's accurate.

In baby words, myths explain things our society can’t explain while also reflecting our culture and behaviours.

Clear? Clear. 

History has shown us that many religions don’t take their myths completely literally, most times they take them as metaphors or teachings to follow or simply they use them as propaganda to increase certains individual power, and this includes Ancient Greeks. If a king wanted to increase his power to scare people that may want to rebel he could easily say he was the child of Zeus, which is an explanation to why so many kings and heroes were kids of the all-mighty deity. Ancient Greeks also had to find a way to explain different phenomenons, and as many cultures before and after them, myths were a perfect way of doing so. To finish with myths and their uses, as many religions did and still do, the ancient Greeks needed a way to spread lessons to their people without the need of sitting them down and literally teaching them. Instead of doing this they preferred giving examples of things not to do. What makes Hellenism so different to actual modern religions is that the practice was and is more important that the actually texts, that can be a base but at the end of the day they are not the structure of the religion.

Now, a huge mistake many people commit is thinking the myths we nowadays read are the original myths. That’s a mistake. Ingrid Holmberg says in her essay titled as The Creation of the Ancient Greek Epic Cycle  “Their research (addressing Milman Parry and Albert Lord.) and the research of their followers has revealed that the Greek epic oral tradition formed a huge, interconnected, and variegated web of legendary and mythical narratives that comprised the corpus of the epic cycle(...).” Harvard university also addresses this topic by saying “Basically, the “question” came down to this: were the Homeric poems composed with or without the aid of writing? Parry’s project, the comparing of Homeric poetry with the living oral traditions of South Slavic heroic poetry, led him to conclude that the Homeric texts were indeed the products of oral composition.”

So tell me, years of investigation affirms that the myths were told from mouth to mouth, the poets did not write their original work down but after many years later someone did... the version written is a version passed generation from generation by someone who heard them from their parents who heard them from their grandparents that might have edited and changed the original version for hundreds of years. Knowing all this areyou’re still going to judge a culture and a religion through myths? Really? Because that’s plainly dumb.

Let me give you an example, I write you a message and then pass it through google translator 20 times, and send it. And actually did! The message I’ll translate 20 times is “Hello dear readers of the internet, this is an experiment with google translator to explain how dumb is to literally judge a myth that has been changed hundreds of times. Not only that, a myth that reflected a society with different a ethic code, in some hundreds of years if society still exists they are going to judge some things we do... so em don't waste your time on that”. After passing that message through 20 different languages in google translator this is how it ended up: Hello, dear internet reader, you will be judged not only by this, but also by some of the hundreds of years that we have done with the growth of social networks ... so don't waste time. Don't waste.

I’m not trying to say that historians and their translations are as bad as google translator, I know this people have studied years to do what they do, I’m just saying that the original stories were told so many times that we have hundreds of adaptations and changes. Here's an example, if you read a copy of the iliad written by x guy and then grab another copy written by another guy... you’ll find many differences in the translation.

Now that we got the translation clear thing you’ll probably still say “yeah anyways still myths say Zeus is a pr3d4tor who cheated on his wife muuultiple times”. And to that I’ll laugh ten minutes because yeah but no. Look at my beautiful hazel and eyes and tell me, do you think Ancient Greek men cared about women? And how they were treated? and how they were portrayed in the moment of explaining things?

If you say yes I beg you to go study some history. 

If you say no, bingo. 

A year a go I went down the rabbit whole of homosexuality in the ancient world, wrote an essay on it, and I found out men repeled women and they saw them as baby machines (i mean, some still do) so some societies had this idea that the closest relationship to love you could have with someone was with another man. So, understand that the ancient world didn’t give a damn about women. Most myths shows them as trophies, that’s no surprise for anyone at this point. So of course, they saw women as baby machines and as myths are reflections of society, do you really expect the Ancient Greeks to portray them as something else aside baby creators? Nooo!!!! Ofc they were not going to do that, they needed mothers to give an explanation to the hundreds of kings saying they were Zeus's kids, and they found them.

Okay now, some of you may ask why did he "cheat" on Hera... more cultural aspects being reflected. Here's what Jennifer Larson the writer of Ancient Greek cults has to say:

Now that we closed the marriage ethic issue The Zeus has many child joke or insult is even dumber because kids were so important for the social status in that era that they stablished the social status. During all Human’s story, money establishes your place in the social status: the more you have the higher you are. This also applied in the Ancient Greece. By having more kids it meant you had more to offer and to sustain your family, basically more kids = more money = more power = higher rank. 

Studying children and childhood is of great importance because it provides insight into social norms and social life in ancient Greece. Children were important for the parents, the home, and city. Not having children led to inability to pass on the property and wealth of the father.

If Zeus, the KING of the gods and mortals, father of humanity, doesn't have a lot of children then what do you think it would do to how Ancient Greeks perceived him huh. If they measured by kids ofc their higher deity had to have a lot because that gave him power, please, it’s pure logic. The fact that he has multiple kids is a perfect reflection of how the Ancient Greece society acted, do you really want to sit down and complain about it? Why don't you instead start thinking of a way of changing that capitalist mindset that still rules our society instead of bullying an old civilization and their cults.

—End of the cultural rant—

Okay cultural part has finished, let’s dive into my favorite topic ever: epithets. And I actually did like 3 polls on this, both on my twitter and my instagram, asking if my followers knew what an epithet was. I always had this thought that one of the reasons many people hate on deities is because they only see one side of their multiple-side self... and ofc the answer was no, they did not:

And epithets are soooo important to understand a deity, So assuming some people might not know what epithets are here is a brief summary extracted from a previous post of mine addressing epithets and their importance: Literal definition of epithet: an adjective or phrase expressing a quality or attribute regarded as characteristic of the person or thing mentioned.Let me give you an example: A friend of yours loves reading, they love it so freaking much, so one of your teachers is like “oh pepito the reader”, it’s obvious that pepito is a reader.Now examples with deities. Demeter Chthonia (of the Earth). WHAT DO WE ASSUME KIDS?! That Demeter is an Earth deity. Duh. And like that with all the deities. 

Epithets basically tell us how deities were perceived when worshipped, and many of the people who love judging Zeus have ignoring epithets as their favorite hobby so here I am, giving you a list of my favorite ones to take in mind: 

AGO′NIUS (Agônios), a surname or epithet of several gods. Aeschylus (Agam. 513) and Sophocles (Trach. 26) use it of Apollo and Zeus, and apparently in the sense of helpers in struggles and contests.

AGORAEUS and AGORAEA (Agoraia and Agoraios), are epithets given to several divinities who were considered as the protectors of the assemblies of the people in the agora, such as Zeus 

ALASTOR (Alastôr). an epithet of Zeus, describing him as the avenger of evil deeds. 

EVA′NEMUS (Euanemos), the giver of favourable wind

HETAEREIUS (Hetaireios), the protector of companies or associations of friends

HY′PATUS (Hupatos), the most high

LECHEA′TES (Lecheatês) i.e. the protector of childbed

NOMOS (Nomos), a personification of law, described as the ruler of gods and men. 

PANHELLE′NIUS (Panellênios), i.e. the god common to, or worshipped by all the Hellenes or Greeks

PHY′XIUS (Phuzios), i. e., the god who protects fugitives

POLIEUS (Polieus), "the protector of the city;"

SOTER (Sôtêr), i. e. "the Saviour"

Theos Agathos - The Good God

MEILIKHIOS (Milichius) Gracious, Merciful

After reading all this epithets I want to ask one last time, do you still think Zeus is a jerk? When he has the literal epithet of being a Good God? A merciful one? A protector? THE PERSONIFICATION OF LAW?

A fact aspect I want to mention is how people love to completely erase the good sides of Zeus portrayed in many myths. In the Iliad Zeus loves one of his most loved sons, he wants to go and revenge him because he's an amazing dad but he knows that if he does that he would be impartial and injustice to the other deities who have lost children but haven't been able to do anything about it. Instead he mourns in silence just to refrain from making other deities feel less privileged, this happens in the freaking Iliad and I'm sorry but I think that is a perfect example of how good Zeus is even if myths are not literal.

IZeus is more than the character modern media converted him into, he’s way more than that. He’s a deity, with multiple aspects and multiple stories that have adapted to fit into into ancient societies idea of what was a higher deity. All the arguments people have against him show that they do not understand how myths work and they do not understand that ancient times came with ancient ideals.

So please, research and form your own criteria before hating on something you don't actually know about. Give yourself the opportunity to listen all sides of the story and then after that you can say whatever you want. Most importantly, give yourself the opportunity to learn.

Hopefully this is my last post regarding this matter, if I quite changed your mind in any type of way then that's great, if I didn't that's on you. That's all I have to say and thank you for reading the post complete!

The Harvard post I quote at the beginning of the article is this one, if you have time please check it out : https://chs.harvard.edu/curated-article/gregory-nagy-orality-and-literacy/

[screeching-0wl]

Hi, Alan. It's me, again!!! ✨

Sorry if I bother you too much haha 😞.

I remember you're an Ares devotee and I have a question: what's the relation between Ares and snakes?

My state became more dangerous (m**ders against women for no reason), for some reason I lost my faith these months and one of the things I wanted to do is to buy a pin that reminds me to Ares to remember him on my trips. Besides, snakes are animals that many deities from my practice have in common. I thought it was a good idea... but I really want to know the Ares relation because it's one of the gods I need that more protection now.

Obviously I'm taking care in other ways thinking of Ares like sharing my location to my relatives and carrying a cutter close to me.

Sorry for tell you all of this, that has nothing to do with your country, women are suffering here. Government don't do anything and everything we have now is social media.

Btw, don't think I want attention or anything like that. I decided to ask you this way because it's still informative in a Hellenic way and it's important to visibilize that unfortunately it still being violence against women.

Hope you're fine 🐍❤

Hey!

Aww, you're not bothering me! I'm always happy to see I got an ask from you!

First, I'd like to say I'm very sorry to hear this is happening. I don't mind you telling me. I think it's important to talk about things like that and raise awareness about them. I hope you find some peace and security in these trying times and receive support from those close to you. I pray that you and other women be safe. May Ares keep you in his care.

About your question, let's look at Ares' connection to snakes:

Serpents have been associated with Ares and are thought to be one of his symbols.

There are plenty of deities who have such associations but in Ares' case, this might stem from episodes of his mythology which feature dragons. As we know in the eyes of the ancient Greeks these 'dragons' did not look exactly like the dragons we're used to seeing in video games and movies, but rather like the one below:

Left - Cadmus & Ismenian Dracon (Ares standing beside the beast)

Right - Cadmus & Ismenian Dracon

We can see a few different types of these creatures in Greek mythology but generally, they were just giant serpents, sometimes equipped with rows of sharp teeth, deadly poison or multiple heads. In myth, the beast usually guarded a sacred spring, grove or some sort of treasure. The modern word "dragon" derives from the creature's name - δράκων [drákōn]. Even the ancient greek might often be directly translated just as "serpent".

Mythology

These are the most famous dracons mentioned in Ares' mythology:

The Istmenian Dracon - a dragon guarding the sacred spring of Ares near Thebes. The creature was slain by the hero Cadmus who sowed its teeth in the earth to reap a crop of earth-born warriors. Istmenian Dracon is also sometimes said to be a child of Ares.

The Colchian Dracon - a never-sleeping dragon guarding the Golden Fleece in the sacred grove of Ares at Colchis. The creature was bewitched by Medea so that the hero Jason could steal the treasure.

Other than that, Cadmus and Harmonia (daughter of Ares) were turned by the god into snakes and later carried off the Islands of the Blessed to live in peace.

Art

Ares was also sometimes depicted with serpents, like on the vase above. He could also be holding a serpent. We might see depictions of serpents on his shield as well.

Left - a bronze statue of Ares holding a serpent

Right - Ares defending his son Cycnus (serpent on the shield)

Hope this helps! 💜

[katerinaaqu]

It IS a rethorical question. Quite honest many people use EPIC tag to get views because as you see the tag has literally taken over everything! I can hardly speak on the original material without someone bringing up EPIC anymore and honestly it is a bit sad. I felt the same when people were using Miller's inaccurate books to basically shut everyone up that was speaking on original sources because apparently they do not like to be reminded that the original material and the retellings exist.

The teaming up of people is great and this is why people use tags. Occasionally to show their general interest so whenever they post something related to the Epic Cycle they do also include the musical because they like it.

I have said it many times over since I am not an EPIC fan at least not plot-wise, the musical is NOT just a representation that was not meant to be accurate. At this point it screwed over literally EVERY part of the Odyssey that it made it what it is in the first place. EPIC is no longer a "loose adaptation" is basically an original story without original characters. Literally change Odysseus to any other name and you still have your story. Either way love it or hate it or simply like it etc I don't care as much but it is both sad and annoying to see constantly fandoms take over this way and people not being able to find stuff that used to belong to the original sources or quite honest post it and get attention due to the fact that the fandoms are taking over.

We also see the phenomenon the fandom logic reach the points of confusion where people think the material they are fans of is actually responding to actual material. I remember that at some point even Wikipedia included the "Hermes and Circe lovers" and that corresponded to no source apart from Miller's books. The same goes with many things going on.

Thanks for your insights OP but yeah I am not looking for explanations. I can imagine what is the explanation. As my tags speak of this is just a rant of mine not really a question per se. It is great that people get to know the classics by the adaptations aka they get encouraged to look for them and learn but as others have said before me the fact that the tag is used literally for EVERY SINGLE REFERENCE to the epic cycle has made it very hard for others who do not seek reference to the musical not to get swarmed by them. And as other Greeks who love the classics like me do speak also on the fact that mythology in general and Greek mythology in particular being treated like a fandom is already a bit of interesting and kinda complicated subject to discuss because myths were actually parts of cultures and not just "fairy tales" or fake stories that people used just to pass the time and many modern retellings of myths have created such a massive wave of misunderstandings that right now is impossible to tell truth from lie sometimes or that people are so prejudiced against ancient cultures exactly because of the way they are depicted in these modern adaptations

Either way thanks again for your insights but yes it was a rethorical question.

You realize that a fandom has gone off the rails or that it has REALLY taken over when you see "Epic the Musical" tagged under images of Achilles and Patroclus! Like...how are two characters who were both dead by the taking of Troy, yet alone by Odyssey who do not appear not even as a mention for the Underworld as they were in the Odyssey, relatable to this?!

Sorry! XD