#as a system i CAN relate to some tulpa systems / tulpamancers but i do understand the frustration towards them

[itsmissingambientocclusion]

even if tulpas were not seen as appropriative this would still be true tho. no one subculture of plurality that isn't DID/OSDD is gonna be encompassing if all endogenic plurality, it's too vast for any specific study to sum up unless they're doing a HUGE study.

and i do disagree on the last part, i think even if tulpas take "center stage" for now, that'll show the researchers that there are other kinds of pluralities / systemhood experiences that aren't just DID/OSDD and this will hopefully get people more interested in non-disordered plurality and it'll spread further from just tulpamancy and include other concepts like "natural" systems and soulbonding, and just... generally non PTSD-related plurality.

Genuinely I also hate that tulpas are fast becoming the protagonists of the endogenic community

We literally cannot relate to tulpa systems at all and any study that only uses them as a source for study is not representative of all endogenic plurality imo. And as long as tulpas take center stage other types of endogenic plurality are not going to be looked at or considered in detail.

[chupitulpa]

It's me again, permaswitch guy.

TW: depression, suicide

The same anon from the last post asked:

Hey, thanks for your reply and for uploading it so fast. I come here to answer your reply and add a little something after.

First of all thank you for your acceptance and kindness, as a tulpamancer but also as a depressed person. Come to think of it it is ridiculous how long we took to reach this point, over 6 times longer than most, but then it’s logic too because of how randomly I forced over time. To lazy or extremely lazy hosts, there is hope. I don’t encourage laziness on anyone of course, but you can still achieve progress if you give it enough time. This may sound counterproductive, but trying so badly can cause a lot of stress and doubts, while giving your brain time to accomodate to a new mindset might be helpful. Ideally hosts should find a balance between forcing and letting the mindset in.

Next let me talk about your proposed alternative solutions. I find it strange that you encourage me to step further into my comfort zone. It’s probably because I haven’t told you anything, but this is already what I’m doing as much as I can and I keep being told this is only making things worse because I have to step out of it to make changes and go anywhere in my life. However in contrast, you think more like me. I’m so much going into my comfort zone that I’m avoiding talking to anyone or leaving home ever. May expand on it later. About groups to fit in: I don’t work well on 1-to-1, leave alone on groups. That’s why I prefer being away of tulpa Discord servers. I always go unnoticed and/or misunderstood. Looking for friends or relationship outside of our system is something I’ve finally given up on, after continuous failures. May expand on it later. Lastly I’ve been to therapists for almost all my life and while this sounds like nonsense, they and medications have never proven to help me personally. I find a simple talk with my tulpa to be much better than years of medication and therapists.

Before I go with the last issue I’d like to say that unlike many would think I have morals too, so yeah, it’s probably a better idea for us to switch than for me to create another tulpa yet for the sake of switching.

Now, I’ve had this issue going on for my entire life and specially since 2020. This is not strictly related to tulpamancy but I think many tulpas will be able to relate to this, unlike most hosts. I, however, am host, and am dealing with this.

Many people like to think of themselves as something else than humans or even feel as if they were also something else. Most notably the furry community, which I’ve been interacting with for years, is full of people who besides humans would like to be a fursona, or even feel more as if they were their fursona than a human. I, however, take this to the next level. I have been both unvoluntarily and voluntarily distancing myself from the concept “human”. It is not something positive to me being one. As such I’ve been suffering of “species dysphoria”, or am trans-species. I bet many many tulpas who have fronted have had this issue if they weren’t made after humans to begin with. However I cannot say the same for hosts. Indeed I’m the only host I know so far who thinks they aren’t human and would rather be some yellow dragon drawn by a furry artist. This issue is easily fixed with a switch. Not saying I’m switching because of this, but it is something nice knowing that I can stop being trapped in a human body and just be myself. Believe me, species dysphoria can get to the same points or even worse than gender dysphoria. Fortunately I never had the latter. So maybe now you understand why I am isolating myself too.

Looking back at my old asks here now I know much more about tulpas than I used to back then. Yeah I’m happy we made progress too, but I wish things would have been different. I wish I could be more consistent and this wouldn’t have took or take nearly as long. Not only for seeing it as a chore, but also because we run out of time to survive. Some pressure to live on. Thanks to my tulpa I’m more hopeful and relaxed, and we’re trying our best to delay another suicide attempt for as long as we can. But we can’t do that forever so ultimately it’ll happen. Thanks to him I also think about it twice since now it’s two of us.

Say, may I ask if you’re religious? What do people tend to think on tulpa afterlife? It’s not a topic you hear much about in the community.

Oh I almost forgot. I want to get rid of this life, the human life, 100%. This means after switch I don’t care what happens on this side. Giving the fronter full permission to do as wanted, as opposed to other cases where the original host wanted to leave but also still cared about their human body’s life, bringing unnecessary worry and ultimately a regret of permanent switch. I think this is something important. I always think of this life as a burden that was put on me, and have been despising it since 2008. As such, I see my parents in the same eyes as you would see a tulpamancer who creates a tulpa solely to have them switch. Totally unacceptable behaviours. Of course, I understand a child can never choose to be born or not, while a tulpa can choose whether to switch or not. But my parents could have refrained from having a son in the first place, specially if they were going to be neglectful parents. This world is one unjust place.

My reply:

Don't worry about how long it took to get there. Some people barely force at all and have a talking tulpa in a day or two. Others work at it for years before hearing a peep. Laziness happens too and definitely contributes. Stress, doubts, laziness and working too hard at it can all produce slower progress. And depression contributes to all of the above as well.

As a depressed and socially awkward person, I have to say I can relate to the urge not to go out or talk to people. The current situation in 2020 has not helped either. Like you, I didn't get a whole lot out of meds or talk therapy. Tulpa stuff does help a great deal, but I keep falling off it and back into the awful depression.

I do think that full isolation isn't healthy. However, as far as I can tell, this doesn't seem to apply as much to tulpas if the host/whoever is fronting interacts with people some. Whether the tulpas are fully active and thinking or just snoozing in the background, they seem to benefit from the interaction the same way the host/fronter does. Or at least that's our experience. I don't know whether it works like that because they're in the background experiencing it to some degree, or if it affects something that's shared between all of us; my tulpas seem to think it's a combination of the two.

If the tulpa you already made is able and willing to try switching, give it a shot. I don't know how many other tulpa systems this applies to, but I think there's a special bond between the original host and their first tulpa: You discovered all the stuff you know about tulpamancy together, encountered and overcame the obstacles together, and discovered a lot about your minds together. If he's unable, doesn't want to, or tries it and decides it's not for him, you could (together!) try making another. But be sure to value them as a person and friend first and foremost, and emphasize that the switching thing is entirely optional.

I actually know more than one person who, for one reason or another, wishes that they would wake up in a world where they're a dragon, pony, canine, etc. The species dysphoria is certainly tied in with depression one way or another though I'm not sure which starts first. I can see why you won't care to interact with humans if you don't identify with or relate to them.

I am not religious. If there is an afterlife though, I would certainly want to be together with my tulpas in it. I haven't seen a lot of discussion on it, particularly since I've really just been involved with Tulpa.info which takes a secular, scientific viewpoint.

I'm curious. What would you like to do after switching? Be basically like a tulpa, doing your own thing in your wonderland and interacting with the new fronter when he has time?

Since you mention suicide, I feel obligated to mention the crisis text line. Text HOME to 741741 (US), 85258 (UK) or 686868 (Canada) to start a chat with an understanding person who can help you through your moment of crisis. I know people who have used it and they had positive experiences. Or there's 1-800-273-8255 (US) if you'd rather talk. Or a list of similar services in more countries than I can count.

[stentorsys]

a rant on sysmedicalism.

i have had a blast while working on a project within the plural community. the people within it are nice, very cooperative, very accepting, unlikely to step over any boundaries and are careful not to if you tell them they accidentally did so.  However, one particular group of plurals, the sysmedicalists, have been quite the opposite of our described experience with the plural community. they have been quite rude and go out of their way to make people feel bad. sysmedicalists often go around and terrorizing anyone who doesn't have a lick of trauma. often calling them fake or harmful to the rest of the community in some way. the communities they target often are the endogenic communities and the tulpa hobby communities. the first thing i want to address is their attitude towards the endogenic community. the sysmedicalists often strictly target this community, they often purposely go out of their way to find pretty much the bad outliers of the endogenic community and portray them as the entire endogenic community.  some excuses for this harmful behavior ive heard are the endogenic community is preventing people with actual DID from getting treatment. the problem with this is that most endogenic systems i find distinctly differentiate themselves from those with DID. they even go out of their way to say that their plurality has nothing to do with trauma, even going as far as to exclude those with trauma related plurality from their spaces. up next we have their harassment of the tulpa hobbyists. their primary excuse for harassing the tulpa hobiests typically are they are being culturally appropriative of closed Tibetan religious practices. when they call it a “closed religious practice” it really makes it sound like they are trying to cover up for a cult. as cults often have certain practices that the public is not allowed to know about or don't want them participating in. when they say this, it makes them look like they are defending a cult. even though they are likely not.  this is like saying Mormon blood atonement is a “closed religious practice” when really it was a harmful cultlike practice. it makes a genuinely harmless practice seem like a harmfull one on the outside, and ironically lets people sympathize with the tulpamancers as people who are uncovering a harmful practice and turning it into something good, dispite western tulpamancy being nothing like the Buddhist practice of sprulpa.

and about the whole cultural appropriation thing, the sysmedicalists don't understand the difference between cultural diffusion and cultural appropriation. in cultural diffusion, a concept from one culture gets introduced into another culture, like the sprulpa from Buddhism getting introduced into western culture. then what happens is that idea gets mixed in into the ideas of the culture it is being introduced to. so this  Buddhist sprulpa gets diffused into the concept of the western tulpa, which is not a practice of traditional Buddhism nor an original practice from western culture. it is a new practice that anyone can use or follow.  in cultural appropriation, you take the idea of one culture and wrongly claim it has allways been your culture. this would be like if i said that  sprulpa was a uniquely American concept, and has nothing related to Buddhism whatsoever. i can see where the symedicalists confuse diffusion with appropriation. however, appropriation is not going on, as the tulpa in itself is a diffused concept and not a stolen concept. one could argue that all cultural diffusion is cultural appropriation, as it requires that you initially take a concept form one culture and integrate it into your culture. however, in diffusion, a twist is put on the initial concept, usually involving your own culture, therefore generating an entirely new concept in which is unique to both cultures. and endrant

[sophieinwonderland]

There are a lot of development pathways.

But before we get into that, I would say that this is less about "fragmentation" and more about "compartmentalization." Dissociative barriers would probably be better conceived as walls rather than something being broken apart.

In the case of trauma, it's barriers built to protect people from damage. Generally painful memories.

But for other systems the question is what causes this compartmentalization. And to be clear, what we have now is just speculation. While the existence of other forms of plurality is real, the cause is hard to determine for certain and all we have is theories.

The Emergent Multiple: Natural Multiplicity

This theory would say that, as the human consciousness emerges, it simply naturally compartmentalizes into multiple headmates for some people.

When you think about it, it's kind of weird that so many have only a single personality. Remember, a brain isn't one thing. It's billions of neurons working together. And try as we might, we don't know how consciousness emerges from these cells. We don't know how we're able to think like we do.

The theory of structural dissociation does suggest that, in childhood, children naturally have a less integrated personality. So maybe, due to some anomaly, some brains just naturally compartmentalize into multiple headmates instead of one.

It's also possible that singlethood itself is sociogenic. Basically, most people form into singlets because they observe everyone else as singlets and perceive them as such in a singlet-normative society. In which case, something as simple as having a different perspective of people as a child could result in this compartmentalization.

Before we can understand the cause of natural multiplicity, we would need to understand the cause of singlethood and how a singlet consciousness emerges from the billions of neurons in their brain.

Created Systems From Self-Hypnosis

This is a theory I've seen from Dr. Samuel Veissiere in his study of tulpamancers, where he suggested these sorts of created systems involved self-hypnosis. Hypnosis has long been considered closely related to dissociation, and some have postulated the existence of a "hidden observer" in hypnosis as a dissociated part of the personality.

In a recent AMA on r/tulpas, Dr. Michael Lifshitz discussed findings in an fMRI study of tulpa systems that showed the brain activity of tulpamancers while a tulpa was possessing a limb was similar to that of people who have been hypnotized. So that's cool and does lend some weight to this hypothesis!

I'm not really convinced this is the cause for this sort of plurality, actually. But at least similar mechanisms seem involved in ceding control to the nonfronting headmate.

Brains Are Weird

This is the most cop-out answer possible, but well, they are. You mention several examples of pseudo-plurality, but one that everyone overlooks that everybody experiences is dreaming. Because yeah, every night a singlet goes to sleep, they drift off into an inner world where their brain creates multiple autonomous people to populate that land. And even many lucid dreamers can't control the people in the dreams even when they can control other things in the dreams. Dream characters just do whatever they want. And we all just accept this weirdness. 🤷‍♀️

We personally have one headmate who we dragged directly into our system from a lucid dream. And according to a poll I did, more than half of mixed origin and traumagenic systems had at least one headmate who originated from dreams.

So is there a connection here? Could a singlet just dream of someone and then wake up with that as a headmate afterwards? I mean, this seems unlikely. But we have no idea how any of this works.

And that's the point I want to get across with this. Because I don't know if this is a real way systems can form. But there are a lot of unknowns and things we don't understand about dreaming.

If nothing else, this should be proof that the brain just sort of has an ability to make multiple people. Even if these dream characters aren't permanent, for the time they exist, they must have been compartmentalized somehow.

On "Pseudo-Plurality"

the pseudo plurality caused by psychosis, delusions, MADD, etc?

Is this only psuedo-plurality?

I actually don't think of most delusions as being related to plurality.

But I believe some hallucinations can be when those hallucinations seem autonomous and demonstrate self-awareness. And this paper on hearing hostile voices has suggested the same.

There are two kinds of dissociation. Compartmentalization and detachment.

Compartmentalization involves separating headmates. (It also involves separating non-headmate parts and memories, which is why dissociative amnesia exists even with non-systems.)

When we talk about plurality, the type involved is general compartmentalization. While detachment is what happens when you switch. (And also in DPDR.)

So, what if a daydream character or imaginary friends developed all the personality and autonomy and self-awareness of a full headmate... but they just couldn't switch because they didn't develop the skills to?

It's my belief that there are probably a lot of systems out there who are unaware, who have fully-developed self-aware headmates, but dismiss the people in their head as just their imagination or just hallucinations because they aren't able to switch.

Reminder: System has been a shared community term since the 90s.

System has a broad usage in the field of psychology for referring to parts of a person, such as in internal family systems therapy. There is no solid medical definition that only applies to people DID and OSDD. Psychologists and psychiatrists studying endogenic and non-disordered systems are calling also calling them systems.

The World Health Organization's ICD-11 affirms the existence of non-disordered and endogenic plurality. Transgender Mental Health, written by Dr Eric Yarbrough and published by the American Psychiatric Association states that you can be plural without trauma. Endogenic systems have also been supported by experts like Dr. Colin Ross. Numerous studies into these other forms of plurality have been conducted and are being conducted as we speak. This includes an fMRI study into tulpa systems showing neurological changes during possession.

Relying on institutions to determine if you should support people's identities and believe their experiences isn't very "punk" of you, and you should respect people's right to self-determination regardless.

But if anti-endos do want to have this discussion, they should know that the doctors don't support them either.

The existence of endogenic and non-disordered systems is not up for debate.

The anti-endo position is not rooted in science or psychology. It's rooted in hate, bigotry, and internalized ableism.

And will be no safe spaces for hate and bigotry.