#as marginalized cis men do experience oppression and queerness

[transmascpetewentz]

One thing that doesn't get brought up enough in discussions of how the man-hating variety of radical feminism is based in homophobia. Like does no one remember when lesbian separatist radfems tried to claim that all gay men are predators? I think that a lot of people on tumblr who haven't really unlearned that rhetoric spread it unknowingly and will say shit like "well I'm not like those other misandrists, I don't hate gay men because they're gay I hate them because they're men!"

Ok but the effect is the same. Patriarchal structures of manhood and masculinity oppress queer men and men of color with their manhood/masculinity as a modifier. I do not like the word misandry for many reasons but the patriarchal role of a man is more than just the absence of womanhood or the position of power over others.

Butches, trans men, and some nonbinary people are all groups that do not generally have access to male privilege, but we still have the modifier of "male" factor into our oppression. All marginalized men have this modifier to an extent. Gay men are not simply oppressed for being gay, they are oppressed for being gay men specifically and occupying that position in society. While most cis gay men have access to cis and male privilege, they are still oppressed for how their gender and agab intersects with their gay identity.

What I mean when I talk about marginalized manhood is the common threads between different oppressions of minority male identities. It doesn't imply that misandry is real or that misogyny isn't. I don't know if there's a particular name for this type of theory/thought, but it perfectly explains how trans men are oppressed as a type of marginalized man while still experiencing misogyny.

Binary, radfem thinking makes people believe that marginalized manhood is characterized by the absence of misogyny when this could not be further from the truth. Woman—man is not only a bad way of looking at gender identity, but is also not how social positionality works. There are ways to explain how trans and intersex men are able to experience misogyny and marginalized manhood at the same time, but that requires us to quit thinking that the two social positional genders are "male" and "non-man".

[transfemme-shelterdog]

I am so. gddamn. tired. of the infighting. I see transfems struggling and talking about negative experiences in the queer community and it pisses me off on their behalf, but then sometimes they blame it on transmascs and "tmes." I see transmascs talking about their negative experiences in the queer community and getting shut down and called hateful shit for it. I just fundamentally do not understand how people can have such a rigid view of oppression that they think men are never oppressed for being men because Man is a higher power category so you can't be oppressed for being that. Even if they're not oppressed for being men, oppression of marginalized men often relates to masculinity. The idea of moc and disabled men as being violent and predatory, for instance. I also see people saying the most bigoted shit and brushing it off as hyperbolic making fun of men.

(everyone who's ever joked about how men not keeping a space clean/having poor personal hygiene and asked who would even want these people owes me $20)

I've noticed that people keep getting reduced to their labels. In a discourse setting, you're not a person with a story and personality and likes and dislikes or anything. You're just a collection of labels. You're a white transmasc, a disabled poc, a black trans woman, a cis lesbian, etc. You're a collection of hypothetical social hierarchies. I feel like people forget that we're all just people. That person behaving badly isn't behaving badly because they're transmasc/transfem/any flavor of queer/etc, it's because they're a person being an asshole.

I'm just. I'm so tired. I hate seeing people hurting and I just want to protect everyone and I can't do that if they're too busy seeing me as a problem because I'm a trans man saying that I do face oppression, actually. We're all hurting so much right now and I just want to help people. I want to be able to do more to protect my people.

This ended up being a rant in your inbox without a point but I enjoy your posts and I'm always glad to see someone standing up for us. Thank you for that. I think you're a better person than you give yourself credit for.

(also, that ass. 👀)

Yeah it really is tiring. How about we treat people based on who they are, not the labels they've been given. Plenty of white, cishet men are homeless, or assaulted daily. People are more than just their labels, and I wish people would stop trying to rank labels from most to least oppressed. It's not a game, we're not keeping score.

Trans men and mascs are oppressed in the same, and different ways that trans women/fems are. This is a fact, not up for debate.

Man hating is so 2010 Tumblr. Let's move the fuck on.

(also, that ass. 👀)

Thank you <3. If you wanna see more, always open to sending custom/personalized stuff via DM. Ass, tits, whatever.

[velvetvexations]

So wild to see someone claim that transfems are the only marginalized people who are not taken seriously when they talk about the problems they face. Like have you ever talked to another marginalized person before? All marginalized people deal with not being taken seriously, that's kinda one of the biggest components of systemic oppression. Society not taking your suffering seriously or believing it doesn't exist in the first place is the reason laws are so hard to change, if the people in power don't think your suffering is real or they think it's not that bad/how you should be treated why would they lift a finger to help? A significant portion of de-radicalizing bigots is helping them see that marginalized people are treated unfairly and that we should do something about it, because the system is designed to deny that things like transphobia and racism exist so thoroughly that the average person can end up doubting that it happens.

Disabled, fat people, intersex people, and yes even cis women, die all the time because society does not take us seriously when we talk about our problems, and fuck "do bi+/ace/aro/enby people actually face bigotry" discourse is happening everywhere all the time. That's gotta be one of the most out of touch things I've ever seen someone say, how could you possibly believe that transfems are the ONLY group not taken seriously when they talk about their problems?? The walking on eggshells thing around cis men part is wild too like hello have you ever tried to combat bigotry small scale? Because it's a lot of walking on eggshells around people who have power over you in the hopes you can convince them to treat you like a person, partially because that person often holds the kind of power over you that could get you killed or worse. Suggesting that this is somehow unique to trans women is one step away from arguing that transfems are the only people that experience bigotry at all.

None of us are taken seriously because it's hard to accept that you are not the only person being hurt. Even if you aren't oppressed at all you are always going to believe your suffering is the worst and most important because your body is trying to prioritize your survival to keep you alive, which then colors everything about how you see the world, including other people's suffering. Most of us learn at some point that everyone's suffering matters and other people getting a slice of cake doesn't mean there's less for us, but unfortunately some people have become so entrenched in their own suffering the idea that anyone else could also be suffering and have a right to talk about it feels like an attack. So often we see people saying bigoted things insist acknowledging the suffering of others means you are denying that they suffer even though it isn't true. White people do this shit all the time with racism, pulling the "how dare you say black people suffer don't you know that I have problems too??" card like their life depends on it the second someone suggests that parts of the game might be rigged in their favor, or when cis women insist that talking about trans issues is hurting them by somehow denying that they have problems, or when TRFs insist talking about the issues transmascs, nonbinary, and intersex people is unacceptable and transmisogynistic because somehow suggesting that any other queer folks suffer is the exact same as saying transfems don't suffer at all.

If some trans women/fems truly think that they are the only people who do not have their suffering taken seriously, I just don't know. I don't know how anyone could think that unless they've either never actually listened when another marginalized person brings up their problems, or they think everyone not paying attention to their suffering and their suffering only 24/7 and still centering them even if the conversation is about something that has nothing to do with them at all surely must mean no one cares about them and they are the most hated and marginalized people on earth, or both!

It's "I am uncomfortable when we are not about me" all the way down, and it's exhausting in it's immaturity. You can talk about how people don't listen to trans women/fems without suggesting or even stating that they are the only people this is happening to when that is so provably incorrect it's contradicting the very basis of what oppression is. If that's your take on social justice you need to go back to class. Accepting that one of the biggest parts systemic oppression and bigotry is people in positions of power not taking the suffering of the oppressed seriously/denying that it happens at all or that when it does it's a bad thing should not need to be explained to you.

very well said anon <3

[genderqueerdykes]

I wanted to share a story about a cishet man who has been one of my biggest supporters. I'm a bigender, transmasc poly queer. I became interested in the Baha'i Faith. The Faith on an international organizational level has issues with same-sex marriage. Interestingly, it's fine with trans identity, as long as you're transhet. Regardless, I've been treated very well by my community.

My friend is a mixed race Filipino/Norwegian man. He's the same height as me (shorter), and is certainly cis and straight. He has questioned himself and whether he is cishet, and determined that it's true based on how he continues to identify as a man and how he's attracted to women. He and I have some of the most in-depth, interesting conversations about masculinity and manhood. He is incredibly respectful of my lived experience, and compares and contrasts his experience as a man of color having his own masculinity delegitimized, or feeling pushed into white toxic masculinity. It's really a gift to know him.

When learning about my experience, he listens carefully, is honest about what he doesn't know or understand, asks me what the best language to use would be and asks questions to ensure he can understand to the very best of his ability. I do the same thing for him, since I'm white. He has related to me his understanding of Filipino gender expansiveness and shares with joy about family member(s) who are queer, particularly one who got top surgery a few years back. He believes me, believes in me, and advocates for my belonging and that of his family members. He was raised with emphasis on justice and liberation for oppressed peoples because of his faith, and his own lived experience. I even confessed my love for him and asked him to be my partner, and he held my hand and told me he didn't feel the same way, but could we please be friends anyway? I cherish him and hope we can be friends for a very long time.

Other marginalized men are some of our best allies. Even men who don't come from marginalization can be incredible friends of queer people. We need all of us. People like him restore my faith in humanity.

hey that's so cool, thanks for taking the time to share i really appreciate it! i'm glad you have him in your life! there are so many people out there who are allies or understand or relate or just be okay with queerness. that's great to hear!

[technicoloryuri]

Hey can I ask, like genuinely. What is TME and all that? What's it stand for? The Google Machine is not helpful in this case and you seem to know a lot about it. I don't get the whole discourse. <3 an elder queer trying to understand

Thank you for asking! Other people will be about to better explain it but to put it as simply as possible, it's one of the terms used for describing the systems of oppression in regards to Transmisogony.

TME (trans misogyny exempt), refers to people that are simply exempt from the system and kinds of oppression transmisogony creates. (Cis men, cis women, trans men, etc etc,)

TMA (trans misogyny affected) refers to the people that are elected by the systems and oppression caused by trans misogyny. (Primarily out trans and closest trans women, as well as Coercively assigned male at birth NBs)

There's been criticism from "trans-androbros" and "transandrophobia truthers" regarding these terms saying they're "bioesentialist" but they have very little to do with your sex. It's in my opinion they are often against these terms because it forces them to recognize they do have systemic power and grapple with the fact that just because they are trans they are not free of criticism or bigotry.

This isn't a unique problem to trans men however, while transmisogony is the intersection between transphobia and misogyny, we can go a step further and include the intersection between transphobia, misogyny and racism, also known as transmisogynoir. (I won't go into depth about transmisogynoir simply because I'm not an authority on the topic and lack the lived experience of it)

Essentially, TMA and TME refer to systematic oppression, and like all forms of systemic oppression, the people who benefit from it do not want to lose the privileges gained by them (even if it is only relative to those in a shared marginalized group) and this will push back on the language used to describe this oppression, and activism to correct the systems that allow them to benefit from it.

[cardentist]

As a nonbinary/genderfluid biromantic, demiromantic asexual, literally every part of my gender identity and sexuality has been subject to the same "you could EASILY pass as cishet, so can you REALLY say you experience oppression when you could simply CHOOSE not to" and "you're not REALLY oppressed for being XYZ, you're only oppressed when people mistake you as cis fem/trans fem/gay/lesbian/any other identity we think is ACTUALLY important." My existence in online queer spaces has been hounded constantly by people trying to tell me what my lived experiences are and what they mean, shouting me down about how I can't speak about Insert Issue/Topic Here because sure maybe I'm queer (and to some, I don't even have the right to call myself that) but I'm at the bottom of the Who Is Oppressed More Hierarchy, I am only Oppressed in the way that sometimes I experience what they deem to be a different group's oppression. Not even my oppression is my own! I am too much of an "aberration" to find community and a place to speak amongst the general populace, and I'm too privileged to have a voice in the queer community, even about things that affect me.

And now, I'm watching that same rhetoric being used against transmen and transmascs. I remember when people on this site started really exploring queer headcanons for characters, everyone cheering "let's make X character gay! Y character is trans! Z character is a lesbian!" but if you dared to suggest "can Q character be ace?" you'd be met with "... that's boring." I remember how quickly ace exclusion devolved from "aces are boring" to "god, aces are annoying" to "when you think about it, aces aren't even really oppressed, so they aren't queer, so they should just shut up." And then it wasn't just aces, it was bi folks. And then it was enbies too. And now. Here we are.

This is the only site where people will blog about how "Gender is a sandbox! It's fucky! Men can be women, and women can be men! I'm a boygirl kind of girlboy! There are genders and sexualities in all sorts of shrimp colors you can dream of!" but in the same breath, they'll still act weird about he/him lesbians. They'll still claim that ALL masculinity is toxic. They'll still say that men are boring and annoying and-- Oh? You think that's kind of hurtful? You want to use this as an opportunity to talk about your own lived experiences and vent your frustrations courteously and privately on your own blog? Why do you have to make everything about you?! You're lower down the Who Is More Oppressed ladder because, wHeN yOu tHinK aBouT iT, no man can be oppressed for being a man! Even trans men! So you and anybody even vaguely masc aligned should just shut up and stay out of the conversation and let the queers who experience REAL bigotry talk!

... They could at least say something new instead of reusing the same rhetoric they've used for aces and aros and bi/pan folk and enbies and masc/butch lesbians and countless other queer identities.

All that to say, as someone who has been subject to all this for every part of my identity, I stand with you. Trans Unity! Queer Unity!

Context: [Link 1, Link 2]

I know Exactly what you're talking about !

I was around in inclusionist spaces 10 years ago at this point, before I'd fully crystalized what I Had Going On.

I Remember it being pointed out that ace exclusionists were stealing talking points from radfems directly, up to and including ripping off entire posts and just swapping out "trans women" with "asexuals."

I Remember people warning each other that normalizing these kinds of talking points, convincing people that that Mindset is a valid one, would then make it easy to swap out the Target of said mindset.

and it Has happened, over and over and over again. people are Always looking for the marginalized people that nobody wants to stand up for. that people don't understand, that people don't see as Needing support, that people already have negative feelings about even if they don't recognize Why.

it'll only ever stop when people examine the talking points Themselves and throw them out. when people are willing to stand in solidarity with people Regardless of whether they understand them or not.

if someone is trying to convince you that class of people As A Whole are undeserving of support, are lesser than, shouldn't have their voices heard or considered, Question It ! when they hold people up in Comparison to say that their pain is Lesser and therefore doesn't Matter, Question It !!

[genderqueerdykes]

Thank you for all your arguments for the rights of all trans people (including trans mascs) and I enjoy your perspective. I recently discovered I am trans she/her and I’m glad I am able to learn from you. Do you have any thoughts you’d like to share that might help me?

thank you so much, i really appreciate that! i'm glad you decided to reach out, that's very kind! that's exactly the spirit i love to see in the community. first of all, i hope things are going well for you, and that you're able to do whatever you need to to feel like the most authentic version of yourself. if you need help gathering resources or information on transitioning, queer history, trans health, whatever you may need i'll do my best to help!

i would say do your best to be kind to yourself in a way that helps you be kind to others as well. try to not hold grudges against yourself for anything you've done in the past, or any way you've identified in the past. it takes time for people to grow and change and learn. and it's definitely okay to feel alienated and disenfranchised at some points. the world is large and the most rude, stubborn people love to speak the loudest. you don't have to listen to anyone else who tells you what your identity is or is not. i feel like loving or at least being neutral toward one's self, including the past before they realized who they are now, is a good way to help one's self not get carried away

in general, transmascs generally do not have trans womens & fems worst interest in mind. it really is people who are frustrated with patriarchy and jaded about not wanting to be seen as men that hurt others. i understand that it comes from such a deep place of pain. i know how bad it hurts. but taking it out on random men and mascs doesn't fix the problem, especially trans men and mascs, who are fighting to be seen as men by queer peers... let alone being anywhere close to being seen as men by patriarchy. it's so hard for that to happen, transmascs and men do not instantly gain cishet male privilege the second they realize they're trans

we have a lot to share with one another. we have very similar, but unique experiences to share. both groups deal with the same issues, but in distinct ways. both of us deal with transphobia. both of us deal with homelessness. both of us deal with having to go into s3x work. both of us deal with being abandoned by family. both of us deal with domestic violence. both of us deal with assault at the hands of random queerphobes. both of us are targeted by policing who uses gendered bathrooms. both of us can experience homophobia, lesbophobia, biphobia, intersexism and many other types of hatred on top of transandrophobia and transmisogyny. some trans women experience transandrophobia. some trans men experience transmisogyny. queerphobic society is very harsh on both groups

it's not worth turning anything into the oppression olympics. it's not about who has it worse. it's not about who is the most marginalized. it's about all of us: every marginalized queer. we are all disadvantaged in some manner. just because a lot of people know that cis gay men exist doesn't mean we're safe, quite the contrary. the more exposure, more people become aware of things they hate in gay men and it's just as dangerous. we all experience unique struggles that need room to be discussed.

i think that in time people will learn that hate solves very little. it's not worth the energy. it's really better to put your energy toward making sure your life is actually headed in the way you want it to be. be there for your trans friends. if you see someone else talking about manhating and antimasculism is a good thing, if you have the courage, tell them they're being an asshole. the only way we can end this behavior is if we challenge it. trans mascs and men are not a monolith. we are not evil. we are not the "bad" gender. we are vast and have the capability of being an infinitely broad range of people. profiling people based off of their gender liberates no one

[drdemonprince]

trans men do face similar rates of violence to trans women and therefore should not be exclulded from places like abuse shelters and do need more protections than cis men do imo.

I think policy should be applied with this in mind as well when doing things about gendered spaces.

I think a lot of queer or trans women have reservations about this due to terf rhetoric telling them that the only real axis of oppression is whether you were born a female or not. but i do not think the solution to this is holding trans men and cis men in a 1:1 (i also think the same thing w trans women and transmisogyny. trans ppl can havr diff experiences to their cis counterparts and thats ok yk?)

Cis men are statistically more vulnerable to violent crime at the hands of strangers than cis women are by a wide, wide margin, and men's shelters are already pretty dangerous places -- often due to numerous institutional failures and outright abuse from staff. I say this not as undermining whataboutism, but to point out that while I understand why trans men might feel unsafe in men's shelters, our fears and sense of safety are not apolitical and are often skewed by which groups we are taught are dangerous and which groups we're taught are weak.

now! all that said! I think trans people absolutely are vulnerable within gendered shelters and I wouldnt call any trans man irrational for not wanting to be in one, just as I wouldnt question a trans woman who didn't feel safe in a women's shelter. they literally cant win! they will be mistreated in either space.

But the thing is, I can't claim these spaces are safe or respectful to anyone! They are oppressive institutions! They often control clients' movement, remove their possessions, force them into religious programming, force their beliefs on clients and impose restrictions on their lives, what they put in their body, and how they make their money, threaten them with incarceration, and subject them to assault and abuse.

Gender segregation is no assurance of safety, and doing gender segregation right is impossible because the binary is inherently oppressive.

when nearly every shelter abuses and denies agency to all its clients, figuring out the exact right gender breakdown for ensuring safety feels like a distraction from the root issue. the whole system needs to be redone to be client directed.

it's a bit like trying to decide which gendered prison a trans person ought to be sent to. we shouldnt be treating anyone like an inmate. but virtually all shelters do.

[tboy-trash]

As a trans woman, I tell trans men they can use whatever words they want for their oppression. You don't have to. That's fine.

listen i get the impulse to say that people can use whatever words, but when we're talking about oppression words matter, and genuinely this thing with "transandrophobia" *constantly* leads trans guys to

-thinking transandrophobia is the equivalent of transmisogyny (in fact this is why the term was coined, we already had "transphobia" to describe our oppression), and thus when a trans woman is speaking about transmisogyny, especially when she mentions the transmisogyny of a queer space trans men frequent, they speak over her and bring up transandrophobia to pull, essentially, a "but what about men" argument

-misunderstanding terf ideology (thinking terfs "hate men" as if they hated all men and not specifically trans and gnc men. and as if the primary target for their hate weren't actually women)

-a "let men be masculine"-like mentality where, because they think they're oppressed for *being men*, they dismiss those of us who actually aren't masculine and experience more misogyny than they do, including misogyny in trans male spaces

i'm always talking about examples with other marginalized men, because i just think it's the most helpful way so people get what we mean, so, let's say: disabled men. they're clearly oppressed, and their experiences of oppression differ from those of disabled women, but it's not because of "androableism". it's bc disabled women are at the intersection of disability and gendered oppression, and they aren't. if disabled men started talking about "androableism" we also wouldn't be "well they can use whatever words to talk about their experiences!" because that word misunderstands systemic oppression and is conductive to misogyny.

the situation with trans men is a bit more complex, i guess, and that's why i think this discourse started -whereas i've never seen another group of marginalized men try to invent a word for why they're hated for being men- because all of us at least at some point do experience *a lot* of misogyny, which for some reason, maybe dysphoria, some confuse with "man hatred". but it's just. not. and if we pulled our head out of our asses and talked to a trans woman every once in a while (or sometimes even a cis woman tbh) we'd see that it's not.

[pokegyns]

trans people are cool, I have no problem with trans people or transness, i even loosely ID as trans myself. My only problem is the erasure of sex and sex based oppression, as well as the heavy ~everyone is valid uwu~ rhetoric

It shouldn’t be considered anti-trans to acknowledge sex, or acknowledge that trans women and fems have male privilege, or acknowledge that trans men and mascs are generally less privileged than trans fems bc sex systemically matters more than gender identity. I still consider trans women to be women, but they should have to acknowledge their own male privilege and power over female people

I will always care more about sexism than any form of gender identity based oppression, sex faces inescapable systemic oppression on the same level as systemic racism (im blk&w multiracial before u get on me), gender doesnt.

however its also true that passing privilege is a thing. A trans women who passes as female does face more of the social brutality than a trans man who passes as male. I think for that reason passing trans women should have recognition in feminism.

Passing trans men should be aware of their own privilege over both cis women, non passing trans men, and passing trans women

it is gross and shitty to mock trans women for their appearance in every circumstance 🙅🏽‍♀️

I think there is a problem with OSA trans identifying people who aren’t actually transgender, I’m not a trans medicalist, the term has been used to be transphobic especially to female trans people and nonbinary people of all sexes but especially female. In my experience OSA trans people have freq been sexist and homophobic because they’re not actually queer and just want to try on an identity for laughs. Not all but most. but i think radfems exaggerate the problem a bit.

trans people deserve protections and rights, at the same time, access to places specifically for other marginalized groups isn’t a human right.

this is all so well said!! i believe osa trans people do deserve a space in the lgbt, but a lot of them do genuinely just put on a label to feel more special.

– mod zoroark

[ciswomenofficial]

(i didn’t want this to be on your post because it seemed inappropriate so i’m sending an ask)

do you think that trans women can behave or act oppressively towards trans men? if it’s alright could you give some examples of oppressive behavior you’ve seen from trans men? you’re absolutely not required to answer and this ask comes in good health, ive been under the impression that trans men / trans women as entire groups can’t be oppressive towards either respective group but i’m not either so i don’t have much experience with the topic and would love to hear from someone firsthand ! /srs q

I mean, some individual trans women might be oppressive towards trans men, but not on account of their gender. In those instances, there’s usually another factor involved, in the USA, my context, most often class or race. This isn’t to say there’s no chauvinistic behavior among trans women, but for an action to be oppressive in particular there needs to be a structural element to it.

On the other hand, while they aren’t at the reigns of the American regime, there are structural forces that enable trans men and other tme trans people to gain relative amounts of influence compared to trans women and tma trans people. Passing trans men (who are more common as a result of the less scrutiny placed on mens bodies) are given access to jobs that women are not, are taken seriously when women are doubted, and those “women”include post-transitional tma people. This allows passing trans men the ability to use these systems to whip up misogynistic vitriol, to get away with abusive behaviors, etc.

On the other hand, trans men who aren’t passing have other systems, that don’t necessarily benefit them over all women, but that do allow them power over trans women. These systems are most open to whites, but I have seen them leveraged by members of the USA’s internalized neocolonies as well depending on context. These are the same institutions by which women can leverage femininity to oppressive ends (compare: the concept of white women tears, the concept of the tenderqueer). Trans mens access to these institutions is definitely more shaky than cis women’s access, but does exist, whereas trans women are rarely allowed access to these institutions, very occasionally one may be if she’s passing and presents femininity in a rigidly conventional way, but even that may require the right time and place of her.

Essentially, these institutions of femininity allow an individual to present themself as vulnerable for an amount of social capital. If they want to shut someone else up, or remove or ostracize someone from a space or community, all they have to do is act vulnerable. Whether this behavior is conscious or unconscious, it is certainly oppressive insofar as it uses systemic power to marginalize those with less power than them.

I have had both of these sorts of oppressiveness used against me. I have had trans men talk over me and bring my ideas within my own area of expertise into doubt on account of the fact that I was not as much of a masculine authority on the matter as they were, and I have also had trans men and cis women present themselves as vulnerable and treat me as a threatening presence and ruin my reputation based on misinformation in queer spaces. My experiences are also influenced by the fact that I am unashamedly a lesbian, mad, and a political radical, but I don’t doubt for a moment that the fact that I am a transsexual woman played a role, especially because me speaking up about transmisogyny often made me a target.

This kind of inter-community oppressiveness is not unprecedented. Gay men being oppressive to gay women was a factor in the shift of many lesbians away from the gay liberation movement and towards the feminist movement. Gay men do not run our heterosexual society, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t part of it, a part who gets certain benefits that gay women do not.

From being present in the trans community, I know plenty of trans women who are assholes, who have a lot wrong with them as human beings, but they still didn’t have access to this kind of systemic oppression to use against white tme people. Mostly they’re unpleasant at an individual scale and don’t have anyone to back them up. On the other hand, an otherwise good individual may act oppressive if you put them into the right context. Oppression isn’t about whether someone is nice to be around, or fundamentally good/bad it is about systemic oppression.

[pretty-girl-boy]

I just think its so funny when t*rfs say being trans is a mental illness but….. the person saying it is queer. babe. do you know what they said about gay people in the 50s?

“____ people are predators! keep them away from children!”

“____ are perverted, their lifestyle is a fetish, they’re deranged.”

“being ____ is a mental illness, we need to get these people ‘therapy’ and ‘treatment’ to convert them to a normal, cisheterosexual lifestyle, because any variation from a ‘normal’ expression is obviously a sign of a defective childhood, abuse, or trauma.”

“being ____ is a choice. if you just tried hard enough you could be normal.”

you could literally swap “gay” for “trans” and you’d have an identical set of morals. and it’s embarrassing to not recognize that.

“we need to protect women because they’re a marginalized identity!!!” ? and what do you think being trans is? most trans people I know are very vocal about wanting rights for all women, cis and trans. we want the same thing, which is for people of marginalized gender identities to not face discrimination, violence, or harassment, and to have a life full of joy. you’re so close.

if you just left your corner of the internet to read from trans queer perspectives (Leslie Feinberg, Kate Bornstein, etc), you would see that trans people have always been here, and we have always been loved by members of the queer community.

to say otherwise is to impose colonialism and patriarchy on the beautiful and varied human experience that is gender, that is both universal and particular, that is nuanced and (for some) can be reduced to simple terms. how can you say trans women are men appropriating women, or that trans men are self-hating women, when indigenous people from tribes all over the world, for centuries and centuries and millennia and millennia, have created trans identities outside of capitalism and patriarchy? where is the motivation to appropriate another gender for power struggles or a fetish when you live in a culture that already has gender equality?

instead of believing that trans people are inherently bad, wrong, perverted, why not believe that all people should be given the choice to express gender freely and without judgment? wouldn’t that benefit cis women as well?

why not listen to someone talk about their experience in good faith, and see their humanity before you see the things you hate about them? would you not wish the same thing for yourself, from your oppressor? how can we achieve equality when we actively oppress one another and will not hear each other? what is feminism without intersectionality? it cannot exist. it is an oxymoron. you either fight for the liberation of all people (yes, including cis men), or you fight for inequality.

you will never achieve the freedom you are looking for without trans people. you can never nicely and cleanly separate us from a movement without shooting your own foot in the process. liberating us will liberate yourself.

[makmalaon]

Dawdle: 5 years wasted on exploring my queer and non-binary identities

By exploring my queerness and non-binary identity, I meant experimenting with different gender expressions and sexualities. Queer and trans people make inclusivity one of their main selling points but it’s often a facade. BIPOC queers have terrible experiences regarding racism from white queer people. There’s animosity between different communities that’s often implicit like with bisexuals and homosexuals or binary trans individuals and Enbys. The overwhelming majority of the queer community in the west leans towards the far left in terms of politics which is notorious for infighting over minor grievances and disagreements which carry over to these lgbtqia+ spaces. 

Queer and trans spaces almost fetishize poverty. Marginalization is seen as a badge of honor or a way to gain social status but only if you’re white. When you’re non-white, the more marginalized you are then the more tokenized or ostracized you get. Instead of centering their notions of power on wealth and materialism like the average person, they focus on power and status games through social identities. These people use social issues or their oppression as a way to curry favors or climb up the ranks while pretending to be against hierarchies or claiming to be against them. These games are often nothing but pure mental masturbation meant to satiate the egos of the social climbers, energy vampires, and mentally ill people with personality disorders. 

There’s no right or wrong way to be queer or trans which is the cliche that people in these circles parrot and yet they all think, behave and dress in similar ways. They also mostly believe in more or less the same things but will get into feuds with one another because somebody only agrees with them on 98% of things. 

These stupid status games mainly benefit white queers and femmes. If they did a good job leading then I wouldn’t care as much but they often replicate the prejudices of their hetero and cis counterparts but in more insidious ways while doing just as bad of a job leading if not worse than they do. 

The world these people are building is no different to the current one we live in beyond having more polycules, hookups and people with unnatural colored hair. They might be slightly more compassionate towards the average marginalized person but the fact is that if they ran the world then hierarchies and inequality would still exist. It would more than likely exist on a similar scale. 

Being an AMAB non-binary person is a special type of hell because people assume the worst things about you and you’re at the bottom of the totem pole. You’re stereotyped as a predator or sex pest. If I was either of those things I would simply identify as a man because sex crimes wouldn’t have any meaningful consequences to my life. The president of the free world is a rapist. Many predatory and sexually deviant men go on to live normal lives, have successful entertainment careers, get in long term relationships or build profitable businesses. The world rewards these men. I don’t even gain any social brownie points from woke people because those are reserved for the whites. Being non-binary has brought me nothing but more suffering, ostracization and lost opportunities. Nobody would willingly choose to identify this way. 

All identities are hollow. Queerness, gender and sexual orientation are things we do or perform. A lot of the queer and trans groups I’ve participated in usually have a few regulars while most people join for a few meetings then never return because it’s exhausting to constantly talk about your identity. If the only things you have in common with a group of people are your gender, sexual orientation, politics,disability or any marginalized identities then it becomes a shallow and boring community where people harp on about the same topics over and over again. They’ll gravitate towards recreating hierarchies and have more convoluted rules for acceptable behavior. At some point, people want to live their lives and be free without being shackled to communities where social climbers are constantly fighting for what is and isn’t acceptable behavior. 

I’m not a materialistic person and I’ve come to this conclusion through life experiences, spirituality and my political views on consumption. That doesn’t change the fact that money is one of the most important things a person can have which is taboo to say in these woke circles but as someone who’s currently homeless while writing this post, 90% of my problems would be fixed if I had the money. 

Money is power and it buys us freedom, time and access to things poor or working and middle class people don’t have. I grew up in a slum in a third world country and despite the extreme poverty, a lot of the people I grew up with were relatively happy with very little resources because it’s the only way of life they knew and they gave up on trying to get a better life. I returned to that place as a teenager nearly 2 decades ago and the people were in awe of my working class life in Canada. I told them how much I made while working at McDonalds during the summer. They didn’t understand how conversion rates worked even when I explained it to them. 

My parents grew up thinking money wasn’t everything due to their Catholic upbringing but they lived relatively regular lives which I wouldn’t want to replicate. They looked down on people of lower socioeconomic status like most people and despised poor people due to the fact that many of the people I grew up with fit every negative stereotype people had about people in poverty. Poor people do have a crab in the bucket mentality and they’re not proactive when it counts. Most of the people who make my life hell are poor, homeless, working class, or middle class despite rich people passing laws that harm me on a systemic level because those are the people I’m forced to interact with.

Once you reach a certain age, everything becomes about money. Friendships don’t matter as much and they’re put to the side in favor of your romantic partner or building a family in which money is vital for a chance at success. You wonder if you’ll ever have enough to retire on or even afford a house. Millennials, Gen Z and younger generations effectively have no future due to the constant economic crises they’ve had to endure but you can’t think that way or you’ll fall into the trap of being a snarky, cynical, pessimistic, mean and nihilistic asshole like so many in those generations. 

Queer and trans people live in hell. No matter if we choose to participate in this world like our cis and hetero counterparts, we’re punished for it. Work a 9 to 5, become a sex worker, create an onlyfans, crack cards or do financial fraud. It doesn’t matter. It all leads to the same place. 

I don’t want to sit in a group filled with idealists who talk about gender and queer theory mixed with anti capitalist rhetoric. Whether I believe in socialism, communism or anarchism is irrelevant because I know these systems won’t exist on a large scale in my lifetime and people on the far left are more or less useless at organizing on a macro level and the fact that there’s no strong global leftist movement despite the rise of fascism throughout the world proves this. 

Most of the non-binary people I met have incoherent and convoluted views on gender. Enby’s don’t owe anyone an explanation but most of the ones I’ve met don’t have a good grasp on their own gender identity, they do believe in gender or traditional gender roles in some way and most of them do enforce some sort of standard for gender whether they admit it or not which boils down to androgynous supremacy but only for white people. If androgyny was the most important thing for these people then Asian people would dominate these communities based on their views on gender which many supposedly don’t believe in but these people are too racist to concede that. More often than not, they’re circle jerks for white Amabs who wear dresses, paint their nails and present in a feminine way or white Afabs who wear baggy men’s clothes, have short hair and present in a so-called masculine way. 

I’m glad I took this time to examine my queer, gender and sexual identities. As a teenager I repressed a lot of it because I knew it would be mostly pointless because using thoughts to subvert thought is a fruitless endeavor. There was always a voice in the back of my head telling me “What if” throughout my life and it didn’t go away until I caved in my late twenties. 

This isn’t an endorsement for people with a pick me mentality because I’ve met enough people like that to know that they’re repressed, fearful and miserable. It’s a reminder that no matter what we choose as non-conforming individuals, that people are awful. We’re forced to be exceptional and think of creative ways to earn a living and survive or we literally die. 

There’s no other option other than to save ourselves and if we’re lucky enough to help other people who helped us along the way then we’ll be better off for it. No amount of mentally masturbating over pretty ideas or utopian societies with other left wing, queer and trans people will change the fact that we live in a world where it’s survival of the fittest. We’re forced to work together with other people because that’s how the human species survived throughout its existence but ultimately queer people will never be accepted by most of the world and we have to do whatever we can to fend for ourselves. 

It’s not queer vs hetero, cis vs trans, left wing vs right wing, poor and working class vs the rich. It’s you vs the world and if you’re lucky then you’ll meet some friends along the way who want to help you. Most people are awful and rotten which is apparent by how awful the world is. The collective world could easily fix world hunger and homelessness through basic policies and a cultural shift towards building more empathetic, compassionate and thoughtful communities but that’s not the world most of us live in.

To the people still trying to figure out their place in the world through their gender identity, queerness and political ideology then I’m telling you that it’s largely a waste of time. There was never really anything to figure out. You’re fine as you are and it doesn’t matter what labels you use because they’re often just ways for people online to gain social currency rather than a way to get a better understanding of yourself. 

The self is always changing. Self exploration is often self masturbatory and leads to nowhere meaningful. Regardless of how you choose to identify, the world is awful and cruel when you’re lgbtqia+ and that won’t change anytime soon. Reading queer and far left theory is a fine hobby but it doesn’t benefit you in any material way nor does it necessarily improve your quality of life. The world will be capitalist for the foreseeable future and left wing people are ineffective at organizing or building intentional communities. Cisgender and heterosexual people en masse will always hate those who don’t belong to their identities. 

At least with enough money you have the freedom to unplug from most of this bullshit and live life as you see fit. Queer and leftist communities often devolve into hugboxes. They’re just as power hungry, vindictive, spiteful and prejudiced as the people they claim to be against but they’re more passive aggressive, snarky, cynical and self righteous. 

The non-binary and gender non-coforming crowd are the weird kids of the trans community. The queers are the weirdos of the lgbtqia+ world and the asexuals and aromantics are the weird nerds even among the queer demographic. 

I feel a deep sense of freedom because I don’t have to adhere to the expectations that most people do since I’m homeless, non-binary and queer. Everything I do is eclipsed by that and no matter how meaningful the work that I put out in the world is, it won’t matter because most people can’t look past these things that I happen to be. 

I can simply write and create things for the sake of it. I’m free to start business ventures to make money instead of lathering layers of self-important bullshit about saving the world like Silicon Valley. I no longer want to participate in far left and queer circles because they often feel like politics and activism for the losing side while the narcissistic self-righteous vultures fight over scraps of influence, power and social capital at the behest of actual marginalized people. 

I’m glad I spent this time exploring this side of myself because even if I’m still unsure of who I am or what I want to be, I know who I’m not and I’m better off knowing who I don’t want to be or who I don’t want to surround myself with. I’ve accepted that my views on my gender are too complicated for the vast majority of the world and it’s a complete waste of time trying to make them understand. The communities I mentioned are not productive for people like me to join because they don’t provide me much value. I prefer meeting people on an individual basis and judging them on their actions rather than through their identity and where they fall on the woke caste system. 

[anticanada-liberation-front]

People organize on the basis of a common oppression more than anything else.

The difference between the physically disabled, mentally disabled, queer people and other marginalized groups is more about the specific institutions which oppressed them than anything fundamental about whether something really is or is not a "disability".

Basically, it's more about the type of doctor you see (physical therapist, psychiatrist, conversion therapist and so on) rather than what is and what is not a disability or a "real doctor" or "real impairment or disease".

You're a faggot if you're called a faggot basically.

In this same sort of sense, David Reimer experienced forms of intersex oppression. David Reimer was physically assigned female at birth. Chromosomes and so on aren't the important bit, the important bit is being oppressed.

The oppression of mobility-aid users is different from mentally disabled people who do not use mobility aids.

A lot of feminists don't get that feminization is an experience of common patriarchal oppression not a physical condition. You are feminized when you get called a bitch and sexually dominated. A lot of marginalized men are feminized. There are degrees of feminization that cis women do not experience. Closeted trans women tend to experience a ton of violent feminisation. Trans men are misgendered and feminized a lot.

Same stuff applies to cripplepunk and so on.

Not sure where I'm going with this.

[genderflood]

i think there is no hard and fast solution. overall i think this is cropping up because folks want cis men more or less excluded, and because they want less of a "sausage fest" vibe (forgive me this is verbiage i have picked up in my local gay+ scene). for example, there is an S&M play party happening in my town later this month that states they are for "women and trans community" and/or "queer." but they have a vetting process and I requested my friend who is cis male send them a note, because he is queer-aligned by virtue of being intimate with me, and i mean that sincerely lol. i am masc-aligned but femme-presenting (nonbinary man). most would look at me and assume i was a cis femme-aligned leather type. which is not incorrect. but it is incorrect to assume that we are a straight pairing, and that he is there with violent barbaric cis-male intentions (not my feelings i'm just exaggerating what i think a lot of folks are concerned about, lol). he also has a wheelchair and is overall an excellent ally to marginalized community members, and he questioned whether he should apply to be vetted and i assured him why not try. first of all i want him there at my side. i love him, he is my friend! i wanna get saddle bags on his wheelchair. it's gonna be such a sexy and wholesome vibe. and if someone has an issue we should be able to talk about it right then and there. luckily the kink+ community is default pretty inoculated by the discourse to begin with. not a lot can happen without consent and people being more or less on the same page.

i think more often than not we are going to find that we have to communicate with each other and get a feel for who does and experiences what in our spaces. if we are going to have any kind of "safe space," especially in spaces where there are by default some defenses down (such as at a play party or drag show where people could be coming in and out, some people on substances, some cis and/or gay men cruising, which they DEFINITELY should be able to do whenever that is appropriate), how else are we going to keep people safe without opening ourselves up to some of the discomfort that comes with community immersion? usually the exclusionary mentalities are based on oppressive assumptions and should be questioned anyway.

overall I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that woman should not be seen as safe by default, and man should not be seen as unsafe by default. we absolutely should take a long and hard look at and think on the language we use, especially among our lovers and friends. i think exclusion in general is a bad policy, especially at the expense of transwomen et al. because overall that makes violent assumptions about people's bodies and where they belong. i just wanted to share my experience & concerns in hopes that it could potentially resonate with or help someone. i am open to questions & critiques :)

I've been seeing a disturbing number of "queer safe spaces" describe themselves as things like "femme & them" and even worse "she+," conflating femininity & nonbinaryhood. cease this immediately. say it with me: nonbinary people are NOT women-lite and it is extremely violent and straight up incorrect to imply that all they/thems are fem adjacent. this is erasure and this verbiage does nothing but make gnc and nonbinary spaces unsafe for masc and male nonbinary people. nonbinary, genderqueer and other third gender people can be and are masculine and men, we can be hes as well as shes and theys, stop allowing yourself and your peers to view nonbinary as woman/femme-lite, signed a butch nonbinary person.

[a-controversial-bean]

The main reason I made this blog is honestly because I am so sick of the lack of nuance I see around the term "transandrophobia"

My stance is that transandrophbia is a real thing we should draw attention to, but also that most people talking about it do so in the most annoying and/or hateful ways.

Just like trans women/fems experience gendered violence and discrimination that is different from cis women, so do trans men/mascs. We're not "woman lite" but much of the world still treats us that way. Although cis men carry a gender with privilege over all others, trans men do not (except in cases where they are cis-passing, and even then, that privilege gets revoked the second you're outed). We experience a flavor of misogyny, but the term transmisogyny describes a specific type of misogyny that trans women experience. Stealing that term would obviously be wrong, hence the creation of the term transandrophbia.

Personally, I think the term itself could use some more workshopping, but it's not like I have any better suggestions at this time either. I just don't think the term clearly expresses how we're talking about a specific gendered discrimination that impacts trans mascs in a way that cis men, cis women, and trans fems don't go through. This isn't saying that we have it any worse than trans fems. God no. That's part of why I'm so annoyed at many folks discussing transandrophbia. Creating a hierarchy of who faces worse oppression is bullshit. Trans women/fems are oppressed in our current constructions of gender and sex. So are trans men/mascs. So are cis women. And nonbinary people. And intersex people of literally any gender. I'm all for the creation of terms to describe these unique experiences! What I hate is trying to pit these terms against each other.

I often see white trans mascs trying to use racial comparisons to explain this, and it pisses me the fuck off. Don't do that. You're making all of us look bad and embarrassing yourself when you show such a lack of understanding towards intersectionaliity. However, I do think there are other comparisons that work better!

Specifically, disability has a GREAT comparison to draw from. It even has a few (false) binaries you can use to make your point!

All disabled people face ableism in some way or another, just like all marginalized genders face their own flavor of misogyny. People like to separate the disabled into categories like low/high support needs, visible/invisible, and physical/mental. Someone labeled as high support needs is often denied agency, while low support needs folks are often denied accommodations. Visible disabilities will have people asking too many uncomfortable and invasive questions, while invisible ones will have people saying you don't "look disabled". But at the end of the day, it's all just ableism. Repackaged to fit the individual, but ableism none the less. It can be convenient though to quickly say which category of ableism you experience, rather than drone on about details.

I would rather say "I experience transandrophbia" than explain how "I experience a kind of misogyny where my transness means people either see me as a failed woman or a creepy man depending on what's more convenient for their narrative. Living as a trans guy, especially in the years where I still had H cups on my chest, led to increased violence and bigotry in my life. In cis circles I'm rejected for being trans, and in queer circles I'm rejected for embracing my masculinity. Unless I surround myself with only trans mascs, my gender almost always makes me an outcast. " Even that statement is a super simplified and condensed version of the gendered violence I faced. Am I not allowed a term to succinctly express that sentiment?

Tldr: If you deny that trans men/mascs experience transandrophbia, then I hate you. If you use transandrophbia to shit on trans women/fems, then I also hate you.