#anti twinkification

[justsumtransdude2000]

People who twinkify Regulus/Sirius and make James/Remus (respectively) big and strong haven't unpacked heteronormativity and still believe - maybe even subconsciously - that every relationship has a 'man' and a woman.' In this essay I will-

[violetastridhotd]

I just enjoy that we as a fandom all collectively agree that if Lucerys had lived, he would have rocked the smoothest, thickest beard, just like his god damn daddy.

[multi-fandom-lunatic]

harry potter needs to die.

[twink-remus-lupin]

every time sirius black gets depicted as a petite twink i lose a brain cell

[cuddlytogas]

i know it's mean, but sometimes i see fanart of a cis male character, and i'm just like... really? you promise me hot men, and you give me this? why is his waist so high and snatched? why are his hips so round? why does he have a perfect peach of an arse? you call this masc?

to be clear, i'm not talking about genderbends. and i know one shouldn't judge what may be a stage in someone's artistic journey, using a familiar style or practiced shapes. but for real... sometimes i feel like the only fucker in the room who actually likes men. (ignoring the frequency with which that's factually true lmao) like, i also like feminine shapes, don't get me wrong! but i thought some of us were also here for... the men...?

don't we also appreciate a flatter bum? low, slim hips? the little ditch above them, rather than an hourglass waist? the gentle line from waist to chest, the squareness of it? flat chests and broad shoulders? body hair?? bulges?? we do know it's not a crime to like these things...

... right?

[chronicroderick]

THISSS. So far Top!Will Graham with his hunk self is the only thing that feels natural

Confessional (Priest!Hannibal)

Old Games (Blood Kink?)

Bro the twinkification of Will Graham will always bother me because that man is not a bottom nor submissive. Like, he’s defo bossy, maybe bratty at times but he is not a himbo or a twink.

• • •

Hannibal Lecter on the other hand- /j

[jack-kellys]

so we all know life is a circle. thus fandom is a circle. we see things come back around like the de/twinkification of racetrack higgins. or cowboy versus artist jack kelly. or "mom" friend david jacobs and the perpetual need to make the newsies some kind of heteronormative family. and yet again we've found our way back to the anti katherine pulitzer arc of her "getting in the way" of jack and davey's popular subtextual/fanon relationship. (yes im late nevermind that.)

now, not being a katherine fan is different than being anti-katherine. not being a katherine fan means you might have criticisms like "i'm not sure how she serves the newsies narrative better than, say, sarah jacobs, as sarah is more aligned with the newsies contextually/societally and katherine is very distant and rich lol", or even "i'm not a big fan of how katherine seems to be tired of jack's shit for most of the play and then 'suddenly' finds romantic interest in him within one song".

but being anti-singular-young-woman-character because of a ship between the main two boys is. a tired take is it not? again with the circle, we've had this discourse already and its been cut out. since 2012 and 2017 we been talking about this girl and her value, but not in the context we should be.

(because the context we should be talking about it in is a newsies 1992 versus newsies broadway context, not an anti-katherine context, but i digress.)

katherine's value. what is there to mine from? she is an extremely young woman reporter, 17-18 years old, whose article makes the front page of the new york sun. since she writes under a pseudonym, i'm presuming she writes with skill well above her age to be published at all (yes, even writing vaudeville reviews). in past productions she either finds the newsies at jacobi's because she saw the walk-out (TWWK) from inside The World (UK), or jack kelly simply interests her enough for her to seek him out again (Broadway/Tour/Live). she is unsure about herself as a writer despite her skill which is made clear in her song. she is rich. she did not need to have a career and was encouraged not to. pulitzer is her father and she does not get along with him. she matches jack word for word, often with davey at her side. she mills comfortably about the newsies through the second act and has a friendship of some kind with specs specifically. she also literally says "that's a face [jack's] that could save us all from sinking in the ocean/like someone said 'power tends to corrupt'" essentially prophesying the act 2 betrayal. which is crazy.

you can draw your own conclusions from the above, but all of it is essentially canon? right? so maybe you don't have to be a fan of all of it, but you're really going to tell me absolutely none of this is compelling. that none of this is something you can interpret for yourself as complex. that albert is more complex.

this is not me saying you have to include katherine in everything, because that isn't what this post is about. this is about individuals choosing to dislike or devalue katherine by only viewing her in relation to her as a romantic interest, instead of a complex character in a period piece with a full arc. yes a full arc. it's the musical that's rushed not katherine.

@we-are-inevitable speaks on this extremely well in the comments of this post as well, more in connection to katherine as being a compelling romantic interest in the context of newsies speaking in the defense of love interests/often women characters. in this post i speak on how i would navigate jack/katherine as a director, and in this post i speak on how to direct something to believe in to make it, well, believable, aside from its awful writing for both kath and jack. because again, fandom is a circle, and i literally talked about how to "fix" jatherine in august 2024. at length

[patrochillesvibes]

❤?

Which character do you think is the most egregiously mischaracterized by the fandom?

I did answer this one already, but I think I’ll take the opportunity to comment on a common headcanon/complaint about Patroclus.

Patroclus is NOT a twink in The Song of Achilles.

Patroclus cries in The Iliad while he begs Achilles to fight to save their friends. Patroclus is given the epithets of kind and gentle by Homer. He’s a well-liked good guy. Miller expands on this in TSoA.

TSoA is actually a conversation between Patroclus and Thetis. At the end of the book, Thetis visits Patroclus’ shade and asks him to tell her his stories about her son. And so he tells her their love story which is the story laid out in TSoA. The story is told from the perspective of a post-war and post-death Patroclus. He is jaded and full of regret, so of course he is now anti-war and wants to downplay his role in the violence. Like Achilles, he too has realized what a waste the war was and how foolish men have been (pride, glory, etc.).

I think it’s super fucked up to think that being anti-war makes you a woman. I think it’s super fucked up to think that picking the profession of healing (doctor) over killing (solider) makes you a woman. But I think it’s the most fucked up of all to think having feelings makes you a woman.

And while we’re at it, why is being a woman or being feminine bad? Why is it considered lesser? And considered weak?

And so what if he does happen to be a twink? What’s wrong with being a twink? Honestly tho I think 90% of the people on his website have never met an actual gay man irl.

When you make your complaints about the “twinkification” of Patroclus, you’re just unmasking yourself as deeply homophobic, heteronormative, and brainwashed by toxic masculinity.

[k9mark69]

me: wow idk if the master has ever had a non-sexy actor

my anti-superwholock psychological defense system, built up through years of twinkification exposure and lameass m/m ships: JOHN SIMM

me: um, no,

[thecoolerliauditore]

sorry if this is unnecessry, i can't really tell if i'm the one being talked about with regards to having anti-twink sentiments? deeply funny sentence, but that really wasn't my intention. live and let live, etc

i do disagree that, in this fandom specifically, being against "twink" designs is based in homophobia and femphobia in particular. i could probably go through all the accounts that use the term twinkification and see various neopronouns and posts about crossdressing. of course queer people can always be homophobic, but i truly believe this is more of a general annoyance with the dominance of thin/permanently 20yo/anime designs than of the feminine aspect. or annoyance with the dominance of men, in some cases. ultimately, this is wildly subjective and very easily disagreeable on unless someone decides to do a widescale survey so. live and let live.

i was indeed very flippant about distinguishing between feminine and twink, but i believe i hold a different perspective to this than you both. gay men are indeed not recognized as men, or only as "failed" men, which marks them as lesser than men, which marks them as feminine. that is the crux of a significant portion of recent historical homophobia! this goes for a number of other attributes that, when thought about logically, shouldn't make anyone unmasculine, but because of patriarchy et al, it does. if you cry, you're a girl. if you're short, you're a girl. if you care about women, you're a girl. if you're a twink, you're a girl. if you're gay, you're a girl. hence me often switching between the two. yes, it would be nice to live in a post-gender world where these traits aren't seen as pejoratives, or the distinction between masculine and feminine wouldn't matter at all, but society(tm). i personally believe it's useful to acknowledge how "ungendered" traits ARE gendered, even if this gendering is rooted in bigoted history

but, for the sake of clarity, here's a lightning round of how i would define different grian designs: just a guy - thin, short, hairless, probably has anime hair, what most people call twink ; femboy - same as before but with uke style lashes and lips, generally rendered with a "feminine" face, often in "submissive" poses (or as a power bottom), maybe has tits and hips? ; woman - actual woman ; british man - not thin

anyway, feel free to not answer this if you think this is too discourse-y or unproductive. maybe i just misread it and we're literally not even disagreeing about anything. this is largely a non-issue compared to like, the racism in the fandom, or the actual gender gap in the cast, or the hermit tcg essentially being gambling lol.

ps. i wonder why butch designs are so uncommon?

my entire blog is unnecessary and discourse-y man send in whatever you want. my existence is discourse-y and I like it when people disagree with me (and LOVE IT when they agree with me).

So first off I think we're actually on the same page in regard to traits that should be gender-neutral but aren't due to societal biases, hence why I used my Grian as an example in the first place. I, designing him, did not intend for him to be read as feminine but I acknowledge that his traits could be seen as feminizing to others -- and the original anon who had asked me had specifically asked why Grian was more feminized than others, to which my first thought was "...Is he? Idk I feel like he just gets drawn younger?"

This is why homophobia/femphobia is relevant, despite that not being the intention, when people complain about "twink designs" they conflate those traits with femininity as a whole and stuff gets caught in the crossfire. The people who I see complain about twink designs are usually queer yes, but they are also usually young and not exactly the most brushed up on their history or have very little respect for their fellow queer artists. You don't need a homophobic bone in your body to echo homophobic sentiments, especially in the current online climate where so much conservatism has become repackaged as morality.

I also think misogyny is much more relevant to this discussion than homophobia, although those things kind of go hand in hand. e.g. why are "permanently 20" designs bad in the first place, especially when that younger look historically is a stylistic choice that appeals to women? There's obviously nuance to this i.e. the whole "conventionally attractive" thing

It's more that I want people who dislike "twink" designs to examine what they're actually saying. Like, consider,in real life are skinny petite men really considered "conventionally" attractive when every second guy I know is worried about being under 6ft and "sexiest man alive" magazines have line ups like this?

I just think a lot of people have warped perceptions of what is considered "conventionally attractive" in men because they're accustomed to seeing designs made by young queer women. What is "conventionally attractive" in a fandom space is very different from what is "conventionally attractive" irl.

My point is just that I think a lot of people need to take a step back and realise they're not fighting against societal beauty standards, they're fighting against tropes that have historically appealed to teenage girls (alot of whom don't even like men!). And it's okay to dislike these tropes, just um. Make your own stuff instead of complaining to the artist or calling them names?

And I must clarify again that I AM one of those people who is less keen on "twink" designs and prefers to communicate more masculinity and age. I hateeee the art styles of things like genshin and also kinda giggle at some of the more femboy-leaning designs I've seen for characters I don't associate with those tropes. And I do think we're in agreement for the most part? "Live and let live" like you said is the main point here and it. Really is not serious. People are still gonna draw them as little cartoon guys who typically look younger just by virtue of being cartoons + the audience being younger and therefore more likely to see themselves in the stylization. Take it away, Scott McCloud.

I really. don't give a fuck about people being haters. I too am a hater. But if you're QRTing luminousslime's artwork with the hot yaoi base meme, I'm gonna think you're a bit of a bitch.

I could get into more specific examples but I don't want to put anyone on the spot. Point is I think people over-obsess over avoiding being one of the Bad Ones and sometimes that turns into some very hateful stuff said about other artists who they've deemed as one of the Bad Ones. Like at the end of the day draw whatever you want, dislike whatever you want, just don't try to justify bullying. Unless you're actively sending in hate asks I don't careeeee have anti-whatever sentiments you want.

I can't find the tags anymore but someone even rb'd my original post about this talking about feeling fujoshi guilt over twink grian, so I can confirm that there is at least one person who's been made to feel shamed over the way this fandom talks about "twink" designs and how that is very much linked to anti-fujoshi stuff.

That PS is interesting and I could go on a whole tangent about it. Personally I think it's a mixture of the attitude that masculinity = boring that I mentioned in thee original post and a distinct lack of butch representation in media that leaves people with very little mental material to work with. If you asked me to name popular femboys in fiction, I would immediately start listing off characters like Angel Dust from HH, Felix from Re;Zero, Astolfo from Fate, so on. Even outside of the realm of online culture, I'm willing to bet most people could name at least on drag queen.

In contrast, does anyone here know who Spikey Van Dykey is? I saw several RPDR fans who didn't even know Drag Kings were a thing at all when discourse started up about the Thai version of that show confirmed they welcomed Drag Kings to compete.

It's even worse when you get to drawn media where childrens shows female characters often have their femininity accentuated as The Girl One and the marketability of "pretty anime girl" is hard to pass up in media aimed towards older audiences, as is often the allure of drawing pretty anime girl. When talking about anime specifically, Japanese gender roles are also a very damning factor in the storylines and designs of masculine women. You're lucky to get a tomboy who actually looks masc, let alone a butch (<-- take this with a grain of salt since the concept of "butch" doesn't really translate one to one culturally)

I could keep going about the concept of "tomboys" and how it's become very weird in the last few years but. sighs.

Anyway female CCs tend to have very overtly feminine (i.e. more detailed and "prettier") skins as well which might be a factor, masculinizing a design would probably mean taking away fun little trinkets instead of adding your own which isn't appealing to most people. Thinking about this post

like it's obviously not the same thing but.

you see what I mean ?

There's definitely some more. complicated stuff in there about taking away a woman's femininity and internalized misogyny but. yeah. it's own discussion. feminine women and masculine women both get shafted, feminine men get shafted, but you never see complaints that a man is too masculine.

[abeanthroughthelookingglass]

My favorite thing about Hercule Poirot is how explicitly anti-twinkification he is. He’d hate that shit happening to him.

[thenightunfurls]

viktor anti-twinkification discourse is so funny to me. league players can frame it using excuses as lore preference and gameplay style all they want but I know ultimately all they're upset about are his little waist and his gay stroll

[drakkonyan]

I'm drawing wrinkles on my old men oh boy

OHHHHH BOY

More people should do this I love how "yeha that man is mid 30s" they look

Blessed be the anti-twinkification

[15ktherapy]

looking at irl I’ve followed for years no idea why— fear maybe? whatever look she reblogs an anti twinkification post which like. okay. it was for two particular characters which. yeah okay. but overall like. if someone has a limited art style and you can see that it’s like same face same body syndrome I’ll let that shit slide bc they haven’t got there y et—

BUT TAHST NOT THE POINT. the point. is that this person. it’s a big That’s Funny Coming From You thing like girl you’ve had anime twink style since we were in middle school what are you judging for? so you don’t draw them at all? idiot ?

[mmelolabelle]

I really need lucemond fic writers to take into account that

a. Luke is the son of Harwin ‘Breakbones’ Strong, so grown-up Luke? Tall. Hench. Strong as fuck both physically and genetically. Therefore could 100% lift a particularly angry and murderous Aemond over his shoulder and just walk out of the room like “sorry about him folks, nothing to see here”. Like that Rhaenyra/Harwin scene in 1x05 except instead of protecting his love interest from everyone else in the room Luke is protecting everyone else in the room from Aemond

b. Aemond is scary-scary 24/7 but Lucerys is all cute and earnest and fluffy until he’s not and that is infinitely more terrifying? Like Luke is still a Targaryen do not let the bastard discourse fool you. Under the chubby cheeks, adorable hair and self-doubt he is as unhinged as the rest of them.

[rmoony12]

.

People who twinkify Regulus/Sirius and make James/Remus (respectively) big and strong haven't unpacked heteronormativity and still believe - maybe even subconsciously - that every relationship has a 'man' and a woman.' In this essay I will-