#as irredeemable as he is he still has an entire arc about redeeming himself like 20 years later

[zombiified]

i think its funny how, despite EVERYTHING he’s done, krakrofis isnt even the worst character in stray nightmare

[ishomieokay]

Ok, so I just made a post about Homelander having the most tragic backstory in The Boys so I want to expand a bit on that (although literally no one asked, lmao).

Look, this isn't even about Homelander having the saddest backstory ever. Being turned into a guinea pig in order to create a super weapon is literally a cliché in superhero fiction.

The difference, methinks, is that the only character in his verse with an equally horrific origin story is Soldier Boy. But, take into account: Soldier is 1) another irredeemable villain, and 2) we're basically told he ended up in that situation because he was the most violent, petty, sexist, homophobic, fucked-up man who ever lived. Homelander was litterally just... born in the lab.

For some context, look at this guy:

Magneto has one of the saddest backstories in superhero fiction. And I'm not exaggerating here. My man literally grew up in Auschwitz. But his backstory works in a way that Homelander's doesn't because we ARE supposed to sympathize with Erik. We are supposed to understand the motivations behind his actions, even if we don't condemn them. There's also many other characters in the X-Men's universe who have gone through similar ordeals, because humans being awful and ostracizing others for being different is like, A Main Theme of the comics.

Meanwhile, Homelander's backstory seems to just be an excuse for him to be insane, scary and disturbing. The show never frames it as a reason to sympathize with him. Now, don't get me wrong. I'll be the first one to admit that Homelander's fucked up psychology allows for some pretty metal scenes, and I do enjoy them. But the fact that we're just meant to laugh at that while never really contemplating the implications of what happened to him is bafling to me.

Hey, look at that guy, he was deeply traumatized from a young age, and growing up, he was neither socialized nor given the basic tools a child needs to develop a personality or form basic human connections. Now he's super disturbed, has weird kinks and doesn't really understand how to be a human. Haha, hilarious!

What makes it even worse is that the main characters, who we are supposed to be rooting for, have stories that are for the most part unsympathetic or make no sense.

The backstory of Hughie, our main guy, is that his girlfriend died. We're off to a bad start because we hate the Dead Girlfriend Trope here. He's banging a new chick like, a week later (?) and then rarely thinks about Robin again.

We have Frenchie, a guys who kills people and it makes him sad (?), but he never really stops.

Annie and M.M. have sympathetic stories with good motivations, but they are not really expanded upon. At times, it really feels like Annie is just there to have Relationship Problems with Hughie. Which, you know, doesn't make any fucking sense because she's the face of the nation-wide political movement that opposes Homelander. By all accounts, SHE should be Homelander's nemesis, not Butcher. And instead we get a rivalry with Firecracker? Seriously?

In the first seasons, M.M was literally just There. Then, we get his backstory with Soldier Boy, but for some reason his generic Divorced Dad arc is a priority over that. Great.

With Maeve we had the potential of an amazing backstory, but again, it's not really expanded upon. It's implied that she had a dysfunctional relationship with Homelander, but we don't really know what happened. Was it consensual? Was it entirely coerced? Was it abusive? If it was, what did he do to her? How did she manage to break up with him without getting killed in the process? Like, we're missing so much context with Maeve, it's not even funny.

Then, we have A-Train, who starts off on a path to redeem himself inspired by the death of his girlfriend, whom he killed himself (?). Then he realizes that Homelander Must Be Stopped because he makes fatphobic comments (?????). He gets his brother paralyzed and kills a guy to take revenge (still unsure if that was supposed to be a heroic act, tbh). And then finally he earns his redemption by taking a guy to the hospital (?????????) and that's enough for Hughie to forgive him for KILLING HIS GIRLFRIEND. Bitch, what?? It's the worst redemption arc I've ever seen and people are literally comparing it to Zuko's. Get my man out of your mouth!!!

And finally, Butcher, a guy whose entire story and motivations are based on something that happened to someone else. Why did we ever make Becca's rape about him??? And THEN it just turns into the typical Dead Girlfriend Trope. I mean, S3 was the only time when his character arc made any sense to me because it was actually dealing with interesting themes like cycles of abuse and bad parenting, but his story in other seasons is really not It.

Literally, the only exception to all of this is Kimiko. Who is also violent and unstable, who also can't stop killing and is unapologetic about it because she is what they made her. But for some reason we're supposed to sympathize her but not with Homelander. Weird take, but ok.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that you need to sympathize with the Nazi rapist. I'm just calling out the writers for being bad, lmao.

[natureboy96]

In Support of Tamlin - characters who have done terrible things and been redeemed

Here we go with another one :p I think that Tamlin has done things that are unforgivable, mostly his abusive treatment towards Feyre. I don't think this one terrible thing makes him irredeemable, and has made effort to be better than he was at his worst, and I do dislike the thought of people/characters being judged solely by their worst actions without a chance to be better. So, in support of the idea that Tamlin deserves a redemption arc for his good deeds after his bad ones, I want to start compiling a list of characters who, like Tamlin, have done terrible things and still found a way to be better, if not good outright. And of course, SPOILERS FOR THE FOLLOWING CHARACTERS/STORIES

Feel free to add your own in response, in the comments or in reblogs!

Zuko, from Avatar: the Last Airbender - his actions: lead a chase to kidnap the avatar, physically fighting and hurting the main cast, burning a village down, threatening violence on citizens, stealing goods and food from citizens, helping overthrow an entire kingdom, betraying his Uncle who only wanted him to be the best he could be. His redemption: trains Aang to fight and defeat his abusive father, thus saving the nation he helped conquer and the world at large while helping the individual members of the main cast with personal problems, apologizes to his Uncle.

Loki, from the MCU - his actions: acts of terrorism, murder and betrayal of his family, mind controlling people to do evil against their will, multiple attempts at murdering his brother. His redemption: After the death of his mother, Loki works with Thor to avenge her death and later unite against world ending threats multiple times

Filip Nagata, from The Expanse: His actions: the son of a megalomaniac, he commits multiple murders in the name of his father and is in part responsible for dropping asteroids on earth, killing millions of people in the event and aftermath. He kidnaps his mother and physically strikes her, at his father's encouragement. His redemption: this one is ongoing, last we see. After his mother's words while she was held prisoner make him realize how much pain he inflicted, he leaves his father's ship, changes his last name to his mother's and spends the rest of his life trying to do good, knowing it won't ever make up for the harm he was a part of causing. not sure if it counts as redemption fully, but it's an attempt to do better with the life his mother helped save.

The Beast, from Beauty and the Beast: His actions: He was a cruel and selfish youth, turned away old ladies into the cold, raged and berated his servants, imprisons Belle's father then takes her prisoner in exchange, intimidates and frightens Belle with his rage, threats and destruction of property. His redemption: saves Belle from a pack of wolves, learns to be considerate of her needs and interests and how to be kind, releases her from his captivity when he realizes he has feelings for her and she needs to rescue her father

Baptiste, from Overwatch: His actions: working with an infamous mercenary which was responsible for several high profile assassinations and civilian casualties. His redemption: Leaving said mercenary group and trying to use his healing knowledge to help where he can.

Luke Castellan, from Percy Jackson Series: His actions: looking for revenge against his father, he works with the evil titan Kronos to try and overthrow the gods, rallying armies of monstrous creatures, stealing from the gods and attempting murder on his friends multiple times, nearly bringing about the end of the world. His redemption: after attempting to flee and abandon Kronos' army when it became too much for him, he ultimately stops the titan from being fully reborn by sacrificing himself, dispersing the titan's essence so he could never (hopefully) reform and be a threat again.

Alexis Rose, from Schitt's Creek: Her actions: She acts selfishly in regards to her needs/wants, lies to Ted about wanting to marry him to avoid difficult conversations and sleeps with Mutt while they were engages. Her redemption: Alexis learns to become a better, well rounded person, recognizes her mistakes and takes ownership for them by apologizing, And becomes a person willing to put another person's happiness and needs above her own, even if it means losing someone she loves.

Michael, from The Good Place: His actions: as a literal demon, he's spent innumerable years torturing humans in the afterlife, making it his goal to create new and innovative methods of torture when he creates the false Good Place. His redemption: after being forced to ally with the humans he had planned on torturing to save himself, he comes to understand human morality and becomes a deeply moral person himself, at points willing to sacrifice himself to save the humans he'd initially intended to torture and working to make the afterlife a better place for all humanity.

Ebenezer Scrooge, from A Christmas Carol: His actions: Aside from being personally stingy with his money, he is cruel to everyone he interacts with, including his employee and his nephew, giving the former barely enough to support his large family despite the work he does. His redemption: after seeing where his life went wrong, so to speak, and how his actions impact his present and his future, he decides to become kinder and more generous with his money and affection, making sure Tiny Tim receives the care needed so he lives to grow up.

[darkfire359]

What could have been: sympathizing with Ed in season 2

I've talked before about how much I love Ed and all his complexity. I've written more fanfic about him and Izzy than any other characters, in my entire history of fandom. And unlike many people, I wasn't unprepared for the dark direction his arc took in season 2; I wanted him to commit MORE atrocities, and I happily made comparisons between him and another one of my favorite characters, Hannibal Lector.

But one of the key things I wanted after he committed atrocities was for him to feel bad about it. And I thought we'd see that! After all, S1 Ed was so tormented about killing his dad (who was abusive and violent towards) him that he never killed (directly) again! He was so broken up about trying to kill Stede in s1e6 that he ended up crying in a bathtub. Just like he cried in the window sill after committing all the kraken horrors in s1e10. It seemed like this was a guy scared of his own inner darkness, convinced he was a monster, who would go around saying things like "I'm not a good person" and "You were always going to realize who I am."

And so even when s2 went darker than anyone expected—when he cut off more of Izzy's toes, and shot him in the leg, and made crewmen fight to the death for experiencing love, and sailed the entire ship into a storm to murder-suicide his crew—I was still ready to accept all that moral ambiguity and give him a hug afterwards. Because of course, I figured that after Ed was brought out of that dark place and those suicidal urges, he would feel horrible remorse. How could he not?

I was looking forward to seeing him break down crying, convinced he was an irredeemable, unforgivable monster. (Which of course, would make it all the more touching when people inevitably did forgive him, and when he did redeem himself). Maybe Ed would even go too far with trying to atone, like in Mercy, one of my favorite post-s1 fics. Probably, I figured, Ed's quest for redemption would be one of the main themes in the second half of season 2.

So it was strange to watch e4, when Ed looked nothing but annoyed at everyone for chaining him up and banishing him, and then he went to hang out with his old friends like he'd done nothing wrong. When after the crew unanimously voted him out, Stede brought him back to the ship literally that same evening, and Ed saw no problem with that. Okay... maybe he's still processing?

Then e5 came, and that episode was about Ed's redemption. Yay! Except... Ed didn't seem to care? Other people made him wear the bag and the bell. He asked how long it'd take people to get over it, guessing "like a day." He gave an influencer-esque non-apology to the crew. He said "I took a man's leg" rather than calling Izzy by name. He literally doesn't remember the circumstances of pushing Lucius off the boat. He does ultimately give a real apology to Fang—for tormenting him years ago, rather than anything from his actual kraken era. I love e5 for the Izzy+Stede dynamic, but watching Ed be an unrepentant asshole here is painful. There is nothing about this that convinces me Ed wouldn't slide right back to being evil if Stede were to leave again.

And the thing is, it didn't have to be like this! We could have gotten Ed breaking down crying with guilt like in s1e6, and it would have made him much more sympathetic—not to mention the fact that Ed really is just an adorable cryer. Alternatively, we could have had some real deep diving about why Ed never apologizes (is he afraid of seeming weak?) or why he's so uncaring about others' pain (has he seen too many friends die over the years, to the point of going numb?)

By episode 6, it seems like most characters have moved on. Stede says something about Ed turning poison into positivity, which feels completely unearned. He pays for the party—but he'd previously tried to make the crew throw their cut of the loot into the ocean. He makes some attempts to best Ned and protect Stede, but Stede ends up saving the crew instead—from a pirate who only showed up in the first place because Ed was intentionally trying to piss him off. Ed is sad that Stede kills someone, and this would be a great time to again make Ed sympathetic! To have him talk about how he doesn't want that for Stede, because his own violence has weighed on him so deeply. But nope.

E6 does see Ed actually apologize to Izzy—and he's terrible at it. He's just like, "Sorry about your leg," makes no eye contact, and flees immediately afterwards. We do see some hints that this shitty apology isn't really indicative of Ed's true feelings, given how he has those flashbacks to the scenes of hurting Izzy seemingly haunting him; but it's very brief. It would be a great time to address Ed's horrific tendency towards conflict-aversion and avoiding awkward conversations in relationships—the same tendency that made s1 Ed never inform Izzy that the plan to kill Stede and the Revenge crew had changed. This would be another great opportunity to help us sympathize with Ed again—to have us see how it's not that he doesn't want to communicate these things, it's that these conversations are terribly stressful and anxiety-inducing for him. But nah, why would OFMD need to include those things for Ed?

E7 happens, and still nothing. If anything, there was a great opportunity for Ed to at least show himself to be a kind person to Stede—maybe nobly stepping in to save the day, even though he's annoyed that Stede's getting all this attention now. You know, like Stede did for him back in s1e5, when the situation was reversed. But nope, Ed runs off to be a fisherman, not having learned any of the earlier season's lessons about whims. He only stops being a fisherman because he's bad at it.

I was still hoping for something big in e8–some huge selfless, gesture that Ed would do to cover for all of his inability to do the little gestures. Ed is good at grand gestures! Swimming back to the ship after he left, then taking the Act of Grace in s1 was HUGE. Very selfless, very sweet! He could have done something like that for Izzy, Lucius, and the traumatized crew. Some kind of heroic gesture to help others more than himself. But nope. In some sense, Izzy dying is one of the greatest indications of Ed's wasted potential, because we narratively had a great opportunity for Ed to be able to save someone... but he didn't.

(Admittedly, Ed is not a complete dick here—he helps Izzy when he's limping, he says some genuinely apologetic stuff when Izzy's dying, and he finally gives Izzy his attention and care. But then after the funeral, he's still like "Well, that's that.")

It's so frustrating. It's not that I don't want to like Ed, or that I don't want to sympathize with him. I really, REALLY do! I don't even need Ed to successfully do anything to earn forgiveness! I'd take Ed trying and failing. I'd take him wanting to try, but being so convinced of his monstrousness that he never makes the attempt. But give me something. Anything other than the unexamined apathy that he has so much of the time.

The thing is, s2 lost the ability for Ed's mistreatment of people to be just another "of course he's violent, he's a pirate" quirk. They were pretty explicit about how abusive Ed was (Jim's comment in e1, the joke in e4 people assumed Ed had hit Stede) and how much he traumatized people (Lucius and the whole crew very clearly have PTSD in episodes 4 and 5). This is serious stuff, which he did to other main characters, which is going to make a lot of viewers look at him pretty harshly.

And that's manageable—Hannibal Lector managed to be most textbook-abusive asshole in the world, committing atrocities and generally being unrepentant left and right, and viewers STILL found him lovable and sympathetic. You can do that! But you need to:

a. make it clear that anyone with the relevant information calls them out for being awful, even multiple episodes later

b. make it clear that they care deeply and genuinely about their wronged loved ones

c. make them willing to actually make REAL sacrifices

I watched so many people start to dislike or outright hate Ed in season 2. It made me really sad. But I couldn't blame them for feeling that way. For all that Ed is supposedly one of the two protagonists in OFMD—a character whose mistakes should be the most understandable, whose mental state should be the most resonant—the show seemed to entirely drop the ball on writing him as such.

[zai-doodles]

In your fairy tail will Laxus be different, guy was too much of a prick to accept his change of heart or that "deep down, he's a good guy", he threatened to kill the entire city just because he had daddy issues.

i have so many opinions ive been avoiding answering this until i had time to write an essay so here you go.

So, i personally, feel like fairy tail has a really weird habit of having characters do extremely irredeemable shit, say several times that the character is enjoying what their doing, then have their character do a 180 several arcs later because after fighting fairy tail they just saw the light or some shit.

Like i was rewatching the Battle of Fairy Tail arc and lauxus is just... so awful? and the way they try to redeem him with the spell shit not working like sir he was going to kill everyone maybe we dont give him a pass?

all this to say heres how I would rewrite the battle of fairy tail:

Ok so i'd keep Laxus' resentment of Makorav over the banishment of his dad, the only thing keeping laxus in ft is knowing one day hes going to inherit the guild. He works his ass off to become as powerful as he can in order to live up to that legacy but also...

He hates it there.

Specifically, the ones who grew up in the guild (ie erza, mira, natsu, gray, etc) because he always felt like makorav embraced them more than laxus.

So he works hard and keeps his head down, picking fights more out of resentment than anything the other guild members did. I think some of the older guild members who remember Ivan are very wary of Laxus but not afraid just... keeping an eye out.

Laxus reads it as pity.

Once Laxus grows up, hes arrogant, entitled, and selfish. He puts his everything into becoming the best and surrounds himself with yes men (the thunder legion im getting to them) who boost his ego.

Then one day he overhears some fairy tail members spreading a rumor that Makorav is going to retire...

And Erza is going to become the next guild master.

And it fucking breaks something inside him.

I think Laxus resents Erza the most because its just so clear Makorav favors her over everyone. Shes so perfect and humble and honorable and...

Everything Laxus isn't.

So he sets up a plan. He's going to take the guild by force.

ok so it happens basically the same as canon right up until the end. Before the timer runs out Laxus demands Makorav hand the guild over to him before all these people get hurt.

Makorav shows up to confront laxus and instead of doing or saying anything, he just quietly walks up to laxus and stands in front of him.

Laxus starts to panic and yells about how the old man has to give up or everyone is going to die. Outside fairy tail is taking down the dome but its not enough.

Laxus grows more erratic but Makorav says nothing.

The timer runs out and nothing happens.

Laxus sighs in defeat. He's been caught.

He was bluffing.

See the plan laxus and the thunder legion made was simple, they'd prove themselves the strongest by beating the entire guild and once everyone was taken out, makorav would have no choice to hand the guild over since no one was left to stop the thunder dome.

the body link magic still hurt any attackers just to make them seem more real, but they were only really there to pressure Makorav into caving.

Laxus didnt account for his grandpa having faith in him.

However the power grab couldn't be ignored, attacking the guild and even just threatening the city leads to laxus getting banished.

The thunder legion decide to leave fairy tail but laxus forbids them from following him anymore, not feeling worthy of being their leader anymore. So the thunder legion kinda just go off on their own as a trio for the time being.

Idk if this feels lame to others but to me its better than having laxus fully believe hes going to kill everyone and go through with it (even if the spell didnt work) only to redeem him later. It just feels weird to me? idk im not a great writer but this is just my lil rewrite.

as a treat have my bickslow redesign

shhh ik its not v good im still work shopping it but this is like, my third attempt so just take it for now

[reachexceedinggrasp]

Have you seen the recent Adam driver interview re: redeemed Ben solo never being part of the original plans? Apparently JJs idea as pitched to Adam was 'reverse Vader' who begins the trilogy all uncertain and vulnerable and becomes super evil by the third film 😂 considering the mess that was duel of the fates, I'm not surprised. Adam said he was still 'focused' on JJs original arc even though it changed over shooting. Which is baffling to me, because even in TFA you can't seriously believe this character could go stone cold uber sinister. It's terrible how so many good things in the sequel trilogy are there in spite of tptb, not because of them!

I haven't and honestly at this point I don't even want to hear anything else about what a complete fucking shitshow of stupidity and sociopathy this whole production was.

The idea that TFA isn't setting up a redemption is so absurd to me that I'm not even going to entertain it. I don't believe that even JJ is that incompetent, and his commentary plus TROS indicates that he did absolutely understand that Ben must be reclaimed despite his total disregard for the themes and message of SW. So whatever Adam was talking about, I don't know, and I'm not going to listen to this interview to try to figure it out because I'm tired. Maybe he's referring to the earliest ideas where Kylo Ren wasn't the same person as Han and Leia's child?

But in that case I just cannot imagine why they wanted to cast him in that role.

Leaving aside that the entire concept of a 'reverse Vader' is the stupidest shit I've ever heard, because that was a) literally the prequel trilogy, b) antithetical to SW as anything other than a prelude to a subsequent redemption, and c) SO FUCKING BORING. I know this isn't the first time Adam has mentioned this, but it only sounds more stupid the more clear he makes it that they mean 'the opposite of the ending of RotJ'. Which is just 'the ending of every fucking American action movie fucking ever'. Like putting a 'spin' on Vader by having him NOT REDEEM HIMSELF is just called 'being like everyone else' and 'taking away literally the most compelling thing about Vader'.

I need these boring, unimaginative HACKS to fuck off. Like, the idea that JJ's pitch for TFA was 'worse, more boring, less visually creative, less meaingful, more shallow remake of ANH but also we will ruin the heart and soul of the story and make it like all the libertarian slop it literally existed in order to stand against'.

LIKE JAIL FOR THIS MAN. JAIL!

I saw someone say that it's also come out that the reylo connection was Kasdan's idea, which I feel vindicated by bc I've been saying I bet it was forever. But again, JJ was on board for it and knew what he was doing with the imagery in TFA. He is not so incompetent that he didn't understand he was creating romantic subtext. And text.

But like, I'm just so done with these fucking people. That ANYONE at that company much less apparently EVERYONE?? thought it was remotely acceptable to use SW to tell the story of any character whatsoever who was humanised and sympathetic and relatable to children falling into darkness and becoming ''''''irredeemable'''''' MUCH LESS the LAST SKYWALKER, the HOPE AND HAPPY ENDING OF ROTJ, HAN AND LEIA'S LOVE, PADMÉ'S LOVE, the atonement and reconciliation of Darth Vader is just FUCKING BANANAPANTS to me.

George Lucas should fight these people in an alley.

[eriexplosion]

I know I've posted about this before, but I have been going out of my tumblr bubble a little more to find discussion of this episode and honestly I am still surprised by the amount of argument over if Crosshair Deserves a redemption, in a show where not only is redemption a big thing but... most redeemed villains have done so much more than Crosshair has.

Like, the general implication is he got his chip out after Bracca - I've seen some theories that it's when we see him in the medbay after episode three, which is possible but his personality shift doesn't seem to happen until after Bracca, so I think it's a good assumption that everything before that is his chip. Leaving aside discussions of culpability in clones given that they are literally raised from infancy to follow orders and the effects of what an enhanced chip might do to the brain, this means that the things we see Crosshair do that is at least mostly of his own will are:

He shot Senator Taa with a nonfatal headshot which is apparently a thing he can do, though after his display in Solitary Clone I guess that's not surprising.

Lured in the batch to make his misguided attempt at selling the Empire with the worst sales pitch known to man. Killed his imperial squad in the process (this isn't really a bad thing but you know, including it as Some Murders He Did)

Decided to stay with the Empire, proceeded to sit on that platform for 32 days and then spend several months in his jammies waiting for medical clearance since the gap between seasons is much more than that single month judging from Omega's growth spurt.

Killed Governor Tawni and I stick to my argument that this was timed to when Cody was being threatened with consequences, but it's the most clearly Awful thing he's done.

When left to his own devices he's a shit talking bitch. While considered rude, this is not illegal and others are willing to engage in 'talk shit get hit' with him over it.

In a show where the majority of redemptions go to people that have participated in genocides, torture, and so forth with fewconflicted emotions until their ultimate redemption arc, I just do not know why people are so quick to put him in the Irredeemable Box. (I've literally seen articles that did it as early as episode three where he was still considered unambiguously chipped but suddenly MIND CONTROL IS NO EXCUSE)

He has been clearly struggling with himself the entire show. Most of his actions sit in kind of a murky area because we don't know what's going on in his head because I don't think HE knows what's going on in his head and if he does he's not being honest about it anyway. Let the poor little meow meow breathe damn it.

[yall-hate-kids-tourney]

Katsuki Bakugou

Y'all Hate Teens Propaganda

(cw bullying, abduction, implied death threats)

"Bakugou has an explosive personality and tends to be rather aggressive. He was a bully as a kid, but it's clear to anyone who's up to date with My Hero Academia that that is not all he is. As a teenager he's going through a lot of growth. He has apologized to his former bullying victim, has changed his ways, and there is a lot he can be praised for. He's determined, dedicated, loyal to his friends, and ultimately a good person who makes an effort to change and become better. He looks up to All Might, the hero who's famous for saving as many people as possible with a smile on his face. 

People hate him for doing stupid things that kids and teens often do. They reduce him to his mistakes and ignore all the ways in which he's changed and evolved. "

-

"Bakugo does not start out nice. He’s rude, egotistical, and most of all, a bully. He repeatedly dogs on Izuku, outright telling him to…uh…pursue the possibility of rebirth, as it were. Bakugo boasts about how he’s gonna be the only one from his school to make it into UA, the ultimate hero school.

But then…things happen, one after another. He’s captured by a sludge villain, and Izuku tries to save him. He makes it into UA, but so does Izuku. He fights him in a class activity, but while he technically beats him in a fight, he loses the activity, and is shown up by his peers. Bakugo goes from the top of the pecking order to being a social outcast (save for Kirishima). Things come to a head during the summer camp arc, where Bakugo is kidnapped by the League of Villains as a prospective recruit. While he’s rescued, the resulting fight depowers his idol, All Might. When the entire class tries to get their hero licenses, he’s one of two students to not get his. He ends up fighting Izuku later on, finally revealing that he blames himself for All Might losing his powers. All Might assures him otherwise, but it still lingers in his mind.

Fast forward some years. After a mission goes horribly wrong and the main bad guys basically erode all trust in heroes, Izuku is out on his own, having turned away from his class. When they all go out to recover him, Bakugo takes one of the central charges. From there, once they all manage to get Izuku calm…Bakugo apologizes.

He puts it in no uncertain terms. He was an ass. He was held in high regard as a child, and felt threatened any time that world view was challenged. It’s not an excuse, and he acknowledges that. He lays out in no uncertain terms that Izuku is better than he is.

Yes, Bakugo was a jerk starting out who was a complete bully of a character with few redeeming qualities…but the series never praised him for that. It was the point of his arc, having to learn to accept humility, and come to terms with his own failings. People act like he’s irredeemable in a series with serial killers, abusive parents, complete monsters, and Mineta. But we all knew a Bakugo. Heck, maybe we still do. Someone who had to learn to be kind later than others…and someone who eventually did."

[irontragedyreview]

I remember that last year when the war and the first clashes began there were a lot of analyzes that said and justified why bk should be there with Izuku saving Tomura. The point was that even throughout the previous year and recent episodes of bk against AFO, this situation would have been stupid (I won’t deny that even Horikoshi can throw some shit to give more spotlight to bk, it would not be the first time), but there is no a real reason for bk to want to save Tomura, because in the manga it was never shown that he thought about villians or even heroes society. I say this as someone who is not entirely satisfied with how the situations between the heroes and villains were raised because even if characters like Izuku, Ochako and Shoto demonstrated to have a broader vision on the subject, their situations are also made as exceptional cases that don’t encompass the rest, I would have liked Horikoshi to have been more about Izuku's thoughts and society in his solo arc that was abruptly cut off by the power of friendship, I think it would have been more interesting.

But returning to the topic of bk, Horikoshi proposed to the character how to grow from the shit that he was and be a hero more similar to Izuku, about the fact of making a sacrifice more importing than the victory, he supposedly achieved that when he "sacrificed" himself in his first fight with Shigaraki and even with ShigaAfo, I also don't think it was innocent that his fight and moment had been with AFO, who is for most readers the villain who isn’t proposed for redemption, bk doesn't have to make a self-criticism of the society of heroes or their corruption if he fights against AFO because society and readers in general do not see him as someone redeemable or a victim of it (debatable considering AFO's backstory). However, the fight was the easiest to resolve without too much moral fight, an AFO already in its last moments and irredeemable, a moment of easy spotlight that leaves no gray spots, that doesn’t happen to Izuku, who until these last moments has repeated that Tomura is still human and that his story matters, Midoriya in this last chapter is the second person to approach Tenko at the risk of disintegrating, the only other person who did so was Tenko's mother, and he also told him that he wasn’t going to let him go and he was there. There is a great comparison for me Horikoshi never developed with bk, bk had to learn that everyone deserves respect, Izuku despite everything always understood compassion, we could see this with Gentle, we could see his thoughts in the war saying If perhaps everything had been different and he would have tried to understand the villains, it’s something he had to learn but he never left aside compassion.

Went on twitter to look at people takes on the newest chapter. Instead getting lots of BkDk people screaming it should have been Deku and 'Kacchan'...

Why did I go on there again?

[ghostdrinkssoup]

Hey I hope you don't mind a question. This is related to a snippet of the recent ask you posted:

also I think using “good” and “evil” to describe will isn’t helpful in an analytical context simply because the show goes out of its way to blur moral absolutes? he exists within the complicated grey, blurring with hannibal. again, much of the show is about deconstructing polarities, particularly the difference between humanity and monstrosity

I wanted to push back on the idea that there aren't moral absolutes in Hannibal and see if I could get any more thoughts.

It seems to me like Hannibal (character, not show) is presented as entirely, unquestionably evil. The show never gives him anything resembling a redemption arc, and only makes the vaguest allusions to a tragic backstory. He does some nice things, but nothing seems like a serious attempt to paint him as morally gray.

Even his love for Will is presented as obsessive, possessive, violent, and controlling, right up to 3b when he makes an earnest attempt to murder Will's family. He has no reason to believe Dolarhyde will fail.

Obviously there is no balancing force of absolute good, but I still feel like Hannibal (show, not character) is more about, like, the way Hannibal (character) warps the morality of everyone around him in an almost gravitational way.

hi !! and yeah of course, I’m always happy to throw ideas around and discuss the show with other people :D

it’s interesting, because as I was thinking about how I wanted to approach answering this ask (and word my thoughts) I found my answer was similar to the previous ask about will’s morality, but in reverse. it’s fitting since will and hannibal are “just alike” isn’t it? identically different, mirrors, the negative space of each other, etc. I’ll explain what I mean

like with the previous ask, I think my interpretation of hannibal stems from 1) the nature of his character progression (and the role of the person suit) 2) his worldview as shown/set up in the show’s first season and 3) his foil dynamic with will and how their romance changes him (or rather, changes his perception of himself). I agree that hannibal is an irredeemable character and I love that the show never tries to redeem him or paint his violent, atrocious behaviour as “misunderstood”. I don’t think we’re supposed to think hannibal is good, or that he was right in any capacity, however, I do think the “absolute evil” we’re presented with is an aspect of his person suit, and that hannibal isn’t irredeemable because he’s an inhuman monster, but because he’s a horrible human being

to me, hannibal’s character is defined by a want for absolute control and dominance over others as a response to losing his sister and being stripped of all power and autonomy. as such, both the cannibalism and the “shattering teacup” are metaphors for his desire for control. he tries to recreate a family for himself and “reverse time” in order to hide from his own limitations and, as ridiculous as it sounds, mortality. he’s incredibly selfish, has a god complex, and absolutely delights in the idea that he is above humanity. this idea empowers him. we see this in s1 when he smirks after bedelia calls the person suit a “human veil”, like he’s pleased she sees him this way. because if he’s the devil pulling the strings then he’s not weak; if he consumes those who cross him then he must be superior; if he’s never attached then he can never lose anything or anyone. he is free from the human condition, and being perceived as “evil” fulfils this purpose perfectly

his romance with will completely shatters this illusion. the reason will still doesn’t understand hannibal in the s1 finale (when he realises hannibal is a serial killer) is because the “ripper” persona is another mask. it’s theatre, which means it’s performative. in s2 will’s person suit begins to mirror hannibal’s, the two of them becoming the “evil” versions of themselves, however, in mizumono this idea is completely deconstructed too, not because hannibal is suddenly a good person, but because by becoming attached to will, and being successfully manipulated by him, he finally loses control. he’s no longer the all-seeing god pulling the strings. not only that, but his love for will is not something he can control. ironically, the ripper has been ripped open, and his humanity is exposed as the ugly, bleeding wound it is (metaphorically, of course)

in s3 we learn the point of hannibal’s arc is to see the deconstruction of his person suit, like how will recreates the crime scenes to see the human underneath the killers he analyses. again, not to apologise for them, but to see them. hannibal is absolutely humiliated as punishment for his arrogance, and that untouchable monster we’re introduced to is exposed as the pathetic toddler he is in reality. he’s no longer in control, and never has been. hannibal wishes he was above humanity, he wishes he was absolutely evil and sitting on the devil’s throne, but he’s not. in fact, in s1 he’s just as desperate to hide from his “humanity” as will is to hide from his “monster”. still, they only realise the truth of themselves when these concepts begin to blur and merge together

on that note, I think something the show goes out of its way to challenge is the notion that humanity (and love) is synonymous with goodness. it would be easier to distinguish people as either good or evil (humans or monsters) because either persona is palatable and tolerable in a society that has certain expectations and roles we’re meant to follow. the person suit itself is a metaphor for conformity, but the show also suggests that the suit (or “mask”) is a prison in of itself, and that there is no freedom in constructing a false version of yourself to present to the world, no matter how terrible the human inside is. it’s why hannibal gives himself up in s3, and why his arc is complete when he relinquishes control and lets will pull him off the cliff in twotl, because he realises he’ll never be free if he’s never understood, accepted, and forgiven for his grotesque humanity. no one else in the world can do it (because he’s fucking awful) but will can, because he’s the same

[ruby-whistler]

Why c!Dream should (and probably will be) redeemed

Hi! I’m bad with intros. You’ve read the title, so, let’s start with the definitions.

In this essay, we are considering the popularized definition of “redemption” instead of the classical one, which is, as per the Oxford Dictionary, “the act of saving or state of being saved from the power of evil; the act of redeeming.” That’s not however the way the word is used in fandom and media.

/dsmp /rp

The definition of redemption I’ll be working with in this essay is not forgiveness by the people who c!Dream has hurt, nor is it removing himself entirely from his past actions, but moreso the decision to change for the better and abandon destructive mindsets for himself and others.

A “redemption” in a narrative sense would be circumstances and a character arc that would allow that kind of healing and betterment.

I’d like to start this off by the fact that being “irredeemable”, in this sense, also doesn’t exist; redemption is a thing of conditions and choice, not of being allowed by someone else. You can’t gatekeep healing from people who seek it, just to be clear, and that even goes for people who have done terrible things.

Since I understand there is a lot of concern for c!Dream’s past actions, here is a post from people who are much more fit than me to speak on the matter, about the way in which they see a possible c!Dream redemption arc.

Another disclaimer, I am not going to be considering c!Dream only from the perspective of c!Tommy in this essay. c!Dream appears in other people’s perspectives and he himself has his own, unseen perspective. As a character, he is an individual person in his own right rather than just the antagonist of c!Tommy’s story, and so I do not have much concern for their narratives intertwining too much should this writing choice occur.

I’d also like to note that redemption is, in this sense, always a positive thing for everyone involved - someone who’s been prone to doing bad things in the past deciding not to do them anymore and try to change, or just simply heal enough to consider it, isn’t going to have a long-term negative effect in any of the characters, but rather the other way around. Healing is an unlimited resource, and the victims do not have to heal first for the person who hurt them to consider being better.

Here’s a well-written thread on Twitter that elaborates a bit to finish off this point, and let’s move on to actually talking about redemption in the context of the Dream SMP, and c!Dream specifically.

Why a c!Dream redemption arc is not only a good writing choice, but in this case the only good writing choice;

c!Dream, as we all know, has been subject to mental and physical abuse to the point of straight up torture by both c!Sam and c!Quackity (to different extents). He has been in indescribable amounts of suffering for the past 74 days at the time this essay will be published. That is six and something times the duration of the entire exile arc in canon.

Whatever the interpretation of his words in prison is, what is undeniable is first of all the fact his mental stability is absolutely crushed at this point, second that no human being could possibly ever deserve to undergo this, and third, his stay in the prison is showing off his humanity and making him out to be sympathetic.

Now, consider this; how would it feel if c!Tommy died at the end of the exile arc? Empty, there would be no catharsis to such an end, especially because of all of the hurt he’d gone through. Objectively, a bad writing choice.

Let’s compare, narratively of course, this situation to the prison arc. Even though I would never say one of them is “better” or “worse” than the other, since both are terrible and undeserved, c!Dream’s current state checks off all of the boxes that would make his death unsatisfying in the storyline; even if people want him gone, there would still be the dissatisfaction at the current build-up and why they even did it in the first place (it really wasn’t necessary to anyone else’s story to make him out as a victim, and yet they did) if they were planning to kill him off anyways. And since the prison arc is naturally meant to induce sympathy, even from an angst perspective it would simply not make sense within the themes and writing of the plot.

So, c!Dream can’t die, and he also can’t stay in the prison forever - the build-up must lead to something, which is logically a breakout. Great… what now?

Well, the Dream SMP prides itself in accurate representation of trauma and mental instability, specifically cc!Tommy and cc!Dream who have pulled it off incredibly during the exile arc.

Now, undoubtedly, after the prison, c!Dream is going to be just terribly traumatized- considering the writers’ past creative decisions, would it make sense for him to play the role of a dangerous, heartless villain in other people’s stories, while completely ignoring the logical fallout of what he’s been through?

In my mind, no. The most possible result is that cc!Dream is going to rightfully portray someone who’s been hurt so much he is broken, scared and tortured into submissions over months of agony and slowly stripping away of his agency, his dignity, his humanity. And that is… not going to be pretty, nor is he going to be in any way the same as before.

After everything, I’d be surprised if he can properly look at shears without shaking. That’s not villain behaviour, that’s the behaviour of someone who needs help.

Which leads me to another point, which is relatability. Believe me or not, there are people out there who heavily relate to c!Dream because they have been through things that allow them to see themselves in the character - abandonment, mental illness, etc. - or who have had destructive mindsets they have struggled to let go of in the past.

To them, as well as to the viewer, redeeming c!Dream could actually be a very good example, showcasing that anyone who has done bad things or has been hurt in the past can learn that it is possible to be better, to move on, to not be stuck in a loop but to actively seek help and then use that support to find the path to healing.

Making c!Dream a better person, who in a way, wins over his past, over his trauma, over the hurt he’s caused, and manages to actually get better… is inspiring, in a sense. It shows that you can abandon unhealthy mindsets, you can find a support group of people who care about you, you can make your life better simply by deciding to be better and then sticking to that, no matter how difficult the process.

This is why I believe that redeeming c!Dream would not be bad writing, but quite the opposite, and that the prison arc is an obvious set-up. Alright, but how does that work with the character? How could someone so widely hated mentally improve in such a seemingly violent and terrible environment? Would it even make sense within the context of c!Dream’s character so far? Well,

Why c!Dream has the capacity for healing and the Dream SMP the ability to provide it;

First of all, let’s remind ourselves that through c!Dream’s entire spiral he wasn’t ever directly given a chance to change. He was regarded as someone to defeat in order to accomplish a happy ending, or as someone who needed to be removed in order to achieve power on the SMP. Ever since the 16th, which is when the corruption of the character is the most obvious, there have been no attempts to reach out or to help him. I do not blame the characters for this - I am simply pointing out that since it has never happened before, we do not know how he would respond, and that, after everything he’s been through, any bit of kindness or compassion towards him will be a new concept he will have to learn to deal with somehow.

This point is especially driven home by the fact that both c!Quackity and c!Sam would often tell him he is a monster who deserves nothing but to suffer, and that what he’s going through is never going to amount to all the hurt he’s caused - basically removing any possibility for ever getting better (because by this logic, he doesn’t deserve support, and he doesn’t deserve to get better) from his line of sight.

He also hasn’t had a support system since shortly after the 16th, when his friends left him over c!George’s dethronement and made no effort to mend their relationship afterwards. c!Dream isn’t used to having allies and people on his side, but to being hated; again, wouldn’t that mean positive reinforcement could very well be all he needs to make the choice?

His bad mindsets - attachments are weakness, ends always justify the means, people will consider you a bad person no matter what you do - have been continuously proven right by his environment, even in prison. Any kind of subversion, plus an explanation as to why they are wrong, could be of great help to c!Dream.

Just another disclaimer; I do not believe c!Dream would change thanks to the treatment in prison, but rather despite it. His mental stability is non-existent at that point, and in order to get better he needs genuine emotional support from the people around him as well as to heal before he can redeem himself.

Alright, but… c!Dream has hurt a lot of people. Who would be fit to help him?

Let’s start off with the worst option and why it’s impossible the writers would even attempt this; c!Tommy.

c!Tommy has no responsibility to help or ever forgive c!Dream - not to say he could. The two, as it is, would drag each other down instead of helping in any capacity, and only make matters worse. The two of them shouldn’t even interact in the best case scenario - the best thing for both of them would be if they got enough healing and support individually that they could live around each other and not get their trauma or toxic habits triggered when interacting for whatever purpose of the plot.

So, if not c!Tommy (and c!Tubbo neither by extension), who could redeem c!Dream?

Well, he can’t do it on his own for sure. Being in nature with animals is nice, but further isolation from other people would merely help with the prison trauma, not with the state of his tendencies when interacting with others. He, once again, needs positive reinforcement from other people for him to heal properly.

There are two main options for this in my mind, and then there’s a few individuals he could also find comfort in, including people from both groups or those unaligned.

1) Kinoko Kingdom

From the people of this new country, c!Dream has never negatively interacted with c!Karl before, he has never hurt c!George and he hasn’t directly harmed c!Sapnap. Although the relationship with his old friend group could be difficult to rekindle, none of them have grudges against him that are too personal, and they have been canonically close friends since the beginning of the SMP, so it would be very much possible to rebuild burnt bridges. They’d be familiar, and with the addition of c!Karl they could be a good source of comfort for c!Dream after he either breaks out or is released from prison - just gotta convince c!Sapnap not to kill him first.

2) The Syndicate

From the Syndicate, c!Dream has never directly interacted with c!Nikki, and from what I know of her character she never seemed to be very affected by his actions - even doing his work for him when he was planning to burn down the L’Mantree. c!Techno is an ally who doesn’t have anything against him, and as for c!Ranboo, here is why I believe c!Dream being in the Syndicate could be positively influential on his character arc as well;

c!Ranboo and c!Philza have had a conversation about change, during which c!Ranboo made it clear he thinks everyone can change except for c!Dream; who, in his mind, is “too deep down the rabbit hole”. c!Philza replied that he thinks anyone can change if given enough time.

… you see what I’m getting at?

c!Dream has been implied to be an ally to c!Ranboo’s enderwalk state (or the state when he has access to his full memory), and hence would most likely not behave negatively towards him at all. While it might make it more difficult for c!Ranboo to deal with his own issues, it might also give him more motivation to get to the bottom of it as well, especially since he now has access to the person who, presumably, started this all. While this is going on, c!Dream would show himself in a much different light than c!Ranboo sees himin, which could lead to confusion, realization of the flaws in his own logic, and hence, positive character development.

Here’s a great post about why c!Techno as a character could be a great asset in c!Dream’s healing process & redemption, and why there is not much need to worry about him not knowing or finding out about c!Dream’s actions.

Of Kinoko Kingdom and the Syndicate, as far as I know, neither c!Tommy nor c!Tubbo have ever been directly involved with these groups, nor are they planning to.

Another important point to make is that, while c!Tommy needs to be kept away from c!Dream in order to heal properly, the same goes for c!Quackity and c!Sam in c!Dream’s case. While c!Quackity has high chances to interact with either Kinoko Kingdom or the Syndicate in the future, there’s an even higher chance, in that situation, that c!Dream would be offered protection, which is also important; there is no healing from trauma without the knowledge of safety, to some degree.

So, this was an essay as to why I think c!Dream’s recovery and redemption (one needs to come before the other, naturally) is not only extremely possible but also could be pulled off well and have a positive impact on both the characters, and the audience.

[septembersghost]

Appreciate you approaching the prison idea without calling it happy or peaceful. it's hard seeing a lot of commentary only viewing it as a symbol and not a practicality that is difficult.

thank you for understanding what i've talked about and why it's a complicated topic for me.

i want to say something and i am uncertain exactly how to put it into words, and it's probably a little bit of a tangent from this message, but i've been considering it.

i think...it's very easy to dehumanize people who do the wrong things. it eases our minds, to separate ourselves as Good from those who do Bad. make them less than human and we don't have to wonder where our own darknesses lie. i mentioned earlier that i don't like ruling someone as "irredeemable" in fiction, because fiction is full of possibility, the potential at any time exists for a character to do better, to be more, to change paths, and the rejection of humanity based on the paradigm of redeemable/irredeemable is slightly too biblically judgmental to be wholly interesting or honest to me. reality requires interrogation and nuance, but of course there are things that are unforgivable, too far to ever rectify, too terrible to comprehend, but fiction gives us a space to explore those themes safely and philosophically. and yet, the ruling of a story/character being "problematic" is passed all the time as an easy way to disengage from empathy. bad is bad, don't question it. don't try to find reason in it. punish it without compassion. i don't think it's conducive to connection.

thus, if i see someone say walt is only a monster, jesse is only a useless junkie, jimmy is only a scumbag, it disturbs me. that isn't the purpose of their existences in their stories, their arcs. it is much deeper and more empathetic than that. it is MEANT to be confronted, questioned, we're meant to see where their paths took them, why their narratives unfold the ways they do.

prison is a sacrifice. jimmy may have found a sense of inner peace and a true reconciliation within himself as a whole human being, and that is profoundly moving, but it isn't easy, or simple, or happy, and it isn't...about punitive conclusions equating to morality. the punishment isn't his atonement. his atonement is his honesty. he is alive (and i'm glad! i'm grateful both he and kim are alive! battered and changed, but always with the possibility now for more healing and reconciliation, in themselves and with each other, ahead), but he has given his life. it's a less literal version of nacho's sacrifice, given wholly and unflinchingly for reclamation of his own agency and for the person he most loves. does jimmy need to pay for his sins? legally, yes. is paying for his sins the point? to my mind, no. personhood and the human heart is paramount here, and that is what i'm holding onto conclusively. that is what he found, after suppressing it or searching for it for so long. that is what kim is able to return to, one step at a time. it isn't easy, and they'll still hurt, but they found a light, and maybe it's enough. the have something entirely real, and that's a starting point.

[wardensantoineandevka]

Tired: Parent-trapping Marion and the Gentleman

Wired: Parent-trapping Vandran and Avantika 😭

re: "Jokes aside, there's an incredible tragedy in how Vandran and Avantika's relationship was a romantic one."

Avantika dismissed Vandran's doubts about how they were walking a hollow path and tried to ritually murder him to gift him to the god he was growing afraid of. I don't think Vandran will be interested in getting back with his ex here. Especially since she's undead. Like, let him retire to a cottage by the sea.

To go on a whole thing here—and this isn't entirely specifically at you, anon, but is in response to multiple dozens of replies, tags, and asks I've gotten lately and seen over weeks and over months saying "I wish the Nein offered Avantika redemption" and "wish Avantika and Vandran can still get a happy ending" and "can we get them back together?" and "Avantika for redemption next" and similar.

I adore Avantika, and she's my favorite villain of the campaign by far. I am indeed an Avantika stan. However, like, she's a terrible person. She's an incorrigible asshole who has chosen to be the worst and rejected getting better. To me, that's her entire appeal.

Redemption, atonement, amends, self-improvement—whatever name you want to call it, it's the same process. It's a process of self-reflection, self-improvement, and self-directed growth. You don't GIVE someone redemption. The Nein cannot hand Avantika redemption, nor can Vandran, nor can anyone else. She has to choose that path herself. They can only encourage her, offer support, or provide an outside perspective against which to reflect.

Given that she's written in her journal in some specificity that Vandran distrusted the dreams and promises, and Vandran himself speaks of understanding that Uk'otoa was using them as puppets, it feels suggested to me she understood the nature of Vandran's doubts—and she rejected that. She actively looked at the opportunity to be something else, and she chose absolute power. She chose to secure her Divine Right by attempting to murder someone who loved her.

At this point, if her own lover was someone to gift to her god, what would make Avantika change her mind about her path? What would fill her with enough doubt about her choices? What would make her reflect? What specifically is the impetus for her being motivated to choose to take that path? Narratively, what does this process look like? What precipitates it? And what does Avantika do through this process? What does she look like as a person after? And is that actually interesting?

These are serious questions: what does this actually look like, and how does that actually make her more interesting? How specifically does a process of redemption deepen her on a character and thematic basis?

And, to the specific point about her and Vandran, why would they consider this? What would be gained by Vandran, by her, through rekindling this relationship? What steps would need to be taken? Why can't we just let Vandran, in all his existential exhaustion, just rest?

Despite all the waxing tragedy I do about her and Vandran's relationship—personally? I don't find Avantika atoning or redeeming herself or becoming a better person to be an interesting narrative arc, even conceptually. She is enjoyable in her extremes, in her staunch refusal to believe she is in the wrong. Avantika is fun in how she is the deep end of the pool, the bottom of the abyss, how she is an image of what it means to cross the Rubicon in this specific situation. And, her relationship with Vandran is fascinatingly tragic and poignant to me because it is shattered beyond repair.

I'm fully Team Let Avantika Be Irredeemable, fully Team Vandran Doesn't Need To Get Back With His Murderous Ex.

Avantika is fun because she's terrible. Their relationship is great because it was irrecoverably doomed.

[ironwoodprotectionsquad]

You think a show with the subject of Unity WOULD’VE made James redeemable. This show used to do this, during the Fall in V3 is when we really saw how close everyone was. Heck, Qrow saving Ironwood and assuring him he knows he would never do this was the moment we learned that, for all their differences, they ARE friends who care about each other. What happened to this? What happened to the hope and unity in times of a darkness? V7-8 makes me feel so dirty with the lack of sympathy.

A show with a theme of unity and a fucking theme song all about trusting love really has absolutely no reason to have someone like James as completely unredeemable. As you said the show, you know shows us that the inner circle unquestionably trusts one another. Their was no question in their minds about James, they knew he was on their side even if they disagreed. They knew he would never do what people where accusing him of. James didn't need to prove himself to them at Beacon because he had already proved himself to them.

When the group for to Atlas though....Qrow forgot all about that trust he had for James. He agrees with Ruby's decision to keep vital information from James despite him falling apart at the information himself and being furious at Ozpin for keeping that same information from him. The show screams about Unity and Trust being key to defeating Salem, all the while insisting that the mains are right somehow for refusing to give that same consideration to James.

We're supposed to believe that the mains are going to reunite the world to stop Salem...but how are we supposed to do that when they flat out refused to try and do anything to reach James. They don't talk to him, they don't show him any compassion, they immediately turn extremely hostile against him because he made the tough call to try and leave Mantle behind to save everyone on Atlas, the relics and the maiden and keep them all safe from Salem rather then risk it all to try and save everyone like they wanted. Is it noble to want to save everyone? Of course. Does not being willing to take that risk somehow make James an irredeemable monster? No.

James was hurting, was traumatized, suffering from severe untreated PTSD after Beacon. He was someone who was extremely sympathetic and had no reason to not be redeemed. I agree, it makes me sick seeing how unsympathetically James was treated in the entire Atlas arc. Even when he was supposedly fully considered an ally...he is just not given trust and kindness from the mains who are supposedly these morally good people.

I love James in volume 7 but it is still so hard to watch knowing how little the narrative or anyone cares about his mental health and how they all just....let him spiral out of control and can't even be bothered to feel anything about it.

[melo-efcarist]

// dsmp , rp , swearing at the tl;dr part I’ve seen some takes that are like “c!dream is an abuser shouldn’t have a redemption arc bc they aren’t supposed to be empathized with and instead should be punished for a lifetime.” Let it be known that i am an abuse victim before reading this post, i am not an abuse apologist nor will i ever be. i could go in detail, but i think i don’t think that would be very sfw now, would it? So, say that this logic is true. That would mean that lots of other people shouldn’t have a redemption arc. They should all be in bars. In jail. If you consider C!Tommy making Antfrost his sl*ve canon, then this includes C!Tommy. But hey, that part about C!Tommy is just a bit apparently. It’s been referenced in the battle of the lake, but you know what, let’s say it’s a bit. That would make people like C!Sapnap guilty of animal abuse, most people who participated in the pet war, actually. But hey, those are animals and not people so that abuse is different. Okay, okay. This would mean that you also think that C!Wilbur, C!Sam and C!Quackity is irredeemable. You could argue that C!Sam and C!Quackity are actually justified for torturing C!Dream (they’re not, and for multiple reasons as well) because he’s a bad person and this is his punishment, but the reason he’s in the prison in the first place isn’t because he’s facing a punishment. It’s to keep him alive. Also, you would also agree that C!Wilbur is an abuser because of all the harm he did to people, right? He was never there for C!Fundy and shit. But hey, they all have POVs, that means that they should be empathized with and therefore have a redemption arc, while C!Dream doesn’t. This just stretches things out really thin and is flawed, but let’s say you just needed a valid reason to empathize with that person for that person to be considered redeemable. Ok, sure, let’s say that. The prison arc is entirely C!Dream-centric. He has been meant to be viewed as a victim time and time again, do you not think that this is a valid reason to empathize with him? If not, and you actually need a POV, well CC!Dream is releasing one soon. What about then? They have a POV, you can empathize with them now! Oh? But he’s still irredeemable, I wonder why? Whether the lore video is sympathetic or not, it’s still a POV. Let’s say that the lore video is him doing evil things. Well then, do you think C!Quackity hitting C!Dream and C!Technoblade is meant to be empathized with? That’s his POV on it, do you think that means you should empathize with him? That’s something the viewers should be rejoicing in? If you do think that literal torture is something for someone to rejoice in, then that’s kinda fucked up, ngl. So, what’s my point here, you ask? My point is everyone is capable of redemption, even if we can’t see a way of empathizing with them. Everyone is capable of healing. I don’t think you know what you actually mean when you come in contact with the word “redemption.” Redemption is NOT forgiveness. Redemption is becoming better as a person, and there’s no added benefits to that. Who they hurt doesn’t have to forgive them, and they don’t get to have good things, but they can still be redeemed after all that. Redemption is healing, and getting rid of unhealthy mindsets. Everyone has the chance to be better, and I mean everyone. That includes C!Wilbur, C!Sam, C!Quackity, and yes, even C!Dream. Literally all it takes to be redeemed is to unlearn bad mindsets, that’s it. This fandom treats C!Dream like his entire identity is that he is just an abuser and a villain and shit. He’s a lot of things, actually. He’s more than just “the villain” or “the abuser.” He’s a leader. He’s someone’s lover. He’s a villain. He’s someone’s abuser. He’s an ally. He’s a victim. He’s a war criminal. He’s a strategist. He’s a friend. He is a person. That’s not even touching on personal identity and what C!Dream thinks of himself, those are just roles that he plays. There is so much more to C!Dream than just being the villain, and I’m tired of people pretending that he’s just that. You don’t have to like him, but when talking about his character, don’t view him as just a villain. View him as a person, with thoughts, and feelings, and things that he cares about. Otherwise, it would lead to some mischaracterization.  (Also, the concept of an entire lifetime as a punishment is very much flawed, but that’s another topic for another time) If you’d like to know more about what it means to be redeemed and the concept of rehabilitated, there’s like an entire show about redemption and rehabilitation and it’s called “The Good Place.” It is a sitcom that references famous philosophers and beliefs with an interesting plot and very interesting characters. It’s available on Netflix and I think some other streaming services.  TL;DR - C!Dream is redeemable. Fuck you, fuck myself, and fuck everything. I am so tired and my head hurts like hell. I hate this fandom, and I hate everything.

[nothing-more-than-hot-leaf-juice]

What would an Azula redemption arc look like?

First things first: I hear this thing a lot about how “Azula deserved a redemption arc” and while I don't think Azula was irredeemable, that’s not to say that she should have been redeemed nor was she in the right place to be redeemed during the series. Post-series, I think Azula could have gotten better, but I don’t think “redemption arc” is the right phrase for it. 

Second, I hear a lot about how Zuko should have been the one to go on a “life-changing field” trip for her redemption arc and I don’t think it’s that simple, nor do I think Zuko would be the right person to help her become a better person. The fact of the matter is that even though they are siblings, they spent a good part of the series trying to kill each other. Azula shot lightning at Zuko in the first episode of season 2, they both almost killed each other in The Boiling Rock and The Southern Raiders, and Azula tried to kill Katara during their Agni Kai. They are siblings and I do think they care about each other deep down, but the fact of the matter is that their relationship was hostile and damaged. Repeated murder attempts aren’t a thing either of them is going to get over quickly and they aren’t the type of thing that’s going to make it possible for Zuko of all people to be the one to help Azula heal. There’s also the fact that he’s a teenage boy dealing with his own damage from his abuse and just because they had the same abuser doesn’t mean he’s going to be the right person to help her heal. 

An Azula redemption arc would in no way be the same as a Zuko redemption arc, but let’s first examine why his redemption arc worked in the first place: 

I’ve written more about Zuko’s redemption arc and why it works here. But in terms of him making amends, the big reason why his redemption arc worked was because it stemmed from him choosing Iroh over Ozai. It was his recognition that the unconditional love and support Iroh had shown him was right and the cruelty and conditional acceptance Ozai had shown him was wrong. And further, it was his realization that he was right all along in terms of being compassionate and his father was wrong when it came to the war. He recognized that all the war was needless suffering because he had seen the real human cost in season 2. And through that journey, he saw that the people of the Earth Kingdom didn't deserve the destruction the Fire Nation was bringing on them and realized they had been wrong the whole time. And his betrayal of Iroh was the catalyst for his redemption arc because Iroh realized that already and spent season 2 trying to get Zuko to embrace compassion and peace. He spends a lot of time after he joins the gaang wondering “what would Uncle do?” and tries his hardest to do the things that will make his Uncle proud. Even though Iroh showed him unconditional love upon their reunion, Zuko still put the work in to do right by Iroh in order to make up for his betrayal.

“He’s the one who’s been a real father to me.... It was cruel and it was wrong!” 

Another thing that needs to be made clear: Zuko’s redemption arc worked because he spent time making amends with the people he hurt, but not just because he wanted to make amends, but because he genuinely related to and wanted to help them with their struggles. He was able to make amends with Aang, Sokka, and Katara by relating to their dilemmas and doing everything in his power to help them through their own emotional struggles he also struggled with. He helped Aang overcome a fear of firebending because he too struggled with finding a way to see his element beyond destruction and harm. He helped Sokka “regain his honor” by helping him at the Boiling Rock because he knew what it was like to fail at something and have a person he cared about bear the consequences of his actions (Sokka with Hakoda and Zuko with Iroh). And he helped Katara find the person who killed her mother because he understood what it was to have the Fire Nation take away his mother. Zuko understood their pain in these specific cases and leaned his hand not only to show them that he had changed, but because he had changed. It was because he genuinely understood and wanted them to overcome their problems. He wanted Aang to find his inner fire, he wanted Sokka to regain his honor, and he wanted Katara to be able to find closure because those were all things he wanted for himself. His acceptance into the gaang wasn’t ‘do X thing and then that made up for how he hurt them’ or ‘said he had changed and felt bad and that was enough’-- it was the combination of his genuine remorse, his ability to relate to them, and the actions that stemmed from that. 

“You can do it, you’re a talented kid.” 

“You need to regain your honor? Believe me I get it.” 

“I know who killed your mother and I’m going to help you find him.” 

So the main takeaway: Zuko had the capacity to be good all along but needed the right influence and before he made amends with the people he hurt. He needed to heal a little bit himself, confront the fact that he was hurt too, and change on his own before confronting the gaang. 

So for Azula to have a redemption arc, she would need to do the same. She would need to address the people she had hurt and Zuko was one of the people she hurt the most. That’s why Zuko wouldn’t be the person to guide her on the path to redemption. She’s the one that needs to do the work to make amends with him (this isn’t to say that Zuko hadn’t hurt her in fights before, but she was the instigator of most of their fighting). But before she’s able to do that she would need to do some work on herself. 

The thing that’s going to make it difficult for Azula to get ‘redeemed’ is that Zuko had a war to change sides on. There was a tangible conflict for him to help the ‘right’ side with. Post-war Azula doesn’t have that. She doesn’t have a Firelord to help Aang defeat or a war to help end. 

But another thing that’s going to make it hard for her is that her actions were objectively more harmful than Zuko’s were. Zuko spent season 1 trying to capture Aang, but there were multiple instances where he chose to put others before his search: he chose not to leave the Southern Water Tribe alone, when Iroh was captured he chose to save him from the earthbenders rather than go after Aang, and during the Storm he chose to keep his ship safe rather than go after Aang. He never intended to hurt Aang, even though his actions were harmful. The worst things Zuko did were as follows: burning Kyoshi village, capturing Aang in the North Pole, betraying Iroh in Ba Sing Se, and sending the assassin after Aang. But in all these cases, there was either someone else with worse intentions or he did tangible things to make up for them or the actual consequences weren’t that bad in the end. Kyoshi village was fine, Aang escaped his capture, he committed treason for Iroh, and he risked his life to stop Combustion Man. 

So what exactly does Azula need to redeem herself from?

1. Repeatedly trying to kill Zuko 

2. Almost killing Aang in Ba Sing Se 

3. Sending Mai and Ty Lee to prison 

4. Conquering Ba Sing Se/wrecking havoc on the Earth Kingdom in general 

5. Hitting Iroh with fire (The Chase) and sending him to prison 

But again, she doesn’t have the outlet of war to tangibly show that she’s changed sides. And for most of these actions, it’s other people that dealt with the consequences. Katara healed Aang and Zuko after Azula shot them. Zuko helped Iroh after Azula shot him and Iroh busted himself out of prison. Mai and Ty Lee were released without her help. The Order of the White Lotus freed Ba Sing Se. She doesn’t have a clear way to make amends for the damage she caused. 

So she’s not going to be able to make personal amends with the gaang. Mostly because there’s no reason for her to do so. Zuko was able to because they needed a firebending teacher for Aang and their goals were aligned. Azula doesn’t have that. That’s one of those things that’s just not going to happen because neither party has a reason to want to make amends.

I don’t think she’s going to be able to reconcile with Mai and Ty Lee after what she did to them. She was going to hurt the people they cared about and at the first instance of disloyalty, their childhood friend threw them in prison. At the Boiling Rock, Mai betrayed her because she was going to kill Zuko and Ty Lee betrayed her because she was going to hurt Mai. Neither one put Azula in danger, but she still tossed them aside when all they wanted to do was keep the people they loved safe. They move on from her after the series and find new people to surround themselves with. They were entirely justified in deciding to cut Azula out of their lives after how she treated them. 

And in terms of Zuko, again, they spent a good part of the series trying to kill each other and I’ve written about the complexity of their relationship and Azula in general here, here, here, and here. But the point is that they spent most of their lives pitted against each other by Ozai and they have some serious resentment and hostility towards each other. This isn’t their fault, but it’s undeniable and that hostility is something that’s going to make it impossible for Zuko to be the right person to help Azula heal. He shouldn’t have to if we’re being honest because of how outwardly violent she was to him. But more on that later. 

So because of these things, I think Azula’s redemption arc would have to parallel Iroh’s. 

It’s talked about a little bit, but Iroh was at one point militaristic and destructive. When he was kidnapped in season 1, the earthbenders called him a war criminal. In the flashback of Zuko Alone, we saw him laugh about “burning [Ba Sing Se] to the ground”. In between Ozai’s coronation and Zuko’s banishment, Iroh let go of his need for military victory and learned to focus on spirituality and peace. This is when he joins the White Lotus and starts to see the faults in Fire Nation propaganda, especially after he lost his son in the process. But what I think is important to remember about Iroh is that he faced the dragons long before his son died. In The Firebending Masters, Zuko says that Iroh allegedly killed the last dragon “long before [he] was born” and they deemed him worthy anyway, despite the fact that he still went on to use his bending abilities to conquer the Earth Kingdom. This means that the dragons were able to see deep inside of him and that gave him a greater appreciation for firebending not as a weapon, but as an extension of the self. So if Iroh had that chance when he was younger, before he decided to live peacefully and help others, Azula might have that chance too. 

And Azula is a prodigy at firebending, but the reason Zuko and Iroh are better than she is is that they recognize firebending as energy and life. They use it to keep them warm and they incorporate other bending techniques into it. We only see Azula use firebending as a weapon, never as a tool. She considers firebending something she has to conquer rather than something that’s a part of her. And she thinks this way because that’s what she was taught her whole life, but like Zuko, she needs to understand her element beyond its ability for destruction in order to accept that she herself has the capacity to be something more than a destructor. Azula determined her self worth and the worth of others by their strength and abilities. In order for her to move past this mentality, she would need to go to the dragons. 

And this might be the place where Iroh can step in for her. I’ve written about the dynamic of Azula and Iroh’s relationship (or lackthereof) here. But during the series, Iroh’s priority was to protect Zuko and Azula just happened to be one of the people he had to protect Zuko from (see The Avatar State, The Chase, and The Guru.) If Azula were to face the dragons, she might want to kill them in order to prove herself as worthy since that was the mentality of the Fire Nation, but if Iroh were to connect with Azula in any way it would be though firebending. It would be in guiding her to the dragons and showing her the true meaning of the element. 

Second, and again like Zuko, she would need to recognize how she was hurt by her parents. There’s that scene in The Beach where she mentions how she was hurt by how her mother treated her, but doesn’t actually talk about it. It would be beneficial for her to verbalize how her self image was warped by how Ursa viewed her. Azula seems to realize that how Ursa favored Zuko over her wasn’t right, but she doesn’t understand that the way Ozai treated her was wrong either. She relished the praise her father granted her and didn’t recognize how he used her for her abilities and didn’t value her as his daughter. So a big part of her learning to become better would be recognizing that the way Ozai treated her was wrong and that she has value beyond her ability to carry out his orders. Azula needed to have her own “it was cruel and it was wrong” moment now that Ozai’s in prison and she’s not beholden to him. And it would take her time to come to that conclusion, but she could get there eventually. Through all of this, Azula really just needs her mental health addresses over anything else. 

And for her to truly be “redeemed” (for lack of a better word) she would need to do two things: she would need to prove to Zuko that she was remorseful for how she hurt him and she would need to prove to the world that she wasn’t seeking destruction anymore. Let’s parallel to Iroh’s redemption arc again. Iroh changed in small ways by helping those around him, mainly Zuko, but his redemption from his years as a general for the Fire Nation and his actions in that regard came in his freeing of Ba Sing Se in the finale. That was his moment of redemption. Azula, being the conquerer of Ba Sing Se, would need to have a moment where she proves to the world that she’s going to work for the greater good over personal glory or her father’s orders. There would need to be an opportunity for her to use her abilities to save people, most likely from Ozai’s supporters. 

And in order for her to reconcile with Zuko, she would first need to be genuinely remorseful for how she hurt him and would need to recognize how Ozai hurt him. For most of the series she relishes in his suffering and if she’s going to truly be redeemed, she would need to first, be genuinely remorseful for how her brother was hurt and second, take steps to show him how she doesn’t want to hurt him anymore. In the finale, we see just how fractured their relationship is as she shoots him with lightning and Katara heals him. In season 3, Zuko learns to heal by letting go of the family that hurt him and finds a family that’s going to look out for him and protect him. If Azula is going to prove to Zuko that she’s changed, she would need to act as his protector. Maybe from an assassin or something along those lines, but she would need to put all her efforts into showing him how she’s changed, similar to how he risked his life in stopping Combustion Man to prove to the gaang how he changed. 

And it’s very possible that they’ll never have a good relationship, but if what we’re looking for is an ‘Azula redemption arc,’ that’s what needs to happen. And Zuko isn’t required to forgive her or have her in his life. The fact of the matter is that Azula hurt him and the people he cared about repeatedly. And just because they were hurt by the same person doesn’t mean she didn’t hurt him too. They very well may never have a ‘good’ relationship, but that doesn’t mean Azula wouldn’t be able to get better on her own. 

I think if anything, Azula might be able to immerse herself in firebending. That’s something she understands and that she’s good at. But in order for her to find peace within herself, to move past the mentality Ozai and Ursa instilled in her, and to become a better person, she would need to follow a spiritual path. She would need to go the route of Iroh. Azula doesn’t need to be any kind of military leader or fighter. What she needed was to recognize herself as something other than a weapon, because as long as she valued herself for her combat and military abilities, she was going to seek destruction. In order for her to heal, she needs to recognize that her ability as a prodigy doesn’t mean she was meant for power or destruction, but rather it’s a gift. Azula is an incredible bender, but she didn’t appreciate herself or the true meaning of the element. And if she’s going to move beyond ruthlessness and callousness, she needs to learn the beauty in her element. 

In conclusion, an Azula “redemption arc” is easier said than done. Azula’s motivations are sympathetic and it’s obvious that she’s a victim of abuse and manipulation, but she did hurt people in major ways. She hurt people in ways she wasn’t able to make up for and that’s why if she were to become better, she would need to learn to let go of this image of herself as a force for destruction and recognize the beauty of firebending. She might never fully reconcile with Zuko and it’s improbable that she would develop meaningful relationships with Mai and Ty Lee, but the fact of the matter was that Azula was 14 and her actions stemmed from her abuse. Her path to becoming a better person wouldn’t focus on the people she hurt, because they had moved on and cut her from their lives, but rather it would focus on her individual path to growing past the propaganda of her nation and the emotional abuse under her parents. 

Azula’s “redemption arc” would not be rooted in interpersonal relationships, but rather would entirely focus on interpersonal growth.