#anti john walker

[miabucky]

just read an interview from the director about how we’re apparently supposed to LIKE john walker. THAT was them writing him as likeable. maybe it’s just wyatt’s acting or something but i have never been so put off by a character in my entire life. the villainy just radiates off him. unsettling costume self-righteous attitude violent outbursts literally written like every fascist extremist ever. and they want me to pity him ?? to find him likeable or fucking redeemable?? FFFFHDJNE like i have absolutely no history with that character i have no reason to dislike him other than the fact that he is so deeply unlikable. i know “likeable” is a personal opinion but mostly im concerned for the people that like him. i genuinely cannot comprehend what people saw in him in that show to make them like him. as a person, not as a character. he’s a really cool villain and everything i’m just confused that people are treating him like a victim or a straw man. he used lethal force on civilians. he wanted to use sam and bucky to legitimize his claim to the throne. he sees that shield as a symbol of patriotism to a broken nation, a military, not to people. he feeds into every negative stereotype about captain america that steve refused to bow to. he is the american imperialist that the military wants, that steve would never be because his heart is too full of altruism to have any room for ego. the foundation of captain america is the idea of being a good man. without that, captain america is just another tool for the military industrial complex.

[agentoffangirling]

Someone please tell me where all these John Walker stans came from??

[gay-jewish-bucky]

The MCU loves John Walker because he's representative of the ideals that both the MCU and the American alt-right have always wanted Steve Rogers' Captain America to represent (what additionally cannot be represented by Sam Wilson because he's not a white conservative, nor can it be represented by Bucky Barnes, who the MCU admits they view as irredeemable and unworthy of the shield, most likely for being a "failed man" due to the nature of his victimization), despite being completely antithetical to every value the character was created to fight for.

[shiftingwithmars]

The second he talks in Thunderbolts I’m punching my tv

[transexualpirate]

"john walker was captain america" no. john walker had the shield and a meaningless title. just like steve was still captain america when he was on the run from the government speaking out against something he perceived as dangerous and harmful and taking action to protect his peers, john walker is not captain america despite having the government saying he is and being on their good side and not speaking out against anything they do.

if i hear one more person compare the man who literally refused to leave any man behind to die when he was in the army, saved the universe several times, jumped on a grenade to make sure that no one around him would die, and apologized to the billionaire who repeatedly tried to kill him–

to the man who told two of cap’s closest friends to ‘stay out of his way’, killed an unarmed man who hadn’t even killed his friend, and stole a bottle of the superserum–

i will not hesitate to slap someone.

[iwasmadetobeasoldier]

I'm concerned that when Thunderbolts* comes out, more Walkers will show up..

God, give me strength-

[miabucky]

trying to find good videos about the mcu on the hellscape known as youtube dot com is truly a herculean task. i forget that most viewers of marvel movies are not cool educated queer people and women, as tumblr led me to believe, but rather musty white boys with no media literacy and thus terrible fucking takes. why are there so many videos worshipping john walker as the “actual protagonist” and “most likeable character” and “misunderstood” as if he’s not the pinnacle of white privilege and male ego, the representation of the neocolonial violence and greed and pride of the us military, the antithesis of everything that steve rogers represented. i guess that’s why they’re praising him.

[theforswornelite]

MARVEL STUDIOS: HEY GUYS!!! CHECK OUT OUR NEW FILM COMING 2025!!!

Me: Do you guys have Bullseye?

MS: No

Me: Songbird?

MS: No

Me: Moonstone?

MS: No

Me: Nighthawk?

MS: No

Me: Radioactive man?

MS: No

Me: ...BARON FUCKING ZEMO?

MS: No

Me: ... then what do you have?

MS: You guys Like A.I.?

Me:

[somebucky]

My mom watched an episode of TFATWS with me and as soon as John Walker appeared on screen:

Mom: "whos that?"

Me: "Thats the guy the government thinks should take Steve Rogers place. His name is John Walker."

Mom: "No thats the ugly cap. They can't do that."

My mom is Anti-John Walker. And she doesnt know most of the marvel characters.

sometimes im like ive seen it all from marvel fans and then i see something like ‘john walker defense squad’ and im thrown completely off balance

[captainwidowspring]

On Nico's Ability to Defend Himself

An often-overlooked aspect of Nico's death scene in TFATWS is that there was literally nothing preventing him from thwarting John's attempt to kill him, and keeping it from being a death scene; he just didn't so that there would be a reason for the Captain America title to be stripped from John and given back to Sam. I feel like a major reason why a lot of people don't pick up on this fact, and instead perceive Nico to be defenseless (aside, of course, from the shamelessly manipulative framing) is that in the Siberia incident, the incident Nico's death scene is frequently compared to, Tony, after he lost the upper hand, didn't really get a chance to do much before Steve disabled his suit. It thus didn't stick out too badly when Nico also didn't do much before John attacked him with the shield, even though there was a lot more he could have done. Therefore, let's examine the two situations to see how they are different.

This is how the shield incident played out in Siberia. Near the end of the battle, Tony had managed to gain the upper hand and inflict serious damage on Steve. After Steve refused to stop defending Bucky, Tony prepared to straight up blow Steve out of the bunker and down the mountain: but right before he got the repulsor shot off, Bucky grabbed his leg. Irritated, Tony turned and kicked Bucky in the head with his metal boot. Then, before Tony had the chance to do anything else, Steve grabbed Tony and hoisted him into the air; Tony tried to use the jet packs on his boots to get out of the situation, but too much damage had been inflicted on them at that point for them to be of use, and Steve threw him to the ground. Steve then immediately rushed on top of Tony and punched his face mask three times out of sheer fury, after which he broke the helmet by hitting it twice more with his shield and then tore it off. He subsequently raised the shield, which caused Tony to frantically raise his arms to cover his face, and this allowed Steve to have a clear shot at the arc reactor, which he brought his shield down on and broke.

Now, considering how thoroughly biased Civil War is against Steve, and how much it sought to act like he was the one in the wrong—even though the entire Siberia fight was literally just Tony having a temper tantrum and Steve and Bucky trying to survive it—the creative team certainly wouldn't have minded if Tony had cried out in fear like Nico did, as it would be quite useful for the propaganda efforts. Therefore, there is clearly some reason why he didn't.

And it appears that there are two main reasons for this. The first reason seems to be that everything simply happened too fast. Indeed, the entire incident, from Tony preparing to shoot Steve to Steve disabling the arc reactor, took place in the span of about fifteen seconds. And Tony totally wasn't expecting Steve to grab him; presumably, he assumed that Steve was injured enough that taking his attention off him for a few seconds in order to kick his friend in the head wasn't a big deal. He underestimated the strength that poured into Steve's limbs when he saw Tony so callously abusing Bucky, as well as the fact that Steve is a supersoldier, so he can move really fast when he wants to.

So there was the element of surprise, and there was also the fact that Tony probably would have been a little stunned, both from the impact of being thrown to the ground, and from being hit in the head multiple times. It must, of course, be remembered that Tony was wearing a full-body metal suit, so no actual harm was inflicted upon him, but Steve is a supersoldier, so even with the layer of protection the impacts would certainly have been felt. These factors combined to produce the effect that, when Steve raised his shield, rather than take the time to yell anything, Tony simply prepared himself to face what was about to happen, which he thought would be Steve attempting to end him. But fortunately for him, he was wrong. Steve wasn't trying to kill Tony; Bucky was still alive, so Steve was able to contain his fury enough to refrain from a killing blow, and he hit the arc reactor instead.

Now, let's look at how Nico's death scene played out. After John pursued Nico for a bit, and managed to fend off a concrete trash can that Nico threw at him, he was able to hit Nico with the shield as Nico ran into a square. This forced Nico to stop to keep his balance, which allowed John to hit him again, and this finally knocked him over. Nico then tried to get back up twice; the first time John hit him with the shield again to keep him down, and the second time he put his foot on Nico's chest to pin him to the ground and stop his escape attempts. Then, since he couldn't try to get away anymore, Nico waved his hands and nervously insisted, "It wasn't me." He said this because, given the role he played in Lemar's death, he was well aware of why John might be mad at him specifically, for more than just being a friend of Karli. John, for his part, had been preparing to interrogate Nico about Karli's whereabouts, but this clear falsehood evidently filled him with rage, and he raised his shield in a fury. Rather than make an effort to block the imminent attack, Nico simply repeated, louder, "It wasn't me!" even though it was clear that John was not about to accept his garbage. And then, of course, since Nico wasn't about to actually do anything, the beating with the shield commenced.

Nico just lay there and was obediently killed, even though there was literally nothing stopping him from simply catching the shield and keeping it off his chest. His arms and hands were not at all restrained—indeed, he was waving them around—and unlike John, who had acquired a gash on his head, Nico was completely uninjured, so there wouldn't have been any pain distracting him either. And as we saw earlier, Nico is just as strong as John—he was able to restrain John so effectively that Karli would have been able to easily stab John if Lemar hadn't stopped her—and his evident fear would likely have given him enough strength to cancel out John's rage. So he would certainly have been able to keep the shield off his chest until Sam and Bucky, who appeared shortly afterwards, could save him if they wanted to.

Indeed, Nico didn't save himself even though, as evidenced by the fact that he did actually have a chance to cry out, he was dealing with a much less challenging situation than Tony was. For one thing, John bringing down the shield on Nico's chest was not at all a surprise. After John had pinned Nico to the ground, Nico had time to say, "It wasn't me" before John made any sort of move: and after John registered what Nico had said, he shifted his shield, which had been on his arm, into a two-handed grip, and then raised it. Nico clearly saw this coming; indeed, this is what caused him to shout "It wasn't me" a second time. And John's intentions at that point were obvious, so it's not like what happened with Tony where Tony thought that Steve was going to do one thing but he did another; it was pretty clear where John's shield was going, and this would have been plenty apparent to Nico since terror tends to make time slow down. So he had ample time to catch it.

Additionally, Nico would not have been stunned in the way that Tony was. Tony was slammed to the ground and then received five forceful rapid-fire close-range blows to the head, which is several hard impacts in a short span of time. Nico, by contrast, was hit once with the shield, then was knocked by John to the ground. This was a much shorter distance to fall than the overhead bench-press position that Tony was thrown from, and there were even stairs to break Nico's fall. Thereafter, Nico was hit with the shield again—and he hadn't gotten very far up, so he didn't fall very far back down—and then John thwarted Nico's final attempt to get up by pushing him down with his foot. In addition to the fact that the push was much gentler than getting hit with the shield again would have been, as before Nico hadn't gotten very far up, so he wouldn't have hit the ground that hard.

Therefore, in contrast to Tony, who received six sharp blows pretty much back to back, Nico received three fairly spread out blows—after the first hit with the shield, John had to close the distance between them and wind up again before hitting him a second time to knock him over, and then Nico fell to the ground and started to get back up before he was hit a third time—as well as a kind of shove. Nico thus did not receive nearly as harsh a pummeling as Tony did. And on top of that, he is a supersoldier: so even if his treatment had been rougher, Nico would have a much higher tolerance for pummeling than normal human Tony would.

Hence, Nico would not only have had plenty of time to see what John was doing, but he also would not have had to contend with the disorientation that Tony experienced. There is no excuse for why his only reaction to John's attack was yelling.

And here's what makes the fact that Nico didn't try to defend himself even more ridiculous. Even though Steve's attack was much more rapid, forceful, and unpredictable than John's was, Tony STILL did the logical thing and was ready to try to catch Steve's shield. Indeed, you can actually see a bit of strategy in his response to Steve raising the shield. Tony knew he wasn't strong enough to entirely keep the shield off his face since his suit was failing, so rather than try to stop it from hitting him, he was instead planning to try to grab the shield during its descent in order to slow it down and cushion the blow. As Steve brings the shield down, you can even see Tony open his fingers as he expects to encounter the shield. Nico did not do anything of the sort, he just aimlessly shouted as he passively lay there and waited for John to kill him. But come on! If Tony, who was just a normal human encased in a suit of rapidly failing metal, and who had been completely taken by surprise with a harsh walloping, could make an attempt to stop Steve from killing him (even though, as it turned out, he didn't need to), then Nico, who was a supersoldier, and who had received far less of a thrashing, could definitely have tried (and succeeded) to stop John from killing him. Especially since, unlike Tony, he actually would have been able to completely stop the shield from hitting him.

There is another difference between the two situations that is very interesting, however. Tony, for his part, was well aware that he was acting dishonorably. For instance, a little after Tony began his assault, when Bucky was trying to run away and Tony was intent on pursuit, Steve stood in front of him and said, "It wasn't him, Tony. Hydra had control of his mind." But Tony already knew this, so he simply responded "Move," in a way that clearly indicated that he didn't care and didn't want to hear it. And a short time later, when Tony prevented Bucky from escaping, Steve tried again to get through to him and said, "This isn't gonna change what happened," but Tony replied, "I don't care, he killed my mom." Tony knew that Bucky wasn't to blame for his parents' deaths, and that killing him would not help anything: but since he was angry with Steve for refusing to accept the Accords and all their rights-violations, he saw the revelation as an excuse to attack both Bucky because he knew it would hurt Steve, and Steve himself because Tony knew that Steve would not just stand by while Bucky was being assaulted. He ignored Steve's attempts to reason with him because he figured that he had enough power to be able to do whatever he wanted, and he also correctly guessed that Steve and Bucky would continuously hold back against him, even though they shouldn't have. And because of these things, before Bucky's intervention, Tony had been about to do something that could have quite possibly ended Steve's life. So when Steve regained the upper hand and Tony was at his mercy, Tony was aware that he had no right to ask Steve to spare him, because when he had been in Steve's position, he had been ready to potentially end Steve's life without a second thought. Therefore, he said nothing; his only response was to see if he had enough strength left to hold off Steve.

So Tony, in the face of Steve's attack, didn't yell anything because he knew that what he had done was indefensible: and it is due in part to this modicum of contrition that Steve was able to contain his rage enough to spare him. Nico, meanwhile, had been doing something similarly heinous. He had been actively engaged in trying to kill John because John was Captain America, and when Lemar frustrated the attempt on John's life, Nico was also the reason why John was unable to protect Lemar from Karli's subsequent death-blow. And just like Tony, Nico had been relying on his strength to protect him from repercussions. So what he had done was just as indefensible as what Tony did: but instead of taking the smallest bit of ownership of this, he tried to completely absolve himself of responsibility for what had happened, and this resulted in his downfall. For while John had clearly been intending to just interrogate Nico, the fact that the person who had held him helpless while his best friend was murdered was trying to act like he was not at all responsible for what had happened caused him to lose it, and this resulted in the shield incident. Now, Nico definitely should have made it clear that he was surrendering if he intended to, and even apologized if he genuinely regretted what had happened to Lemar: and again, when the attack did happen he could have easily fended it off. But if he had simply recognized the fact that he was not worthy of John's mercy since he had not been prepared to show mercy to John, and remained silent like Tony did, the shield-attack would never have happened in the first place.

But in any case, as mentioned above, Nico didn't try to defend himself because John needed to kill him, so that the show would have an excuse to take the Captain America mantle from John and give it back to Sam without it seeming too dubious. (Though considering that the incident ended up resulting in Sam and Bucky attacking John for the shield a very short time after he literally lost his best friend, the show completely failed at that.) Not to mention, if Nico had put up a fight, this would have highlighted how much he was still capable of threatening John, and put lie to the show's attempt to act like he was helpless. Particularly since, again, if he had tried to save himself there is no reason why he would not have been successful.

Now, it is important to also remember that Nico was definitely not surrendering, the other widespread misconception about his death scene. He kept trying to fight John until he literally couldn't—he threw a concrete trash can at John while he was running away, and tried to get back up twice after John initially knocked him over, which is not something someone who wanted to surrender would do—and then after John had him pinned, all he did was try to disingenuously absolve himself of responsibility for Lemar's death, rather than trying to apologize or making it clear that he was surrendering. But on top of the fact that Nico wasn't trying to surrender, and refused to own up to what he had done, he was perfectly capable of surviving John's attack when it happened. These things make his death scene, as well as the subsequent reaction to it, completely ridiculous and utterly nonsensical.

[shiftingwithmars]

The fact that there’s a universe where John Walker got a punishment and all that bullshit never happened to Elijah comforts me in ways I can’t explain

[transexualpirate]

oh im definitely afraid. i do think it's quite possible that they'll do exactly that, and pretend john walker was a good guy from the beginning and was just a bit misguided - which is what they did in a few comics comics. and i hate that.

i mean no hate to you or to oneday-23, btw. we can all have diverging opinions and it doesn't necessarily reflect on us as people, and i think it's really cool that you took the time to write this and explain your point of view, i appreciate it. im just elaborating on what i meant in the original post

now, ill be the first to admit im not a connoisseur of john's comics. matter of fact ive actively avoided him. that man pisses me off. not like, say, thaddeus ross (the worse marvel character ever in my opinion) or reed richards or even, sometimes, tony, but god i hate him. im not even saying he's this big villain huge bad guy that needs to be stopped im just saying that i really really fucking hate that guy. i think he got away with far too much already, i think his character arc only made sense (and became a problem) because of his huge ego and his arrogance, i think his "redemption arc", if it even can be called that, was half assed at best, and i wholeheartedly believe that if the character isn't racist then he was created by some extremely fucking racist writers who projected onto him hard. in the comics, that is. in the mcu i think an argument can be made that he was created as a critique and badly interpreted, but idk. still badly done in my opinion. anyways, all that's my opinion, so (i also really fucking hate john's overly patriotic views. like, for instance, steve and sam are patriotic to a point that already deeply bothers me, but there's so much more to their characters so i still love them! i can and do nitpick the character traits i want to focus on because i wouldn't like any marvel character if i didn't lol but if you ignore or even diminish walker's patriotism at all he stops making sense as a character, and that is disturbing to me personally). but that's just me. i am also a bucky lover first and human second - he's been my favorite marvel character ever since i got into marvel years ago, my first comic i actually bought was his, i write about him constantly and im always talking about him. ask anyone that knows me irl, he's so so so important to me, like, to a point where it's honestly unhealthy (the way i am attached to this man would not be approved by any therapist) so seeing a version of him be friends with someone like john walker, someone who in the mcu treated him like nothing but an asset and arrogantly demanded his "help", it would make me angry, ergo the i would not be responsible for my actions joke

it's almost 2024 and i want everyone to know that if they make bucky and walker friends in thunderbolts i will not be responsible for my actions you have all been warned

[justin-hammer-come-home]

Everyone, after seeing the MCU Thunderbolts lineup:

[breckstonevailskier]

Honestly, if anyone was out of line here, it's the Dora Milaje for trying to kill Walker and Lemar because Walker touched one of them.

[bietrofastimoff23]

being a john walker fan is when the only increased activity in the tag consists of disdain&hate for the character.

[sofiadragon]

I'm going to keep my 2 cents short by trying to only talk about 1 scene that is done twice. My opinion in a nutshell: John Walker is not a great guy. He's no hero he's out for glory. He's all the ego of Stark wrapped in false humility.

The scene is Steve smashing the shield into Stark at the end of Civil War, which is re-created when Walker does the same thing to Nico. The mechanics are practically identical, in both cases we see it from the victim's point of view as the final blow is struck, but all the circumstances are different and that's so important.

Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes vs Tony Stark

Steve is putting down a real threat, a man who lost his shit after watching video footage of his parent's deaths. I'm not anti-Tony, but I'm no Tony Stan either. Civil War is a mess of a movie but this sequence at the end shows the ugly bits of the idealistic argument at the beginning. (Manipulation by bad actors is a possibility when working within the system, personal mistakes with no oversight to catch and correct them before they blow up are the risk when operating independently.)

Long story short: Tony was overcome with emotion and flipped his shit, he was not rational and would have killed Bucky. If Steve should or shouldn't have hidden what he learned about Howard Stark's death in CA:WS doesn't matter at that moment, there is nothing Steve can say. Tony's feral. He needs to be put down, and Steve makes sure he's down.

Steve is never out of control, and he concedes the point that his failure to honor his friendship with Howard and his act of putting his personal adjenda ahead of what was right by keeping the murder a secret was part of this when he drops the shield Howard made. So he takes responsibility for his part in this, but he walks away because this isn't all on him. He didn't start the fight, and he doesn't kill Tony. Tony might be down, but he isn't out and he'll be fine in a while. Steve goes as far as he has to, but he is a good man and he stops when enough is enough. The Accords aren't resolved in this movie (that happens in She Hulk, thanks phase 4 for being worse than nothing) but Steve was defending a man who is innocent due to mind control or mental incompetence of the crime of killing the Starks and he is fully justified in defending Barnes on this point. (Just wish this movie's plot lines don't look like my first attempt at cross-stitch with broken threads and a mess of missing bits, like all the human rights violations in the Accords being on the wiki. Would have been great to have Cap mention the violated rights instead of sounding like he is above international law. "Ankle monitors?" Is a line less than 2 seconds long, let Ross steamroll in on the awkward silence and it's 5 seconds of screentime tops for THE TITLE CHARACTER'S PRIMARY MOTIVATION that somehow got cut from the movie.) *Ahem*

Nico vs John Walker

Nico is not a significant threat to John Walker at any point. Nico is not out of control, he isn't armored, at this point he isn't even armed. Walker is the one who has lost his grip here. He isn't listening to what's said, he's just too angry. Heck, this isn't even a fight, not once they are out on the street. Nico doesn't do anything aggressive once they are out of the building. He runs, he falls at the feet of a statue, and he's killed while begging for his life. Walker chases him down like a rabid dog and chops into him without mercy. Nico isn't down, he's dead.

This scene looks like the same scene, but the players are all shuffled despite the guy bringing the sield down waering a Captain America costume. Nico isn't the one who killed Walker's friend Lemar, Karli is, so Walker is actually in Stark's place for this scene. Walker, like Stark, has just watched someone he loved die. Walker, like Stark, is out of control with rage and grief. Walker, like Stark, is after an innocent person who is only associated with the murderer. Karli is the HYDRA analog here, Lemar is Maria Stark, and Nico is Bucky.

Nico is Bucky.

It's so similar on purpose, and the meaning isn't subtle.

Look, phase 4 has a lot of warts and Civil War is the worst pre-Endgame movie full stop. (Thor Dark Worlds is good enough to beat it easily if only because it doesn't need a wiki entry to prop up it's main plotline.) However, even She Hulk, Love & Thunder, and the Loki Series have a truly brilliant scene here and there among the trash.

These two fights in juxtaposition say a whole encyclopedia worth about John Walker's character, none of it good, and are when taken together quite well done. While Tony is only pushed to such irrational anger out of plot contrivance extreme grief over something that he is blindsided by because this movie has tenuous continuity with pervious films, Walker is shown in many scenes to be this way all the time. That is his default from the beginning, while for Steve and Tony this sort of irrational tantrum is the exception. When the video is over Steve at least hopes that Tony, a man of science, will be rational will understand that Bucky wasn't the true villain behind the Stark's deaths and not telling him earlier is therefore a plot hole, Steve does or does not expect Tony to understand, pick a lane, but Steve realizes that this was the worst possible way Tony could find out, since it makes it look like Steve was covering it up intentionally even though he was probably just legitimately too busy or wasn't sure how to bring it up. There is no malice from Steve, and the malice from Tony is (mostly) temporary that continuity problem again, thisbtime with the films that come after, and shrodinger's Accords plotline.

But damn were both scenes good cinema.

Good is not a thing you are. It's a thing you do.

Credit to the original Ms. Marvel comics for that quote

A sentiment that is sadly lost on the current MCU

That quote is perfect 👌

I'm afraid Phase 4's core message is the exact opposite of that. You're good if we frame you as good regardless of your actions. And if we frame you as bad no matter what you do, you will be considered a villain.

Loki is the only one in the series who doesn't do anything wrong, who doesn't commit any crime or who doesn't abuse his power. Mobius and Sylvie murder people and commit awful crimes, but those are swept under the rug while Loki is condemned.

John Walker abuses his power, he murders a surrendering and unarmed man in plain daylight, he's willing to risk the lives of many to get Karli.... but he saves a van. He was "good" all along.

Ikaris betrays his team and kills Ajak but he goes on a tirade about how hard it was for him to know the truth as if Ajak hadn't known it for longer than him and carried the weight with her for years. But hey, he gets a lot of compassion while she gets none. Poor thing, he wasn't all bad.

And sometimes the movies handle things right, like what Wakanda Forever did with Namor, but the fanon misses the point completely and justifies his every action.... surely influenced by the way Marvel is treating a lot of their characters lately.

Dunno, I'd rather have movies that judge actions regardless of 'who is doing what' because that's how you make stories interesting. In the past, Marvel would write imperfect heroes and relatable villains who had a point.... but now the heroes act like villains and the bad guys have more morals than them.... but they're still framed as evil 🤷‍♀️