#and this is why they're my favorite cr party

[utilitycaster]

You have been watching CR so much longer than me, and I'm curious to know your take on TV Show Canon interfering with or replacing Live Play Canon? On the latest 4sd, Sam mentioned that they're sort of in a schrödinger's Canon, where in one instance the show and campaign have two opposing cannons and they get through it by not directly addressing one or the other. The example he gave was Highbearer Vord, who was an old man in campaign 1 and a woman in the show, whom Matt referred to by name or as 'they' in campaign 3.

Personally, I've never been precious about adaptations changing or ommitting things, and I didn't care about the change from the campaign to the show, but for some reason, the show changing the campaign gives me pause. I also personally love the show! Campaign one was my favorite, especially the chroma conclave arc, and I love the tv show just as much, so I don't know why I would be precious about one over the other? I think maybe I'm worried about changes retroactively impacting the campaign because I already saw and loved the campaign as it was and I don't want it to change, whereas the show is currently being created and so any changes or adaptations just feel like their own thing that I get to see unfold.

The change I mentioned is very small and doesn't really impact much, I'm just wondering what your preference would be for this practice in general! I think that the cast mentioned that some changes will be made to the beginning of the Mighty Nein's story for the upcoming show. In a hypithetical future campaign, if someone mentioned the M9, would you prefer it to be in line with the campaign or the tv show, would you prefer if it was vague like Vord, or is it dependent on what the changes are?

For me it would be dependent on the scale of the change and what it is. Honestly, for Vord I don't even find it in conflict in the present campaign (ie, in 843 PD); while obviously Vord's gender is different between the canon of Campaign 1 vs. the Legend of Vox Machina and those are taking place as two versions of the story in the same time, I just assumed that in 843 PD Vord was figuring some shit out re: gender and pronouns. (I'd also add that Vord's description during Campaign 1 itself varied wildly; Matt's changed character pronouns before in the past and I don't know if it's been deliberate or if he forgot but it's not a big deal).

I think if we're talking about scenes that were not visible in the campaign and were expanded upon in TLOVM (eg: getting to see more of the Briarwoods or the Chroma Conclave plotting without Vox Machina present), treating them as canon within Campaign 3 is fine; honestly those probably were canon in Matt's notes anyway, just unseen. Small things that aren't plot critical - changing a character's gender or appearance, for example - are also fine by me.

The issue arises if we get into actual plot conflicts - for example, the party splitting during the Feywild and Westruun arcs in TLOVM vs. Scanlan and Grog being present in the Feywild in canon. In that case, resolving the two is not possible and I don't care for attempts to make it so. I don't generally care for attempts to justify a cast mistake or canon contradiction and make it all lay flat when the answer sometimes is just "this is improv and they forgot", and this feels similar. Like...if Kamaljiori were to show up in Campaign 3, that would be valid, because he doesn't die in Campaign 1 and does in TLOVM, and when we're watching the streaming campaigns we should defer to campaign canon. I don't think it's fair to Campaign 3 to try to play it with an eye to animated adaptation, so any ripples from that can be addressed if an when they come up. But for stuff like Vord's gender, as long as you get the presence and the vibe right, details can be altered. The same, presumably, will be true for mentions of the Mighty Nein if there is an Exandrian-set Campaign 4.

For what it's worth, that is what I expect when the cast mentions changes to the adaptation as well. Like...look, if I'm wrong about this there will be other discussions to be had, but I think the idea that Molly won't die in the Mighty Nein adaptation is a rather desperate and unrealistic one since that sort of derails the entire rest of the campaign both plot-wise and thematically. Fine for AU fanfic, though I'm personally uninterested, but a poor adaptational choice. But changes like splitting the party between the Feywild and Westruun, or Grog becoming weakened, or Vax communing with the Raven Queen a little earlier and at a smaller temple, or Vex facing Saundor alone, all maintain the core vibes and themes while dealing with time constraints and letting Pike be more present. If someone were to ask Vex point-blank "was Scanlan there when you fought the guy who had that cool bow you're carrying" in Campaign 3 I think the answer should be "yes"; but that's not actually important. What's important is that Vex faced a guy who had been consumed by bitterness and grudges for a weapon that she ultimately carved the word for "forgiveness" into as a personal reminder. An adaptation should retain what's actually important to the story, but changing what hangs on the same fundamental fixed skeleton is fine.

[crescent-moon-mollymauk]

Still thinking about Ashton becoming a hero and how much it makes my heart ache that we never got to see Mollymauk grow as a person.

Molly was obviously a hero of sorts before he even joined the Mighty Nein, but he still has so many similarities to Ashton. For two people that would probably find the other grating if they were to meet, they're so goddamn similar. It was their strange but strong moral compasses that endeared both of them to me so quickly. I think about Taliesin's quote (that I'm probably butchering) from an old Talks episode, one of Molly's core philosophies was "Don't give a fuck about what other people think. But *do* give a fuck about other people." It's so very Ashton. Molly may have been much flashier, but Ashton and Mollymauk are practically two sides of the same coin. A coin they refused to steal from the pockets of those who actually needed it.

Their similarities really just make me ache thinking about the ways that Molly could have grown too. Because as much as I love him, Molly of course was never perfect, no one ever is, but I would have loved to see him grow to better understand those around him. In one of CR's con panels a fan asked what Molly would've thought about Veth's dilemma, settling down with her family that she had worked tirelessly to protect versus continuing her life of adventures. Taliesin answered that Molly wouldn't have seen the point in Veth going back to her past. Molly was never interested in who he was before, why would anyone else want to return to a former life? Especially one as 'boring' as family life. That answer really stood out to me for two reasons. One, it reminded me that as lovable as Molly was, he was still an asshole, and Tal's favorite characters to play are ones that think they are right about everything. It rubbed me the wrong way because I had romanticized the tiefling a little too much. Never meet your heroes, kids. Two, I realized that this would have been Molly's response given his personality at his passing. Would he have given a different answer if he had lived and continued to grow with the party, then thought about Veth's dilemma at the same time as everyone else? Of course there's no way to truly know. Maybe Molly would've stayed stagnant in that way. After all, Molly was Taliesin's attempt at playing a character that had no goal, if I recall correctly.

However, I doubt Ashton would have guessed he would be accepting his occupation as possible "legendary hero" when the campaign first started, or even within the first 30 episodes.

Molly started as both a hero and a legend, but never desired more than a little bit of attention and the satisfaction of the deed. Unaffiliated with the past. Ashton was never a hero. They were the by-product of a cautionary tale they didn't even remember enough about to tell. Weighed down by his past, whether he wanted to admit it or not. They wanted answers.

As Ashton begins to find what he's looking for, I can't help but wonder if Molly could have found something to look for. Something to seek. Whether it be the mysteries of his past or the true desire for a future. Who could Mollymauk Tealeaf have become?

[rosemarydisaster]

Look, I have opinions. Again.

I know we all have our favorite campaign and I know a lot of people favor strongly the Campaign they started with (VM is the best, sue me). But if you don't acknowledge these biases you end up saying ridiculous shit like "Campaign 3 sucks" or "the new campaign moves too slow". Because let me tell you, you're objectively wrong.

I have a bias towards Vox Machina. It's the one that got me into CR and it's the one that feels the most like a home game. But I have to say, Kraghammer is a really bold way to start and that's putting it kindly. No cool settings or lovable side characters for quite a few episodes. Just a straight up dungeon crawler with Kima and Clarota. And the first Vasselheim visit is messy. I love Kashaw and Zara (they are great) and it establishes a lot of lore, but come on. Separating the party when you're still getting to know them is rough. Hell, they even change things with the cast! There's a reason why a lot of people just skip to the Briarwood arc. I love Vox Machina and I've watched it from beginning to end, but come on Campaign 3 it's miles above it when it comes to first chapters.

Campaign 2, although I adore it from the bottom of my heart, consists of a bunch of arcs loosely tied together with chewing gum and dreams. I feel like it doesn't feel like a party until Molly dies. Which is sad, because he's a great character, but his death was what truly elevated the party from "we stick together because it's fun and convenient" to "I would die for these people". The first ten chapters are not as rough as Vox Machina's (see? I can criticize my favorite campaign) but they are nowhere near as interesting as the third campaign. It's pretty standard "go here, solve this village problems, have some money". The characters are charismatic enough to carry that shit, but don't compare it to the amount of world building, character meeting that campaign 3 does while using less cliché plothooks. Both campaigns start doing mercenary work, but here we see them solve misteries and follow a trail between jobs trying to connect the dots instead of linearly solving unrelated problems.

I understand that not having a party name yet might be getting on some people's nerves. Both VM and MN had their names by the tenth episode, but you have to understand they are the "exception". Most D&D parties take a shit ton of time to come up with a proper name or never actually bother, in fact Vox Machina renamed themselves (in pre-stream they were the S.H.I.T.S. and at some point they changed it). But you know something both of those campaign's lacked on their first episodes? A fully present Ashley Johnson giving her comedic best.

Look, you can prefer a different campaign, you can even dislike this campaign. But don't pretend it is due to some objective truth when it's just nostalgia for past campaigns and needing time to adjust. These people have been professionally playing Dungeons and Dragons for years, and this campaign is the result of all that experience coming together. On the production side and on the storytelling side. There's a reason why people find it more difficult to star with VM than MN. They took their experience in VM to make MN more compelling, and they streamlined the bad shit that dragged down the first 20 episodes of VM. Now they've done the same for the third campaign.

I want to touch on the "this is a joke character". When VM first aired, people though Scanlan, Tary and Grog were joke characters. When MN first aired people thought that Jester and Nott were joke characters. I understand why people have trust issues when it comes to Travis, after all, his first character wasn't permanent. But just because a character may leave, that doesn't turn them into "joke characters". That would imply that they're just a meme, when both Bertrand and Chetney have already had a few heart to heart moments with other characters and developed through their interaction with the group. Calling all characters "a joke" feels quite mean giving they're probably just whatever the cast felt would be nice and fun to play for the stream. Give them a chance, they'll grow on you.

[utilitycaster]

god yeah this is specifically about the fanon version of imodna but applies to SO much throughout fandom but the specific feeling of enjoying The Thing that is popular in fandom while At Best disagreeing with the fanon interpretation of it is so exhausting. and even for things outside of shipping! like molly was my "favorite" character in the sense of "i can't wait to see what this fucked up awful funky little guy does next" and then i dipped my toes into fandom (and fic, especially) and was like. "oh. these people who call him their fave are living in a different reality. cool i guess." and that happens in every fandom, i know, but i swear it's endemic to cr in a way that i haven't seen in other fandoms i really wanna know WHY that is (or if you agree at all! it's difficult to find folks who Disagree With Popular Fanon but are still vocal lmao). i have a few guesses but my major one would be that with there being So Much Content it's very easy to zero in on the moments you feel like "support" whatever your understanding is while disregarding the 3.95 hours per week of context that sandwich any one moment. only partially-related but i think with laura characters specifically, i would say she's had the most consistent run of characters that are, at least at first glance, approachable - like obviously they're all Fucked Up (as in like. traumatized etc, not Evil Incarnate) but you have to be willing to Dig and ascribe "negative" traits to see just how deep and complex that Fucked Up-ness runs, and when you already believe you understand her mindspace that's a lot harder! and by "approachable" i do mean like. in a literary-criticism "easy to extrapolate motivations/characterization and get in the headspace of" way, not necessarily a friendly bubbly way, especially compared to other party members (and ESPECIALLY in c2, where jester was Both definitions of approachable). but by the time that complexity is really showcased, that surface approachability has infected fanon to the point where her characters are most likely to be used as an audience surrogate - and the AUDIENCE has no agency in the campaign, so laura's characters don't "get" to have any, either. anyways rounding this off with a general thank you for being willing to Put Your Thoughts out there, it really helps to know that like. no, i'm not somehow managing to completely misread a situation/characterization/etc and everyone else somehow Gets It lmao

I think you hit it square on the head here on why this can be super pronounced for Critical Role:

There is tons of content which is very easy to cherrypick

It's ongoing and things can take weeks or months in real time to resolve giving plenty of time for headcanons that build on headcanons that build on headcanons and become solidified in people's minds before the foundation collapses.

It's a pretty massive time commitment to rewatch

The weekend after an episode airs, a lot of people cannot access the show again until it's posted to YouTube so again, fanon can flourish and it's hard to show that canon debunks it

The lines between cast and character can become blurred quite easily; several cast members stay in character voice even when announcing combat actions, and they chat OOC or look at each other as friends during the show in a way that can very easily be taken out of context

Laura specifically does tend to play characters who are in fact quite rigidly controlling their image and emotions, and people fall for the mask and project onto it, and then when it slips and the character expresses a feeling, people get Big Mad.

Anyway, glad you enjoyed me being really fucking pissed off; as indicated I have just decided this campaign to take a spiked bat to bad fanon, and I am very excited for what comes of this in the actual story.

[rosemarydisaster]

I actually love the CR3 party, and now that I have some time I'll try to articulate why. Also, At the end I might add a few encouraging words for those of you who are not yet feeling the party. Not my experience this campaign, but trust me I see you:

*spoilers up to cr3 ep3 below*

Imogen I was more on the fence about, but after this episode she's starting to grow on me. At first she seemed a bit bland by comparison but I'm finding her whole thing quite fascinating. It has quite a few interesting ramifications and I want to see how they explore them.

F.C.G. is super cute and I think the comedic duo they form with Ashton is gold. As the rest of the fandom, can't wait for Sam to rip my heart out of my chest with this little robot guy. I think they have a lot of potential for both party bonding and party conflict. Anyways, a treat.

Ashton is just wonderful. I like their dynamic of assertive and we'll adjusted menace to society. His attitude of "have any of you children ever crimed? Would you like some pointers?" They have a shit ton of mystery around them and I can't wait to find out. Also, barbarian Ashton means it's less likely that Taliesin will have his character snatched too soon.

Laudna is super funny to me and I'm having such a blast theorizing about her between Thursdays. I can't wait for Marisha to just destroy all of my headcanons (or maybe validate them, who knows). Her dynamic with Imogen is really sweet and I enjoy watching the cast interact with her (with the whispers and stuff)

Orym is my man. I just love his quite sense of humor, the way he balances his morals and naivete with the world he lives in...He might be one of my fav characters honestly. Orym just oozes comfort! The mini exu party also have a wonderful dynamic with one another and I want to see how he opens up to the others! All in all, very solid character, don't really get the whole "calling him boring" stuff.

Fearne is unhinged and I'm with her every step of the way. Ashley Johnson is just peak comedy gold for me. Just, the sweet little voice with the chaos god level shenanigans she gets into...man, it's my cup of tea. I think she's great as a party player because although she doesn't seem to care that much for the plot she just loves interacting with everyone in the group. Specially loved her interactions with Bertie.

Dorian is probably my favorite or my second favorite character. I pray to the CR gods that he's a permanent addition to the table. Sure, more players make things a bit more chaotic, but I just like him too much. The exu dynamic is one of the things I like most, and I just really love bards. They're my favorite class and I like how Robbie plays them. He's funny, but very well mannered and outright a deconstruction of the bard stereotype at times. Seeing a Charisma 20 player play a high charisma character is always great.

Bertrand was just perfect. He came and went, staying every second in his peak. He was funny, he was mysterious, he was tragic and he was oh so lovable despite (or maybe because) it all. I think he died at a perfect point, the right push for the party from "yeah, solving this would be cool and we get money" to "This is personal now". I knew he wasn't forever so I enjoyed him while I could. I'm excited for the actual character but, until then, well played Travis Willingham.

I might change my mind though the campaign and maybe the characters won't live to this new expectations, but I'm fine with that too. I'm just really surprised of how much I'm liking them this time around. As a og VM fan, it always took me a while to like all the characters. Like, maybe I'd had a few I immediately like and the others slowly grew on me. I found Beau a bit annoying at first but she was one of my favorites by the end, same with freaking Scanlan.

My recommendation for old CR fans, specially those that only watched MN, is to give them time. And I mean time. Not every character will show their true colors at the start. Maybe the ones you dislike now might actually turn into your favs for the same reasons you used to hate them. If it's truly not that enjoyable for you, then there's a lot of other podcasts about D&D. Trust me, you don't owe this show anything, you can just leave whenever. But if you're enjoying the show, just not so much the characters, don't worry too much about it. With 8 players, we've barely had any time with each individually.