#and yeah i think young griff is fAegon

[musing-and-music]

About Jaime Lannister and Gregor Clegane

One thing that baffled me when I learned about Gregor Clegane's age is that he's the same (or almost) age as Jaime Lannister.

Gregor Clegane

Jaime Lannister

Both have been knighted prior to the tourney at Harrenhal (281 AC), so at 15 and 15-16 and both have loyalty to the Lannisters. But the similarities stop here.

Jaime is young and hopeful about knighthood, happy to be part of an order such as the Kingsguard before his illusions are destroyed by the reality of the situation.

Gregor is already a violent man by that time (he burns his own brother's face when he's ~11), and keeps being brutal and merciless

Jaime is helpless when he hears Rhaella's cries and his sworn brothers tells him he can't do anything for her

Gregor is suspected of killing his father, sister, and two wives (I don't know when but one after the other), and of course Elia Martell and young Aegon Targaryen

While Jaime protects a city by killing his king, Gregor sacks that same city, then kills the child who could have been the future king

One is sneered at for what's his best act, the other feared but still asked to do the same he already did

And they were the same age

[horizon-verizon]

If Ser Groomer Incelot is Dornish because he was born in the Dornish Marches then so is Barristan Selmy. Let’s use Dorne/Young Griff stans idiot logic, does that mean Barristan is a white-passing brown man ?

Anon is responding to this post.

Yep. It hasn't been revealed where exactly his family's seat, Harvest Hall, is in the Marches in relation to Blackhaven but yes Barristan Selmy 's house seat and family are not Dornish. Canonically, they live in a part of the Dornish Marches.

By those who his family and he interacted with and performed several military feats, the house is a Stormlander one. This is why when you go back to the main books where the background is described and cataloged along with his accomplishments (mainly A Storm of Swords--Jaime VIII), we can infer that his house was not from a Dornish part of the Dornish Marches. As I already said in this post, people who are from the Dornish Marches are "marchers" and if they are lords or nobles they are also called "the marcher lords". And they do not seem to discriminate between those born in Dorne or in the Stormlander/Reach parts of the Marches in nonDorne, in terms of the name designation of "marchers". The jury is out for what Dornish people call those born in the Marches, whether the specific part is on Dorne or out.

Ryan Condal tries to make Criston Dornish (by making as if every person who is born in the Marches is Dornish because of the name). I do not know if Condal is a YGriff or a Dorne stan so much as a guy that made a blunder. There are going to be people who make the same mistake in the fandom and it's good to keep that in mind. It's less excusable, I think, for someone adapting the story into TV and trying to make use of what they think will add to that characters' actions and thought processes. At the same time, IDK how many fans who are Dorne/FAegon stans versus those who made a genuine mistake, so anyone could enlighten me, I'm open. If it is as anon says, with most people who stan Dorne/fAegon and argue Criston is or should be Dornish, then yeah, inconsistent and perhaps hypocritical of them, and this idea is invalid.

[vivacissimx]

Thanks for answering ❤❤ . I agree with you but I feel some non pov side characters are getting so idealised to the point people are getting mad over a single criticism or the fact when you point that they are side characters meant to further a plot for the main ones . The 2 I have noticed that this is happening is with mostly Jeyne p and Aegon ( young griff) . they even will get mad at you over the farya thing and faegon thing despite its just refered to certain plotlines and nothing more .

ahh yeah i don't really see a lot of these conversations (cause i block p casually, unfortunately tumblr has no 'mute user' button). i can't say i've seen jeyne poole be 'idealized,' imo her story deals with the very heavy trauma of predation and how it's often socially condoned in the case of powerful men being the perpetrators. i do think there's a strong meta significance to her being passed off as arya specifically, in the bigger picture, but i do find a ton of value in the jeyne-specific storyline & how it relates to theon/the lineage, if you will, of ramsay's victims

with young griff, yes i see that, the conversations around him often speak quite conclusively whereas for me i see him as a 'jury still out' character wrt having agency/being manipulated/the psychology of convincing himself that he is making choices. maybe it's saying something! but certainly i don't see a King Aegon endgame, he's just doesn't play that immense of a role

[morgenlich]

lol tbh while i don’t entirely buy tyrion as a targ, i don’t not get it…it would tie in nicely to a lot of tywin’s character. however the reason i personally don’t buy it is because i don’t think it ties into tyrion’s character past his childhood love of dragons but i wouldn’t call him especially unique for that (compare him with arya, for example lol). i mean. dragons are cool. i can see westerosi kids having dragon phases akin to our world’s dinosaur phase lol

as for the most ridiculous theory i’ve ever heard, i am going to categorically include any “rhaegar ISN’T jon’s father” theories lmao

yeah barristen is fucking dead lmao i do actually mostly like him as a character but that man ain’t making it more than a couple meereen located chapters at most. young griff is also fucking dead though i am waiting for some kind of greyscale epidemic in westeros…maybe spread by joncon maybe not but. idk between that and everything w shireen, i feel like something is up there. idk that the books will go the show’s route in this regard, though if there’s an epidemic and it gets tied into all the wildfyre still around, well. i won’t be shocked.

as for sweetrobin i think my biggest hot take is that i don’t think he’ll die. or if he does it’ll be a point where like it doesn’t matter whether he’s alive or dead if that makes sense. it’s maybe silly of me (especially after my above speculation re: the greyscale) to say it feels a little TOO foreshadowed but. it feels too foreshadowed. too convenient for littlefinger. something is going to disrupt his plans somehow and with lysa out of the picture i think the vale in general is going to be more volatile than anyone gives it credit for, especially once word of faegon’s landing reaches them.

[electricprincess96]

Pretty sure the Super Hitler was a joke from Lindsay Ellis video, who even goes over how the later seasons ignore those politics(Like Cersei getting away with blowing up the Seven). At that point they set up everything so the politics really do not matter, and how it's obvious Dany will eventually do something that petty and spiteful in the books because Varys actual plotline wasn't cut from the show, nor Tyrion who will feed her worse tendencies to see his siblings dead.

I still don't think it's clever even if it did come from Lindsay Ellis, Hitler was a very particular type of evil that Dany doesn't really embody. But I guess she'll have made the joke for shock value and the joke probably comes across better in spoken word than written down. Still dumb, not everyone who does bad things is Hitler guys 🤦🏻‍♀️

The show was always going to have to cut certain corners when it came to the politics because 1. It's not as visually entertaining to watch and 2. They just aren't as good at writing it as GRRM but specifically where Dany is concerned I'm surprised that people were surprised that Dany ended up going off the deep end cause I've mentioned before the girls not been in a City she hasn't threatened to burn to the ground at least once so eventually she was of course gonna burn a city to the ground.

Yeah in the books it's entirely possible Dany will do much worse because her advisers are less dumb and more... Spiteful. Tyrion is definitely not the type to cry mournfully at Cersei's dead body in the books, the guy will be performing a jig, he'd maybe stop a moment for Jaime but he feels like he's been betrayed by him as well so I wouldn't even expect him to mourn for him very long. Tyrion in the books is a brilliant mind but he's crueller, especially in the latest books after he's been forced into self isolation. Like fuck Tyrion is the one who convinces Young Griff to invade Westeros BEFORE they've had to chance to speak to Dany and win over her support which is only going to result in both Young Griff and Dany clashing in the future when she eventual does make it to Westeros.

This will depend on if Barriston Selmy survives because I feel like he would try to give her genuinely good intentioned advice but I believe he might end up filling part of the Varys role that we did see in the show, because in the books Varys isn't really Team Dany but Barriston is, however I could see him wanting to side with Fake Aegon/Young Griff believing him to be Raeghar's real son and Dany not taking kindly to it. And at first he'd promote a marriage between Griff and Dany but Griff will likely have already married Arianna to get the support of Dorne and while the Faith tolerated the incest marriage of the Targaryn's they didn't tolerate the polygamous ones after Argon the Conquerer and his Sister Wives, Visenya and Rhenys. So that wouldn't be an option so it would then come down to who's going to blink first, and Dany isn't gonna let it be her.

Like in the books Dany will arrive to a Westeros that not only has The Others to deal with, but also Cersei AND Fake Aegon. I wouldn't be surprised if the getting jealous of Jon subplot from the show is a very poorly executed version of her reaction of Fake Aegon. Like many fans have predicted a Second Dance of the Dragons between Dany and Faegon, which is likely how Kings Landing ends up torched in the books, she doesn't necessarily do it because she gets momentary PTSD from the bells, it happens when her and Faegon fight.

Now we could all be totally wrong but I think 1. Dany's descent into "madness" was foreshadowed in the show but very poorly executed and 2. It'll be tied more to the Young Griff plotline in the books because Dany's whole thing is Westeros is her birthright but if Young Griff is who he says he is then he has a better claim than her and that would destroy Dany, but she wouldn't be willing to just step down and accept it she's sustained herself through hardships by the mere fact she is one day going to take back Westeros, she calls herself Aegon the Conquerer with Tits. She has Dragons. She isn't gonna take this lying down she's gonna fight and it's gonna get really ugly, really fast.

[daeneryses]

im sorry i have to rant again

i just cant understand how u can fuck up e v e r y s i n g l e o n e of your characters in one (1) episode

WHAT THE FUCK

god knows 2014 me wanted pol!sansa more than life itself BUT NOT LIKE THIS. she’s supposed to be kind and intelligent and c o u r t e o u s and have more than two functional braincells. she’s not supposed to be LF reborn or ms cersei lannister wannabe.

why is she scheming behind her brothers back. why does she hate daenerys so much. why is she the way she is. WHY IS SHE TRUSTING TYRION. this is the biggest mess i have ever seen. she goes against dany as if the north had more than 12 survivors im sorry but I HAVE TO LAUGH BC DANY STILL HAS (HAD) 1 (2) WHOLE ASS DRAGON(S). like if this was a well written conflict i would be enjoying my Clash of Queens but ts just PURE CLOWNERY BECAUSE THEY NEVER EXPLAIN WHY SANSA DESPISES DANY. SHE ISN’T JUST WEARY OF HER SHE STRAIGHT UP HATES HER. my girl sansa is a smart bitch do u really think she’d want to burn (lol) bridges with the most powerful player atm???THEY NEED TO REBUILD WINTERFELL AND THE WHOLE ASS 12 NORTHERNERS WHO SURVIVED THE AVERAGE LENGTH NIGHT AIN’T GONNA BE ENOUGH. MMAYBE THE UNDEAD DEMONS ARE DEAD BUT IT IS STILL WINTER THEY NEED PROVISIONS (although, to be fair, there aren’t many people left) 

god

i dont even think there’s a single powerful house in the north anymore (besides the starks) like who would even rally to them who would they be ruling over i d o n t g e t i t. 

also wtf is gonna happen to the glovers???? they betrayed their liege lords and nothing’s gonna happen to them??? GUESS WE’LL NEVER KNOW BECAUSE FUCK CONSEQUENCES. CONSEQUENCES ONLY APPLY TO DAENERYS TARGARYEN NOW APPARENTLY.

why is she emulating the worst of LF did she learn nothing? am i in hell? if she thinks jon is such an imbecile (which, i agree!!!) WHY does she want him on the throne. why, all of a sudden, everyone wants jon on the throne? the dude doesnt WANT IT!!! mAyBe thE BeST ruLErS dOnT wANt To rULe yeah well varys how did robert baratheon turned out???? 

god the northern plotline really sucked ass. and i really had hope. i really really did. i should have known the story was fucked up the second they sent sansa to marry ramsey instead of fArya.

ITS ALSO SO FRUSTRATING WATCHING THEM MERGE CHARACTERS TOGETHER 

the whole ass mess we’re about to get with jon and dany is happening solely because they didn’t want to include fAegon. and okay, no biggie, but u cant have ur cake and eat it too. if there is no fAegon u cant have a targbowl. u cant have a golden company. and u should have figured out a way to write cersei out of the story bc by the looks of it fAegon is gonna deal w her in the series. jesus fucking christ. but they couldnt do that could they? which is the reason why we’re 2 episoded away from the grand finale and cersei is still on the throne, the NK (arguably the Great Other) is dead and jon is gonna murder dany. neat. totally not nihilistic. super bittersweet. a+ story telling. IM IN HELL.

Jon and the Young Griff are so....different....how can u even fathom the idea of merging them,,,,when their motivations are so so so so so different. their stories, their motivations, their goals, their upbringing. how much of a dumbass do you have to be to think they could share a storyline.

they also sloppily merged ELLARIA SAND AND ARIANNE MARTELL, with a mix of fucking darkstar in there with the whole “lets assassinate myrcella lol that should work” plan. HOW DID THEY MANAGE TO FUCK THAT UP SO BADLY. DID THEY READ ELLARIA’S SPEECH ABT HOW VENGEANCE DOES NOTHING? HOW SHE WANTED THE SAND SNAKES (the real sandsnakes not....whatever THAT was) TO STOP BECAUSE THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE NEVER ENDS???? IMAGINE INDIRA VARMA DELIVERING THAT SPEECH G*D I WAS ROBBED. but they said “hey, u know what’d be neat? having a deceased prince’s paramour and his three bastard daughters overthrow an ancient noble house and face no repercusions whatsoever from the people (who canonnically loved oberyn) yeah that sounds h a r d c o r e”. house martell is dead and so am i. 

and now, arguably The Worst Of Them All: they merged arya and lady stoneheart. fucking stoneheart dude. s t o n e h e a r t. somehow, zombie!cat who is hell bent on revenge and living, sentient arya stark share the same goals. dont get me wrong i’ve been a little bit of a hypocrite bc i sure as hell cheered when arya obliterated house frey. we got that, but at what cost? i’d rather not have that scene and have a human arya stark who is not obsessed with murder and can grow as a character and, u know, be a fucking human being.

i need a whole post to rant about the arya and stoneheart merge

this has been rough bc throughout the years i’ve seen them butcher storylines and fuck things up but i always wanted to think that it was for the best. the show is not the books, after all. george doesn’t have a budget or deadlines, he can take his sweet time (as he has been doing) and build incredibly complex plotlines and keep adding characters and its okay. d&d dont have that. but i dont think its fair to monumentally fuck characters up the way they have been doing.

i dont mind the divergence from the books, i think they are way too rich for any visual media, the plotlines are too intrincate, and d&d had to end the story one way or another. they could tell their own story, it didn’t have to live up to the grand finale of ASOIAF, but they had to respect their audiences. 

thorughout the years, whenever i saw what they were doing i was sure they had a reason. that they had an ending planned and all the cuts were made because those particular aspects of the story didn’t matter in whatever ending they had planned. but this season (particularly last episode) has proven me wrong. they never knew wtf they were doing, they just want to shoot cool scenes and that’s it. and now we’re gonna get a half-assed ending that they have only now started to foreshadow and hint at. because they never knew wtf they were doing.

THESE TWO IDIOTS REALLY TOOK ONE OF THE RICHEST PIECES OF FANTASY LITERATURE EVER WRITTEN AND CRUSHED IT THE FUCK DOWN.

EVEN WORST. THEY TOOK THEIR OWN STORY, THE STORY THEY HAD BEEN HINTING AT, AND TORE IT THE FUCK DOWN. 

im so mad u have no idea

[occupyvenus]

One point (plus some extra ones) on the Ashford theory and Jonsa

At this point most people will already have heard about this little theory, but let me recap the main points: In the novel “The Hedge knight”, the first book of “The Tales of Dunk and Egg” our two title characters are present for the tourney hold by Lord Ashford for his daughters name day. The tourney starts with five champions that would/could each be replaced by a man who defeats them in the joust. We only know about the final champions of the first day, since our POV character is in the dungeons during the second and the tournament is prematurely ended. The last constellation of champions we know about looks like this: 

Lyonel Baratheon

Leo Tyrell

Tybolt Lannister

Humfrey Hardyng

Valarr Targaryen

Which shows an eerie resemblance to Sansa’s suitors so far: 

Joffrey Baratheon

Willas Tyrell

Tyrion Lannister

Harry Hardyng 

??? Targaryen ???

Prompting the idea that Sansa might be betrothed to a Targaryen next. As every reputable asoiaf-fan will tell you, this might mean nothing at all (because getting 4 out of 5 right is a very, very low rate of correlation, those are puny 80% and the inclusion of the rather unimportant house Hardyng just ... doesn’t mean anything. That’s .. just a coincidence. And Grrm really isn’t the kind of author who thinks things through.) or that it might point towards Sansa being betrothed to Young Griff Aegon Targaryen next (In which case, 4/5 seems to be a reasonable amount of similarity). But in no way could it be Jon because, as with everything Jonsa-related, people are bending over backwards (their poor spines) to come up with reasons why this this can’t  p o s s i b l y  be a hint at the delulu ship. Basically, as long as you are talking about Young Griff it’s a nice, interesting theory, but if you try to apply it to Jon, it suddenly becomes the crackiest crack out there. Of course, makes sense. 

The most common argument goes something like this: “What matters is the surname they are known as. Duh. Joffrey counts as the Baratheon even though he’s a Lannister. Duh. Or rather a Waters or a Hill. Duh. And Jon would count as s a Snow. Duh. Not a Targaryen. Duh. It’s not about their secret, real name. Duh. But the one they go by. Duh. If it even means anything, it has to be Aegon-fAegon Targaryen. Duh. Who just like Joffrey, is known as a Targaryen even though he’s probably not really one. Duh. It’s Valarr Targaryen, not Valarr Snow. Duuuuuh #reaching LOL”

I assume that this counterargument makes sense if you deliberately choose any framework that excludes Jon. You can of course work with an arbitrary “What are they called when Sansa first met them?” or “What are they called for the most part of the series?” or “What kind of variation of their last names best suits me to eliminate Jon as an option?” but “What are they called when they were promised to marry Sansa?” strikes me as the more logical possibility. Since it is, after all, .. about that very thing.

So let’s look at who Sansa actually gets betrothed/married to ... She is promised to Joffrey “Baratheon” (even though he isn’t actually one), to Willas Tyrell, Tyrion Lannister, Harrold “Hardyng” (even though he’s supposed to take on the name Arryn once he ascends as Lord of the Vale) and since Sansa wouldn’t get engaged/married to her supposed half-brother Jon Snow, but to her cousin Jon (or whatever) Targaryen ... I would say it fits the pattern just fine. It fits perfectly even. This interpretation also eliminates any issues that come with Joffrey being the “Baratheon” champion and since at least three out of five names do indeed fit perfectly without question, I really see no reason to try extra hard to discredit it. She wasn’t betrothed to Joffrey Waters or Hills or Lannister, but to Joffrey ... Baratheon. Just as she wouldn’t be betrothed to Jon Snow or Stark, but Targaryen. 

We can’t be completely sure whether or not Jon’s birth name will also be “Targaryen” in the books as it is in the show, or whether he will actually use the name but there is a good chance that it is and that he will in some form, so the possibility remains. And since none of us knows with absolute certainty what’s going to happen we are all just working with possibilities here. And since the show has confirmed R+L=J and had him be a trueborn Targaryen, I do think we have a good shot at things looking similar in the books. Not exactly, but pretty similar. 

Extra point one: The one instance where the ashford champions and Sansa’s suitors don’t seem to match is the absence of an Arryn-champion. Lysa also intended to marry Sansa to Robert Arryn so ... why doesn’t that match? Well, one could say that this debunks the entire theory, that they don’t have to match perfectly, that 5 out of 6 (or at least 4 out of 5 at this point) is good enough, but there is one detail that sets Robert apart from the other suitors: He never actually knew about the betrothal. Joffrey knew, Tyrion knew, we can safely assume that Willas knew, Harry knows ... but Robert was never told about it. He can’t be a champion if he never even knew that he was in the race. In all other cases both parties were aware of the engagement. In this case, one was not. 

Extra point two: None of those champions would become “the” champion since they were supposed to choose the queen of love and beauty together and since the tourney was ended ahead of time, we don’t know if they would have been the final champions anyway but ... isn’t it still a peculiar coincidence that the last five champions we know about ... match Sansa’s suitors so nicely? Could it be coincidental? Well, yeah. That’s the thing with interpreting potential foreshadowing before a series is finished. You can never be 100% sure whether or not something is intentional or not. But it seems to me that nothing is seen as a mere coincidence when it comes to Grrm unless it could be used in any way to support Jonsa. Then it suddenly is. Must be. Indisputably. Just a fun little observation I found was worth mentioning. 

Extra point three: While the arguments “the tourney was never finished so Sansa would never actually marry and stay married to any of the champions” and “the five champions were equal in status, there wasn’t one “winner”, so all of Sansa’s suitors will have the same “status” with none of them being “endgame”” are the most logical that are brought up in this discussion, I would also like to point out that the exact nature of Sansa’s relationship with the five suitors haven’t been too consistent either. Not all of them were simple betrothals since she did end up marrying Tyrion (even if the marriage was unconsummated and will most likely be annulled). Sansa’s betrothal to Willas is never official, only a secret plot between her and the Tyrells. The one to Harry is technically arranged between him and Alayne Stone and differs from the others in that aspect. We also don’t really know how that will move forward yet either. Her engagement to Joffrey however was official, agreed upon by both her and his father. There is some variation, you see. One was only a promise, one an official betrothal, one went as far as the actual wedding and we don’t really know how her engagement to Harry will develop. I’m only going to speculate that it will no end with a happily ever after for various reasons that I don’t want to get into here. Also, if we assume that Sansa will go through all five ... at least the first four kind of do have to be cancelled in one way or another because she simply can’t marry more than one guy at a time. All five simply can’t be #endgame. This does not prove that the last one will be, but neither does it prove the opposite. If the previous four wouldn’t have ended at some point ... there wouldn’t even be more than one. She can’t end up being married to all of them and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that the last one might break this pattern because it’s literally the only one that could break this pattern. She can’t end up with number two if there are still three betrothals waiting to happen. And since the five champions were fighting simultaneously, while Sansa’s betrothals happen one at a time ... the pattern isn’t exactly the same anyway. The five champions can all be champions at once but not all five suitors can be engaged/married to her at the same time. Just doesn’t work. 

Does this mean that Jon will be the last champion to 100%? Does that mean that it will be endgame to 100%? Or that the Ashford theory even has any connection to Sansa’s suitors/fiancees/husbands at all to 100%? No, of course not. But I’m tired of seeing the possibility dismissed with flawed arguments that only make sense if you go out of your way to reassure your own bias.