#anti twinkification

[justsumtransdude2000]

People who twinkify Regulus/Sirius and make James/Remus (respectively) big and strong haven't unpacked heteronormativity and still believe - maybe even subconsciously - that every relationship has a 'man' and a woman.' In this essay I will-

[twink-remus-lupin]

every time sirius black gets depicted as a petite twink i lose a brain cell

[cuddlytogas]

i know it's mean, but sometimes i see fanart of a cis male character, and i'm just like... really? you promise me hot men, and you give me this? why is his waist so high and snatched? why are his hips so round? why does he have a perfect peach of an arse? you call this masc?

to be clear, i'm not talking about genderbends. and i know one shouldn't judge what may be a stage in someone's artistic journey, using a familiar style or practiced shapes. but for real... sometimes i feel like the only fucker in the room who actually likes men. (ignoring the frequency with which that's factually true lmao) like, i also like feminine shapes, don't get me wrong! but i thought some of us were also here for... the men...?

don't we also appreciate a flatter bum? low, slim hips? the little ditch above them, rather than an hourglass waist? the gentle line from waist to chest, the squareness of it? flat chests and broad shoulders? body hair?? bulges?? we do know it's not a crime to like these things...

... right?

[chronicroderick]

THISSS. So far Top!Will Graham with his hunk self is the only thing that feels natural

Confessional (Priest!Hannibal)

Old Games (Blood Kink?)

Bro the twinkification of Will Graham will always bother me because that man is not a bottom nor submissive. Like, he’s defo bossy, maybe bratty at times but he is not a himbo or a twink.

• • •

Hannibal Lecter on the other hand- /j

[k9mark69]

me: wow idk if the master has ever had a non-sexy actor

my anti-superwholock psychological defense system, built up through years of twinkification exposure and lameass m/m ships: JOHN SIMM

me: um, no,

[dysfunctionaldogdude]

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[thecoolerliauditore]

sorry if this is unnecessry, i can't really tell if i'm the one being talked about with regards to having anti-twink sentiments? deeply funny sentence, but that really wasn't my intention. live and let live, etc

i do disagree that, in this fandom specifically, being against "twink" designs is based in homophobia and femphobia in particular. i could probably go through all the accounts that use the term twinkification and see various neopronouns and posts about crossdressing. of course queer people can always be homophobic, but i truly believe this is more of a general annoyance with the dominance of thin/permanently 20yo/anime designs than of the feminine aspect. or annoyance with the dominance of men, in some cases. ultimately, this is wildly subjective and very easily disagreeable on unless someone decides to do a widescale survey so. live and let live.

i was indeed very flippant about distinguishing between feminine and twink, but i believe i hold a different perspective to this than you both. gay men are indeed not recognized as men, or only as "failed" men, which marks them as lesser than men, which marks them as feminine. that is the crux of a significant portion of recent historical homophobia! this goes for a number of other attributes that, when thought about logically, shouldn't make anyone unmasculine, but because of patriarchy et al, it does. if you cry, you're a girl. if you're short, you're a girl. if you care about women, you're a girl. if you're a twink, you're a girl. if you're gay, you're a girl. hence me often switching between the two. yes, it would be nice to live in a post-gender world where these traits aren't seen as pejoratives, or the distinction between masculine and feminine wouldn't matter at all, but society(tm). i personally believe it's useful to acknowledge how "ungendered" traits ARE gendered, even if this gendering is rooted in bigoted history

but, for the sake of clarity, here's a lightning round of how i would define different grian designs: just a guy - thin, short, hairless, probably has anime hair, what most people call twink ; femboy - same as before but with uke style lashes and lips, generally rendered with a "feminine" face, often in "submissive" poses (or as a power bottom), maybe has tits and hips? ; woman - actual woman ; british man - not thin

anyway, feel free to not answer this if you think this is too discourse-y or unproductive. maybe i just misread it and we're literally not even disagreeing about anything. this is largely a non-issue compared to like, the racism in the fandom, or the actual gender gap in the cast, or the hermit tcg essentially being gambling lol.

ps. i wonder why butch designs are so uncommon?

my entire blog is unnecessary and discourse-y man send in whatever you want. my existence is discourse-y and I like it when people disagree with me (and LOVE IT when they agree with me).

So first off I think we're actually on the same page in regard to traits that should be gender-neutral but aren't due to societal biases, hence why I used my Grian as an example in the first place. I, designing him, did not intend for him to be read as feminine but I acknowledge that his traits could be seen as feminizing to others -- and the original anon who had asked me had specifically asked why Grian was more feminized than others, to which my first thought was "...Is he? Idk I feel like he just gets drawn younger?"

This is why homophobia/femphobia is relevant, despite that not being the intention, when people complain about "twink designs" they conflate those traits with femininity as a whole and stuff gets caught in the crossfire. The people who I see complain about twink designs are usually queer yes, but they are also usually young and not exactly the most brushed up on their history or have very little respect for their fellow queer artists. You don't need a homophobic bone in your body to echo homophobic sentiments, especially in the current online climate where so much conservatism has become repackaged as morality.

I also think misogyny is much more relevant to this discussion than homophobia, although those things kind of go hand in hand. e.g. why are "permanently 20" designs bad in the first place, especially when that younger look historically is a stylistic choice that appeals to women? There's obviously nuance to this i.e. the whole "conventionally attractive" thing

It's more that I want people who dislike "twink" designs to examine what they're actually saying. Like, consider,in real life are skinny petite men really considered "conventionally" attractive when every second guy I know is worried about being under 6ft and "sexiest man alive" magazines have line ups like this?

I just think a lot of people have warped perceptions of what is considered "conventionally attractive" in men because they're accustomed to seeing designs made by young queer women. What is "conventionally attractive" in a fandom space is very different from what is "conventionally attractive" irl.

My point is just that I think a lot of people need to take a step back and realise they're not fighting against societal beauty standards, they're fighting against tropes that have historically appealed to teenage girls (alot of whom don't even like men!). And it's okay to dislike these tropes, just um. Make your own stuff instead of complaining to the artist or calling them names?

And I must clarify again that I AM one of those people who is less keen on "twink" designs and prefers to communicate more masculinity and age. I hateeee the art styles of things like genshin and also kinda giggle at some of the more femboy-leaning designs I've seen for characters I don't associate with those tropes. And I do think we're in agreement for the most part? "Live and let live" like you said is the main point here and it. Really is not serious. People are still gonna draw them as little cartoon guys who typically look younger just by virtue of being cartoons + the audience being younger and therefore more likely to see themselves in the stylization. Take it away, Scott McCloud.

I really. don't give a fuck about people being haters. I too am a hater. But if you're QRTing luminousslime's artwork with the hot yaoi base meme, I'm gonna think you're a bit of a bitch.

I could get into more specific examples but I don't want to put anyone on the spot. Point is I think people over-obsess over avoiding being one of the Bad Ones and sometimes that turns into some very hateful stuff said about other artists who they've deemed as one of the Bad Ones. Like at the end of the day draw whatever you want, dislike whatever you want, just don't try to justify bullying. Unless you're actively sending in hate asks I don't careeeee have anti-whatever sentiments you want.

I can't find the tags anymore but someone even rb'd my original post about this talking about feeling fujoshi guilt over twink grian, so I can confirm that there is at least one person who's been made to feel shamed over the way this fandom talks about "twink" designs and how that is very much linked to anti-fujoshi stuff.

That PS is interesting and I could go on a whole tangent about it. Personally I think it's a mixture of the attitude that masculinity = boring that I mentioned in thee original post and a distinct lack of butch representation in media that leaves people with very little mental material to work with. If you asked me to name popular femboys in fiction, I would immediately start listing off characters like Angel Dust from HH, Felix from Re;Zero, Astolfo from Fate, so on. Even outside of the realm of online culture, I'm willing to bet most people could name at least on drag queen.

In contrast, does anyone here know who Spikey Van Dykey is? I saw several RPDR fans who didn't even know Drag Kings were a thing at all when discourse started up about the Thai version of that show confirmed they welcomed Drag Kings to compete.

It's even worse when you get to drawn media where childrens shows female characters often have their femininity accentuated as The Girl One and the marketability of "pretty anime girl" is hard to pass up in media aimed towards older audiences, as is often the allure of drawing pretty anime girl. When talking about anime specifically, Japanese gender roles are also a very damning factor in the storylines and designs of masculine women. You're lucky to get a tomboy who actually looks masc, let alone a butch (<-- take this with a grain of salt since the concept of "butch" doesn't really translate one to one culturally)

I could keep going about the concept of "tomboys" and how it's become very weird in the last few years but. sighs.

Anyway female CCs tend to have very overtly feminine (i.e. more detailed and "prettier") skins as well which might be a factor, masculinizing a design would probably mean taking away fun little trinkets instead of adding your own which isn't appealing to most people. Thinking about this post

like it's obviously not the same thing but.

you see what I mean ?

There's definitely some more. complicated stuff in there about taking away a woman's femininity and internalized misogyny but. yeah. it's own discussion. feminine women and masculine women both get shafted, feminine men get shafted, but you never see complaints that a man is too masculine.

[abeanthroughthelookingglass]

My favorite thing about Hercule Poirot is how explicitly anti-twinkification he is. He’d hate that shit happening to him.

[patrochillesvibes]

Ant!-TSoA people and people who agree with 👆 this opinion, I want you to ask yourselves the following questions:

Why do I think having emotions and being anti-war is considered feminine and weak?

Why do I equate weakness with femininity?

Why am I associating professions with gender?

Am I bothered by Patroclus being “feminine” or am I really bothered by the idea of a man being feminine?

Why didn’t I include in my call-out post a complaint against the feminization/twinkification of Achilles by fans?

Do I consider feminization/twinkification of Achilles as acceptable because he is “white”?

[drakkonyan]

I'm drawing wrinkles on my old men oh boy

OHHHHH BOY

More people should do this I love how "yeha that man is mid 30s" they look

Blessed be the anti-twinkification

[15ktherapy]

looking at irl I’ve followed for years no idea why— fear maybe? whatever look she reblogs an anti twinkification post which like. okay. it was for two particular characters which. yeah okay. but overall like. if someone has a limited art style and you can see that it’s like same face same body syndrome I’ll let that shit slide bc they haven’t got there y et—

BUT TAHST NOT THE POINT. the point. is that this person. it’s a big That’s Funny Coming From You thing like girl you’ve had anime twink style since we were in middle school what are you judging for? so you don’t draw them at all? idiot ?

[mmelolabelle]

I really need lucemond fic writers to take into account that

a. Luke is the son of Harwin ‘Breakbones’ Strong, so grown-up Luke? Tall. Hench. Strong as fuck both physically and genetically. Therefore could 100% lift a particularly angry and murderous Aemond over his shoulder and just walk out of the room like “sorry about him folks, nothing to see here”. Like that Rhaenyra/Harwin scene in 1x05 except instead of protecting his love interest from everyone else in the room Luke is protecting everyone else in the room from Aemond

b. Aemond is scary-scary 24/7 but Lucerys is all cute and earnest and fluffy until he’s not and that is infinitely more terrifying? Like Luke is still a Targaryen do not let the bastard discourse fool you. Under the chubby cheeks, adorable hair and self-doubt he is as unhinged as the rest of them.

[rmoony12]

.

People who twinkify Regulus/Sirius and make James/Remus (respectively) big and strong haven't unpacked heteronormativity and still believe - maybe even subconsciously - that every relationship has a 'man' and a woman.' In this essay I will-

[thecoolerliauditore]

One small thing I think a lot of people seem to have trouble differenciating twink and fem, like they can overlap but they are not interchangeable and one of my biggest complaints about the anti-twink thing is that when most people say it they mena anti-fem. Which... I will not get into it but I will point out that throughout all of western history from greeks looking down on gay men who take on the "feminine" role of bottoming to the edwardians with their "feminine gay men are a third gender" ideas, to the late 20th centurys misguided respectability politics of "straight gay" and "manly gay" and the distane for overtly feminine or camp gay men as offensive that followed, any percieved femininity in men being bad is a time honoured tradition even among queer folk. You even see it within the minor acceptance of gnc aesthetics where femboys and fem androgyny get backlash while bearish men wearing makeup and pink are praised as being more gnc. Kaz Rowe has touched on this topic in their videos on occassion alongside other similar topics. People WILL find a way to rag on men for daring to be feminine even within spaces made for feminine men...

... but that's all getting way too deep into queer history and far away from mcyt fandom, but I think about that a lot whenever I see someone using twinkification to complain about the overtly or implicitely feminine features specifically rather than the boyish and youthful aesthetics of twinks as a whole. There's overlap as you said in being clean shaven and petit but I do not think a lot of people have actually sat down enough to break it down and think about why they dislike those particular features that are often sited. A common example: being short is in fact not a twinkish trait, its a fem trait. This is a general issue of unmasculine = feminine to most people and the lack of acknowledgment of androgyny or ungendered traits. Either youre manly or youre not and if youre not youre fem, and if youre fem and a man especially a gay man that's bad.

I don't think anyone is being overtly misogynistic I just think as the internet spaces are wont to do they've moralized their preferences or examined the social acceptability of them as much as they would like to believe. Its like complaining about dyed hair and pride flags being the default popular option, you are in the counterculture space where those things are finally acceptable and people are allowing themselves to express those traits. Please learn to separate preferences from morality.

.... sorry i went on a tangent I think I dont remember why im here talking about this...

Not much to add except that this is a good add on, and alot of this also acts as another reason I try to emphasize that I don't pass moral judgments based on how people draw characters -- I too have biases I could easily project onto others and what is moral in my worldview could be the opposite for someone else with a different mindset.

FYI I do agree on the young twinkish /=/ fem, using my own designs as examples again I do think my Grian and Scott you could argue are feminized compared to their respective CCs, but I wouldn't call them feminine on their own. I mean there's definitely wiggle room and something there about comparing designs inspired by anime tropes which stem from Japanese beauty standards and conceptualizations of masculinity to maybe some of the whitest men currently walking planet earth but. yeah in my opinion my Grian isn't fem he's just a twink which other people might see as "feminized" -- I just made the assumption anon was at least partially talking about designs like mine because I feel like he's pretty much the standard fanon grian design to me unless the entire grian tag started drawing him with eyelashes whilst I wasn't looking. Psychosexual game of telephone.

But anyway yessss good shout on the queer history, I was actually just on a derek guy thread mentioning the "manly gays" of the 80s who dressed in a way to combat the effeminate reputation gay men had (and thus alienated the gay men who Were feminine). He talked about how a lot of that style has now gone mainstream and been adopted by very homophobic men which is very funny and ironic but also interesting how that loops back into itself.

Also got interested in the videos you mentioned and this was the one I watched (cus I found it first)

LOTS of good points in here I think people should know because this made me realise despite how influential anime is on this fandom, most of the people here aren't necessarily weebs or aware of fujoshi history. Really liked the points about xenophobia and how western BL is held up as "progressive" whereas asian BL is "problematic" in peoples minds as well as the mentioning that a lot of the strongest anti-fujo sentiment comes from people who would very much be considered fujoshi by the men who coined the term. This comment sums it up better than I could, I think.

Because. Yeah. Thinking about that point I talked about awhile back where a lot of the people who I've seen hate on "anime twink grian" have very twinkish designs themselves. It also seems to be a sliding scale of what a "twink" even is, this is a non-fandom example but I was reading this manga with a friend and they called this character a "twink", which I think really emphasizes how a lot of peoples conception of "twink" is more of an amorphous concept than just the body type.

So what you end up with is people who draw very standard Grians and then hate on others for drawing more or less the same design but in a more explicitly anime-inspired style or like. slightly smaller/skinnier.

I'd be interested to hear what your disagreements are with the video cus personally I'm not so sure about the roundabout "But Bad Yaoi is still Bad" stuff which is essentially still the same Good Queer, Bad Queer attitude that haunts so much queer discourse but that's just me. Also not entirely sure about the women liking BL because they like men, nearly all of the fujos I know have very little interest in men irl, but I'm also very much surrounded by queer people so my data is also biased.

REALLY GOOD POINT ABOUT THE TERF/ANTI-FUJO OVERLAP TOO. Not much to add in that regard but it's been something I've noticed and I'm glad I'm not the only one. I remember seeing a lot very. Strange stuff coming from people with rainbow flags in their bio about the creator of the webtoon Boyfriends when I was paying more attenton to webtoons.

I think you mentioned the whole. pushback against twink designs being counter-counterculture awhile back and I think that sums it up really well. Let men be masculine, etc etc

And all of this really doesn't even? Mean much from me I think cus I'd like to think most of my designs although differing from the CCs ARE pretty recognizable as 30+ men with like. very minimal frills (long haired etho clawed out of me kicking and screaming I think). So I really do not have a horse in this race at all lmao I just don't like people trying to police fandom with nebulous assertions of morality, especially when it's like. That video of the hyper-woke dude and the trump fanboy who have different takes about topics but arrive at the same conclusions. Girl just draw your own shit if you don't like luminousslime it really is not that serious and sometimes a specific design just. leaves a deep impression on the fandom consciousness. What I said before about how I appreciate people who just make their own shit instead of complaining that they're not being catered to.

[thecoolerliauditore]

ONE LAST THING "starting to suspect people don't share my love for middle-aged guys who look like middle-aged guys" I THINK YOU MIGHT NOT BE LOOKING IN THE RIGHT PLACES..... does "dilfpulse saturday" ring any bell

I think the character that I've drawn who gets the most "respectfully looking😳😳😳" comments is Impulse and by like. A pretty noticeable amount. And I'd like to think my Impulse is at least passable as middle-aged

And considering the pushback the fandom gave when he said he'd rather be drawn skinnier (as well as the relative disappointment I've seen some people express about some of his TCG art where he looks noticeably younger), it seems people love fanon Impulse as-is.

And while the CCs aren't really my thing I've definitely seen people breaking down how attractive the Arizona dads are, mostly in more mature spaces though.

The anti-twinkification attitudes in of itself is kind of a reflection of this (<-- saying most of because as I mentioned before a lot of the loudest voices there are deeply hypocritical). People loveeee designs that look like the CCs or just look older in general.

It does get a little bit complicated what with the fandom being so young. Thinking about that on confession anon who called grian "middle aged" and getting chills. And the amount of younger artists who slap some lines on chins in fear of "twinkifying" so you kinda have to sift through those to find the people who Really Like Old Men but they're there.

Still doesn't really answer the question of "why grian specifically" but there is. definitely a middle-aged man appreciation side of this fandom lol.

third time getting this ask deleted, i don't think the universe wants my thoughts on fem grian out there :(

i don't even actually have any problem with this interpretation. it's just both very interesting and silly to me. there is a non-insignificant amount of fanwork that emphasizes grian as having a small, thin waist and general petite frame. nothing wrong with that, but deeply amusing as someone who generally doesn't see the c!lifers' human builds as significantly different from their irl counterparts. starting to suspect people don't share my love for middle-aged guys who look like middle-aged guys... maybe i watch too much british comedy.

ultimately i do agree that it's due to grian being more uke-viable than the other two in mumscarian. which is interesting, because you could argue that mumbo shares a lot of the same "effeminate" traits (higher-pitched voice, not a hulking brute force, sneaky and conniving, young, skinny?) which just proves the power of the Guy with Suit and Moustache branding. exceptions to this are when mumbo gets to have a nice long dress, but i still think the way grian gets feminized is different to that.

something else i find interesting is that grian's deception and manipulation (and power?) is sometimes the sole reason for his feminization getting pushed from generic twink to femboy/literal woman. which is something that i don't think i can do justice pontificating about. i mean this less in a "that's kind of misogynistic way" (well, sort of) and more like, ok what kind of psychosexual game of telephone is happening here. martyn or scott don't really get this treatment, despite (imo) both being valid contenders for evil womanification.

does any of this matter? absolutely not. men shipped in yaoi pairs will get interestingly gendered one way or another. it just so happens that a very specific domino effect lead to grian getting hit with the twinkification beam at a disproportional rate to the others. the only factor that is unique to grian in getting twinkified and feminized is the 3px skin. all others are shared (gremlin-ness, shortness, voice, cuteness, youth, being evil?, sneaky, manipulative) ergo it really is the 3px skin difference. thank you for your time.

also sorry if it seemed like i was assuming you were a grian fan, i legitimately wasn't lol i just sent it to you because of aforementioned gender mentions and you general Goodness in talking about fandom meta.

last thing i'll say is i mournfully agree with the menswear section. i do wish that we could combat more against the "men's fashion/design is boring" sentiment in general fandom. character involving menswear is such an untapped treasure trove that it's baffling to me. alas.

oh please don't worry I was just trying to clarify I wasn't knowledgeable on grian, I love discussions like this! I just didn't want to like. yap a whole bunch and then hit you with the "ok so I don't actually watch Grian all that much" (like I genuinely had completely forgotten about Mother Spore)

"psychosexual game of telephone" is very real and I think I'm going to adopt that into my vocabulary from now on. Scott's name being here is interesting because I actively try not to bring him up in every discussion nowadays, but I do think he is also feminized in fanon but in a way very different to Grian.

My Scott design at least I think you could make that argument for since I based alot of him off of my favourite pretty boys/bishounen, with the eyelashes visible and whatnot, but I tried to at least make it somewhat clear that he is a Man. He even kind of got hit with the detwinkification ray the more I drew him.

And idk fanon Scott is like. It's own brand of fascinating to me because I used to see a lot of people claim he was a "fem gay man" and I was like???????? is he???????????? I suppose his masculinity is a very queer brand of masculinity but it still very much reads as masculinity to me. Very "cis gay man" as he says himself. When I see the words "fem gay man" I am not imagining Scott Smajor, that much is for sure.

There's also just not that many Scott artists relative to the rest of the characters but what art I do see of him tends to lean either anime twink. Weight and body type is also a factor here I think is worth exploring but aughhhh shutting up about Scott. Point is I do think he gets his fair share of feminization but it's complicated with him cus you have to factor in him being The Gay One (and the associations people have with that) and his whole persona being very Cute 🌺

But yes yes anyway I do think Mumbo's moustache does him wonders, as does the CC's reputation for being a giant.

And while none of this Really matters I also don't think any of our lives Really matter and I think these trends are interesting so. We may as well have fun studying them. It's times like these where I wish I could have the brazen-ness to just yoink people's art and put them next to their takes about the character to really, really get in there but I'd feel rude 😔

FTR re the whole nothing wrong with it thing I agree! And you can look at this silly thing I drew for April Fools for my opinion on fanon designs and body types. I am a massive hypocrite in a lot of ways and I think sometimes you do just gotta break down the biases that make you view a certain set of traits a certain way and go. Wow okay that's interesting. and just kinda leave.

My Pearl design for example has some misogynistic implications -- hell, all of my designs for the women lifers are on the shorter side. My Pearl is shorter than my Bdubs and Joel who have entire gags surrounding them about being short! CC Pearl is very much not cute moe anime girl, I turned her character into cute moe anime girl. And I'd do it any day. Minus one point for me in the feminism and body positivity categories 😔 and I'd do it again.

It's whatever man. Humans have biases built on millions of years of history and people also have their own individual beliefs and preferences influenced by that history. and I think seeing that show through people's minecraft youtuber designs like little bits and pieces of worldviews is REALLY COOL. and while I'm also a biased human being who has my tastes I genuinely do think this is really fascinating.

Ok sorry this really got away from me can you tell I like this topic lmao. I just think it's really cool when you get unlimited perspectives on a certain set of traits applied onto a very interpretable design like a minecraft skin

Fist bump on the menswear btw. Makes me wanna draw that self-indulgent idea I had awhile back where I just use the lifers as my fashion dolls. Idk I just think Etho would kill in some Japanese techwear